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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 11 Jun 2009

Special Report No. 10 of Comptroller and Auditor General: Chapter 6.

Mr. Frank Ryan (Chief Executive Officer, Enterprise Ireland) and Professor Frank Gannon (Director General , Science Foundation Ireland) called and examined.

We are looking at the 2007 accounts for Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland, as well as chapter 6 of Special Report No. 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee, and the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I would like to welcome Mr. Frank Ryan, chief executive officer of Enterprise Ireland and I ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Frank Ryan

I am joined by colleagues, Ms Julie Sinnamon and Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin, executive directors, and Mr. Paddy Hopkins, manager of the corporate services division.

I would also like to welcome Professor Frank Gannon, director general of Science Foundation Ireland, and I call on him to introduce his officials.

Professor Frank Gannon

I am accompanied Mr. Mattie McCabe, director, Dr. Graham Love, head of strategy and programme implementation, and Mr. Paul McEneaney, manager of the financial section.

We also have officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and I call on them to introduce themselves.

Mr. Rory McCluskey

I am Rory McCluskey and I work at the Enterprise Ireland desk.

Mr. Aidan Hodson

I am Aidan Hodson and I work in the office of science, technology and innovation. I deal with Science Foundation Ireland.

We also have an official from the Department of Finance.

Mr. Barry O’Brien

I am Barry O'Brien and I am in charge of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment Vote at the Department of Finance.

You are all very welcome. I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to introduce the 2007 accounts for Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland.

Mr. John Buckley

Enterprise Ireland operates under a regional structure. It has nine offices around the country and maintains a network of offices around the world as well. Including its investment in enterprises by way of shares, which is capitalised on its balance sheet, Enterprise Ireland spent €305 million in 2007. Of that money, €185 million went on providing various forms of direct support to industry. The largest element of the industry support was incurred in science and technology development, which accounted for €114 million across all of its expenditure areas in 2007. Two areas where the spend was small in 2007 had given rise to a much increased spend in 2008. There was a 2008 spend of €25 million under the dairy investment fund, which is up from €3 million in 2007. The transfer of financial responsibility for the 35 county enterprise boards to Enterprise Ireland from September 2007 had its first full year impact on the 2008 accounts, when the spend was €34 million.

Science Foundation Ireland had total costs of €165 million in 2007 and paid out €157 million in research assistance in that year. This assistance is focused on research in the areas of biotechnology and information and communications technologies, as well as supporting general disciplines to the extent of €26 million under a research frontiers programme. Research projects normally extend over a number of years. They are vetted by an external panel of experts and are subject to mid-term reviews.

The foundation, which was established in 2003, sought from an early stage to put a computer system in place to manage the applications process. Chapter 6 of Report No. 10 outlined the situation where full value was not derived from a spend of €383,000 on developing such a computer system, which is known as the awards management system. That system was intended to manage the submission of research proposals, the evaluation process involving external assessors, the award process and the recording of financial and project performance. The system was designed to be web-based, allowing for external reviewers to interact with the foundation from remote locations.

The audit concerns, which are set out in Special Report No. 10, included the fact that the system was inadequately specified, with scope and specification changes causing the cost to more than double. The scope drift had implications for maintenance costs, which were set as a percentage of the base solution cost and rose in line with the scope increase. If the full scope cost had been ascertained from the beginning, it would have required EU wide tendering. Project management was hampered by weak project governance, the absence of a single project owner and the acceptance of a system before testing was completed. Inevitably in such circumstances, the project delivery was delayed. Ultimately, much of the spend is non-effective in that all of the envisaged processes, except the initial submission of research proposals, are dealt with outside the system, using either paper-based systems or alternative data-based systems. There is an ongoing maintenance cost for elements that are not used.

That report dealt with matters that pertained up to 31 December 2006. The 2007 accounts for both bodies received clear audit reports in the year.

Mr. Frank Ryan

I wish to thank the Chairman and committee members for the opportunity to outline Enterprise Ireland's annual report and accounts for 2007 and contribute to the committee's work. In presenting the annual report and accounts for 2007, I will start by making a short statement outlining the key results achieved in pursuit of the agency's development objectives, including the conclusion of Enterprise Ireland's strategy "Transforming Irish Industry 2005-2007".

The challenging strategic targets set out in the strategy were designed to drive the growth in capability and success of Irish enterprise. These targets have been achieved in full. In the context of current economic pressures, achieving these benchmarks has delivered an indigenous base which is more capable than ever before of meeting global challenges, such as the one we now face. This is an excellent performance, which is due to the ambition, commitment and determination of Irish companies to compete successfully in international markets. In 2007, Enterprise Ireland client companies recorded €1.445 billion in new export sales, achieving a third successive year of strong export growth, bringing total new export sales over the 2005-07 period to €4.419 billion. Total export sales recorded in 2007 by Enterprise Ireland-supported companies was €13.181 billion. As a result, more Irish companies than ever before are building strong, sustainable positions in the international marketplace.

Direct expenditure in the Irish economy by agency assisted Irish-owned companies in 2007 was 11% of GNP. Enterprise Ireland clients directly spent an estimated €19.6 billion in the economy, with over €9 billion being spent on materials, €4 billion on services and €6 billion on payroll in 2007. Additionally, these companies sourced the majority of their materials and services in Ireland. The value added by Irish client companies reached over €14 billion in 2007, up from under €9 billion in 2000. Over the same period, value added per person employed increased to €99,700 from €57,400 in 2000.

Enterprise Ireland client companies had employment of 153,670 in 2007, representing a net gain of 1,321 jobs. Of the total number, 70% was spread throughout regions outside Dublin, delivering strong economic impact to communities all over Ireland. It is estimated that well over 100,000 jobs are indirectly supported in the economy due to these businesses. Global and domestic conditions have conspired to result in a net loss of jobs in 2008. While this is the case, the overall objectives of the 2005-07 strategy were to help transform Irish companies into market-focused and innovation-driven businesses across all regions and sectors, to increase their exporting capability and to develop a highly competitive, self-sufficient, world-class enterprise structure, which delivers sustainable jobs.

The strategy set out five challenging targets to support the development and growth of Irish companies. Measured primarily by new export sales, the key strategic targets were in the areas of start-up activity, company research and development spend and productivity improvements. With regard to exports, the ultimate intended impact of all Enterprise Ireland initiatives is to create new export sales. Key to all client interventions is the potential export sales to be secured, either immediately or in the future. The answer to the economic challenge we now face is a return to export-led growth which drove the economy at the beginning of the boom. Importantly, more indigenous enterprises than ever before are regularly exporting to international markets and in 2008 Irish enterprises grew their exports even in the downturn. These companies are targeting markets thought barely accessible to Irish enterprise heretofore, such as Brazil, India and China, as well as our established markets, which will help secure economic prosperity in the time ahead.

With regard to industry-led research and innovation, due to clients taking up the research and innovation agenda driven forward by Enterprise Ireland, there were significant achievements against two further strategic targets in 2007, which were related to increasing the number of Irish companies engaged in research and development. In 2005, we set out to increase the number of companies carrying out meaningful research and development expenditure — in excess of €100,000 per annum — to 617, and to increase the number of companies engaged in significant research and development — greater than €2 million per annum — to 42. In 2007, some 624 companies each invested over €100,000 in meaningful research and development and 42 invested over €2 million in significant research and development projects. In 2007, we approved €59.6 million in support of in-company research and development projects. It is imperative that Ireland continues to focus on promoting the level, quality and commercial applicability of all research and development undertaken, ensuring that industry leads the response to rapid changes in customer needs. Furthermore, our universities and institutes of technology are keenly focused on delivering a competitive, knowledge-led economy. The research that is being carried out is delivering commercial benefit to Irish companies throughout Ireland, with Enterprise Ireland's support, through technology transfer, spin-out of high potential start-ups, collaborative research networks and innovation vouchers.

With regard to world-class productivity and management development, productivity and management capability improvements are essential in helping Irish companies to reach the standards needed to compete successfully in the global marketplace. Our productivity improvement fund, designed to support this drive, contributed significantly to this work and approved 157 projects in 2007. This performance led to the three-year total of 346 productivity improvement fund approvals and the attainment of a key strategic target of supporting over 300 companies to improve productivity and drive export gains.

With regard to starting and scaling companies, over the course of our three-year strategy, a key target was to support 210 new high potential start-up companies, HPSUs. Against this target, 221 new HPSUs were supported, 70 of which were approved in 2007. These companies are spread across Ireland and across a range of existing and emerging sectors. This group of highly innovative companies, targeting international markets with vision and ambition, represents the future of economic growth in Ireland. They are expected to grow rapidly, generate significant sales and employment, and become engines of economic growth as international players in their markets. Since the launch of our scaling initiative in 2005, significant progress in understanding the needs of companies pursuing a high-growth agenda has been acquired both by Enterprise Ireland and the companies themselves. In 2007, we continued to work intensively with scaling clients to help them pass target sales thresholds of €10 million, €15 million and €20 million. The number of scaling companies achieving these thresholds was particularly positive in regard to the €20 million figure, with 13 companies exceeding this target.

