Skip to main content
Normal View

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 15 Feb 2024

Vote 21 - Prisons

Ms Oonagh McPhillips (Secretary General, Department of Justice) and Ms Caron McCaffrey (Director General, Irish Prison Service) called and examined.

Apologies have been received from Deputy Verona Murphy, Deputy Catherine Murphy, who may have to leave early, and Deputy Munster. I welcome everyone and remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 218 that they shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Sinéad Keane, audit manager at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We are engaging with officials from the Department of Justice to examine the following matters: appropriation accounts 2022; Vote 21 - Prisons; and Vote 24 - Justice. The committee has flagged a number of issues, such as the resourcing of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, and the International Protection Office, as areas of interest.

We are joined by the following officials from the Department of Justice: Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General; Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan, deputy Secretary General; Mr. John O'Callaghan, deputy Secretary General; Mr. Richard Dixon, director of immigration services and chief international protection officer; Ms Caron McCaffrey, director general of the Irish Prison Service; Mr. Derek Caldbeck, director of finance and estates at the Irish Prison Service; and Dr. Emma Regan, director of care and rehabilitation at the Irish Prison Service. We are also joined by Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan, principal officer at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. They are all very welcome. We have a big team appearing before us this morning.

I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McCarthy, to deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The appropriation account for Vote 24 - Justice records gross expenditure of €502 million in 2022. This was an increase of around €35 million, or 7%, on the prior year. Expenditure under the justice Vote in 2022 was distributed across two programmes, namely, a criminal justice pillar, which accounts for €333 million, or two thirds of the expenditure, and a civil justice pillar, which accounts for the remaining one third, or €169 million.

The largest single component of spend in the criminal justice programme was criminal legal aid, in respect of which expenditure of €77 million was incurred in 2022. Expenditure on Forensic Science Ireland, totalling €57 million, was also included in this programme. This includes €32.6 million incurred in 2022 in respect of the new forensic science laboratory developed at Backweston. The total expected project cost is €106 million, and it was substantially completed by the end of 2022. For the civil justice programme, the largest area of spend, apart from pay, is on the Legal Aid Board, with expenditure of €45 million in 2022, or 27% of programme spend.

I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the appropriation account for Vote 24. However, I drew attention to disclosures in the statement on internal financial control in respect of material instances of non-compliance with national procurement rules that occurred in respect of contracts that operated in 2022.

The Irish Prison Service is formally part of the Department of Justice but is funded and accounted for separately through Vote 21. While the Secretary General of the Department is the Accounting Officer for Vote 21, the Prison Service is headed operationally by its director general. The 2022 appropriation account for Vote 21 - Prisons records gross expenditure of almost €413 million. A total of 70% of the expenditure, totalling €290 million, relates to pay. The remainder is spread across a range of areas including maintenance and improvements to the prison estate, equipment purchases, education and services for prisoners and other operating costs.

Note 6.6 of the appropriation account provides an overview of certain non-Vote accounts operated within the Prison Service, including accounts for prisoners’ personal funds and prisoner welfare accounts. The note includes an update on progress made by the Prison Service in respect of voluntary mess committees, which have been an area of attention for the committee in the past. The note states that an operational review of the mess committees concluded in 2022 and that development of a model for the provision of staff meals is ongoing. I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the account.

I thank Mr. McCarthy. I now invite Ms McPhillips to deliver her opening statement.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I thank the committee for the invitation to meet regarding the two Votes. I am also grateful to the comptroller and his office for their work. I will share my time with the director general, Ms McCaffrey.

As the committee is aware, the justice Vote is one of six Votes in the sector and funds a wide range of public services in the Department itself and in a number of statutory agencies and bodies, with over 3,500 people working to serve the Government and the public. The organisation is growing in numbers, increasing from 3,149 staff in 2022 to 3,533 in 2023, and in diversity as well. The Department comprised 58% women in 2023, with an average gender pay gap of 5.3%, and on other diversity markers I am pleased to note increasing numbers of colleagues with disabilities, of more varied ethnicity and from the LGBT community. We have a purpose that connects people across a very wide variety of roles, all of them supporting our mission of working for a safe, fair and inclusive Ireland.

The Department's net expenditure for 2022, the year under examination, was €398 million, and as the Comptroller and Auditor General has mentioned, this included capital expenditure of €33.1 million on the new, world-class laboratory for Forensic Science Ireland which was completed last year. Current expenditure is under two distinct programmes of work across 46 subheads in the Vote. Programme A is criminal justice and programme B is civil justice, which includes immigration. In the year leading to April 2022, the CSO recorded that almost 90,000 people moved to Ireland. Some 22,000 were returning Irish citizens, 25,000 were arrivals from UK and EU countries, 10,000 were from India and 5,000 were from Brazil. These figures illustrate that the overwhelming majority of the people who move to Ireland do so to work or study and make vital contributions to our economy and society. As the committee will be aware, sectors like healthcare, home care, home construction, technology, retail, hospitality and transport are hugely dependent on the very positive contributions that migrants make.

Of course, 2022 also saw the invasion of Ukraine, which posed an unprecedented humanitarian challenge. Following the triggering of the temporary protection directive in early March that year, the Department moved quickly to establish our Ukraine response team. Within a few days, with support from the DAA and working closely with colleagues in the Department of integration and the Department of Social Protection, the team had put in place a dedicated operation. They worked collaboratively and compassionately to welcome and register people fleeing the war so they could access necessary supports as quickly as possible. Our data and IT teams innovated and worked across government to create a joined-up paperless operation and the team moved to more suitable office accommodation in City West and a more sustainable work pattern in May 2022.

Some 68,774 beneficiaries of temporary protection were registered in 2022, and 32,573 were registered in 2023, meaning that to date, in the region of 104,000 people have been granted temporary protection under the directive. Parallel to this, there was a return to international travel following the lifting of Covid restrictions. Our border management unit at Dublin Airport processed 13.9 million arrivals in 2022. That increased to 16.6 million in 2023 and the number of applicants for international protection increased significantly with 13,647 applications in 2022, which reduced slightly to 13,276 in 2023. Managing this increase has involved adaptability and skill by colleagues at all levels. We do not claim to be perfect but significant progress is being made across the international protection system to meet the scale of demand. This has involved unparalleled investment in staff and panel members, re-engineered processes, and technology. The outcome of this can be seen in the number of monthly determinations made by the IPO, up from 281 in November 2022 to just over 1,000 in November 2023. The Minister introduced an accelerated process for applicants from safe countries in November 2022 and these applicants now typically receive first-instance decisions in less than ten weeks. The number of applications from safe countries has fallen by 38% in the first year of this accelerated process. The IPO made 2,482 first-instance determinations in 2021, 4,323 in 2022 and 9,000 in 2023. Therefore, we are confident of delivering over 14,000 decisions this year, which is another increase of 5,000.

There is also significant investment in the independent International Protection Appeals Tribunal. The timescales for appeals have been reduced from 13.5 months to five and a half months in 2023. Every element of the protection system is being reviewed and re-engineered to deliver fair, fast outcomes for applicants. We are also implementing a major modernisation programme across the entire immigration function. The programme will replace legacy IT systems to introduce an integrated single view of all applicants and restructure immigration operations around efficient common processes to serve the public better.

We have previously discussed here the priority of tackling domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV, a key objective in the Department's strategy and the zero tolerance strategy published in June 2022. The Department has worked closely with partners over the past year or so to draft the necessary legislation and to co-design and establish Cuan, the new statutory agency responsible for leading the whole-of-government implementation of the strategy, including the delivery of support services and refuge accommodation, and the equally important task of education, awareness and prevention. Collaboration and partnership between communities and State agencies also underpins the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act, which was signed into law last week. This new legal framework gives effect to the recommendations of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland and puts in statute the shared ownership of community safety and reforming all aspects of policing, including the functions of An Garda Síochána, and the landscape of oversight, governance and accountability arrangements. The community safety approach has been piloted through three local community partnerships in Longford, Waterford and Dublin's north inner city. These and other areas have also benefited from the community safety innovation fund, which was established in 2022. A total of €1.623 million was allocated to 22 organisations in 2022. This increased to €2.84 million between 30 organisations in 2023, and a total of €3.75 million is available in 2024.

In this vein, I would also mention the youth justice strategy. Expenditure under that subhead was €22.8 million in 2022, while funding of €30 million is provided this year to support youth diversion projects nationwide. These youth diversions and other measures provide both value for money and effective deterrents in preventing the destruction and trauma caused by crime.

The new policing Act will also strengthen independent oversight of An Garda Síochána, through the new Policing and Community Safety Authority which will combine the existing oversight functions of the Policing Authority with the inspection functions carried out by the Garda Inspectorate. A new Garda board is designed to strengthen corporate governance. As the committee is aware, a new complaints body, Fiosrú, will be established to replace the existing GSOC. The Act sets out comprehensive reform of the processes for handling complaints and investigations into allegations of wrongdoing by Garda employees.

The Department works productively with all agencies in the sector and these relationships are governed by formal oversight and performance agreements designed to ensure accountability and clarity while upholding the independence appropriate to various bodies. We work with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to secure funding and resource needs for each body through the annual Estimates process. The Department has engaged proactively with GSOC since its establishment. GSOC's funding has grown from €9.6 million in 2016 to €19.6 million this year, while its staffing has also more than doubled in the same period. We recognise and support its challenging and vital role and the increased funding demonstrates the Government's strong commitment to building the organisation. My team has worked closely with colleagues in GSOC in preparation for the establishment of Fiosrú. I look forward to engaging with the new CEO and ombudsman who are currently being recruited by the Public Appointments Service for the new structure. We can go into further detail as members wish. I will hand over to Ms McCaffrey.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

I am grateful for the invitation to discuss Vote 21 with the committee today, which had a total net expenditure of €401 million in 2022. Emerging from the Covid pandemic in 2022, a significant amount of innovation was delivered within the Irish Prison Service, such as the introduction of video visits. Since their introduction in 2021, 45% of all visits are now video visits, which allows prisoners to see more people on a visit, affords more privacy and saves families the expense and inconvenience of having to travel to a prison. To further lessen the burden for families and reduce the risk of cash within the prison environment, the introduction in 2020 of electronic methods of sending money to prisoners has resulted in €16 million being electronically transferred into prisoner’s accounts. Subject to funding, the digitisation of prison services forms a key pillar in our 2023-27 strategic plan. We will modernise our service and improve governance through digital developments that enable more transparent and tailored services, support innovation and improve efficiency and effectiveness in a cohesive and holistic manner.

As members will be aware, the Irish Prison Service does not have the option of refusing committals and must accept all people committed by the courts. We reported over 7,043 committals to prison in 2022, which represented an increase of 15% on the 2019 figure. The annual number of committals has risen further in 2023 to 7,946. We have worked effectively to free up spaces within the existing prison estate through the implementation of a prison population management plan. However, this has now reached its limits. This trend of higher demands on the prison system is expected to increase into the future, contributed to by factors such as overall population growth, increasing Garda and judicial resources, and more frequent court sittings.

The Irish Prison Service has a strong record of accomplishment of modernisation and delivery of innovative projects. These include the completion of a new complex in Limerick Prison delivered in 2022 within its budget of €71.5 million, which provides additional spaces for both women and men. The repurposing and reopening of the training unit in 2022 to accommodate older male prisoners with additional needs allows us to offer a more tailored and highly effective healthcare service. We are committed to continuing to invest in our prison estate to ensure that it is modern and fit for purpose and that it has the capacity to humanely accommodate those committed to prison by the courts. Following a review of the prison estate, a number of locations have been identified as the best options to yield capacity within the existing footprint of the estate to deliver additional accommodation. Planning has commenced for four capital projects at Castlerea, Cloverhill, the Midlands and Mountjoy prisons which will deliver a maximum of 620 additional spaces, subject to the availability of the necessary capital resources.

Recruitment into the organisation continued during 2022 and 2023 with over 320 new prison officers recruited. Continued innovation by our staff led to the Irish Prison Service becoming the first public or private employer to be awarded the prestigious Amber Flag by Pieta House. This recognition highlighted the service’s unwavering commitment to fostering mental well-being and creating inclusive and supportive environments within its organisation.

These are some of the successes and challenges of the Irish Prison Service in 2022. They are successes and challenges that have been accomplished and faced by the staff of the Irish Prison Service with determination and innovation to create a better service for all. Both the Secretary General and I will be happy to take any questions the Chair and committee members may have about the 2022 appropriation accounts.

I thank the witnesses for joining us today. I have a deep appreciation for all they are doing in the Department of Justice and the Irish Prison Service. It is not an easy job. I am sure the demands have increased tenfold in the last number of years. It is great to have them here. I will look for clarification on some matters.

