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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 29 May 2014

NAMA - Annual Report and Financial Statements 2013

Mr. Brendan McDonagh (Chief Executive, National Asset Management Agency) and Mr. Frank Daly(Chairman, National Asset Management Agency) called and examined.

I welcome the witnesses from NAMA. Before we begin, I remind members and witnesses to please turn off their mobile telephones as they interfere with the sound quality of the transmission of the meeting. I advise the witnesses they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the provisions within Standing Order 163 that the committee shall also refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

I welcome Mr. Brendan McDonagh, chief executive officer of NAMA, and invite him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I thank the Chairman. To my right are Mr. Seán Ó Faoláin, head of strategy and communications, and Mr. Frank Daly, chairman, while to my left is Mr. Ronnie Hanna, head of asset recovery. On my far left is Mr. Declan Reid of the Department of Finance.

I welcome the witnesses from NAMA and Mr. Reid from the Department of Finance. I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The NAMA financial statements for 2013 received a clear audit report, which issued on 9 May 2014. Without qualifying my audit opinion, I have drawn attention to two notes in the financial statements. Note 2.1 relates to the "going concern" basis of preparation of the financial statements. It describes the position in regard to NAMA's main funding source, which is in the form of short-term borrowing with a Government guarantee - that is, the senior debt. Note 3.1 outlines the basis for an incremental impairment charge in 2013 in respect of NAMA’s asset portfolio, amounting to €914 million. This brings the cumulative impairment to €4.1 billion, or 17% of the carrying value of the loans at end-2013.

The Act that provided for the establishment of the National Asset Management Agency sets out the key purposes that it was designed to address over its lifetime. These were to acquire impaired assets from certain credit institutions so as to remove uncertainty from the institutions and stabilise the financial system, to deal expeditiously with the assets, to protect or otherwise enhance their value and, insofar as possible and consistent with those purposes, to obtain the best achievable financial return for the State. Against that statutory framework, the board of NAMA is required to set strategic objectives and targets to guide its activities. Under section 226 of the NAMA Act, I am required to carry out periodic reviews of the extent to which NAMA has made progress in achieving its overall objectives. The report on the findings of the first such review is before the committee today. I propose to outline the report’s findings in just a few key areas.

In a statutory order made under the provisions of the NAMA Act, the Minister for Finance defined the classes of eligible assets that NAMA could acquire. NAMA had discretion to decide whether or not to acquire an eligible asset from the five financial institutions that participated in the scheme.

Ultimately, it acquired 90% of the identified eligible loan assets. It had completed the bulk of the transfers by the end of 2010, based on interim payments in some cases. All the loan valuations were finalised by March 2012 following completion of the legal due diligence, and resulted in only marginal adjustment of the prices paid. This was a significant achievement by NAMA given the scale and uncertain nature of the loan books and the inadequate documentation and processes that it found in the banks.

In the end, NAMA paid €31.8 billion for loans and financial derivatives with a face value of €74.4 billion. The transfer crystallised losses in the banks amounting to €42.6 billion or 57% of the amounts owed by borrowers, and so reduced the uncertainty on their balance sheets in respect of those assets. Some residual uncertainty remains about the value to the banks of €1.6 billion worth of subordinated bonds issued as part payment for the assets, and which do not have a Government guarantee.

The transfer prices of the loans are subject to assessment by the European Commission because the prices paid include an element of State aid. By April 2014, the Commission had approved the transfers of only one third of the loans. The Department of Finance submitted an application to the Commission in February 2014, seeking approval of the remaining loan transfers.

A key objective set by the NAMA board is that, by the time the agency is wound up, it will have generated enough cash to redeem all of the €30.2 billion of senior debt issued and to cover all NAMA's costs. It has also set intermediate targets for redemption of the debt. By the end of 2013, NAMA had met its first intermediate debt redemption target of €7.5 billion, and was holding a further €4 billion in cash and liquid assets.

The targets set by the board for debt redemption and cash generation are conservative when compared to the detailed debtor cash flow projections prepared by NAMA each year, and which are NAMA's best estimate of the amount and timing of the cash it will receive from individual debtors. This is illustrated in Figure 3.8, which indicates that NAMA generated cash in excess of its targets in both 2012 and 2013, but that this was significantly less than the cash flow amounts projected for those years.

By the end of 2013, NAMA had realised around €10.5 billion in loan and property disposals. Three quarters of the disposals were in Great Britain with the bulk of these in London. Around 15% of the disposals related to assets in Ireland.

The proceeds from disposals up to the end of 2012 were around €1 billion greater than the value of the properties when NAMA acquired the associated loans. The surpluses were derived only from disposals in London. Given than NAMA did not record client information centrally, it is not known to what extent NAMA had invested directly in the assets after acquisition, or if developers had retained funds for use. As a result, the rate of return - or loss - on the disposals in each region is not known. Within the disposals, we were able to establish that sales of loans up to the end of 2012 had yielded €1.4 billion, representing 9% more than the carrying value of the loans, as indicated in Figure 5.3.

Much of the property collateral related to NAMA loan assets has the potential to yield rent and NAMA has taken steps to ensure that it benefits from such income. By the end of 2013, it had realised around €3.6 billion in non-disposal income, mainly from rents. NAMA received around €800 million in rental and other non-disposal receipts in 2013, but the value of such income has fallen year-on-year as high rent yielding assets were disposed of.

NAMA also provides funding to debtors to enhance or develop suitable properties. It had directly advanced around €1 billion to debtors by the end of 2012 and had approved debtors to retain a further €0.6 billion. NAMA has set a minimum expected return of 15% on cost before it will invest in a project. Members may wish to note that this is an overall cash return over the project life, and not a required minimum annual rate of return.

The Act requires NAMA to obtain the best achievable financial return for the State in the context of acquiring, protecting, enhancing and disposing of assets. In my view, NAMA's stated objectives to redeem at least its senior debt and to cover its costs are relevant to its performance, but such cash management targets are not an adequate measure of financial return. The rate of return is a core standard performance measure for investments, but the board has not set an expected or target rate of return.

When the European Commission assessed the NAMA scheme on its establishment, it considered that normal market operators acquiring similar assets at that time would have required an effective rate of return of around 5% a year. On that basis, NAMA applied a discount rate of 5% to its projected debtor cash flows to arrive at the value of the loans it took on, as at November 2009. Since then, several factors have changed NAMA's expectations: for example, the significant decline in Irish property values after November 2009; additional lending to NAMA borrowers; the property price boom in London; and the capture of certain previously unidentified assets from debtors. The net result of those factors has required NAMA to recognise substantial impairment charges. Based on NAMA's end-2012 cash flow projections, we estimated that the net impact of those factors has been to reduce NAMA's prospective annual return on its assets to around 3.8%. After taking account of debt servicing and operating costs, the projected net annual return over NAMA's lifetime would be just under 0.2%.

In view or the statutory requirement for NAMA to obtain the best achievable financial return, I have recommended that the board should set an overall expected or target rate of return for its portfolio of assets, and should measure its performance against this target. Target rates of return should also be set to inform the choice between disposal and retention of property, and investment decision-making. These target rates of return, which could be positive or negative, should be revised annually to take account of changing conditions and revised expectations. The committee may wish to note that the board and I have agreed to differ on these recommendations. The board's reasoning in this regard is set out in the report.

At the end of 2012, NAMA projected that it would realise €22.9 billion in disposal receipts in the period 2013 to 2016. Disposal receipts in 2013 amounted to €3.7 billion, leaving a further €19.2 billion to be achieved in the three years from 2014 to 2016. We noted that, even if those disposal forecasts are not achieved by a wide margin, NAMA will still be able to meet the intermediate debt redemption target it has set for 2016.

By the end of 2013, NAMA had disposed of over 60% of its London property. Future sales will need to come from other markets, principally Ireland, where over 70% of the acquired portfolio is scheduled for disposal between 2014 and 2016. Projected disposal values depend on significant recovery in Irish property values. This level of disposal receipts may be difficult to achieve in that timeframe. NAMA has acknowledged that challenges remain in disposing of its Irish portfolio but has pointed to a heightened level of activity in the Irish property market in late 2013 and into 2014, increased interest from investors and the favourable location of much of its Irish property as positive factors that may facilitate disposal at the projected, or even higher, prices.

NAMA has also set a number of objectives designed to contribute to a sustainable level of activity in the Irish property market, and to the social and economic development of the State. However, it has stated that actions in these areas must be consistent with the objective of recovering all of the State's costs, and so are subordinate to the key commercial objectives.

Included in this group of activities is NAMA's offer of residential accommodation units for social housing purposes. Up to the end of 2013, local authorities and housing associations had confirmed demand for over 2,000 units for social housing. Our review of disposals for social housing purposes found that the units were transferred at prices equal to the current market values. It should be borne in mind that such transfers take place with NAMA's approval, but in the context of debtors seeking to reduce their indebtedness to NAMA to the maximum extent possible.

Other matters are set out in the report which I am happy to explain should the members wish to discuss them.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. I now invite Mr. McDonagh to make his opening statement.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have been invited before the committee today to discuss two recent publications: the National Asset Management Agency Progress Report 2010–2012, published last week by the Comptroller and Auditor General, and our 2013 annual report and financial statements, published just two days ago. I will first comment briefly on our results for 2013 before discussing the Comptroller and Auditor General’s progress report. I understand that a copy of our annual report and financial statements and a presentation summarising our 2013 results have been circulated to members and, for that reason, I do not propose to comment on them in any great detail in this statement.

For 2013, we have reported an operating profit before impairment of €1.2 billion, a 45% increase on 2012. Taking into account an impairment charge of €914 million, profit after impairment, tax and dividends was €211 million, broadly in line with that of 2012. Our 2013 results incorporate the impact of a comprehensive review of impairment provisioning, including analysis of the smaller debtor connections which are being managed on our behalf by the banks.

Excluding cash-flows arising from the sale of IBRC assets, we generated cash of €4.5 billion in 2013. This included the proceeds of asset disposals by debtors and receivers, the proceeds of our own loan sales and non-disposal receipts, mainly rental income. From inception to last Friday, 23 May, NAMA had generated €18.6 billion in cash, including €14.1 billion from asset disposals. Some €3.5 billion of this has been generated in the first five months of 2014.

We have been very active in terms of sales in the early part of this year. We are close to completing the sale of some €5.7 billion in par debt value loans relating to our Northern Ireland portfolio, code-named Project Eagle. We recently closed the sale of a major debtor loan portfolio with nominal loan balances of €1.8 billion. This is in addition to a number of other portfolio sales which have been concluded over recent months and some other portfolios which are currently on the market.

Not only is there strong demand for Irish assets at the moment but purchasers are willing to pay what we consider to be fair value for them. During the period up to the end of 2012, the period covered by the Comptroller and Auditor General’s progress report, demand for Irish assets was very limited and potential purchasers were generally interested only in transacting at fire sale prices. Thankfully, market conditions are now much more positive and we are keen to take advantage of that to the greatest extent possible, subject to the proviso that we can continue to transact at prices that make commercial sense for us.

Section 226 of the NAMA Act 2009 requires that, as soon as may be after 31 December 2012 and every three years thereafter, the Comptroller and Auditor General must assess the extent to which NAMA has made progress towards achieving its overall objectives. As members will be aware, the Minister for Finance is separately required, under section 227 of the Act, to assess the extent to which NAMA has made progress towards achieving its overall objectives and the Minister has stated that he intends to be in a position to publish his findings by the end of June or in early July.

From NAMA’s perspective, we welcome the Comptroller and Auditor General’s section 226 report and we consider it to be broadly positive in its assessment of the progress that NAMA has made to date. Understandably, perhaps, given that the report’s focus is largely on the period from 2010 to 2012, it does not fully reflect the major progress that has been made in the 17 months since December 2012, particularly the improvement in the Irish economy and property market.

At one stage, the taxpayer was faced with a contingent liability of over €43 billion relating to NAMA and IBRC. This comprised €30 billion arising from the senior bonds that NAMA issued in 2010 and 2011 and an additional €12.9 billion in senior bonds that NAMA used to purchase the IBRC floating charge from the Central Bank as part of the liquidation of IBRC in February 2013. By the end of this year, we expect that the contingent liability associated with NAMA will have reduced from €43 billion to €15 billion. Current indications are that the cash proceeds of the IBRC sales process will be sufficient to enable NAMA to redeem all of the €12.9 billion in senior bonds that we issued to the Central Bank. In addition, the stronger performance of the Irish market over the past year has enabled us to accelerate the sale of Irish assets securing our loans. This, in turn, has meant that we have been in a position to exceed the bond redemption targets that we had initially set for 2014. In addition to the €2.75 billion redeemed in 2013 and the €3 billion redeemed in March 2014, we aim to redeem another €2.5 billion over the coming weeks and an additional €2 billion by the end of this year. If achieved, this would mean the redemption of 50% of the original senior bonds by the end of 2014 and would leave a residual €15 billion outstanding at that stage. Subject to market conditions, we aim to make substantial progress on further reducing this over the course of 2015 and 2016.

The Comptroller and Auditor General’s progress report contains a great amount of detail about our activities, particularly during the initial phase of the agency’s existence from 2010 to 2012. For much of this period, we were in the process of establishing the agency, including the recruitment of staff with the expertise and experience to carry out our statutory mandate.

Recruitment was, of necessity, an orderly process, not least because in NAMA’s case we were in a position to offer potential recruits only specified purpose contracts which expire when our work has been completed. With over 350 professional staff now on board, we are adequately staffed to undertake the intensive and detailed asset and loan management work required to carry out the statutory functions assigned to us, including managing our assets to extinguish the State’s contingent liability.

In parallel with recruitment, we also had to make the necessary arrangements to carry out a major transaction for which there was no precedent in terms of scale and complexity: the valuation and transfer of loan balances of €74 billion from five financial institutions. Sweden is often quoted as a parallel but its corresponding state asset management operation - which was called Securum - had assets of only €6 billion by comparison. The report has looked in considerable detail at the loan valuation and acquisition process and it has concluded that the property valuation, legal due diligence and loan valuation processes were adequate and complied with the regulations made by the Minister. The section 226 report describes this as a very significant achievement by NAMA in a relatively short time, given the scale of the task as well as the inadequate documentation and processes that we found in the banks.

Bearing in mind that the last time we appeared before this committee, in December 2013, we were faced with serious but unsubstantiated allegations of wrongdoing relating to the loan acquisition and valuation process, the Comptroller and Auditor General’s conclusions in respect of this major area of our work is particularly welcome and reassuring.

We are also pleased that the report, based on analysis of NAMA’s performance to date and of our operating cash flow estimates, has concluded that, unless there is a further significant economic downturn in the next few years, NAMA will generate sufficient cash to meet its minimum key objective of redeeming the senior debt. Our own analysis indicates that we will repay the senior and subordinated debt. Given that the value of Irish collateral fell by about 25% after we acquired it, we consider it to be a notable achievement that we are now talking of the possibility of at least breaking even over our lifetime. Meeting this objective is very important for us given that the senior debt that we issued was guaranteed by the Minister and is, therefore, a contingent liability on Irish taxpayers.

There has been some press comment over recent days to the effect that NAMA expects to make a surplus of €1 billion over its lifetime. Our current expectation, based on our most recent forecast analysis and assuming a phased and orderly disposal of assets, is that we will repay our senior and subordinated debt, and there is a possibility that we may be able to generate a surplus but we are not at this stage able to speculate as to the size of such a surplus. Attaining a surplus is dependent on a number of economic and timing factors which are beyond NAMA’s control but, based on current conditions, our outlook would be positive. Needless to say, the fact that NAMA may do better than anybody expected has ramifications well beyond itself as it concerns the wider economy.

