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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 12 Mar 2015

Revenue Commissioners Investigation of HSBC Offshore Accounts

Mr. Niall Cody (Chairman, Revenue Commissioners) called and examined.

I remind members, witnesses and those in the visitors gallery to please turn off their mobile phones because they interfere with the transmission and sound quality of the meeting.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members are reminded of the provision within Standing Order 163 that the committee should refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Niall Cody, chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, and Mr. Liam Gallagher, PAC liaison officer. I know that this is Mr. Cody's first time to attend the committee in his position as chairman of the Revenue Commissioners. I wish him well in his work.

Mr. Niall Cody

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to attend today's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts on Revenue's investigation of Irish-resident HSBC Swiss account holders. As we have sent a detailed report to the committee in response to questions raised in early February, I will not go into that level of detail. However, I would like to give an overview of Revenue's offshore investigations, of which the investigation into HSBC's Swiss account holders is part. I should state my obligation to uphold taxpayer confidentiality, as provided for in section 851A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997.

By way of context, it is important to be aware that, prior to receiving the information from the French tax administration, Revenue had identified the use of offshore accounts as a serious tax risk to the Exchequer. A dedicated branch, the offshore assets group, was set up in 2001 and its main purpose was to uncover and confront the use of offshore accounts by Irish resident individuals. To date, the offshore assets group has secured in excess of €1 billion for the Exchequer. From 2002 to 2012, we obtained 20 High Court orders against financial institutions in seeking details of transfers to and from offshore accounts in other jurisdictions. In 2009 specific orders were directed at transfers to and from Switzerland. In March 2010, when Revenue became aware that the French tax administration had come into possession of information on accounts held with HSBC Swiss, the then chairman immediately wrote to it, requesting data related to Irish residents. The French administration provided us with this information on 23 June 2010. The data contained information on accounts of individuals and corporates, with more than 98% of the total funds identified as being related to the funds industry. As set out in our report, the maximum value of assets in accounts of Irish individuals was $29 million, which at the time was equivalent to €22 million. A detailed breakdown of the cases involved is set out in the report.

Each individual and corporate listed was examined and 33 Revenue investigations were initiated following analysis of the data. Four cases were selected for investigation with a view to criminal prosecution and three cases were successfully prosecuted with one still under way. Of the 33 investigations, 27 have been completed with the remainder ongoing. Settlements were made in 19 investigations and €4.6 million was recovered, over 60% of which relates to interest and penalties.

In conclusion, I am satisfied that Revenue fully investigated the data received from the French tax administration. I can assure the committee that all of the account details provided were risk assessed by the offshore assets group with a view to investigation to recover any tax due together with interest and penalties. Suitable cases were also prosecuted.

Revenue has a considerable track record in tackling serious tax evasion. Since 1998 we have conducted a series of special investigations which yielded in excess of €2.7 billion in tax, interest and penalties. Our approach to tackling offshore tax evasion has been adopted by the OECD as best practice and has been adopted by other tax authorities. Practical measures are now under way at OECD and EU level to further improve the exchange of information between tax administrations and thereby limit the opportunity to avail of bank secrecy to facilitate tax evasion. I will be glad to provide any clarification on the details set out in the report, subject to taxpayer confidentiality.

Thank you, Mr. Cody. Can we publish your statement?

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes.

Thank you.

I welcome the witnesses here this morning and thank them for attending. I congratulate Mr. Cody on his new appointment and wish him well.

As regards the 19 accounts that were investigated, Mr. Cody said 60% of that revenue, of the €4 million that was recovered, was to do with interest and penalties. Do I take it that the other 40% was due to tax evasion, where money was actually not returned here for taxes - as in profits on which the tax was not paid?

Mr. Niall Cody

When I talk about 60% of the settlement being interest and penalties, the 40% then represents the tax. In any settlement, if it is deliberate default or gross carelessness there are tax, interest and penalties. There are not always penalties charged as part of a tax settlement, it depends on the nature of the default.

Whether it was a disclosure or not.

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes.

I am more interested in the 40%. Was that income tax, VAT or corporation tax?

Mr. Niall Cody

Mostly it was income tax. There would have been some VAT. On some of the settlements, it was just the non-declaration of the interest and there were no underlying tax issues.

Can Mr. Cody clarify what he means by no underlying tax issues?

Mr. Niall Cody

There was no underlying tax evasion.

So the money was returned here for those who had to return it, Irish-resident people had paid their taxes on it.

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes, in some of the cases.

And were there many that had?

Mr. Niall Cody

As I have said, I am slightly constrained in that there are relatively small numbers. The information is in the possession of the international consortium of investigative journalists, ICIJ, and of newspapers so I have to be very careful. What we have set out in our report is that there were 19 settlements. Nine of them were published in the quarterly defaulters list. To be published in the quarterly defaulters list, there has to be tax, interest and penalties, and the penalty has to be in excess of 15% of the tax liability. All those nine cases would have met the criteria for publication, so there would be underlying tax default issues in those nine settlements.

Out of the total number, 88 individuals and 270 corporate entities, based on what we have investigated at the moment, we are down to nine cases in which there was real tax evasion.

Mr. Niall Cody

No. There were 19 settlements, and nine of the settlements would have qualified for publication under the publication criteria. Some of the others would have involved underlying tax issues, but were under the publication limit of €32,000.

Am I correct in saying that the majority of those reported pertain to the funds industry and everything was normal?

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely. We have set it out on page 8 of our report, where we talk about the corporates. The disk we received from the French tax administration was complicated. It was an extract of records held by HSBC which fell into the hands of the French tax administration in a convoluted way. When the French sent us the disk, they sent us a kind of index on how we could interpret the data. It included two amounts from November 2005 and 2006, and a maximum value in the period of the 18 months or so. There was $6.2 billion linked to the corporates, and of that, $2.6 billion was linked to funds administered from Ireland and $3.7 billion was linked to administrators based in Ireland, accountants or solicitors, to do with the funds industry. In excess of 98% and closer to 99% of the total money that was on the disk was related to the global funds industry and had practically no relationship to Ireland or Irish taxpayers.

For clarification, it was all completely above board and there was no issue with it.

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely.

There were also negative balances, as I understand. There were 176 corporate accounts that had a maximum value of assets during the period of minus $95.89 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes, there was one very big negative amount for one entity that had no connection with Ireland, which slightly distorted the overall figure. The total figure is negative of 109 million. The actual negative on the individual case was in excess of 120 million.

There were 20 individual cases considered for prosecution, with four selected for further investigation. Does four out of a total of 20 cases seem low? Why only four? What were the outcomes of the other 16 cases?

Mr. Niall Cody

At the time when we got the disk, we had the 20 cases. When we consider a case for investigation with a view to criminal prosecution, it does not mean that if we decide not to follow the prosecution - we actually would investigate all the cases. It is the difference between investigating with a view to criminal prosecution and investigating with a view to settlement. The 20 cases were all investigated but at the time of the disk, the head of the offshore assets group would have profiled the cases and then referred them to our prosecutions branch to see if there was likely to be sufficient evidence to support a criminal prosecution. There are criteria under which we judge whether we have a likelihood of sustaining a criminal prosecution in a given case. We identified four cases where we thought we had a fair chance of getting evidence and following through on a criminal prosecution. The other 16 cases would have then been taken for investigation with a view to settlement and some of them had no tax issues at all.

From my experience with them, the Revenue Commissioners generally do a very good job. Our job as a public accounts committee is to make sure there is no loss of revenue to the State. From the work Mr. Collins has done to date, is he happy and confident in his role that everything that needs to be done has been done in this case, and that there is nothing out there that has not been looked at that would yield revenue for the State?