I firstly want to focus on the immigrant investor programme, IIP, which ceased to accept new applications back in February 2023. Despite the closure, applications which were already submitted continued to be evaluated. Can I get an up-to-date position on how many applications are being processed in 2023 and how many have been approved to date?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I thank the Deputy for his kind comments. We have about 2,700 applications on hand at the moment from investors in respect of about 130 applications. There were many applications in 2023. In 2022, 1,316 applications were received. In 2023, another 700 applications were received. I have a little more detail here, if that is okay. In 2022, 307 applications were approved. In 2023, that number was 251.

Where is the Department with the process of evaluation now? When does it see the programme itself being wound down? How many applications are still being evaluated? Concerns were raised previously about the number of applicants from China. Is that still a concern?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

After the closure of the programme, either this day last year or yesterday last year, arrangements were put in place for the orderly winding down. These arrangements were finalised last month and are now being implemented. The independent evaluation committee has the people who assess the applications. They are committed to exploring new ways of potentially expediting what is on hand because a significant volume is on hand. All IIP stakeholders have been notified at this stage of the timescales. It varies depending on the type of application it is and the amount of information we have. Some are in a state that can be decided and some have been decided. We will need much more information for others and there is a process of engagement with the stakeholders.

There is a process for further information to be supplied.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes. It will be quite some time. I imagine it will be years before we work our way through that.

That is good to hear because I am sure every constituency has applicants who are currently in the system. It is important that there is continuous engagement and not a cliff-edge with regard to the winding down of this programme.

I will move on to visa applications. In 2023, the Department received more than166,000 applications, which is a 22% increase from 2022. Some 158 of these decisions were made, with an approval rate of 86%. Will the witnesses give us an understanding of the demand on applications within their Department relating to visas, immigration permissions and citizen applications?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is very busy across all those businesses. I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to come in with the detail on visas.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

As the Deputy said, there was a significant increase last year across the board, for all types of visa applications. We see visa applications, as one would expect, for employment, study and to join family. We have a network of visa offices around the world, including our own staff around the world. Our office in India is particularly busy and is working hard to process these as quickly as possible. The processing times vary around the world from six to 12 weeks. A straightforward study or employment visa can be dealt with quite quickly. Other visas are more complex and require further investigation.

The processing time is a frustration. Constituents come to us looking for clarity on timelines. Does the Department have key performance indicators in its assessment? Are its timelines realistic? Are they clearly communicated to those who are actually in the application system?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

That is a very fair point. We would publish our target processing times and, typically, we would tell people what day or week we are currently dealing with. That is in the public domain and we can share it with the Deputy.

Is that shared with the applicants?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

That is on our websites. People can get the information from the different visa offices. They will tell people what stage they are dealing with and what type of applications. Typically, joint family visas take longer and require more investigation. People coming to visit and study for short visits, conferences and things like that take less time. That information is all available to applicants. We monitor the key performance indicators.

Has the Department increased its staffing for visa applications?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Staffing has increased across the immigration service but we have many competing demands across all fronts, whether international protection, visas, as the Deputy says, and citizenship. We balance the allocation of staffing against multiple demands. There is a huge increase in staffing. As the Secretary General said, there is a significant investment in technology in the immigration service. With the growth in business, we cannot keep chasing this with more and more staff. We need to apply technology and make this more streamlined. That is where we will probably get the bulk of our productivity in the coming years.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The Deputy asked about citizenship. If he likes, I can give him those numbers. There were 17,188 applications in 2022. In 2023, there were 22,500 applications. We made 15,000 decisions in 2022 and 20,000 in 2023. The efficiency levels are going up. One of the features of that is that we significantly increased our output and ceremonies in 2023. The team organised 15 ceremonies in 2023 to cover 13,700 people, whereas that number in 2022 was 4,300 in six ceremonies. The Deputy can see that we can have greater throughput the more of those we have. The vast bulk of citizenship applications are within the last two years.

A key feature of the Department of Justice has been the International Protection Office. How has the demand on services in that area impacted the Department's budgetary forecasting and staffing ratio in order to implement the accelerated procedures and cut down the processing times?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have invested heavily in staffing, change management and technology.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

The crude numbers are that staffing in the International Protection Office has doubled from about 200 to 400 over the course of the last year, which is a huge increase. There is additional funding of €34 million across the international protection process into 2024. We are also bringing on board more panel members and more investment at the appeals stage. As has been said, there is very significant investment in technology. The whole application process at first stage is increasingly paperless, which allows for significant savings when moving applications through the system, including on to appeal stage.

There is a significant focus on processing, particularly the accelerated cases where our original target was three months but we are comfortably realising that at 60 days so we are very pleased with the Department's-----

How can the Department jump from 22 to 26 months in early 2022 to less than 60 days?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The 60 days concern the accelerated cases. I might ask Mr. Dixon to come in on this because he is heading it up so he is very familiar with the data.

Mr. Richard Dixon

The 22 to 26 month processing time was across all international protection applications. The concept of safe countries of origin such as Georgia and South Africa always existed. In November 2022, we introduced an accelerated process that took time between the steps out. We prioritised interviews and the consideration of the applicant's case without taking any other protections or steps out. That is what allowed us to reduce the processing time. Across the remainder, the processing time has come down from the 22 months referenced by the Deputy to about 13 or 14 months for the entirety of applicants.

How many applicants would be greater than 22 or 24 months?

Mr. Richard Dixon

Regarding 97% or 98% of applicants currently being considered, those applications have been made in the past two years so the vast majority are reasonably recent.

Could Mr. Dixon put a figure on it?

Mr. Richard Dixon

I would say fewer than 700 are more than two years old.

What is the average for those in between in order to be processed? Mr. Dixon is saying that over 700 are-----

Mr. Richard Dixon

-----more than two years old. Invariably there would be an element of their application that is complicated. There is one in particular that goes back to 2014. There are particular incidents that are delaying the processing of that. There is a significant focus on accelerating all aspects of the procedure and focusing on making sure people are not waiting around for a life-changing determination be that refugee status, subsidiary protection or a refusal.

Regarding refusals, what is the Department's follow up when an order has been issued to an applicant? How does the Department execute that order?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

From Mr. Dixon's point of view, the International Protection Office makes the decision and that is its end of business. A letter goes out to the applicant and we take it from there. It is not the business of the International Protection Office to pursue that.

In terms of the refusal and the deportation order.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is correct. It concerns a notice letter.

Who follows up on the deportation order?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have a different unit that does that.

Could I get some detail about that?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

When a person comes to the end of the international protection process, he or she is notified that the application has been refused and is given the option of engaging with an assisted returns programme, which is a voluntary return programme. If the person chooses not to opt for that, a deportation order will issue. That is then provided to the Garda National Immigration Bureau, which will take steps to seek to enforce that order. We work very closely with the Garda National Immigration Bureau and International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, to have information about the whereabouts of people, including their most recent IPAS address and An Garda Síochána seeks to enforce the order.

How many deportation orders are issued?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

A total of 157 orders were signed last year. On top of that, there were 230 voluntary returns so they would not have been subject to deportations orders.

What checks and balances does the Department take to ensure that those people have actually left the country?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

The principal step is that An Garda Síochána seeks to enforce the order with the most recent information available to us, which is usually an IPAS address. There will also be follow up in terms of any social protection information that might be available. The reality is that while every effort is made to identify whether or not somebody has left the country, it is difficult to do so and it is not really possible to say so definitively in the absence of exit controls in the jurisdiction. However, the Garda National Immigration Bureau has in the past reviewed large numbers of cases, looked at them closely and carried out inquiries. Its conclusion is that a very significant number of the people in question have left the State and there was no sign of them in the State anymore. That is something we continue to work on.

There have been recent reports that the Department is chartering planes to support the deportation orders. Is this correct?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Charters have always been part of the methodologies we use to remove people. Obviously, that did not take place during Covid. We are out to the market at the moment and are requesting information that leads to a request for tender. The objective is to have a drawdown contract for charter flights available probably by quarter three of this year. Assuming we can assemble enough people to make it viable to run a charter, we expect to do that this year. It will never replace ordinary commercial flights, which are very flexible, and we continue to use them but it is an important part of the methodologies we used in the past that all jurisdictions across Europe use.

There are a number of small issues I want to deal with. I will continue Deputy Dillon's line of questioning regarding immigration. For reasons to do with our history, we probably have never seen the significant numbers we have seen in the past number of years and we have probably never had the full public debate on the issue of immigration that we see in many other countries. Sometimes things are thrown out in that debate that may or may not be true. I want to use this opportunity to talk through some of those and the processes that are put in place. The biggest question I get asked involves what happens when people come to our airports. At a previous committee, the witnesses noted that a very significant number - possibly as many as 40% - were non-port or airport applications for asylum but there is a question about those who come to airports. They get off a plane and clearly had to had a passport to get on a plane but then they present without a passport. Can Ms McPhillips talk me through that issue, the veracity of that and what we are doing to address the issue?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will give the numbers because I am conscious that the airport was very quiet for a couple of years during Covid and then it really stepped up in 2022 so our border management unit would have processed nearly 14 million people in 2022. Of those, we refused leave to land - as we call it - to 7,662 and of those-----

When Ms McPhillips says refused entry, does she mean at the airport?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes, at Dublin Airport.

So 7,600 people attended Dublin Airport and were refused entry to the country.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

For various reasons on the basis of their papers - a very large proportion of those were without papers while others had false documents and that was detected at the booth. A total of 4,968 people did not have papers or claimed not to have papers.

Is that 4,968 out of the 7,600?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes and then 832 had false documents. In 2023, the numbers arriving were 16.6 million and of those, 5,825-----

So the figure was-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There were 16.6 million arrivals coming through immigration in Dublin Airport. We are just talking about the airport. Of those, 5,800 were refused leave to land and of those 3,285 did not have papers while 872 had false documents.

When somebody is refused leave to land, what happens to them next?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Some of them are turned around and put on the next flight. They might be held for an hour or two or-----

Is that done by the DAA or the Department of Justice?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is done by the Garda National Immigration Bureau in consultation with our own staff.

So it is done within the airport-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

By the Garda National Immigration Bureau. That happens in some cases. In other cases, there might not be an available flight for a day or so. Those people might be held in the Garda station at the airport, others might have their passports held and be asked to come back and others seek asylum. Quite a substantial number seek international protection at that point.

One would imagine that if somebody was deliberately destroying their passport with the intention of claiming asylum under a new application name or for whatever reason, that is the next step. They will claim asylum.

Of the 5,800 who were refused leave to land, how many went on to claim asylum?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Last year, the figure was 4,710.

The vast majority, then.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

To clarify the position on the destruction of papers, sometimes people who are genuine and have a well-grounded fear of persecution might also be travelling on false documents and may not be able to get passports. We have to keep an open mind as to their motivation.

There is a belief among the public that if a person has a travel document to get on and off a plane, a question arises as to how he or she can present without that document. I am trying to tease that out. Of the 5,800, 4,700 went on to claim asylum. Once people claim asylum, my understanding is that they are fingerprinted, photographed and their details are referenced against-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The European Asylum Dactyloscopy Database, Eurodac.

Exactly. Does it matter then if such persons destroy their passports? If a person is fleeing as a result of crime they committed somewhere in the world, arrives here in Dublin, destroys their passport and claims asylum; they will be fingerprinted and that will be referenced against Eurodac.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It will.

In the context of catching criminals who are trying to use Ireland as some sort of refuge, they can be caught as a result of their fingerprints as opposed to the travel documents they have destroyed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I just want to be careful in not classifying all of the people as criminals-----

I am not doing so; I am only saying that in the case of - I will put my comments in context - the people to whom I refer. I am trying to debunk some of the concerns regarding a person who committed a crime and is being sought by the police in another country and who destroys his or her passport on arrival here. When that person presents, he or she will be fingerprinted and his or her details will be referenced against Eurodac.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Just to clarify - Mr. O’Sullivan might come in on this also - quite often when individuals seek asylum, they tell us their real identity. They will have other documents to prove their identity and they will produce them. They may have a copy on their phone or something like that. Having gained entry, they do not necessarily continue to have a different identity, if that makes sense.

So the false identity was for the purposes of transit from one airport to another. That is interesting. Of the individuals referenced against Eurodac, how many referrals come back with details of significant criminal convictions?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Just to further clarify, Eurodac is used to check the fingerprints of people who have crossed a border or who have sought asylum-----

Have sought asylum elsewhere.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It does not involve a check of a criminal database. There is another check via the Schengen information system, SIS, which would show if the person is wanted in another country.

I am interested in cases where, during the asylum process, it is identified that someone has either committed a crime or has somehow escaped a jurisdiction to try to evade justice. Are the numbers in that regard small?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

Does Ms McPhillips know what they might be?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I do not have them to hand. That is probably a matter for the Garda. We can refuse refugee status on the basis of-----

That is my next question. If someone has presented false documents and has a conviction or is the subject of an open warrant, they can be refused. I just wanted to parse that out, because this is one of the biggest concerns.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Before we grant asylum or international protection, we will also do a character check with the Garda on how people have behaved since entering this country. There is a further check at that stage.

It is well known that if somebody is seeking asylum, they are less likely to commit a crime because they will be brought to the attention of the police. If I was making an application for asylum, I would be the most law-abiding citizen I could be because I would not want to attract the attention of the police.