The report expresses some doubts as to whether NAMA can achieve its Irish asset disposal targets. I wish to make a number of comments on this opinion. NAMA’s exposure to Irish assets is largely urban-centric, with 92% based in Dublin, the Dublin commuter belt, Cork, Limerick and Galway. As one will see from the presentation sent with our annual report, we have limited exposure to other regions in Ireland. It is very important to make a distinction between the aggregation of the disposal targets that we set for individual debtors and the overall targets that need to be achieved in order to enable us to generate sufficient cash to meet the board’s debt redemption targets.

In line with normal commercial practice, ambitious but realistic cash targets are set for debtors in the expectation that, for various reasons, those targets are sometimes unlikely to be met in the aggregate. Planned asset sales, for instance, may not proceed as originally scheduled in a particular year and will accordingly be rescheduled for a later period. Given the reality that not all debtor disposal targets will be met in any given year, NAMA must set aggregate targets for debtors which are well in excess of the cash target that is set by the board in order to meet debt redemption targets. Typically, the latter would be 60% to 70% of the former. Hypothetically, for instance, individual disposal targets totalling €5 billion would be set for debtors in the expectation that 70%, which is equivalent to €3.5 billion, will be achieved.

In each year of the existence of NAMA, so far, the board’s annual cash target has been exceeded, thereby enabling us to meet our debt redemption targets. It is not, therefore, in our view reasonable for a judgment on NAMA’s prospects of achieving its Irish disposal targets to be based on the aggregate disposal target set for debtors. This will inevitably be much higher than the minimum that will need to be achieved.

Second, we consider that the report does not give sufficient weight to the much improved conditions which have prevailed in the Irish market since the second quarter of 2013. Up to early 2013, Irish assets could only be sold on an asset by asset basis and demand was, at best, sporadic. In the past year investors have been willing to increase substantially their exposure to the Irish market. This has enabled NAMA and others to sell asset and loan portfolios in sizeable volumes.

On pages 33 and 34 of the progress report we outline some of the reasons for our positive outlook. We estimate that we will need to sell about €6 billion in Irish assets from 2014 to 2016 through a combination of packaged property sales, individual property sales and loan sales. Bearing in mind the success of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation sales process and our own success in selling assets and loans secured on Irish property in the past year, we consider an annual Irish sales target of €2 billion to be achievable, assuming continuation of recent benign conditions in the Irish market. Of course, if these benign conditions do not endure, we will be commercially sensible and adapt our strategy and targets to the changed market conditions.

Given that selling assets, mainly through our debtors and receivers, is an important element of our business, it is crucial for us that we achieve the best price available in the market in any asset sale and, for that reason, we place a major emphasis on the open marketing of assets. Having examined a sample of 144 property disposals, the report concludes that “overall, almost all had been sold through an open competitive process or with testing of disposal prices against market valuation”. The report goes on to state this provides reasonable assurance that the prices obtained by NAMA were the best on offer in the market at the time a property was sold. In four of the 144 cases sampled the report states there was no evidence the properties had been openly marketed. The gross disposal value in these four cases was about €500,000. We disagree with the report’s conclusion that there was no open marketing. We have looked in detail at the four cases and are satisfied, based on evidence available to us and that we have since provided for the Comptroller and Auditor General's team, that the assets were openly marketed.

The report includes several recommendations on how we conduct our business. Some of the recommendations are ones we have no difficulty in accepting. We consider them to be sensible in terms of the evolution of our business. Several others were examined by the NAMA board but not accepted. I will refer to two in particular. Recommendation No. 3.1 states the board should set an overall expected or target rate of return and measure overall performance against this target. Recommendation No. 5.1 states the board should set targets for the overall return on disposals and property held by debtors and insolvency practitioners and that performance should be measured against these targets. The board has reviewed these recommendations and taken the view that such target rates of return would not be an appropriate metric for its business on the basis that they would act as an unnecessary constraint on its flexibility. In taking this view we are cognisant of the need to be open to commercially sensible disposal opportunities whenever they arise. We are also mindful of the stated view of the Minister for Finance, reiterated this week at the launch of our 2013 annual report, that NAMA’s main focus should be on reducing the State’s contingent liabilities as quickly as is feasible.

Moody’s recently upgraded Ireland’s credit rating by two notches and, when doing so, highlighted the progress made by NAMA in the disposal of the IBRC portfolio in bringing about a “very sharp reduction” in Government contingent liabilities. NAMA cannot afford to ignore the wider public and national interest. For that reason, we are acutely conscious of the contribution our deleveraging activity makes to the overall Irish economic and financial recovery. NAMA is not a long-term investment fund which would be in a position to set target rates of return for its assets and then wait indefinitely for these targets to be achieved. The agency was created in the midst of a crisis and its primary purpose, under section 10 of the NAMA Act, was to acquire property loans from banks so as to reduce their excessive exposure to that sector, as well as obtaining the best achievable financial return for the State on these loans.

Importantly, under section 10, we were required to conduct our work expeditiously. The idea was that NAMA would make a major contribution to the normalisation of conditions in the financial system but that it would not be a permanent feature of the landscape thereafter. Therefore, we never saw ourselves as having the same frame of reference as would an investment fund. Unlike such a fund, we had little or no discretion as to which assets we acquired and no control over the prices we paid for them. An investment fund, on the other hand, has complete discretion in its asset selection and will only invest in assets which it expects to yield a positive return, be it over a short, medium or long-term horizon. We had no expectation that each and every asset we acquired would yield a positive return. In the first three years after our loan acquisition, Irish property prices declined. Despite this, our initial minimal objective of taking the positive with the negative was to break even over our lifespan. We remain confident that we will break even, but, based on our current outlook, there is a strong possibility that we will achieve it over a shorter timespan than was initially envisaged. Our objective is to optimise the realised value of our acquired assets, but we do not have an open-ended horizon in which to do so. For that reason, we do not consider it would be appropriate to use performance metrics which would be relevant in the case of a discretionary long-term portfolio but not for the task we have been asked to carry out. Unlike other public entities, the NAMA Act specifically provides that the Minister may dissolve NAMA as soon as he considers it has fulfilled its purposes. Therefore, given that NAMA has no control over how long it stays in business, it is prudent for us to assume that we are operating to a short to medium-term timeframe and to adopt the appropriate deleveraging strategy to extinguish the contingent liability, as well as the appropriate performance metrics to match that timeframe.

We are happy to discuss these or any other issue the committee may wish to raise with us arising from the Comptroller and Auditor General’s progress report and our 2013 annual report.

I thank Mr. McDonagh. May we publish his opening statement?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

I compliment the Comptroller and Auditor General on his good report which raises several questions. NAMA is a commercial organisation. When it was established, the European Commission put in place a stipulation that it use a discount rate of 5% for future cash flows. In essence, it accepted a benchmark would be a 5% annual rate of return. If NAMA gives money to developers to do work, it looks for a 15% rate of return. Why does it not apply the same standards to itself?

The Comptroller and Auditor General spoke about the low rate of return on property disposals and rental yields. The fact that the overall sum of moneys retained by debtors to develop or enhance properties is not known is not good. It is €600 million of taxpayer's money, but there is no record. A corner shop would have better records.

Last year NAMA provided for an impairment charge of €517 million, but this year that figure has nearly doubled to €914 million. It made an operating profit last year, after impairment, of €308 million. This year the figure will be €283 million, which is more or less the same. Were NAMA’s profits overstated last year? Why is there such a large impairment charge this year?

Being an accountant like my good self, Mr. McDonagh will appreciate that when one hands out moneys on behalf of the taxpayer, one looks for a rate of return. NAMA was given €32 billion on behalf of the taxpayer. In reality, it was given €74 billion as that is the gross figure for the loans it took over.

The amount the NAMA paid with a 57% discount was €32 billion so the discount was €43 billion. A total of €64 billion worth of taxpayers' money went into the banks. I do not like the fact that the return is based on the €32 billion - the amount NAMA paid. I was there when the legislation went through the Dáil. NAMA was set up to recover the maximum amount for the taxpayer, not just the amount that was paid because, ultimately, the lower the value NAMA got the assets at, the easier it was for it to make a return. Equally, a discount of €43 billion was applied. The rate of return should not just be on what NAMA paid for the loans. In his statement, Mr. McDonagh said that NAMA must look at section 10 of the legislation to do it expeditiously. He is not giving the full facts there. Section 10 states that "So far as possible, NAMA shall, expeditiously and consistently with the achievement of the purposes specified in subsection (1), obtain the best achievable financial return for the State". Section 10 then speaks about the cost to the Exchequer of acquiring bank assets and dealing with acquired bank assets, NAMA's cost of capital and other costs and any other factor which NAMA considers relevant to the achievement of its purposes.

I accept that it is a balancing act but the worry here is that NAMA is chasing the cash dragon rather than looking after the profit side as well. The taxpayer is our main interest in this committee and I accept that it is a balancing act. Could Mr. McDonagh address the rate of return and the fact that €600 million of taxpayers' money has been given to developers without any records? Does NAMA know how this money is being spent? Could Mr. McDonagh address the fact that NAMA has no rate of return for either property or the rental yields and why it fought the Comptroller and Auditor General so hard in respect of providing a rate of return?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

First, I do not think we fought the Comptroller and Auditor General. We just have a difference of opinion. In terms of the rate of return, the issue is that section 10 requires us to get the best achievable return by reference to what we paid for the assets, any additional moneys we give out and any costs incurred.

With all due respect, that was not the original intention of the NAMA legislation. The original intention was to stabilise the market and get the maximum return. NAMA is not just about getting back the €32 billion it spent. If that is the case, it becomes nothing more than an asset recovery vehicle. When NAMA was established in the legislation, the Minister at the time said that it was a work-out vehicle and not a liquidation vehicle and could take the longer view on borrowers and assets if it made commercial sense to do so. There is a balancing act here. I am nervous that NAMA is just becoming about recovering the €32 billion with no other remit. It was supposed to have a social remit. I did not mean to cut across Mr. McDonagh but I just want to put it in context.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The €32 billion is just a first base in terms what to recover. We are very cognisant as people who live in the country that there is a huge hole created by the banks. We acquired the loans for whatever price we had to pay for them under European Commission rules. If we can get back more than €32 billion, we will do our very best to do so. The reality is that over-lending occurred before we acquired the loans.

In terms of the rate of return, I should highlight something in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Under the EU approved mechanism, there is a table on page 22 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that says that NAMA, in contrast to anybody else who is buying in the market, overpaid for these assets from day one by 22%. Therefore, even though we paid €32 billion for them, a private equity house would only have paid about €26 billion for them. It is at the bottom of page 22 on the right hand side. Therefore, one is starting off with that.

The second thing one is starting off with is the fact that the Irish property market, as we all know, had a significant decline of around 25% post-acquisition as well. Therefore, we were starting off in a situation with a very deep economic crisis having overpaid for the assets so we were down about 35% all in very early on in the process.

NAMA was set up with long-term economic value. It was not based around the traditional model of acquiring at market value at a moment in time. It was based around long-term economic value. Basing it purely on a market proposition does not wash.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

What I have explained is that we are not the same as an investment fund, which would have paid 22% less for the assets on day one. We have overpaid for the assets by 22% on day one. From the very beginning, our objective has been to complete our work by 2020 and everybody was hoping that NAMA would have its work completed by 2020, which was a reasonable long-term horizon set by the board of NAMA in its first business plan. What we are saying to the committee today is that 18 months ago, people were always saying that there was a big black hole in NAMA and that it would never even recover the €32 billion. We are saying today that we hope to at least recover the €32 billion and a bit more because there has been a big improvement in the market.

The Vice Chairman spoke about NAMA looking for a 15% return. This relates in particular to a small part of the loan book where we are given development capital in terms of the asset management division. The majority of the loan book basically involves trying to recover money on loans where, effectively, the margin on those loans is set by the board's pricing rate, which is 2.5% over six months LIBOR. That is the return we are trying to get.

The Vice Chairman said that the European Commission expects a return of 5% but that is what is happening in our financial statements. Under International Financial Reporting Standards, IFRS, we are accruing income in our financial statements at 5% per annum. Therefore, one ends up with a bottom line of €200 million profit after accruing at 5% per annum taking account of all one's costs and if there is an impairment that hits one's bottom line.

In respect of yields on individual properties, we do not own the underlying properties. If one looks at an office portfolio, the yields on the office sector 18 months ago were probably generating 8% per annum. They are now about 6% per annum. Therefore, yields shift over time. Yields are driven by two things. They are obviously driven by demand. One can produce a high yield but one might not be able to have a very good tenant. One wants to have a strong covenant.

Mr. McDonagh is giving me an overview in terms of the market. I am asking very straightforward questions. NAMA is an organisation with an asset value of €36 billion overall, yet it is not willing to have any benchmark in terms of return on investment in both property or interest. I do not know any other State organisation where this would apply. Why would NAMA not have a rate of return and then deal with the specific peculiarities of the agency? The problem concerns how one benchmarks how NAMA is doing. We see €200 million per annum but NAMA was not set up as simply an asset recovery agency. It was set up to work in many other dimensions, obviously within a specific timeframe. Mr. McDonagh says it is not long-term so it is very difficult to be able to come up with the standard measure of return on investment, which I accept. At the same time, it is necessary, particularly in terms of the taxpayer, that there is some form of benchmarking.

I am still asking the question: "Why not?" I accept if Mr. McDonagh feels that the traditional model is not appropriate, but why not deal with it in a hybrid way or some other way so there is a rate of return and we can look at it? It also gives NAMA benchmarks in terms of being able to sell assets. The question is then what criteria NAMA can even apply. Any of the large multinationals or companies have a strict norm where they look for a return on capital before they will even consider an investment. If it is below a certain level, they will not touch it. The committee is asking why NAMA is making certain decisions and what benchmarking it is using.

Will you now reconsider, based on what the Comptroller and Auditor General has recommended, the provision of a return on capital employed or on investment, or some other measure that can act as a benchmark? This applies in most other sectors. When NAMA invests taxpayers' money it considers the investment in terms of a return of 15%. While I accept that it is using a particular model, it is still a form of return on investment.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The Vice Chairman made a good point on making a decision and looking for a return on investment. The reality is that NAMA was a State response and an involuntary purchaser of assets because it was the only purchaser of assets. I fully accept the point that NAMA is in a different space from most other entities. This was not lightly passed over by the board of NAMA when it reviewed the recommendation by the Comptroller and Auditor General, but we have to be mindful that we operate under certain constraints in that the Government's clear position is that it wants us to extinguish the contingent liability as quickly as possible. We are trying to do that in a way that avoids any additional costs to the taxpayer while recovering as much as possible of what was paid for the assets and, hopefully, an amount above that. That is the board's position. It was discussed by the board, although I am not saying it is something the board will not revisit. However, as the Vice Chairman pointed out, it is not an easy circle to square in the context of NAMA's diverse objectives and the fact that we are not in total control of our own destiny.

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not think the argument is that there are no measures or benchmarks in NAMA by which we can judge progress or which allow the Comptroller and Auditor General to indicate whether we are doing well. If one takes the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in the aggregate, there are benchmarks and conclusions that he has been able to reach in regard to NAMA's performance. Probably the difference between us is in the concept of an overall rate of return. The reality is that targets are set in all aspects of NAMA's businesses. For example, in regard to high-level yield assessments, there is a sense check when an asset is being sold to assess the return we should be getting. When investments are made by NAMA and they come to the board or through the executive, there is also an assessment of the return we should expect. The difference between us is probably in the concept of setting an overall rate of return. From our point of view, the argument against that goes back to the nature of NAMA and the type of vehicle we are, as outlined by Mr. McDonagh in his opening statement and later remarks. I assure the committee, however, that there are plenty of benchmarks.