Mr. Niall Cody

If it would help the committee, I have thought about this question. After I was appointed to my position, the following Monday week The Irish Times covered the story and the ICIJ had a fairly high-profile, really interesting story. I was given responsibility as accounting officer for Revenue at the start of January and was appointed chairman on 1 February.

Since my appointment I have carried out a restructuring of responsibilities at senior level within the organisation. This restructuring included a realignment of responsibility for Revenue's investigation and prosecution division. When the story broke I asked the newly appointed head of IPD, the investigation and prosecution division, to lead a team to review our handling of the data contained on the HSBC disk and to evaluate the investigation that had been carried out. This team re-examined the data on the disk to evaluate the investigation and the conduct of the investigation that had been carried out. This review found that a robust approach had been followed. I wish to add that I have been in Revenue all my life - at least it seems like all my life - but I was very confident that a rigorous approach had been taken to the data. This was based on Revenue's track records since 1998 in dealing with special investigations, and in particular, on the records of the offshore assets group and such investigations. The principal officer and his team take their work seriously and the data sources regarding offshore accounts are their bread and butter. They actively seek out new sources of data regarding offshore accounts as evidenced by the number of High Court orders they have successfully sought over the years.

The principal officer in charge of the unit told me a little story about Swiss accounts. Back in 2009 when we looked for High Court orders directing Irish financial institutions to provide details of transfers to and from Swiss bank accounts, he prepared an affidavit in which he actually incorporated an advertisement that was placed by a Swiss bank in The Irish Times, in the midst of our pursuit of offshore accounts. This was an expensive advertisement in which the bank was saying, more or less, "Do you want to lodge your money offshore with us?". The bank's advertisement did not mention tax evasion nor any kind of hint that there was anything untoward about it but emphasised the bank's secrecy in Switzerland. While we were in the midst of pursuing accounts in the Isle of Man and Jersey, one of the Swiss banks - not HSBC - was advertising in one of our newspapers the advantages of bank secrecy in Switzerland. We included that advertisement in our affidavit for the High Court order which we were granted.

When the story broke that the French tax administration had got access to this data, my predecessor immediately wrote to it. We reported on this in our 2010 annual report and in the 2012 meeting of the PAC, the then Chairman had a short discussion about the HSBC disk with the members. I think it was Deputy Murphy at the time. We are very anxious to get these stories of our activities out there because this is what helps voluntary compliance. Knowing the principal officer and the team in charge of these offshore assets I know that they take their work seriously. Last week, the Sunday Business Post had an article which stated that a person getting a letter from Revenue will look at the top of the envelope to see if it has come from a tax district or if it is the case that it has come from the investigations and prosecution division, that person will get professional and legal advice. That is the first step that one of the practitioners was recommending a person should do. The people who are dealing with this are serious about what they do, they are good at what they do and I was fairly confident that they would have followed it through to the end. I am satisfied but that is not to say that there are not cases currently involved in tax evasion using offshore accounts. I refer to the work that is happening at OECD level, with the IRS in the US and the Foreign Account Tax Compliant Act, FATCA, and bank secrecy. Bank secrecy hinders our work. We are an early adopter of FATCA. We are very proactive at OECD and EU level in regard to automatic exchange of information. The work of our offshore assets unit has been the model for most other countries. We are early movers in this area and countries have followed us.

In preparing for today's meeting I have been reading PAC reports going back over the time of three chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners. The previous three chairmen have attended this committee and have spoken about our special investigations-----

Mr. Cody must be an insomniac.

Mr. Niall Cody

I have developed insomnia traits over the past week.

I thank Mr. Cody and Mr. Gallagher.

I welcome Mr. Cody and I congratulate him on his appointment. It seems to me that what he has done since 2010 has been a reasonably good effort at recovering what has been revealed to Revenue. Was Mr. Cody aware of any of this before 2010? I note that in 2009 he made an effort to get court orders about money in Swiss banks. How aware was he of this problem pre the release from the French authorities of this information?

Mr. Niall Cody

I would say we were aware of this problem as long as Swiss banking and bank secrecy has been there. We started following offshore money really since the DIRT inquiry which revealed the bogus non-residence accounts. The bogus non-residence process showed offshore bank accounts that were really not offshore at all and that led into a whole raft of investigations. We set out in the appendix to the report the various different investigations, some of which were onshore and some of which were offshore. The other issue is the EU savings directive. We have been actively involved in discussions at EU level which have been in train since the 1990s. Some member states have been more reluctant to sign up to the savings directive. During our Presidency we were on the point of getting the savings directive finalised with the final two member states. The EU Commission on behalf of the Council has been negotiating agreements with Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Andorra.

Prior to 2009 when Revenue looked for those orders, how much money was recovered from people who were indulging themselves in tax evasion in Swiss banks?

Mr. Niall Cody

I would not have that figure with me. When we were doing our offshore investigations we would have tried to get access to flows of money through the banking system from Ireland to offshore. We would have begun by focusing on the Isle of Man and Jersey. However, in the context of the data we would have received we would follow the money. If we came across access to money being transferred into Switzerland, we would have followed that.

Mr. Cody knows that there are buzz words such as "secrecy", which was used in the advertisement to which he alluded, and Swiss bank secrecy in particular.

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely.

The advertisement is really saying in code, "Come and bury your money with us".

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes.

We all knew about the Swiss bank secrecy and we all knew that this was happening. What was Revenue doing before that? How much money has been lost to the Irish Revenue because Revenue was not particularly active in that particular area? It is clear that Revenue got great results from Jersey, the Isle of Man and other tax havens, which is what they are. It appears that with regard to Switzerland nothing very much happened before 2009 from Ireland's point of view. Is that correct?

Mr. Niall Cody

In 2004 we had our settlement opportunity. That raised approximately €520 million. It was an opportunity for taxpayers who had offshore money, including in Switzerland, to make a disclosure to us and they then benefited from the reduced penalty regime.

If people had money in Switzerland before 2004 and did not avail of the opportunity, they do not get the benefit of voluntary disclosure when we come across it.

Did the Swiss banks co-operate with Revenue?

Mr. Niall Cody

No, absolutely not.

In no way at all. They are not part of any of this.

Mr. Niall Cody

Not only did they not co-operate with us but they could not do so under Swiss law.

They are not allowed to do so. Did they reply to Revenue's letters? Did Revenue write to them?

Mr. Niall Cody

We put in our report that not only did the Swiss banks not co-operate, but when we asked the Swiss authorities for corroborating evidence they politely declined.

Did Revenue get a reply?

Mr. Niall Cody

It is the legal system in Switzerland. While the Deputy and I might know somebody has money in a secret account in Switzerland, the banks will not tell us and neither will the Swiss authorities.

So the year 2010 was the big breakthrough, when Revenue got the information.

Mr. Niall Cody

In 2009 we received information on the movement of money through the Irish banking system to Switzerland and Liechtenstein. When the French tax administration came across the disk it gave us access to information on money which ended up in HSBC Switzerland which did not go through the Irish banking system.

From where did the money that ended up in HSBC in Switzerland come?

Mr. Niall Cody

Most of it came from the funds industry and there was no tax evasion.

I am talking about the money involved in tax evasion.

Mr. Niall Cody

Generally money in tax evasion comes from business people who decide to siphon off some of their profits, and there are various ways of doing this.

I know there are confidentiality issues but there are many cases. What route was taken by the typical person who wanted to bury money in Switzerland? What did these people do? Whom did they telephone?

