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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 17 Nov 2016

Business of Committee

We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, as the permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. John Riordan, deputy director of audit. Are the minutes of 10 November agreed? Agreed. I propose we hold over the opening statement of Cerberus until we meet its representative in the afternoon.

The next item of correspondence in category B, that is, correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to meetings. Items 154 to 163B, inclusive, 171B and 186B, all refer to late accounts. I propose we note them for now and return to them when we discuss accounts and statements shortly.

Items 168B(i) and (ii) are correspondence from Mr. Niall Cody, Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, providing a response to a series of questions from the committee following our engagement with the Revenue Commissioners in October. It is a fairly extensive reply and I thank Mr. Cody for that. Is it agreed to note and publish it? Agreed.

Items 169B(i) and (ii) is an e-mail from Ms Michelle Lowe of NAMA attaching a copy of PIMCO's offer letter to NAMA in December 2013. I propose we note and publish that, and it will be added to our Project Eagle file. Items 173B(i) and (ii) is correspondence from Dublin City Council responding to the committee's letter of 26 September on the Dublin Docklands Development Authority and contracting of professional services. A copy of a response given at a Committee of Public Accounts meeting in the last Dáil is attached. Is it agreed to note and published? Agreed.

Item 175B is an e-mail also from Mr. Martin Whelan of NAMA informing the committee that it cannot release statements of interests made by members of the board, committees and senior members of staff in accordance with section 35 of the Ethics in Public Office Act. Is it agreed to note and publish that? Agreed. I have asked the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisor to prepare a note on this.

Our committee is agreed that, outside the meetings, the secretariat can seek additional information it knows is of interest to the members. We had written to NAMA seeking a copy of any declarations of interest board members or members of the Northern Ireland committee had published. They said that, under the legislation, the documents are confidential and not subject to the ethics legislation and not for publishing. However, I was in touch since then looking for any declaration of interest signed by any member at any Northern Ireland committee meetings or board meetings in connection with Project Eagle. I want to see copies because we have been told on several occasions that some members, especially those of the Northern Ireland committee, had signed a declaration of interest. Mr. Rowntree, when he was here, said he never saw them and that they were just handed to the Chairman. I checked the legislation this morning and noted it states they are to be made available to all board members at the meeting. It is not satisfactory for it to be handed only to the Chairman. That said, the minutes of the Northern Ireland committee record the items of disclosure but they have been redacted in the set of minutes given to us. If we are considering this matter, we want to see the declarations signed by the people at the meeting. We are quite specific on the fact that we should get that. We will make clear to NAMA precisely what we are looking for.

The next item of correspondence is an e-mail from Mr. Martin Whelan of NAMA attaching a response to the information requested on 3 November. We will note and publish that. Every week, we have a letter going to NAMA seeking additional information. The replies are coming back.

Items Nos. 177B(i) and 177B(ii) concern an e-mail from Mr. Brendan Smith of the accounts branch in the Department of Social Protection attaching a copy of the Social Welfare Appeals Office annual report for 2015, as requested at our meeting with it in October. Can we agree to note and publish that? Agreed. It is not the document I was looking for, however. The document we received yesterday is a summary of the activities of the Social Welfare Appeals Office detailing the categories of appeals it dealt with. I was looking for its annual financial statement, not a summary of its hearings and activities. We will be specific in seeking a copy of its financial statement. There is other outstanding information from the Department of Social Protection that we have not received yet. I would like to receive it within the next seven days because several weeks have elapsed since it was first requested.

Nos. 178B(i) and 178B(ii) refer to an e-mail from Mr. David Meisels, head of litigation at Fortress Investment Group, attaching a letter of response on the committee's areas of interest. It is not an extensive letter but I propose to read it into the record because Fortress was the underbidder. Cerberus was the successful bidder. Some time ago, in early November, in advance of a committee meeting I asked the secretariat to write to Fortress posing specific questions. We received a reply today but since our last meeting we have agreed to invite its representatives. We have not had a response on that yet. We wrote the letter to them because I wanted to get information flowing. I have the authority to invite representatives without clearance from the committee. We have since obtained it. We still hope the representatives will come. Although the letter received is short, it deals with a couple of specific issues. Since Fortress is a key player on this issue, having been the only underbidder at the end of the competition, we should read the short response. We will not have a big discussion on it.