How is the €600 million retained by developers spent?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General accepts that we have that information at individual debtor level. Since the Comptroller and Auditor General made that recommendation we have committed to changing our systems to be able to consolidate it, and we have started that project. We have full knowledge of where that money is and for what it is being used and, as I stated previously, we have financial monitors. Some 99% of the income is mandated to NAMA - that is, it is coming directly to NAMA rather than the debtor.

It is just not consolidated.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Absolutely. That is the point.

Mr. Daly referred to property disposals. The Comptroller and Auditor General reviewed 144 properties with gross proceeds of €1.3 billion to ascertain how they were dealt with in respect of best practice and prices obtained. He found that the majority of the properties were fine but he had further queries in respect of 26 properties, or 18%. In one case, for which details were not provided, a property was sold in Ireland for €27 million. It had been marketed and a winning bidder had been selected but the bid failed to complete. Another party competed at the same price but was not on the shortlist. No evidence was provided to show how the purchaser was selected, and the property was not returned to the market. Why was returning the asset to the market not considered as an option, why was the eventual purchaser not documented in a more comprehensive manner, and why were the underbidders not given the opportunity to match the price achieved? Mr. McDonagh probably knows the specific property to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred. What happened with this property?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The Comptroller and Auditor General accepted that there was an extensive marketing campaign for the property and that a number of people expressed an interest in it. The initial preferred bidder offered €27 million and other bidders offered between €16 million and €23 million. This occurred at a time when no property transactions were taking place in the Irish market in terms of office portfolios. We went exclusive with a particular bidder, who agreed to pay €27 million for the property. On the day before the closing, the bidder told us he thought he was overpaying for the property and that he wanted to price chip us by €2 million. NAMA has a policy of not accepting price chipping because if we start the process of accepting price chipping without good reason everybody could start to go exclusive and chip us at the end. We told the bidder that we had recently met representatives of an American fund which wanted to invest in Europe. They had come to visit NAMA and had heard about the property but had missed out on it. They told us if this property or a similar property came onto the market they would purchase it. The preferred bidder did not believe us and would only offer the lower price. We said we had another bidder, were not bluffing and would not sell it at the lower price.

Was the bidder given an exclusive right to bid?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. After the completion of an extensive marketing process, the bidder was €4 million ahead of everybody else.

The original €27 million bid was the result of a public tender.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes; it went to public tender. What happens is that all of the bidders get into a final-stage process. The successful bidder was €4 million ahead of the next bidder.

If he bidder decreased the offer by €2 million, it was still €2 million more than the next highest bid.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We told the bidder we would not accept a price chip because we wanted to establish the principle that NAMA does not accept price chips at the last moment for no good reason and that another party was prepared to pay €27 million. This party had bought only one other asset in Europe, in La Défense in Paris, and wanted the second investment to be in Ireland because this country was perceived as a good opportunity. As the original bidder did not believe us, we gave him a final opportunity to pay €27 million, but he decided he would only give us €25 million. We asked the agent asked whether the underbidders would pay us €27 million but the agent's advice was that €23 million would be the maximum offer. We rang the representatives of the American fund on the Monday to tell them that we were putting the property back on the market because the bidder did not complete at €27 million. They sent somebody to Ireland on the following day and they completed the transaction in three days at €27 million.

In hindsight, should that property have been put back on the market?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I do not think so, because at the time prices were falling rapidly in the Irish market.

Part of our job was to try to encourage people to invest in the Irish market as well. We had met this very reputable fund. They wanted to invest in Europe. They were quite prepared to pay €27 million for this property when the agent said that if we put it back on the market we would probably get €23 million.

What was the return on investment on that loan?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The yield at the time it was sold at €27 million was about 7.5%.

Above the value NAMA took it over at.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No. When we put that on the market, the price of €27 million was yielding 7.5%.

There were four other cases with a gross disposal of €500 million. There was no evidence that the properties had been openly marketed. NAMA was satisfied that there was evidence of fees paid by selling agents. Why were the four properties not put openly on the market? Is there a possibility that the properties in question were sold to NAMA employees or family members?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No.

How does Mr. McDonagh know that?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Because, since the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, we have gone to the actual agents and we have got written confirmation from the agents that they were openly marketed and they were on websites such as www.myhome.ie and www.daft.ie. The four properties were three residential properties and one piece of land. We have written confirmation from the agents that they were openly marketed and we have sent that on to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

On the disposals, in Mr. McDonagh's opening statement he said, "Bearing in mind that the last time we appeared before this committee in December, we were faced with serious but unsubstantiated allegations of wrongdoing in relation to loan acquisitions and valuation processes...". Am I correct that he is referring to the Barclays-McKillen case? Is it one of the cases?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Not necessarily. Basically, a national newspaper reported a story-----

Mr. Frank Daly

The committee was talking to us about a more general story that we had manipulated the loan valuation process, which we dealt with at that meeting on 20 December and which the Comptroller and Auditor General has also referenced.

With regard to the Barclays-McKillen case, will Mr. McDonagh explain the process again? Originally, NAMA was looking to give the Marylebone hotel group an extension of two years in terms of financing of approximately €660 million and that did not go ahead. A percentage of that loan portfolio was then sold on. How did that arise?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

There were negotiations with the company to try to extend the terms but there was disagreement among the shareholders in that company and because of that we felt uncomfortable about holding this loan where the shareholders were closely disagreeing with each other. We got offers from people to buy the loan off us at par debt and we took the offer to redeem the loan at par debt.

Was that put out to tender at the time?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No. We do not put par debt recovery out to tender because a par debt is the maximum we can recover.

What does Mr. McDonagh mean by that in layman's terms?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Effectively, if one has a €100,000 mortgage on one's house and goes into the bank to pay off €100,000 and the bank asks for €110,000, one will not give it to them and will only give them €100,000 back.

Did the agency have discussions with the Barclay group at the time? Am I correct that the group ended up buying that loan?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. A number of parties were interested in trying to refinance or buy the loan. A number of bids were made on it, starting off at about €600 million for the €660 million loan. We said we were not interested in that. In the end, we decided to sell to the party that came to us and made us the par debt offer.

I refer to social housing. Apart from having a traditional commercial property remit when it was set originally, NAMA had a social housing remit. The agency identified 4,653 units while demand was confirmed by the local authorities at 1,849 units. To date, the agency has completed 518 of them and 166 are contracted for. Why is it so slow?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

NAMA can offer properties to the housing agencies and to local authorities. They have to decide which ones they want. Then they have to line up what they call approved housing bodies, such as Focus Ireland, Clúid and other organisations like that, which will take the lease on these properties. Once they tell us they will take the lease and sign it, we will commit the funding to complete the properties. The reality is that many of these properties are probably between 60% and 70% complete and once we have a lease in place, it makes it commercial for us to put in the additional money to fix up the premises and deliver it. That timeframe is outside our control but once we get the lease, we get on and do it.

The good news is that by the end of this year we will deliver 1,100 of these units. The local authorities, for various reasons, rejected 1,600 of the units we offered them. We are in discussions with one local authority in Dublin regarding 500 of the 1,600 units which we put the money in to complete in the meantime, and they should be available in October. The local authority, because of the housing crisis, is now looking at taking those 500 units. If it takes them, we will have delivered 1,600 rather than 1,100 units, which is welcome in the circumstances.

It is slow. Where I come from the Elverys scenario, which involved NAMA, was a major issue. How much did the examinership cost in respect of the fees paid?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Examinership is very expensive. I do not have figures to hand but the last figure I saw was around €350,000.

Was that the total?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

Did the agency feel the company had to go into examinership? Was there a possibility of funding coming forward to prevent that? That is a question out there.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The reality is that we had done a deal with the management buy-out team to do a prepack receivership on it and their bank did not deliver the funding because they had not met the conditions of their bank at the time. Then another bidder came into the process and threatened to injunct the process if we completed with the management buy-out team. The receiver would not take the receivership as part of the prepack receivership because of this legal threat and, therefore, the only option available at the time, which we proposed to management, was examinership. The examinership was successful and the 700 jobs were saved. That was very important at the end of the day.

The lack of a benchmark for return on investment needs to be addressed. I ask the board to go back and re-examine this because, ultimately, if the return on capital employed is not built in, the agency's wider remit to get a proper return for the taxpayer, deliver social housing and bring credit to the wider economy may not be achieved.

Mr. Frank Daly

The Vice Chairman's first point related to the lack of a benchmark for return on investment-----

The global return.

Mr. Frank Daly

When one goes into the global return, the social dividend is introduced. I wonder how it would be possible to construct a benchmark that covers all those aspects, but we will certainly look at it.

With due respect, the agency has €36 billion in taxpayer's money under its remit.

There must be some form of benchmark by which we can look in from the outside and judge. Maybe it has to be a new construct.

Mr. Frank Daly

Certainly, we shall look at it, but the point we would make is that there are a whole lot of benchmarks which to the board seem more meaningful, to be honest, rather than constructing an overall benchmark in terms of rate of return, because of the nature of what we are, because of the lack of certainty about how long we will be there and because of the real need for us to be totally opportunist - put it that way - in availing of what is happening in the market. If we were setting a benchmark, for example, at the beginning of 2013, with the state the market was in then and the interest in Irish property and the investment interest here, and given what happened later in 2013, I think we would have had a fairly continuous revision of that benchmark and we would have been explaining why it was overachieved or exceeded. Really, just to examine all the value of getting into that, we will-----

Has NAMA sold loans at a loss?

Mr. Frank Daly

At a loss compared with?

Compared with acquisition.

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes. We are quite up-front about that. We have also sold loans at a gain.

Have there been significant losses?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The value of the loan is based on the value of the underlying collateral, the properties. So if the properties have dropped in value, then that determines, respectively, the value of the loan. In that instance they are all accounted for when we sell them through our P&L each year and they are outlined there.

We have a rising market. Do the witnesses believe there is a property bubble in Dublin? In that context and in terms of return for the taxpayer, would it not be more prudent for NAMA to run the risk of making a profit on the loans themselves as distinct from selling a significant portion of them at a loss at a particular point in time?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I would love to be in a position in which we could sell everything that we acquired at a greater value than we acquired them for. However, the reality is that the Irish property market had dropped 25% in the first three years after acquisition. We still have to generate cash. Let us not forget that one of the targets set by the troika for the Government was for NAMA to redeem €7.5 billion of its debt by the end of 2013. Sometimes we had to take the decision that we needed to sell things in certain quantity to get the cash in, but on the basis that we fundamentally believed that was probably the best price one was going to get no matter what the market circumstance was. So they are difficult decisions; they are not decisions that are taken lightly, but they stand up, and there is rationale for each of those decisions, which Comptroller and Auditor General sees.

I thank Mr. McDonagh.

I welcome the witnesses. How often do they meet the Minister for Finance?

Mr. Frank Daly

It varies. I could not say it was regularly once a month, but on average I would meet him or talk to him every three or four weeks. Sometimes Mr. McDonagh would meet him as well.

So they meet him fairly regularly. The witnesses have dealt with the issue of the target rate of return in some detail. I wish to examine it some more. I am sure the witnesses would agree that the Comptroller and Auditor General does not make recommendations lightly - it is quite a conservative responsible office. That office, even more than this committee, is vested with accounting for public agencies, public moneys and so on. Do the witnesses accept that?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I do.

Is it appropriate that NAMA would argue the toss with the Comptroller and Auditor General on a recommendation such as this? I accept that the NAMA board has a view, as Mr. Daly has stated, which is fine. Why should that view trump a recommendation from the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Frank Daly

We never set out to disagree with the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Comptroller and Auditor General has made several recommendations in his report which we have accepted and some of which we thought were very useful. For all the reasons we have been discussing here, we just took the view, in relation to the recommendation on the rate of return, that it is not something that would be particularly useful and it is something that might well end up giving a false impression of what we were achieving.

Deputy John McGuinness took the Chair.

Mr. Daly has set that out.

Mr. Frank Daly

It is important to say at the board when we were considering this we did want to assure ourselves that the Comptroller and Auditor General and everybody else had other benchmarks by which we could be judged and we feel that they are there.

Both witnesses have expressed that and I have no doubt that the Comptroller and Auditor General is aware of those alternative benchmarks. However, from the point of view of the taxpayer and the State, it is entirely reasonable that there would be a target rate of return, notwithstanding the need to be expeditious, the variables within the market and the very onerous task NAMA has undertaken. I am unhappy that NAMA has chosen to set aside that particular recommendation. I do not believe it augurs well for NAMA as an agency.

The witnesses cited the need to be expeditious and the fact that NAMA does not have an indefinite time horizon as part of its rationale for not accepting this recommendation for a target rate of return. Deputy O'Donnell has pointed to the function of NAMA and the fact that it is not a vehicle for a mass fire sale of assets. It has to be expeditious but it has no permission to be reckless. Regarding NAMA's resistance to the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendation of a target rate of return, I believe NAMA may have taken the views of the current Minister, Deputy Noonan, which I note Mr. McDonagh echoed in his opening statement. He told us, "We are also mindful of the stated view of the Minister for Finance - reiterated this week at the launch of our 2013 Annual Report - that NAMA’s main focus should be on reducing the State’s contingent liabilities [that is okay] as quickly as is feasible."

My concern is that in whatever interaction the witnesses have had with the Minister for Finance they have picked up on a political signal to wind things up quickly - the witnesses would use the term "expeditiously". On that basis, NAMA has given that priority over what I believe to be a very reasonable recommendation by the Comptroller and Auditor General and one that would be in the broader interest of the agency and the taxpayer. What does Mr. McDonagh make of that?

Mr. Frank Daly

May I make one important point on that? I have never discussed with the Minister the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendation in relation to an overall rate of return. From my point of view, that was a consideration by the NAMA board and a conclusion independent of the NAMA board. It has never been discussed with the Minister either during the process of the report or in our response to the report - although obviously, in our response to the report, the Minister would be aware of our conclusions. However, he has never discussed it with me.

In regard to the Minister's view or anybody's view about NAMA and its lifespan, I think everybody in this country has a view on NAMA's lifespan. The Minister has on occasion emphasised the fact, which is in the Act - and I think it has been understood right from the beginning - that NAMA should act expeditiously but responsibly and in a balanced way. I would argue that is what we have been doing. We have had the 2.26 review by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the 2.27 review by the Minister and the Department of Finance, and I have no doubt that the degree of expeditiousness will feature quite significantly in that review.

We have already said publicly - I have said it publicly and Mr. McDonagh has said it publicly - that having regard to the interest in Ireland, having regard to the portfolio of our assets and having regard to our capacity to generate cash and be very confident about repaying the senior debt, which is really the top priority all the time, and confident about paying the sub-debt - this year we paid a coupon on that for the first time, which was of value to the banks that hold that debt - we are well poised to finish our business before the 2020 estimate that has always been out there. Whether it will be in 2018 or whatever, I do not know as yet.

I do not doubt that that is Mr. Daly's belief and that he has arrived at that conclusion on a sound basis. I am not disputing that. What I am disputing with Mr. Daly is the appropriateness of his setting aside a recommendation of the Comptroller and Auditor General in respect of the rate of return. Taking account of the variables of which we are all very well aware, that was a reasonable recommendation, made by a person who holds a constitutional office. The Comptroller and Auditor General is not just anybody. He and his office are those to whom we as a committee look and, by extension, the taxpayers rely on for transparency as well as expeditious operation. As Mr. Daly did not agree with the Comptroller and Auditor General on that point, he is hardly likely to agree with me. However, I did not want to let it go without marking the cards of the board. I accept it has to go about its business but it should not have the luxury of cherry-picking recommendations made by the Comptroller and Auditor General. That is my strongly held view on it.

