COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 8 Feb 2024

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business.

The first item is the minutes of our meeting of 1 February 2024, which have been circulated to Members. Do Members wish to raise any matters relating to the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee’s webpage.

Five sets of accounts and financial statements have been laid between 29 January and 2 February 2024. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to address them before opening the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The financial statements relate to education and training boards, four of which relate to the year of account 2022.

No. 1, Kilkenny and Carlow Education and Training Board for 2022, received a clear audit opinion.

No. 2, Louth and Meath Education and Training Board for 2022, received a clear audit opinion.

No. 3, Limerick and Clare Education and Training Board for 2022, received a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention to two matters. The first is a disclosure that there were payments totalling €20,645 to a business with which a staff member had a direct connection and which represented a conflict of interest. The second issue I drew attention to was non-compliance with procurement rules, which was to the value of €2.9 million worth of procurement.

No. 4, Tipperary Education and Training Board for 2022, received a clear audit opinion but I drew attention to non-compliance with procurement rules and in that case the value of the non-compliant procurement was €735,000.

No. 5 relates to the Kerry Education and Training Board but these are the 2021 financial statements and they received a clear audit opinion.

An Cathaoirleach

Do any members wish to come in on the accounts and financial statements?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The obvious one there is No. 3, Limerick and Clare Education and Training Board. That is obviously a conflict of interest. There was a previous case of another education and training board, ETB, which we are very well aware of, and it went beyond a conflict of interest. This is the kind of-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It was very significantly greater amounts involved in that case.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I would have thought this was something that ETBs were particularly conscious of in view of that example. Has this issue been addressed in the back and forth the Comptroller and Auditor General has with entities his office is auditing? What remedy have they put in place in that regard?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

They disclose that they have dealt with the finding and will no longer engage the services of the business in this case.

An Cathaoirleach

Do any other members wish to come in on that? No.

Is the listing of accounts and financial statements agreed? Agreed. These will be published as part of our minutes.

I will move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee on correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s webpage.

One item of correspondence has been flagged for discussion today and will be discussed in private so I will move on to the work programme if everyone is happy with that.

Members have been circulated with a draft work programme discussion document, which is displayed on screen now. Next week, on 15 February, we will meet with the Department of Justice regarding the 2022 appropriation accounts for Vote 21 – Prisons and Vote 24 – Justice. The resourcing of GSOC and the International Protection Office have been flagged as areas of interest for this meeting.

On 22 February, we will meet with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and with representatives from Sport Ireland, the FAI and the SFAI.

On 29 February, we will meet with Tusla regarding financial statements for 2022. Representatives of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth have also been invited to attend.

On 7 March, we will engage with Inland Fisheries Ireland on its financial statements for 2022. Representatives of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications have also been invited to attend. I recall that on the last occasion the IFI representatives were in before the committee was a morning and RTÉ were in before us in the afternoon. It was in the early days of RTÉ authority meetings last summer, so there is unfinished business there and we agreed to have IFI back again.

Following the March recess, we will meet with An Garda Síochána regarding the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 20 – An Garda Síochána. Representatives of the Department of Justice have also been invited to attend.

This programme brings us up to the Easter break. Considering the draft work programme in front of us, members may have issues of specific interest regarding any of those. This morning, we had GSOC representatives in and members may wish to raise any of those issues again with the Department of Justice next week but if there are any other issues for witnesses, I ask them to flag any areas of interest for these meetings.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We had a discussion on the International Protection Office. I may not have been paying the kind of attention I should have but I had understood the accommodation for the International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, and temporary protection was going to be a kind of parallel discussion with that. Is this included as an issue for discussion? It hardly is when Tusla representatives are in-----

An Cathaoirleach

That comes under the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. It would not be the Department of Justice.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

No. So we have not included that.

An Cathaoirleach

No.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

To be honest, it is about controls, how the process works, the amount of money, and the kinds of tenders that are being provided. I believe that several of us wanted to talk to the Department about this whole area.

An Cathaoirleach

Given what is happening, I suggest we bring in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth separately to address some of that. We have had the Secretary General of that Department, Mr. Kevin McCarthy, and his team in a couple of times. We need to bring them in again.

The Deputy's query is specific to the Department of Justice around how the International Protection Office is working and the systems around all of that matter. That is the issue. Trying to deal with it in the one day-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am not saying we would do it in one day but-----

An Cathaoirleach

It is two separate Departments. I suggest that we add them to the list.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

For whatever reason I thought that we had agreed to pretty much do that.

An Cathaoirleach

The other one we agreed to do is the University of Limerick. I ask that this would be added to the list. Some issues of interest relating to UL that are surfacing. We agreed last week to bring them in on that . We will add UL. We agreed on UL. Is it agreed that we would also add the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth for a further meeting? Yes. We could possibly schedule these for 11 April or 18 April. That would be UL and then the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Can we agree to leave it to the committee secretariat to see if they can be scheduled in for either of those two dates?

Deputy Colm Burke

I have a query on Horse Racing Ireland.

The witnesses were in previously. An issue arose the day before they came in. There is correspondence on it today. When are they likely to come back into us at this stage?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2022 financial statements for the Horse Racing Regulatory Board have not been signed off yet.

Deputy Colm Burke

Is there a particular reason they are not signed off?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is probably connected with the issue that arose. That would have had knock-on effects on the completion of the audit and the preparation of the final accounts.

Deputy Colm Burke

Are they likely to be signed off?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I have cleared them. I am waiting for matters to be finalised and for the accounts to be presented.

Deputy Colm Burke

Might it be within the next two months or so?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I hope so.

An Cathaoirleach

If the accounts are not cleared, then we cannot we bring them before us.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is probably more profitable to wait.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

In regard to our approach, we like to think of our outcome reports. There is a theme that could be built upon from a number of meetings we had with the Department of Justice, GSOC and An Garda Síochána that we could pull together in one report. We have not done a report for some time. In regard to turning our meetings into outcomes, for the secretariat, there is probably a grouping there that would be very natural. That is just something to think about.

An Cathaoirleach

It was the intention that there would be a crossover. There is a commonality between those three. We set them out before Christmas in that order. We hoped to have them one week after another. Actually, the initial proposal was to have GSOC in at the same time as An Garda Síochána, but that cannot happen for obvious reasons.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

If it was possible to bring An Garda Síochána in sooner that would be best, but that is set now so we will leave matters stand.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On reports, the reason we brought the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners before us was because there was an issue that was common ground. We wrote to the WRC, so obviously the response to that would be another component of a report. We do not want to make work for Sam but there are useful issues that could be included in such a report as well.

An Cathaoirleach

In regard to the work programme, the proposal is we will try to schedule UL and the Department of children, equality, etc., for 11 April and 18 April.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

One other piece of work we did that might be worth revisiting relates to the Central Bank. Members might remember we had two meetings that should have been one meeting. I believe there is work there for us to come back to in the whole area of competition within the sector. The part for which the Central Bank is accountable is the particular fund, but I wonder whether-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is the insurance compensation fund.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes. I wonder whether it is worth revisiting that piece of work to have a discussion at a future date. I am not proposing we add it at this point. When would that be due before us again, comptroller?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

There has been a set of financial statements since it was last in so it could be called in relation to the insurance compensation fund. Obviously, that is the extent of the committee's remit.

An Cathaoirleach

That is one for consideration in the future. The work programme is agreed as set out.

The last item on the public agenda today is any other business. Nobody has any other business; that is good. We now move into private session briefly before returning until 9.30 a.m. on 15 February when we will engage with the Department of Justice.

The committee went into private session at 1.49 p.m. and adjourned at 2.48 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 15 February 2024.