I am not interested in doing so at all. I agree it is important to obtain clarification from the Controller and Auditor General on a number of items of correspondence we have got to determine whether the information is new to him. The Fortress letter states that the bid process requires an unconditional bid that "could not be syndicated or financed pre-bid".

Let me read the letter first and then we will discuss its content. The point the Deputy made is highly significant.

Perfect. Are we in public session?

We are in public session. We will discuss the logistics and activities of our meeting in private session. I want to read the letter into the public record. There are one or two fundamental issues in the letter and that is why I want it on the record. When I have done so, we will discuss it.

Could we also get clarification from the Comptroller and Auditor General as to whether he was aware, before the PIMCO letter emerged last week, that Tughans, Brown Rudnick and Frank Cushnahan approached PIMCO?

We will come back to the questions to the Comptroller and Auditor General shortly.

This is a letter from the New York office of Fortress Investment Group LLC, signed by Mr. David Meisels, managing director and head of litigation. It is dated 11 November and it was sent by e-mail to the clerk to the Committee of Public Accounts. It states:

Re: Special Report 94 National Asset Management Agency's Sale of Project Eagle

Dear Mr. Lenihan:

I write in response to your letter, dated November 3, 2016, to Mr. Randal Nardone of Fortress. Fortress appreciates the opportunity to address the Committee's requests for information, which are reproduced in bold below, followed by Fortress's response.

The first question I asked was how Fortress became aware of the sale of Project Eagle. The response is:

Fortress learned of the formal Project Eagle sale through press reports on or around February 13, 2014 that NAMA was seeking to complete a sale of the NAMA Northern Ireland loan portfolio to PIMCO.

The second question I asked was how Fortress became involved in the sale process. The response is:

After learning of the Project Eagle sale process through press reports (described above), on February 13, 2014, Michael George of Fortress reached out to Andrew McDowell, Economic Advisor to the Prime Minister, and Brendan McDonagh, Chief Executive Officer of NAMA, to express interest in participating in the sale process. Mr. McDowell put Mr. George in touch with Ronnie Hanna, head of credit at NAMA, and John Collison, head of residential delivery at NAMA, who informed Mr. George that Fortress would be invited to bid, and that NAMA had engaged Lazard to oversee the bidding process. On February 14, 2014, a Fortress representative spoke with Lazard regarding the bidding process.

The third question I asked was about the basis on which Fortress made its bid. This is the response:

Consistent with its general approach, Fortress reviewed and analyzed available information, assessed the value of the assets for sale and the circumstances of the sale transaction, and exercised its professional judgment in determining its bid, taking into account its perception of the potential risk of the transaction in relation to the potential reward. Fortress devoted substantial resources to this effort, which involved the deployment of a large team of its investment professionals, and the engagement of a number of external advisors at substantial expense to the firm, including legal counsel, property and asset advisors, and insurance and environmental consultants.

The fourth question I asked was about Fortress's rationale in making a bid below the reserve price. It responded:

As described above, Fortress formulated its bid on the basis of its professional judgment and its evaluation of the assets for sale and the circumstances of the transaction. Considerations taken into account by Fortress included the quality and completeness of the diligence information made available to Fortress; that the portfolio constituted a large exposure in a very small, concentrated region: and that the bid process required an unconditional bid which could not be syndicated or financed pre-bid.

My final question was whether there were any other matters that might be of interest to the committee regarding the sale of Project Eagle. The reply is:

Fortress is not aware of any additional information that may be of interest to the Committee at this time.

We hope the information provided above is of assistance to the Committee.

The letter is signed by Mr. David Meisels, managing director and head of litigation. Since we received this, we wrote to Fortress representatives, at the request of the committee, to invite them to appear before us.

