COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 4 Feb 2010

Chapter 18 — Digital Mapping.

Special Report No. 69: Managing Sickness Absence in the Civil Service.

Ms Catherine Treacy (Chief Executive Officer, Property Registration Authority) called and examined.

Chairman

I welcome everybody from the relevant authorities. I draw everyone's attention to the fact that while members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Further, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the provision within Standing Order 158 that the committee will also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Ms Catherine Treacy, chief executive, Property Registration Authority, and I call on her to introduce her officials.

Ms Catherine Treacy

To my left is Mr. Diarmuid Clancy, director of operations, and Mr. Fran Leahy, human resources manager. To my right is Mr. James O'Boyle, finance manager, and Mr. Greg McDermott, director of ICT, information and communications technology.

Chairman

Everyone is very welcome. Will the officials from the Department of Finance introduce themselves?

Mr. David Denny

To my right is Mr. Garry Masterson, assistant principal, public service management division. To my left is Mr. Dermot Quigley, principal officer, sectoral policy division, and Ms Breda Scanlan and Ms Mary McKeown from the public service management division.

Chairman

The delegation is very welcome. I call on Mr. Buckley to introduce this session. The full text of Chapter 18 can be found in the annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General or on the website of the Comptroller and Auditor General at www.audgen.gov.ie.

Mr. John Buckley

The Property Registration Authority was established in 2006. The authority is a statutory body with a board, charged with the provision of property registration services. The chief executive of the new authority is its Accounting Officer. The Property Registration Authority comprises the former Land Registry, which records legal transactions or dealings in registered land, and the Registry of Deeds, which deals with transactions relating to title of unregistered property.

At this stage approximately 7% of land is unregistered. To address this issue, the Property Registration Authority has a compulsory first registration policy in certain counties. This was extended to 24 counties by 2009. It involves moving from using deeds alone to pass title to new owners to a situation in which land parcels being dealt in are recorded for the first time on Land Registry maps and folios. The service cost €46.2 million in 2008, some €33 million of which went on the cost of legal, mapping, drafting and administrative staff. It generated almost double that figure by way of fees, €65.6 million, and processed almost one quarter of a million legal transactions relating to land. The fee income declined in 2008 and this decline has been explained by a lower level of activity in the property market.

I refer to the 2008 annual report of Comptroller and Auditor General. During the past decade the Property Registration Authority has been engaged in developing on-line access to its services. The digital mapping project reviewed in chapter 18 of the report is an important part of this process. It is also a significant component of the overall e-Government programme, which, as in the case of other major e-Government projects, carries several risks that require active management. Elsewhere in my annual report, I reported on projects that had to be abandoned because of certain risks associated with innovation that actually materialised. The risks involved in such cases include the risk of the development not addressing identified needs; the risk of lack of user involvement and acceptance; the risk of the technical solution being overtaken by more cost-effective offerings; and an over-reliance on external sources in the development and delivery phases with a corresponding lack of internal capacity.

Having reviewed the Property Registration Authority's management of these risks, the audit concluded that reasonable steps had been taken to address the exposures and that the project had been well planned and built upon a comprehensive business case. The likely outturn in respect of costs is estimated at €26 million, which is within budget. With regard to project progress, the maps for 17 counties have been digitised by May 2009, the point at which we reported, and the project is expected to be fully completed by July or August of this year.

The authority reports that the use of digital mapping has led to the achievement of productivity gains, especially through a reduction in the level of mapping staff. The key risks to be managed include the need to ensure, through disaster recovery procedures, that business continuity is not disrupted in the new electronic registration system and to ensure any emergent mapping error patterns identified in the course of future dealings are addressed in a systematic way. In this respect, the Property Registration Authority has informed me that a formal written disaster recovery plan was already in place, but that it would need to be revised following the commissioning of a new disaster recovery site at the Waterford offices. The authority has strong quality assurance procedures to identify and rectify any boundary errors that may arise during the conversion process and, subsequent to that conversion process, only a small number of rectification cases had come to light in the course of its processing of dealings to date. The Accounting Officer will be in a position to update the committee on the project generally.

Chairman

Before I invite Ms Treacy to contribute, we are ordering business such that we hope to finish this session by 11.45 a.m. Then we will move on to dealing with the Office of Public Works and public procurement matters. We are dealing specifically with property registration authority, digital mapping and managing sickness absence in the Civil Service.

Ms Catherine Treacy

I am pleased to have been given this opportunity to appear before the committee to discuss these issues. Before turning to the matters themselves and since it is my first appearance before the committee, I wish to provide some brief background information on the organisation of the projects to add to the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The PRA, Property Registration Authority, was established on 4 November 2006. It is a statutory body, the members of which are appointed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. They are representatives of the main users and consumers of our property registration services. The PRA replaced the Registrar of Deeds and Titles as the registering authority with regard to property registration in Ireland. As the Comptroller and Auditor General noted, the main functions are to manage and control the Land Registry, which was established in 1892, and the Registry of Deeds, which has been in existence since 1707. There is a further mandate to promote and extend the registration of titled land.

The key contributions of the PRA to the Irish economy are to provide a register of title and to guarantee security for those dealing with property. The system of registration offered by the PRA provides a comprehensive record which is clear, easily accessible, minimises risk of fraud and responds to customer needs. By international comparison, Ireland has a very extensive and well developed system of land registration. It is changing on an ongoing basis but it is estimated that 93% of the total land mass of the State and almost 88% of the legal titles in Ireland are now registered in the Land Registry. Furthermore, an extensive programme is under way to advance the registration of the remaining titles.

From 1 January this year, compulsory registration applies in 24 of the 26 counties. The PRA provides the authoritative, centralised database of property ownership and related interests in Ireland. In recent years, we have seen a significant increase in the size of our database, with almost 1.9 million individual legal titles now constituting the Land Register. As the committee may be aware, the bulk of the PRA's customers are solicitors, financial institutions, professional law searching firms, public and local authorities, land surveyors, engineers, architects and estate agents.

The appropriation accounts have been referred to for Vote 23 in the amount of €46.2 million. Some 71% of this, or €32.883 million, represented staff costs, a substantial fixed cost. Of the remaining costs, some €4.65 million was paid in respect of our capital and current ICT costs, of which expenditure on digital mapping was the primary element. Our net expenditure for 2009 was €40.2 million, which represents a 13% reduction in costs compared to 2008. The draft Estimates for 2010 reflect a net Vote for the Property Registration Authority of €37.4 million, which, in turn, represents a 7% reduction on the 2009 outturn, so there are reducing costs.

As members may be aware, the Property Registration Authority charges a fee for many of its services. That fee is determined by ministerial order. In 2008, fee income was of the order of €65.6 million while in 2009, due to a reduced level of property transactions, fee income was €40 million. There has been no increase in fees charged since 2000.

The investment in technology has been considerable. The whole thrust of the organisation over recent years has been to link the business goals of the organisation with the optimum technological solutions. Those are the strategies we have followed and I am pleased to say they have been successful. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to our digital mapping productivity.

The technology that has been implemented over a nine year period since 2000 has resulted in a year on year increase in productivity of 120%. Of those cases where no query is raised — whether the transfer of a full piece of land where no mapping is required or no query is raised — we are in a position to process 76% of those within 15 days of lodgment. Where a mapping process is required and where no query is raised, in the digitised counties where the digitisation has been completed, 70% of those transfers are now completed within 30 days of lodgement. They are the productivity gains from all the IT advancements up to the digital mapping.