On the issue of open marketing, I thank Mr. McDonagh for his explanation in respect of 26 of the 144 cases and the €27 million. Did the agency learn any lessons from the queries that arose from the Comptroller and Auditor General's investigation of these matters? Has NAMA tightened up procedures or made any changes to address those issues?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. Everybody can improve. That is well accepted by us. We started off with no systems and by doing everything in Excel and Word. We now have in place a document management system and a portfolio management system. Because we also use the original banks from whom we bought the loans, part of the exercise involves getting the necessary documentation from them and attaching it to each transaction dating back to the commencement of NAMA. That exercise is well under way. That said, in regard to whether I wish in terms of the four cases concerned we had had explanations for the Comptroller and Auditor General report, I do, but we had to go back to the original agents and get letters from them showing that they were being openly marketed. We always believed they were openly marketed but they were small transactions done under a dedicated authority with the financial institutions. We had to step into the process with the agents to get the information.

Does Mr. McDonagh take my point?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Absolutely.

Whereas the Comptroller and Auditor General can report reasonable assurance that all is well, the standard in that regard must be higher. I understand there are few 100 per cents in life, but none the less given the scale of the portfolio which NAMA is managing and the volume of money involved and so on, reasonable assurance, although all right, is not the conclusion I am sure Mr. McDonagh would wish to see reported.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

As Accounting Officer I press my team for absolute assurance on everything we do. That is my standard and that of the board in terms of NAMA. The reality is that we want every transaction to have the paper trail hanging out of it. The Comptroller and Auditor General identified four instances in respect of which we could not produce the information at the time of his report. The Comptroller and Auditor General would be aware from his dealings with me over a long time that I do not accept not being able to explain things. We got the explanations and provided them to him.

I accept that. It was only four instances from a sample of 144.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

Can we expect that when we get the next report, procedures will have been tightened up?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Absolutely. Every transaction that happens now goes into a portfolio management system and all the documentation is linked between the portfolio management system and the document management system.

Thank you. I want now to turn to NAMA's secondary objectives, which are around social objectives. Is "social objectives" a good description of NAMA's secondary objectives?

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes.

There is an extra dimension to NAMA's work.

Mr. Frank Daly

There is a social dividend.

One would never imagine from Mr. McDonagh's opening statement that such objectives much less dividends were envisaged. I understand that the primary focus of NAMA is on realisation of the maximum value for assets and so on. I am not disputing that. Does Mr. McDonagh accept that his opening statement made no reference to these secondary objectives? While the Comptroller and Auditor General acknowledges these are subordinate objectives, they are objectives none the less, yet there is no mention of them in Mr. McDonagh's opening statement.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The presentation on my annual report contains information on the secondary objectives, social housing and so on.

I am querying why they are not mentioned in Mr. McDonagh's opening statement today.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

My intention was only to keep my opening statement as short as possible as per the request from the clerk to the committee. We take seriously our secondary objectives. We are doing a great deal in terms of trying to help by way of the provision of sites to the Department of Education and Skills and State bodies and in respect of the provision of social housing. We take those objectives seriously.

With no disrespect to Mr. McDonagh, I do not have a sense that that is the case. He will be aware that there are approximately 100,000 people on the social housing waiting list across the State. I am sure he is also aware of the crisis in respect of homelessness, runaway rents and the many other dilemmas. I am not, by the way, laying all of these matters at Mr. McDonagh's feet - far from it. However, I do want to explore NAMA's commitment to social housing. If I heard Mr. McDonagh correctly, he said that by the end of 2014, NAMA will have delivered 1,100, which is pretty minuscule.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We offered approximately 4,700 units, of which 2,000 have been accepted by the Housing Agency and local authorities as being suitable. We are working through the process in that regard. Some of the units require to be completed. While 60% to 70% have been completed, work on 30% remains outstanding, which work is providing employment for some people. We will deliver 1,100 units this year and there is potential to provide another 500 units which NAMA itself completed but have not been accepted by the local authorities. We are in discussions with the local authorities on various issues.

How many residential units does NAMA hold?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Approximately 16,000 units.

If my figures are correct, 4,653 units are deemed suitable. What is the basis for the cull from 16,000 to 4,653?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The majority of those units are units held by our debtors and receivers. They are not held directly by NAMA. The reality is that many of those units are already rented out to the private sector by the debtors and receivers.

Is Mr. McDonagh saying that of the 16,000 units, 4,653 are vacant?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have over time offered 4,653 units. Some 2,700 of those units are no longer available.

I will come to that in a minute. Please bear with me. There are 4,653 units vacant which, therefore, are in the mix for-----

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No, we offered 4,653 over the past two years to the local authorities and the Housing Agency, of which 1,600 units were rejected because of concentration issues or there not being in the right location.

Before discussing that, I am anxious to know about the 4,653. I would prefer if Mr. McDonagh could identify that there were 16,000 to make available. How did he call out this number from the 16,000?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

As we look through our portfolio and as units become available, we constantly offer them to the Housing Agency and local authority and ask them if they would be interested in the units.

Could some of this figure be repeat offers or are they separate units?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No, they are not repeat offers. They are discrete.

They are housing units.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The majority of our units are not houses. The majority of our portfolio is apartments.

NAMA offers these. Then NAMA has an interaction directly with the Housing Agency and the local authorities.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It is mainly through the Housing Agency.

They knocked NAMA back. They expressed no interest in how many of them?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In 1,600.

What was the reason for that?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In many cases they might not be in the right location. They might not be the type of product they needed in that location, or there are concentration issues. The local authorities seem to operate to a standard whereby they only like 20% social housing in a particular area. If we are offering units over and above that, they might well decide that they do not want them in that area. It is purely their decision, not our decision.

That was 1,600. The balance, over 1,000, were sold or let before the Housing Agency or local authority made their decision.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes, because the market is constantly moving all the time. A receiver or a debtor is trying to earn money or trying to pay back his debt. We can tell them to hold them for three or six months until the local authority makes its decision and if it does not make a decision in that time and they want to put these properties on the market or to let them or sell them, we cannot prevent that. We can only hold them for a certain period of time.

The local authorities therefore missed out.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes, potentially on 1,100 units.

Has Mr. McDonagh any explanation for that? Can he shed any light on it, in terms of NAMA's interaction with them?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No. As I said earlier this week in our annual report, we were a little surprised that when we offer units, people will not make a decision quickly enough. However, we are not party to that discussion.

Did the agency signal to the Government at any stage that this was happening and that there was a delay?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

To whom would the agency have signalled that?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have very close interaction with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing.

That is the Minister, Deputy Phil Hogan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. They would be fully aware of these figures.

They would have been aware that the local authorities were missing out or dragging their heels.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Absolutely. We would provide this table to them and their officials.

At what stage did NAMA make this known to them?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

All through the process. The first time we offered 2,000 units was when the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government asked us, which was in December 2012. Since then we have added to that to get it up to almost 4,700.

Of that, demand was confirmed for 1,849. There are 102 outstanding, with demand to be determined. What is meant by that?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The local authority and the Housing Agency are deciding whether they want those 102.

Of the 1,849 where demand has been confirmed, as of the end of March 2014 only 684 have been filled.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

What does that mean? Why the delay?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The Housing Agency must engage with the approved housing body, such as Clúid Housing Association or Focus Housing Association or whichever will take the lease, and the body must agree to sign the lease with NAMA to lease the properties. That is the next stage in the process.

What is Mr. McDonagh's view of this delay and what has he done to deal with this matter expeditiously?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

At the start, like the Deputy, we really could not understand why a delay was occurring. First, the approved housing bodies and local authorities were getting a capital grant from the Government to buy the units. The Government then said it no longer had the money to give them capital grants but said it would guarantee the lease payments instead. It took a while for them to accept the changed business model.

The other issue was that each approved housing body operated with different leases. There were different leases for each approved housing body, so NAMA decided that as it was going to be giving the leases to approved housing bodies it developed a standardised lease. This standardised lease is used all the time now. It does not change from one approved housing body to the next body. We also set up a special purpose vehicle, SPV, that would acquire the units from the debtors or receivers and take them out of the picture as an intermediary. We would buy the units onto the balance sheet and we would do the lease with the approved housing body on a standardised lease. We have done everything to streamline our end of the process. Once the lease is signed, we go on and spend the money to finish off the lease.

How proactive has the Department been in supporting NAMA, given that NAMA has done everything Mr. McDonagh said?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Since this started with us in December 2012, we looked for the bottlenecks in the system that NAMA could solve and we have solved every one of them.

Has the Government solved the other ones?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The issue surrounding demand and such matters has improved remarkably from where it started.

Mr. McDonagh is familiar with the figures. We have dealt with the figures, so we will look at the completed contracted units. The figures for Wicklow County Council, Waterford County Council, Waterford City Council, Sligo County Council, Offaly County Council and Mayo County Council are all zero. Does Mr. McDonagh understand what I am saying? It is also zero for Donegal County Council. The figure is 53 for Cork city, a big urban area. In Dublin city it is 163. It is lower in Dún Laoghaire, Fingal and so forth. I am not necessarily attributing responsibility for this to Mr. McDonagh or NAMA but I am conscious that, for the public, each time the Government addresses the issue of what it will do about housing and homelessness, NAMA is referenced in that regard. If not the first, almost the second word out of the Government's mouth seems to be "NAMA". Many people's expectations are now being pinned, by the Government, on the agency in respect of addressing these issues. However, when one examines the figures, it is lamentable that there are only 684 completed units. Is it not pathetic given the scale of the problem we have?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I would love to be able to say today that the entire 1,849 are occupied, but that is a factor outside our control. Everything that is in our control is being delivered.

Does Mr. Daly, on behalf of the agency, propose to have any contact with the Government now, given the fact that the Government references the agency and the agency is now part of the policy mix to deal with the housing and homelessness crisis? When does he propose to meet the Minister, Deputy Hogan, next and what does he propose to say to him? Will he make demands of him? The agency is now in the middle of this, as far as the public is concerned.

Mr. Frank Daly

We meet regularly with the Minister, Deputy Hogan, and with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. I am not sure when the next meeting is scheduled but I am sure it will be shortly. We go through the figures and the bottlenecks. All I can say on behalf of NAMA is that the figures the Deputy has been discussing are the reality of what we have available and it is the reality of what the local authorities or the housing associations are taking from us.

As the chief executive has explained, we have put every possible internal mechanism in place to expedite the transfer of these houses from the wish list of the local authorities or the housing association to actual delivery. To put it in context, NAMA is not the only body, in fact it is not anywhere near the main body, that is responsible for dealing with social housing in this country, but, as the Deputy says, we are now firmly part of the mix. We will have delivered 1,100 by the end of this year and possibly a great deal more next year. A total of 1,100 is small compared with the housing list.

Let me put it in context. There were only 1,300 units - houses or apartments - built in Dublin last year. In that context, it is sizeable.

If the Deputy wants to move beyond social housing to the other debate taking place about housing, demand and bubbles, again, we have committed to funding the delivery of 4,500 units to 2016. The Deputy may say 4,500 is not a huge number, but if she puts it in context, of the 1,300 built last year, she will see what NAMA is doing. We have identified potential sites over which we have control or for which we have security for a further 19,500 to be delivered to, I think, 2020. We are doing everything that we can; ours is not the only responsible body.

Mr. Frank Daly

There is no point in us offering houses or apartments which are currently let because one would end up with others coming out of them and one would still not address the overall housing problem.

I wish to be clear. I am not stating NAMA is the primary agency or that it bears primary responsibility for dealing with the homelessness or housing crisis, far from it, entirely the contrary. The Government has placed it front and centre in order to evade its responsibilities. That is my view and I am just alerting NAMA to this fact.

I wish to ask a question on rent revenue. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think I heard the figure was €3.5 billion at the end of 2013. Am I correct?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Cumulatively, at the end of 2013.

What proportion of that revenue was derived from residential rents?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I would say somewhere less than 20%.

Somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20%.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

Is the delegation aware of the fact that many tenants who live in NAMA properties - I accept that they are held by debtors but they are NAMA properties - have in recent times experienced massive increases in the rent being demanded from them? Is it aware of this phenomenon?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I am aware of it. The reality is that if a debtor is trying to repay all of his or her debts - some debtors have substantial debts - he or she will try to maximise the return on his or her portfolio. Clearly, there are downstream effects because of this. If one is a debtor with huge debts and a lease has expired, he or she is reflecting what is happening in the private sector market.

We are after talking about social housing and homelessness. NAMA is referenced by the Government as being part of the mix in the resolution of these two issues. The "downstream effects," as Mr. McDonagh put it, of massive hikes in rent include an increase in homelessness. Is he aware of that fact?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes; I have seen it reported.

I am sure, no more than other Dáil colleagues, that those on the receiving end of the downstream effects have, in increasing numbers, sought help from public representatives and so on. I wish to ask a question on their behalf. What influence does NAMA bring to bear? What influence can it bring to bear to have a level of moderation in rent demands? In some cases, the demands have been made by what I amost consider to be rack-renting landlords. Is there anything NAMA can do about this?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

First, when we acquired the portfolio, rents were declining. Second, rents declined by between 8% and 10% during 2010, but they are now going back up. There is a lack of supply. The only way to deal with a market in which there is an increase in demand is to have an additional supply. That is what we are focusing on. We are trying to fund developers to build additional units which will, I hope, deal with the issue. We cannot unilaterally or single-handedly deal with the issue. That is not our role.

I am not asking NAMA to do so. I merely wish to establish, as a matter of fact, whether NAMA can intervene in rent demands being made by some of its debtors?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

NAMA is contacted regularly about rents being increased substantially. It happened before, if the Deputy remembers, in the case of commercial rents when we introduced a mechanism to deal with the matter.

I am aware of that, but I am talking about residential rents.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have been contacted and in a number of cases in which we thought it looked a little peculiar - let me put it that way - we intervened and found a solution.

Has NAMA intervened to moderate rent levels?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Where we thought they were extremely excessive.

Did NAMA have a hand in setting the rent level, in the first instance?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No.

Is that down to the debtor?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The debtor usually has an agent or a receiver or the receiver has an agent who will rent the properties. That is the way it works.

NAMA has discretion to intervene and has intervened in some cases.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

One must be mindful of people's rights because they have liabilities hanging on their properties. We engage in a process of gentle persuasion and try to get people to be sensible.

We are also mindful of those who need a roof over their heads. I have a final issue to raise and I will then wrap up. I want to ask about the Carlton site and refer to Moore Street and the national monument. Without going through every twist and turn, the delegation will know that there is considerable public and political unease about what is proposed for the site. NAMA now holds the lands in question. Am I correct in saying this?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We do not hold the lands. We have loans for the company that owns the lands.

NAMA has an involvement in the matter. I have a question on spending. What has been NAMA's involvement in terms of support for the proposed development of the site? I refer to the planning application, consultancy fees and so on.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I think it has been reported that the site is subject to a planning application which will also requires the approval of the Minister responsible for heritage issues. On the basis that he approves the designation of the site for that purpose, a planning application will be submitted. On the overall costs, we are prepared to fund the debtor if planning permission comes through and the Minister responsible for heritage issues approves the designation of the site. The figure is in the region of €6 million to develop a centre to commemorate the events of 1916.

I will come to that issue, but in terms of the application process, there was no spend by NAMA in that respect.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The cost was not huge in the scheme of things. I think it is included in the figure of €6 million. It might be a couple of hundred thousand euro.

Can Mr. McDonagh give me the figure? I do not need it now; he can give it to me later.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I can give the Deputy the general figure. I do not want to talk about a debtor's specific assets because we are in the public domain. I think the overall cost, of development and planning, is around €6 million.

Does NAMA plan to set aside €6 million should the planning issues be ironed out and the development go ahead?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In trying to improve the commercial potential of the site and in terms of the planning restrictions, the buildings will have to be preserved in accordance with planning conditions. In generating a commercial return for us we know that, ultimately, the site may be sold and the cost will have to be dealt with.

NAMA is a State agency. Is it aware that other State agencies regard not just a portion of the terrace but the entire terrace and adjacent lands to be the most significant in modern Irish history?

