COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 29 Feb 2024

Financial Statements 2022 - Tusla-Child and Family Agency

Ms Kate Duggan (CEO Tusla Child and Family Agency) called and examined.

An Cathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Deputy Dillon. Our witnesses are very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references the witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. John Crean, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we will engage with officials from the Child and Family Agency, Tusla, to examine the 2022 financial statements for the Child and Family Agency, the Sláintecare healthy communities parenting programmes, and the use of special emergency arrangements as areas of interest. We are joined by the following officials from Tusla: Ms Kate Duggan, CEO, Mr. Pat Smyth, national director of finance and corporate services, Ms Clare Murphy, interim national director of services and integration, and Ms Rosarii Mannion, national director of people and change.

We are also joined by the following representatives from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth: Mr. Colm Ó Conaill, assistant secretary in the disability division; Mr. Des Delaney, chief social worker and head of child care performance and social work unit; Ms Marie Kennedy, principal officer, alternative care policy; and Mr. Simon Conry, principal officer. They are all very welcome.

I now call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As members are aware, Tusla was established in 2014 with a broad remit to promote and enhance the safety, well-being and outcomes for children in Ireland. The agency’s financial statements for 2022 record total income of €964 million. Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth provided recurrent funding of €916.5 million and €18.5 million for capital investment. Vote 26 - Education supplied a further €44 million in respect of the school completion programme.

The agency’s expenditure in 2022 amounted to €981 million. A total of €315 million of this was on payroll in respect of around 4,700 whole time equivalent staff. Non-pay expenditure incurred of €633 million included €206 million for grants to community, voluntary and charitable organisations delivering a range of child and family services; €196 million on independent placement provision, mostly in respect of residential care; €121 million on statutory foster care and related allowances; €39 million on guardian ad litem costs; and €47 million on administration expenses.

I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the agency’s financial statements for 2022. However, I drew attention to the disclosure by the agency in its statement on internal control of non-compliant procurement of goods and services in 2022 amounting to €5.4 million.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. Ms Duggan is very welcome. She has five minutes to make her opening statement.

Ms Kate Duggan

I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation to appear before it today. I am joined here today by my colleagues Mr. Pat Smyth, national director of finance and corporate services, Ms Clare Murphy, national director of services and integration, interim, and Rosarii Mannion, national director of people and change. It has been 18 months since we last had the opportunity to meet the committee and we are grateful once again for the opportunity to be here today. We have been asked here to discuss Tusla’s financial statement for 2022 and parenting programmes. However, in advance of these items, we would like to give a broader update on our work today in 2024, an important year, as we reflect on ten years since the establishment of the agency in 2014.

Over the past ten years, the agency has grown significantly, with a 100% increase in child protection and welfare referrals. We have expanded our preventative family support and educational support work and implemented new services in line with changing policy and legislation, such as the birth information and tracing service. We have developed innovative programmes to meet emerging challenges, such as Covid-19 and the HSE cyber attack, and significantly scaled services to respond to a 500% increase in separated children seeking international protection-unaccompanied minors as result of the war in Ukraine and wider global movement.

Throughout this period, our corporate functions have also matured and developed and we have significantly increased our levels of legal and regulatory compliances. We are grateful for the increasing investment in our services over this period, to an overall budget in 2024 of €1.1 billion, with 75% of that budget allocated to placements, grants and commissioned community and voluntary services. We are proud of the agency’s achievements to date and of the positive work we have done with children, families and communities all over Ireland. However, we remain concerned regarding the core challenges we face, namely, an annual increase in referrals and the changing complexity of many of these referrals; the issues we have around placement capacity in foster care, residential care, aftercare, emergency care, and special care; the recruitment and retention of social workers and social care workers; and the increasing demand across all our community services.

Over the past 18 months, through our alternative care strategies, we have scaled up significantly with the provision of an additional 131 extra beds and the purchase of nine properties. However, as a result of the ever-increasing demand which I have set out, we remain challenged to source appropriate placements for children and young people, particularly those with complex presentations or in an emergency. One area of particular focus for us currently is that of special emergency arrangements, SEAs. Where a shortfall in capacity means a regulated emergency placement or a placement in a statutory, community and voluntary or private care service - either foster care or residential care - is not available, a special emergency arrangement is required to ensure an immediate place of safety for a young person. These are unregulated placements, mostly in rented accommodation, apartments and houses, with staffing from third party providers. While these account for a very small number of the totality of the children in our care, the oversight of SEAs and the provision of additional registered and regulated placements is a priority for Tusla at all levels in the agency, our board and Department.

As many commentators have already observed in the past year, Tusla cannot solve all these challenges alone. Significant interagency and cross governmental co-operation is required to ensure we are meeting the needs of children and young people. We particularly welcome two developments in recent weeks. First, the establishment by the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, of an interagency group on an administrative basis to oversee an interagency and cross-governmental response to children known to us or in the care of Tusla. Second, the joint commitment articulated by me as CEO of Tusla, and the CEO of the HSE, to the full implementation of the joint protocol for children with complex needs, specifically, that disagreement over resource allocation would not prohibit child centred decisions.

As we look ahead, our reform programme continues at pace, and our Corporate Plan 2024-2026 outlines a comprehensive roadmap to the ongoing implementation of this reform to ensure efficiency, equity and consistency in the services we provide. It also ensures that children, families, and individuals receive the right service at the right time, that our staff feel supported and valued, and that we are a trusted and respected public service. We anticipate that service demand and complexity will increase and additional investment in capital and revenue will be required in the coming years to keep pace with this demand. We look forward to further strengthening interagency work with the support of cross-government Departments to better meet the needs of children and young people in our care with more complex needs, particularly those with disability, mental health, addiction, or involvement with the youth justice system.

I thank the committee members for their time and I am happy to answer any questions they may have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Duggan. The first committee member this morning is Deputy Alan Kelly.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I thank our witnesses. This is an opportunity for Tusla to be open regarding quite a range of issues, many of them not of its own doing. I encourage the representatives to take the opportunity to be open with us on those. The obvious issue I have to raise is the special emergency arrangements. Ms Duggan has outlined it herself in her opening statement. I thought she would say a little bit more considering the recent media reports. It is quite worrying. To begin with, how much was spent last year on SEAs?

Ms Kate Duggan

€71 million.

Deputy Alan Kelly

If you go back four years ago, how much would it have been?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It was less than €5 million at that stage four years ago. It emerged as a post-Covid issue for us.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Therefore, €65 million of an increase in the space of three or four years. That is incredible, is it not?

Ms Kate Duggan

There are two things. First, I might give a bit of context-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Sorry, I do not want-----

Ms Kate Duggan

The money first, okay.

Deputy Alan Kelly

If Ms Duggan could be very brief. I do not want to be interrupting her.