The other improvements which have come from all of that have been very much customer focused. More than 98% of our customers now access our services via the Internet. Currently, almost 15,000 professional users access our on-line services on an ongoing basis. During 2009, almost 2.5 million business transactions were conducted through the www.landirect.ie portal. Almost 100% of some applications are now made on-line. In excess of 4,000 on-line fee paying transactions per day are conducted and an even larger number of free services are provided for customers through the Internet. Some 100% of registrations are made on the electronic register.

I refer to the digital mapping project which the Comptroller and Auditor General outlined. We had some key objectives in this regard. The first was to secure the register map data. At the commencement of this project, the boundaries of the 2.5 million or so land parcels registered in the Land Registry were retained and displayed on approximately 32,000 paper map sheets, mostly A0 in size, maintained by the organisation. Customers wishing to inspect these maps had to visit the Property Registration Authority offices in person. Much of this map record was in a fragile, vulnerable state and was proving very expensive and very difficult to maintain and refresh. Digitising the map was, therefore, seen as the best way to preserve and enhance this invaluable asset, thus fulfilling a major role in the Property Registration Authority's business continuity plan. If anything happened all those paper documents, we would not have been in a position to provide the service.

The second objective was to provide faster and better service delivery. Key performance indicators that the Property Registration Authority is measured against include the time taken to process a case and the accessibility and availability of the register for inspections. Both of these areas have improved significantly with the implementation of the digital map.

The third objective was to make improved use of staff resources. The manual map update was very time consuming and inflexible and it was only possible to use a limited number of tools to increase the efficiency. The digital mapping system is fully incorporated into the existing integrated title registration systems, so it is a seamless system. That is one of its strengths. It is not stand-alone and is fully integrated into the existing system. That streamlines work processes, reduces costs and increases the operational effectiveness of the organisation.

I refer to the expected efficiency gains. The original business case for digital mapping presented to the Department of Finance set out the resource savings and the wider benefits expected to accrue from the implementation. The first was a reduction in the required number of staff engaged in the copy map process. It was estimated that there would be a 40% increase in productivity in mapping output. It was estimated that there would be annual savings of €2.8 million arising in respect of the ongoing reconstruction of paper maps which would be unnecessary in the digital environment. There would be a reduced floor space requirement for the storage of paper maps.

One of the other benefits was that there would be an increased range of services for our customers via http://www.landirect.ie/ leading to increase in on-line transactions. That http://www.landirect.ie/ is the portal through which the Property Registration Authority provides its on-line services.

Subsequent to the preparation and acceptance of the business case, the Department of Finance granted sanction for this digital mapping project in May 2004. Following a detailed procurement process, the Property Registration Authority launched its five year digital mapping project in July 2005. As the Comptroller and Auditor General stated, the initial projected cost was €28.1 million. It is expected that on completion of the project, the overall cost will be of the order of €25.69 million.

The project was undertaken in two phases. Phase I was to successfully make available key geographical locator points for the entire country in order that every piece of land in Ireland could be accessed through what we call a seedpoint which would then connect to the legal title. This phase was completed on time and within budget. Customers of www.landirect.ie could from July 2006 avail of on-line map searches for the entire country from their own offices. They no longer had to come to the Property Registration Authority offices and try to locate the paper maps. The great benefit of this was that there was availability for multi-access. It was not a matter of coming to look for a paper map which was not available because somebody else was using it.

There is ongoing implementation of phase II. Further to the successful implementation of phase I, phase II continues to be implemented on an incremental basis. It is the larger part of the project and relates to the digitisation of each registered land parcel in the State on a county by county basis. By the end of 2009, some 22 counties were fully digitised, with upwards of 2.2 million of the country's 2.5 million land parcels being completed at that point.

The impact on productivity has been considerable. There were two elements to the productivity gains to be achieved. These were the improved productivity to be achieved from the automation of the process of producing maps of individual titles — we call them copy filed plans — requested by customers and increased productivity in regard to the efficiency with which changes to the map can be carried out on foot of transfers of sites and other subdivisions, for example. While the efficiencies achieved to date are evident, it will only be possible to assess the full productivity gains as part of the post-project implementation review of digital mapping, which will be undertaken at the beginning of 2011.

To date, we can see that the levels of staff required in respect of the production of filed plans will be reduced by 80% on the full completion of the process. In preparing the business case for the project, it was estimated that there would be a 40% efficiency improvement in mapping casework. The actual productivity gains achieved in the earlier counties where digitisation has been completed illustrate gains way beyond those in the business case.

As the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General notes, productivity gains ranging from 56% to 83% in different functional areas have been achieved to date, depending on the length of time since the implementation in that county and bedding down time. The different functional areas in the Property Registration Authority process different types of cases — for example, long possession cases, transfer of part, leases, etc.

The completion of the digital mapping project in mid-2010 will represent a major milestone in the modernisation programme in the Property Registration Authority and will build on all that has been done to date. At that point, all of the Land Registry public documents and maps will be fully digitised and available on-line. The Property Registration Authority is well placed to meet the challenges and avail of the opportunities of e-registration and e-conveyancing which is Government backed.

Chairman

I thank Ms Treacy. May we publish her statement?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and Ms Treacy for their statements. Looking through the figures, Vote 23, subhead A3, the incidental expenditure looks very high and I have picked out a few items. Before I come to that, what will be the impact of the an bord snip nua proposals if implemented?

Ms Catherine Treacy

As the Deputy is aware, an bord snip nua recommended that the Valuation Office and Ordnance Survey Ireland be merged with the Property Registration Authority. There has been no Government decision on that matter to date.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Does Ms Treacy have a view on the matter?

Ms Catherine Treacy

In the context of the an bord snip nua report, I have always accepted that there are certain synergies in respect of the organisations in question. On any of these policy decisions that have been made, the important point is that such mergers should be well planned, structured and thought out. As already stated, there are synergies within these organisations but there are obvious obstacles as well. The Valuation Office, the Property Registration Authority and Ordnance Survey Ireland all deal with maps but there are all sorts of variations in that regard. Some jurisdictions have gone that way and chosen the type of model in question. We will await a policy decision on the matter from the Minister.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

So Ms Treacy has no view on how a merger would improve the efficiency or status of her organisation.

Chairman

This is a policy issue and, in fairness, it is not the responsibility of Ms Treacy to comment on it.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

The figure for incidental expenses is almost €4.2 million. Under this subhead, what gave rise to the amounts paid out in respect of car parking and spring water?

Ms Catherine Treacy

The figure for car parking relates to an amount paid in respect of the car park used by staff of the old Registry of Deeds. The Honourable Society of the King's Inns took a more commercial approach to the car park and began charging a fee in respect of it. I assure the Deputy that this has been discontinued.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Why was a cost incurred in respect of spring water?

Ms Catherine Treacy

That cost arose because we had no fresh water supply into the Chancery Street building and there were also problems with the water. In view of health and safety concerns, we were obliged to procure supplies of spring water. We have taken steps to try to get connections from the mains into the building in order that this practice might also be discontinued.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Compensation of approximately €350,000 was paid out. What was the reason for this?