That is the view of the National Museum. Is Mr. McDonagh aware of that? The Imperial War Museum-----

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We will operate within the laws. We will abide by whatever is decided by the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and Dublin City Council. Lots of people have lots of views. We fully accept that but we will operate with whatever-----

Are we not in the middle of a really bizarre contradiction? On the one hand, agencies of the State recognise how important it is to preserve this battlefield site in its totality and, on the other side of the equation, a State agency is proposing to set aside €6 million not just for the construction of a commemorative museum, but for the destruction of the lion's share of the site in its totality.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The reality is that we must operate on a commercial basis. In terms of the planning designation for that site and its future development, if it includes an area of preservation, that will have to be taken into account. The people who can designate the site are those in the planning authorities and the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. Once a decision is made, that informs us in terms of our commercial approach.

Does Mr. McDonagh not acknowledge my point, that it is bizarre to use €6 million of funds through a public agency-----

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We would do it on a commercial basis because effectively we bought the loans associated with that site and we have to try to get back the money we paid for those loans. As part of the process of us getting the site or the loans attached to the site sold, this issue must be dealt with. Whatever the planning authorities and the Minister decide will inform the commercial outcome for that site. If the relevant regulatory authorities decide on the size of that site, that is a fact of life for us on a commercial basis. My personal views on the issue do not come into it.

Does Mr. McDonagh have a personal view on it?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I do.

I hope so. How did NAMA arrive at the figure of €6 million? Finally, is Mr. Joe O'Reilly, the developer, still on the payroll?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The €6 million figure was arrived at by reference to the costings involved if a certain size of retention area has to be rebuilt and created as a centre of commemoration. That is how it has been costed out with engineers and quantity surveyors.

Who paid for that? Was that done on Mr. McDonagh's watch?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes, we have had to take account of it in terms of dealing with the whole commerciality of that site.

Obviously, NAMA incurred consultancy fees in that or was it done in-house?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

When the debtor incurs whatever costs he needs to incur to do it, the issue is that the company probably has to borrow that money from NAMA to do that work. The reality is that without that work being done, the whole site is of zero value.

Is Joe O'Reilly still on the payroll?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It is a matter of public record that Mr. O'Reilly is a NAMA debtor. I do not want to talk about individuals but he would be-----

I do. Is he on NAMA's payroll?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I respect that. It would not be unreasonable to assume that he is one of the NAMA debtors to whom we allow payment out of company overheads.

What is his salary? Is it still €200,000?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I cannot disclose that.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It is unfair to focus on one individual. We have three NAMA debtors who earn €200,000 per annum. They are debtors with substantial portfolios-----

-----and he would be one of them.

NAMA has costed out a €6 million enterprise, with an eye on the commercial dynamic of a site that both the National Museum and the Imperial War Museum have recognised as the only extant street battlefield site. It is absolutely outrageous. It is an outrageous misuse of NAMA and of public money. Sadly, if it goes ahead, unlike other policy decisions, it cannot be reversed. That is the nature of what is proposed. I imagine that we will return to these issues at a later stage.

Mr. Frank Daly

The €6 million enterprise is not totally commercial, as Mr. McDonagh has said. It includes preserving that site and getting it to a point where there will be a museum there. An awful lot of people have views on this. In fact, what has been proposed has been welcomed by some 1916 organisations, though not by others, I accept-----

-----including the Taoiseach and the President

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not think it is appropriate to challenge NAMA on this. There are other bodies charged with deciding what actually happens on that site. I do not think it is appropriate for NAMA to get involved in that aspect of the argument. Our clear position, as Mr. McDonagh has said, is that we will work with whatever is decided by the planning authorities.

I have a quick question for Mr. McDonagh based on his opening statement and then I have a number of questions for the Comptroller and Auditor General. Mr. McDonagh spoke about €14.1 billion in asset sales to date. Does that include Project Eagle?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No, because that has not completed yet.

When that completes, there will be an additional €5.7 billion.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No. The €5.7 billion sum is the par debt value of the loan. Unfortunately, we did not get €5.7 billion back for the loan because the value of the security was much lower than that.

What are we expecting to get back?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It has been speculated that we will get around €1.6 billion back.

When is that due to complete?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We are in the final stage of due diligence with the preferred buyer so hopefully it will complete by the end of June.

I want to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General a few questions about the report. How many drafts of this report were prepared before it was completed?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Many, but not all would have been circulated to either NAMA or the Department of Finance. There were three drafts that were shared with NAMA and the Department.

How does the process work? Are they able to comment on the draft?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Of course, yes. That is the point of sending the drafts for clearance. We invite them to give their comments and to make any corrections if they detect something that needs to be corrected. We also invite them to make comments or suggestions for additional material to be included or for material to be taken out. We make the judgment then, as to-----

There is no obligation on the Comptroller and Auditor General to take their comments on board. It is his decision as to what stands in the report. Is that correct?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Absolutely, yes.

Was there full co-operation from the Department and NAMA in that process?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There was certainly full co-operation in providing comments, yes.

Were any of the recommendations changed as a result of that process?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There might have been slight adjustments in the wording or the precision of the wording. I do not recall particularly but perhaps between the first and second draft we would have sharpened the focus of the recommendations. That would be my judgment-----

There was no substantial change to them.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No. That would be my judgment and my decision.

To clarify the parameters, the statutory obligation is to cover the first three years of NAMA but the report references activities in 2013 and 2014.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It does, yes. In terms of the timing of the report, when it was being prepared it became clear that changes were happening in the markets and we wanted to make the report as relevant as we could at the time of its publication.

Can certain of the Comptroller and Auditor General's findings relating to debtor performance, expected gains or property disposals be seen as timely as of this year?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

We tried, wherever we gave a finding, to explain precisely what time period it relates to. For instance, we present on page 56 the outcome relating to loans sold from the inception of NAMA to the end of 2012. Obviously, if there were sales in 2013, they would not have been included in that but the same kind of analysis could be done of sales in 2013, 2014 and so on. I would envisage that when we come back to do this next time around, we would try to present disposals in the first period as compared to disposals in the second period.

Did the Comptroller and Auditor General look at the 15% that is held and managed by the banks?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes. We looked at that.

That is included. Did the Comptroller and Auditor General look at the generation of €1 billion through the disposal of 144 properties in its review of property disposals? Is it correct that this is about 10% of what NAMA has achieved to date?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, it would be.

Is that a large enough sample to form a proper view?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There is the practicality of it, but I believe it is a reasonable sample and is bigger than a standard sample.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is a sufficient sample.

Thank you. I will now put questions to Mr. McDonagh on the 15% of the portfolio that is held and managed by the banks, which technically is in NAMA. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It is managed by staff in AIB, Bank of Ireland and Capita, now that IBRC is no longer is existence.

Are they paid by NAMA or by the banks?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We pay a fee, approved by the European Commission, which is the lower of cost or ten basis points. The costs last year were about 7.8 basis points.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report raised a concern about knowledge of the level of impairment of those assets in the banks - that the 12% figure may not be accurate. Is Mr. McDonagh taking a hands-off approach on this issue?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No. This figure was raised at the end of 2012. We explained at a previous meeting that NAMA took a view that it would deal with the largest debtors first, which made up the majority of the portfolio, so the top 200 debtors made up €61 billion of the €74 billion it acquired. The other 600 debtors are being managed by the banks because they had smaller exposures. We in NAMA spent all our time up to the end of 2012 looking at the largest debtors because, as in the Pareto principle, we felt that was where the biggest risk lay, and we were making sure we knew what was happening to those portfolios. Let me say what we have done since. In our 2013 report we increased the impairment on the 600 smaller debtors from 12% to 23%, following our comprehensive review of debtors. We have a final piece of work, and we have made a commitment, as part of our fulfilment of the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendations, that by 30 June 2014 we will have completed the work in full. That means we will have full oversight of the 800 debtors in the NAMA book.

That was not a great strategy, given the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General that the smaller debtors had greater impairment. The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General talks about an inverse relationship.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I do not accept the Deputy's assertion that it was not a great strategy. We had to build up the organisation to deal with the largest debtors first and we took a view, with the agreement of the Comptroller and Auditor General, that we would look at them on a general impairment basis. Now, by 30 June, all 800 debtors will be looked at on a specific debtor-by-debtor basis. It was a function of time.

Will that review by completed in time for the Department of Finance's next report?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Probably. There is a reasonable indication that it will probably be done.

Does the 15% of the NAMA book that is held by the bank relate to assets or portfolios below the threshold of €75 million?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The loan debt was below €75 million.

I understand that initially when NAMA was established, €5 million was the threshold for moving into NAMA.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In relation to AIB and Bank of Ireland, the threshold was €20 million, but in the other institutions there was no threshold.

Did the figures change? Did the €20 million threshold increase or decrease?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

At one stage, at the end of the term of the previous Government, there were discussions with the Central Bank about moving those sub-€20-million loans in AIB and Bank of Ireland into NAMA. When the Government took office, it was agreed with the Central Bank, the European Commission and the Government that the loans of €20 million or less in AIB and Bank of Ireland would stay with AIB and be dealt with as part of the stress test.

Okay.

There have been a number of strategic plans. The strategic plan in 2010 was to pursue all debts owed to the greatest extent possible, but in March 2012, the plan was revised and it was no longer the strategy to pursue all the debts but only to pursue those debts whose payment was necessary for NAMA to repay its borrowings. Why did that change come about?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We are still pursuing the debtors to the maximum extent possible. As with any strategic plan, the board refines its objectives, but every single day is about maximum debt recovery.

We have discussed this issue on a number of occasions. The reality is that the debtors who are working with NAMA are working to try to achieve the maximum possible return, but it is more than likely, having paid a salary to the person and paid the interest costs on the bonds issued by NAMA and the running costs, that NAMA will only achieve in effect the value at which it purchased the loan. NAMA will not pursue the debtor after that, and if the person has worked with NAMA, it will release him or her.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes, on the basis that the debtor has handed over his or her assets to NAMA. To date, as part of the price for debtors of working with NAMA, we have realised €800 million worth of additional assets from those debtors. I wish they had another €800 million, or assets of €8 billion, but they do not. They have made full sworn statements of affairs and we have engaged in asset searches, so we try to pursue every single asset.

The point is that once the sale is achieved, NAMA is not pursuing debtors beyond that, so once they achieve what NAMA purchased the loan for, they are free.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

They have also had to give us any unencumbered assets and reverse any asset transfers. If they have no more assets left and they have consensually worked with us, it is the case that one cannot get blood out of a stone.

I understand that, but that shift happened in 2012.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I do not accept that there was a shift. I think there was a refinement of the board's strategic-----

Based on the realities.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

If we could get €74 billion, we would get €74 billion. There is no instance of a debtor working with NAMA who retains assets. That is not the deal. The deal is that he or she puts everything on the table and NAMA will work with the individual and not bankrupt him or her. That is part of the deal of working with NAMA.

Is it not the case that a debtor could work with NAMA, dispose of his assets and walk away, and then find himself in control of the assets again, not directly but through another company?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I do not believe that is a possibility, because the individual will have to find money from somewhere to buy the assets. That is probably an unlikely scenario in the scheme of things.

At the price at which NAMA is selling the asset, the buyer believes that the value will increase. The reason they buy it is to make a return on it - they believe there is more to get out of the asset. NAMA has chosen to dispose of it at a point in time.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It depends on the market. We took a deliberate view from 2010 to 2013 that there was no point in flooding the Irish market with Irish property because it would work against NAMA. Yields in that time had dropped from 9% to 6%, so that was absolutely the right strategy. We decided to sell assets in the United Kingdom and we have sold some assets in London at a 3% yields. Do I believe that a 3% yield is a good price to sell at? I certainly do. Does the person who buys something at a 3% yield think it will be reduced to a 2% or 1% yield? That is hard to call.

Is a debtor working with NAMA, who is probably in the best position to help NAMA dispose of the asset, in a position to approach an investment fund saying that NAMA has a property on its books at X euro but he believes it can achieve more than X and that he can come and work for the investment fund when it has bought the property from NAMA? The debtor can walk out of NAMA and nip back into managing his property in the private sector. The asset can make a great deal more money and so can the individual.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The reality is that people who manage capital are capitalists and are trying to make a return on the assets. They do not hand over their money lightly. We do not sell the asset lightly either. We believe we get the best price for it at a particular point in time. If we sell the loan book of a particular debtor to a private equity fund and the private equity fund decides to employ the debtor to work on management of the portfolio, that is at the discretion of the equity fund.

That possibility gives the debtor an incentive to manipulate the sale and have the asset undersold, in other words, sold at a value that is less than could have been achieved.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

NAMA employs people who understand the market and what the assets are worth. If one has an open market process and multiple bidders on the portfolio, one will get the best price for the assets on the basis that it is being sold on the open market and everybody has the same information. We run a process and set up a data room so that everybody has access to the information. There is very little information, if any, that the debtor would have.

Does a major conflict of interest not arise if, for example, following a successful bid for a property or portfolio, the debtor walks away from NAMA, joins the company whose bid was accepted and starts to work on the property outside NAMA?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We cannot control what those who buy the asset do with it afterwards. What we have to do is satisfy ourselves that we get the best price for the asset. If that occurs, we are satisfied to accept responsibility for it.

To return to my point, NAMA is pursuing the price on the asset rather than the debtor for what he or she owes the agency. There is a point at which that relationship breaks.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

If a debtor is still working with NAMA at this stage, four years after the agency was established, we will have squeezed him for everything we can in terms of assets. That is the reality. If the debtor has not been co-operating with NAMA, we will have taken the asset off him by appointing a receiver where the loan is in default and pursuing judgment against him. That is what we have done. In the case of some assets that we bought, we have paid €100 million for them and we are getting €110 million for them now because the market has improved. In the case of another asset we may have bought for €100 million we may only get €85 million back because the market has disimproved. We have to make that decision at a point in time based on the best information available to us.

Is a new strategic plan required given the new policy direction from the Minister?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The new policy direction from the Minister will be decided when he publishes his section 227 report. This will give direct guidance to the board of NAMA in terms of what the Minister believes NAMA should do. If he believes NAMA should run out to 2020, that will give us a timeline to work out the assets. If he feels NAMA should work to 2018 or another date, that will inform the board of NAMA and definitely result in us adopting a new strategic plan to deal with that.

It was reported at the beginning of the year following a meeting in Davos that the Minister was considering instructing NAMA to expedite its sales process.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In discussions he has had with me and the Chairman, who can answer for himself, the Minister has said that everything is up for consideration as part of his section 227 review. He indicated at the launch of our report two days ago that he hopes to have the review issued before the summer recess. I and, I believe, the Chairman, do not know any more than that in terms of the Minister's thinking.

Mr. Frank Daly

That is the position. The Minister has made some statements about this matter. At the end of four years, it is appropriate that there should be a look at where NAMA is going. One has to look at the issue in the context of what has been achieved and investor interest in Ireland. We have already been able to accelerate our sales and debt repayments. One also has the IBRC liquidation. All of these issues are in the mix. The Deputy can be assured that the board has already discussed this matter. When we get the outcome of the Minister's review, we will review the strategic plan. We review it on an interim basis every quarter anyway and we have a major review every year.

Did NAMA have any indication, either ahead of the review or at the beginning of the year or following discussions that were held at Davos or elsewhere, as to what are the Minister's intentions?

Mr. Frank Daly

No, but from what the Minister has said and general conversations, it would appear that everything is to be considered.

Are these general conversations between the Minister and Mr. Daly or in the media?

Mr. Frank Daly

They are conversations with the Minister.

The Minister has stated that NAMA should complete its work of deleveraging the portfolio as quickly as possible.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

He said that at our press conference this week. He stated that when he took over as Minister for Finance, he used to be told on his visits to Frankfurt by officials there that there was a big black hole in IBRC and NAMA and that these were additional contingent liabilities to the State which should be realised. He indicated at the press conference that he was glad to be able to say that after the liquidation of IBRC, there would be a surplus and NAMA was also heading in that direction. He said the State's contingent liability would have been reduced from €43 billion to €15 billion by the end of the year and this has certainly removed that issue.