There is a question regarding the airlines. Regardless of whether someone comes here on a false passport, with papers or whatever, there is a belief that airlines should be doing more. Can Ms McPhillips comment on that matter?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We work very closely with the airlines. The Garda National Immigration Bureau has done the training with airlines and so forth. I will ask Mr O’Sullivan to expand on that.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

The Garda National Immigration Bureau and ourselves do great work with the airlines. We founded and fund the training programmes for staff, and we have done direct training with their ground staff. We find that we get a great deal of assistance from them. They have no interest in allowing people who are not legitimate to board. We also have the option of carrier liability fines, which we apply. Over €1 million in such fines were imposed by the Garda last year. As a result of the efforts we have made, there was a reduction of 34% in the number undocumented persons arriving last year. That is notwithstanding the fact that overall passenger numbers increased during the same period. The impact of that is being assessed. The Garda also works closely with other airports and has a liaison officers overseas to assist at overseas locations. That is having a good impact also. We keep adjusting because the patterns and routes keep changing.

I may come back to that in a later round of questions.

On the previous occasion our guests were before the committee, I pushed very heavily on the roll-out of the north inner city drug and alcohol task force. I welcome the announcement this week that John Costello is going to chair the implementation board in Ballymun. The witnesses will know that my next question is going to be about the other communities to which this should be rolled out. I have a general question about how the Department intends to resource that expansion.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I referred earlier to the new Policing, Security and Community Safety Act, which provides for community safety partnerships across the country. One of the bodies to be set up under the Act is the national community safety office. We will be doing that work now over the next-----

Does Ms McPhillips believe that there are sufficient financial resources available to roll that out?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is certainly well resourced. It is to be established this year.

I thank the Deputy.

Apologies. I have one final thing I wish to mention. I acknowledge the work of Ben Ryan, as well as that of Elizabeth Canavan and Barry Vaughan. All of them pushed very hard on this matter and I want to thank-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I thank the Deputy very much for those comments.

-----them for the work that they did. Sometimes we give witnesses a great deal of criticism. It is important to give them the compliments when they are due.

They have done well. I also wish to ask Ms McPhillips about the new community safety partnerships. Will they impinge on the joint police committees or will they be replacing them?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

They will replace them under the new statute.

Is the general gist of it that they will have more powers of oversight?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

They will have broader oversight. There will be agencies other than the Garda involved. There will be health, Tusla and many other State agencies.

My concern is that there would be too many talking shops. That is all.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

No. It is definitely a replacement as opposed to an addition.

I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. The Department has provide some figures on people in temporary protection. These figures obviously relate to Ukraine and stood at 68,000 in 2022 and 32,000 in 2023. We have heard various figures regarding the number of people from Ukraine who are here at the moment. Just because 104,000 people have been given that protection does not mean that this is the number of persons who are here now.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

No, that is absolutely the case. It was just that we had to process them, so-----

Do we have any idea, then, of the number that are here.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We do not. I heard my colleague from the Department of Social Protection comment on that a few weeks ago, but we would not have that information. Our engagement is with them is the initial-----

It is a matter for the Department of Social Protection.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

The Taoiseach has stated on a number of occasions that 80,000 are here. Today is an unfortunate anniversary because it marks the beginning of the third year of this war. Most people had an expectation when it happened that it would be short-lived but, unfortunately, that has not proved to be the case.

From what she has said, Ms McPhillips does not accept the charge we repeatedly hear about the number of unvetted men arriving into the country. That is not the case. People claiming international asylum go through a process. They are fingerprinted, photographed and there are two potential checks, namely, against a database for people crossing borders and then the SIS database

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There are two different checks. Ultimately-----

There is a vetting process.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I want to be careful around vetting, which has a particular meaning. We work in a legal environment. Vetting has a different meaning. There are checks against European databases both on their movement as immigrants and, if they are wanted in any EU state, that will come up as a hit on the SIS check.

I want to move on to the Prison Service. I was intrigued to hear about the electronic transfer of cash. Some €16 million was electronically transferred into prisoners’ accounts. Is there a limit on the amount of money a prisoner can receive?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

There is no formal limit. Generally what happens is that prisoners, on average, are supported by their families by €40 per week. We would obviously continuously check the amount of money that is held in prisoners' accounts from a security perspective. That work is ongoing. Generally, prisoners receive small amounts from their families of €20 or €40 a week to support them in terms of things they need to purchase in prison.

That is absolutely fine and I do not have an issue with that. It is just that the amount jumped out at me.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

It is a lot of prisoners.

Could there be one prisoner getting a lot of money?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We would be profiling that from a security perspective. Generally, prisoners are getting a small amount of money from their families to support themselves and tuck shops. The main point I want to make is that previously that money was coming into prisons in cash and postal orders. That is a huge volume of cash to be within a prison system.

Yes, and this maintains a degree of control.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

Yes, absolutely.

Ms McPhillips gave us information on Dublin Airport. We have previously heard about people arriving in this country via Northern Ireland. How does the Department manage or know the number arriving? Is it because people claim asylum?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We know how many claim asylum at Dublin Airport. We also know how many claim asylum, generally in Mount Street. That is the other place where they claim asylum, in the IPO office.

So that is how the Department knows?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

Does Ms McPhillips have the numbers?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I do not have them to hand but maybe I can-----

And from the other airports as well.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is very small in the other airports.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We have information on airports generally, on ports and other locations, which includes Garda stations. A majority of applications are made in the IPO and, in many cases, people will tell us that they have travelled across the Border to make their application.

If we could have that information-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes, sure.

-----even in a note afterwards, that would be appreciated.

What happens in the case of a person who does not accept direct provision and does not receive any State assistance? Presumably, that is people who have family who are already here. Does that include the €38 for an adult? Do these people receive no support whatsoever? Does the Secretary General know the numbers involved?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I am not certain because we do not do the support. It is our colleagues in the Department of integration.

So that is the Department of Social Protection again.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

And the Department of integration and, therefore, its officials would know whether these people are getting accommodation or are without accommodation, and would know what support is needed.

Does the Department of Justice cross-reference with them?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

They are co-located with us. We accommodate IPAS in our building on Mount Street, and some of the other services such as the Legal Aid Board and so forth I do not have the information to hand.

Officials from GSOC appeared before us a couple of weeks ago. They told us that, in other jurisdictions, the general caseload is ten cases per investigator and GSOC now has 20 cases per investigator, which is considerably lower than the much higher caseload before this. Obviously there has been an increase in the budget and staffing for GSOC, and we went through that with them. Is there further proposed increases in numbers? Has GSOC applied for additional staffing and where is that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have worked very closely with them over the past year or 18 months in preparation for the new entity. We assisted them to commission and pay for an organisational review that I think they probably referred to when they were here. The review formed the basis for their business case for budget 2024 and it will inform the consequential budgets as well. The increase for this year was very substantial as they got a 17% increase, from 2023 to 2024. From 2022 to 2023, GSOC got a 25% increase in its budget. That is very substantial compared with the rest of the sector. I would expect that to continue as well.

Hopefully, so that we reach the international norm and I understand that the Department has to build up to that.

I was intrigued by the amount for the highest individual payment for overtime in the Prison Service in 2022. One individual received an overtime payment of €77,000. How does that comply with the EU working time directive? Is the payment a complete outlier? What is the norm? It would be preferable to employ extra people rather than employ people on overtime. The payment implies there is a need to employ another body rather than have one person doing the overtime.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

A couple of factors have had an impact on our spend on annualised hours. One is staff shortages. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we have been recruiting. We took in almost 200 new staff last year. The intention is to take in 300 staff this year to fill existing vacancies. Where there are vacancies in the system and where there has been an increase in unstructured tasks, there is a requirement for us to put additional staff into the system to manage that.

It is an incredible amount - €77,000 in overtime.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

On the additional pressures within the system, where we have additional prisoners, there is a requirement to put additional staff on to landings. We have had an increase in the number of escorts we need to conduct a court and to hospital. We have another increase in the number of hospital appointments. The annualised hours system works on the basis that each member of staff can work a maximum of 360 hours a year but they can also avail of pooled hours in excess of that, if they are fully compliant, with the additional hours.

The prisons are at capacity and there are new extensions. What is the average cost of keeping someone in prison for a year? Does the Department have the capital budget to complete those projects so as there are sufficient places for people without having very significant overcrowding, which leads to other issues?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

On the capital budget, a review of the NDP is ongoing. We are engaging with the Department of public expenditure on that to settle the budget for the next round of the NDP. That is in train at the moment.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We have been very well supported in terms of the capital budget. As I mentioned, we concluded our biggest capital project, which was in Limerick Prison, in 2022 at a cost of just over €70 million. Obviously, we will continue in respect of our capital projects.

On the cost per prison space, the cost in 2022 was just over €84,000 and that increased to just over €88,000 in 2023. Those increases predominantly related to increases in public sector pay, which have a knock-on effect, and increases that we have been witnessing in respect of inflation, particularly around food, medical costs, utilities, etc.

I thank the witnesses.

I thank Deputy McAuliffe for doing a very valuable piece of work where he worked through that business of people arriving undocumented. His work was very forensic and it was a very good use of the committee's time.

Deputy Murphy focused on one person who was paid €77,138 in overtime in the one year. That is one example. It is hard to get one's head around that amount of overtime. However, 271 staff were recipients of €10,000 or more in overtime worked. How does that translate into hours worked? The amount depends on the pay grade and we have some numbers but I do not have a handle on how many hours were worked.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The average, and this relates to annualised hours was just over €13,500. There are three different bands. A staff member can opt to work 112, 240 or 360 hours. Annualised hours are paid at a rate of 1.8 times average hourly rate so it works out at just over €45 per hour.

It is a long working week when one has put in an extra 360 hours.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

Our staff do an incredible job within the service. They have a roster that is built around a maximum time one and a maximum time off. There is also the requirement to work additional hours. As I mentioned, the system has been under pressure in recent years and staff have been really great at assisting us, and being willing to work those additional hours, at great cost to themselves and their families.

My next question is on the impacts of the lack of staffing. Is Ms McCaffrey confident that the Prison Service is adhering to the Organisation of Working Time Act?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

There are exemptions for the Prison Service around the Organisation of Working Time Act, which is a maximum of 48 hours, but there are obviously requirements around having sufficient time off and sufficient rest breaks between shifts which we would be compliant with.

As I said, I am going to turn to another issue where resources come into play. I am addressing a letter from Ms McCaffrey to the Chairperson of the joint Oireachtas committee on education. As she knows, we visited Mountjoy. She pointed to some of the increased investment that has been made in the educational budget. It is difficult to pick out the educational budget. I can see the education services line and there is a welcome increase in 2022 to €1.4 million from what was under a €1 million in 2022, if I have that the right way around. There is obviously the staffing component. For example, the school was not open as many hours as it should have been because of the difficulty of getting people safely to and from. Likewise, the library service was closed for quite a bit of 2021 because it was difficult to keep it staffed and to get people there securely. That is one of the things our report shone a light on. Has there been movement? Have these issues been addressed? Are we happy people are getting the services they should be able to access?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The priority of the Prison Service is always to offer the maximum amount of structured activity we can to people in our care because we know by engaging in education and work training we can reduce the risk of reoffending when people get out. The system has been under pressure and a governor on any given day really wants to prioritise the opening of those services, but there are tasks the governor has to assign resources to which regrettably, from time to time, can lead to the closure of schools and work training activity. The predominant draw from prisons is on escorts. We have received additional funding to increase the number of staff in our escort corps and we have been working towards that, but certainly the number of school closures has been reducing and every prison has a regime management plan and there is a very strong effort made by all governors to keep our school and our work training activities open because when people are engaged in structured activity it also contributes to safer prisons for those prisoners and for our staff.

I know, and I am going to ask a question about recidivism and where we sit internationally. I would like to be given a ball-park understanding of the closures. I will take the Mountjoy example because that is where the committee visited. In an average month how many days is the library closed when we would like it to be open or for how many days is the school closed when we would like it to be open?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

If the Deputy bears with me, I have school closure figures here. I have figures for the first eight months of 2023 and across the system there were a total of 101 full-day closures. That is across our 13 institutions. It is of course higher than we would like it to be, but every effort is made to ensure our schools remain open so people can continue their education because we really believe as a service that if we can give people opportunities to engage in education it will certainly assist them in their rehabilitation when they leave our custody.

Another issue I wish to flag, which was raised within the committee's report, is there is no access to educational psychologists for inmates if they have a learning difficulty. In a lot of cases an unidentified learning difficulty distances somebody from their education system. If they become distanced from their education system their likelihood of ending up in prison is far higher. It is a place where we should be advocating more resources for. When people are in prison for a prolonged period of time that is certainly the opportunity. There is not a question in that in a sense, because it is more for ourselves.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

I can say we are working quite closely with SOLAS and there is a building bridges programme that is aiming to increase the level of supports we have available within our prisons, especially for people with learning disabilities. Through that programme we have introduced things like ReaderPens, which have been transformational for people, so they are now in a position to use technology to assist them in their learning. For SOLAS, ourselves and the ETBs, this is an area where we would like to be in a position to support people to a greater extent.