Ms Catherine Treacy

The Land Registry, which is part of the Property Registration Authority, guarantees title to property. If an error is made by the Land Registry which results in a loss, compensation will have to be paid. Most claims do not end up with a payment being made. However, payments were made in certain circumstances. The figure provided represents the composite amount for such payments made in that year. It is covered with the guaranteed title of the Land Registry.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

What gave rise to the figure of €1.5 million paid to Ordnance Survey Ireland in respect of digital mapping?

Ms Catherine Treacy

We are obliged to pay Ordnance Survey Ireland an ongoing amount for the use of its maps and also in respect of copyright, licences and updating of its data. As part of the digital map project, we paid Ordnance Survey Ireland almost €50 million. There will be an ongoing amount to be paid. Ordnance Survey Ireland has a commercial mandate and set its own fees. The fees we paid to it were sanctioned by the Department of Finance.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Is value for money being obtained in this regard?

Ms Catherine Treacy

The fee was sanctioned by the Department of Finance. Ordnance Survey Ireland is a commercial organisation which sets its own fees. We are dependent upon it for the regular updating and use of its maps. It is the national State authority.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

How many offices does the Property Registration Authority operate at present?

Ms Catherine Treacy

In Dublin, we have offices in Chancery Street, the Setanta Centre and the Registry of Deeds building and a storage facility, which is manned by our staff, in Santry. We also have offices in Waterford and we have despatched an advance party of 75 staff to Roscommon.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Are there plans to fully decentralise the authority's operations to a single site?

Ms Catherine Treacy

No. As originally envisioned, there will be three bases, namely, at Dublin, Waterford and Roscommon.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

How many sites will this involve?

Ms Catherine Treacy

We have hopes of rationalising our Dublin operations to one site. In that context, a site opposite that which we currently occupy in Chancery Street has been earmarked for us and purchased by the OPW. However, this project has been delayed because a number of different archaeological digs took place at the site. The Deputy may have seen news reports regarding finds made at the site. It is hoped that we will rationalise our operations in Dublin into that one office and that we will also have our offices in Roscommon and Waterford. This will allow us to service the country in a good and efficient manner.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Does the authority subcontract work to firms outside the country?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Our digital map project went to tender. The main contractor involved was an English firm, which then subcontracted work to other companies. A large part of the digitisation of the maps was carried out in India.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

How satisfactory was the work in that regard?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Excellent. The centre at Noida, India, is recognised as a global centre of excellence and we have certainly found it to be so.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

At a time of high unemployment on the island of Ireland, did the authority obtain better value for money as a result of its use of this centre?

Ms Catherine Treacy

We followed the procurement process which is governed by the relevant EU regulations and guidelines. That was the tender which presented the best option.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Are there people in this country who are qualified to carry out work of this nature?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Before we chose that option, we considered the business case in respect of digital mapping and we established a task force involving ourselves and Ordnance Survey Ireland. We were obliged to accept that we would not have the resources nor the particular skills necessary to undertake the project on our own. Having done that we prepared a business case in respect of which we also obtained outside opinion. We would not have been able to do it on our own.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

What kind of skills do those involved in carrying out the work possess?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Most of them are PhD graduates who possess particular skills. The skills involved are extremely specialised.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I am of the view that we should be looking more towards home-based expertise in this regard, particularly in light of the current crisis in respect of unemployment.

Ms Catherine Treacy

Unfortunately, we are obliged to adhere to the regulations and guidelines which govern the procurement process. When the Comptroller and Auditor General examined this matter he found that what we did conformed to those rules and regulations.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I am concerned with regard to the high number of sick days taken by members of staff of the authority. Of the 29 organisations audited by this committee, the authority registered the highest number of sick days among its staff, with an average of 15.94 sick days, whereas the figure relating to the staff of the Oireachtas is 6.46. Is Ms Treacy in a position to indicate why the number of sick days taken — at a huge cost to the organisation and the State — is so high? Are such days being taken as a result of stress? Is there a lack of efficiency within the organisation? This is an issue which must be addressed.

Ms Catherine Treacy

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report identified stress as an issue within the public sector. From our point of view, the level of sick leave absences in the organisation is a matter of serious concern. Some 90% of all the sick leave taken by the staff of the authority was certified by registered medical practitioners. So it is only the balance that is self-certified. Of the total number of staff within the organisation, 44% took three days sick leave or less. Some 24% of staff took no sick leave at all. I do not want it to appear that everyone in the organisation took a high number of sick days. A total of 20 people accounted for almost 30% of the sick leave taken.

As already stated, this is a matter of some concern to us. We follow the Department of Finance's regulations in respect of sick leave very closely. We have already implemented many of the recommendations in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. We are in the process of drafting our HR strategy on absence management. We hope this will be aided by the discussions taking place with the Department of Finance which, in turn, is involved in discussions with the unions with regard to updating the rules and regulations pertaining to sick absences. We will be interested in the outcome of that process. We are awaiting the signing off of our own HR strategy on sick absences.

Lest anyone should think that action is not being taken, we are being extremely proactive in respect of this matter. We liaise, on a regular basis, with the Office of the Chief Medical Officer, CMO, and we follow the advice provided in respect of different cases. The organisation referred 70 cases to the CMO in 2009. We also liaise with the employee assistance officer and make staff aware of the facilities on offer in this regard. A total of 11 staff were formally referred to the employee assistance officer in 2009.

We are active in trying to manage this matter. As already stated, however, we look forward to the outcome of the ongoing discussions relating to the updating of the regulations which govern the taking of sick leave. We will apply any new regulations in a stringent manner.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

When compared with other Departments and agencies that are audited by this committee, it looks quite bad in my eyes and in the eyes of most of the public. There is a need for corrective action to reduce the figure, which puts a substantial cost on the PRA.

Ms Catherine Treacy

We are very aware of that, because as the Deputy knows, we operate very much to try to keep within our costs all the time. We have done so. However, we have been most proactive in ensuring we have a very robust time and attendance system. I think it is possibly a bit unique because all grades are represented by that. It records all attendance and indeed it is very robustly built. It is an automated on-line system and it would also record any absences, which then must be accounted for. It is a very complete system of attendance. That is one of the first things one has to do when dealing with the issue. We have identified the extent of it and are absolutely positive. I can assure the Deputy that any absences are recorded in that system. Certainly we now have to deal with it.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

The PRA is top of the league.

Have all the counties been digitised or what progress has been made in that regard?

Ms Catherine Treacy

We have four counties left to digitise. Some 22 counties have been digitised. Tipperary, Offaly, Waterford and Galway remain to be done. They will be digitised this year. We are looking to complete that entire project by the third quarter of this year.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

Is the PRA meeting any difficulties with digitising any areas?

Ms Catherine Treacy

We have been very proactive in dealing with our customers and letting them know what is coming down the line. We had sessions with the different bar associations and when we would be moving into a county where we would have to, as we say, freeze the registrations in that county, we would put solicitors on notice and then we also try to — as we always do, I hope, with our customers — deal with any particular case which would need to be expedited. We have found that we have not had any difficulties. We have had great co-operation from our customers because I think word has got out of the benefits once a county is digitised and of how easy life is going to be. It is on that incremental basis that we have built up a good trust in the system.