Ms Kate Duggan

Regarding the special emergency arrangements, what we have seen, particularly over the last three to four years, is a significant increase in demand and that has been driven largely by the number of separated children and young people who have presented into this country seeking international protection. We have seen a 500% increase and we have had to respond to 1,200 young people. These are young people who turn up in our office, brought from the IPO, who on that night have to be found a bed. There can be six, seven or eight of them. On the other side, last week, to give the Deputy a figure, there was about 115 of those young people in an emergency arrangement. Last week, there was about 61 young people, from what we call our mainstream system, in a special emergency arrangement. When I came into the agency first, that was a number that was down in the low 20s and 30s. What we are seeing is that changing profile. Some of it we are attributing to post-Covid. What we are seeing is a group of young people. When we look at the 61 people who were there, only one of them was in a hotel. Sometimes people think it is always a hotel. On that, 86% of those young people came to us directly from a breakdown in home where parents may be involved in criminality or there are concerns around exploitation or about addiction or they have come to us where their behaviour has escalated because of underlying disability or mental health and they are unable to stay in a foster care or residential placement. The demand has driven the cost increase.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The demand has driven it. My issue here is that this is not of Tusla's doing but it has to deal with it. I direct a question to Mr. Ó Conaill. There is a serious issue here as regards resources and it is not all about money. There is a huge staffing issue. I presume Ms Mannion would agree with that. How many vacant posts are there in the organisation, off the top of her head?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

A vacancy is defined as a post that is not filled in any capacity so quite a number of the vacancies we have are filled by agency or by other grades of staff. On today's date, we would have the capacity to take 200 social workers. That is not saying we have 200 vacancies. It means because of sick leave, career break churn-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

In total across the organisation, how many posts are not permanent or have not been filled permanently?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

We are at our funded level at the moment so we have our funded capacity within Tusla.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Okay, but how many posts are not filled? How many positions are not filled?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

I would say in the region of 50.

Deputy Alan Kelly

What I am getting at here is to ask, from a departmental level, what has the Department done to help Tusla on this issue? It is quite obvious that the pay levels and the conditions for working in this organisation, working across the country and across various different layers within this, simply are not sustainable. I want to know what has Mr. Ó Conaill's Department done to help Ms Duggan, Ms Mannion and everyone in this organisation to be able to recruit social workers to be able to fulfil their roles?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

There are a number of points. The Deputy is correct and the CEO has picked up on it already. Regarding interagency co-operation, we are moving to set up a group on an administrative basis.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I saw that but I want to know what the Department has done over the past three to four years.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

That is important in addressing the reasons children end up in these situations, in terms of mental health disability and other issues going on.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I support that. That is no issue.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

Yes. The second piece is that Tulsa was given record funding for this year. It has a 10.3% increase-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I did not ask about funding. I want to know what the Department did to ensure that the people who will be employed by Tusla will work for it because their pay and conditions will be sufficient to allow them to take those jobs.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

I am going to turn to Mr. Delaney, our chief social worker, who can give the Deputy more detail on that. We are engaged with other Departments, including the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, on this matter. In particular, we are supporting awareness campaigns and recruitment campaigns that Tusla are doing.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Again, a waste of time. What is going to be done to increase the pay? Otherwise, people are not going to take these jobs.

Mr. Des Delaney

I might follow on there. A number of forums have been established between the Department and Tusla. One is the social work employers' group at which we are meeting with universities. We are encouraging more people to get into the profession and-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Has anything been done to increase pay? Forget about consultation and all of that. Consultation is fine and dandy. It is good; I get that. However, it is critical that the pay levels in this sector are increased. Otherwise, Tusla will not get workers.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

There are fora that are looking at these issues. I have not seen requests for the increase in salaries for grades come through. What we have seen is an allowance for special care. It is for staff working in special care units. That allowance is being actively followed up with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, but I have not seen requests for increased pay.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have a limited amount of time. I ask Mr. Ó Conaill to provide all correspondence between his Department and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform or with Tusla in respect of pay and conditions over the past three years.

I want to ask Ms Duggan about a report by Mr. Jack Power in The Irish Times on the issue relating to Ideal Care Services. I have to ask about it because what was in the report is frightening How much has Tusla spent with this organisation?

Ms Kate Duggan

In the year to date, approximately €10 million.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It seems that this organisation provides services under SEA. Basically, documentation was being-----

An Cathaoirleach

Just hold on a second. My understanding is that there could be legal proceedings in respect of the case to which the Deputy refers. He should discuss the matter without naming the organisation involved.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I will not name it.

Ms Kate Duggan

I know what the Deputy is saying.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I wan to know how this happened. We have a scenario where an organisation was sub-contracted by Tusla, which, I presume and as outlined earlier, is under deep pressure. Documentation was not screened, there were issues with Garda vetting and yet the organisation involved got close on €10 million over a number of years from Ms Duggan's organisation. How in the name of God did this happen? How could an organisation like this get through all the checks and balances and be paid nearly €10 million by Tusla? It is quite obvious they should not have been let anywhere near doing this work.

Ms Kate Duggan

I will speak broadly in terms of SEA providers. When SEA providers are engaged by us to provide a service, we obviously set out the requirements, as we would for any organisation providing a service, in terms of vetting and qualifications. As the significant increase in the number of special emergency arrangements in response to Ukraine, global movement and the post-Covid spike we are definitely seeing this in terms of the needs of children arose, we took a much more rigorous approach to overseeing these arrangements. We met with them all individually. We made sure they understood what their requirements were.

Our internal audit systems that we set up in the context of proactive audits, finance, vetting and the quality of services being provided picked up concerns in relation to different organisations. Where those concerns were picked up, they were evaluated. Where there was any concern that there was a risk to a child, we ceased operations with the company involved and, if necessary, referred the matter to An Garda Síochána.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I get all of that. How were they contracted in the first place? It is all very well saying-----

Ms Kate Duggan

When we contacted-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Wait one second. It is all very well saying that internal audit picked this up. Sometimes, internal audits are not only about money; they pick up on processes and all that sort of stuff. How was this organisation contracted in the first place?

Ms Kate Duggan

When an agency provides a service for us, it has to give us an assurance that its staff are Garda vetted and are qualified. We and many other of public bodies engage those services. In the context of the get assurances from them, we do not check everything. Some 75% of our funding goes to community and voluntary and private services. We do not see copies of all the Garda vetting reports or people's qualifications. What we see and what we receive are assurances. Because of the fact that these arrangements are unregulated, we decided to put a double lock in place. In addition to seeking assurances and confirmation, we got physical copies of the Garda vetting reports. We also looked for copies of people's qualifications.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Did Tusla get that because it was told there was an issue or did it find it organically by means of the double lock?

Ms Kate Duggan

We got it organically through our own audit process.

Deputy Alan Kelly

So nobody told Tusla about the organisation in question.

Ms Kate Duggan

No. That is the double lock.

We have been very vocal in saying that we want emergency provision that is registered and regulated. We want to use agencies that are registered and regulated. In the absence of that and of a multiagency response in respect of these young people, what I and the executive are taking so seriously is the level of oversight we have put in place regarding these arrangements in terms of rostering, qualifications and vetting.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have only a few minutes left. Ms Duggan said that Tusla has this double lock, but this is very scary stuff. I appreciate the situation Tusla is in. I have outlined that. In many ways, Tusla has been let down by the Department and by the Department of public expenditure. There are issues there that we will dig into it. I will certainly dig into them. When it comes to this matter, however, what is Tusla going to do differently now to make sure that something like this can never happen again?

Ms Kate Duggan

There are two parts to it. I will be really quick. First, just to give a level of reassurance, every one of these young people has an allocated social worker. They are visited in their placements. Every one of them has a care plan. We have EPIC involved in terms of doing external advocacy for these young people. We have brought in all of the oversights in relation to the requirements, the double-checking. What we are doing now is we actually have to see evidence. We have gone to the point now of doing sporadic on-the-spot video calls with these units to check identification and make sure that the people that are in our-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

What does Ms Duggan-----

Ms Kate Duggan

-----that we have information.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I ask Ms Duggan to be honest. What could the Department do to help Tusla more?

Ms Kate Duggan

In the context of the Department, it is obviously going to be additional investment in capital going on into the future. It is additional investment in respect of resourcing and the qualifications of staff. Fundamentally, what we need is the interagency piece. These young people in SEAs-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

They need the inter-agency piece followed up by funding-----

Ms Kate Duggan

Investment in capital.