Let me highlight the issue that has just been mentioned, namely, the condition of the bid such that it "could not be syndicated or financed pre-bid". That is a very important issue we will have to take up with NAMA. The number of people who could bid was made very limited. NAMA has said here a few times that it wanted people to bid who, in their own right, could write the cheque for the full amount and would not have to borrow or work with other people to put the funding together. NAMA has said that was in the interest of confidentiality but, clearly, normal purchases of this kind would have some groups of people financing them. The NAMA bid specifically excluded that. It made it much more difficult for people to make a bid in that the person coming to the table had to write the cheque without recourse to any bank. That is a very clear issue. Is my interpretation reasonable?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, I think that is correct.

We will not discuss this at length because if Fortress representatives are coming in, we will want to discuss it with them. More important, we will have discuss to it-----

With respect, it is important for us to establish whether the Comptroller and Auditor General now has new information that he did not have when he produced his report. He had access to lots of information we did not have.

I want to get clarification on a number of issues. Was the information new to him? The first element was that Fortress learned of the sale through the press. Was this new information for the Comptroller and Auditor General? The second element is that it had to be an unconditional bid and could not be syndicated or financed pre-bid because that would reduce its capacity to bid higher.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As far as we were aware, Fortress became aware of this because of press reports. In figure 4.6 we show how it came about that individual potential bidders came into the process. As a result of becoming aware of the process through the media, both Goldman Sachs and Fortress made approaches to NAMA or Lazard. We were aware of the cash-only bid. I think we referred to it in the report. I suppose the point is that none of the bidders were to be in a situation where a bank or funder would also have to get involved. It would introduce a conditionality on their bid if they required external borrowing. That is not to say that when the acquisition occurred, they used bank borrowing. As far as we were aware, that did happen with Cerberus but that was post-acquisition by then.

In terms of the Cerberus opening statement that the Comptroller and Auditor General would not be able to come back in later, it indicated that it made the unsolicited approach or, sorry, that-----

A gentleman is coming from the US to address the committee with an opening statement. If we have to let the Comptroller and Auditor General come back afterwards, we will do so. Out of courtesy to the person who is coming to assist the committee voluntarily, however, I want him to read his opening statement and I do not want any discussion until he is here this afternoon. I have no problem with the question but, out of courtesy, we should let him make the opening statement before we discuss it.

As Chairman, I can say that there are significant issues arising from the correspondence as we move along that we have not previously put to NAMA so when it is here next Thursday, in addition to responding to various remarks at various other meetings, there will be quite a number of new questions for it.

We will move on with the remainder of our correspondence. Category C is correspondence from or relating to private individuals and any other correspondence. Items 153 C(i) and (ii) concern an e-mail attaching a letter from Nursing Homes Ireland regarding the discrepancies in the fair deal fees paid to HSE nursing homes by comparison with their voluntary and private counterparts. I propose that we write to the HSE for a response in the first instance. However, the cost of nursing home care, the HSE, the private sector and how they interrelate, are certainly issues we will want to discuss as part of our work programme. We will certainly come back to that in our work programme for the new year.

I know we cannot cover everything in the work programme but that is a really critical issue in terms of the use of public resources and regulation generally and is certainly something I would be most keen for us to focus on. Notwithstanding all this work, I do not know if we would be in a position to start indicating when we might turn to an issue such as that.

I think-----

It is a critical issue.

I totally agree.

I think there is unanimous agreement on this. I propose that we have a discussion of our work programme for January, February and March in early December. We will not do it today or next week but I propose that at one of our private meetings in early December we prioritise our work programme for the areas we want to deal with early in the new year. It will be the new year before they come in.

I assume it would be overly ambitious to suggest that we could deal with that issue before Christmas.

Yes, I think it is. We will have a few meetings in December about our draft report. I think that it will take up our time.

In respect of the nursing homes and the fair deal scheme, could the Comptroller and Auditor General contextualise that issue within the work and audits he has carried out? I do not want to delay matters but I am trying to get a sense of how we would frame the discussion we need to have on this issue within the HSE audit.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is something I want to examine and potentially report on by way of a special report. It involves a processing in the HSE but there is also a collection of fair deal proceeds when the debts fall due, which is a Revenue Commissioners issue. The best way to examine it in detail and look at the process - the numbers coming in, the time involved in that and the collection process for proceeds - is by way of a special examination. I expect to start that towards the end of the year or in the first part of next year and to report on it next year.