Deputy Edward O’Keeffe

I thank Ms Treacy for answering my questions.

Chairman

Deputy Edward O'Keeffe asked about sick leave. As he said the PRA is top of the league in terms of sick days per whole time equivalent for the ratio of sick days lost to staff in the department. Ms Treacy outlined the steps taken to improve the situation. Does the Department of Finance have any views on this situation? Is the Department satisfied that all steps are being taken to deal with the issues highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his report of August 2009?

Ms Mary McKeown

The Department of Finance very much welcomes the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is very timely and informs the ongoing development of policy in the Department and for the Civil Service generally. We take sick leave and attendance very seriously. We commend the PRA on the work it has done in recording time and attendance and the measures it is taking to tackle sick leave. We are working at a central level to develop a new policy. It has been prepared. We were working on it in tandem with the preparation of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Many of the measures we are taking reflect the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations. The policy is ready. We have presented it to the unions and are working it through with them. We hope to have it out very shortly. We are making good progress in discussions there. That is the environment in which we operate. We consult with the staff representatives and the unions.

The next step, when we have the policy published, is to update the circulars. What we have done with the policy is that we have reflected the nature of the diversity and complexity of the Civil Service workforce. Things that influence sick leave are things like age profile, gender breakdown and family responsibilities. There are statutory obligations on the Civil Service. They are factors that would have been in play with the Property Registration Authority. It is incumbent on us as State employers to reflect those strategies. What we do in taking seriously the sick leave is that very serious implications follow from an officer's sick leave. An officer's career can be affected very seriously if their absences indicate that they cannot be relied upon to give good service. Sick leave has a very important role in the assessment of suitability for promotion. There is a strict limit on the number of days' sick leave an officer can have. Then there are procedures in place to deal with abuse. Sick leave rates are closely monitored by Departments. Abuse of sick leave regulations can lead to severe penalties, including dismissal, withholding of salary increments and withdrawal of sick pay privileges.

In the policy we have worked on, which we hope to publish very shortly, all of these regulations are set down very clearly. They are already in place. It is a matter for line Departments to manage these effectively. We are restating and updating these, putting them in the context of the overall effective management of attendance across the service.

Chairman

Arising from what Ms McKeown said, are there Departments and offices that are not recording attendances on a daily basis?

Ms Mary McKeown

No, it is very much a matter for Departments to do this. Departments are recording. Sorry, what I meant is no, there are no Departments that are not. Departments are recording and managing sick leave. We have ultimate responsibility for the regulation in the Civil Service overall. The day-to-day management is a matter for Departments and Departments all have HRM systems in. My colleague on the IT side can——

Chairman

What are HRM systems?

Ms Mary McKeown

Human resource management systems. Sick leave is monitored. There are recommendations in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report about the local departmental management at least once a year analysing and reviewing the data and working closely with the CMO, the chief medical officer, and with the Department of Finance on strategies. The IT systems are in place to record data. It is incumbent on Departments to analyse and monitor that and give feedback. They work closely with the CMO in extreme cases. We would have cases where people would be retired on ill health grounds. That is where the office of the CMO comes into play. There are sanctions if there is an abuse of sick leave privileges.

Chairman

What is the estimate of days lost through sick leave in monetary terms?

Ms Mary McKeown

I do not have the exact data on that.

Chairman

A figure of €64 million is mentioned in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report.

Ms Mary McKeown

Some €64 million. Then the Comptroller and Auditor General mentions that there are indirect costs that may be even higher. I can come back to the Chairman with a technical note on that, but I do not have——

Chairman

I would appreciate that if Ms McKeown would not mind. Does the HRM system, about which I asked, only record sickness and not attendance?

Ms Mary McKeown

I think Mr. Masterson might be able to answer that.

Mr. Gary Masterson

The HR management system records a full variety of sick leave and special leave. Day-to-day attendance is managed by the time and attendance system — a clocking system if one likes.

Chairman

I ask Mr. Masterson to repeat that.

Mr. Gary Masterson

A clocking system. A time and attendance system records as one goes in and out. The sick leave and the full remit of special leave we offer are all recorded on the HR management system.

Chairman

Does the HRM system not record attendances?

Mr. Gary Masterson

It does not record daily attendances. It records the absences.

Chairman

Is there any system to record attendances? Is there clocking in?

Mr. Gary Masterson

There is a clocking system in each organisation and each organisation adheres strictly to those clocking systems.

Chairman

Are there any comparative data between public bodies and the private sector for days lost through sickness?

Ms Mary McKeown

We have been in contact with IBEC to find out about the information it has. We are working with it. We do not have detailed comparative data and a simple comparison is not possible. We are going to try to work on that.

Chairman

Why is that the case?

Ms Mary McKeown

The definitions that are used for average sick leave are slightly different. We understand that in the private sector things like public holidays do not count as sick leave and depending on how sick leave occurs in the public sector, public holidays are counted. There are not direct comparisons, but I know the Comptroller and Auditor General's report has mentioned some comparisons. One of the things we intend to do in our policy is to look at not just the private sector but also sick leave in other public administrations.

Chairman

I thought it was fundamental to have a comparative study before proceeding to implement a new policy.

Ms Mary McKeown

We will and we are taking on board everything in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Ms Catherine Treacy

The PRA has fully automated time attendance which is reconciled with sick leave absences. It is a very robust system and there is no way of circumventing it. The HR section reconciles all the time and attendance records with the sick leave, as recorded — to address the point made and that to which the Comptroller and Auditor General alluded in his report — as well, as regards some inconsistencies. These would not have been deliberate, and I have raised this matter with him before. When we were filling out the records the data included all absences, including absence to do with people suffering from disabilities, and the Comptroller and Auditor General noted that some 13 Departments did not include that detail. Obviously, this is very difficult to benchmark. In one respect it is like apples and oranges. I am not saying one way is right and another is not. However, we decided to put everything in, and the PRA has quite a high percentage of people suffering from disabilities, as recognised by the National Disability Authority — equivalent to 7%, which is the highest of the 29 offices that were audited.

We do not want to be on the top, it is not good and we are determined to improve, but in fairness to what I have alluded to, namely, the fact that almost half the staff do not take sick leave, it is important that this should be on the record. Our system has been alluded to as being "wanting" and different approaches were taken as regards the submission of returns. Whether this is right I am not saying, but we included the disability leave and others did not.

Chairman

In supplying the committee with the technical note, as promised, perhaps Ms McKeown would do an assessment of how robust the systems are in different Departments, taking into consideration what Ms Treacy said and comparing what she has outlined with other Departments. Can the PRA be satisfied that there is a robust system within Government agencies and Departments?

Ms Mary McKeown

I will indeed.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

Would Ms Treacy not accept the PRA is an unusual public service body in that its running costs are all paid for by the customer, the individual registering his or her title or otherwise dealing with it? It is essentially a customer-orientated body akin to a private sector company giving a service. In fact, based on her figures, the Exchequer makes a profit out of this.

Ms Catherine Treacy

We have had surpluses in the past. The Deputy is quite right, and the Act will say the PRA operates on a self-sufficient basis. We have been managing to do that, because we have been reducing costs, but this year we have arrived at a point where we will be breaking even. The figures from last year reveal the drop-off in the property market, and so we will have broken even in that regard.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

The PRA has fewer customers at the moment.