The ten minutes always seems like it is going to be long and then when you are in it is incredibly short, but I will move to another issue. There was inspection report oversight monitoring visit during the Covid-19 pandemic at the Dóchas Centre, which was published in August 2020. A significant section of that report is redacted. Ms McCaffrey may correct me if I am wrong on this, but that redacted piece gave rise to two further reports that are as yet unpublished but sitting on the Minister's desk. The first is an investigation report under section 31(2) of the Prisons Act and then an associated supplementary report. Producing reports of that kind involves significant expenditure by the State. Ms McCaffrey can give me more detail on this. I understand there is legal advice as to why they are unpublished, but as members of the public accounts committee we are saying there has been considerable public expenditure on a number of reports and we do not have sight of them. Without having sight of them how can we comfort the issues identified in those reports have been adequately addressed?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will take that if it is okay because those reports were completed by the Office of the Inspector of Prisons on the Prison Service rather than by the Prison Service, if that makes sense. There are currently two reports outstanding, as the Deputy has said. The first-----

They are not outstanding though. They are-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Outstanding for publication, I am sorry. They have been submitted, absolutely. The reason they are not published is relating to legal advice. We would be keen to publish them at the earliest possible date, but at the moment we are constrained by the legal advice. There is a process ongoing that I cannot deal with in public.

Has Ms McPhillips any sense of a timeline whereby that process might be dealt with and the public gets to see the reports they paid for?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I would imagine it would be completed this year and I hope earlier rather than later this year.

Okay, I thank Ms McPhillips for that.

I want to talk through a specific issue my office has been dealing with. We have been banging our heads against the wall for a long time. It might be a niche issue, but if we addressed it we could get a good result for people in a short space of time. It is around qualified bus drivers coming in from South Africa. There are people who are English language speakers, trained individuals used to driving on the left-hand side of this road, but they have to go through this process and the process from start to finish takes about three months. We end up with people who are much-needed sitting and doing nothing for a period of three months, which is not what any of us want. People coming in have to go through a process of getting a work permit and they must have all their documentation. In order to exchange their South African licence for an Irish licence people need the Irish residence permit. To get the Irish residence permit people must either present to Burgh Quay in Dublin or there is a network of offices throughout the country. I believe there is a big improvement at Burgh Quay and it is down to two weeks, but outside Dublin people are waiting two to three months for Kilkenny and about three months for Limerick. Then people had another three weeks to get a physical card.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I am familiar with this all right.

Their documentation has already been cleared in order to get the work permit in the first place. That is the penultimate step, because then the National Driver Licence Service requires a PPS number, proof of PPS, proof of address and all these things. That takes a further 20 days. There are bits in this process that are adding on time, like the two to three weeks waiting around for an appointment and the three weeks to get the bloody card.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We are doing quite a lot of work in this space. I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to deal with it if that is okay.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

I thank the Deputy. Obviously we are responsible for the registration bit of that and as he says-----

I know the Department of Transport also has a role to play in this.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

The Department of Transport and I assume the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with the original work permit. We have done a lot of work to get our processing times down in Burgh Quay, as the Deputy noted. People can book an appointment on the phone now and they can usually get a slot within about a week. While we say we send the card out in ten to 15 days my understanding is it is often under a week. We have done a lot of work on that and done a lot of that online as well, so that is working very well.

The times have improved in Dublin, but outside Dublin they have slipped. They were four to five weeks and now they are out to two or three months.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There is a process around that as well.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Yes. Registration outside Dublin is managed by the Garda National Immigration Bureau. There is a longer-term project recommended by the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland that we take on that work around the country. We are working on a roadmap to do that and roll that out. There is quite a lot involved in taking that on in terms of technology, staff, change processes and so on, but it is our objective that process ultimately be managed by the immigration services of the Department, have a great deal more automation and see significant improvements in processing time. It will take us quite some time to roll that out across the country.

I raised bus drivers because I have been dealing with the issue quite a bit-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Yes, I am familiar with the issue.

-----but I am sure it applies across the board for people who are arriving for work permits.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We are conscious of it all right.

I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. Deputy Burke is next.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and thank the officials for the presentation and the work both Departments are dealing with.

Let us open by examining the misinformation that is out there. People seem to be getting confused between those who are claiming international protection and those who come with work permits. My understanding, based on the last figures I saw, is that something like 530,000 people are working here, who are not Irish citizens. They work here and are paying tax. There is a bit of confusion on the figures.

On the citizenship issue, do we have any idea of the figures for each year over the last ten years for people from abroad who have applied for Irish citizenship and complied with all the rules?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The total per year is well over 100,000.

Would it be possible to send us on details for the last ten years of the number of applications that were fully processed and where citizenship was granted?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is no problem at all.

The second point relates to international protection. In 2022, I see that 13,647 applications were processed and in 2023 it was 13,277. Does that indicate also the number of applications received?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

No, that is the number received.

If we go back over a five-year period, what kind of numbers are we talking about for the three years prior to 2022 and 2023?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The numbers in 2020 and 2021 were suppressed because of Covid, but the office did remain open throughout the pandemic because people did make their way here occasionally as well. It was important to keep that access open and we staffed the office during the pandemic. I will get the numbers for Deputy Burke.

There is a perception out there that the numbers coming in are far higher than 13,000. I know it is slightly exaggerated because of the number of people who came in from Ukraine, but that is a different issue. As I understand it, there were 103,000 Ukrainians and 80,000 are currently still here. The perception out there is that far more than 13,000 a year are coming in. How many of the decisions in 2022 were positive towards the person remaining and how many applications were refused? Do we know the current status of the people whose application was refused?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I do not have the numbers in response to the Deputy's question on applications for 2020 and 2021 but I will get them for him. If it is okay I might ask Mr. Dixon to come in with some of the response.

Mr. Richard Dixon

The overall grant rate in 2022 was exceptionally high at 80%. That reflects the impact of the strand of the regularisation scheme as well as the follow-on from Covid. The grant rate in 2023 was 38%. For comparison, across Europe it was 48%, so our grant rate is slightly below what we have seen in the rest of Europe.

Was it 38% in 2023?

Mr. Richard Dixon

It was 38% in 2023.

Do we have any evidence on where the other 62% are based whose applications we did not approve? Are they still in Ireland?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Some of them have come through the rest of the system. We have had a number of deportations following decisions made in 2023. Other applicants are at different stages. Some of them may choose to appeal the initial decision. That process will be accelerated as well. The appeals tribunal is also accelerating the cases within the process. At the moment, the average decision-making time is roughly around five and a half months. When applicants reach the end of the process they go on to what we call "repatriation". There are a number of methodologies in regard to exit. One of the ones I have mentioned, which does not get much attention, is the voluntary return process. That is a very effective process from our point of view and from the point of view of the applicant as well.

If an applicant is in accommodation that is funded by the State and has gone through the entire process, including an appeal, at what stage does the State step in?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

If the person is still here, the deportation order is issued and that goes to the Garda National Immigration Bureau to execute. If the applicant has chosen not to exit-----

Are they still in the accommodation?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

No. What we are finding again and again, and what the Garda find, is that they are not in the accommodation at that point. They may well have left the country entirely. Some of the decisions are based on the fact that they have not been engaging with the process, so our belief in regard to those applications is that they have not been in the country at all. They may have made an initial application and then left the country and the decision is negative because they have not engaged with the process and so they are not here at that point at all.

Is the Department satisfied that we have done everything possible to expedite the whole process, including the appeals process? It was being dragged on for quite a period of time because of judicial reviews, JRs, and all the rest of it.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We are certainly in the business of judicial reviews again. The number was up in 2023 by a significant percentage. I am satisfied that we are resourcing-----

What kind of numbers are we talking about for judicial reviews?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will get it now for Deputy Burke. There were 692 cases, across the entire immigration area, and not just relating to international protection at the end of January 2024.

We are still talking about a considerable period from the time a judicial review starts to when we get a final decision.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is actually much faster than it was in the past. The courts seem to be very speedy at the moment. Quite a lot of the judicial reviews were received in 2023 and 2022 so it is not a huge amount of time.

A total of 712 JRs were received in 2023 and, of those, 152 related to the tribunal. It is a proportion but it is not the majority of cases.

If I can, I will just move back to the prisons issue. Ms McPhillips referred to overtime and taking prisoners into hospital for care, and other such matters. I raised HIV treatment in the health committee. If someone has HIV, as I understand it, the programme takes 12 weeks. In some cases it is available within the prison so the prisoner does not have to be taken into a hospital setting. Have we implemented that in all of our prisons at this stage?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

I am sorry but is the Deputy referring to hepatitis C?

Yes, I am sorry - my apologies - it is hepatitis C. It is a huge cost if we have to take a prisoner into a hospital setting for 12 weeks in a row, whereas I understand in one of the prisons in Dublin they have a comprehensive programme whereby all of the care is within the prison.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We have been engaging very well with our counterparts in the HSE on hepatitis C. We now have an in-reach programme for prisons in Dublin. There is a hepatitis C specialist nurse who attends the Dublin prisons to do testing and administer treatment. We do not have a similar arrangement for the rest of the country, although we have had a pilot programme in Cork Prison, where again we had in-reach services coming in to provide the service within the prison.

Following our engagement with the HSE, it has agreed to provide us with a second specialist hepatitis C nurse who will cover the rest of the country.

Does Ms McCaffrey accept that there would be huge savings if we do not have to take prisoners to hospitals?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The model now is an in-reach model. The Deputy is absolutely right. The hepatitis C specialist nurse travels to the prison and administers the treatment within the prison, as opposed to us having to escort prisoners to hospital. There is a lot of efficiency, including from an organisational perspective and also from the perspective of prisoners.

Is it now going to be available in every one of the prisons?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

It is already in place in the Dublin prisons and we have a pilot programme running in respect of Cork. The HSE has agreed to fund a second post that would allow us to cover the rest of the prisons. We are currently engaging with the HSE on the recruitment of that post. At that stage we would have an in-reach service in all prisons.

We have talked about the cost of overtime. Is Ms McCaffrey satisfied that we have sufficient processes in place in our prisons to provide healthcare for prisoners whereby we could cut costs by having a service within the prison rather than people having to be transferred to a hospital setting?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

I think the Deputy is right. That is certainly an area of efficiency for us. It is one of our priorities in the new strategy around digitalisation. We have been engaging on X-rays in particular.

Nursing homes have technology that allows X-rays to be carried out by a radiologist on-site rather than having to bring somebody to a hospital. We are looking to see what technology we could use within our Prison Service to reduce the requirement to bring prisoners to hospital. It is very costly. Every time we need to bring a prisoner to hospital, we need to take two or three staff out of that prison. As the Deputy referred to earlier, that can have an impact on services within the prison. In some cases, those services are only available within a hospital and particularly within an accident and emergency department but we have our own doctors, nurses and healthcare assistants at prison level. In my opening statement, I mentioned the training units. We have repurposed the training units in older prisons. We are doing a lot of proactive screening for things like prostate cancer and bowel cancer within the prisons. Within the training units, almost ten men have been identified as having issues we are now in a position to treat. The inreach model is a model-----

I will move on to prison accommodation.

The Deputy is over time.

Can I just ask-----

There will be a second round but the Deputy may ask a brief question.

There is now great pressure on accommodation. We also have to accept that the population of the country has increased by 40% and that there will therefore be more demand. Is there a programme within the Prison Service to develop additional facilities because of this pressure?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We have identified four major capital projects that would deliver more than 620 spaces for us over the coming years.

What kind of time period are we talking about for the delivery of those projects?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We are talking about delivery within the next five years. Some would come onstream earlier than others. In Castlerea, we are looking at building 25 six-bedroom houses on a phased basis, like a housing estate. Those would come onstream earlier. With regard to larger cellblock accommodation, we are building a new ring at Cloverhill Prison and Midlands Prison. Because of the size, scale and scope of those projects, they will take a little bit longer to deliver.

I will move to the temporary protection directive. It was triggered in March 2022 as result of the Ukraine war\s. In total, how many people have availed of its provisions since March 2022?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

To date, the figure is 104,000.

How many of them are still here?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I am not aware. We work with the Department of Social Protection and with IPAS. They would be much more aware. My colleague in the Department recently mentioned that 20% are no longer here.

They have returned to Ukraine.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is the belief.

There are a couple of issues that come up regarding people coming from Ukraine. One is the question of how we check to make sure they are coming from Ukraine. People are not checked individually. It is different from the normal international protection system, which involves in individual checks. In the case of Ukraine, I understand that there is no individual check.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There is. A person arriving into the airport and claiming protection under the temporary protection directive is brought to Citywest for processing and an interview before being granted temporary protection.

How is it checked that they are Ukrainian citizens?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The applicant is interviewed.