With regard to driving regional enterprise, with the establishment in 2007 of our national headquarters for entrepreneurship and regional development in Shannon, County Clare, and the integration of staff from Shannon Development involved in the development of Irish enterprises in the region, Enterprise Ireland now has a significant presence in the mid-west. A city and county enterprise boards co-ordination unit has also been established within Enterprise Ireland at Shannon to facilitate greater cohesion of strategic and operational activities in the enterprise development support offered to companies.

With regard to finance and investment, in 2007 approvals to client companies totalled €135.6 million. This included support for research and development, start-ups, expansions, productivity improvement projects, management development and training. Twenty-nine major investments in excess of €750,000 were approved to client companies, with associated company investment of €319.1 million. Total financial payments to companies in 2007 were €73.9 million. This included €23.68 million in share capital investment, €39.39 million in research and development, training and other capability building support and €10.83 million in capital and employment support for capacity expansion. The organisation realised €22.4 million from share sales, venture capital funds and share redemptions and a further €1.6 million in dividends from our equity portfolio. A number of venture capital funds made significant progress in 2007 under Enterprise Ireland's €175 million seed and venture capital scheme.

On behalf of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Enterprise Ireland administered a major capital investment fund for the Irish dairy processing sector. The dairy investment fund was designed to stimulate necessary investment to ensure the long-term competitiveness and viability of the highly important dairy industry in Ireland. In 2007, the Government approved 19 capital investment projects which were awarded grant assistance of €114 million under the fund. This investment will generate an estimated capital spend of €286 million in the Irish dairy sector.

In 2007, the board of Enterprise Ireland welcomed and endorsed a new three-year strategy, Transforming Irish Industry 2008-2010, which places innovation at its core and is driven by the overarching principle that growth in global markets through the internationalisation of Irish companies is key to future wealth and employment creation in Ireland. Despite the challenging environment, Enterprise Ireland client companies faced in 2008, the first year of the strategy, each of Enterprise Ireland's targets — exports, research and development, start-up activity and productivity improvements — were exceeded. In the context of reducing global demand, Enterprise Ireland clients are embracing a business model centred on in-depth market knowledge and a culture of innovation, and are competing and winning new sales in international markets. The success of indigenous manufacturing and services companies in securing export sales will continue to be a key driver of job creation and job maintenance in 2009. Enterprise Ireland has strived to work proactively with clients using all mechanisms available to it to help sustain companies in the context of the downturn in the economy. The importance of Enterprise Ireland's mission is paramount at this time.

I thank the Chairman and committee members and wish them well.

I thank Mr. Ryan. May we publish his statement?

Mr. Frank Ryan

Certainly.

I invite Professor Gannon to make his opening statement.

Professor Frank Gannon

I am delighted to have an opportunity to make a presentation to the committee. Copies of our submission document have been circulated to members. I propose to deviate from it in the interests of time and in order to highlight some particular points.

It is important that members understand the function of Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, which is a relatively new organisation. This is our first time to appear before the committee. SFI was established in 2003 as a separate legal entity under the Industrial Development (Science Foundation Ireland) Act 2003. We are under the umbrella of Forfás, as are Enterprise Ireland and the Industrial Development Authority, IDA. Those other agencies do excellent work, but SFI was established because analysis showed it was needed to fill a gap in the system. According to the Industrial Development (Science Foundation Ireland) Act 2003, SFI was established to "promote, develop and assist the carrying out of oriented basic research in strategic areas of scientific endeavour that concerns the future development and competitiveness of industry in the State". That was the part that was missing in the overall composition of activities.

It is significant that SFI is under the aegis of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Therefore, we are not to be judged simply as an educational or academic organisation. Ultimately, our actions must fit into the economic impacts set. It is notable that Mr. Ryan of Enterprise Ireland referred repeatedly to research and development in his opening statement. That is where we mesh with that organisation and the IDA. It also means our activities are constrained and focused on activities which are of strategic importance to the State. Our overall objective is to build world class skilled human capital in the areas of scientific research assigned to us. As referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General, these include biotechnology, information and communications technology and, more recently, sustainable energy and energy efficient technology. This meshes with the industrial activities fostered by Enterprise Ireland and the IDA.

The establishment of SFI was a leap in the dark because it was an entirely new initiative. The Government's framework document on sustainable economic renewal, Building Ireland's Smart Economy, published in December 2008, stated: "Science Foundation Ireland will continue to build Ireland's world class research capacity in strategic areas allied to the needs of industry". That puts it succinctly. In our own strategy document which is referred to in the formal submission the overall emphasis is on linkages between scientific excellence and economic impact. One must have the former in order to have economic impact in high technology areas. In presenting ourselves we often say we support research with consequences and research for Ireland's future. We are in agreement with statements and documents from many quarters in being strongly of the view that Ireland's future must be as a smart economy and, therefore, based on the quality of people in the system.

We work in close collaboration with our colleagues in Enterprise Ireland and the IDA. This is highlighted in the Team Ireland section of the document. With Enterprise Ireland, the technology referred to is an important component and a bridge between what happens in the higher education institutes and industrial output. At a practical level, we meet frequently with Enterprise Ireland at executive level, usually every six weeks. There are plans to engage Enterprise Ireland in targeting support for a major component of our activities, namely, the centres for science, engineering and technology, CSETs. The researchers we support, apart from being academically very strong, a sine qua non, also work with industry at a very high level. Our census shows that in 2008 they were working with 359 companies, some 100 of which were in the Enterprise Ireland area.

It is significant that the expenditure on research and development by the companies concerned is growing dramatically. Since SFI was established, this expenditure has increased from some €800 million to €1.6 billion. There are several implications of this increase. First, it implies more jobs are being created and more services purchased, but it also indicates that skilled personnel are coming into the system. As this spend by industry grows, so too does the need for the activities of SFI. Our scientists were directly related to 36% of the new agreements entered into by the IDA in the last year. Moreover, the IDA's figures for 2008 indicate that more than 40% of its new agreements were in the research and development area. All of this underlines the absolute importance of the SFI component in keeping manpower skills growing and attracting companies to the State. Multiple examples of this can be identified.

Although ours is a recently established organisation and there was some uncertainty about how to handle us, we have been reviewed extensively. For example, the first five years of our operation were reviewed in the Brook report which came to a very favourable conclusion. We were also favourably reviewed in the Indecon report, with a particular emphasis on value for money. Both reports pointed out that it was early days and that we had to be allowed time to develop our role. The examples I have given point to us being very relevant to what is happening in Ireland.

Ours is a small organisation on one level. Some 5% of our expenditure relates to pay and non-pay elements. In other words, the vast majority of funding we receive from the Exchequer goes back into the system. Some 3% goes towards salaries, which is about as lean as one can get. We are deliberately keeping our numbers low, with an employment cap of 54 which we just about reached recently. We are managed, as are all the other organisations, by a board which includes external members, an audit committee and internal auditor. We have placed significant emphasis on good governance at every step. As a result, we have received a clean bill of health from all quarters. We are guided in our activities by an international peer review which is an essential component to ensure the right decisions are made. That is meshed with strategic analysis with colleagues from the agencies to which I referred.

The primary focus of this meeting is our activities in 2007. In that year grants to research bodies amounted to €156.6 million, comprising 570 new grants of varying sizes. One of the characteristics of our work has been the growth in the number of applications and, therefore, the number of researchers we can support, some at a very modest level and others more substantially. In 2007 we initiated what we call strategic research clusters, 12 of which were launched in that year, with another five added since. These research clusters, based in the universities and institutes of technology, are deliberately designed to be close to industries' needs. There is a requirement that participating industries must, after a time, contribute up to 25% of the cost. This was not a requirement on day one because of the complexity of putting together these organisations. Surprisingly, however, most had industries tied to them from the beginning. The list is a who's who of all the companies one would require. From the beginning the 12 strategic research clusters were working with 43 companies. The advantage to Ireland of this linking cannot be underestimated. It consolidates the engagement of companies in the State and means they are more likely to stay there.

The year 2007 saw us continuing our principal investigator programme which seeks to attract and retain top class researchers in order that we have the necessary skill base in the areas of relevance. The CSET programme was launched in 2003-04. A new centre was established in 2007 in the area of localisation, which is to do with instant software translation. It is based in DCU.

As for SFI's activities in 2007, the figures I provided to members previously refer to the number of companies with which we are dealing and there is a lag time regarding investment in this area. This is the reason the investments are multi-annual and that has been happening.