Ms Catherine Treacy

We have fewer transactions, but we still took in €40 million and there were almost 186,000 cases, so it is not as if the whole thing has just come to a shuddering halt, but activity certainly has dropped off.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

What is the number of employees?

Ms Catherine Treacy

The number of employees has been dropping. Since mid-2008 we have dropped 100 staff. In addition, overtime has stopped because we did not have the capacity and as well as that we were coming downstream----

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

The workload is coming down.

Ms Catherine Treacy

The workload is reducing. On that basis the number of people doing overtime normally would equate to 40, and we took no term-time people in, so that would equate to another ten. Since mid-2008 we are down the equivalent of 150 staff, and the current number of employees is 615.

The staff numbers are dropping but during the boom years, even though our productivity increased by in excess of 120%, it just was not possible — because we did not grow the organisation to deal with that volume of work — to deal with all that came in, so there are arrears in the workload which we are now reducing. We knocked 32,000 cases of the workload last year.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

May I preface my further questions by saying that any contact I have had with individuals in the PRA, or the Land Registry as it was, elicited a very helpful response at all times. However, I am somewhat concerned about the overall attitude of the organisation. Is there an understanding within the PRA that it is a body giving a service to customers around the country, people dealing in property transactions, the individual buying his or her house or selling a plot, and there is a responsibility to ensure that a good, efficient and effective service is made available?

I hear references to "taking sick days" and so on which prompts me to ask whether there is an attitude among staff that there is entitlement, if not to be ill, at least to take a certain number of sick days every year, irrespective of the state of their health?

Ms Catherine Treacy

To take the point that the Deputy makes, I am glad to say that his experiences as regards the reactions of PRA staff in dealing with him are being replicated and I get similar reports constantly from members of the Law Society. He is not unique as regards the very positive responses he gets from staff. We have a very strategic approach to managing our business. The PRA is run very much along the lines of a business, and there is an overall strategic plan. That feeds right down to the individual plans, so that everyone in the organisation has a transparent output. There is no question of anyone not being accountable. There are individual business plans, and a performance management development system, PMDS, where people have to deal with their line managers and say what they are going to achieve during the year. That works right up into the overall strategic plan, so there is no question of anyone being unaware that he or she is servicing the customer.

The PRA is a very accessible organisation. The regional managers' names and phone numbers are on the leaflets we distribute and I get constant calls. One of the positive sides of the organisation is the fact that we are very customer focused. It is difficult to reconcile, I appreciate, and we have a strategy for further reducing the sick leave record, but as the Comptroller and Auditor General indicated, there were possibly inconsistencies as regards some of the approaches taken. We certainly have a sick leave absence record that I should like to see very much reduced, and we are working very strongly on this. The issues we outlined on the number of cases we refer confirms this, we defer increments and do not allow people to go forward for promotion in certain instances. The PRA is seen to be quite strong in that regard, and some 90% of the sick leave is certified.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

I think it is generally accepted that much progress is being made at every level. However, these are obviously issues of concern for those of us who have to raise them at PAC hearings.

Ms Catherine Treacy

They are of concern to ourselves, too, I can assure the Deputy.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

There are two further such issues I want to ask about. A great deal of progress appears to have been made in mapping, the digitisation process and so on. However, there seem to be continuing delays in some areas, such as adverse possession cases, "section 49s", first registrations and so on. Those delays appear to be continuing. Is there any strategy in place to deal with this?

Ms Catherine Treacy

They are all part of our plans. As regards "section 49s" it is a question of someone attempting to establish title where there is no documentation for the most part. We have discussed this with our people who deal with this area. I believe the position is that 0% of such cases are capable of being completed on the basis of the documentation lodged by solicitors. One starts from there and has to build up the individual case. Of its nature it will take a considerable amount of time, with notices being issued, and we have a finite number of staff that can be allocated to this work. With regard to the first registration cases, as the Deputy will be aware, these are frequently complex. We have dealt with all the economic data on the major infrastructural projects, such as the Luas and DART lines and the major road projects. Again we have a finite number of staff, and unfortunately we shall now have fewer because of the numbers we have lost and the moratoriums on recruitment. There are therefore fewer staff dealing with those cases, but we are hopeful that under the new Land and Conveyancing Act that some of the benefits flowing from that such as the reduced number of years as regards title, etc., will have beneficial effects for the PRA. It is a complex area that just takes time.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

That leads me to another point. There appears to be a shortage of expert people for dealing with such specialist areas.

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

The authority operates under the banner of the State. It sells its services and charges people for those services. The person who applies for first registration of their title pays a fee to have that done. The authority is in an unusual situation. The public service embargo probably applies, yet it is a body selling its services. Can some way not be found to get the specialist people it needs to deal with this area and ensure the authority sells those services efficiently, which it cannot do if it does not have the staff? Does the authority have a plan to deal with that?

Ms Catherine Treacy

We are always in discussions with the Department of Finance, but we have moved from a situation where we had 17 legally qualified staff, which was quite small considering the volume of cases and the fact that we cover the entire 26 Counties, to having 12.3 now. We have an issue there. However, every Department is suffering from cutbacks and we all must live within our means. We are struggling with that issue. We have endeavoured to ensure that the quality of work coming in to us is improved as well. It is a very complex area and we are very conscious that we have quite a limited expertise and it resides within the organisation. Obviously, in any practice, no matter how big, one cannot do enough of those types of cases to build up an expertise, nor would it be commercially viable. We have tried to send out some of our legally qualified people to the Bar Council and solicitors to talk through some of the cases and help them.

We have also pushed the prospect of moving to what is referred to as Form 3 cases, which is where a solicitor can certify the title. Instead of it coming to the Property Registration Authority, where the entire title has to be investigated, if the solicitor is prepared to certify the title in Form 3, that would greatly help our ability to deal with the cases. We have conducted many road shows to try to encourage that down the line. It is still quite limited. There is reluctance and there are many issues involved. Solicitors have their own issues with insurance and so forth. However, we are certainly trying to push Form 3. It would be a great help to us, but its use is not increasing at the level we would like.

Chairman

The question deserves a response from the Department of Finance.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

I was coming to that. According to the figures, the Department of Finance received €0.75 million of the surplus fees paid by people for the delivery of a service which the registry is restricted from delivering due to lack of expertise. I am aware of all the arguments in favour of a general public service embargo on recruitment, but is this not taking money under false pretences to some extent? The Exchequer is taking €0.75 million from the registry but is not allowing the registry to engage the specialist staff it requires to provide the service for which it has been paid.

Mr. David Denny

May I respond, Chairman?

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. David Denny

There are two different issues here. On the one hand there are the operational constraints and efficiencies of the Property Registration Authority. We are very much aware that the organisation has delivered significant efficiencies in its operations, particularly with digitalisation and other technological advances. On the other hand, there are a number of public service organisations which, in their day-to-day operations, cover their own costs because of the way and the type of business in which they operate. The Government has taken a decision that there is a need to reduce public service numbers, because in the long term every public service employee represents a significant State liability between salary costs, future pension costs and so forth. Although, on paper, bodies such as the Property Registration Authority, the Revenue Commissioners and some of the regulatory authorities would be seen to be well covering their immediate operating costs, and not to deny the value of the work they are doing——

Chairman

If an organisation can put forward a business plan to the Department that will give it a return for investment in a few extra solicitors, for example, to add to its service, the dead hand of the embargo should not be inflexible. If a business plan is put forward that would be revenue positive, the embargo should come off those organisations that can justify recruitment on economic grounds.