Mr. Niall Cody

Generally they have not told us. The cases I am more comfortable discussing are the three cases which were prosecuted. The criminal prosecutions are a matter of public record. In those cases money was lodged offshore in other havens. In criminal investigations we must get approval from the courts for search warrants to search businesses and sometimes private residences. In these cases we came across evidence of the movement of money. The example I can give is not exactly accurate because-----

Just give an example.

Mr. Niall Cody

For example, movement from the Isle of Man to Switzerland was involved.

Did any money move from Ireland to Switzerland? Mr. Cody has many cases. There are 360 cases.

Mr. Niall Cody

It did not in these cases because we came across them in the 2009 operation. Most of the money here does not involve tax evasion.

I am only talking about tax evasion.

Mr. Niall Cody

A small number of cases is involved. As I said in my opening statement, a total of $29 million was linked to Irish individuals, which is €22 million. At least half of this had nothing to do with tax evasion. HSBC Switzerland was not a destination of choice for Irish tax evaders.

Did they have it offshore already?

Mr. Niall Cody

Some of the people had business interests in the country. Going back to the bogus non-resident accounts, originally the Isle of Man had the same level of secrecy and confidentiality, as did the Channel Islands. There were probably far more people involved because of language issues and ease of access.

Was money transferred from Irish banks directly or did it all go from-----

Mr. Niall Cody

In these cases-----

No, I do not mean in those cases. In any cases where tax evasion was suspected was money transferred directly or did it go through a circuitous route?

Mr. Niall Cody

There was movement of money through the Irish banking system-----

To Switzerland.

Mr. Niall Cody

-----sometimes through branches of Irish banks outside the State. This is where our High Court orders were focused. We challenged the courts. We did not get this information lightly or easily. We had to go to the High Court and we were fought in a number of cases. Our High Court orders were challenged as was our jurisdictional territoriality. It is not an easy process; we do not just say we are interested in tax evaders coming clean.

Can Mr. Cody say that no money under suspicion of tax evasion was moved from Irish banks in the Republic to HSBC in Switzerland? Can he say that never happened?

Mr. Niall Cody

With regard to the information on the disk we have no evidence it happened.

It was all offshore already.

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes.

That is a very interesting point. France, Belgium and Argentina have charged HSBC-----

Mr. Niall Cody

None of them have charged it.

I read that in the newspapers so it is probably wrong.

I ask members to keep their mobile phones away from the microphones on the desks because they are interfering with the transmission.

Mr. Niall Cody

We have to look at the different legal systems. From my reading of the newspapers, Belgium has asked investigating magistrates to pursue an investigation of HSBC but this is a big step away from criminal prosecution or a charge. I read in a newspaper about countries which have successfully prosecuted tax evaders for HSBC, but from my knowledge two countries have successfully prosecuted cases for HSBC-linked tax evasion, which are the UK with one and Ireland with three.

Ireland has not pursued it for criminal activity.

Mr. Niall Cody

HSBC?

Mr. Niall Cody

No, we have not. When I was appointed I wondered whether we could and I have sought legal advice in the past month.

From whom did Mr. Cody get this advice?

Mr. Niall Cody

I am not prepared to say, mostly because I do not have the name of the senior counsel. Normally when we receive legal advice we do not share the name of the person from whom we got it.

How does Revenue decide from whom it gets legal advice?

Mr. Niall Cody

It is done through Revenue's solicitor's office. We regularly receive legal advice on criminal prosecutions and tax. It is part of our core business. Approximately 215 cases are going through a process of consideration for prosecution at present. We are active in this area. The summary of the legal advice is that theoretically it may be possible but practically it would be almost impossible. Prior to coming here I was thinking about what legislation would be used to prosecute. The legislation speaks about aiding and abetting tax evasion. I have a note on the relevant section somewhere. This would not come under aiding and abetting. It is very difficult to deal with the operation of a secret bank account in a country where bank secrecy is a norm and the legal standard aided a taxpayer filling out a false tax return.

The primary offence is the taxpayer's. The secondary is aiding and abetting. One has to have the bank with the bank's fingerprints in relation to the tax evasion, and then one has to get evidence to corroborate that.

I have been reading the Argentinian details. The members of the committee know this, as well as I do. HSBC was in front of the PAC in London on Monday. Apparently the Argentinian authorities were there. Reading the coverage of the Argentinian matter, they seem to be very concerned about the flow of money from HSBC Argentina to HSBC Switzerland. They are talking about repatriating the funds. It is a very different thing from tax evasion.

This is very important and it is very important for the Revenue Commissioners. The Revenue Commissioners do not seem to like prosecuting people very much and their record of prosecuting on these issues is sparse to say the least. As Mr. Cody knows, nobody was prosecuted under Ansbacher. We have been through that before with the Revenue Commissioners. On bogus non-resident accounts, I do not know if any action was ever taken against any institutions. It appears that the small man got it in the neck. On HSBC, there is a very small number - I think we are talking about four prosecutions. Is the Revenue Commissioners' legal advice that it is harder to do it in this country than, for example, in the UK?

Mr. Niall Cody

I think our record on criminal prosecution, if one takes the HSBC example, the UK has had one criminal prosecution-----

I know, but it has investigated 1,000.

Mr. Niall Cody

They had 3,000 individual account holders.

It has investigated 1,000 out of 3,600. Is that not right?

Mr. Niall Cody

How many individual account holders did we have?

Mr. Niall Cody

We had 88, which-----

That is individuals. What about corporates?

Mr. Niall Cody

It is 270 maximum and practically none of those was linked to Ireland. I was reading a really interesting article about comparing the UK experience and the Irish experience. It was the direct opposite. The argument was why did the UK not investigate the same level of cases as Ireland did. On the HSBC data, we actually have probably the best record for following through on these particular data because we were ahead of them and also under our disclosure regime, anybody who had a Swiss account before 2002 could not avail of a voluntary disclosure. In the UK system, they can still avail of a voluntary disclosure.

I accept that. The Revenue Commissioners have recovered €4.5 million.

Mr. Niall Cody

It is €4.6 million.

It is €4.6 million here and Spain has recovered €220 million.

Mr. Niall Cody

I think one has to look at the scale of the numbers and the money in the accounts. We had individuals with €22 million at 2007 values linked to HSBC Switzerland. We collected €4.6 million. There will be some additional moneys. Back in 2012, my predecessor said we were looking at a figure of something in the region of a few million out of this. The Spanish had 3,000 account holders involved in what they said was tax evasion. We did not have anything like that in this area.

I accept that. That is fair enough.

I wish to ask about dissolved corporates. The Revenue Commissioners kind of eliminated them. Why? Could they not have owed quite a lot of money? They could have been tax evaders.

Mr. Niall Cody

There is no doubt some of them could have been. However, all of them had been dissolved before 2005 and a lot of them had been dissolved in the 1990s. We profiled them all and we looked for links to Irish individuals - directors. The reality is that most of them were Irish-registered and non-resident. We are familiar with what was in place up until the 1990s. There was a facility where one could be Irish-registered and non-resident with no link to the country.

I actually discussed this with the principal officer who leads the offshore assets group. He looked for a link to Ireland in these dissolved companies. When he could not find them, he would have had to go to the High Court to get the company reinstated, but he would not have anybody to deal with. As he said to me, he could have written to somebody in Kazakhstan to see if he could get it, but it would have been a complete waste of our scarce resources in tackling this.