Given the introduction, I will refer to the comments by the Comptroller and Auditor General with reference to our awards management system, AMS, on which we will have further discussion. It probably is worth noting a few points in this regard on which I will be happy to expand. First, the decision to draw attention to this issue was taken by us. In 2006, SFI procured an internal audit-driven external auditor's report, which was then provided to the Comptroller and Auditor General, because we were not satisfied with what was happening. We knew this was not working in the manner we had anticipated. When I was appointed in mid-2007, it came as a surprise to me that this had happened, as well as the manner in which it happened. Consequently, I have been obliged to catch up on its history because all the principals have already moved on. That said, there are reasons that explain but do not excuse what has happened. I will explain in the sense that this took place in 2003. It was a new organisation that was doing a new sort of business in Ireland. It was a business that was transacted in the electronic medium at an early stage for many. At the time, I was a scientist who was making applications and the manner in which people applied for funds worldwide was clunky and uncomfortable. The manner in which people submitted papers for publication was highly unsure. However, this had to be done because it is widely accepted that there had to be a move from paper and tracing papers. One must think about what the Ryanair or Aer Lingus sites would have been like in 2003, as one would have found many deficiencies. In this case, they were identified at a very early stage. Moreover, the addition of new activities, as happened in SFI, including the research frontiers programme that was transferred from Enterprise Ireland, required an entirely new configuration.

This goes some way towards explaining the inadequacy of the scoping at the outset. As the organisation had not scoped itself, it could not anticipate its needs. Few people were involved, there was no experience in the area and there was a strong dependence, which seemed reliable at the time, on the experience of the US National Science Foundation, NSF, because my predecessor came from there. However, what perhaps was overlooked was that the NSF had an massive budget to work on this area and had approximately 20 people working on it constantly, which was not the case here. These are explanations but not excuses. It is something from which we have learned much. On foot of a great deal of engagement in the management of the process, we have moved towards putting in place correct procurement and infinitely greater scoping to be in a position to replace in due course the system we had in place.

I wish to make a second point because numbers can deviate slightly. Only one of the three components whose use were originally anticipated is still in use and it has provided the service for the entry phase for thousands of applications since then, up to and including the present. However, it is not that one third of the cost occurred in that area. Two thirds of the cost fell on that particular component and the other two, which were not activated for good reasons, constituted smaller but significant costs. I will conclude in respect of this issue and will allow members to develop their own questions in this regard.

I should make one or two points. The first is that although the sums that Ireland is spending on research and development by the SFI, Enterprise Ireland and the others are large mathematically, by international comparisons when relativised to GDP, we still are on a growth phase. We are still just about at the EU average and are approximately 50% below the OECD average, which pertains to the countries with which we wish to be in competition. Consequently, the investment to date in SFI is not excessive by world standards. It needs to grow, which is the overall plan underlying the strategy for science, technology and innovation, and one would hope this can be delivered upon in due course.

SFI is managed in an efficient and cost-effective manner. We are delivering the primary purpose for which we were established and this has been reviewed by others, that is, world class research capability with transfer to industry. We are having an immediate impact on industry in Ireland, which is a little surprising because there could have been some hanging around before we could deliver something, whereby there would be a rolling five year promise that it was coming. In fact, given the examples indicated earlier, this is happening now, which paves the way for Ireland's future in the smart economy or whatever other derivations may arise. This is showing through with all the emphasis in the industries on research and development. I thank members for their attention and I am open to questions.

As Professor Gannon already has agreed we can publish his statement, we will move on to questions.

I welcome the witnesses. Mr. Ryan of Enterprise Ireland has given an overview of its previous strategy. As for the current strategy for 2008 to 2010, can he flesh out some of the targets it has set for itself? What targets has it reached to date and what does Mr. Ryan foresee for the remainder of this year and next year? Has Enterprise Ireland been obliged to revisit its targets in the light of current circumstances?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We certainly have been obliged to revisit our strategy because work on the strategy that was devised for the period from 2008 to 2010 took place in the second half of 2007 and we are in a different world today than was then the case. Consequently, there has been speedy change to that strategy. Our board considered and approved a supplemental strategy for us in February 2009. This means the entire environment being faced by our companies has changed. The biggest change of course is the reduction in world demand. Competition in international markets now is much more intense than it had been and there is an increasing requirement for companies to deal with the recent massive changes regarding exchange rates with the dollar and sterling, which are used by our major trading partners.

In response, we must do practical things to help our companies during this time. First, we have been focusing on access to finance for our client companies. In this regard, a new relationship is now developing with the Irish banks. The banks have a new focus on concentrating on the business sector and dedicated teams within the two main banks now have been established. We have daily contact with those dedicated teams regarding the position of our companies and on the joint ability of Enterprise Ireland and the banks to help where we can. As for access to finance, we also received Government approval earlier this year for €100 million in investment, which is referred to as the enterprise stabilisation fund. A total of €50 million of this funding is available to us at present and even though we only got approval for those funds approximately four or five weeks ago, some companies have already had funding approved. The €50 million will be expended between now and the end of this year.

The final area in which we have been highly active is that of venture capital and the creation of seed capital and funding for start-up companies. As part of the renegotiation of the guarantee for the banks, a clause was agreed in those discussions that required both main banks to put forward €15 million and make it available for seed funding. When our own funds are included, this means an additional €46 million is available today to Irish entrepreneurs to help them set up.

To summarise, we certainly have been affected by the world situation and have reacted as quickly as possible. As for access to finance, we are working with our companies aggressively to move them out of the United Kingdom, where they are most exposed in respect of sterling. We wish to move them into the eurozone in the first instance and, for those which are most capable, into areas such as the Gulf, Brazil, India and China, where economies are still growing. Finally, on the issue of competitiveness, we have established two departments within the organisation to focus on cost reduction in companies and the introduction of world class manufacturing to an increasing number of companies. I do not wish to take away from the 2008 to 2010 strategy because the ultimate strategy, which is to drive further increases in exports by Irish companies, remains unchanged. However, we must recognise the reality that companies face at present and we are working to support them in this regard.

Mr. Ryan should provide members with some figures to delve into a little more detail. He stated that Enterprise Ireland has been in daily contact with the banks and presumably he was referring to the two main banks. What is the breakdown in respect of the number of applications for credit or finance that Enterprise Ireland has been pursuing? How many have been successful and how many have been unsuccessful?

Mr. Frank Ryan

First, our engagement with the banks is related to the enterprise stabilisation fund. In other words, it is related to our own client companies and not to indigenous business in general. To date, 40% of the €50 million fund has been allocated to companies that have either been approved or are being processed. A further 90 companies are identified on our pipeline list, with another 250 companies on our prospects list. Not all companies take advantage of the fund. Some would like to have it, but find when they make the application that they are in a better financial position than they originally believed. The fund can be taken advantage of by a substantial pipeline of companies.

Separate to the stabilisation fund, is Enterprise Ireland directly pursuing with banks access to credit and finance on behalf of its client companies?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We are doing that primarily through the European Investment Bank, EIB. To date in 2009, some €350 million has been provided by the EIB in small to medium-sized enterprise, SME, financing to the banks. Between 2000 and 2008, approximately €3.8 billion in loans has been made by the EIB to Irish banks, €845 million of which has been provided to lending to the SME sector.

In how many instances were target companies refused financing by the banks? Does Mr. Ryan have a figure in this respect?

Mr. Frank Ryan

I do not have an accurate figure. Accessing finances can be challenging. If there is a good, viable business plan with a solid basis for growth in the current environment — strangely, recessions are good times in which to start businesses——

Maybe Mr. Ryan could revert with the numbers through the Chair in due course.

Mr. Frank Ryan

I would be happy to send any details.

Mr. Ryan mentioned competitiveness, an issue in which we are all interested. What are Enterprise Ireland's opinions in this regard? We have wage, energy and waste disposal costs.

Mr. Frank Ryan

Only two things can be done about competitiveness, namely, increase a company's productivity or increase its innovation. It is Enterprise Ireland's opinion that both must be done. The largest areas of financial expenditure annually are research and development and innovation.

During the 2005-07 period, we started the productivity improvement fund to reach out to companies to have them carry out what was essentially a competitiveness check, to come forward with a plan in which they could show that their productivity and cost competitiveness were under control and to remain in a sufficiently competitive position so as to continue to win and secure exports overseas. Our target was for 300 companies to benefit from the scheme, but 346 went through. Since the scheme's completion, we have started a new scheme called the growth fund. It covers a wide range of activities in addition to productivity and is the channel through which we address the latter issue. We are active in working with our companies on that matter and on innovation. The companies that do well overseas are those that can add value to their products and services. They have invested in research and development and are securing contracts worldwide.

The question of productivity is uppermost in our minds, primarily driven by the change in the exchange rate between the euro and sterling and the consequent pressures on Irish companies. They must improve productivity or else they will not be successful in renewing their overseas export contracts.

What are Mr. Ryan's opinions on wage rates? I come from County Limerick from where Dell moved to Poland. The difference in wage rates is obviously significant and is a considerable factor in our underlying competitiveness. What is Enterprise Ireland doing to encourage its companies to address the issue?

Mr. Frank Ryan

When many of our companies come forward, their business plans report that they have reduced wages at management level and across their organisations. This is being done more frequently than infrequently. Ireland is in the middle of a correction of its cost base and is the only country in the EU 27 that can show a reduction in the cost of labour, which augurs well for future competitiveness. We welcomed the 10% reduction in electricity prices and look forward to further reductions. To be competitive, we must be in control of our cost base. If we can do that, we have the talented companies and entrepreneurs who could use the advantage.