Mr. David Denny

This is why the Minister for Finance last year announced that what he was putting in place was not an embargo per se but a moratorium which allowed a degree of flexibility. We allow exceptions in some limited cases. There is no shortage of organisations who are convinced that the merits of their case are overwhelming. Unfortunately, it is always a role of the Department of Finance to look at these cases with a more jaundiced eye and in some cases to say there are limited grounds for making exceptions. We have allowed exceptions for some organisations, depending on the nature of the pressures.

Chairman

Can you give some examples?

Mr. David Denny

I can give them in a note to the Deputy. It would have been in the answers to various parliamentary questions about exceptions to the moratorium.

Chairman

However, you cannot give examples to the committee.

Mr. David Denny

There would have been the Revenue Commissioners and the Prison Service. I cannot recall them all but I can get the information to the Deputy.

Chairman

That is not good enough. There should be a positive approach to this. You are saying that every organisation can make its case, but you have a judgment call to make and you are not making it.

Mr. David Denny

We do make a judgment call in each case.

Chairman

We have no evidence of that. You cannot give us examples.

Mr. David Denny

I am sorry, Chairman. I said the answers have been given in the House already. They are on the public record. I apologise that I do not have the details off the top of my head but I will be happy to provide them to the committee.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

Does Mr. Denny not accept that, to some degree, people might have a view that the Department of Finance or the Exchequer is taking money from the customers who pay the registration authority, whose surplus goes to the Department at the end of the year, but the Department is then not allowing the authority to do the job for which that money was paid? Is that not, to some degree, taking money under false pretences?

Mr. David Denny

I would not accept that the registry is not performing its functions. All of the evidence——

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

It is restricted in performing its functions if it does not have the expertise available to deal with specialist cases.

Mr. David Denny

It is fully accepted that there are restrictions on every public service organisation. However, given the evidence of the Comptroller and Auditor General in his report, for example, on the success with which the organisation has brought forward the digital mapping project, it is clear that resources have been made available to allow the PRA to achieve its aims.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

I accept that.

Mr. David Denny

Unfortunately, every organisation operates within limits, and in the current climate the Department of Finance is not in a position to say there are no limits on resources.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

We can only make the point that this is not an ordinary Civil Service organisation. It is selling a service to the people, who need that service to be delivered effectively and efficiently.

There is a further point about staffing. I have been told that a rule has been introduced in the authority in the past week to the effect that no transactions will be formally completed at present and notices of completion will not be issued. If that is so, is there any understanding on the part of the organisation and the staff of the appalling consequences it could have, not for the Government or the Department of Finance, but for unfortunate individuals who could be left waiting for their titles to be completed, which they have paid the registry to complete? What is the story in that regard?

Ms Catherine Treacy

What the Deputy is referring to is part of the ongoing service-wide industrial action.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

Yes.

Ms Catherine Treacy

This is one of the steps that has been indicated to us as a way of demonstrating the feelings of the authority's staff on the instruction of their various unions. It is just something that has arisen this week. As most people will be aware, there is no clear-cut strategic plan outlined by the unions as to the various steps they will take in different organisations. It is different from organisation to organisation and working on different levels. That is one area that has been intimated to us as a step the unions might regard as appropriate industrial action. It is of serious concern to us.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

Having made some comments that I hope will be helpful to the organisation and its staff, can I make another clear one? Would any staff tempted to engage in such activities appreciate that the authority is paid to do a job? Surely it is reasonable that anybody working for the authority would ensure that job is done in so far as he or she can and would certainly not inhibit it from being done.

More important, the people who will be hurt by the action are not those in Government, the Department or those in officialdom but the few unfortunate individuals who may be waiting to obtain a loan. Having reached the end of the track and having been able to go through the process, they may now not be able to obtain the loans from financial institutions because they cannot produce the titles. Could this message be conveyed to the organisation? It is entirely unacceptable.

Ms Catherine Treacy

There will be huge awareness of that. It certainly would have been said. I assure the Deputy and members, the work is continuing to be accepted and processed. The legal aspects are being dealt with, as are mapping, recording and a survey for tracking. It is at the point of signing off that an issue arises at the moment but there is no question of everything coming to a halt. Everything is being processed to a certain point. We have to deal with the issue. It is part of a public service-wide initiative. We are aware of various ongoing discussions. We have spoken to the various unions and will keep the Department of Finance informed, as we would in all these matters.

The Deputy is quite right and I appreciate his concerns, which we share. All the work is being processed and we are managing the whole situation to bring work to a technical point before signing off. I hope there will be a resolution and that, when there is, the cases can be completed.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I thank Ms Treacy for coming here today. With regard to the point the Chairman and Deputy O'Keeffe referred to quite a lot, I disagree fundamentally that the recruitment embargo should not apply to public sector organisations that generate income from fees. If that logic were followed through, we should say there should be no staff embargo in the Property Registration Authority, the Passport Office, the regulators and energy bodies. Just because they generate income from fees does not mean they should be exempt.

Chairman

No, the issue I was raising was that Ms Treacy said the authority had 70 solicitors.

Ms Catherine Treacy

No, we had 17.

Chairman

Has that now been reduced to 12?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I would be very careful. The logic of the point of the Chairman and Deputy O'Keeffe, if followed through, is that those State organisations that generate fee income should be exempt from the embargo and that those organisations that do not generate fee income, such as the HSE, particularly in respect of its nurses, should bear the full brunt of the embargo. I totally oppose the Deputies' proposition. An embargo cannot be imposed solely on bodies that are not generating income, which bodies are providing a public service, and there should be equality across the board. I hope members understand my point. I do not agree with the Deputies' point of view at all.

The authority might not like me making this point but it must be put in the same category as the HSE.

Chairman

The Deputy is entitled to his opinion and I am entitled to mine.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I am expressing a counter-opinion lest it be said that the views of the two members comprise the view of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Some of us have not met the witnesses from the Property Registration Authority before. We understand they are from what was once the Land Registry. Who does the mapping and surveying? Are satellite photographs used? How is the landmass of Ireland translated into the legal title documents of the authority?

Ms Catherine Treacy

The OSI is the State authority for what we call the base map. Its map has topographical detail captured from satellite and planes. We must superimpose on that all the legal boundaries for every parcel of land in Ireland. We deal with all the legal boundaries for more than 2.5 million titles.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Right.

Ms Catherine Treacy

We superimpose our information on the base map and then provide a link vis-à-vis our boundaries that links one back to the legal title. This gives information on ownership, the description of the property, acreage and burdens such as mortgages, charges, rights of way and easements. We have the composite body of information.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Some of the authority's main customers are public bodies and solicitors. Ms Treacy referred to the Luas line. Is it the Property Registration Authority or OSI that provides information on property boundary lines to public bodies such as the National Roads Authority, which is heavily involved with compulsory purchase orders, for motorway projects, for example?