The amount of money in relation to that was actually quite small. However, to the extent that there are nuggets or gems that are linked to tax evasion in those corporate areas, since 2010 when we got this disk, we have some new technology which my predecessor talked about - technology that we have to link entities. I have asked the investigation and prosecution team to put all these corporates back into our social network analysis tool and to see if we can get linkages because if there are linkages to tax evasion that we can trace here, the normal four-year limit does not apply and we will still look at.

The term "non-residents with Irish addresses" confuses me. They have been eliminated. How can someone be a non-resident with an Irish address and then be eliminated from the Revenue Commissioners' inquiries?

Mr. Niall Cody

Some of them had-----

Could they be bogus non-resident accounts?

Mr. Niall Cody

No. I looked at some of these as well because we were looking at the same risk indicators. Some of them have holiday homes in Ireland. Some of them had a correspondence address in Ireland. A lot of these accounts had multiple addresses. What the French administration did was that if there was an Irish address linked to an account - there could have been two other addresses, a UK address or a Switzerland address - they gave us all the information which had a link. There were clearly non-resident people with no real Irish connection. We are not talking about the people who are usually talked about when we are talking about non-residents in this list.

We are talking about people who basically had two addresses. If they had a holiday home, they gave both addresses.

Mr. Niall Cody

Both addresses were on it.

However, they were domiciled elsewhere for tax purposes.

Mr. Niall Cody

In the UK, for example. One of the cases was a French national who worked for a short time in Ireland but worked in France. He was subject to PAYE when he was here in respect of his Irish income. There is no issue.

That is fine. I might come back later, but I will just finish now. Is there any way that the funds industry could facilitate tax evasion?

Mr. Niall Cody

The funds industry is a core component element of the Irish financial services sector. From a tax perspective, it is constructed in a way to minimise any opportunity for tax evasion. We are quite satisfied that it is a legitimate part of the Irish system. We monitor the low number of Irish investors in the funds industry. While it is in the funds industry, it does not attract tax, which happens when it is taken out of it and there are special rules in relation to that. There are 13,000 jobs involved in the funds sector. It is legally constructed - the tax system - to minimise the exposure to opportunities for tax evasion.

It is very wide, involving stocks and shares, and all sorts of unit trusts and investment trusts. Presumably people could launder money through it if they were ingenious enough. I know all sorts of precautions are taken. Is it not possible that it could be-----

Mr. Niall Cody

I would-----

Do the Revenue Commissioners investigate the funds industry?

Mr. Niall Cody

We are responsible in relation to the tax issues. We are not responsible for regulating the funds industry.

I know, but does the Revenue Commissioners investigate the funds industry actively?

Mr. Niall Cody

"Investigate" is a loaded word in the context of tax. We ensure and monitor compliance.

Is Mr. Cody happy that it is compliant?

Mr. Niall Cody

I am happy we have a programme in place.

Is Mr. Cody happy there is no tax evasion going through the funds industry?

Mr. Niall Cody

I am not going to say I am happy that there is no tax evasion. I am a taxman and I work on the basis that I will always wonder if there is tax non-compliance.

Have there been any cases of it?

Mr. Niall Cody

No. What we have had is the normal compliance regime in relation to the funds industry. We monitor it and it is low risk by design. The tax treatment is such that it is a low risk area for Irish tax.

Mr. Gallagher is very welcome. I welcome Mr. Cody in particular and congratulate him on his appointment. I will continue on with the corporate sector for a moment. Much of that sector has been ruled out for one reason or another and it is an enormous amount of money at €6.3 billion. I refer to global financial services companies and a number of corporate records which show that companies were dissolved. Can Mr. Cody give the committee an idea of those companies which were dissolved? What percentage would have been Irish or have had an Irish address?

Mr. Niall Cody

They all had Irish addresses as they would not be on the disk unless there was an Irish address somewhere. Many of the Irish addresses were care of A, B, or C where A, B and C were leading firms of solicitors and accountants in Ireland. They were addresses for correspondence where the firms could have been providing accountancy or administration services.

Why would such a large number of them have been dissolved in a particular period of time? The years were 1993 and 2000 but there is no evidence of other companies being dissolved later. Why was it the case here?

Mr. Niall Cody

The rules for Irish-registered non-resident companies changed. There was a system in place where there were Irish-registered companies. The legislation was changed in the Finance Act 1999 to provide that if a company was Irish registered after that year, even where it had no connection to Ireland, it would become tax resident here. The system was closed down because there were reputational risks and suggestions that some of these entities were linked to criminality although not in Ireland. The system was closed down and the companies were dissolved. A significant number of Irish-registered companies did not file with the Companies Registration Office, which carried out a major clean up around the turn of 1999 to 2000. That removed tens of thousands of cases. We are talking here about 139.

That is approximately 50% of all cases.

Mr. Niall Cody

Where tens of thousands were dissolved from the CRO, this is a really small picture.

What happened to those cases then? After they were dissolved, where did they go?

Mr. Niall Cody

They stayed where they were. I do not want to keep mentioning Kazakhstan but they were not Irish. They had no Irish connection. There were no Irish directors and no Irish entity. The Companies Registration Office dissolved them and they ceased to exist in Ireland.

Does Mr. Cody have any idea in those tens of thousands of cases whether they slipped off to another jurisdiction?

Mr. Niall Cody

They belonged in other jurisdictions, which is to say their own jurisdictions.

Was it just Kazakhstan or did Mr. Cody mention that country in passing?

Mr. Niall Cody

It was not just Kazakhstan.

Can Mr. Cody give the committee an idea of what jurisdictions were involved?

Mr. Niall Cody

It could have been anywhere including the USA, UK and countries in eastern Europe. Russia figured at the time in some of the discussions around the matter. I just remember this from the time. People spoke about Russian entities using Irish limited liability as a badge of respectability, which is probably a safe way to put it.

Was there a suspicion at the time that quite a number of them were dodgy operations?

Mr. Niall Cody

That is why the law was changed. It was to ensure that the Irish flag could not be linked to a corporate entity that had no physical presence here. One of the things to mention about the corporates is that 270 are linked to this disk, 185 of which had no entries on either of the three dates that we are talking about. They had no balance in December 2005, no balance in December 2006 and no maximum value over that whole period of 2005 to 2006. They were dormant accounts. The disk was in essence an extract of the bank's customer service record and as such was a whole pile of data. If the bank had an entity at some stage, the record was still there. It was not as if the dormant ones were cancelled off the customer record. Some of the cases were dissolved 20 years before the disk came into our possession.

Were any of those accounts routed through the Irish financial services area?

Mr. Niall Cody

As I said to Deputy Ross earlier, what we had done in 2009 was try to get access to moneys being moved through the Irish banking system to Switzerland or received from Switzerland. This disk seems to include people who lodged money directly or offshore which was transferred to HSB Swiss. These cases do not have that footprint of moving from an Irish bank into HSB Swiss.

Regarding the disk the Revenue received from the French authorities, did the latter compile that disk or was it the raw information? Did the French authorities have a particular disk per se or did they cut and paste material for Ireland?

Mr. Niall Cody

There are serious taxpayer confidentiality issues and there are also international tax agreement confidentiality reasons here. Under our double taxation agreement, to discuss in any detail what we got from the French and the correspondence we had with the French, I should get permission from the French authorities before I share any information.

But what is in the public domain-----

Mr. Niall Cody

Whether it is in the public domain, we are constrained under our agreement with the French authorities. I will say that the French were hugely co-operative. The French made it known that they had this disk and once we asked for it, they were hugely co-operative. My understanding relates to any Administration that asked the French for the extracts. They could only give us what they thought was linked to Irish taxpayers. It would have been illegal to give us what was not linked. They had a very comprehensive disk and obviously cut out what they thought was linked to Ireland and gave us that.