In terms of the haemorrhaging of our manufacturing jobs, are we reacting quickly enough? I will press Mr. Ryan on this matter, given the swing to eastern Europe, Asia and so on. Have we a future?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We have a future in value added manufacturing and in manufacturing that involves a heavy amount of automation and, perhaps, capital intensity. I must be straight with the Deputy — we do not have a future in low cost manufacturing. I would not want to see such a future, as our standard of living would need to drop substantially. We need a value added economy. When such corrections occur, it is unfortunate that people lose their jobs. While the job losses are regrettable, we are transitioning from an era of industrial development to a value added one.

I thank Mr. Ryan. Regarding the venture capital and seed capital funds, to what extent has Enterprise Ireland had failures and what was the value of the write-offs?

Mr. Frank Ryan

I might revert to the Deputy and provide details on the value of write-offs, as I do not have them to hand in that form. Since the organisation's foundation, we have invested in and taken an equity position in more than 1,000 companies. As of last year, when we last carried out a full review, 760 of those companies were still in business. Our greatest interest is not only that they should be in business, but that they should be growing. There is a danger that some startup companies could become lifestyle companies, which is not the reason for our investment. Rather, we invest to get substantial economic growth from the businesses.

A number of our companies are reaching turnovers of approximately €50 million. As reported in yesterday's newspapers, Norkom, an Irish company, is the No. 1 anti-money laundering software company in the world. Yesterday, its revenues of €48 million were announced. Another example is Daon, the world's No. 1 company in terms of biometric software for security applications. When one passes through the emigration desk at Dublin Airport on the way to the United States of America, one's eye is photographed and fingerprints taken. The biometric software that enables these measures is supplied by an Irish company to Homeland Security in the US and to the border control authorities of Australia, Japan, Ireland and others. A growing number of high-technology Irish companies can win in international markets. This is the purpose of Enterprise Ireland, namely, to get the indigenous sector performing well in the financial markets.

Is Mr. Ryan telling the committee that it invested in approximately 800 companies, of which 40 have failed to the end of 2008?

Mr. Frank Ryan

I will revert with the exact details. I am keen that the committee would have the exact data.

I have a local interest in the mid-west region. What is Enterprise Ireland's overlap with Shannon Development? The focus and remits of the agencies have changed.

Mr. Frank Ryan

There has been a change, but there is no overlap. Responsibility for the development of indigenous industry transferred back to Enterprise Ireland. We have set up a base at Shannon to cover the area and Shannon Development has a separate mandate. We have 25 or 27 colleagues from Shannon Development.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Some 31.

Mr. Frank Ryan

They are joining us as we take over the mandate. They are doing a fine job in the development of indigenous industry nationally, not just in the mid-west region, as part of the Enterprise Ireland group of colleagues.

I welcome the witnesses to the committee and thank them for their presentations. Members of this committee regularly express frustration at the time lag between the reports and the opportunity to consider them.

In terms of employment, 2007 was a long time ago and could be considered another country. Performance up to and including 2007 was very strong. Targets were exceeded on many fronts. Net job creation was 1,321 in companies supported by Enterprise Ireland in 2007. Is there an update on the figure for 2008?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We received our certificate from the Comptroller and Auditor General and that goes forward to the Departments, then to the Cabinet agenda and is laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. That will happen before 30 June 2009. That will show, as we have shown in our annual statement, that in 2008 the agency had a net loss of 8,003 jobs. Some 65% of those job losses are associated with construction-related sectors, which is an important point. There is much doom and gloom around and it is important to realise that industries such as clean tech, life sciences, software and medical devices are still doing very well and are increasing their exports from Ireland. We have had quite a hit from construction and construction-related areas, such as engineering companies that supplied equipment and components to the construction sector. They have been affected by the construction downturn.

Regarding exports, Mr. Ryan said that Irish enterprises grew exports in 2008. That is very encouraging. Can Mr. Ryan refer to new markets being developed in Brazil, India and China? What kind of products is Mr. Ryan talking about? In order for a company to receive support from Enterprise Ireland is it a requirement to be engaged in exporting? How does the system worked? Is the approach always made by the company? Does Enterprise Ireland seek companies to be identified for support?

Mr. Frank Ryan

I will answer the last questions first. In order to work with Enterprise Ireland a company must be exporting or must have the strong intent to export. Recently we developed programmes for domestic companies involved in the service industry that had not exported before. We are constantly reaching out to see if we can introduce companies to markets and cause them to be in a position to export. The vast number majority of companies we have in our client portfolio are existing exporters.

Is there a minimum requirement in respect of the level of products exported compared to the domestic markets?

Mr. Frank Ryan

There is no real minimum. The only minimum in place is that one works with city and county enterprise boards until the company employs ten people. After that point, if the company has export potential, it transfers to Enterprise Ireland.

What is the split between products for the export market and products for the domestic market?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We focus on exports. We do not have a minimum but we focus on the export dimension.

There is no requirement that the company is exporting the majority of its products. Must there be some element of export?

Mr. Frank Ryan

If the company had no exports and wanted to break into the export market for the first time we would be delighted to work with it.

Traditionally, in exports terms, Ireland's main trading partners have been western Europe and North America. The world has changed and there are four or five major economic zones that would be of considerable strategic importance to Ireland. As part of our export strategy, we wish to redefine the footprint of Irish exports on a worldwide basis. We want to stay strong in western Europe and North America and increase exports. However, we also recognise that the highest growth economies will be the Gulf, Brazil, Russia, India, China and one other. These are the areas we have identified. The balance of the trade mission programmes we run has been adjusted to support that with the visit of Ministers and the Taoiseach. In the past 12 months the Taoiseach has led trade missions to China and Japan, the Tánaiste has led trade missions to Saudi Arabia and Qatar and the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Kelleher, is just back from leading a trade mission to Russia.

The importance of these trade missions is that in areas where we are not economically strong, we must develop the business and Government contact network so that we can open doors for Irish companies. We have 31 Irish offices overseas and the purpose is to open doors for people. We must make sure we have them in front of decision makers to maximise the number of Irish companies entering those markets. More Irish companies export today than at any other time in history of the State. They are increasingly able to supply the most sophisticated requirements in North America. Most of our software companies want to get a sale in North America first because that is regarded as ticking the box in terms of quality. If one can sell in North America, one can sell worldwide. It is regarded as the testing ground for acceptance in other markets.

Apart from software, what are the other products?

Mr. Frank Ryan

There are a range of products, from clean tech, engineering products, life sciences, medical devices and education services. Universities and institutes of technology in Ireland have 6% of students from abroad, which is a services export. We are active in introducing them internationally. There is a wide range. We deal with 22 industry sectors in total, from timber to software. The food sector is the biggest of all, accounting for some 50% of our exports on the indigenous side.

Can Mr. Ryan put a figure on the growth in exports in 2008?

Mr. Frank Ryan

I can because we have the figure but it has not been laid before the Oireachtas and the Cabinet has not seen it yet. I am not sure what is the protocol for announcing the figure.

Mr. Ryan can tell us.

Mr. Frank Ryan

The figure that we will report to the Tánaiste for growth of exports in 2008 is 3%.

Turning to investing in the capacity of the organisation, in 2007, 272 managers participated in development programmes. What was the cost of this programme?

Mr. Frank Ryan

Ms Julie Sinnamon will address that issue.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

That cost refers to client management development programmes we have been running for our client companies as opposed to internal management development.

Is the cost of that available?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

I do not have the costs of the programme available. We can submit it separately.

Were those programmes outsourced? Who provided the training?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

They are all outsourced. A range of suppliers provide them. The most high profile of the programmes was on leadership for growth and two groups did this last year. Some 30 companies went on the programme, which was initially run by Stanford University, California for software companies. We ran programmes such as international selling, which involves DIT and uses a range of international suppliers to strengthen the syllabus.

Does Ms Sinnamon have information available on those suppliers?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Trinity College, which runs our masters programme, DIT and Stanford University are the three key suppliers for the long programmes. We use a range of small suppliers for the shorter programmes that we run for companies.

Will Ms Sinnamon provide us with a figure on the cost?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes.

Why is the cost not readily available to the committee?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We do not have the figures offhand. We run a variety of programmes and we will be pleased to provide the data.

Deputy Shortall seeks the overall cost and not the detail.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The figures are included in the overall training programme cost.

We had previous problems with FÁS on development programmes and we want as much information as possible to assess whether there is value for money.

Mr. Frank Ryan

I apologise that the information is not available in the format requested this morning but we will be pleased to provide it.

The chairman referred to FÁS training programmes. In the course of our examination of the FÁS accounts we discovered that it was spending more than €50 million a year on providing in-company training. Is there any question of an overlap between the training provided by Enterprise Ireland and FÁS? How is it decided who does what?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The focus of our training programmes has been on management in Irish companies and Enterprise Ireland clients. On the international selling side we have focused on companies that export and FÁS runs a programme for companies selling on the Irish market. We have are in considerable discussion with FÁS to ensure that we do not compete with each other or duplicate each other's efforts. We run a relatively small number of management programmes for the companies that we deal with, largely on leadership for growth and international selling.