Deputy Alan Kelly

-----in capital, and also investment in pay and conditions.

Ms Kate Duggan

In revenue. In pay and conditions, particularly in relation to special care allowances. I am mindful that, in terms of the public sector and in terms of the Department of public expenditure, Tusla staff are paid in line with public sector rates for social workers and social care workers.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Why cannot Tusla get staff?

Ms Kate Duggan

There is a couple of reasons. There is an issue around supply, and that is the work that is happening in terms of increasing the supply of social workers and the supply of social care workers through the education.

Deputy Alan Kelly

To be honest with Ms Duggan-----

Ms Kate Duggan

The other thing is this work is hard work.

Deputy Alan Kelly

From my experience, this work is very hard.

Ms Kate Duggan

It is very hard work.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have personal knowledge of this. The pay simply is not worth the lifestyle. That has to be addressed. Maybe Tusla is going about it with this inter-agency piece and it will bubble up from it, but that has to happen.

Ms Kate Duggan

On the urban allowance as well, we are seeing pockets of areas where, like the teachers and gardaí, we are struggling to recruit, in Dublin-mid-Leinster and Dublin-north-east, where we really need.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That is a broader issue. Recently, and I will not cross the line, in the Supreme Court there was a number of orders whereby it was held that Tusla would be held in contempt in relation to two cases of two children where there was a failure to apply for special orders in relation to them. This is also pretty bad. The issue that is emanating from this is that Tusla could not find places. What is going to be done in the Department about this? It is pretty bad when the Supreme Court is going to say the Department will be held in contempt if it does not deal with this.

In respect of guardians ad litem, I would like to ask the assistant secretary general about the legislation. The Child Care (Amendment) Act 2022 provides a statutory basis for the establishment of an independent guardian ad litem executive office. Where is this at? The C and AG has a long history in relation to this going back to 2025. It was referenced again in another report, the year of which I cannot remember exactly. This is going on and on. It seems to be an ad hoc arrangement. My final two questions are in relation to the Supreme Court.

An Cathaoirleach

Briefly.

Deputy Alan Kelly

How is Tusla going to deal with that? Will Mr. Ó Conaill or whomever outline what is being done to put that on a statutory basis and make it in some way functional?

Ms Kate Duggan

In terms of special care, it is obviously the only service in the country whereby, on a statutory basis, we are obliged to provide beds for children who are deprived of their liberty in order to keep them safe.

We are currently working at about 50% occupancy. We are working at 50% staffing levels. Those staffing levels are in terms of difficulty recruiting but also in terms of the level of assault on staff, with incidents where behaviours escalated with these young people who really cannot comprehend that their liberty is being taken away when they have not committed a crime. It is being taken away because of the safety concerns around them.

In regard to the young people that we have been unable to place, the reason they have been referred to special care is because they have not been able to secure the supports they need within community services, in terms of addiction, underlying grooming, exploitation and mental health services. Because there is a legislative obligation on us to provide a bed it is seen as a way of giving the child a place of safety at a particular time. We have submitted the business case to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in regard to increasing the allowances to see whether we can attract and recruit more staff into that service. We are hoping the interagency work will prioritise the intervention for children who are waiting for that service. We have also just got some external people who are knowledgeable in this area across a number of fields, to look at what we are doing and to make sure there is no stone that we have left unturned in regard to building capacity.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

On that point Deputy, there have been delays over several years. The legislation was passed in 2022 and work is actually ongoing at pace to establish an executive office. A director is going to be recruited in quarter 2 of this year. That director will be hiring other staff on a rolling basis and the office, as it continues to be established, has a consultant working with the Department's team at the moment on the operating model, practice manual, stakeholder engagement, transition plan, etc. There is ongoing active work in that regard.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That sounds good.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I welcome the witnesses. As I have even less time than Deputy Kelly, I ask the witnesses to keep their responses as short as possible. To follow on from the line of questioning on the issue that has been in the news, was the new internal compliance unit that has been put in place the unit that found the issue here or was there something before that?

Ms Kate Duggan

Within our quality and regulation directorate we have an internal audit function that audits. That proactive auditing that we do picked up an issue.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

And after that-----

Ms Kate Duggan

After that, we realised that we cannot just take assurances from these agencies that they have Garda vetting and qualifications. We have to physically set up a unit that checks every one of these manually.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How many people are in this compliance unit?

Ms Kate Duggan

There are now eight.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. We are certainly not going to talk about a particular agency or organisation with which there is Garda involvement. How many other organisations have been excluded as a consequence of this unit being set up and investigating that?

Ms Kate Duggan

We have stopped engaging with two agencies.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Because it gives us a better idea, what amounts of money had they received for services before being excluded?

Ms Kate Duggan

They received €4 million.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That was over what period of time?

Mr. Pat Smyth

That was since 2020 as well.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is there an ambition, instead of using agencies, to set up an actual public service?

Ms Kate Duggan

Our residential care strategy, which was developed in 2022, looked at identifying an additional 110 beds over a three-year period. That is what we felt we could deliver publicly in terms of the timeline to build and to recruit. The war in Ukraine and the increase in global movement has come. We have actually set up almost 200 additional beds over that period, but those beds-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are those State or agency beds?

Ms Kate Duggan

They are a mix of community and voluntary, State and private. We purchased nine houses since we developed that strategy. We got funding from the Department and purchased nine houses to open State units. Two of those houses are ready to come on stream. We are recruiting for them. The other seven should be on stream at the end of this year, into the beginning of next year.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It can be seen here that it is costing anyway but in fact it is more than a financial cost. There is a potential cost to very vulnerable children.

Ms Kate Duggan

The financial costs for the agency, to understand, these are young people, most of whom are in single placements because of the complexity of their need. They need 168 hours of care within the week. The average cost of running one of these placements, even if we were to run it, or the community and voluntary sector was to run it, would be about €15,000 a week or €15,500 a week because the staffing ratio is 2:1. It is the other cost-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the annual cost?

Ms Kate Duggan

That is about €400,000.

Mr. Pat Smyth

In the case of that single piece it is about €770,000 a year to put that kind of cover in.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We are looking at very vulnerable children.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In regard to the family resource centres, very quickly, I had a look at the map. I am not familiar with family resource centres because there is not one in my constituency. Yet it is a constituency with high levels of growth and the age profile is very young. That is similar to the likes of County Meath, Fingal or south Dublin. I was looking at the spread and it does not seem to grow at all with the demand. It is what you have, you hold. Essentially, the areas that have the highest number of young families are the ones where there is least cover in terms of care, which is absolutely bonkers. Then you talk about the follow-on problems and I look at the same issues in relation to my community healthcare organisation, CHO 7, which is the one I am most familiar with. I look at the deficiency of care and I can think of one particular family off the top of my head where you would have to step in because there simply were not services. There was a brass plate with the name of the agency, the children's disability network team, but essentially for people with the most extreme requirements, where there were very serious behavioural issues, there was no option but to take the children into care. The failure there was, they were told to come back in a year's time. The thing about it is, there is a stupidity in how funding is happening.

Will Ms Duggan tell us how we can get that cross-agency approach? The big failure will be predominantly between Tusla and the HSE.

Ms Kate Duggan

There are two things to say. There are 121 family resource centres in Ireland today, that are called, named and identify as family resource centres. There are many other programmes that run throughout Ireland that look at service provision to families. However, we see an imbalance in terms of how funding has historically been allocated and perhaps not in line with the recognised and known need of the community living in that area.