It has been reported that part of the reason the Swiss authorities will not co-operate is because they perceive these data as having been stolen and therefore, they are entitled to not co-operate with anybody who is in possession of those data and have refused to co-operate.

Mr. Niall Cody

Again, this is all in the public domain. It is clear that this possession came from a former employee of HSBC Switzerland. It is in the public domain that HSBC complained to the Swiss authorities, who sought to have the person extradited, I presume that is the term, from France and Switzerland. Instead, the French authorities decided it was a really interesting disk and gave it to the tax administration to follow up because obviously, the data included a significant number of French taxpayers who were account holders.

Consequently, there is no sense in members writing to HSBC Geneva to ask its representatives to come over here and report back.

Mr. Niall Cody

What I probably would say is "good luck to you".

The position regarding Argentina seems to be completely different from the position in Ireland. While it seems to be existing offshore accounts here, in Argentina they were looking for repatriation of money that came directly from the HSBC branches in Argentina. This committee has been in communication with HSBC here in Dublin and it has indicated it is unable to help the committee. Is the Chairman of the view that none of the funds would have come through the local branch here in Ireland?

Mr. Niall Cody

We have no evidence that money flowed from HSBC Dublin into HSBC Private Bank (Suisse). If one looks at the coverage, some of the HSBC explanation and rationale is that the bank took over a Swiss private bank in the late 1990s and HSBC see it as a different type of entity with a different culture. I am not here to defend HSBC London but its view is that the bank took over a Swiss private bank and claims that the standards that obtained in Switzerland were not the standards the bank upholds.

From a tax administration point of view, what is really interesting is that the focus on the facilitation of bank secrecy, in terms of the story and the coverage of it, has helped improve transparency. The Swiss authorities have signed up for the OECD common reporting standard, CRS, which is the next generation of exchange information about bank secrecy. Were Revenue to appear before this committee ten years ago and were members to ask Frank Daly, as it was at the time, whether he expected the Swiss would sign up to exchange information about bank secrecy, he would have said this would be a really big challenge. We now are looking at that opportunity. This raises something about which my board colleagues and I must think, namely, when the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, FATCA, agreement dealing with exchange of information between the US Internal Revenue Service, IRS, and Revenue comes into place, followed by the CRS with effect from 2017, to which more than 90 countries have signed up for the automatic exchange of banking information. There are people who unquestionably have money offshore that involves tax evasion and that is an absolute fact. Consequently, we must consider how we can leverage international developments to ensure that we get our money. If there are people who opened bank accounts offshore since 2002, my advice to them is they should be making voluntary disclosures before we find out further about it.

Before it happens.

Mr. Niall Cody

On the whole whistleblower process, I would say some people are very uncomfortable right now. I would be delighted if they came to make voluntary disclosures, because we have limited resources and so we must target them where best we can.

That would be a good message to call out. Does the Chairman think the headquarters in London can help us? Does he think it would be a suitable request for representatives of the HSBC headquarters in London to come before this committee and that they would have the relevant information on the lines of the hearings in the United Kingdom?

Mr. Niall Cody

Clearly, the headquarters of HSBC are in the United Kingdom. Having watched HSBC representatives being cross-examined by the United Kingdom's Public Accounts Committee and Treasury Committee, the bank has appeared twice already and I imagine the committees are not finished with it, I do not know whether they would add particularly much if they talked about what happened in respect of Irish individuals. As I stated earlier, we can clearly see that HSBC Switzerland was not a destination of choice for Irish offshore tax evaders.

They had other options, which quite clearly, Revenue has been successful in pursuing.

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes, there is a small Irish footprint. One interesting thing about some of the coverage of what happened in respect of United Kingdom clients is that the Swiss entity was far more proactive, in that its representatives visited high-wealth individuals who had money in London. They visited them in London in respect of savings directive issues. The reality is the type of money that was involved in the Irish cases was not massive and I doubt it was hugely on the radar of HSBC Private Bank (Suisse).

Revenue has been successful in securing approximately €2.75 billion through the offshore accounts unit with regard to 35,000 or 36,000 Irish account holders over the past 14 or 15 years, which is highly impressive. Clearly, HSBC Geneva was a small player in that respect. How can a bank of that nature still secure a licence to operate if Revenue already has prosecuted some people in respect of tax evasion and it is quite clear that the secrecy surrounding the operation was to facilitate tax evasion?

Mr. Niall Cody

One must look at the rules in the countries in which the entity is based. Bank secrecy is the central part of the whole banking area and there is nothing wrong with bank secrecy itself. It is like taxpayer confidentiality. If one had one's money lodged in an account in Ireland, that would be kept confidential. In itself, confidentiality is a cornerstone of the banking system. The issue here is that at the time about which we are talking, tax evasion was not a criminal offence in Switzerland.

However, the Chairman already has mentioned how it was in one of the newspapers that, during all of this hullabaloo, the Swiss bank actually was advertising and emphasising the importance of secrecy.

Mr. Niall Cody

And confidentiality, yes.

People were able to read between the lines as to what it was all about. It is not just simple confidentiality.

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes, but within the legal system in Switzerland, it would be an offence for the bank to breach the confidentiality. That is the system in Switzerland.

No, my point really was to ask how come that bank still can retain its licence if this country, Argentina, Belgium, France, the United Kingdom and so many other jurisdictions find clearly that what has been going on in this particular bank has been pretty rotten and corrupt in respect of facilitating tax evasion.

Mr. Niall Cody

I am not in a position to provide an opinion on how a bank would be licensed in another jurisdiction.

So there is no way to deal with a matter of that nature, despite the fact that a section of the bank involved is operating in our jurisdiction.

Mr. Niall Cody

From a tax administration point of view and in the context of what is happening internationally on the tax front, huge steps are being taken to improve transparency between tax administrations in respect of banking.

I appreciate that. However, we are discussing an institution that has been found to be totally wanting in terms of proper practice and procedures and to have abused the system. Is there no way for the authorities in Ireland, Argentina, Belgium, France or elsewhere to state that they would like to oppose a licence being granted to such an operation?

Mr. Niall Cody

What has happened in the context of banking is that there has been a major tightening up of anti-money laundering procedures and banks are expected to know their customers. HSBC has stated-----

Is there an answer to my question? Is it the case that there is no mechanism in place? I accept what Mr. Cody is saying about good practices-----

Mr. Niall Cody

I do not have an answer to the Deputy's question.

And Mr. Cody cannot point us in any direction in that regard.

Mr. Niall Cody

The Revenue Commissioners are not responsible for the regulation of the financial services or banking sectors.

I thank Mr. Cody.

I thank Mr. Gallagher and Mr. Cody for coming before us. I congratulate Mr. Cody on his appointment. I found his testimony extremely interesting and I thank him for it. I appreciate that Mr. Cody may feel he is unable to answer some of the questions I wish to ask and I will understand if that is the case. If a person is a tax defaulter or if he or she has evaded tax, does Revenue continually monitor his or her behaviour in order to ensure he or she is tax compliant?

Mr. Niall Cody

Again, on various occasions when we have come before the committee we have referred to our risk-analysis system. We have quite sophisticated technology at our disposal and we have access to a huge level of third-party data sources. My predecessors also referred to our REAP system when they came before the committee. We continually risk-rate our cases and one of the clear indicators of risk is previous behaviour. Built into our risk-analysis system are the results of previous investigations and audits and details of prior non-compliance. It is one of the factors - it is not the only one - and we would continually monitor the same cases. Obviously, there are individuals who have engaged in tax evasion and whose activities we have not yet uncovered. Constant risk analysis and risk assessment in respect of our entire case database are key to our overall compliance programme. Previous behaviour is one of the factors involved.