Ms Sinnamon will appreciate that it is impossible for us to come to a view on that when we do not have a figure. Does the delegation have a ballpark figure?

Mr. Frank Ryan

The ballpark figure would be nothing like €50 million or even 10% of that figure. It would be in the region of €3 million or €4 million, that is the type of figure we are discussing. We will provide an exact figure. Experience has taught us that the quality of the management team in our Irish companies is a key differentiator and that is why intervention is focused at management level.

There was a figure of €12 million in 2008 as against €5 million in 2007 in the financial statements of 31 December 2008.

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

I am looking at the 2007 accounts here and I see a figure of €13,610,000 for marketing and knowledge transfer support and the corresponding figure for 2009 is €12 million. This covers a range of marketing and training events. Is this the figure to which the Chairman referred?

No, it is management——

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Management development and training.

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

That is grants we pay to companies as part of their management development programmes. It is not for the courses we run ourselves.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

If we ran a leadership for growth programme the grant aid for companies would be included. It is the total spend which includes all the programmes that companies run themselves and that are grant aided. The figure is approximately €3 million but we will provide a specific figure to the committee.

I look forward to receiving that information.

In 2007 supports to client companies totalled €135.6 million. Does the delegation have a figure for 2008? What trend is taking place with this figure? Does Enterprise Ireland intend to provide more under that heading this year?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We hope to be. If one examines the overall trend one sees that Irish industry is doing better over the past five years than it was doing prior to that period. It is in a much better position to draw down funds from Enterprise Ireland.

What is the corresponding figure for 2008?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

We did not bring the 2008 accounts with us and they have not yet been formally published. In the interests of accuracy we will return to the committee with that information.

We have figures on the financial support industry. There is a total of €262 million, an increase from €184 million. The breakdown includes many headings including management development and training which shows an increase from €5 million to €12 million and consultancy grants also increased from €5 million to €12 million. Will Mr. Hopkins give us a breakdown on these figures?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

For 2008?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

We do not have the 2008 details because we came on the basis of the 2007 accounts.

Why did the consultancy grants increase from €5 million to €12 million?

Mr. Frank Ryan

The Chairman is reading from our 2007 accounts.

No, from the 2008 accounts.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

The Comptroller and Auditor General has the 2008 accounts.

Mr. Frank Ryan

I see.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

We came prepared to deal with the 2007 accounts. Our 2008 accounts have not been published yet, they have just been signed off.

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

We have a detailed analysis of them and we can come back with an explanation on them. I apologise again that we came unprepared to compare 2008 with 2007. We compared 2007 with 2006.

I would like to move on to the 31 offices which Enterprise Ireland has abroad. What staff are in those offices?

Mr. Frank Ryan

They are primarily industry experienced staff.

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Of the 130 staff, 102 were recruited in the marketplace and typically they have relevant sectoral knowledge in the geographic area. The other 28 are ex-pats. Typically we send one to each market but some offices have a higher number from Ireland.

Of the staff, 102 were recruited locally.

From the figures we know a considerable amount of foreign travel is involved. It is part of the job. What is the policy in respect of foreign travel? Has Enterprise Ireland adopted in full the Civil Service policy on foreign travel? What controls does Enterprise Ireland have in place to ensure there is no abuse of it?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We have adopted the guidelines issued by the Department of Finance. We have a dedicated air travel policy in place. It is the policy of Enterprise Ireland to fly economy class. There are rare exceptions to this, which include travel with Ministers on trade missions, but the vast majority of our flights are always economy class.

When did Enterprise Ireland adopt the Civil Service policy?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We have always had it.

An issue that arose in our investigation of FÁS was State agencies paying for Ministers, other politicians and ministerial advisers to go on foreign trips and the committee took a strong view that this is not good practice. If a Minister travels then his or her Department should foot the bill for it. What has been the practice of Enterprise Ireland?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

The policy is that we pay for the Minister and one official as part of any trade mission. We do not pay for any guest, spouse or relation of the Minister. We have a dedicated person to deal with a Department to organise such trips. In one instance last year a Minister's spouse did travel but the cost was formally billed to the Department and was recovered by Enterprise Ireland.

We need to reiterate the view of the committee on the paying of bills for Ministers as a concern is raised about conflict. We will pursue this later.

What is the policy of Enterprise Ireland on bonus payments?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We have two bonus payment schemes in the organisation. One pertains to the senior management bonuses and the other, called the merit award scheme, to bonuses for staff at level F and below. We operate the schemes in the complete knowledge and approval of our parent Department.

What was the cost of each of the schemes in 2007?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The merit award scheme cost approximately €600,000 and the senior management bonus cost €300,000.

Are figures available on the largest bonus paid?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

We do not have that specifically but we can submit a detailed breakdown.

It is becoming a regular event that full information is not made available to the committee during its meetings and only submitted afterwards through correspondence. It is difficult in such circumstances to put the information on the public record. I would have thought basic information such as that which Deputy Shortall requested should be readily available.

Mr. Frank Ryan

I apologise that the information is not available in such detail.

These are basic questions.

I would like to move on to the voluntary leaving programme instituted in 2006, which cost just over €8 million. Why was it necessary to introduce a redundancy package, how many staff availed of it and what terms were offered?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

The key reason for introducing the scheme was because when we introduced the strategy for 2005 to 2007 an issue arose in respect of the skills needed within the organisation to deliver on it. We formed the view that we needed to reduce our existing headcount before finding additional staff. We received agreement from the Department of Finance with the support of our parent Department to reduce numbers on the basis that for every three people leaving the organisation we could replace one, thereby bringing in the necessary skills. The feedback we received from companies on the strategic process was that companies desired a higher level of sectoral expertise and stronger in-market skills than we could provide at the time. The scheme resulted in the reduction of 78 full-time equivalent posts, which worked out as 87 people, and we subsequently hired 26 new staff.

What were the terms on offer?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

There were two schemes. The voluntary early retirement scheme offered six weeks per year of service, with a ceiling of two years, and the possibility of getting up to seven additional years pro rata with 20 years service. The voluntary redundancy programme offered up to six weeks as a lump sum.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

The voluntary retirement programme was the standard public service scheme in place since 1988. The most recent scheme announced for the public does not include the additional years.

How many additional years were allowed?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Seven, assuming a minimum of 20 years service.

Was senior management included in these figures?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes, one executive director and two divisional managers departed.

I am asking because concerns have arisen regarding early retirement schemes in other companies. Can I take it no staff returned on a contract basis?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes.

I would like to ask one question regarding property. In 2007 Enterprise Ireland had three buildings in Dublin, namely, Glasnevin, Sandymount and Wilton Place, but I understand the situation has changed since then. What is the current arrangement in regard to property in Dublin and what will be the agency's needs in the future?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We have established a new headquarters in East Point, Dublin. We no longer occupy any of our four former sites across the city.

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

We had four main sites in Dublin. The lease on Merrion Hall, which was formerly the trade world centre, expired on 30 October and we exited in mid-September. We leased three floors in IPC House but assigned the lease back to the Law Reform Commission, which leased one of the floors, on the day we moved out. Wilton Park House, which was occupied as part of the Forfás group, was reassigned, along with the grant-in-aid money, to Forfás at the end of 2005 or early 2006. A 12 acre site in Glasnevin which currently houses the national metrology laboratory has been assigned by the Government to the affordable housing scheme and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is at present conducting a feasibility study on the property.

Is the East Point property being leased or was it purchased?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

The East Point facility is occupied on a 25 year lease, with a ten year break clause on one of the two blocks.

Were there savings for the organisation?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

Significant savings were made. On the operations side, savings of approximately €3.2 million accrue per annum in rent, rates and service charges such as security, heat, light and power. More importantly in light of the current embargo on staffing, we have consolidated areas such as receptions, post rooms and internal services. Furthermore, productivity will improve significantly because of the collaboration ensuing from the entire agency being on the one site.

Arising from Deputy Shortall's questions regarding bonus payments, I consider that such basic information should be made available to the committee during its hearings. I suggest that a telephone call be made so we can get the information requested before the meeting concludes.

Mr. Frank Ryan

Yes.

I ask for further clarity on Enterprise Ireland's relationship with county enterprise boards. I note from the report that a payment of €8.112 million was made in 2007 to city and county enterprise boards and that the agency has administrative responsibilities in this regard. What do such responsibilities entail?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

As the CEO has noted, we took on responsibility for county enterprise boards at the end of 2006 or early 2007. We have established a dedicated unit in Shannon to manage and co-ordinate the boards' functions and the Department is part of a committee which allocates the moneys granted through subhead G of its Vote to the various boards. A staff of approximately ten people in Enterprise Ireland have taken over the responsibilities previously performed by the Department and their emphasis is on creating stronger synergies between county enterprise board clients which are potentially high performing start-ups and Enterprise Ireland's clients.

Has Enterprise Ireland a role in assessing the effectiveness of these boards?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

Yes. Clearly, however, this is an ongoing process given that we have only recently taken responsibility for this area. We are exploring ways of putting in place effective key performance indicators.