As part of our reform programme, and we will be very happy to meet Deputy Murphy separately, we are moving from 17 areas to 30 networks in terms of how we structure our services and are looking at the unit of service delivery being a network. We have done some geospatial mapping. It maps all of the commissioned services that already exist within those networks but against the deprivation indexes and the demographics. That will enable us to indicate what we believe to be the evidence that is going to be needed for future resource allocation and resource requests. It will enable us to demonstrate where we need more funding, not just in our child protection services but in that family support, early intervention and parenting services. We will be able to give that by network. That is real progress for us as an agency in terms of what we have done to develop that.

In regard to the work with the HSE, obviously that begins at the front line. That needs to begin as soon as possible so that when a child or young person needs a response, that agencies within those networks are working together to deliver that response and that we are moving away-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We know what needs to happen. Is it practically happening?

Ms Kate Duggan

Absolutely, huge progress has been made in that area. The difficulty still lies in resources. As I understand it from the work we are doing with colleagues at the HSE, and I may have this figure wrong, there are about 600 or 700 vacancies across disability services. Where the therapeutic support is not available because of the lack of resources, it is very difficult to work jointly with the child.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We have just heard about the huge amount of money it costs annually.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes, for the emergency arrangements.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yet it does not transfer across. Let us say those behavioural issues get to the extreme where there has been a lack of therapeutic care. At a much lower level, that could be managed without it costing potentially €700,000 in the most extreme case.

Ms Kate Duggan

That is for the HSE and disability and mental health services to answer.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, I know.

Ms Kate Duggan

Certainly, we are coming to the table.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am aware Ms Duggan is not here to answer that. There are, however, silos here and the system is not working in the best interests of very vulnerable people who need care.

On the increase in whole-time equivalent staffing, Tusla was able to recruit people at administrative and managerial grades, whereas the number of social workers fell. That obviously means the caseload rose. The issue is not just pay but also working conditions such as the caseload, as we have heard before.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the caseload like and how has it changed in the last couple of years?

Ms Kate Duggan

Ms Murphy or Ms Mannion may wish to come in after me. The first thing to say is that we are at our funded workforce. One of the positions we have taken as an agency is to say that where we have professionally qualified social workers or social care workers, they need to be doing what they need to do and do not need to be tied up with paperwork and administrative parts of the tasks. Where we did not have the supply of social workers or social care workers we needed, we have recruited other grades of staff. We have recruited, I think, 90 more additional social care workers-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are there vacancies on the social work side and, if so, how many?

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes. I will let Ms Mannion answer that question. Where we cannot get social workers, we have replaced social work grades with some administrative grades to try to do the administrative parts of their tasks.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, I understand that.

Ms Kate Duggan

We estimate we need an additional 200 social workers within the agency and if they were available today, we would reconfigure agency staff and how we allocate our resources to employ those people.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is Tusla employing people on an agency basis to fill those gaps?

Ms Kate Duggan

We have about 190 people on agency at the moment across administrative functions, residential care, limited social worker-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How much did that cost?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It cost €15 million for the last two years. That is the pay cost. The additional cost is made up of VAT which will come back to the Government. It is about 10% above normal rates.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is costing Tusla 10% more to do it on an agency basis.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

Ms Kate Duggan

It is important to say some of those agency costs relates to birth information and tracing. It was a short-term piece of work that just needs to be done relative to implementing the new legislation. It was in response to employing agency work to support us with Operation Shamrock, which was around the return of data linked to the HSE. We have very few front-line staff employed by agency where we have sought to convert them but they do not want to convert. We have a target this year of trying to convert 50 staff into mainstream work, but a number of the agency staff employed today are linked to a certain task, which we do not see needing to continue after next year.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Just to clarify, the majority of those agency staff are usually employed in the residential space, where rosters have to be filled when staff call in sick or whatever on a day. A large element of the agency spend is due to that.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Murphy.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will come back.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to clarify the 10% extra cost. Does that take in everything? Mr. Smyth mentioned VAT at one stage.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes, sorry. It excludes the VAT because obviously that comes back to the State so it is-----

An Cathaoirleach

With VAT then, how much is the extra cost to the agency?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It is 10%. If an average employee costs €45,000, then there is probably an extra 10% added to that for an agency staff worker.

An Cathaoirleach

Does that take in VAT?

Mr. Pat Smyth

No, it does not.

An Cathaoirleach

The question I am asking is----

Mr. Pat Smyth

It is about 27% extra when we add in the VAT and the-----

An Cathaoirleach

Agency staff are costing 27% more.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes. That is 27% more to Tusla but not to the State, obviously.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I will focus initially on residential care and fostering. I accept that the explosion in demand in the special emergency arrangements is probably unpredictable in the sense that we have seen enormous numbers of people arriving on out shores. It is saddening to think of a child travelling without a guardian and requiring that level of service and intervention. I accept that is broadly unpredictable from Tusla's point of view as an organisation. I will ask about workforce planning or the planning the agency does to anticipate demand for its services. How predictable is that? Is there a trend whereby we have predictions in demand based on population and then changes in demand within the population that are driving an increase in services? Are we seeing an expansion of demand beyond what we would normally predict?

Ms Kate Duggan

We would not have predicted the 10% increase in child protection and welfare referrals we have seen year on year over the last number of years. The figure has doubled since the agency was established. We look at that, as an executive management team, in terms of all the data we get from the Central Statistics Office and from other data sources, which the Deputy will be aware of. The new child poverty unit in the Department of the Taoiseach is working very closely with the CSO on trying to predict demand for different types of services related to children and families. The other thing we could never have predicted has been the number of separated children we have been required to respond to since March 2022. Apart from responding to and supporting all the Ukrainian families that came, 1,200 responses were required where young people aged under 18 years turned up on their own and needed the State to take them into accommodation.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

How can I make the distinction? Are these Irish children? I do not want to distinguish.

Ms Kate Duggan

No, these are separated children seeking international protection.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Okay. I said I wanted to put that to one side as I absolutely accept-----

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes, so in terms of Irish children-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

-----it would have need to impossible to predict that. I am asking about what modelling we do based on population whereby we anticipate services rather than respond.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes. The main modelling we use is the CSO data on age profile and demographics and the indices we get from lots of different agencies, such as Pobal, on homeless poverty and children in direct provision. We are looking at lots of different factors. We are predicting an ongoing increase in the numbers being referred but what we had not expected, and this shows the complexity of the demand that is there, is the very real number of troubled young people aged between 15 and 17 we are seeing who require a response from us in either our child welfare or child protection space.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I asked that question because the next question is how we plan to respond. What is Tusla's policy position on State provision versus community and voluntary versus private provision? Is it a stated goal of Tusla to move towards public provision?

Ms Kate Duggan

On our residential care, when we wrote our residential strategy in 2022 - the strategy shows all the data we used to inform it - we had a provision of 60:40, whereby 60% of our residential provision was private and 40% was either statutory or community and voluntary. We set out an ambition to first change that to 50:50 provision through the additional 110 beds and then to try to flip to 40:60, with 40% being private and 60% being community, voluntary and State. It is that strategy that led the Department to give us the additional allocation to purchase the units I referred to and in relation to the additional recruitment for those units.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Were those special emergency arrangement, SEA, units?

Ms Kate Duggan

No, they were residential units.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have a response to a parliamentary question submitted by my colleague, Deputy Costello, on the number of residentials managed by Tusla or its predecessor agencies since 2013. In 2014, when Tusla was founded, the figure was 44. In 2023, the figure was 39.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That shows me a direction of travel that is not in the correct one.