Ms Catherine Treacy

We do. I am delighted to be able to say that because of the programmes we have implemented over the years, including our digital mapping programme, major savings are possible. Initially the NRA would have had to come in and identify, piece by piece on a map, all the lands in question and then identify on the paper folio possibly 500 or 1,000 different owners. We can now facilitate the NRA such that it can give us, in some cases, a number of different alternatives. We can show the relevant information and identify all the owners along all the route it has to deal with. For the NRA, our technology has resulted in a major saving with regard to all its infrastructure projects.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Generally, the system works very well; that is why I raised the matter. However, there are cases in which the satellite map might show a natural boundary – a ditch, for example – that is not the original one corresponding to the title deed. This has led to confusion over boundaries, including boundaries associated with several projects in my county. The system is not fully perfected. Have many complaints been received from the NRA?

Ms Catherine Treacy

No.

Deputy Seán Fleming

In other words, it is sitting on the complaints and they have not yet been sent to the Property Registration Authority.

Ms Catherine Treacy

We identify for the NRA all the legal titles. Obviously, issues arise for the NRA. We identify that the dispute is between owners and that has to be resolved. We identify for the NRA all the people it must deal with or negotiate with along a route.

Deputy Seán Fleming

There were 14,000 registered professional users in 2008. Did the number decrease in 2009 or is it still the same?

Ms Catherine Treacy

No, it is still the same. Interestingly, we find the figures pertaining to the use of our services and the number of hits on our website with a view to looking for information have remained the same. The number of applications for copy maps and filed plans seems to be the same. It is the number of cases coming in that has dropped.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Will Ms Treacy explain the position on quality assurance and control and the involvement of a company in India? Am I correct that it is India?

Ms Catherine Treacy

India, yes.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Could no body in the European Union provide the facility?

Ms Catherine Treacy

It was a UK-based company that got the contract. There were two different parts to the project, one of which pertained to seed points. The company had a consortium including a company in Cork. Different sub-contractors were brought on board. The main part of the digitisation was done in India.

With regard to the quality assurance aspect, we had to deal with very comprehensive specifications.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Is it in line with EU procurement rules that part of a contract can be sub-contracted to a company outside the European Union?

Ms Catherine Treacy

That was all in line with EU procurement policy.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I believe that sub-contracting to companies outside the European Union was often an issue.

Ms Catherine Treacy

No, that is all within the policy. There was a very high level of quality assurance because the work was done at three levels. It was done in Noida itself, where there was a 100% check. Another quality-assurance process was carried out in Exeter, England, and the final one was carried out in the Property Registration Authority. There was a three-part process. So the quality assurance was at the extreme end of ensuring accuracy.

Deputy Seán Fleming

One sentence in Ms Treacy's opening statement sounded very good — that 93% of the total land-mass and 88% of legal titles in Ireland are now registered. Is that 88% in all of Ireland or in the counties in which digitisation has been completed?

Ms Catherine Treacy

That is the entire country.

Deputy Seán Fleming

So it is 88%.

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes, 88% of our target.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Are they the current owners?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes, that is all up to date. The rest of that portion is still dealt with in our registry of deeds system.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Unregistered land?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Unregistered land, but from January this year we have extended our compulsory registration programme to 24 counties. Any sale of property in those counties must come into the registry.

Deputy Seán Fleming

The solicitor must come in to the Property Registration Authority.

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Within what time scale?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Once they complete a transaction it has to come in within six months.

Deputy Seán Fleming

So there is still a six-month gap for a solicitor not to send it on and for a change in title not to be registered.

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes. They have to get it in to us within six months.

Deputy Seán Fleming

As I understand it, when the banks give out a mortgage, within 24 hours they can electronically register the charge on a person's house or property.

Ms Catherine Treacy

They can register a discharge.

Deputy Seán Fleming

No, I mean registering the charge.

Ms Catherine Treacy

No, they cannot register the charge electronically.

Deputy Seán Fleming

What happens?

Ms Catherine Treacy

It does not pay for form.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Still?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Still.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Why?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Because that depends on an electronic signature and all the arrangements around that have not been finalised.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Talk me through it. Is that a little hiccup? Is Ms Treacy saying that in the middle of the electronic system, this process cannot be done electronically?

Ms Catherine Treacy

No.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Can Ms Treacy explain why?

Ms Catherine Treacy

It is a legal issue; it has nothing to do with the technology. Without sounding too brash, we can do anything with technology. Under the Commerce Act, an aspect of that has to be initiated which enables taking electronic signatures on deeds.

Deputy Seán Fleming

When was that legislation passed by the Oireachtas?

Ms Catherine Treacy

I think the legislation was passed in 2006.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Has that section commenced yet?

Ms Catherine Treacy

That section has not yet commenced. I am not sure of the exact year, but Mr. Greg McDermott might know. He says it was 2002, but the section allowing electronic signatures on deeds has not yet commenced.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Obviously it relates directly to Ms Treacy's office. Does she know why there is a delay in commencing with it?

Ms Catherine Treacy

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has to bring it in.

Deputy Seán Fleming

So Ms Treacy does not know. Has she not inquired?

Ms Catherine Treacy

No.

Deputy Seán Fleming

As regards releasing a charge, what happens then?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Releasing a charge is a new system we introduced last April. The financial institutions can now lodge that electronically to us. It is one of the first steps in e-conveyancing that we have initiated. We have about 50% of cases coming in electronically as we speak.

Deputy Seán Fleming

From the customers' point of view, they may have to pay to get a charge released. Is it possible that when the charge has been registered on day one, if it is for a specific mortgage period, an automatic end-date could be put on the charge? Then, in due course, the system would automatically release the charge.

Ms Catherine Treacy

We have removed the fee for those electronic discharges. There is no fee for that.

Deputy Seán Fleming

Was that recently?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes.

Chairman

The Deputy should conclude.

Deputy Seán Fleming

I have one remaining question. I want to ask about one last issue because we are talking about titles. I am amazed and delighted to hear that 88% of legal titles are properly registered with the Property Registration Authority. Has Ms Treacy had a lot of dealings concerning the NAMA situation and titles of various properties? One hears stories about many of these transactions. Can Ms Treacy tell me about her dealings with NAMA on this issue?

Ms Catherine Treacy

I am delighted to say that we will be able to add further to the Government's ability to deal with this situation. We have offered to set up a project which will allow us to manage the assets and to have a particular register for all those assets. The Department of Finance supplied us with €120,000 to help us enhance our system to take care of that. We are in discussions at the moment with representatives of NAMA. Our ICT unit is building that system to facilitate them to have an asset management register. We are co-operating with them on that project at the moment.

Deputy Seán Fleming

That is good news.

Ms Catherine Treacy

Yes.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

The conclusions in chapter 18 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report state that it will be necessary for the Property Registration Authority to keep the quality of mapping under review to ensure that electronic plans reflect registered holdings. Can Ms Treacy comment on that? How will she ensure that she has accurately reported?

Ms Catherine Treacy

The process that we have set up consisted of three parts. First of all there is the 100% process in the area where digitisation of boundaries takes place. Not alone is that 100%, but a manual check is also done on part of that. In Exeter, in England, the main contractor does a further quality assurance check that all those boundaries are in accord. When it comes back to our own Property Registration Authority, we have a quality assurance team which deals with any issues that arise. We are conscious of the need for quality assurance. As the Comptroller and Auditor General rightly reported, it is an ongoing quality assurance process that we will be keeping an eye on.