Deputy Shortall asked another question regarding properties. During its recent appearance before the committee, Forfás described the vacant properties in its possession. Did any communication take place between that agency and Enterprise Ireland regarding the use of these properties?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

Understandably, given that we are part of the same group, we worked closely with Forfás in this regard. However, none of the buildings available within our organisations would have addressed the key objective behind moving to East Point, that is, bringing everyone together in one cohesive unit. We would have had to seek additional properties if we opted for any of the buildings then available. We looked at one of them from the fit-out perspective. The fit-out would have been quite substantial because we went into a relative green-field situation at East Point and, as expected, the fit-out costs were not what one would expect for a total gutting and refurbishment of a building.

In the 2007 accounts there is a figure of €5 million for consultancy services. The 2008 accounts have a figure of €12 million. could Mr. Hopkins explain this major increase?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

Is that consultancy grants?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

Note 4 deals with moneys to our client companies. For consultancy grants I am looking at €1.029 million in 2006 and €1.671 in 2007. Is that the line?

That is the line.

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

This is where we support companies which have taken on consultants to review their internal management processes. There is a grant to a company, like any grant we give, but it is under the heading of consultancy.

Appendix 1 to the accounts shows an investment of €16 million in a venture capitalist activity. What is that?

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

As the CEO mentioned earlier, Enterprise Ireland worked on a number of rounds of venture capital, and that was our contribution to those various funds. There was a scheme from 1996 to 2001 and there is a new scheme in place until 2006. We invested that money on behalf of the State in 2007.

My other questions are for Professor Gannon. We have dealt with FÁS for quite some time here, over five public hearings. One of the areas we examined was the discover science programme. One of the recommendations we made was that this should come under the remit of Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, rather than FÁS. Since the publication of our report in February, has there been any exchange of views with the Department on SFI's taking over that science programme?

Professor Frank Gannon

FÁS has science challenge and Forfás has discover science. I wonder which one the Chairman means.

I mean the one operated by FÁS.

Professor Frank Gannon

That is science challenge. There have been discussions within the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and some aspects of that have value while others have less. There has been no substantive discussion on SFI taking that over. Our overall view is that we would spend money differently, were that money available to us. There is a value in having some scientists going to top-class laboratories around the world and coming back. That component of the programme, leaving aside questions of costs and value for money, is one we appreciate is very important and we have a programme of that type. Therefore we do not consider it is necessary to bring that into our programmes as we already have a similar travel fellowship, although it is a more modest programme. Sending people to study and do their PhDs abroad benefits the individual but we question whether it benefits Ireland and we are not in favour of it. Nothing is happening in our area because of that.

One of the concerns of the committee when we had the Department of Education and Science before us last year was the effectiveness of spending on science and technology. I note that Professor Gannon has a number of programmes under that heading. What is SFI's view on some of the programmes operated to encourage the development of science programmes in secondary education? Page 23 of SFI's annual report says it has 40 secondary teachers taking part in university programmes. What is the target of that programme in terms of numbers?

Professor Frank Gannon

That makes sense as part of the pipeline or the whole ecosystem but we have stopped it. The number was staying around 40 teachers and there are many returns. The impact was not being amplified in the way we had hoped. It was very effective for that small number and because of examining our expenditure and how to get the best value from the system, we have discontinued that. We still have a system in place, called Eureka, which provides funds for students to spend time in universities. That gives them a flavour of what research is like and is very effective and is the one area we are involved in. We have been focusing on our own primary area rather than the other areas.

The SFI projects have been running for approximately five years. Has Professor Gannon undertaken an evaluation?

Professor Frank Gannon

We have done many evaluations. They happen mid-term and at the end of terms. A scientist who applies for an engineer position and then applies for another round of funding goes through another specific examination and may or may not be funded. The success rate of funding applications to SFI is approximately 20%. Not all those who got funding the first time around continue to receive funding, for different reasons. Sometimes they have not performed, the competition is better or they have moved into areas that are less relevant to us. We have evaluated at the individual level and collectively. We have had an evaluation by INDECON on two of our major programmes. Part and parcel of our activity is to constantly evaluate and, therefore, push the activities in the direction we feel they are needed.

On aligning research with industrial needs, CIRCA did an evaluation report which suggested much work needed to be done to streamline research to the needs of industry. What is SFI's response to that evaluation?

Professor Frank Gannon

That is exactly what we are doing. The examples I gave about the scientists we support who work with the 359 industries indicate that. We are aware of some deficits in our system and we have revamped a programme in the area of industry collaboration, which was secondary to our activities before this, but five years on groups have been doing well enough to get going. We must be careful to avoid the fallacy that we can look at the industries of today and have the scientific investment targeting exactly those because by the time that investment has matured in three to five years' time, the industries of today may have gone in a different direction. One must have a good understanding of the dynamic and the breadth of training such that it is able to impact on all the industries.

The alignment is happening, otherwise we would not have the industries signing up with the IDA. The 59 new agreements put in place must mean there is an alignment. To get it perfect is impossible because it is a shifting target, but we have been very successful at getting that good correlation. The fact that industries will say, and write in our annual reports, that they appreciate what we are doing is a further indication of it.

I welcome the delegates. How satisfied are they with the enterprise boards? They have major investment in them and there is a number of them around the country. What co-operation do they get from them?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

They came in to us towards the end of 2007. Some €34 million is being paid into all the enterprise boards per year. We work with them constantly to improve the effectiveness and integration between them and us. From the perspective of potential entrepreneurs on a regional basis, it is less fragmented and there is an integrated approach. We are making good progress in achieving that but it will take more time. We have made good progress in getting better value for money by collectively negotiating costs, for example for insurance and supplies, to enterprise boards, which they previously negotiated individually. There has been good progress.

The challenges regarding companies laying off staff and the level of demand continues to grow. The budgets to the enterprise boards have been reduced, as well as those for all the agencies. It is a work in progress which will continue but there is a good and positive working relationship between the boards and ourselves.

How is effectiveness measured?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

We have not done a value for money analysis in terms of cost per job, etc., but there are ongoing evaluations.

Do all the bodies spend their budget?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

Yes.

Do many go over their budget?

Ms Julie Sinnamon

No, as they do not have the capacity to go over their budget. They all spend their budget and are concerned about the cuts they have had in their budgets, which makes things difficult.

Mr. Ryan made a point in his opening remarks about energy and how the cost of electricity was falling. Unless it comes down significantly, we will still be among those with the highest costs for electricity in Europe. Dell in Limerick, for example, cited significant costs as a problem. How do we overcome costs in such areas?

I have made a statement on the use of nuclear fuel. The Forfás report on climate change dealt with this and we must compete with the French, Germans and British on our doorstep, which have had nuclear energy for electricity generation purposes. It is very hard to compete with that from a cost perspective, no matter how much we gain from the falls in the price of electricity. What are the views of the witnesses with regard to waste and our energy costs? I take the point that they have and continue to be reduced but we are not at the races in terms of cost.

We are a backwards country with regard to waste disposal and electricity generation because we do not have incineration or nuclear energy. The world has moved ahead but we seem to be one of the few countries which does not have those facilities. In trying to create jobs this way, it makes the work of the witnesses very difficult. What are the views of the delegation?

It is a borderline policy issue but it is a valid question.

It would make jobs provision cheaper.

I said it was a borderline issue but it is allowable.

It reminds me of what was said this morning.

Mr. Frank Ryan

The setting of electricity costs and so forth is not within our remit but we are on the record expressing the concern of our client companies with regard to electricity costs here. We hope the interconnectors planned will bring about a reduction in electricity costs. Some of the electricity coming to us may well come from nuclear facilities elsewhere in Europe, and we may be the recipient of electricity from nuclear stations.

That would be an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

We are not getting cost benefits from that.

Mr. Frank Ryan

The waste issue is growing but the area is also a growing opportunity. An increasing number of companies are targeting recycling and the production of materials — particularly plastics — from recycled products. Companies are also involved with water treatment. There is a growing competence among a cadre of our companies to be effective in that area and we are assisting them to export their products and services to Europe and further afield in that sector. It is a matter of concern that waste charges are high and we have embarked on a correction in our overall cost base. I share the concerns expressed by the Deputy.

What is Enterprise Ireland's public relations budget? Is it in the accounts under administration or does it have its own heading?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We have a travel budget and there would be a combination of mileage, expenses, subsistence, air travel and hotels. The total budget is——

My question related to public relations.

Mr. Frank Ryan

I apologise. That budget is quite small and I understand it is of the order of €200,000. That would include publication of our annual reports and accounts, etc. It is built into the other subhead costs.

How many corporate boxes does the body have at race meetings or other functions or activities?

Mr. Frank Ryan

There are no corporate boxes at race meetings or Croke Park. We have six premium seats and we are in the process of getting rid of them.

What about race meetings?

Mr. Frank Ryan

We have none.

Does the body sponsor races?

Mr. Frank Ryan

No.