What evidence must be produced?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Applicants have to produce evidence of where they have been living and so on. It is quite detailed. We have quite a lot of Ukrainian temporary clerical officers in the operation. Our colleagues in the Department of Social Protection also benefit from that. They have the language and knowledge of the country. We have approximately 40 TCOs in that operation. It is very helpful to have that expert knowledge of the country.

What percentage fail that examination or test?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Roughly 2% fail.

What happens to that 2%?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

They are refused protection under the temporary protection directive. They may seek asylum. Some return.

Everybody who comes from Ukraine goes to Citywest.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Everybody goes to Citywest, yes.

Has that been the case since March 2022?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Initially, in March 2022, we had an operation in Dublin Airport for the first couple of months. We then moved to Citywest, which provided much more suitable accommodation and where we were able to put a much more sustainable operation in place. Everybody has been interviewed.

Would the 2% have returned immediately?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

No. They may seek international protection and are considered under that system.

We had to do the right thing as regards Ukraine and assisting people, particularly people from the eastern part of the country that was invaded by Russia and where a brutal war is being carried out. Some time ago, the Department gave a figure of 30% for the percentage of people who were moving from Ukraine to another EU state before arriving here. What was the percentage last year?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to come in on that.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Under the temporary protection directive, there is no restriction on people moving between member states. If they are entitled to obtain temporary protection in one EU member state, they may choose to move to another one.

That is one of the big differences from the ordinary international protection process.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Absolutely. It is a different regime.

What percentage was coming here in that way?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We carried out an exercise using the EU database last year. This database tracks registrations of people with temporary protection. The figure we put in the public domain at that stage was 30%. However, we attached a considerable health warning to that on the basis that the database was not necessarily designed to be used for such an analysis. The way in which data is entered could vary quite a lot from one member state to another. It is not a figure we rely on heavily but it is the figure we quoted when we did that exercise.

Some people working in the Department of Social Protection have told me that, with regard to that 30%, which is a very high figure, a lot of information is shared on social media networks. Has there been a falloff from that 30% since the announcement that social welfare rates are being cut from €238 to €38.80 per week?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We have not run that exercise again because, as I have said, we do not see it as methodologically solid. We do not use it to track the figure.

Has there been a marked falloff?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We can provide-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The number of Ukrainian people seeking temporary protection is down. The average over the past few weeks is 100 per week or less than that. It had been a lot higher. The total number for January 2024 was 1,452. In December, it was 3,700. There is a reduction but I cannot say what it is attributable to.

Does Ms McPhillips have the figure for January 2023?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I do not have it to hand but I will get it for the Cathaoirleach. I apologise; it was 2,571 in January 2023.

What was it in January of this year again?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It was 1,452.

There is a significant drop-off there. There is a three-year fix as regards temporary protection. People are entitled to access to social welfare, work, healthcare and education. Are there plans afoot? This will run out in March next year. What will happen then? Are moves afoot to end it at that time or will it depend on what is happening in Ukraine? It is only for Ukraine; is that correct? It is only in response to the Ukrainian situation.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It has only ever been triggered in respect of Ukraine. The directive was introduced in 2001.

That remains the case.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

What happens then? Are there plans afoot to end it at that point?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is under discussion at EU level at the moment. No decision has been taken. It is certainly a live discussion at meetings of the Justice and Home Affairs Council.

Is Ms McPhillips's Department feeding into that discussion?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes, as is the Minister.

What is the Department's view?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have an open mind on it. The situation in Ukraine is obviously still very fraught. We have an open mind and are entering into discussions with our EU partners in that vein at the moment.

I will move on to the issue of safe countries. Again, it is right that people who are fleeing war, persecution, famine and torture are given the opportunity to apply, receive a fair assessment and be treated properly.

A lot of members of the public were shocked to learn that only eight countries were deemed as safe countries and now there are ten. Botswana and Algeria have been added in recent weeks. The Department briefing helpfully sets out a summary of the criteria that are used in terms of how that is done. What thought or effort has been given to examining other countries? It is extraordinary. I found it unusual that there were only eight countries deemed safe and now there are ten.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

One of the considerations is that, obviously, we could designate a whole pile of the world safe-----

Yes, I know that. There are only a few designated.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

-----but most of them are not seeking international protection.

I understand that. It is only France, Germany and so on. I know that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to come in. We obviously had a number in place when the accelerated process was introduced. Botswana and Algeria have just recently been added. I can run the Cathaoirleach through the numbers if that is of interest. The numbers of applications from the top safe country volume, if you like, in 2022 was 3,402. The top safe country volume in 2023 was 1,766. It is, therefore, a very substantial reduction against 2022.

The specific question I am asking Ms McPhillips-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Is why not more?

-----is what is being done to assess other countries from where there may be a significant number of people coming that maybe there is a question mark over? I will preface that by saying-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have done a process on that.

Is that done on an ongoing basis?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes, absolutely.

There is co-operation with the European Commission and a European assessment is done. I see that some information has been given by the Department in terms of how that is done.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The European Union Agency for Asylum is very helpful in that regard.

With regard to countries that are deemed safe or unsafe, there are huge regional variations.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

In Ukraine, for example, there are huge regional variations. There are some people still travelling there. I am told some parts of Nigeria are very safe. I have never been there. Some parts of Nigeria are pretty unsafe. What thought has been given to examining in more detail the regions in countries that people do not know about? Ireland at one stage was not safe. The Six Counties were not safe. It is now, thank God.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan because he was very involved in this.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

It is an interesting question. Some member states are looking at the area of designating by regions.

Is Ireland one of them?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

No, not at the moment. Our legislation is founded on the notion that in countries-----

Some European states are looking at it.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We are starting to look at it, but very little of it has been done yet. It is such a fluid situation. Making that assessment could change very quickly with a regional conflict. Obviously, if we are going to designate a country as safe, we need to be happy we can stand over that.

The other point I would make is that even when designated as safe, people still have the full benefit of the interview and assessment process. We take into account the most recent country of origin information and it may show that X country was less safe last year but now the latest information is that things have actually improved. That means in the individual decision-----

For those countries that are deemed to be safe now, there is an accelerated process. In answer to a previous question, I think Mr. O'Sullivan said they are being processed in three months.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

It is in three months.

That is good because, obviously, the system is chockablock. There are 900 people at the moment for whom we do not have accommodation. We want to be able to accommodate those people who are coming from war torn areas or fleeing persecution. Obviously, however, if the system is not fine-tuned, streamlined, efficient and enforced, that will not happen and we will wind up with a glut in the system. What I am asking specifically is whether the Department's officials advise the Minister that we should join the efforts of other European countries to actively examine regions and countries, particularly very large countries that are several thousand kilometres across, that may be safe. If we look at some of those countries, there have been pockets of regional instability for years but the rest of the country is not affected.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We are probably getting into a policy area there and Government would have to form a view.

I know, but the Department gives advice to the Minister. Am I correct in saying that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes, with regard to the policy.

Of course it does. That is why I am asking Ms McPhillips.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I do not think I can comment on it ahead of Government forming a view on it.

That is all right. I can understand that. At official level, however, the Department is obviously in contact with officials in other European countries about all this and it is part of a giant effort in Europe.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

One of the countries people are looking at currently is Syria and whether regions there are safe. Most of us would have a view on that.

Okay. If we look at the 2022 figures, decisions were made on 4,496 people and 1,283 were granted status within the year, I take it. Some 69 people were granted subsidiary protection, 2,081 were granted permission to remain, 94 were deemed inadmissible and 869 were refused. Were those 869 deported?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We did not have 800 deportations, but we did have a number of various processes. I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to run through them.

I will put the question another way. Does the figure of those who were deported and the numbers that can be verified who left voluntarily match up? Do they give 869?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I do not think it would equate to 100%.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

No, I guess-----

What percentage does it give?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Coming back to the earlier discussion, we cannot say definitively if somebody has left the jurisdiction. However, all these cases are followed through from the refusal into the consideration of removal and the deportation order being made. We would expect to see those figures, and the increase in those decisions. We would expect to see a lot of deportations that were made this year on foot of the fact that-----

What percentage can Mr. O'Sullivan verify? What percentage of that 869 were refused? I am asking a very specific question in this regard. Certain people left voluntarily. Mr. O'Sullivan explained earlier that there is a voluntary scheme they can go under and that it can be enforced. What percentage of the 869 can be verified? We can take that year or any year. Generally, what is the percentage Mr. O'Sullivan cannot stand over and in those instances where he does not know what happened?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

It is not so much that we do not know what has happened. We-----

Is it 10% or 40%?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We made 857 deportation orders last year. We can definitively confirm around 80 of those as having-----

Mr. O'Sullivan might say those figures again.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

There were 857 deportation orders made last year. Some 213 people were voluntarily moved on top of that, and then there were 80 confirmed deportations.

There were 80. Those are people who left. That is over 500.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

The 213 are in addition to the 800, if you know what I mean. The 213 are not subject to a deportation order. They are in addition to people. They are people who have agreed to go home voluntarily.

There were more than 800, however.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

There were 800 deportation orders made. We can confirm deportations were effective in 80 cases. In the main, that is people who have been taken by gardaí and put on aeroplanes and brought to another country.

Okay. What happened with the 720?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

In the other instances, what we do then is that the gardaí have deportation orders for all those people. They check the most recent accommodation addresses for those people and try to enforce that order. In many cases, in fact, in most cases, when they got to that accommodation, the people are no longer there.

What happens then?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

As soon as we make a deportation order, that is a lasting order. If a person comes to the attention of the authorities or the Garda, in particular, down the road for some reason, in other words, if he or she has not left the jurisdiction, he or she can be arrested and taken into custody and removed at that point in time.

People obviously cannot claim social welfare or anything like that.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We obviously work with social welfare so-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

People's entitlements are-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We work with social welfare.

People can be arrested.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Absolutely. They can be arrested on threat of deportation.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The Garda runs operations from time to time.

What percentage of those people have been arrested?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

I do not have-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The Garda runs operations from time to time. That would be a matter for the Garda. I referred earlier to the fact that quite a lot of the negative decisions arise from the fact that the person has not been engaging with the international protection process at all. In other words, they have gone away. Their correspondence is not being responded to. The very reason for the decision in the first place may be that they are no longer here so when we go to execute the deportation order, we cannot because they are no longer here.

That is a significant portion.

Do the representatives have no way of knowing whether they are out of the State or not at that point?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We do not. As the Cathaoirleach will know, we do not have exit checks. We have a border, and we do not want it to be a hard one.

It is important for people to know that their deportation order is an ongoing system.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Absolutely, yes. It will remain on their record.

I acknowledge the work of the Department, which is dealing with a very difficult situation in trying to manage all that.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

We will suspend the meeting for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.19 a.m.

Obviously, there was a significant investment in staffing in the international protection area. It is self-evident that there is an increase in the processing times. There is going to be an investment in a major modernisation programme across the entire immigration function. Is that going to be exclusively for the Department of Justice or is it going to integrate with the Department of Social Protection? What will that process look like, what is the timeline and is it funded?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will ask Mr. Dixon to describe it.

Mr. Richard Dixon

A significant investment is being made in modernisation within the international protection operation and more broadly in immigration services. There are a number of key elements, one of which is having a single view of our customer. At the moment somebody who applies for-----

Can I stop Mr. Dixon there? I wish we did not use the word "customer". Can we use "client" or some other word? A customer is someone who goes into a shop.

Mr. Richard Dixon

Certainly. We need to have a single view of our client. At the moment someone who applies for a visa eventually becomes a citizen or engages in some other way. The person's information could be sitting on a number of different systems that do not necessarily talk to each other. At the end of the modernisation programme, the process will be paperless and speedy.

Who is going to be talking to whom? Who is going to see what? Very often there are silos. Is this going to get rid of those silos? Does it involve the Departments of Foreign Affairs, Justice and Social Protection or is it just the asylum process around the individual and where their paperwork is?

Mr. Richard Dixon

There are already data-sharing agreements, for instance, between the office that deals with citizenship and the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection. There are data-sharing agreements between the International Protection Office, IPO, and the International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS.

Will they be used in this modernisation system?

Mr. Richard Dixon

They will be used in this modernisation scheme. Consistent with the Government's approach to the appropriate use of data, we will have a single view of our client. That can be used in a way that best serves the State and the individual engaging with the State services.

It is funded and when will it be fully in place?

Mr. Richard Dixon

Across the immigration services, the modernisation programme has been running for the past year and a half. We will see the first elements of technology and change being introduced this year and the entirety of the programme being delivered over the next three to four years.

What is the staffing level now? It has been significantly increased so that the processing can be done more efficiently. Is it at full complement now or are there vacancies?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We are probably talking about two slightly different things. The overall staffing in immigration service delivery, as we call it, is just over 1,000 people. Some 400 of those are in the IPO.

That figure came from what?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The IPO had 199 staff at the end of 2022, so we doubled the figure in the course of last year.