Ms Kate Duggan

There was a decision made over the years to close high-support units within Tusla. The whole focus of the residential strategy was to look at the current landscape and what demands and needs were there and to project out the additional beds. What we had not been able to predict, and this has slowed us down, was the additional staff and money for the recruitment of beds. When we engaged with the community and voluntary sector sustainability was the challenge it had, so we sought and received additional funding in the Estimates to provide additional funding for sustainability to engage with the community and voluntary sector to try to support it to scale its beds such that, in line with Tusla, the community and voluntary residential providers would be able to scale. The challenge we are all facing is the workforce challenge.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am looking at the non-pay expenditure for 2018 to 2020 in the briefing note prepared by the secretariat, which is very helpful to all of us.

The expenditure, say, on foster and aftercare allowances, flatlined or looks pretty much dead flat. Office administration was in and around the same. There was a slight increase in expenditure on community and voluntary charitable organisations.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The expenditure that is going through the roof - the red line - is independent placement provision. I object even to the language of that because it obfuscates what we are actually talking about, which is private.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

A phrase that I found in the documentation, which I boked at quite honestly, is "private, for-profit sector providers". The idea of "for-profit" when it comes to some of our most vulnerable children sticks in my craw. It has been said that we have this objective to flip the ratio in terms of public and private provision but I am not seeing residential unit places coming. I have seen a reduction since 2014. Since Tusla has been formed, we have five fewer residential units and I have seen a massive spike in private money. Can Ms Duggan explain whether the massive spike means more placements or - and I hate using this phrase - higher cost per child within those placements?

Ms Kate Duggan

There is a couple of different factors at play. First, it is important for me to say that there are private providers out there today that provide an excellent service and look after those children.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I have no doubt. I am not casting any aspersions on them but I just do not think the care of our most vulnerable children is an area where we should be applying profit over it.

Ms Kate Duggan

Our ambition is to change that. As I said, we have been slowed in that ambition because of the demand that has come at us in terms of having to provide a physical location, a physical bed and staffing for the number of separated children who seek international protection. More than 329 young people are being accommodated by Tusla tonight. They have had to have been found buildings, properties, beds and staffing in terms of responding to them. That is a challenge we had not estimated.

Second, in terms of occupancy levels, a mainstream residential unit would have four young people living in that who are supervised, cared for and supported by staff. What we have seen in recent years is a reduction in the number of young people who are able to stay in that type of unit. Often the court, having reviewed their case, has directed that there is to be just a dual or single occupancy unit. Those situations have significantly increased the cost of provision by child either in the statutory or community and voluntary sectors or in the private sector. We maintain that our ambition is that we want to reduce our reliance on private provision. That is why the nine units, which we are trying to open in statutory, over this year and next year, aims to start to shift that provision and dependency.

Mr. Pat Smyth

To clarify one point, the cost of running a private residential unit is comparable with the cost of a Tusla unit in around €7,000 per week.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That is why I would much if we provided this care through the State.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes but it is important to clarify that point. The Deputy is absolutely right that numbers have increased in terms of the number of placements in private.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I read the Proclamation as I pass through the foyer and the obligation we are supposed to have is to care for all the children of the State.

On foster provision, during my teaching career I taught a number of foster children. I also met foster parents who do an unbelievable job. My God, they should be better supported because they do an incredible job. I have seen the wonderful work that foster parents have done with the children who they have taken into their homes. On an hard economical analysis, and these figures might be out of date, but a Tusla foster care placement costs around €325 for a children under 12 years. A private foster care placement - and I do not why we would have two types of placement - is about €1,000. I have also seen figures for other types of placement. While I accept that some children are too challenging and complex for foster parents to care for within their homes the cost of residential placement is absolutely through the roof. Should we not better support foster parents? I ask because foster parents are as rare as hen's teeth and they feel under-supported.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Foster care is the best outcome and best value for money. It does not matter what type of lens one applies to foster care, if we get more foster parents into the system and better support them then we will get better outcomes for children and for the State.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

What are we doing to provide the resources, and into public foster care placements, rather than private?

Ms Kate Duggan

First, last year 90% of our children in care were in foster care. We are, as a country, a European leader in terms of being able to have 90% of children in care in foster care. Similar to the residential strategy that we developed, one of the things that we did and put an awful lot of time into back in 2022 - and I personally met between 500 and 600 foster carers during that period - was to look to see what did our strategy need to be to sustain 90% of children in foster care or even seeking to improve that percentage. One part of that was around the allowance. The allowance was increased in this year's budget for the first time since 2009. One issue they have concerns pensions and their pension entitlements. The Department of Social Protection are looking at that matter.

The biggest issue was the supports that they could get for the children in their care in terms of access to therapeutic supports and prioritisation for access to therapeutic supports. That will be a feature of the interagency group, namely, how do we seek to get them prioritised. From our allocation last year, we made a decision to prioritise for the first time ever a national fostering lead within the agency. That person is now leading out on how we better support foster carers across the agency and working with foster carers on that.

We have, for the first time, introduced a peer support model. We have recruited into Tusla six foster parents to work with us on offering support to foster carers and new foster carers in the regions. We also are looking at how we standardise the supports that we give go foster carers.

This week is fostering awareness week. It is a significant campaign that aims to recruit foster carers and recruit in a changing social environment. For example, how do we recruit people today who are working, who are single or who are in same-sex relationships? These people might not know that they could become foster carers. As we want to support and recruit them, we have a huge focus on that in the agency at the moment. Today, we have well over 3,800 foster care families who are the spine of the care system and, for all of us, look after those children in care so well and we certainly want to do better by them.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I welcome our guests. It is good to engage with them again because it has been a while. Ms Duggan is attending in a different capacity today. I wish her well in her role and the same goes for her team.

In a few moments, I will follow up on a number of issues that arose following my last engagement with Mr. Gloster, who held the same position as Ms Duggan at that time. I will first focus on the home-school liaison scheme and the school completion scheme. I note the annual report states there were 160 new positions created within DEIS schools, which is very welcome. How many vacancies exist in those two schemes?

Ms Kate Duggan

Does the Deputy mean Tusla staffing?

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Yes.

Ms Kate Duggan

I might have to refer to Ms Mannion. I am not sure if we have that information to hand but we can certainly get it to the Deputy.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Yes.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

We will supply it.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

That is fine. Please also give us a breakdown vis-à-vis vacancies across Dublin.

The annual report states that there were 5,755 children in care, which is "108 ... fewer than in 2021." What is the figure for 2023?

Ms Kate Duggan

At the end of December 2023 there were 5,613 children in care. That figure does not include the separated children who are seeking international protection and who are accommodated.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

How many children are in separated care, effectively those who are unaccompanied minors?

Ms Kate Duggan

I will get the Deputy the most recent information.

Mr. Des Delaney

It is 159 children in care and 159 children under section 5, so that is a breakdown of over 300.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes, in and around 320 and that is a mix of children who we have taken into care and those who are accommodated by the State. The figure is in and around 320 children every week.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

What is the difference between section 5 versus those who are in care? What is section 5 care?

Ms Kate Duggan

Section 5, under the legislation, concerns a right to accommodation. It is where children are being accommodated by the State. Again, from a legislative basis, one of the things we have recognised in respect of the cohort of young people, particularly those coming from Ukraine or who are now coming from further afield and the increase in the number of those, is the response that we offer to those people if they are here for the long term.