In advance of that, we will have some information.

In respect of the letter we received from Mr Niall Cody, which I referred to in correspondence a few moments ago, 168B(ii), the last item we asked him about was the note on the nursing homes scheme and the collection of fees by the Revenue Commissioners. There is a specific note on that so members can see that this was already in the back of our heads all along. The HSE has published substantial documents on its website in recent weeks relating to the cost of every HSE institution where people are being cared for. Private nursing homes are providing information to us about what they are being paid by HSE. The point about whether it is the same service or a similar service is moot. There is quite a bit of information available to allow us to have a discussion early in the new year. That report will take a while. The Minister of Health will have three months to consider it and it will probably be after the summer before we see that report. We can have our discussion early on in the new year. I think there is unanimous agreement on that issue.

The next item is a letter from Deputy Niall Collins forwarding a copy of a letter from an individual about the Irish Greyhound Board and the Limerick Greyhound Racing Track. I propose we write to the Irish Greyhound Board for a response on the issues raised in the letter.

Item 165C is an e-mail from the Charities Regulator attaching a letter of response from Mr. Tom Malone, head of compliance, regarding a charity shop in Cork. Is that noted? Agreed.

Items 174C(i) and (iii) concern correspondence received from the HSE attaching a letter and a briefing note responding to a query from the committee regarding the National Ambulance Service. The matter in question is being dealt with internally as a protected disclosure and the investigation will be completed in November and findings relayed to the discloser. Can we agree to note that? Agreed.

Item 179C is correspondence received from an individual relating to the payments of Aosdána grants to an a specific artist. The clerk wrote to the Arts Council in respect of other correspondence on this topic from the same individual last week. I propose we note the correspondence and await a response. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Item 180C is an e-mail from NAMA attaching information relating to the sale of a specific office unit in Dublin. Attached is a copy of the letter from the individual raising the matter and our request for a response. We can note that. It is not directly connected with Project Eagle. It is a separate property query.

Item 187C is correspondence from Deputy Connolly attaching a copy of a letter from Cerberus to the former First Minister, Peter Robinson, and the former Minister of Finance and Personnel and current Economy Minister, Simon Hamilton. Is this noted? What one was that? Have we a copy of that? I presume we have all seen it. It says "Dear Minister". Was it addressed to the First Minister?

I cannot remember. I would need to check.

We will check that ourselves because it says "Dear Minister" and we do not know to which Minister it is addressed. I presume it is the First Minister. We do not know whether it was the deputy First Minister. We will enquire about that.

The next items are statements and accounts received since the previous meeting. Before we go to statements and accounts, I want to refer back to the number of correspondence items this week dealing with late accounts. Members will recall that the clerk undertook some weeks ago to write to the parent Departments of all bodies that laid accounts late, namely, more than three months after being certified by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I am referring to all the accounts we have seen since this committee has been in place. The requirements are stated in a circular from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and aim to ensure that in the normal course the accounts of bodies and funds under the aegis of Departments and offices are laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas within three months of the Comptroller and Auditor General issuing the audit certificate on the accounts. These requirements are also stated in the Comptroller and Auditor General's letter on completion of his audit. We decided at a previous meeting to compile a full list. We have a list. I will ask members to have a look at it and we will come back and discuss it in further detail in case there might be individual organisations about which members may have a query. We will discuss it at our next meeting.

The list is comprehensive and will be included in correspondence for the next meeting.

The next matter is reports, statements and accounts of bodies audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and received since our meeting of 10 November 2016. The list is short. The first matter is the Ireland-United States Commission for Educational Exchange, which received a clear audit report. The next matter is the Kerry Education and Training Board, which received a clear audit report, except that the report discloses that when the board took over responsibility for Tralee training centre in 2014 staff supporting the finance function of the centre did not transfer to the board. A significant knowledge gap relating to the accounting systems and processes in the training centre resulted in delays in extracting financial data required for the preparation of the statutory financial statement. I assume the Comptroller and Auditor General was able to complete the audit.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, the Kerry training board accounts relate to the 18-month period ending on 31 December 2014. The accounts that are in for the Laois-Offaly Education and Training Board are for 2015. That was the delay.