That is fine. I have some other questions. On the invitation of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, €114 million was spent on the dairy industry and the point was made that the food industry was the biggest in the country. How much of that was added value?

We are modelling our industry on New Zealand, and its industry is at a crossroads currently in terms of costs at farm level. Jobs are very important in rural Ireland, particularly in rural Munster, as I found recently when I visited the area. We do not have added value but we are modelling ourselves on the New Zealand industry, which produces 15 million or even 17 million tonnes of milk. It is in the southern hemisphere and we are in northern Europe. Why do we not consider the Danish industry, which is an equivalent in terms of output, as it produces 5 million or 6 million tonnes of milk? It has a significant amount of jobs in all the food industries, including bacon production and dairy. It has much added value. We also have added value, although it more like commodity. What is Enterprise Ireland's policy in that area? It has responsibility for the food industry.

Mr. Frank Ryan

With regard to food processing, the Government's decision to support the dairy fund was very welcome and the capital investment of over €300 million will make a substantial difference in the sector. It is a very important sector to us, as the current prices in the dairy sector are a matter of considerable concern to us coming off a period where only 15 months ago there was a drought in parts of the world, a lack of supply in dairy products and a substantial increase in the price offered.

If one transacts in the commodity end of the market, one is affected by commodity prices worldwide. Nobody in Ireland sets the price as the worldwide price is set. We have a policy of working very closely with the companies concerned and we have supported them heavily in research and development. Glanbia has a substantial research and development centre which is now operational in Kilkenny and we believe that value added is the way to go for the sector.

In addition, we have set up a new competence sector for food ingredients. I will ask my colleague Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin to comment on that.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

We agree completely that the future of the food industry is dependent on value being added and moving it far away from commodity. In the dairy industry, where milk as a commodity has the potential to be turned into ingredients and use those ingredients to add value, we have made, together with the four large dairy companies, a major investment in a centre of expertise that is centralised in the University College, Cork, and Moorepark. The University of Limerick and UCD are also involved and we are investing €20 million over five years. There is also investment from companies in creating a very large centre that will focus specifically on the possible uses of milk as a value-added product. This is an example of exactly what the Deputy stated, as we need to invest heavily in order to get maximum value from the commodity.

We are also supporting individual companies such as Glanbia and smaller companies with in-house research and development. We regard the future of the food industry as being primarily dependent on their capability to innovate.

The witness did not answer my question as he spoke on a commodity-related issue. I am concerned here with added value and consideration of the Danish industry. Practically all fresh products on shelves in Ireland are imported, which is a serious indictment of somebody. We should have fresh products like cheeses, etc. One can go to Manchester and Liverpool and find many fresh Danish products on the shelves. We are continuously going away from where we were. The jobs are in those fresh products, as exemplified by the Danes, who are equivalent to us.

We have gone down the road of New Zealand, which has no relation to the Irish dairy industry. When we talk about it, we run away with it. We are losing our way. What we see in our shops is Brazilian products, New Zealand cheese, and bacon from somewhere else. Irish jobs are being lost and Irish farmers are being put at risk. That is the problem we are faced with. We must change the direction of the food industry. I have been saying this for some time and Mr. Ryan knows well my views on that.

Ingredients are only half the story. It goes further than that and more added value is possible. Thousands of jobs are being lost here. We have a small industry, but the two industries in Ireland on which we will depend in next five or six years are fishing and agriculture. There is nothing else there. I do not care what one brings in from abroad. I have been to Brazil and I know one would get more wages singing a song in an Irish pub than working in Brazil. We should be more vigilant of our own industry and our indigenous resources.

I have a question for Mr. Ryan. What is the relationship between Science Foundation Ireland and the universities in terms of research?

Professor Frank Gannon

It is strong and interdependent. The universities and the institutes of technology are where all our research is carried out. I do not know whether that answers the Deputy's question.

That is fine. University College Cork was one of the most innovative in the country at one time, with the National Microelectronics Research Centre. Is that still in existence. Does Science Foundation Ireland have a close relationship with that section of the university?

Professor Frank Gannon

With the NMRC?

Professor Frank Gannon

It has been renamed as the Tyndall Institute. It is a major centre which receives a large amount of funding, competitively, every year from us.

From Science Foundation Ireland?

Professor Frank Gannon

Yes.

What about co-ordination of spending on research among the various research units, such as Teagasc, Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland? What influence does Science Foundation Ireland have as an agency that gives leadership in this area?

Professor Frank Gannon

Co-ordination arises through defining the end-point, which means the industries that are of importance. These include the food industry, as the Deputy mentioned, which is funded predominantly by Teagasc, although we provide some support for it. The Alimentary Pharmabiotic Centre in UCC is one of the major centres in the probiotic area and we have been supporting this significantly for the last five or seven years. Teagasc is also involved in this regard. That is one area in which we work closely with Teagasc. With regard to IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland, I mentioned earlier that there is constant interplay between industries and our scientists. Intel, for instance, incorporates into its production in Ireland developments which are carried out by scientists whom we supported in one of our programmes. Microsoft is similar. IBM, when it was considering where to develop its new computers, went around the world and decided that the right location was Ireland, bringing together three or four different research groups we have supplied. This is the sort of interplay that goes on. We discuss this with IDA Ireland so it knows what is happening.

More specifically, one of the scientists in our internal programme has been seconded to the IDA for two years and is working in the US. For two months of the year he is with us and for the other ten he is with the IDA. There has been a great increase in the flow of information with regard to the needs of the IDA and the science that is going on in Ireland. Thus, we are integrating in both direct and indirect ways. The shift to cleantech, which is a new target, is another one that we are managing.

Professor Gannon stated that we are behind other countries, as we are at only half the OECD level of spending on research and development. The other countries are at 2.3% of GDP and we are at 1.5% or thereabouts. Does this represent all the agencies added together?

Professor Frank Gannon

That is not our figure. The figure is for Ireland's expenditure on research and development, which is defined by classical EU methods on which I do not want to get started or I would not get fully correct. However, by the standard mechanism, that is what it is. Our figure is about 1.6% of GDP, to get the record right, while the EU average is 1.9%, coming down slightly because of the new member states. However, this is not the SFI spend. In fact, the SFI spend is in the major competitive research area, so people can go looking for it. It is only 15% to 20% of the total spend on research and development, which is a much larger sum and includes spending by the HEA, which is a major component. We also interact with the HEA, particularly in terms of planning for infrastructure. A new round of its Programme for Research in Third Level Institutions, PRTLI, was announced recently, and that benefited from extensive discussions with us about where needs were likely to arise and how to match its strategic goals with those we are supporting.

How does the SFI measure the payback on the research?

Professor Frank Gannon

There are different measurements. There is one we can do directly, which is a measurement of manpower — how many researchers there are. In this regard we have plotted ourselves exactly in line with the expectations of SSTI, the science, technology and innovation strategy. We are on target year by year but we will slip this year because of funding changes. The number of publications is a measure of quality, and those figures are going up. The quality of these papers is another measure, which is also going up. This is described in the INDECON report.

Areas in which we contribute rather than hold responsibility include spin-off companies — it is not us that have handed over the baton to Enterprise Ireland and the technology transfer officers — and the investments made by the companies in industry. Ultimately, we should be measured based on business expenditure on research and development, BERD. If we were doing our job poorly this would not have risen, but it has risen.

I thank Professor Gannon and Mr. Ryan for their replies.

I have a few questions for Professor Gannon. We discussed the INDECON report in another committee and I know that over the years there have been value for money reports and so on. One of the recommendations of the INDECON report was that research funding at EU level, which was available, should be sought. Perhaps this is a question for the Department. Has anything happened in this regard?

Professor Frank Gannon

The research funding acquired by Ireland had become flat rather than continuing to grow, as one would have expected. That deserved some attention and we have given it attention. We have an annual meeting at which we bring all our researchers together and the strongest message we gave at that was that unless it increased we would make it a prerequisite for future funding. In other words, what we are doing at the moment is to make people report what they have applied for and what awards they have received. It is too early to see the impact of this.

Another action, as I mentioned in response to the question about the FÁS challenge, is that we are putting a message in our travel grants that applications to go to European laboratories are particularly welcome and useful. This is with the understanding that it is one way of building up connections. We are actively working on that.

A new report has just come out with regard to Ireland's involvement in one of the inter-governmental agencies at a European level. SFI has been asked to take responsibility for this and we are doing so. This is a recent development. We are acting on this, but there is a lag because there are not calls available in the EU at all times. However, the message has been clearly and unambiguously transferred to the scientists.

The Chairman asked about the FÁS science challenge and Professor Gannon made comments on it. I ask the representatives of the Department to comment on this also. What is its assessment of the FÁS science challenge? Is there an overlap? Could the money be spent in a better way? Professor Gannon made the point that he would not fund people to go abroad to study for PhDs as he would rather have the money spent here and research done in our own institutions. I think I understood that.

Mr. Aidan Hodson

Unfortunately I do not have any information on that issue. It is not an area that is within my responsibility.

I thought Mr. Hodson was in the area of SFI.

Mr. Aidan Hodson

Yes, but the science challenge is a FÁS programme.