We asked the Children's Rights Alliance, with the support of the Minister and the Department, to convene an engagement with more than 35 stakeholders to look at how the State can better respond in terms of health needs, accommodation, and their care status. Many of these young people are in contact with their families on a daily basis. There is a question over whether they are coming into the care of the State legislatively, being volunteered into care, or if they are seeking accommodation.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Could I just ask-----

Ms Kate Duggan

We have just received that report back from the Children's Rights Alliance for consideration. It has a number of recommendations on the legal status, the provision of care and the provision of accommodation. It is for the wider government to then implement them.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

The oversight and vetting of unaccompanied minors and the 5,600 children in Tusla's care seems a bit removed from the agency's role. It is charged with protecting these vulnerable children but it simply relies on outside agencies for Garda vetting. Ms Duggan said Tusla just requests Garda vetting. Of course it is in those agencies' interests to ensure that they are completely compliant but is there oversight of that process to ensure that organisations are adhering to what is required? Ms Duggan will be aware of the media reports. There are some very harrowing situations. We want to ensure that the children who are in care are safer in Tusla's care than they were with their families.

Ms Kate Duggan

There are 5,613 children in care. Just over 5,034 or 90% of those children are in foster care. They are obviously regulated by HIQA in terms of the foster care placements. Of the remaining 408 that are in residential care and special care, special care is also inspected by HIQA and anyone in a Tusla facility is inspected and regulated by HIQA. Where there is an issue is that any young person in a private residential placement, the inspection is carried out by our registration and inspection monitoring team. We would certainly love to see HIQA take on the role.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

How frequent is that?

Ms Kate Duggan

It is done in the same way as HIQA. The same standards are applied and the inspection and monitoring is carried out in the same way.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is advance notice given of the inspections?

Ms Kate Duggan

There is both advance notice and spot checks of the inspections, in the same way as HIQA does risk-based inspections.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I am sorry but I have limited time. Does Ms Duggan have the breakdown of how many spot checks are done per annum?

Ms Kate Duggan

Is that for private residential facilities?

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Yes, please.

Ms Kate Duggan

We can get that for the Deputy. I do not have it here.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Does Ms Duggan not have it here today?

Ms Kate Duggan

Not for our inspection and monitoring, but it is important to say that we have sought through our Department and the Department of Health that HIQA would take over the inspection, registration and monitoring of all of the facilities, so that there would be equity in that.

Those in the last group, which is the 61 who are in special emergency arrangements, are not regulated or registered. They are the ones where we have put the double lock in to try and give ourselves further assurances around the care being provided.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Ms Duggan for that reply. I want to move on to social workers. I acknowledge what she said about vacancies and the unfortunate decrease in staff numbers. There is a challenge across the public sector attracting staff. Tusla seems to have a problem retaining staff, in particular in this field. I have no doubt that some of the cases that individuals in Tusla deal with are very challenging. I would be the first to say that. However, we were told about 1,669 social workers in 2021 and 1,612 in 2022. What is the figure for 2023?

Ms Kate Duggan

I will ask my colleague, Ms Mannion, to respond to the Deputy.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

At the moment we have 1,611. What I would say is that we are stabilising. I would obviously like if that was better but we are stabilising in regard to the social work resource. We very much focus on what we can do. Terms and conditions are outside of our control and remit but we have an excellent people and change strategy, which is really the enabler of the entire reform programme. As the Deputy knows, we are entirely reliant on our people to deliver the service. We are not reliant on machines, computers, or whatever else. That is why that investment is so key.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I thank Ms Mannion for that response. Effectively, Tusla is standing still in terms of the number of social workers for 2023. Could she detail the training and supports available to existing social workers? I have heard reports of a high level of burnout and stress. Given the reduction in the number of social workers the work is obviously falling on other people's shoulders. More importantly, could she detail the oversight and monitoring of the work of social workers?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

In terms of the entire people strategy, we have eight strategic aims. Each one of them addresses the aspects the Deputy outlined in his question. Supporting our well-being is a key pillar within the strategy. In doing that we have brought in a dedicated induction programme, You Start. We have provided dedicated time for our new recruits when they come in.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

When did that programme start?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

It started last year in 2023. Our current strategy is for the years 2022 to 2024.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Specifically in terms of oversight, how are notes and information on people's files monitored?

Ms Clare Murphy

I will take that. A professionally registered social worker is subject to what is called supervision. It is a formal mechanism used to monitor the work of a social worker. We also have a Tusla case management system that is ICT-based, and it includes notes. It is the responsibility of the team leader to go into that on a regular basis.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Is that being done?

Ms Clare Murphy

Absolutely.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

According to the annual report, a number of complaints were received, which is not unusual for any organisation. Poor communication was at 3% in 2020 and nearly 5% in 2021 but then it jumped to 10% in 2023. What was the reason behind that? Why was there a huge increase in complaints about poor communication? Is that poor communication with the individuals who are in the care of Tusla? Does anyone want to comment on that? It seems like a sizeable jump.

Ms Kate Duggan

The first thing is that we have put a real focus over the past three years on service user feedback. We want to hear from service users. That is something that perhaps we had not been promoting as much. There is positive feedback but there are also complaints. We see that as a learning system. I do not have the detailed breakdown on communication but one of the real significant parts of our reform programme is about better supporting staff and service users so that there are not opportunities or concern in regard to communication. We respond where we see that there is an issue or where a service user has felt that they have not been communicated with appropriately.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Mr. Smyth will recall that I raised poor communication when Tusla was last before us. That is something as simple as a business card for social workers with contact details that means a person can actually get in touch with them. I say that from experience on behalf of constituents who find it extremely difficult to make contact, between social work staff who have left, no one being readily available to take over a case, or those who are on the case and who are very difficult to contact. Have any changes been made in that regard? It is not for us public representatives; it is more important for the public who are dealing with Tusla to be assured that they can contact a social worker and for people to get feedback from their social worker.

Ms Kate Duggan

There are two things to say in response. That is something that came up in the foster care strategy. Foster carers told us that they felt frustrated that they could not contact social workers. We are trying to strike the balance between access to our social work staff during work hours and making sure that if the call goes to an office or work mobile that those details are available, and that people understand that we have a 24-hour out-of-hours service. I know a person cannot talk directly to a particular social worker but a work mobile number is provided.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Are they on a card?

Ms Kate Duggan

No, we do not have business cards.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Tusla still does not have business cards.

Ms Kate Duggan

Not consistently across the service.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

Why is that? This is an issue I raised previously. At the time I was told that it would be examined. That was 13 months ago, and now Ms Duggan is telling me that it is still not there. She must appreciate the situation from the perspective of the public who are dealing with the agency. Social workers can have a huge impact on their lives, yet they cannot be contacted. I find it astonishing that 13 months later Tusla is still wondering about it. There is no consistency across the organisation.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I think that is a reasonable point.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

It was 13 months ago.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Could I point out that one of the issues we have is the protection of staff?

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I appreciate that.

Mr. Pat Smyth

There is an issue with giving out those kinds of details. It is one thing to give a number to somebody, but it is a completely different thing to have a business card that will get around the place.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Mr. Pat Smyth

We experience a lot of abuse of staff.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I appreciate that, too, and we have dealt with that before.

Mr. Pat Smyth

That is at the core of this. That is one of the reasons people are reluctant to-----

Ms Kate Duggan

-----give it on a card, but we are-----

Mr. Pat Smyth

We have tried to come up with other options.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I am not saying that personal details should be included. I appreciate that. Work mobiles are commonplace. From the public’s perspective, these are not all individuals who would cause hassle or danger to the workers. There is the fact that there is no consistency across the organisation.

Ms Kate Duggan

Not about the business card part of it.

Deputy Cormac Devlin

I know, but the business cards will follow into the communications of the organisation. I will ask the representatives to come back to us with a note on that, as well as the other issues.