Are there plans to expand further, or is that sufficient?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There is an amount of churn in the system. People get promoted, retire and have life events so we are always running to keep pace. Just because we have 400 today does not mean we will have 400 tomorrow, so we have to keep recruiting in order to maintain the numbers. Our aim is to get to a complement of 480 staff in the IPO during the course of this year.

I want to ask about Algeria. If I was thinking of going on holiday to Algeria and I went on the website of the Department of Foreign Affairs, I would see the warning advising me not to visit particular parts of the country because of problems with terrorism and kidnappings. What engagement is there between the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Justice regarding the decision-making?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have quite a lot of engagement with colleagues on the assessment.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We consulted a range of bodies, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, for that assessment. The important point is that just because we have defined a country as "safe" does not mean that people do not get a full interview. We expect that people from Algeria seeking asylum will get refugee status in the same way as people from other "safe" countries of origin already get refugee status if they can show that the general assessment does not apply to their own personal circumstances. That is very clear and we can see that in the statistics.

I want to go back to issues in the prison service . My understanding is that this week there were 71 women in the upgraded prison in Limerick which only contains 56 beds. What is the overcrowding situation and where will the pinch points be in advance of some of the additional services coming on stream?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

Prison numbers have been increasing since 2018, after a period of reducing numbers from 2011. That was interrupted by Covid, but since we have come out fully from all the Covid measures, particularly in the courts, we are seeing a sustained increase in the number of people in our custody. During last year, we operated above 100% of our bed capacity for the whole year. Today there are 4,805 prisoners in custody so we are operating at a bed capacity of 107%. The Deputy is right to say that there is significant overcrowding in the female prison population. This population has seen a significant increase. We are at 127% of capacity in the new female prison. However, I would stress that the new female prison is an exceptional facility. It is bright and airy and has great facilities and women are being accommodated not on mattresses on the floor, but on camp beds.

Traditionally and now women make up a lower number of the prison population. That obviously has increased. Has any analysis been done on this? We have been given some information as to why there has been an increase in the prison population because of increased court capacity and things like that. Is that likely to have been a catch-up or is there an expectation that it will increase further?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

Part of it is certainly as a result of the backlogs in the court services because of Covid. These are washing out through the system now. Part of it is around the assignment of additional judges and an increase in the number of court sittings. It is the case that we may see increasing numbers over the coming years. As I mentioned, we have introduced more than 200 new spaces in the last 18 months. Subject to the availability of resources, we have plans this year to introduce an additional 70 spaces. Across those four projects we want to ensure that we have additional capacity to meet a growing demand for prison spaces.

Okay. Prison has a number of functions, including protecting the population, but it is also for rehabilitation. That has to be a central plank of the system. Are there people in prison, swelling the numbers, who are there for things like non-payment of a debt and those kinds of offences?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

This tends to be more of a feature among the women prisoners.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

Yes, but they tend to be very small numbers. On any given day we might have one person in for non-payment of a fine. We judiciously use temporary release to manage overcrowding. We have some very successful programmes providing support to people who are released early into the community. We have community support for people serving shorter sentences and there is community return under probation supervision for people sending serving longer sentences. When people are transitioning back out from our service, there are supports available to them in the community. We know that the more supports people have available to them when they leave prison, the less likely they are to commit another offence

We have been talking about the whole Prison Service, the fact that we have increasing numbers in prison and the process when people are discharged from prison.

Have we enough connection between the various support agencies once a person is discharged from prison? We are talking about costs and this committee is dealing with public accounts and the cost to the State. Could we be doing a far better job when people are discharged from prison so they have the necessary support? I go back to a project I was involved with in Cork for a number of years. Where young people got into minor difficulties with the Garda, gardaí referred them to a training centre at a very early stage, and we would then help to give them a skill so they could go on and get a job. Have we done enough in that whole area for people who are physically in prison and are then discharged from prison? There are a lot of jobs they cannot go for. Should we be focusing not only on jobs but also on accommodation when they are discharged, especially now, when accommodation is so difficult for them to get?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The Deputy makes a valid point. Historically, the Prison Service would have seen its role ending when somebody left our custody but, in recent years, we have seen that we have a very important role to play to ensure that when people leave our custody, they have supports in place in the community because we know support is vital to them in terms of not reoffending within the first few months of their exit. We currently arrange to make sure that somebody has a medical card if they are entitled to one, and they get that medical card before they leave custody. We ensure that everybody has access to a social welfare payment and that they know where to go to collect that on the day of their release. We have stopped releasing people on a Friday and over weekends to make sure they can access public services when they are released from our custody. In terms of housing, we have integrated sentence management, ISM, officers who spend a lot of time filling in social housing applications for prisoners who are leaving our custody. However, housing is a very significant challenge within the community.

Is the Probation Service getting enough support to be able to give help because there is huge demand on its services as well?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We have a great working relationship with the Probation Service and we have many probation staff embedded within the Prison Service. A significant number of prisoners will go out with a post-release supervision order so they have that stability and supervision by the Probation Service.

If we take the number who are in prison at the moment, what percentage are in there for the second or third time? What is the total number currently in prison?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

Just over 4,800.

Of that 4,800, what percentage-----

Ms Caron McCaffrey

What percentage have never committed a previous offence? I would say it is very small. Many people, when they get their first custodial sentence, would have had the benefit of probation and other interventions before a judge made a decision to enforce a custodial sentence, so the significant majority of people who are in custody would not be there for their first offence and might have had previous offences.

Have we done an analysis of that?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We have a figure but I am afraid I do not have it with me. We will follow up in that regard.

Are we talking about 50% or 60%?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We are talking about an absolute minority who would be in for a first offence and quite a significant number of the population would have been in prison on at least one or more occasions historically. We have a lot of prisoners-----

Does that not prove the point that the prison system is not working, or while it is working in that the people are in custody, it is not working with regard to trying to make sure there is not a cost to the taxpayer into the future?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

I would argue it is not the Prison Service. While somebody is in our custody, they have access to a full range of services within the prisons and they have all of their needs met in a holistic manner.

It is the connectivity that is lacking.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The difficulty is that a lot of people in our custody have significant addiction issues and mental health issues, and while they might get treatment during a custodial sentence, they live very chaotic lives on the outside and accessing public services would be a difficulty. From a Prison Service perspective, the longer somebody is with us, the more we can work with them to ensure we address the underlying issues that are giving rise to them coming into contact with the criminal justice system in the first place. We have a great psychology service and our work training and education are very important. More recently, in May last year, an education task force was established. One of the things we are specifically looking at is increasing the level of educational qualifications that we give to prisoners in custody, but also making the transition from education in prison to the community. We are also looking at providing apprenticeships within a prison setting in order that we would be in a position to give people an apprenticeship, and when they go out, they would have access to high-paid, good quality employment. We know that having access to employment is a key factor in terms of not returning to custody.

What is the number of people aged under 18 in prison?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The Prison Service no longer has any responsibility for children. They are detained in Oberstown, which is the responsibility of the Department of children, not the Irish Prison Service.

The Prison Service does not have any-----

Ms Caron McCaffrey

No, we have no children.

Obviously, there are people who will have served time in Oberstown and then end up in the prison system. There is a need for connectivity. The smaller the number of people from Oberstown who end up coming back into the prison system, the better.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We have an excellent working relationship with Oberstown. There is a group that meets to ensure there is a seamless transition of a young person, when they reach 18, from Oberstown into the Irish Prison Service. That happens on a regular basis but there are arrangements in place to make that transition.

Does Ms McCaffrey accept that between Oberstown, which comes under a different Department, and other Departments, there needs to be more joined-up thinking about how to work with people who are discharged from prison?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

We have quite a lot of engagement with the Department of housing, for example, to see if there is something different we can do. We know that where somebody leaves custody and goes out to night-to-night hostel accommodation, that does not give them the stability they need to ensure they do not commit further offences. On the women's side, we have a number of facilities where people can transition from custody into supported housing, and the Outlook programme is one such programme. We have been engaging with the Department of housing and the Probation Service to see if there is something different we could do in the context of the availability of housing. We have the Housing First initiative, so there are a certain number of tenancies available to people who are homeless, and that has been quite successful. A number of people have gone out and not just got a tenancy but also the wraparound services they need in the community to be able to function and to help them with their addiction or mental health issues.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will come in on this point. Ms McCaffrey is right that the Prison Service does amazing work above and beyond the custodial piece. I agree with the Deputy about the whole-of-government approach, which has informed our work around community safety, and I agree it applies equally to those leaving prison. I will bring in Mr. O'Callaghan shortly because he has chaired a group across government that has been looking at this issue. He took over from Ruth Barrington, who did great work on this over a few years. There is a lot of inter-agency work, although I agree we could do more. I work very closely with my colleague in the HSE, Mr. Gloster, who was before the committee last week. He is very open and tuned in to the needs, and many of the people in prison have very complex and multiple needs. There is a lot on that.

The Deputy mentioned the Probation Service. We have increased the funding to the Probation Service for staffing and also for services to prisoners. We fund things like Cuan Mhuire, where people access services and treatment from the Probation Service post prison. There is a lot of work on that.

Mr. O'Callaghan might want to comment further on the whole-of-government effort.

Mr. John O'Callaghan

There is an inter-agency group that was established a number of years ago. It was initially chaired by Ruth Barrington and I now chair it. That group brings together all the agencies involved in supporting offenders back into the community, for example in the areas of health, education, employment and so on, and a lot of community groups. Their focus is on looking at where the gaps are in the system and trying to plug those to ensure that people, when they move out of prison, move into more stable, secure environments and can get back into employment, education, training or otherwise. That work is ongoing. Obviously, it is challenging and difficult for the reasons the DG, Ms McCaffrey, mentioned. Many people have addiction and mental health issues, so the health and accommodation supports for them are challenging. There is a whole-of-government approach to that which, as I said, is trying to plug the gaps and make sure people can have as smooth a transition as possible, and also a more fruitful existence after the transition out of imprisonment.

I will pick up where we left off. I wanted to ask earlier about recidivism rates. To have any prisoner find himself back in prison is a failure in terms of how we are setting up our Prison Service, or perhaps not our Prison Service but all of society. There are a number of reasons to choose to incarcerate somebody, such as punishment or the safety of wider society, but we need to have a real and honest focus on the rehabilitation piece. We can approach that from the political perspective of wanting to better people and improve their lives, or we can approach it from the very hard-nosed economic point of view that it is very expensive to keep people in prisons.

If someone is in prison, we have an opportunity - for example, I spoke about educational psychologists and addressing such things as learning difficulties - to try our best to ensure that person does not come back to prison. What are the recidivism rates and where do we sit in an international context?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

From a Prison Service perspective, all our services are tailored to try to target the factors that gave rise to a person's offending behaviour in the first place. In many cases, they are addiction and drug use. People may come into contact with the criminal justice system because of their addiction, they may be stealing because of that addiction or they may be engaging in public order offences. We have comprehensive addiction services in the Prison Service and we are currently building on them. We are looking at developing a peer-led recovery model so that people are not reliant on a drugs counsellor who comes in once a week. We would have peers in the community who can support people in their recovery. Dealing with people's addiction while they are in custody gives them the greatest opportunity when they leave to live a law-abiding life, so much of our focus is on that.

There are significant mental health issues among the cohort of people who are committed to prisons. There are much higher levels of intellectual disabilities and personality disorders than would be seen in the general community. People who have personality disorders suffer from emotional disregulation so they are not in a position to manage their emotions. Our psychology service does a lot of work helping people, giving them treatment programmes to develop skills so that they are in a position to be able to manage that when they leave.

Our recidivism figures have been reducing. We have seen a reduction of almost 7% since 2011. The three year re-offending rate for men is 61.4% and for women it is 65.6%. There is a divergence as regards age. One of the most important factors in recidivism is someone's 40th birthday. As people get older they are less likely to commit crime and tend to settle down. The recidivism rate for people over 50 is 27%, but the recidivism rate for people who are 21 is 83.6%, so we see younger people who engage in addictive behaviour in the community, who do not have stability or employment. Our psychology service particularly targets those younger people. I will ask our director of care and rehabilitation who is our former head of psychology to talk about what we do with 18- to 21-year-olds when they come into custody to ensure we can give them the most support we can.

Dr. Emma Regan

Those 18- to 24-year-olds have been a particular focus for us in the psychology service, that is people who are serving a sentence of one year or more and do not have compulsory supervision orders to support them in the community. They are the people who drop off once they have served their sentence. They meet one of the 14 assistant psychologists in the prison system very quickly to build an understanding of why they have come into custody. Often when we first meet them they do not have any understanding of that. They cannot join the dots of what has happened to them throughout their lives so we focus on that to develop a bespoke sentence plan for each person. Much of the feedback from international reports on young people is that they need a bespoke sentence plan while they are in custody. That is what the assistant psychologist does with young people. They carry that sentence plan around with them for the rest of their sentence. It targets the key areas as necessary, whether it be addiction or mental health, and they get ongoing support on a monthly basis from the assistant psychologist to keep them on track.