We also have a dedicated re-audit programme. When I used to perform audits in the 1980s and 1990s, one of the issues about which we were always concerned was that once we secured an audit yield in respect of a case and once our work was done, the business involved immediately tried to recover that yield. As a result, built into our system is a programme of constant monitoring and re-auditing. Unfortunately, the re-auditing function shows that, on occasion, those who previously engaged in tax evasion and who made settlements reoffend. In the context of our code of practice, the penalties we imposed are stepped up in respect of those who are discovered to have deliberately defaulted on a second occasion. In other words, the consequences are more serious.

Does Revenue have the ability to observe the transfer of money out of the country? I presume transfers of this nature would be a possible indicator of someone trying to evade tax. Does Revenue have the ability to follow the money in order to determine what is happening or is the level of secrecy within the banks such that it cannot do so?

Mr. Niall Cody

One of the biggest changes in recent years relates to the introduction of suspicious transaction reports. This brings me back to anti-money laundering procedures and the necessity for banks to know their customers. Irish banks, other financial institutions and professionals are legally obliged to make reports in respect of what they perceive to be suspicious transactions. If someone comes in with a bundle of cash and if he or she does not fit into the profile, then the bank, other financial institution or professional involved is obliged to inform us and the Garda. We receive thousands of reports from financial institutions.

Has that been the case since the DIRT inquiry?

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely.

So it is one of the long-term benefits which stemmed from that inquiry.

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes, it is linked to the DIRT inquiry but it is also connected to the drive to combat money laundering and criminality. Tax evasion is not always the primary motivator and some of it just relates to criminality. There is an obligation on financial institutions to report any suspicions they may harbour. If we receive a suspicious transaction report, we are tightly constrained in terms of what we can do. We cannot inform anyone that we received such a report but we can use it in our risk analysis in order to determine whether there is a possibility of tax evasion.

On foot of Mr. Cody's answers to the questions posed by Deputy Costello, I would like to know whether it is the case that a greater level of compliance and co-operation was expected from the Swiss authorities.

Mr. Niall Cody

In the context of our double taxation agreement, since January 2014 the Swiss authorities co-operate with us on request. If we have evidence that, for example, Liam Gallagher has money in a bank in Switzerland, we can contact the Swiss authorities and they will supply us with information relating to his account. However, we cannot ask them to give us details in respect of all Irish citizens who hold accounts in Swiss banks. We cannot fish for details. When we requested information in respect of the 2005 and 2006 accounts, the Swiss authorities could not provide it. Since January 2014, however, if we suspect that someone with money in an account in Switzerland is evading tax, we have an agreement with the Swiss authorities to the effect-----

So if Revenue has a suspicion about a particular individual, it can-----

Mr. Niall Cody

It must be more than a suspicion. We need to know that the individual involved has an account in a particular bank and then the Swiss authorities can give us the details relating to that.

So Revenue cannot ask for the Swiss authorities to check whether I have an account in a Swiss bank in which I am hiding money. I do not have such an account, by the way.

Mr. Niall Cody

No. As a result of the fact that Switzerland has signed up to the common reporting standard, from 2018 the authorities there will automatically provide us with details of Irish citizens who have accounts in Swiss banks.

That will be very useful. Mr. Cody has already answered my next question to some extent. Will he indicate, however, whether there is a case in favour of the EU putting in place huge trade embargos in respect of tax havens such as Switzerland, the Cayman Islands, the Isle of Man and so forth?

In regard to some of the tax havens, whether Switzerland, the Cayman Islands or the Isle of Man, is there a need for that sort pressure to be applied to those places?

Mr. Niall Cody

Since the 1990s a considerable amount of work has been done on the EU savings directive. The directive has evolved and developed. During our Presidency, two member states had a difficulty with automatic exchange of information under the directive. Their problems were primarily linked to the fact that their neighbours were exempt from it. These problems have now been solved and Europe is agreeing an arrangement with Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Andorra and San Marino to increase the exchange of information. The game changer is the common reporting standard, which is driven at OECD level. The Swiss have signed up to that and it is now coming. This is a major development in terms of shining the light on transparency and the flow of money.

Would it be helpful if there was a financial transaction tax on the flow of money from one jurisdiction to another?

Mr. Niall Cody

The financial transaction tax is a completely different issue. It is a policy issue. The actual exchange of information is what we need to see. The financial transaction tax is not driven by the need to sort out the exchange of information and bank secrecy. I do not have a view on it.

In regard to corporate bodies, are we losing out because of some of their practices in terms of tax evasion or avoidance?

Mr. Niall Cody

I do not know whether we are straying into base erosion and profit shifting, or international tax or global tax policy.

I appreciate that it is a question that Mr. Cody may not be able to answer, but there appears to be considerable concern about this issue globally. It is not just an Irish question.

Mr. Niall Cody

The base erosion and profit shifting, BEPS, project that is taking place at OECD level involves a multinational tax issue relating to the interaction of rules in various jurisdictions and the exploitation of mismatches between rules. The Minister for Finance set out a roadmap for Ireland's international tax strategy in his Budget Statement. We are full participants in the BEPS project. The Revenue Commissioners has a team actively working on BEPS issues, which can only be solved by revising the rules. The reality is that in a globally trading environment there will always be mismatches, and the system will just keep evolving.

If one goes back to the time of Christ, Zacchaeus and other tax collectors were hated, but we need to revise our opinion of tax collectors. They are doing vital work for this State.

Mr. Niall Cody

I will not go into the Bible, but St. Matthew was a tax collector. He is our patron saint.

I welcome Mr. Cody and congratulate him on his appointment. He stated that between 2002 and 2012 the Revenue Commissioners obtained 20 High Court orders against financial institutions. Did these orders lead to any prosecutions?

Mr. Niall Cody

I do not have the details with me, but yes, absolutely. In 2004 we offered a settlement opportunity for offshore accounts. People were given an opportunity to put their hands up and do a deal. Approximately half of the €1 billion that the offshore assets group secured came from that process. The High Court orders gave us targets we could follow up. Some of them were investigated with a view to prosecution, but I do not have figures on them.

In the course of the investigation through the High Court orders, did the Revenue Commissioners find any pattern to suggest that Irish financial institutions were facilitating or encouraging this sort of behaviour?

Mr. Niall Cody

One would not find any evidence of facilitating that behaviour, but if a bank operates a money transfer system that allows people to move money, some would argue that that is facilitation. We operate in a global environment, however. Many people who hold bank accounts offshore are also doing business offshore. They may be paying suppliers offshore. The international banking system is part of the lifeblood of the economy.

With 20 High Court orders between 2002 and 2012, I presume there were some prosecutions. Was there any suggestion that the financial institutions were deserving of criminal investigation?

Mr. Niall Cody

No. Again, it comes back to the question of what offence is involved.

Was there any suggestion of facilitation of tax evasion on the part of banks?

Mr. Niall Cody

There was no evidence to support that.

Is that something that the Revenue Commissioners keeps under observation?

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely, yes. We are interested in seeing patterns and trends, and if we can identify an intermediary that is facilitating people in hiding money, we would be anxious to examine the business in which it is engaged and the identity of its clients. It is another risk indicator.