Mr. Frank Daly

He noted that the recent Moody's upgrading of Ireland specifically referenced the IBRC liquidation and NAMA's earlier and accelerated bond repayment. Our target for this year is to have 50% of our senior debt repaid two years ahead of schedule.

Does the board of NAMA not ask the Minister to clarify the comments it is hearing given their importance in the context of how the agency operates?

Mr. Frank Daly

The review is ongoing and is, I presume, informed by the review of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the views the NAMA board conveys to the Minister. We expect that we will part of the dialogue in that review. At some point - the Minister indicated it will be June or before the summer recess - he will go to government with the outcome of his review. We have engagement with the Department and Minister on that. If we have views as a board, and we do, we will convey them as part of that review.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The Minister is fully aware that NAMA is accelerating sales and is two years ahead of schedule. He is very comfortable with that.

NAMA is accelerating sales based on the 2012 plan. It is not as if there has been a new direction.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

As Mr. Daly noted, we do a comprehensive review in late January and early February each year once we know what the previous year end looks like. As part of that review, we look at where the market is, how many assets we can realise and timing decisions. All of that forms part of our strategic plan.

Mr. Frank Daly

To return to my earlier point, which never goes down well with purists who argue that when one has a strategic plan, one should stick to it, we have to be opportunistic because of where we are, the type of agency we are, the volatility in the market and investor interest in Ireland. We have a strategic plan and while it is very important, we would never be absolutely hidebound by it if circumstances change. The Northern Ireland portfolio, to which the Deputy referred, is a very good example of that. It would not have been a strategy of NAMA last year to sell this portfolio in its entirety. However, an interest was expressed and it was very appropriate to ask whether such a sale would be a good outcome for NAMA and Northern Ireland. If such an opportunity comes, one jumps at it, examines whether it is viable and goes with it.

In terms of properties to be disposed of, we have spoken previously about the assets NAMA has disposed of to date, which are higher value assets abroad and a smaller number of assets in Ireland. We also spoke about looking ahead at how one achieves the targets one needs to achieve to repay the bond debt. I have expressed concerns about the ability to do this given the mix that is left. The Comptroller and Auditor General, in his report, appears to be sceptical that NAMA will be able to achieve this target, which he appears to consider over-ambitious.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We constantly have to be ambitious. We are very comfortable with that. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report refers to our 2012 strategic plan. At that stage, we planned to redeem €15 billion of our debt by the end of 2015. We will have redeemed €15 billion of our debt by the end of 2014, which is two years ahead of schedule. To hit the next target, we will probably sell a further €17 billion of assets by the end of 2016. In terms of profile, these assets will include about €7 billion in assets in Ireland, close to €7 billion in residual assets we have in the United Kingdom, many of which, thankfully, are in London and the south east where there is still a very high demand for assets and prices are good, and about €2 billion in assets in the rest of the world. The Northern Ireland portfolio will make up close to €1 billion, which will bring us to the figure of €17 billion. We are highly confident that we will achieve that target because 92% of our assets in Ireland are in urban locations, namely, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and the commuter belt.

While it is good to be ambitious, that was not the point the Comptroller and Auditor General was making. I understand his point is that NAMA's objective was not realistic.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In 2006 there was €3 billion worth of commercial sales in the market. That dropped to €99 million in 2009.

It recovered in the next few years and last year it hit over €2 billion. This year the prediction is for €4 billion of sales in the Irish market, which is higher than the peak in 2006. In the first five months of this year we have sold close to €1.1 billion worth of Irish assets. Those are completed transactions. We have other portfolios on the market for which there is huge demand. We will probably make sales worth over €2 billion in the Irish market this year. We sold only €800 million of assets between 2010 and 2012 in the Irish market but will sell three times that amount in 2014.

What level does NAMA expect to achieve in 2014?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Somewhere over €2 billion.

The sales worth €12.1 million of six properties that were not on the open market went to State bodies in Ireland and Great Britain. Is there something in the Act that allows the State acquire an asset from NAMA without its being marketed?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The board published its own policy in 2010 to the effect that if a State body wanted to acquire an asset, for example, if the Department of Education and Skills wanted to acquire a school site or a local authority needed a site for whatever reason, we would get an independent valuation of the site and if they could pay that value we would give them first option to acquire it.

Did that apply also to the State bodies in Great Britain?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In some instances, the Department might require a site for a school. NAMA might own the rest of the land but under planning conditions, NAMA would have to give the school site to the Department. We might as well do that with grace.

On page 57 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report there is a reference to 26 properties where there was no evidence of open marketing. It continues, "NAMA stated that it engaged with the eventual purchaser, who had previously expressed interest in acquiring NAMA-controlled assets." This is the property worth €27 million. How had that purchaser previously expressed an interest? Did the purchaser approach NAMA?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Part of our work at the start-up of NAMA between 2010 and 2012 was to try to attract foreign capital to invest in Irish assets. This US fund, which had many billions of dollars to invest, decided that it wanted to invest in Europe. It came to visit us. It had bought its first property in Europe in La Défense in Paris and thought there was a good commercial opportunity to buy property in Dublin when nobody else was buying it. That is what it does. It had visited several agents in Dublin and became aware that we had recently sold this building for €27 million after it had been on the open market for a long time.

The purchaser went into exclusive mode and tried to drop the price on the day of closing. A representative of the US fund came to us and said that if that building became available he would be interested in it and any other building of similar quality. When the exclusive bidder withdrew from the process we offered the property to the American fund which closed the transaction within three days at the price for which we had offered it on the open market.

Is NAMA closer to certain purchasers than to others?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No.

Is there an obligation on NAMA to declare gifts and hospitality received?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. We are not allowed to accept gifts or hospitality.

Could a venture fund invite people from NAMA out to lunch to discuss a range of portfolios and pick up the tab?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We do not allow people to accept gifts or hospitality.

Is it possible for something like that to happen?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It is possible but there is a code of conduct for our staff that people working in NAMA are not allowed to accept such hospitality. That is not the way we operate.

I will pick up on a point Deputy McDonald was pursuing. Mr. McDonagh referred to three NAMA debtors being on the payroll. Could he expand on that? Are they developers?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

They are not on our payroll. They are debtors who have loans who help us to manage the underlying assets to realise the value of the loans.

Is that to companies they are connected with?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. Their debtors.

How much are they paid?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Does the Deputy mean how much the three are paid?

Yes. Mr. McDonagh can give the cumulative figure if he does not want to give individual amounts.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Cumulatively there are 134 debtors who are allowed to take overheads out of rental income. They are paid €11 million, which is an average of €70,000 each.

What is the top one paid?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The top three are paid €200,000.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

Does Mr. McDonagh regard that as a fairly justifiable use of public money?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The alternative is to remove the debtor and appoint a receiver, who will appoint an asset manager. That would cost a multiple of €200,000. It is a purely commercial decision.

I was in an office not very long ago in the centre of Dublin with a group of professionals, whom I do not want to name. I asked them how they explained the fact that they still occupied such luxurious offices and they said it was all down to NAMA.

I see some very chunky figures in NAMA’s administration expenses which seem difficult to explain. Could Mr. McDonagh give us a breakdown of the master servicer fees of €3 million and the primary servicer fees of €52 million?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The primary servicer fees are the fees that we have paid to the banks for which we acquired the loans which employ approximately 500 staff to help us administer the loans. They are people who originally worked in AIB, Bank of Ireland and IBRC, which has gone into liquidation. That service is being provided by Capital Asset Services.

Is it in effect money paid directly to the employees of the banks?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We pay the banks and they pay the employees.

What are the others?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We acquired loans from five institutions which had to give data from five different systems. The master servicer provides a consolidation system to take the information from five different banking systems consolidating them into one so that we can have a core management information system, MIS, to consolidate the debtors across portfolios and give us MIS which feeds into the accounting system.

Where do auctioneers and valuers feature? I do not see them.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

When assets are sold they get a commission from the sales proceeds.

There is no figure for what NAMA pays them.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We do not pay them directly. That comes out of sales proceeds when the assets are sold by the debtors.

How much is paid to auctioneers out of the assets?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Typically the fees are approximately 1% of the sale proceeds.

Does Mr. McDonagh have a cumulative figure?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have probably sold €14 billion worth of assets and 1% of that is €144 million.

That sum has been paid to auctioneers.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It has been paid to auctioneers, valuers, loan sales agents, whatever the case may be.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It is an average of 1%.

How did NAMA come up with 1%?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We advise them that we need to negotiate a reduction in fees on the basis that they will get business from NAMA debtors and receivers. We set up a benchmark, which is approximately 1%.

It is a huge amount of money going into auctioneers' pockets.

Mr. Ronnie Hanna

It would be recognised in the market that NAMA has brought down all professional fees over the past few years because we have tendered competitively and rigorously and set benchmarks. We have introduced fixed fees which were not previously in the market. It is recognised to our credit. The professionals would complain that we are keeping it very tight.

I think many people would disagree; 1% is very high, especially when NAMA has the advantage of scale. Many individuals are paying a lot less than that just to sell their houses. The effect is that NAMA is paying out €144 million.

If I may deal with another matter, each member of the board of NAMA earns approximately €50,000. Is that a basic fee?

Mr. Frank Daly

The basic fee is €50,000. Each board member chairs a statutory committee of the board, for which the fee is €10,000. The fees generally are €60,000. The fee for the chair of the credit committee - because it meets at least once a week, and often more regularly - is €75,000. That individual gets €75,000 in total for board membership and chair of the credit committee. As chairman I get a fee of €150,000.

Most members of the board chair a committee?

Mr. Frank Daly

Every member does so.

So every member of the board gets €60,000.

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes. NAMA has four statutory committees and two advisory committees which have to be chaired.

They all get €60,000. The board fees seem to have increased cumulatively, as have board expenses. I refer to an item on board expenses.

Mr. Frank Daly

The board fees would have come down over the years.

Individually they may have, but cumulatively they have actually gone up. I refer to an item on board expenses. There seems to have been a settlement with the Revenue Commissioners. Is that correct?

Mr. Frank Daly

In relation to expenses, yes. It related to a general ruling that the Revenue Commissioners issued last year, I think, about the taxation of expenses payable to members of boards generally - both private and public sector - stating that expenses between one's home and one's place of work were taxable. We have three board members, one of whom resided in the United States at the time he was on the board, one of whom resides in the UK and is a current member of the board, and one of whom resides in Limerick. It was a Revenue ruling of general application that those expense payments were taxable, so we paid them.

It was necessary to also pay a back payment.

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes.

Because the right tax was not being paid, or NAMA paid it on their behalf.

Mr. Frank Daly

We paid it on their behalf on what seems to us the reasonable basis that if somebody incurs flight costs or whatever costs to come from the UK or from the United States to Dublin - actual flight costs - if one then imposes a tax charge on the individual in respect of that, it will be difficult to get members for the board.

What was the amount of the back payment NAMA had to make?

Mr. Donal Rooney

It was €85,000 in total.

Was that payment on behalf of Mr. Seelig?

Mr. Donal Rooney

It is broken down between two individuals, about €8,000 for Mr. McEnery and about €76,000 for Mr. Seelig.

Mr. Frank Daly

Mr. Ellingham was not on the board at the time so there was no retrospective payment, but it will be accounted for in future.

He lives in the UK.

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes.

Has Mr. Daly any say or input into who is appointed to the board?

Mr. Frank Daly

The appointments are made by the Minister for Finance. Going back to the origins of the board, I certainly had no say in the composition of the first board, but from time to time afterwards when there are vacancies the Minister or the Department of Finance might discuss names with me and I would generally meet the individuals who were being considered, just to talk to them about NAMA and to see that they fully understood what they were getting into, and also to get some assessment of their skill set. However, I do not have a say in the appointment.

Is there a procedure of any sort?

Mr. Frank Daly

There is a general procedure that expressions of interest are invited for membership of State boards. That may have happened last year or the year before. Anyone can apply. Some names have been suggested from time to time. Let me put it this way. I do not think NAMA is the easiest board in the world to get people to join, and we also have issues around conflict of interest, maybe with regard to what people were involved with in the property sector in the past or in the banking or financial sectors. These considerations restrict the pool. It is difficult enough to get people.

But there is no procedure, in fact, because the Minister makes the appointment.

Mr. Frank Daly

The Minister makes the appointment, but that is the Minister's statutory function.

That is correct. However, I am interested to know whether Mr. Daly has an input. Does he talk to them from time to time when they are coming in beforehand?

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes, I do. If somebody is being proposed or considered for the board, the Minister would generally ask me to meet them and talk to them and to just give a general assessment.

Has Mr. Daly ever assessed somebody who has been turned down?

Mr. Frank Daly

No.

Are there any vacancies at the moment?

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes; there are two vacancies.

When will they be filled?

Mr. Frank Daly

I think that is a matter for the Minister, but we have had a recent appointment to the board, so there are two further vacancies which are being considered.

I note a recent appointment to the board. Did Mr. Daly meet her in advance?

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes.

Was Mr. Daly aware of her Fine Gael connections?

Mr. Frank Daly

I was, because she was very up-front about the fact that she is a trustee of Fine Gael, but she is also, as I understand, not in any way active in the Fine Gael Party.

She is a trustee but not active in the party.

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes. She is a trustee of the party, as I understand.

That would seem to me to be an activity within the party.

Mr. Frank Daly

I am not sure it is a political activity as such. I was more interested in the individual's background, capacity, skill set and interest in the board, and I was very satisfied with all of those.

Her curriculum vitae appears in the annual report. Why was her Fine Gael background not included?

Mr. Frank Daly

Why did we not put in that information?

It is a very significant part of-----

Mr. Frank Daly

I am not sure that-----

It is a very significant part of her career.

Mr. Frank Daly

I think a CV relates to one's professional experience and occupation.

Mr. Daly knows as well as I do that these appointments are often made because of political cronyism and favouritism. There is no doubt about that whatsoever.

Mr. Frank Daly

I certainly-----

It would be much more up-front if, whatever her qualifications - no doubt they are probably very good, as Mr. Daly says - it was made absolutely clear that she had a background with political loyalties. Does Mr. Daly agree?

Mr. Frank Daly

There are very many people in this country who have political loyalties and backgrounds and it is not really for me to judge that or the extent of it. I just look at the individual in terms of their suitability on the basis of their experience and their skill set and their commitment or likely commitment to the board. It is probably unfair to be talking about one individual, but with regard to that individual, I had no issues-----

I do not think it is unfair to talk about one individual; I think it is perfectly fair to talk about one individual. These sorts of things probably benefit from being aired in public rather than not being aired in public. That individual has certainly got qualifications which might entitle her to be on this board. I agree with Mr. Daly on that point.

Mr. Frank Daly

Absolutely.

However, there are also other material factors in her career which were not published in the CV which is in the board papers and which in my view are relevant. She has a history. She was a political appointment to the board of Telecom Éireann.

She also served on the board of Pobal and she is now on the board of Bord Gáis. The latter is also as a result of a political appointment. This is part of a pattern, which means that it is important to examine whether appointments to boards - and, in particularly that of our guests' organisation - are being made regardless of political merit. These are matters which the public should be entitled to assess. It is a pity NAMA did not state that this person is extremely capable and that she is well qualified to be on the board. It is also a pity it did not state upfront that she has a political background. This is a political appointment of someone who was obviously a political activist in the past.

Mr. Frank Daly

I have judged everybody appointed to the board of NAMA - without exception and since the establishment of the agency - on the basis of his or her skillset, relevant experience and commitment. I have been with NAMA for four and a half years and I have never known any sort of issue to arise around political affiliation or anything of that nature. That is what I judged the most recent appointee on and that is my experience of the others. The individual was quite upfront about this. The Deputy states that it should have been included in her CV. I would differ with him in that regard. CVs relate people's background commercial experience.