So it does not come into Mr. Hodson's area of responsibility?

Mr. Aidan Hodson

I have no personal responsibility for it so unfortunately I have no information on it today, although I could come back to the Deputy with some information.

Is Mr. Hodson from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment?

Mr. Aidan Hodson

Yes.

Why would he not——

Mr. Aidan Hodson

I work in the office of science and technology.

Yes, that is what I thought. Mr. Hodson works in the office of science and technology but he is not aware of the FÁS programme?

Mr. Aidan Hodson

It was not an area with which I dealt. As it is a FÁS programme, it is a different part of the Department.

Perhaps somebody would consider that and get back to me.

Surely there is a need for a bit of joined-up thinking in the Department?

Mr. Aidan Hodson

I understand a study was done, but I was not party to it. I will get the information.

Will you, please?

Perhaps Mr. Hodson might pursue it because there might be an overlap about which to be aware. I have a final question for Professor Gannon. Have we made progress with regard to the number of second-level students who are taking up science at third level? Is this still a concern? The issue regularly comes up as an old chestnut. One hears comments from industry and in the media about the quality of people who are attracted to the sciences. I am sure it is necessary to attract a large pool of students into science, technology and engineering.

Professor Frank Gannon

It is and remains a concern. We cannot be an economy based on research and development, high tech and value-added work, all the areas to which we contribute, unless we have people coming through the system. Having said that, there are some surprising aspects. Ireland remains a country which has the most graduates per capita in the OECD countries coming through at third level in science, engineering and technology. I find that surprising. The question is, what happens to them, where do they go and what is their spread? We do not have enough engineers, for example, nor enough people with mathematical skills. If I might dare say it, as a biologist, some may be in areas of biology which may be softer or easier.

We need more people doing mathematics and engineering. The reason they are not taking these subjects is a good question. I believe it goes back to aspects such as finding models for these students. We are only starting to produce people who have done science, have ordinary and successful lives and have set up businesses. Science Foundation Ireland can trace a company called Opsona. We gave funding to researchers in Trinity College who set up a company which has raised €18 million and is continuing to grow. The more people can know about such things when they are deciding what to do with their careers the more likely they are to say, "This is not a strange job or something that unusual people do but is a normal task that normal people like me can do". We must establish those models and supply them to the secondary school system so that career guidance teachers know about them and are comfortable with the models. We are on the brink of changing the input, namely, what are the jobs and their accompanying payment, in order to shift away from a slightly stranger image.

The Young Scientists Exhibition is a great example of enthusiasm and commitment. Something happens that switches off that drive and I believe it has to do with the focus on points. People think they must get their heads around that, and then the next focus is on salaries and careers. We have not been able to deal with that as a collective.

May I add some information on the FÁS aspect? Dr. Graham Love has been involved in discussions within the Department through which a committee was established to examine this. He may be able to provide some helpful up to date information on the process.

Dr. Graham Love

I participated on a review group which looked at the performance of that FÁS science challenge programme, commissioned by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Although it was laudable in certain of its objectives, because of the lack of data concerning what the programme was intended to do and the deliverables it was intended to deliver, our review group was unable to recommend its continuation. I believe that was a major part of the decision to recommend a discontinuation. When we set up a programme in Science Foundation Ireland we are typically very clear about what it is intended to do. We lay down the metrics that will measure its success or failure and make decisions accordingly. That information was not available from FÁS, hence the decision.

That is very clear.

Mr. Ryan, what was the amount spent in 2007 on research and development? Was it €117 million or €114 million?

Mr. Frank Ryan

It was €114 million.

How was that figure broken down in terms of research and development, commercialisation potential of projects and research and market opportunities? What is the link? I am not entirely convinced there is a strong link between research and development done by SFI, what comes out after the research and how you take it over, and the resulting emphasis on exploiting in a positive way the research that has been done.

Mr. Frank Ryan

With the Chairman's permission I will ask Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin to comment on how the research is exploited and then ask Mr. Hopkins to comment with regard to the numbers.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

The expenditure of approximately €114 million under that heading is spent in two broad areas. Part of it is directly company-related, namely, grants we make directly into companies to support in-company research and development. These are projects put forward by companies regarding new products or, in the case of the food industry, new fresh foods, or whatever it might be.

A second element is the money we spend directly in the universities, which is probably the focus of the Chairman's question. We are investing money in order to secure the economic benefit of the research for Ireland. If one thinks of it very broadly, as Professor Gannon outlined, SFI and the Higher Education Authority are investing primarily in the research infrastructure and, in the case of SFI, within a very clear industrial focus. Our task is to work with the researchers in order to gain for Ireland the benefit of what is created through that investment. As we measure it, that benefit is economic. Our interest as an agency is in economic benefit to Ireland which translates primarily into two elements, namely, spin-out companies and into licences or transfer of knowledge from the universities into industry in Ireland, not necessarily our clients. We are primarily interested in the ways in which companies can benefit from university knowledge, whether they are foreign-owned or Irish.

We are spending approximately €40 million per year on that part of the activity. That figure is from memory. One thing we have done is to build up the technology transfer offices in the universities. We have our own staff on the ground as well and it is a very focused and active part of our activity. In terms of Ireland's priorities at the moment, this must be considered a key element of what we are doing. As we have all been saying, this is a very big investment in the research infrastructure in Irish terms, albeit not in international terms. The challenge for all of us now is to get benefit from it.

Finally, I would say there is very close co-operation between the agencies. A structure was established following recommendations of a body called, I believe, Technology Ireland, which was chaired by an assistant secretary in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Mr. Martin Shanagher, the head of the Office of Science,Technology and Innovation, OSTI. That body meets monthly and includes senior representatives from each of the agencies, our own, the IDA, SFI and the Higher Education Authority. All programmes concerning funding industry-related research in which we are collectively engaged are co-ordinated through that body. It was established about two years ago, is very active, meets very regularly and is very concerned with co-ordination of the State-run effort.

That is very helpful.

Mr. Paddy Hopkins

With regard to numbers, the €114 million is basically broken down in the following way: approximately €48 million is invested in industry, namely, direct client companies of Enterprise Ireland; €22 million goes into industry collaboration in the third-level sector; and €40 million is the realisation of the commercial potential of Ireland's research community. Mr. Ó Móráin outlined what is behind those two university-related groupings. The €48 million that goes into companies is by way of grant and, in quite a large number of instances, is in preference shares to fund that project or activity.

Is there any white smoke concerning the question asked by Deputy Shortall?

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Certainly. The Deputy looked for a breakdown of the senior management bonuses. First, the senior management bonuses we pay are within the terms of the review group of senior civil service. I believe this is the Buckley report although I do not know who is chairing it now. In the case of our chief executive, the report sets down precisely the salary and the bonus, and in the case of the senior management team we are linked directly to assistant secretaries in the Civil Service. The bonus system that applies is exactly the same one.

The Deputy asked about the highest bonus. In the year in question it was just over €40,000. That is a matter of public record because some time ago we supplied it in a parliamentary question. The other bonuses varied but ranged from about €16,000 down to about €10,000. It covers about 16 people.

Thank you very much. Has Mr. Buckley any concluding remarks?

Mr. John Buckley

I refer to several points made. We discussed two elements of the science and technology budget of the State today, what is dealt with through Enterprise Ireland and what is dealt with through Science Foundation Ireland. Overall in 2008 the State spent €2.6 billion in this area, or 1.6% of GDP, and €1.2 billion of that comes from the education budget.

I refer to a point made by Mr. Ó Móráin. The challenge is to manage commercialisation such that there is a return on the State investment. This applies to the university sector where there is a need to ensure the process of protecting intellectual property rights and licensing and so on are in place and exploiting research outputs to ensure they are optimised. Then there is the level of industry or industrial promotion. The challenge here is to ensure there is a pay-off for State assistance and investment in research and development. The point is that this pay-off will be increased to the degree that it is linked with commercialisation and market awareness. These two key points come out of the general discussion on the overall position.

I refer back to the computer system of which we spoke in the beginning. There are wider applications of the experience apart altogether from the experience of Science Foundation Ireland. It would suggest that organisations must manage some key risks in the area. The risks in question include the need to prove a concept to ensure all users will engage with the technical solution before we start, because ultimately technology is only one element of the solution. There must be a fit with the needs of the routines of the users and management and this is central to its success. Another risk which must be managed in computer developments it that it is very desirable to specify a project up-front and to try to avoid scope drift. Another lesson to emerge in this area is that there must be a single project owner, which is important to drive the day-to-day delivery of a project. The ultimate product of the development should not be accepted or paid for before a solution to the organisation's satisfaction is actually delivered to achieve value for money. These are the general points arising from the discussion that may have wider application.

Is it agreed that the committee dispose of the accounts of Enterprise Ireland for 2007 and the Science Foundation Ireland accounts 2007, in addition to chapter 6 of special report 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General? Agreed. There is no other business. I thank all the witnesses for their contributions and for their frank response to questions put by members. The next meeting is scheduled for Thursday, 25 June.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 25 June 2009.
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