In answer to a previous question, Mr. Cody mentioned that some of the bodies corporate that had been dissolved had addresses at the offices of solicitors and accountants. As part of his investigation, has he undertaken discovery in those offices to see whether they have any other hidey holes?

Mr. Niall Cody

No. It is a standard and perfectly legal service that accountancy and solicitors firms provide. There is no suggestion that having the administration address for some of the-----

I am not suggesting it, but regarding the dissolved entities here-----

Mr. Niall Cody

It was a particular opportunity that was available with regard to company formation - an Irish-registered non-resident company - and was perfectly legal and legitimate.

I am not suggesting there was anything illegal about it. Has the Revenue Commissioners delved into such companies to see if there is anything else relating to offshore accounts?

Mr. Niall Cody

Based on the risk profile of the cases we are examining with regard to Irish-registered non-resident companies, there is no suggestion of tax risk, so there would be no reason to follow it through.

In Mr. Cody’s statement, he said of the 33 cases, 27 had been completed. Had any of the 27 previously registered on his radar for any sort of tax non-compliance?

Mr. Niall Cody

In our report we stated that five of the cases had availed of previous-----

Mr. Niall Cody

Some of the others may have had form without our knowledge.

In the context of the level of settlements involved, there was practically nothing in the HSBC-linked moneys. Settlements accounted for some of the €4.6 million. A number of them were not published because the amount involved was considerably less than €6,000. The ones that had previous form had practically no tax liabilities. It was more about unrecorded interest than underlying tax issues.

Mr. Cody made a comment earlier about branches of Irish banks overseas. How does the Revenue Commissioners reach into branches of Irish banks overseas?

Mr. Niall Cody

By way of High Court orders. At least one of the banks challenged such an order.

Mr. Niall Cody

National Irish Bank immediately comes to mind. We were successful in the courts.

Has examining the branch networks of Irish banks overseas, apart from the HSBC issue, led the Revenue Commissioners to commence other investigations? Does it have ongoing investigations?

Mr. Niall Cody

The appendix of the report gives a good picture of the investigations and shows that our special investigations secured €132 million in 2007 and €114 million in 2009, which was the last year in which the special investigations brought in more than €100 million. Last Tuesday we published our tax defaulters list, and two settlements on the list were linked to offshore assets. There is ongoing work, although it is not on the same scale as previously. In the mid to late 2000s, a significant proportion of our compliance resource across the country was tied up in special investigations. The investigations were not all handled by the investigations and prosecutions team. In recent years, the investigations and prosecutions division, IPD, has handled the special investigations. We must examine whether further opportunities are coming from this type of operation such that we can find another seam to mine.

On the overseas branch network of the Irish banks, has the Revenue Commissioners encountered any suggestion or evidence that the money trail starts in the branch network in this jurisdiction?

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely.

Have the banks been, or will they be, prosecuted?

Mr. Niall Cody

Transferring money offshore does not constitute proof. While it may enable the taxpayer to feel secure that the money will be hidden, there may be many reasons money is transferred offshore.

I am talking about the risk money, not legitimately earned money on which tax has been paid.

Mr. Niall Cody

People do not walk into their bank branch and announce that they have declined to declare a particular income source on their tax return and have a bundle of money they want to hide from the taxman. While we might think somebody is complicit, it is a huge step from there to having evidence that can sustain any type of prosecution. One of the very interesting aspects of the current HSBC development is that HSBC has said its systems were lax. Three weeks ago, HSBC placed advertisements in the British Sunday newspapers more or less apologising for its practices. This is a major development and I have never seen anything like it before.

Mr. Cody mentioned an advertisement in The Irish Times. Do the staff of the IPD make any attempt to portray themselves as unsuspecting Irish people who are looking to stash some hot money away? Do they approach banks to see how they will react, or do they always declare that they are from the Revenue Commissioners?

Mr. Niall Cody

I do not know whether anybody would give us money to purport to be tax evaders. The Comptroller and Auditor General would review what I did with all the money. It would raise issues of entrapment, and it is not exactly where the Government wants us to go.

I have no difficulty with how the Revenue Commissioners recoups the money, as long as it does it, and as long as it is legal.

Mr. Niall Cody

Exactly. I am open. Whistleblowers are often in the news. We welcome information on tax evasion. The Protected Disclosures Act has a specific rule to enable reporting to the Revenue Commissioners. Some of the good settlements and prosecutions we have made have come from people complaining about something, and our door is always open.

Mr. Cody said he got greater co-operation from the French authorities on the provision of the disk with information on it. Did the Revenue Commissioners have to give information about any French nationals to the French authorities? Are the French authorities undertaking similar investigations in Ireland?

Mr. Niall Cody

No, but because of our double taxation agreement with the French, on occasion the French - like other administrations, including the UK - write to us. There is a framework, which is legalistic, as international tax agreements tend to be. The Indian authorities recently raised a query about accounts in Ireland in which they were particularly interested as part of an investigation. Similarly, we ask our partner countries for details. There is a regime in place, signed off by a commissioner, and an authorised officer to ask the bank for details of accounts, bank statements and transactions. This is an ongoing part of the normal tax administration and co-operation across frontiers by tax authorities.

I thank the witnesses for coming here. The report refers to 114 individuals mentioned on the disk. It also states that a further 18 individuals are excluded from the inquiry on the basis that they are not resident in the State. Why would somebody give an address in Ireland, even care of a solicitor or accountant, if they were not resident here and had no business here?

Mr. Niall Cody

Some of them had. One of the cases I recall was of a French national who had worked for a while in Ireland and on the Continent. At some stage, as part of his correspondence address, the Irish address must have been in the bank data.

Mr. Niall Cody

Yes, if two or three addresses were linked with an individual, two of them could have been UK addresses and there could also have been an Irish address. On page 7 there are listed two categories, with 26 immediately apparent non-resident cases. They were primarily Northern Ireland addresses. From the French point of view, they look at Ireland and are not going to divide it. A total of 17 had an address in the Republic, but it was not the main address and they were properly non-resident or non-domiciled.

Where people could not be traced, was it that the address could not be traced in Ireland?

Mr. Niall Cody

There were five individuals with addresses that could not be traced and, in some of these cases, the buildings were no longer there. Some of the data date back to the early 1990s. The accounts were not closed but dormant. There could have been an address from 20 years ago, but there is no longer any such address.

That was very engaging. I thank the witnesses.

All of this information came about because of a whistleblower who had given it to the French tax authorities. Therefore, if the whistleblower had not done what he did, we would not have this information, as there was no way of getting it. The practice of facilitating these types of accounts would have continued and the reason it would have continued, apart from the whistleblower, is that Mr. Cody would have had no authority to question the bank or pursue it. It is protected by Swiss law in terms of confidentiality. Is that correct?

Mr. Niall Cody

As I said, things have developed since. The Chairman is correct that the way the information came into the hands of the French authorities is cloaked in secrecy, but ultimately-----

A person gave the French authorities the list.

Mr. Niall Cody

There are various stories, but one story in the public domain is that when the French went to arrest him, they came across the disk.

In his father's house.

Mr. Niall Cody

The French police authorities passed it on to the French tax authorities.

Has Mr. Cody since developed a working relationship with the authorities that allows him to get information for recent years, even where it was not disclosed?

Mr. Niall Cody

In the context of our double tax agreement with Switzerland, we have a facility to get access to individual accounts, but we must have knowledge of them.

Mr. Cody must have a name.

Mr. Niall Cody

Our 2009 High Court order was a method to get a name-----

The fact remains that, even with the tools the Revenue Commissioners have today to track down these accounts, they have not been able to do so.

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely.