We are at 81% and they are such young lives. The more resources we put into that, the better. It can be approached from whatever perspective. It is fantastic value for money to use a very simplistic metric, but it is possible to make a significant impact on a life.

There is another issue I want to raise.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Can I add something? I can correspond with the Chair if that is preferred. I know the diversion from prison in the first place and dealing with offenders without imprisoning them is an area of interest to the Chair. The Probation Service does amazing work in this space. It dealt with 16,989 offenders in the community in 2023. I do not have the recidivism rate for probation to hand, but it is considerably lower than for those who have been imprisoned, as one would expect.

I want to raise a specific issue. This committee heard private testimony from a whistleblower in the Prison Service in late 2018 and officials from the Prison Service appeared before the Committee on Public Accounts in early 2019 - it was before I was a member of the committee - to answer the issues raised. The Department of Justice then commissioned an investigative report in October 2019 which put the cost of corruption identified at more than €20 million. I do not want to explore the specifics of the case further. Are the Department of Justice and the Prison Service now content that adequate safeguards are in place to prevent the misuse or misappropriation of prisoner labour or prison materials?

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The Deputy will appreciate that I am not in a position to comment on any protected disclosure.

That is why I asked a generalised question.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

I can certainly say that robust arrangements are in place from a fraud and anti-corruption perspective. In 2023, we introduced a fraud and anti-corruption policy. We have also established a fraud committee to which people can make disclosures in respect of any fraud they believe might be occurring in the organisations and they are robustly investigated by the fraud committee which is chaired by our head of risk assurance and compliance. In 2023, eight issues were sent to that committee for investigation so it is certainly an area of concern. There are a lot of controls in place and where we identify there may be an issue, it is robustly investigated to see whether additional controls need to be put in place or a disciplinary action needs to be taken in respect of an individual.

I have a final succinct question about the naturalisation process for minors. It is taking ages. Adults are getting through the naturalisation process and it is taking longer for some of their children.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

A significant improvement is expected in that.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Yes, we are conscious of the issue of naturalising minors. We did a lot of work last year to clear a backlog of that, processing approximately 5,500 cases for minors. The current processing time is approximately nine months. Our objective is to get it down to six months. As the Deputy said, the decisions should be straightforward so we are keen to ensure they are dealt with as quickly as possible. It is a particular focus.

I will revert to the processing of applications for a moment. In 2019, before the Covid-19 pandemic, 3,434 decisions were made. In 2022, it rose to 4,988. In 2023, 9,000 decisions were made. If you look at the numbers that are applying, 92% of cases decided in 2022 were processed within three years so 8% are taking longer than three years which is an extraordinary length of time; 62% of cases decided in 2022 were decided within two years or less, which means that 38% or four in every ten cases took more than two years. It seems to be an extraordinary length of time. I know that sometimes it may hinge on a judicial decision because something else is happening in the courts in tandem. What is the Department's target for reducing the time? We need to free up space. I presume many of those people are in direct provision. Some of them will be successful applicants and are homeless. How is the Department removing the blocks in the system? It is not the best term to use. Four of every ten cases takes longer than two years.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The Chair is absolutely right. We are conscious of the pressure on accommodation and the issues that arise from that. The median processing time was reduced from 18 months in 2022. The cases decided in 2022 were much older. That is reflected in the grant rate as when people have been here a long time, their lives get a bit more complicated and they may be more likely to be granted citizenship. In 2023, it took 13 months, which is a reasonable period, but we want to get it-----

The Department's brief says it was 15 months. I have it in front of me.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It was 18 months.

It was 18 months in 2022, but the median time was down to 15 months in 2023 according to the brief.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

My brief says 13 months now so I apologise. I will get the correct figure for the committee. The focus is on the accelerated cases, where we are achieving a much shorter period, but we want to balance that across the whole piece so we need to do both.

What is the target, which is the specific question I am asking you?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The target?

Is there a target to reduce that further - that median time?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Sorry. Our target is output, so we increased the decision-making to 1,000 per month in 2023.

Sorry, the target is?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The target for this year is 1,400 per month.

Okay, 1,400 per month. I refer to the median time for processing applications. I presume that is from beginning to end.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

What we are trying to do is concentrate on the output because that brings down the median time. The target relates to decisions made. As the Chair said, we do not have complete control over the length of time because people may need a judicial review and so on.

What I am trying to understand is if this is beginning to end median time? I understand some of it will be very long, and some very short but are we talking about-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is the beginning to the end of the first-instance decision, the IPO decision.

That is before you go to any appeal?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes, and then we have targets regarding appeals as well.

The Department has a target that was five months in 2023. That was the figure it gave - the median processing time for appeals. It was down from 15 months at the start of 2022 to five months in 2023. That is what the briefing note says. Is that correct?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes. To maintain a five-month appeal rate would be very successful I think.

I know it is the median but it is an extraordinary length of time. How many are over three years? The figure that is given is that 92% of cases are decided-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

In less than three years, so 8%.

-----in less than three years. What does the 8% represent? Are we talking about around 1,000?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Mr. Dixon is my numbers man.

Mr. Richard Dixon

We have 48 cases that were initially opened prior to 2015. As I mentioned earlier to Deputy Murphy, when cases are that old, there tends to be some significant challenges.

There are over 40 cases that are going on nine years old now.

Mr. Richard Dixon

Eight or nine years old, yes, and another 750 that are between three and eight years old. The remainder are applications that have been made in the last two years.

So 48 are nine years old.

Mr. Richard Dixon

Yes.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

However, the overall cases on that-----

Sorry, I just want to dwell on this for a second. What is the main problem there?

Mr. Richard Dixon

It might be judicial reviews-----

It is an executive area.

Mr. Richard Dixon

-----or it could be an elongated appeal process. There are tools available to us if someone is not engaging with the system. We deem them non-co-operative and their application is paused.

With regard to some of those 48 cases, would it be the case that there are some of those who are unco-operative?

Mr. Richard Dixon

No. If people are not co-operating, they are designated as such and put to one side. If there is no engagement, we will push them through and make a decision based on the information that they have given to us. If they have not given any information, we make the decision based on the lack of information.

The 48 cases are in direct provision, and they have not had a first decision yet. These have not even gone near appeal yet.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We are obviously looking very closely at that group of cases because they stand out.

That is right. That is my next question. What is being done?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

When you look at the individual cases, there tends be to something quite unusual in the case. The one that stood out most for me was that we had a child who applied in her own right. Her parents had been granted status but had not maintained any contact with us and were not in IPAS. Clearly, this child had a valid application but we cannot conclude it, so we need to find some way to conclude it validly. However, there is no suggestion that they are sitting around waiting in IPAS and not being dealt with.

Are those 48 being actively examined to see how they-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

Absolutely.

That is an extraordinary level-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

It absolutely stands out, so-----

I think any reasonable person would say that it is nine years, and the first decision has not been made yet, so you should have the information to show that either they may have an entitlement to it or they have not got it.

Mr. Richard Dixon

Agreed. As my colleague Mr. O'Sullivan said, there is invariably a legal complication. With regard to the case that he mentioned, we are unable to talk to the child's parents, and there is nobody else-----

That is one case.

Mr. Richard Dixon

-----who has the legal rights to engage with us on the child's behalf.

How many are over five years waiting for a first decision?

Mr. Richard Dixon

There are 500.

So there are 500 in the system waiting over five years?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Out of 19,000.

Okay. It is still an extraordinary length of time.

Mr. Richard Dixon

It is an extraordinary length of time and we have a group of people who are working on reducing that number. That number goes down every week. I would say that in a process that is taking 12, 13 or 14 months, and for somebody to be in the system five years, there are complications.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There are reasons for it.

What are the typical three or four issues that are pertaining to those cases? Would it be a case of having to verify the situation in which they left in their country of origin, or what is it? I am trying to understand why a case would take more than five years, never mind nine years.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

My expectation is that when we complete the piece of work that Mr. Dixon is referring to, we will get that number down quite a lot. I guess we are deploying resources on different priorities-----

Is that the 48 or the 500?

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

It is the 500. With regard to the older cases, we have no interest in having cases hanging around.

I understand that.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

However, we are obviously deploying resources to the accelerated cases, to try to keep them moving, or the ordinary cases, you might say. Then we have these unusual cases that are hanging around for longer periods of time. We have a team looking at that. Some of that will involve trying to find an address for them, or trying to find if they have legal representation. In many cases we will come to the point where we say that this person is deemed not to be co-operating, and we take a final decision.

In a system that is under huge pressure, where people are trying to manage and do their best, those figures are absolutely extraordinary. What is the longest-----

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

My expectation - and I would be very surprised if it was otherwise - is that unless there is somebody in a long legal challenge, those people are not here in the main, and are not in IPAS accommodation.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We just have to establish that.

They are not in IPAS accommodation.

Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan

We have an open case that we cannot simply arbitrarily close. We need to go through a process and work on closing it.

What is the longest period of time that somebody is in direct provision?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We do not have the direct provision figures because all of our people are not necessarily in direct provision. As was said several times, they are not necessarily here but they do not have to be in direct provision. It is not a compulsory estate.

Could Ms McPhillips explain this for our benefit? If your case is processed and you fail, you can appeal then to the appeals tribunal. Is it one appeal you have a chance with?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

If you fail that then, it has to be the court?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There are two other processes that the Minister can consider. They are done with relative dispatch as well. They are done quite quickly at the moment.

What are those processes?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

They are section 3 - I cannot remember the name of it - subsidiary protection, and humanitarian protection. They are just other categories under the Act but they are not fresh applications. They are just considerations that are given to the thing at the end of the process.

Appeals were down to five months in 2023.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes. Five and a half months.

Okay. I want to ask about the numbers in the system not processed at the moment. Does Ms McPhillips have a ballpark figure for that? I know it will be a combination of a number of figures.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The total number on hand in the IPO is roughly 19,000 cases.

That is a huge number.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There were 13,500 applications in 2023.

Has the Department got adequate staff to deal with that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have doubled the staff. There are over 400 staff at the moment. The ambition is to get to 480 staff this year. We have also increased the panel numbers as well, so the contractors on panels who also assist us in doing the interviews and initial assessments has increased quite considerably this year as well.

The Department has in the region of 400 at the moment, is that right?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is 420, I think. Around 400 staff, sorry.

What is the target again?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is 480, and that is up from 199 at the end of 2022.

I see that. It was 143 in 2019.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

I see those figures in the notes. What timescale has been set to try to get it up to 480?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

In the course of 2024, so this year.

Will those positions mainly be deployed to clear some of the backlogs in the system that we have just spoken about?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes. I should say that-----

Will the majority of those extra people brought in be working on dealing-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

With that 19,000, yes.

Will they be particularly dealing with some of the ones that are over-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

All of those staff are working on that backlog.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I want to acknowledge that the co-operation between the Public Appointments Service and the Department over the past 12 months has been absolutely phenomenal. Sometimes PAS gets blamed for delays and so forth but we have got an amazing service in recruiting over the past 12 months.

Are people in the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform holding it up?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

No.

It is good to hear that. Obviously, a huge burden is put on the system if an organisation is short-staffed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There is a very hot employment market. The public service is not the most competitive, with due respect to the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, but the Public Appointments Service has given us priority in this, and IPAS, I gather.

Mr. Richard Dixon

Could I clarify a point the Cathaoirleach made? There is a requirement in the legislation that if somebody is not co-operating with the international protection system, we have to write to them. In the instances where we do not have an address, we engage with the person’s legal representatives, if he or she has any. We double-check that such individuals are not in IPAS accommodation and we try to discover addresses. While I do not have the number to hand, a significant number of the older cases involve people we have deemed to be not co-operating or engaging with us. However, legally, until we can confirm we have written to them, we cannot allocate that heading to their applications.

But the Department could be writing to an address that is three or four years old, or more.

Mr. Richard Dixon

When the communication letters come back, we then engage with the Department of Social Protection, IPAS and others to see if there is any way in which to communicate with the individuals. As my colleague, Mr. O’Sullivan, said, they are probably no longer in the State, but until we are satisfied in this regard, we have to keep them on the books.

Is the Garda engaging where somebody does not co-operate or is absent?

Mr. Richard Dixon

No, it would not be a criminal issue. It is just a requirement under the legislation, so we would not involve the Garda. However, we do of course speak to other elements of the State. We talk to the Department of Social Protection and-----

Are significant numbers not co-operating?

Mr. Richard Dixon

I will follow up with the exact numbers. I will get an update. I do not have the numbers in front of me.

Are there hundreds?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is a few hundred.

Mr. Richard Dixon

I would imagine so.

A few hundred not co-operating.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

These cases are not being ignored. They are not sitting in a dark corridor; they are being actively worked on, and we expect to make significant progress on that this year as well.

It seems to me that the legislation does not require a client to keep the information up-to-date.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It does. It is a basis for refusal but we do need to have an address to write to people.