An Cathaoirleach

That should include work mobile numbers. I thank Tusla. I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is funny, because let me just read this email about phone calls, which I received:

Good morning, Verona. In your discussions with Tusla, could you please bring the following to its attention with regard to its Ardcavan office? When you phone the given number, there is a three-and-a-half-minute waiting time and then you are diverted to St. John's. That has been happening for years. They will tell you there is some problem with the phones. I need to talk to someone urgently this morning in Ardcavan. I have not yet done so, after nearly an hour of trying to do so. That is after trying eight different mobile numbers for social workers. Really, it is not working.

That was yesterday. It just happened that my colleague brought up the fact that it was 13 months. If you have a 24-hour service, that number is what you put on a business card. I do not see how this is some great experience for a foster carer if they have to wait for an hour. They are working people; they are not just foster parents.

An awful lot of backslapping has gone on here this morning. Given the number of issues I have with Tusla, I do not know where its opening statement came from. I am tired of hearing that it is not about money. It is not about money, is it?

Ms Kate Duggan

What is not about money?

Deputy Verona Murphy

Regarding everything you hear from Tusla, such as its recruitment issues. The issues in general within Tusla are not about money. Is that not the truth?

Ms Kate Duggan

Our main challenges are particularly in relation to placements and social workers. When we do not have enough social workers, when we do not have social workers allocated to every person, we will see a breakdown in communication and some of the issues-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I asked you-----

Ms Kate Duggan

But my issue is-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I have very limited time. The question was-----

Ms Kate Duggan

With social workers, it is a matter of supply.

Deputy Verona Murphy

-----is it about money?

Ms Kate Duggan

Right now, our big issues are around the supply of social workers and the supply of properties to open residential units. We are spending €71 million on special emergency arrangements-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

What is your preference: residential units or foster carers?

Ms Kate Duggan

Foster carers.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When did they last receive an increase?

Ms Kate Duggan

This year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Did they receive it?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The full amount?

Ms Kate Duggan

It is over 20%.

Mr. Pat Smyth

There is €10 million in this year’s budget. The rates have gone up by approximately 20%.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When did they receive it?

Ms Kate Duggan

The first part of it was last November and the last part of it will be this November.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes. The next increase will be in November of this year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How did they get that increase?

Mr. Pat Smyth

In the weekly rate. It was an increase to the weekly funding they get.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What was the rate of increase?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It was 9% for the first phase. The rate has gone up to-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

That was the first increase since when?

Ms Kate Duggan

2009.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was since 2009 and they got 9%. Public servants will have gotten lots of increases in that time.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

I can clarify this for the Deputy if she wishes. There are two different rates for children under the age of 12 and over the age of 12-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, I do not need Mr. Ó Conaill to tell me that. I am trying to point out that 2009 was 15 years ago, but Tusla is telling me that it does support them. As a public representative, I have never heard from this Department about its issues regarding recruitment, etc. I have heard its chair on the radio saying that most positions are filled. Recently, there was quite an engaging argument between a presenter on one of the radio shows with the chair of Tusla, in which the chair denied that there were any issues and that all posts were being filled. They said Tusla did not have issues. Yet, the issues Tusla has are having a very serious impact on our most vulnerable in society.

I submitted a series of parliamentary questions before Christmas about Tusla’s budgeting arrangements. I have no difficulty with private agencies being employed where there is nobody else. I am not concerned about the money Tusla is spending on them, because it is very clear that there are 60 fewer social workers in Tusla now than there were in 2021, according to the figures from the Comptroller and Auditor General. What is the problem? Does Tusla do exit interviews?

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What does it find from the exit interviews that is causing them to leave? Were they retirements that Tusla is not replacing?

Ms Kate Duggan

I will let Ms Mannion speak in more detail. In the exit interviews, we see a mix we of people who move on to opportunities in other organisations. Social work has become a profession that is in high demand across the areas of justice, Tusla and the HSE.

Deputy Verona Murphy

On that basis, what engagement has Tusla had with the educational authorities to recruit?

Ms Kate Duggan

I will let Ms Mannion go into the detail.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, you answer it, please.

Ms Kate Duggan

Okay. In terms of the educational supply, first, we engaged with the university in Scotland. We are supporting it through a bursary for social care workers to qualify as social workers. We have a new course-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

For instance, how many social workers will qualify in Ireland this year?

Ms Kate Duggan

Approximately 200, if they do not drop out.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How many of them will Tusla employ?

Ms Kate Duggan

They are all offered a permanent contract.

Mr. Pat Smyth

For the last three years, we have actually offered all of them-----

Ms Kate Duggan

Every one of them was offered a permanent contract.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How many?

Mr. Pat Smyth

There were approximately 140 last year.

Ms Kate Duggan

In 2023-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Well, hold on a second now.

Ms Kate Duggan

In 2023, 138 of the graduates accepted a permanent contract.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Let us go to 2022, for which I have the figures. Something does not stack up. If Tusla employed an extra 140, why-----

Ms Kate Duggan

No, in 2023, 138 graduates accepted a permanent post.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What about 2022?

Ms Kate Duggan

I do not have the 2022 figures for the graduate programme in front of me.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will point out to Ms Duggan that the figures I have show that there are 60 fewer from 2021 to 2022.

Ms Kate Duggan

I am just giving the figures-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will read it for Ms Duggan. Regarding social work, in 2021 there were 1,669 and in 2022 there were 1,612. There was therefore no increase. There was a decrease.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

If I may, at any one time, we can have 100 social workers on maternity leave. Our workforce is 85% female-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

They would still be employed.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

Yes, but they can be on unpaid leave. They can be on a shorter working year. They can be on a career break. We can have resignations, or whatever the case may be.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Tusla would still have to register them as employed.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

But not as full WTs. If somebody is off on maternity leave, they will come in as a part WT during the year. The Deputy is not looking at the headcount there; she is looking at the number of WTs.

Ms Kate Duggan

It is important to say that we acknowledge that we have a challenge around social work and social care in the agency. We absolutely acknowledge that we need-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

You acknowledged it in 2019.

Ms Kate Duggan

But I was just telling you what we were doing-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

This is 2024. Sorry Ms Duggan, just one second. I have limited time.

Ms Kate Duggan

Can I tell you what we are doing to try to increase that-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

No progress is being made within Tusla. There is no progress, and the backslapping-----

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask the Deputy to let Ms Duggan to finish her sentence.

Deputy Verona Murphy

She has finished.

An Cathaoirleach

No, she was halfway through a sentence. Finish your sentence Ms Duggan.

Ms Kate Duggan

What I was trying to say is that we recognise that we are losing more social workers than we are recruiting. In terms of recruiting, there is a supply issue. It is anticipated across all of the sectors that need social workers, we need approximately 500 social workers to qualify every year in Ireland. Right now, there are 200.

Deputy Verona Murphy

But your chair does not say that.

Ms Kate Duggan

Can I just say three things? I am setting out here today the actions we have taken. We have done bursaries with Scotland. We have a new course opening in Limerick in the technological university in September. We have sponsored a new course to open in Sligo. We have an overseas campaign. We have also now engaged with the Minister, Deputy Harris, to launch an apprenticeship scheme for social workers. Those are all new initiatives that happened over the past 18 months to help us keep ahead in recruiting more social workers.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Ms Duggan, in 2019, you gave this same speech.

Ms Kate Duggan

I am telling you-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I read it this morning. 2019 was five years ago.

Ms Kate Duggan

I was not here in 2019, so I did not.

Deputy Verona Murphy

You were.