Therefore, HSBC can claim it was the culture of a little bank in Switzerland that it took over. The advertisement in which it apologised was made after having been caught.

Mr. Niall Cody

The focus on HSBC Switzerland is probably a little misplaced. The Swiss banking system is based on confidentiality and the fact that traditionally people cannot access-----

I understand that, but I am trying to explore the matter. I know the job Mr. Cody and the Revenue Commissioners did and we know what was collected in taxes, penalties and interest, but the point remains that HSBC took over the bank and that, without the whistleblower, none of the money would have been collected. HSBC, having taken over the bank, was aware not only of the culture, as it has admitted, but also of the laws of confidentiality it could hide behind. What does Mr. Cody think of HSBC's statement that it is ambitious for business or looking to harness its global capabilities to seek companies' growth and explore the possibilities HSBC Ireland can offer? Is that one of the well crafted statements that helps it to dodge what is really going on?

Mr. Niall Cody

I hesitate to comment.

Mr. Cody referred to the advertisement.

Mr. Niall Cody

No, the advertisement was different and not from HSBC. It was not from an Irish entity but from a Swiss bank offering offshore accounts to Irish customers. I have no doubt that it was aimed at attracting money from people in whom we would have been interested and who would have had money elsewhere.

Does that type of statement on a website alarm Mr. Cody?

Mr. Niall Cody

Not particularly, because it is about global money and global funds.

Is that not what we are talking about? Somewhere on the globe there is a bank and funding ended up in these Swiss accounts. The bank which claims to be above reproach in this regard - perhaps it is - now apologises for a culture as if it has only discovered it. I find this amazing. This is not to do with the work of the Revenue Commissioners.

This emphasises the need to have a representative of HSBC here. It shows total disrespect to customers in this country and the 450 employees that HSBC representatives have not turned up here and, at least, issued a statement. I refer to what happened in the earlier part of the meeting when it was mentioned that we had decided to write to HSBC and that it had responded by suggesting it had no information to offer because it was part of the London branch. A representative of HSBC London is not available, but I do not know, as Deputy Joe Costello mentioned, whether this means a representative is not available permanently or not available right now. HSBC is headquartered in London. To go back to an earlier decision of the committee, we should act on it and write directly to HSBC headquarters to request the attendance at the committee of the individuals who attended the committee hearing in the United Kingdom. If for nothing else, the bank should do this out of respect for its customers in this country. This must be done and the request must be made to them. The invitation must be issued immediately to complete the circle.

I say that by way of comment following our earlier conversation, but I think it is clear from the very constructive exchange we had this morning. It gives us a deeper understanding of Revenue and it adds to our information. HSBC could have shared in all of this this morning and could have availed of the opportunity to do something positive in terms of its connection here in Ireland which is not by any means a small entity, given that it employs 450 people. I read in another part of its website that it is servicing $105 billion worth of assets under its management. Those are not small figures so far as this country is concerned. It is important that we act upon the invitation and insist that it comes before the committee. So far as what Mr. Cody has done to enlighten us in terms of the report, we appreciate it. We may look at the hearings in the UK and take some notes from what happened there, but I think HSBC has a case to answer in terms of its work in Ireland and what it did in Switzerland. It is up to this Committee of Public Accounts, now that this matter is before us, to ensure we conclude in a way that satisfies the taxpayer and the tax collector in this case.

With that I thank Mr. Niall Cody and Mr. Liam Gallagher for coming-----

I had my hand up to ask a question. I congratulate Mr. Niall Cody on his appointment and wish him well. In regard to the Chairman's point about inviting HSBC to appear before the committee, that is the right thing to do in regard to its obligation to the State and the fact that it is a big employer in this country and manages a huge portfolio of finances. Following Mr. Niall Cody's appointment, it appears he has carried out a very thorough investigation of this case. The Swiss banking culture would be recognised as a tax haven for facilitating private accounts from all over the world. Given that this five-year disk was brought into the public domain by a whistleblower, has there been an indication of any other disk since then?

Mr. Niall Cody

There are various rumours around about other employees or contractors of different financial institutions with data. We pay close attention to what is happening. We have very good relations with our fellow revenue authorities and we are always open to information coming to our attention. As I said, for people who have offshore moneys, they should be coming to us and disclosing it before we come to them.

Revenue has a number of disks that have been encrypted. Given the technology in place, the fact that the disk is from 2010, the convergence of banking in 2018 and the offshore facilitation by HSBC bank, in Mr. Cody's opinion did any information from the IFSC or any other banking fraternity units within the State indicate - while people cannot move their money offshore - that there could be any facilitation by the whole banking industry here of Swiss accounts?

Mr. Niall Cody

It is important to distinguish the funds industry from what we are dealing with here. The type of tax evasion that we are talking about is where taxpayers or businesses manage to siphon money out of their business and keep it off the radar. We put it in our report that there is something like €3.3 trillion linked to the Irish funds industry either in Irish managed funds or administered funds. It is a key core part of what used to be called the IFSC. It is a legitimate business and is a core part of our strategy. We have no evidence whatsoever that there is tax evasion or avoidance in that particular category.

Given the double taxation arrangement that is in place with Switzerland, has additional information been furnished since that has been signed?

Mr. Niall Cody

The reality is that the agreement with Switzerland is going to be a slow burner. It is in place since 1 January 2014 in respect of information after January 2014, so tax returns in respect of moneys in 2014 will not be due to be lodged until the end of this year at the earliest. In a way all this increased transparency and opportunity is just part of the toolkit we have.

Is it retrospective?

Mr. Niall Cody

Agreements like that are never retrospective.

It is just on the commencement notice. With regard to the other encrypted disks that might be available, have any of those come into Revenue's possession?

Mr. Niall Cody

No, this is the disk we have but if there are any other disks out there, Dublin Castle, Ireland-----

I thank Mr. Niall Cody and wish him well in his appointment.

Mr. Niall Cody

I thank the Deputy.

I have one last question. Mr. Cody and his partners co-operate together on these issues. Is there a separate case where collectively they look at whether a case should be taken against a bank in terms of breaking the law for one reason or another? Do Mr. Cody and his partners look at that as well? Mr. Cody may not be able to do it on his own but collectively with the other tax authorities they may be able to say they have information from which it appears that a law has been broken. Would they pursue this together in that event? Does that type of conversation take place? Is the relationship just on the basis of pursuing tax and the individuals?

Mr. Niall Cody

To take a prosecution against any entity in any country, one has to have an offence, something under which they can be charged under the law of the particular country.

The individual country and its law.

Mr. Niall Cody

There is not a multilateral world government, so to speak.

I thought it was in the tax arrangement that Revenue has with other countries that it would be able to look at various issues.

Mr. Niall Cody

We will certainly co-operate. We would share information on how to come up with best practice and share our knowledge of technology and how we can analyse it, but ultimately to prosecute somebody for a criminal offence, one has to have the law, the court and jurisdiction.

That is fine. Revenue has reshuffled the individual responsibilities within the organisation.

Has the reshuffle been extensive or confined to the heads of the different divisions?

Mr. Niall Cody

I mentioned in passing in the context of my appointment as chairman that we made changes. We did not restructure but are evolving our structure to tackle issues such as the increased focus on international taxation. There has been a partial restructuring at assistant secretary and divisional level with a reallocation at principal officer level, which is part of the ongoing evolution of the organisation.

Is that not similar to what Mr. Cody's brother, Brian does, in terms of bringing forward new talent and giving them the opportunity to display their skills in the game?

Mr. Niall Cody

Absolutely.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 26 March 2015.
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