Does Mr. Daly understand the point I am making?

Mr. Frank Daly

I do. It is not for me to discuss appointments to other boards. In the context of this individual and other boards, however, the Deputy also stated in passing that her membership of such boards was the result of political appointment.

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not know that to be the case. I had no involvement with the boards of Telecom Éireann or Bord Gáis.

No, but Mr. Daly knows that they were political appointments.

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not actually.

How does Mr. Daly think directors are appointed to the board of Bord Gáis? Are people interviewed in the normal way?

Mr. Frank Daly

All appointments to State boards are generally made by the relevant Minister. That is the process.

Mr. Frank Daly

It is a statutory process and it is quite open.

Correct. I am sorry to see that NAMA is succumbing to the same process of not being upfront about the fact that many of these appointees have political pedigrees. The coincidence of they always being of the same political pedigree of the people in government is a little difficult to stomach.

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not believe, in any way, that the NAMA board has been politicised.

I think it would have been better if NAMA had put it upfront rather than left it to others to discover and reveal it.

Mr. McDonagh - very nobly - has not taken a bonus. Will that continue to be the case?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. I have not accepted a bonus and I do not intend to do so.

For how long?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

For as long as I am in this position.

Is anyone in NAMA in receipt of a bonus?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No.

Is there any intention to re-introduce bonuses?

Mr. Frank Daly

I will deal with that. Nobody in NAMA is in receipt of a bonus. However, during this meeting we have been discussing a very challenging scenario. No matter what happens in NAMA, and regardless of whether it is the accelerated repayment of our debt and all the commensurate sales activity required in that regard or the adoption of an even more accelerated type of approach, one matter about which the board would be concerned relates to the agency's ability to attract and retain the staff needed to manage the relevant process. I have stated previously at this committee that the last position NAMA wants to be in is to be unable to match the activities of the A-teams which operate on behalf of hedge funds, equity funds, etc., and which deal with us. We have a problem in retaining staff at present, not least because the market has greatly improved. It is a concern of the NAMA board that in order to, in some way or other, make it attractive for staff to remain with us for what could prove to be a very short time if the agency is wound up - effectively, they would be out of a job at that point - we need to put in place some sort of retention plan that will incentivise them to stay. This is not an argument about whether or not NAMA staff are well paid, it is a very practical argument in respect of the fact that there are plenty of opportunities for them in the market. If NAMA does not have the capacity to ensure that they remain in their current positions, that will prove detrimental to its objectives.

I take Mr. Daly's comments to mean that bonuses are back.

Mr. Frank Daly

No, they are not back. Absolutely not.

Will they be back?

Mr. Frank Daly

We cannot introduce bonuses. All I am saying is that the board will be obliged to consider whether, in the absence of some incentive, the agency will be able to retain the people it needs. This is a matter of concern to the board and it is something which it discusses from time to time in the context of the agency's overall objectives. Like other State bodies and the remainder of the public service, we are governed by the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest, FEMPI, Act. As a result, there is no question of us paying bonuses or of us being in a position to pay them even if we had taken a decision to do so.

How does NAMA intend to address what it regards as the need to put in place these incentives?

Mr. Frank Daly

At some stage we will be obliged to seek to engage with the Minister about whether we can address the particular issues in question which relate to NAMA whereby people who are on fixed-purpose contracts and who have no rights to redundancy payments or anything of that nature are being asked to do their utmost to, in effect, work themselves out of a job. That is a rather unique mix or construct and I think we will seek to engage with the Minister in respect of it. What the outcome of that will be, I do not know. Everybody in NAMA, like all of those sitting around this table, is conscious of the wider issues which obtain in this country in respect of pay and bonuses. The point I am making is that NAMA is a unique construct. In effect, it is an agency which is seeking to cease operations within a very short number of years. In order to do that effectively and continue to obtain the best financial return possible for the taxpayer, the right people are required.

What is NAMA going to request of the Minister?

Mr. Frank Daly

I am not sure. This is a matter which the board of the agency is going to be obliged to discuss some more. As a result of the fact that all NAMA staff are employees of the NTMA, there would have to be total sign-off by the remuneration committee of the latter. There is a process of discussion in which we must engage and bring to a conclusion. In my opinion, we need to bring it to a conclusion fairly soon because we are losing staff. We have lost 15 staff this year and 29 overall. We know that other staff are looking elsewhere at present.

So NAMA will be seeking to offer people higher salaries or to improve their overall packages.

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not want to go into the detail right now.

It is obvious-----

Mr. Frank Daly

What we will be trying to do is construct something that would take the form of a retention payment rather than anything else. Its purpose would be to say to people that if they remain with us for the next two or three years and if they and NAMA meet their targets - these will be decided when the review is complete - then at the end of or during that process, and on a deferred basis, they might receive an extra payment. Any detail beyond that is not something I wish to discuss.

It is a bonus by any other name.

Mr. Frank Daly

It is a retention payment.

A loyalty bonus.

Mr. Frank Daly

It is very important to say that it would be for retention and performance.

A performance bonus.

Mr. Frank Daly

A performance bonus for staying and working hard.

So NAMA is seeking either loyalty or performance bonuses.

Mr. Frank Daly

Nobody is more conscious of the wider context relating to this matter than myself and the board. However, we are also faced with the practical reality that in order to achieve our targets, we need to ensure that we can retain or, if necessary, attract the right staff. That will be a short-term process but it needs to be undergone.

It is a discussion we will have to have with the Minister. I am very well aware of the wider ramifications of that around the system but as a board we have to raise these issues. If we put out targets, we have to be realistic and say if there are risks to the achievement of those targets. We have to be upfront about that.

Will this include Mr. McDonagh?

Mr. Frank Daly

Mr. McDonagh has very clearly said to me, and he said it here again this morning, that he does not intend to be part of any bonus payment in NAMA.

So Mr. Daly will not include him in his submissions.

Mr. Frank Daly

The Deputy needs to be clear. We have approximately 370 staff in NAMA. There is no job for life there. By and large, it is fixed term contracts. There is no entitlement to redundancy, and we have to be conscious of that in a business sense.

Mr. Daly would find himself fairly out of touch with the current economic environment if he started looking for bonuses for people-----

Mr. Frank Daly

I was making the point that I am very much in touch with the economic environment. I am very conscious of the wider environment but if, as a board, we set targets and if there are risks to the achievement of those targets, we have to identify them.

What is the average-----

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not know what may come out of this. It may be nothing, but we have to articulate it and we have to-----

What is the average payment of a NAMA employee?

Mr. Frank Daly

It is €90,000.

The average pay is €90,000.

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes.

And Mr. Daly will be looking for more money for the bulk of those people.

Mr. Frank Daly

I said at the outset that I am not arguing about the pay levels in NAMA. I am talking about the practical reality of holding on to people one absolutely needs in a market that now is prepared to pay them much more attractive rates. It is not arguing per se about whether the pay levels are high, low or whatever. It is saying that this is an issue that has come up that the board needs to consider. I do not expect that it will be easy to get agreement on this, but the board's responsibility under the Act is to get the best financial return we can for the State. We are saying the best way to do that is the strategic plan, the approach we have. It is also our responsibility to identify any risks to that, and one of the risks is that we cannot get the right people. There are other risks as well which we talked about earlier.

The idea that NAMA will be looking to top up an average pay of over €90,000 is mind-boggling in the current climate. I am finished.

I would not say the Deputy is finished. He has concluded asking his questions.

The Deputy is far from finished. I am conscious Mr. Daly is here since 10.30 and I am obliged to ask him if he would like to take a break before he takes the next set of questions from three members. He can either have a break or go on.

Mr. Frank Daly

We will go on.

Deputy Dowds.

I thank Mr. Daly, Mr. McDonagh and their team. I want to ask about the area of housing. How many housing units does NAMA have on its hands and to what extent have housing units gone out on the market? Obviously, housing units could be apartments or any type of housing. I ask that question because as Mr. Daly is aware, there is a housing crisis, particularly in this city. If Mr. Daly has had talks with the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, will that lead to some housing units being made available under social housing?

We dealt with that earlier, Deputy.

I apologise. I had to be in three different locations today. I apologise for asking the question. If Mr. Daly does not wish to answer I can read the transcript.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We are very conscious in terms of the housing demand. We have made about 4,700 units available to the Housing Agency and about 2,700 of those 4,700 units are no longer under consideration because they have been rejected or sold or rented in the meantime.

I am sorry. I did not catch that second point.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

They have been sold in the meantime.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Some 2,700.

That is out of the 4,700.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. Currently, 2,000 are active and under consideration and by the end of this year, 1,100 of those 2,000 will be delivered. There is a potential of 1,600 units, which were rejected by local authorities originally because they said there was too much of a concentration in one particular area in Dublin where we have 500 units coming on stream in October. The local authority might take those 500 units now. That means potentially we will deliver 1,600 units by the end of this year, which will be a good-----

Through local authorities.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Local authorities and housing agencies, yes.

Are those 500 units in Tallaght by any chance?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

They are.

In the central square area.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

Obviously, they will help considerably towards addressing this dreadful problem.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Absolutely.

Are additional units available?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have about 16,000 units in our portfolio. As units become free, and if they are not taken up by the private market, we offer them to the Housing Agency but, unfortunately, that is becoming less frequent now because there is such a demand from the private market for free units, very few units are becoming available. However, we are committed to building 4,500 units between now and 2016. Obviously, some of those units would deliver a Part V commitment. Currently, Part V is-----

NAMA will drive the building programme on those units.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

That is interesting. I presume they are in the areas of high demand.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Absolutely. Most of them are in areas of high demand.

I would be happy if some of them were going for private housing as well because-----

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Absolutely.

-----there is need on every front.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The most surprising thing over the past two or three years, as the Deputy would know, is the huge change in the profile of people requiring housing. Traditionally, it was a certain sector and now it appears to have spread further up along the demographic profile. The approved housing bodies, from our discussions with them, are seeing more of that and they like to do a mix of the demographic profile they put into any particular area.

I would appreciate it if Mr. McDonagh could send me a note on the situation in the Dublin area.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We will arrange that for the Deputy.

When these housing units become available, to what extent are they completed or are some in a semi-completed state and have to be completed? Does NAMA take charge of that?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. As soon as the approved housing body agrees to sign the lease with us, we will commit the funding for the final 20% to complete the construction of those units. Many of the units will have shell and core. It would be a matter of internal fit-out such as kitchens, bathrooms or whatever. That is usually three or four months work, which is good for people with those trades. Usually, that is the timeframe one is talking about. Some might require more extensive work but the majority would be three to four months work.

I would appreciate it if Mr. McDonagh could send me a note because being a politician, inevitably, everything is localised, particularly for the Dublin Mid-West and Dublin South-West constituencies because-----

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We will come back to the Deputy on that.

I thank Mr. McDonagh.

Can I get clarification from Mr. McDonagh on the €11 million cost to NAMA about which he spoke earlier where three individuals were on €200,000, and I think he said the average was €70,000. Is there a list available of those who are on €200,000? I do not want the names but the structure in terms of three being on €100,000, two on €50,000 or whatever it might be. Is that list in the report?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have given that information before as part of parliamentary questions.

The up-to-date list.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I can give the Chairman the up-to-date position now if he wants it. It will only take two minutes.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Three people are on €200,000.

There are 15 people between €150,000 and €199,000 and 36 people between €100,000 and €149,000. There are 50 people in the band between €50,000 and €99,000 and 30 people within the band of between zero and €49,000. There are 134 individuals in total, which adds up to €10.9 million.

In respect of the expenses to which Mr. McDonagh made reference earlier and the settlement for €85,000, he mentioned two people who would travel from the United Kingdom or the United States to Ireland. What were the actual annual travelling expenses in respect of someone like that?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In respect of the person coming from the United States, NAMA typically has 11 scheduled normal board meetings per year. It also has some additional board meetings, perhaps in respect of its annual review of strategy or in the event of some additional meetings being held during the year. Typically, it was approximately €52,000 in 2012 for travel expenses from the United States.

How much from the United Kingdom?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

As for the United Kingdom, the board member only joined NAMA in 2013. I believe the expenses in that regard were approximately €6,300. Yes, it is outlined in page 124 of our annual report, which has just been published.

Is that because the expertise of that member is not available here or what is the reason?

Mr. Frank Daly

In respect of Stephen Seelig, who was the member from the United States, he had a background in the IMF and had some experience of the type of asset management issue with which we were dealing. He had run a bad bank previously, which was the rationale for his appointment. Oliver Ellingham it is the board member from the United Kingdom. When the liquidation of IBRC was announced and when it looked likely that a considerable amount of the IBRC portfolio could transfer to NAMA at a time when we had a vacancy on the board, it seemed appropriate to look to the then board of IBRC, particularly perhaps members who had joined more recently rather than those who were there in the long term, to ask someone to come onto the board of NAMA. That was the rationale for Oliver Ellingham's appointment.

However, both those individuals have wider experience that is quite relevant.

Their travel costs pertain to travel to Ireland and their accommodation when here.

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes.

That is covered in both of those figures.

Mr. Frank Daly

Yes.

On the reply given in respect of auctioneers' costs of €144 million, how sure is NAMA that the auctioneers it uses throughout the country are actually getting the best price for the property? While I do not suggest otherwise, I wish to ensure this is policed and that the best price is being achieved.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

To clarify, that €144 million is based on our current sales of €14.4 billion and is 1% on average. However, it also covers fees for loan sales brokers and many of those assets are sold overseas, as well as in Ireland, and so effectively, the €144 million is not limited to Ireland.

Then let us direct the question at those who are in Ireland.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The reality is that when a debtor or a receiver appoints a loan sales agent, the letter of engagement must include a duty of care to NAMA and as part of that duty of care, they obviously incur liability if they do not perform the function properly. We also get copied on the reporting on the activity in respect of the sale, on the number of viewings of the property, on what are all the bids and on who went into the first round and into the second round of the bids. We take a huge interest in this.

Does NAMA actually see the figures-----

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

----- in terms of those who make the bid?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes. Before we sign off on it. No one has a single sign-off for anything in NAMA and even with regard to stuff that comes as far as the chief executive, I do not have a single sign-off. A lot of these sales are approved by myself and by Mr. Hanna here, who is head of asset recovery, in a joint sign-off and part of the file that comes to us is evidence of open marketing.

Has NAMA ever come across a situation in which either an individual property or a bundle of properties was sold for less than what someone else might have paid for it?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have had instances in which bidders have bid for assets and when they were unsuccessful, having not put in the highest bid, after the bidding has closed they have offered a higher bid than what the process had given. We have had instances of this and have looked into them but in all those instances at which we have looked to date, we always have found that the process has been fair and that everyone understood the process. They had a timeline to submit a bid and if they did so along with the process and if they had the best bid and if they could complete, they got the asset.

It is clear from Mr. McDonagh's reply that NAMA has never sold a bundle of loans or an individual loan for anything less than the highest bid.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No. One could have an instance in which someone put in a higher bid but lacked the ability to complete or may not have evidence of funds.

I do not mean anything like that. They are all the reasons a bid did not succeed. However, the one that succeeded is the highest bid in all cases.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes, that could complete the transaction.

That is fine.

On Northern Ireland and the property sold recently by NAMA, what were the outstanding loans at the time of the sale of those proceeds?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The outstanding loans in par debt was approximately €5.7 billion.

Was that a loss or a gain for the taxpayer?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In respect of that particular portfolio, since we acquired the portfolio, asset values had fallen below what we paid the banks for it.

What does that mean for the taxpayer? Did NAMA achieve €5.7 billion?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No, the money lent originally to the Northern Ireland-based debtors by the banks was €5.7 billion. NAMA paid substantially less than that when we acquired the loans from the banks.