When will we receive the 2015 accounts for the Kerry Education and Training Board?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I am not sure when the audit is due to start. We may have carried it out but it is in the process. There is a delay.

The 2015 audit report for the Laois-Offaly Education and Training Board is clear.

The 2015 audit report of the Road Safety Authority is also clear. However, severance payments of €145,000 were made during 2015 and associated legal costs amounted to €66,400. The authority did not obtain sanction for these costs from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, as required. Audit testing also identified non-competitive procurement of goods and services in 2015 to the value of €700,000. The statement of internal financial controls sets out the steps being taken by the authority to address the matter. We will note this and if Deputies wish to take up the matter directly, they are free to do so. The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland received a clear audit report for 2015.

The next matter is the work programme, which has been circulated. In addition to our meeting this afternoon, we have a meeting with Lazard next Tuesday, followed by another meeting at 9 a.m. on Thursday with Mr. Frank Daly and Mr. Brendan McDonagh from the National Asset Management Agency. As the meeting on Thursday will take several hours, we will have one or two breaks. In fairness to NAMA, representatives of the agency appeared before the committee at the beginning of this process. Given that a great deal of information has come to light in the meantime, it is only right and proper that NAMA be given an opportunity to appear before the committee again as we reach the conclusion of our public hearings. If Deputies have questions or wish to elicit information that could be obtained by writing, they should circulate them to the clerk. We will continue to send NAMA a letter every week seeking further information.

We referred to a number of people we would like to have before the committee. I accept the Chairman's point that the hearings cannot go on forever. However, for the purposes of thoroughness, what is the position regarding Brown Rudnick and Mr. Tuvi Keinan? Has there been any word from them?

A letter was sent to Brown Rudnick and the gentleman to whom the Deputy referred. Letters were also sent directly to the home address of the former First Minister, Mr. Peter Robinson, and Fortress, asking them to appear before the committee.

What about Ronnie Hanna?

All those letters were sent more than one week ago and we have not yet received responses. We will have to wait until next week. If some of the individuals in question indicate a willingness to appear, we will certainly facilitate them. We must first await responses.

Has consideration been given to inviting Mr. Frank Cushnahan to appear before the committee?

Has he not been asked?

The legal advice to us was that we should stay away from that matter because of police investigations. I respect that position as something could be said at a meeting that could compromise an investigation or a defence. I do not want to go there, to be honest.

Deputy David Cullinane raised the possibility of bringing back the legal advisers to the National Asset Management Agency. That is Mr. Cox.

No, it is Mr. Stewart. Are there issues arising? We can ask the legal advisers to NAMA to make themselves available.

Many issues arise, for example, in respect of what happened on the famous telephone calls on which we have a direct conflict of evidence.

That is fine. It is agreed that we will put NAMA on notice to make the individuals in question available next Thursday when Mr. Daly and Mr. McDonagh appear. They are normally present in any case. We will ensure they are here as part of the NAMA team next Thursday. Is that adequate?

Yes, NAMA's head of legal should be here.

We will make sure the legal advisers are here next Thursday.

Is it intended to wind up our hearings next Thursday, apart from the two meetings scheduled in December to consider our report?

While next Thursday's meeting is the final scheduled public meeting, invitations have been extended to several other individuals and if they agree to appear before the committee, we will have to-----

The position could change, depending on the responses we receive.

Yes, we will have to wait and see. Next week's meeting may be the final meeting. However, depending on the responses we receive, there may one or two further meetings. As of now, next Thursday's meeting will be the final one but we must wait and see.

As there is no other business, we will suspend for a moment to allow the witnesses to take their seats.

Sitting suspended at 9.36 a.m. and resumed at 9.38 a.m.
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