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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 23 Nov 2023

Business of Committee

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes; accounts and financial statements; correspondence; work programme; and any other business.

The minutes of our meeting of 16 November 2023 have been circulated to members. Do any members wish to raise any matters? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's web page.

Moving on to accounts and financial statements, four sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas between 13 and 17 November 2023. I ask Mr. Seamus McCarthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General, to address these before we open the discussion up to the floor.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The first set of financial statements are those of University College Dublin for 2021-22. The financial statements received a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention to three matters. First, there was a material level of non-compliant procurement, as disclosed in the statement on financial control. That involved a total of €4 million. The second item, which I referred to in the previous session, is capital expenditure write-offs totalling €29.5 million as a result of the cancellation of two capital projects. The final matter, which, again, relates to something discussed this morning, is the university is making a provision for accrued employment benefit obligations of €2.1 million arising from previous non-compliance with employment legislation in respect of casual employees, which I think goes to some of the issues the Chair was discussing.

Second are the Private Security Authority's financial statements for 2022, which received a clear audit opinion. Third is the Heritage Fund's financial statements for 2022, which received a clear audit opinion. Fourth is Leopardstown Park Hospital Board - this is one of the section 38 hospitals - financial statements for 2022, which received a clear audit opinion.

The material level of non-compliance procurement at UCD was in the region €4 million in total.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, there was around €4 million in non-compliant procurement.

What did it relate to?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I do not have the detail of it and it is not actually given in detail in the financial statements.

I suggest that we-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was a total of 47 suppliers. That is all they disclosed.

Do any members wish to comment? No. I propose that we write to UCD regarding the non-compliant procurement and ask for details of what it pertains to. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Can we agree accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, we will publish the listing of accounts and financial statements as part of our minutes.

Moving on to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to the correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s web page. No items have been flagged today for consideration in public this week. However, I propose to deal with R2226C , R2237C, R2238C and R2239C in private session.

Moving on to the work programme, a draft work programme discussion document, which is now displayed on the screens, has been circulated to members. Next week, on 30 November, we meet with the Department of Finance to discuss the Department’s appropriation accounts and chapters 1, 2, 24 and 25 of the C and AG’s annual report.

On 7 December, we will meet with the Department of Health to examine the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 38 and the following specific areas of interest: establishment of the new regional health areas; budget controls and governance; budget outcomes; agency costs; and service level agreements with section 38 and section 39 organisations.

The committee's final hearing of the year will take place on 14 December, when we will meet with the Housing Agency and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in respect of chapter 11 on the utilisation of the land aggregation scheme, the Housing Agency’s 2021 financial statements and programme A of Vote 34 – Housing.

At last week’s meeting, it was agreed to schedule a meeting with the Department of Social Protection on 18 January in order to examine the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 37, the Social Insurance Fund, the relevant chapters from the C and AG’s annual report and the misclassification of workers. It was also agreed that we schedule a meeting with the Office of the Revenue Commissioners on 25 January, which is the following week, to examine the appropriation accounts for Vote 9, the relevant chapters from the C and AG’s annual report and the misclassification of workers. The reason we are arranging it that way, for the benefit of any members that were not here, is that because it is the same subject, we will try to do them one week after the other.

On the work programme, if members have any other issues they wish to add to the agenda for any of these meetings or any further meetings, please feel free to put them forward. As we are nearing the end of the year, I propose we have a discussion about the work programme for the new year at next week’s meeting. It is important that members give that some attention. If members have suggestions, I ask them to please forward them to the secretariat or bring them into next week’s meeting. Is everyone happy enough with the work programme? Is Deputy Burke happy enough with it?

Yes, absolutely.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There was a chapter in my annual report on Health Service Executive funding and financial reporting. It may be useful to schedule that when the Secretary General of the Department is in.

We can include it for this day two weeks. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of the work programme for today. Do any members wish to raise any matter in public session under any other business? I take it everyone is okay. We will go into private session briefly before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. next Thursday, 30 November, when we will engage with the Department of Finance.

The committee went into private session at 1.40 p.m. and resumed in public session at 2.27 p.m.

We will now resume in public session to discuss one more matter. Deputy O'Connor has raised an issue with the committee and we have discussed it privately. You can address it now in public Deputy.

Thank you Chairperson. I appreciate you allowing me to raise this matter with committee members and the clerk. I wish to raise an item of deep concern to the public accounts committee in relation to the ongoing financial and regulatory issues in the Football Association of Ireland. The information that has now entered the public domain has made clear that urgent questions regarding the memorandum of understanding between the Department of sport and the FAI require immediate scrutiny by the public accounts committee. Section 35 of the memorandum of understanding between the FAI and the Government states that the chief executive's salary is capped at that of Secretary General. It has now transpired that the current CEO was paid in excess of €280,000 in 2021 and 2022. As part of this analysis, the Covid resilience funding needs to be included in our examination. It is worth noting that over €60 million of Government funding was provided to the FAI in the last four years. Included in this is €33.7 million in Covid grant funding. I urgently request that the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media comes before the PAC and that the FAI be invited to attend along with officials from Sport Ireland and other relevant organisations.

As the C and AG will be in a position to report on the appropriation accounts for 2022 for the Department, I suggest that his office would be included in the invitation. Does anyone else wish to comment?

I agree with the proposal. As I said, I have a concern in respect of one aspect of the FAI which relates to it having possession of land which has being lying vacant for over ten years. Other organisations are not being allowed to use it even though it is urgently required in the growing urban area of Glanmire in Cork.

All of these issues, especially those raised by Deputy O'Connor, are of serious concern. The Department is providing funding but on the basis that it would be used effectively to deliver a service to members of the public. We need full accountability here.

I agree that it is a serious matter.

I agree with Deputy O'Connor's proposal to invite the FAI, the Department and Sport Ireland to a meeting. I am particularly interested in exploring the issue of the Covid resilience funding. There is very much a feeling at club level that this funding never filtered down. I would like to explore some of the details as to how the Department ensured that the Covid money was distributed. If the FAI could provide that information at the same meeting, that would be useful and important in the context of people's confidence in sport. Of particular concern are the issues relating to the CEO's salary. I say that not because we have all of the details on it but because this is not the FAI's first rodeo. The association has been here before. Any possibility that it was not abiding by the funding arrangements agreed with the Department is of significant concern and is all the more reason for intervening at a very early stage.

We have the Department of Social Protection and Revenue pencilled in for the first hearings in the new year. I suggest that we pencil in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media for an early hearing in the new year. It is important that we do that. Members will want to raise a number of issues with the Department, including the Covid resilience fund and the pay of senior staff in the FAI. I propose that we examine that and deal with it early in the new year. I thank Deputy O'Connor for his proposal.

At our next meeting we will have an important engagement with the Department of Finance and I know Members are looking forward to that.

The committee adjourned at 2.32 p.m. until 9.30 a.m on Thursday, 30 November 2023.
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