Okay. I want to ask a few more questions. Recently, a number of people, including children, arrived in the country, at Wexford, in a container. They disappeared within a very short period. They may well have thought they were going to the UK. It is unusual. How would the Department follow up on that?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The individuals were brought by the gardaí to the IPO in order to make their applications, and then brought to IPAS accommodation. As we probably discussed in the past, my understanding of IPAS accommodation is that it is not compulsory. People are not detained. The individuals dispersed and made their way to other places.

Outside the jurisdiction.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is my understanding.

Is there a current value for Thorton Hall? What agencies is the Department-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

There is a valuation in the accounts. It was done in 2021. I think it is about €6.5 million. I believe the plan is to do another valuation in 2025. It is done from time to time.

Is the Department engaging with agencies?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have engaged with all the agencies. Over the years we have engaged with Fingal County Council, IDA Ireland, the LDA-----

Is there any development likely?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have conversations from time to time with the LDA. It certainly has an interest in the site, perhaps for decanting, but it has not crystallised its intent yet. We have also talked to the OPW and IPAS in terms of the current issues.

With regard to Walter Scott House, which is a smaller facility than the one that was at Harcourt Square, things have changed owing to remote working, and hot desks and the like are far more prevalent than before the pandemic. Are there residual costs for Walter Scott House in relation to carparking?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is not in my Vote. It is within the Garda Vote. The Garda and OPW manage that aspect.

I will ask a parliamentary question on that, so.

On the coroner service, we passed legislation last night. I am not sure whether it has gone through the Seanad but the Dáil certainly passed Final Stage. What happens in this regard in terms of the regulatory impact assessment and requirements for additional staff? There are delays in the coroner courts. They really do affect people because they elongate the grieving process. Is the legislation likely to have a positive impact if the resources are made available?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

My understanding of that legislation is that it is regularising a piece that was implemented during Covid, and that is why there was a time element to it. We have given additional resources. The Dublin coroner service is the one that comes under the Department. The other coroner services or offices around the country are under the local authorities. In Dublin, we have increased the resources and worked with those concerned on change management, data and so forth. I totally agree with the Deputy that the service is an absolutely critical public service. Given people are at their most vulnerable when bereaved, it is really important for us to make improvements to the service. We are working very hard on that in conjunction with Dublin District Coroner’s Office.

It is very expensive to keep somebody in prison. If we are to look at it from a financial point of view, apart from the personal impact on prisoners and ex-prisoners, it amounts to €88,000 per annum. Dr. Regan has described what happens and the targeting of particular prisons. One can say that this is really quite strategic. Would the witnesses say there is more support for a prisoner in prison rather than out of prison, or is there a follow-through? Is there a policy shortcoming in this regard?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I am obviously not across everything that happens in the wider service, but in terms of education, on which Ms McCaffrey is always very interesting, we often find prison can be the first opportunity people have to engage with the education system, sit in a class and so forth. It is not that other services are not doing their best – I am sure they are – but people do fall out of the system. I see Dr. Regan is nodding as I say this. Prison is not a second chance for many people but, as Ms McCaffrey states, a first chance.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The benefit of having somebody in a custodial setting is that all the services he or she requires are in one place. There is healthcare, dentistry, psychology, psychiatry, drug treatment, education and work training. The whole gamut of services required to live a really good life is available. The difficulty is that because people have addictions and mental health issues, they can find it quite difficult to navigate the services in the community when released.

Dr. Emma Regan

Could I give an example that we find particularly noteworthy at the moment? It relates to the number of people being diagnosed with autism in custody. It is not that the services are not available in the community but that the individuals were, as children, living very chaotic and complex lives and therefore falling through the gaps in getting the appropriate diagnosis and services. This may be because their mums or dads were not able to bring them to the appointments they should have been attending in CAMHS, for example-----

CAMHS will not look at people with autism.

Dr. Emma Regan

-----or wherever they might have gone for the diagnosis.

Clinicians meet people in custody, where the boundaries and support are available. Clinicians are quite literally at their door. That is when the diagnosis is done and complex needs are picked up in order to put services in place in custody and later out in the community.

It is quite useful to have it said that all the services are in one place at the first point of engagement. We are acutely aware of the inadequacy of services in the community in terms of children, disability and mental health issues.

We can see where it is going. If we do not spend the money there, we spend it later on, and possibly on multiple occasions if people end up in prison repeatedly.

Ms Caron McCaffrey

The Deputy might be interested to hear that in regard to education, the average school-leaving age of everybody in custody is 14, so if a child has disengaged from the education sector one can see why he or she might become involved in criminality. Quite a lot of work is being done for those children within the youth justice area and bilaterally with the Department of Education.

The Department obviously does some work with the HSE on medical facilities within prisons. We heard about that earlier. I refer to the children's disability network teams. From what I have seen, some of the most dedicated parents have huge challenges and have ended up in hospital following attacks. It is more of a brass plate than it is anything else. The silo based on some of these things may be a contributory factor to the increasing prison population and not addressing some of the issues earlier. I agree that the Department of Education should be involved, but with what other services does the Department have that kind of engagement?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We engage with the HSE on a daily basis, both at local level and at a strategic leadership level as well. If I had to pick one of the State agencies, that is the one with which we have the most contact in relation to the offender cohort generally.

I have met the most dedicated parents who cannot control a child who has a very significant disability. In one case the Garda have been called more than 20 times in the same year. The real-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

As Dr. Regan said, there are children who have parental support and there may be others who do not have that kind of family support at all and they have to organise themselves to access help. It is just not possible.

It is so important that the Department of Justice talks to people working on other areas of policy because otherwise we are just going to go around in circles on this.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Colleagues across the Government are very conscious of this issue.

I will just revert to the figures in terms of decisions. In 2022, some 10,217 decisions were outstanding from a total of 13,651 applications. In 2023 there was an improvement in that there were 13,227 applications-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

They are not the same cases.

-----and 4,207 were not-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

They are not made in respect of the same year. Obviously there is a lag.

Some 4,207 cases were not processed.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

No, what I am saying is that the applications received in a year is not the same as the applications dealt with in that year. I spoke earlier about the capacity to make decisions per month. What we are trying to do is build up to a situation where we have the capacity to make more decisions than the number of applications coming in. We are getting to that point now, and we are dealing with the backlog.

Out of that nearly 27,000 applications, a decision was not made on more than 14,400 cases by the end of the year. Ms McPhillips confirmed that to us. There are more than 19,000 cases in the system awaiting a decision.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

I am just trying to understand the figures. Obviously it is a huge number. The year 2022 seemed to be very disappointing from the point of view that in the majority of cases, 10,000 out of 13,600, a decision was not made on them.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We were ramping up in the course of 2022. As I said earlier, we had 199 staff at the end of 2022. By the end of 2023, we had 400 odd, which was a doubling of staff.

I would also emphasise to the Deputy that it is not just a question of staffing, there has been an amount of change. Other Deputies asked me if I am satisfied that everything is being done. I am satisfied that we are doing an awful lot. We will continue to do an enormous amount of squeezing of the system to-----

Is a concerted effort being made to deal with some of those long cases?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

A huge amount of effort is being made. I must pay tribute to the staff as well because the rate of increase is far more than the doubling of staff. We trebled the decision-making capacity over the course of that year. That is done through the change management process re-engineering and the technology as well.

There is an interesting statistic about how much the processing time reduced when we took paper out of the system. That is simply a function of people carrying around paper, photocopying paper, and scanning paper. When you take paper out of the system it makes a huge difference to the processing rates.

Could Ms McPhillips just briefly touch on the airlines? There are provisions whereby they can be fined if their ground staff do not carry out the required checks. How many fines were handed out to airlines in 2022 and 2023?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I will just get the figures for the Deputy.

In other words, they were carrying people without sufficient checks being made to documentation at the point of departure from whatever country they were coming from.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

In 2022 there were 958 fines issued by the Garda, obviously, not ourselves. In 2023 the number was 918.

Are those the fines issued to airlines? That is an extraordinarily high number – more than 900 each year.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes, in both years. As was said earlier, we work very closely and well with the airlines. We get a lot of co-operation. We have got a lot of co-operation in terms of training programmes and so forth. That is going very well.

It is a very high number – nearly 1,000 fines a year - being handed out to airlines. Do I take it that there is a fine for each individual case? Is that why the numbers are so high? Nearly 1,000 fines a year are handed out. My understanding is that the maximum-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes, that is out of 16 million passengers.

I know. Is it correct that the maximum fine is €1,500?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is right.

Is that enough?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

The base level is €1,500 and it rises to €3,000 if it is not paid within 28 days, so it gets more punitive.

Is it normally paid within 28 days?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I do not know because the gardaí hand out the fines and the gardaí get the payments as well.

Is the level of fines adequate?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We keep it under review. It is under review at the moment. We keep an open mind on it.

Does Ms McPhillips think it is adequate?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

As I say, it is subject to a review at the moment. I will come back to the Chair on it.

Do I take it that there is a group of civil servants in the Department looking at it?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

It is not a group but there are a couple of people looking at it.

Is there a civil servant looking at it?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

Is the process due to conclude soon?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes. The Minister is anxious for the review to be completed.

There is a large number involved.

I have a question on restorative justice. Ms McPhillips knew I was going to ask her this. Ms McCaffrey has outlined the position. My memory of it is that back in the late 1980s there were approximately 2,500 prisoners. We had a smaller population. There were a lot of people in prison connected with the conflict in the North and conflict-related issues. Now the prison population is 4,800 and provision is being made for an extra 680 places. We have a big prison population and it is a huge job to deal with it. Ms McCaffrey has a sizeable task in trying to accommodate all of the prisoners and in overseeing the running of the prisons. We know that restorative justice works. Apart from a few token attempts at it, we are not really doing much of it in the State.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

No, I do not agree with that. We published a policy paper in 2023 about this whole area, and that affirmed the role of the Probation Service in leading in this area and driving developments. What we are trying to do is mainstream the principles of restorative justice into all the work done by the Probation Service. It does a huge amount of work in this area. I know that the Chair is well familiar with some specific projects. We have been funding the Probation Service as well in respect of specific posts in the regions in order to develop more capacity around restorative justice regionally because obviously it has to be done at local level to be effective.

Could we maximise it? When we read the court notices in the local newspapers the reference is always to a fine or custodial sentence being given.

With restorative justice the victim gets recompense, there is a higher level of correction and rehabilitation for the perpetrator in terms of moving away from-----

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I totally agree.

Figures available internationally show that. Ms McCaffrey has confirmed that the average annual cost per prisoner across the estate, so not high-security prisoners, is €88,000. That is a large bill.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We have assigned funding-----

The first person we have to think of is the victim. The second is the perpetrator because obviously we want to try to bring about change. I agree that there are often underlying issues. There may be undiagnosed mental health issues when the perpetrator is young or he or she may not have received appropriate treatment for ADHD. We could write the book and we see it in communities. I know people who have gone through the system. They have been in and out of prison and are now fairly well on in life. It is clear that there were problems that were not identified. Sometimes perpetrators are victims of abuse, including sexual abuse, which has never been addressed. I would say Ms McCaffrey comes across a lot of that in the prisons.

We are spending a huge budget and there are huge costs. I accept that rehabilitation is taking place in the prisons and the witnesses have outlined that very well. There is education, assistance for prisoners and all of that. However, we have to get to the point where victims get more than a letter in the post telling them they are in a victims programme and then never hear any more about it. We see cases where people carry out four, five or six burglaries and are sent to prison at a cost of €88,000 per year. Surely victims should get some recompense and perpetrators should engage in a restorative justice programme.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Yes.

I cannot figure out why the State is not doing this. It is a win-win scenario. There are actually three sets of wins involved.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

We are definitely getting better at this. I agree with the Chair about the value of it.

Ms McPhillips used the term "mainstream". When will this be mainstreamed?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is in process this year. Posts have been funded and are working on that this year regionally across the country. I would be happy to bring the Chair to the Probation Service and give him a presentation on this. Very good work is being done on it.

I ask Ms McPhillips to do send an up-to-date summary report on the matter to the committee?

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is no problem.

There is no need to set it out chapter and verse. Just a brief summary will do.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

That is no problem at all.

That is one of the things we should be doing. It would lead to there being fewer guests of the State to look after and we might not need to provide another 680 prison places. We have to try to reduce the prison population.

That brings us to the end of our deliberations for today. I thank the witnesses from the Irish Prison Service, the Department of Justice and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for the work involved in preparing for the meeting. Sometimes the committee gets briefing notes that are as clear as mud but we received a ten-page submission, which was very clear. I acknowledge that; it helps the committee.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

I acknowledge my team, Chair, because they do great work.

We disputed one or two figures and there was a slight difference as regards dates and so on but the briefing papers were very concise and informative.

Ms Oonagh McPhillips

Good.

I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending and assisting the committee today. Is it agreed that the clerk to the committee will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed to note and publish the opening statements and briefings provided? Agreed. We will suspend the meeting and discuss correspondence and other business when we resume.

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 12.34 p.m. and resumed at 1.33 p.m.
Top
Share