NAMA acquired them for less.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

What was that figure?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

NAMA probably paid the banks in the region of €2 billion for that portfolio.

For how much did NAMA then sell it?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It is speculated that we sold it for €1.6 billion.

As I do not believe speculation, for what did NAMA sell it?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In terms of a portfolio transaction, it was around that.

It sold for €1.6 billion.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

Why was that? What happened? Mr. McDonagh should explain it.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

A few things happened. In the meantime, we probably had collected approximately €200 million worth of income from that portfolio while the assets were there. In addition, the underlying asset values had fallen from the date of acquisition because the property market had declined further.

Mr. Ronnie Hanna

We sold about €100 million as well.

Sorry, what did NAMA do?

Mr. Ronnie Hanna

We sold approximately €100 million in value over the past four years before it was brought to market as a portfolio.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Consequently, the overall hit for us over that time was approximately €200 million.

That was €5.7 billion, reduced in respect of NAMA's purchase to €2 billion.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The banks lost €3.7 billion on it.

The banks lost €3.7 billion.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

On their lending, yes.

Then, in the course of NAMA's sale of the portfolio, there was a loss of €400 million.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No it was €200 million net because we sold some assets and took income in the meantime.

Mr. Frank Daly

That portfolio obviously had a very big Northern Ireland dimension to it, although there were assets in the United Kingdom and here in the Republic. But certainly, the Northern Ireland property market had been even more challenged than the market here in respect of deterioration in pricing and the value of assets. It was a very big loan sale for NAMA.

It was one that got an awful lot of attention at the board. I would have to say, in terms of the outcome, both in terms of the pricing and in terms of achieving that outcome in the sensitive situation where we were, in effect, selling off the portfolios of all our Northern Ireland debtors, from the board's point of view it was quite a satisfactory item. I suppose it was about 90% of it, one might say. What we have ended up with is that the Northern Ireland book is completely sold and the rest of our United Kingdom book is significantly de-risked by this sale, and indeed by another loan sale that has completed. Obviously, there are the financial considerations, but in that particular case there were other considerations as well.

It is also an indication of the scale of the problem, from boom to bust.

Mr. Frank Daly

It is - the big figure there.

It is stark.

Mr. Frank Daly

The big gap there is between the €5.7 billion and the €2 billion. It just gives one an indication of the scale. One can relate it back to the overall discount of 57% that NAMA applied right across its portfolio, but in that one, because of the challenged assets, in particular in Northern Ireland, one sees the scale.

In terms of the work on disposing of NAMA's loans between now and 2020, or whatever date it will be, has someone independently assessed that? NAMA has taken an in-house view as to how it will sell out these loans and roughly how long it will be. Has NAMA had it independently assessed by someone coming in from outside to look at all of this?

Mr. Frank Daly

We have, as part of the process of NAMA taking a view about what is the best way to deal with the rest of our portfolio from now on, and it would be feeding into the review by the Minister. We obviously did quite a bit of very detailed analysis internally, almost on a debtor or connection by connection basis, but we did want to make sure we had an internal view, so we engaged a company from the United Kingdom to have a look at this.

Who was that?

Mr. Frank Daly

UBS, to look at our figures and projections.

Were they satisfied?

Mr. Frank Daly

I would not say they totally agreed with NAMA's view, but by and large they agreed with it. All of that is being fed into the review process. I would have to say that, by and large, their conclusions would give us comfort about the approach we are taking.

Is that a confidential document?

Mr. Frank Daly

It is. It would be commercially sensitive, certainly.

NAMA creates additional securities around what it is doing when it is selling on the loans or when persons are dealing with it. Where there is substantial employment involved in some of the transactions, what consideration does NAMA give to all of that? What is NAMA's stated policy? Is there a policy written that anyone who is involved in that type of transaction understands where NAMA is and what it is trying to achieve so that he or she can look at a stated policy and then decide how best to engage with NAMA relative to the employees, etc.?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

First of all, they are not NAMA's employees. They are employed by debtors who have borrowed money from the banks.

I understand that.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

First of all, they are the debtors' or the debtors' companies' responsibilities. We are very conscious that we are supporting debtors who employee about 15,000 people in Ireland and, as part of any assets or loan portfolios we sell, the debtor, if he is working consensually with us, would understand that. He would sign up to that process. The likelihood is that the majority of employees, when portfolios are re-financed or sold on, are generally kept by the new buyer. That has been our experience to date.

Is there a policy set down to allow persons to inform themselves?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

No. In terms of keeping it informed, that is the responsibility of the debtor. He is the employer.

No, but for the debtor. I am not talking about the employer.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The debtor would understand the process all the way through. When he came into NAMA, he gave us a business plan. We would have discussed that business plan with him and we would have agreed an outcome, in terms of the business plan, as the assets would be realised over time. The debtor would be fully aware of that all the way along the process.

In consideration of that, does NAMA look at the employees, not that it has any obligation to them? Is there an effort made to ensure that whatever deal is done is one what will ensure the continuity of employment?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Most of the employees are tied up in relation to some trading businesses. There are very few trading business that came into NAMA. The other big employment is probably attached to shopping centres and hotels, and when those assets are sold, generally, whoever buys the assets usually keeps on the employees.

Mr. Frank Daly

I am not sure if I am perhaps misunderstanding the Chairman's question but we cannot really put conditions on somebody purchasing loans or assets from us in relation to what they do with either the assets or the employees. Obviously, if we begin to do that, certainly, they will lose interest in a lot of our portfolio.

I am not asking that.

Mr. Frank Daly

We are conscious. We had a discussion earlier about Elverys. That is a case in point where NAMA was very conscious of the impact of what might happen in that case.

That is my point. I am merely asking whether NAMA considers, in terms of the arrangement or the business plan that is being presented to it, that part of a social dividend - I know it is a commercial entity as well - is that a certain number of jobs are retained.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

It is sort of unfair to talk about an individual transaction but it was a transaction in the public domain. When the management buy-out team came and made the offer, and it had gone through an independent sales process where other people looked at it as well - as the Chairman stated, we have to be primarily commercial - the management team presented the best business plan in terms of retention of the employees.

In terms of those who would owe money to NAMA, where does NAMA come in the pecking order? Should anything happen, does NAMA come before the Revenue Commissioners and before the employees?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Who? The debtor, is it?

I refer to the fact that everyone has to pay Revenue, etc. Does NAMA come first and foremost?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We come first, like any other bank. If we have a mortgage over the property, then we are the secured creditor and we get paid first. Obviously, Revenue, in terms of a business, is a preferential creditor.

I asked previously about properties in NAMA's control or developers who are with it in Carlow. Does NAMA have properties listed and housing estates in Carlow?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

That are under receivership, is it?

I have an ongoing complaint whereby they say that the developer is with NAMA, the properties are in poor condition and the question is whether NAMA can ensure that something is done to bring them up to standard.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Where any Deputy or Member of the Oireachtas wants to contact NAMA, if it is a NAMA debtor, the experience has been, and I would hope it would be the experience of the Chairman, that if we have the details we will follow up on them and be able to see if we can resolve an issue if there is an issue there.

That is it from me.

I have just one quick question. Is the issue of determining the timeframe with NAMA the sole prerogative of the Government?

Mr. Frank Daly

What the Act says - I cannot quote it exactly - is that the Minister-----

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Section 227.

Mr. Frank Daly

Section 227, if Mr. McDonagh has it there, states that the Minister shall conduct a review of NAMA.

Which is under way.

Mr. Frank Daly

Which is under way.

It states:

(1) The Minister may at any time require NAMA to report to him or her regarding progress [...]"

(2) [...]

(3) As soon as may be after 31 December 2012, and every 5 years after that while NAMA continues in existence, the Minister–

(a) shall assess the extent to which NAMA has made progress [...]

(b) and shall decide whether the continuation of NAMA is necessary, having regard to the purposes of this Act.

It is the Minister’s decision but the Minister did indicate – I saw the transcript in the Dáil on Tuesday – he would bring this to the Government.

Am I correct in saying roughly €19 billion in loans remains?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes, at the end of 2013.

What is it currently?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

About €18 billion.

Of that €18 billion, how much is based in Ireland, the United Kingdom and the rest of the world?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The figure for the rest of the world is less than €2 billion. The figure for the United Kingdom is about €6 billion and that for Ireland is about €10 billion.

Does NAMA believe that if it went to the market in the morning and sold the assets pertaining to the United Kingdom and the rest of the world, it would realise the value of the loans, putting aside the fact that they have been discounted?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In regard to some of the assets, certainly in London, we are putting money in to build out a residential development. It may be considerably de-risked in 12 months’ time rather than today. Our advice from UBS Investment Bank is that we would suffer a discount for selling the assets at this stage. If we waited 12 months-----

In 12 months, NAMA would get out the other end.

Regarding the €10 billion in Irish assets, what is the breakdown for residential, commercial and development land?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Land and development make up about 30% of the portfolio.

That is €3 billion.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The rest is split. Less than 20% pertains to offices and the residential element is about 15%.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

Then, based on figures of €1.5 billion and €3 billion, the figure for the commercial element is roughly €6 billion.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Yes.

Taking the residential figure of €1.5 billion and the commercial figure of €6 billion, if the assets concerned were sold in the morning, where would they stand relative to the loan values on NAMA’s balance sheets? Would they wash their face?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We believe we would get those values back.

That leaves €3 billion in land and development loans. Where does NAMA stand on them?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The majority of the land and development land is in Dublin. Property prices are improving in Dublin but it is subject to getting the revised planning in respect of certain schemes. The current planning is probably unsustainable. Much of it might concern apartments. If one got planning permission for more own-door types of housing, of lower density, it would improve the value.

Is it fair to say that NAMA believes that within 12 months, it could get back the existing €18 billion in loans in terms of par value.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

If we continue to see a desire to invest the same amount of capital in Ireland and prices continue to improve, and if planning conditions are moved forward in regard to some of the lands, in respect of which we are working every day, we will certainly increase our chances of doing that.

Mr. Frank Daly

One would have to take account of the fact that the figure represents a very significant amount of property to put on the market in a very short period. At the same time, we are not the only players because there are other banks that are deleveraging fast. There would be a saturation effect that could certainly affect prices.

Does NAMA believe there is currently a property bubble in Dublin?

Mr. Frank Daly

Prices are certainly trending upwards in Dublin, both on the commercial side and the residential side. As to what one defines as a bubble, I am not sure. I do not know what the definition of it is. There are blips from time to time. The most recent quarter, in terms of the residential market, would have seen a slightly negative effect in Dublin.

We are hearing anecdotally and in other terms that rents have gone up from a typical value of €900 to €1,200 per unit per month. There is talk that couples are being offered 35-year mortgages. A set of parents told me recently that their son was gazumped on a property whose value had increased by perhaps €15,000 over the value settled upon. Bearing in mind NAMA’s function, there would be a temptation to wind it up pretty quickly because, as an entity, it could realise a return. Would doing so provide the best return on balance to the taxpayer?

Mr. Frank Daly

That is the key question that exercises us in NAMA and at the board. It concerns all the factors we have been talking about here. The other dimension is that there is very definitely a supply issue in Dublin. Perhaps the other aspect of NAMA that we would certainly draw attention to is the commitment of NAMA. To be specific, it is 4,500 houses over the next couple of years. In the longer term, it is a question of whether there is capacity in terms of sites to build another 19,000 or 20,000. There is a wider dimension to NAMA’s investment. We have approved €1.4 billion in investment for Ireland. As of yesterday, €1 billion has been drawn and it is at work. That is a fairly dramatic increase. There are many other things that NAMA is doing. There is the financial return but there are other aspects.

Has NAMA considered producing a residential development plan for Dublin? The issue in Dublin is clearly one of supply; there is a major supply issue. I am being told the land worth €3 billion is predominantly in Dublin. I was present when every line of the NAMA legislation was being passed. I realise, therefore, that NAMA was set up to have a number of functions. One was clearly to stabilise the finances. It was to have a strong social dimension. Obviously, there is a banking dimension also. Can NAMA now step into the breach and do something of a more significant nature to facilitate supply in the housing market in Dublin?

Mr. Frank Daly

I do not believe we can be the total solution, by any means.

I did not say that.

Mr. Frank Daly

However, we can be part of it. There are three areas that I would reference: the 4,500 units that represent a direct commitment over the next couple of years; the potential for 19,000 to 20,000 on-sites if planning issues and everything else are sorted; and the commitment to investment in the Docklands area. Since the SDZ approval last week, that gives us the go-ahead. We are really ready to go on that. That includes something like 2,800 residential units, on top of the 4,500. In that regard, there is certainly a role.

A more general point is that in any ongoing discussions at Government level on housing, construction or supply issues in Dublin, we are very much a part of the mix. We have no problem getting involved. As one of the Deputies said earlier, we are very much in that space now and have been put in that space. The potential elements are the 4,500 units, the potential 20,000, the 2,600 in the Docklands and, of course, the number of social housing units, to which we referred earlier. By the end of this year, the latter will amount to 1,100. By next year, it will amount to well over that.

When does NAMA envisage white smoke as to its future?

Mr. Frank Daly

The Minister has said that he intends to make his decision known before the summer recess.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I reflected very carefully on the rate of return issue over the period I was clearing the report. I stand over that recommendation. I want to make it clear that I am not suggesting what the rate should be. That is a matter for the board to determine. I do see it as a potentially useful reference benchmark which would help the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, ensure there is consistency in its decision-making about the timing of disposals or the value that can be achieved if it seeks to invest further to develop properties before disposal.

It is also interesting that the chief executive said in his opening statement that there is a prospect that NAMA could break even. That concept can be expressed as a rate of return. It would be useful for performance reporting purposes if a figure was put on it. Not only can one then determine the changing environment impacting on the prospects for NAMA, one can also assess the impact of what a change of strategy would be for rate of return.

The chief executive referred to the considerable effort it was to establish NAMA from a standing start and take on such an onerous challenge. We had a parallel process to meet the challenges that were there for us to audit NAMA and produce reports on it. I am very happy with the commitment and professionalism of the staff in my office in doing that. While we have had robust exchanges with NAMA from time to time, overall there has been co-operation, it has been a useful experience and exchanges have been carried out professionally on both sides.

What about the €1.6 billion in advances to NAMA in 2012? The Comptroller and Auditor General’s report states:

By the end of 2012, NAMA had directly advanced around €1 billion to debtors. It had also approved around €0.6 billion for retention by debtors but, because NAMA does not maintain a central record of actual retentions by debtors out of rental and other income, it was not possible to determine the extent to which debtors had used these approved advances.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I have already dealt with that issue. The Comptroller and Auditor General accepts we have it on an individual debtor level but we need to change our systems to consolidate all information. We are working on changing our systems.

There is a concern in the report that NAMA’s ambition and strategy for property disposal is unrealistic. If the Minister tells NAMA in several months' time to expedite NAMA’s operations with a view to an earlier wind-down, would that make these ambitions even more unrealistic?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

The Minister is charged under the Act with the discretion to tell NAMA what to do. When he does that, the board will examine his review and contextualise it as to whether it can be achieved. If it can, the board will set about doing so. If it cannot, then there would be no reticence on the board’s behalf to tell the Minister it cannot be achieved. In fairness to the Department and the Minister, they would not make a recommendation which would result in such a scenario.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Our scepticism around that mainly concerns the achievement of the volume of disposals at the prices that are included in the cash flow. It is not about whether it can be done but about whether it can be done at the price that one needs to deliver the cash flow.

Plus, that it is not making a loss for the taxpayer.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That is correct.

Is it agreed to dispose of Special Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) Progress Report 2010 – 2012, and NAMA’s annual report 2013? Agreed.

I thank the witnesses for attending.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 1.55 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 12 June 2014.
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