Deputy Deirdre Clune

Is Ms Treacy happy that it is under the authority's control?

Ms Catherine Treacy

I am happy that we are in control. I am happier that it is probably more accurate than the manual systems, which depended very much on visual techniques when there were boundary changes moving from a map, which might have been on one scale, and then trying to upscale it to another map and then downscale it again. This is much less likely to lead to wrong boundaries.

Chairman

To quantify that, how many complaints did Ms Treacy's office receive in recent times concerning variations between the digital and manual systems? I have experience of complaints that have been made myself.

Ms Catherine Treacy

I am not aware of the number of cases. I do know that only three compensation cases were lodged. One has been totally refused and the other two are not going ahead. I do not think they will proceed. It has not come up as an issue because of that stringent process. Those are all the processes we are going through to make sure it is not.

Chairman

Is it not an issue therefore?

Ms Catherine Treacy

No, it is not an issue.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I am concerned about the point Deputy O'Keeffe raised about the potential industrial action regarding no completion notices. Is that now in place in the PRAI? Has Ms Treacy been told that formally by the unions?

Ms Catherine Treacy

That happened this week.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Is that in the context of a work to rule?

Ms Catherine Treacy

It is in the context of the overall industrial action. We are awaiting developments. We have had discussions with the PSEU, which is the union involved.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

As of early last week, no completion notices were being issued through the PRAI.

Ms Catherine Treacy

It commenced this week.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

That, in itself, would be the final part of the process. It is intrinsically a part of an individual's job in the PRAI to do that. The release of the completion notices is the crucial part. Bringing it up to that stage is no good to the customer unless that is done.

Ms Catherine Treacy

It must be completed, yes.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

It is an integral part of their job, but that is not being carried out.

Ms Catherine Treacy

It is an integral part of the process and the discussion is about the job.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Is it part of their job to do that?

Ms Catherine Treacy

That is where the discussion lies. In fairness, in all kinds of industrial relations there are ongoing discussions with the PSEU and the Department of Finance. We are working closely with the Department of Finance on this one.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

I do not want to say too much more because it is a sensitive situation, but the only people who will be affected are the public. I would make a strong point, however, that that is part of the job and the end of the process. To be honest, they might as well not do anything else because that is what affects people. I will say no more on it.

As regards the embargo, did the PRAI make a submission to the Department of Finance on replacing the extra five solicitor posts, when numbers were reduced from 17 to 12?

Ms Catherine Treacy

As the Department of Finance has pointed out, we are cognisant that there is a moratorium and we do not expect to be totally exempted from that. We would always be in discussions with Department of Finance officials, updating them about our needs and seeing how they could accommodate them within the constraints that have been imposed.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

That is understood, but did the authority make a formal case to the Department of Finance to have those posts replaced?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Those discussions are ongoing as we speak and a case has been made. They are specialist posts.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Understood.

Ms Catherine Treacy

There are particular problems even within the organisation with that, but we are working closely with the Department of Finance in trying to come up with an acceptable resolution.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

As Mr. Denny said earlier, I am aware that posts have been granted on the basis of special cases, but they are on a case-by-case basis and that has to be assigned. I know everyone will think their case is special, and that is something Ms Treacy has to deal with.

I was impressed with Ms Treacy's presentation and to discover how far the process has moved in terms of improving the ICT and so on but regarding the information the authority captures, effectively it has 88% of properties registered. The sale of a property, be it new or second hand, is registered with the authority but is the sale price captured?

Ms Catherine Treacy

The discussion about disclosure of the price paid has been ongoing. It does not fall within our remit to provide the price paid. Several of the documents lodged would disclose the consideration paid. With some documentation that comes in it is merely the price of the site that is disclosed but in others we would have more detail. The Government has asked the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to examine the possibility of it being the repository for price paid for both commercial and residential properties. We have already spoken to the Department and offered to work closely with it if that becomes an issue. There are data protection issues and so on around it but I understand the Government is moving to make sure that in regard to any constraints in that area, in certain circumstances, particularly for aggregate data, that might be possible to disclose.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

That is the context in which I ask the question because there is uncertainty regarding the variances in selling prices in that no one can tell where the market is currently. It is all anecdotal evidence. In Britain I am aware they captured this data through the Land Registry.

Ms Catherine Treacy

That is right.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

It is not a question of disclosing the price of the sale of my house or anyone else's. It is aggregate data but it can be area specific. It appears to me from listening to Ms Treacy's presentation this morning and reading her opening statement that the authority's systems would probably be robust enough to capture that or to at least be able to report from that information.

Ms Catherine Treacy

Adjustments could be made to extrapolate a lot of information. On a note of caution, England has been producing this and we would monitor that but there are issues one must always be careful about because it may be aggregate data from a particular area but if there is only one house sold in a particular area the data for that is clearly applicable to the individual. There are a number of issues we would have to be aware of but we would have a lot of information that would be very useful in any exercise if it is decided that that is going to be produced.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Would it be correct to say that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is currently assessing how this could be done?

Ms Catherine Treacy

It has been mandated to look into this. We have spoken to the Department, and I would imagine the Central Statistics Office will probably be involved as well. We would be prepared to play an active role in that.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Any transparency that can be given to customers in the marketplace would be welcome. If we have the data there should be a way of sharing that. In any given report from one week to another there are——

Ms Catherine Treacy

Differences.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

——major differences between them and they are not area specific. They might lump County Dublin in as one area but there are many variances within that. Is Ms Treacy aware of any time frame on that?

Ms Catherine Treacy

No. I am not aware of that. We have volunteered and said we will co-operate in whatever way we can but they are the ones who have been asked by the Government to do it.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

That is probably a question committee members can ask of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Chairman

Arising from what Deputy O'Brien said, is the authority able to gather evidence about the holding of land and the ownership of land by, say, a number of individuals on the outskirts of towns and cities? Would that information be available to the authority and, if so, does it pass it on to the relevant agencies or Departments?

Ms Catherine Treacy

I am not sure I understand the question.

Chairman

If there was a hoarding of land by one individual in particular areas——

Ms Catherine Treacy

One can go in by names index and identify the lands that they own.

Chairman

Would it be able to collect evidence regarding the ownership of land by a small group of individuals? There have been allegations that land prices were artificially inflated by the——

Ms Catherine Treacy

It is just the ordinary names index search but there are various companies and one would have to be able to identify companies. We find a lot of land properties or large banks might be owned by companies and one would have to identify those but if one wanted to do a names index search against——

Chairman

Has the authority's facility ever been used by the planners in regard to that type of land?

Ms Catherine Treacy

Unless they made a specific application and we had to go outside the norm to accommodate it. That would not be seen as an extraordinary type of identification but just a number of properties. It would not be seen as a major project.

Chairman

I thank Ms Treacy for the evidence she has given. The proposal is that we agree to note Vote 23 — Property Registration Authority and chapter 18 — Digital Mapping. Agreed. We will move on now to Vote 10 — the Office of Public Works. I thank the representatives for attending.

The witnesses withdrew.

The committee went into private session at 12.15 p.m. and resumed in public session at 12.20 p.m.