Ms Kate Duggan

I was not. I joined the agency in late 2020.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Well then it is based on the article that was read in 2020. It is still four years on. The reality is this: the chair of Tusla does not concur with what Ms Duggan is saying. They are not his public statements.

Ms Kate Duggan

Our chair is stating the fact, which is that today we have made a decision. Where we had vacancies in social work and social care, previously we would not have filled them and would have left them vacant. We made a decision within the agency to use the resources that are available today to fill all those posts to better support social workers. If social workers are supported with their administrative tasks in relation to an administrative burden, they may be more likely to stay.

Deputy Verona Murphy

They may, but it does not ever happen.

Ms Kate Duggan

What we have seen for the first time this year-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Chair, you have used up all my time. Sorry Ms Duggan.

Ms Kate Duggan

-----150 staff have returned to Tusla this year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How many?

Ms Kate Duggan

Some 150 staff have returned to Tusla this year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

From where?

Ms Kate Duggan

From across the public sector.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Were they seconded there, or what?

Ms Kate Duggan

They just came back. They have been rehired for vacancies.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Right. Were they administration staff?

Ms Kate Duggan

They were across the board.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The biggest increase that I am seeing here is actually in the areas of management and administration.

Ms Kate Duggan

That is because we have been trying to support-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

They are not actually front-line staff.

Ms Kate Duggan

No, but-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Tusla is also down two nurses. Where it comes-----

Ms Kate Duggan

The nurses are in our pre-school inspection programme.

Deputy Verona Murphy

On inspections, most of the people I have contact with who engage with Tusla have nothing good to say. I know of a school that has been contacting Tusla about children for three months without any engagement. The school, the grandparents and individuals within the public have made contact but there has been no engagement. Does that sound normal?

Ms Kate Duggan

That does not sound-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Does that sound like a response?

Ms Kate Duggan

It does not sound like a response, no.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is not good enough, is it?

Ms Kate Duggan

No, it is not.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Despite that, it is frequent. There are foster carers who tell me that they have not had respite for years while fostering children who have profound needs related to autism. They also have not seen a social worker for years. Looking at parental supports, that is, prevention as opposed to cure, in her opening statement, Ms Duggan talked about the increased number of presentations Tusla is seeing. Did it ever dawn on her that there might be a solution through early intervention and that if we invested in early intervention at some point we might see the number of presentations reduce? I am not talking about IPAS presentations. I am talking about parental support for children who do not get accepted when referred to CAMHS to keep those children out of the mental health system. Without a mental health system, there is no healthcare system, but this does not appear to be on Tusla's radar.

Ms Kate Duggan

I am not going to take up the Deputy's time but our-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Do you-----

Ms Kate Duggan

-----reform programme is all about trying to enhance our response to children and families at the front door.

Deputy Verona Murphy

However, when I asked, Tusla had not even allocated a budget for that.

Ms Kate Duggan

In 2023, we gave funding of more than €232 million to 56 organisations. We gave €7 million for family resource counselling, €22 million for family resource services, €7 million for creative alternatives and €7 million for disability management.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Hold on a second. What-----

Ms Kate Duggan

That is investment.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When I asked Ms Duggan a question about budgeting, she was not able to answer me.

Ms Kate Duggan

I did not understand the Deputy's question.

Deputy Verona Murphy

You did not understand it?

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Deputy put the question again?

Deputy Verona Murphy

The question was submitted as a parliamentary question.

An Cathaoirleach

To be fair, there is a lot of back and forward.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I asked about "the level of funding due to be allocated over the next 12 months to agencies within the remit of his Department to support the prevention and early intervention benefits of parenting support". What did Ms Duggan not understand?

Ms Kate Duggan

That was a question for the Department.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It was for both. It went to both because it is Tusla's allocation as well.

An Cathaoirleach

We are gone way over time. Could the question be submitted again?

Ms Kate Duggan

On whether the parliamentary question can be reviewed, I will look at it.

An Cathaoirleach

If the Deputy is happy to, she can come back to the committee or to Tusla with that.

Ms Kate Duggan

Going back to something Deputy Murphy recognised, it is also important to say that some of the funding we give out for parenting supports and FRCs is given in the knowledge that those centres will consider where the greatest need is in that local area. While the funding is allocated for general family supports, those centres may decide to direct it to parents' counselling, an after-school activity for children or a response to a particular cohort. Some funding goes out as overall funding for a region, which the local organisation then allocates. However, I will take away the Deputy's question and give her a breakdown.

Deputy Verona Murphy

When Ms Duggan says that they decide, does Tusla just give them the money?

Ms Kate Duggan

No, we give it to the services-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Do they decide when they look for it or when it is allocated?

Ms Kate Duggan

It is determined through their section 56 agreements.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I had several meetings with the HSE and Tusla regarding a particular child. There was a child protection issue for the whole family based on the child engaging in self-harm. He was an 11-year-old. As an organisation, Tusla promised the sun, moon and stars as regards supports. There were no supports forthcoming and, when the holidays came, the mother was unable to take the child back home. She just could not because of the danger posed to herself, the child and her other children.

Ms Kate Duggan

Did the child have a disability?

Deputy Verona Murphy

As a result of Tusla not providing the supports it said it would ensure were provided, that child is now in residential care at a cost of €37,000 per month. That is not what annoyed everybody, however. What annoyed everybody was that the child was taken into University Hospital Waterford under section 12 and was provided with 24-hour care in the hospital under supervision from Tusla. Around the clock, there was somebody standing at the bed with the child and yet the mother was not afforded those supports. How can Tusla say in its opening statement that it is engaging with families and doing the best it can when this is happening everywhere all over the country?

An Cathaoirleach

Would Ms Duggan like to respond briefly?

Ms Kate Duggan

I obviously do not know this particular case. Does the child have an underlying disability? Does he need a disability residential placement or a Tusla residential placement?

Deputy Verona Murphy

He needed a disability residential placement but the engagement from Tusla that was promised-----

Ms Kate Duggan

We sometimes have to step in where there is a lack of disability services for children.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What do you mean? I am sorry but, in fairness, I put something very simple to Ms Duggan. I said that I engaged with Tusla as well as with the HSE. There seems to be an awful problem whereby, when they come together, it is nobody's business. Tusla can say it is a matter for the HSE, as Ms Duggan just did, and the HSE can say it is a matter for Tusla.

Ms Kate Duggan

Residential disability placements come under the HSE. The joint protocol clearly sets out-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

The residential placement had to be taken up because Tusla fell down on providing supports to the parent and family. It did not provide the supports it promised.

Ms Kate Duggan

I do not know the case.

Deputy Verona Murphy

You engaged with me, as a representative, and you engaged with the family.

Ms Kate Duggan

I did not.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Ms Duggan did not personally but Tusla did.

Ms Kate Duggan

I do not know what supports were promised. I will certainly look back at the case and see what the issues were.

An Cathaoirleach

We are talking about a very specific case. None of the rest of us know the background. Obviously, we cannot bring up all the details here. With regard to this particular case, I ask that Deputy Murphy-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I believe that case has come to an end. The issue is that supports-----

An Cathaoirleach

It would be useful for that conversation to happen.

Deputy Verona Murphy

It happens every day. Supports are promised and never employed.

An Cathaoirleach

One of the things that has come out this morning, which is not new to many of us, is that staffing levels in the children's disability network teams and CAMHS across a lot of the country are insufficient. Where I live in the midlands, the last census of staffing levels I saw said that they were at 50% to 60% of where they should be. Staffing levels in some therapeutic services are at 30% and 35%. The interventions that are needed are not happening. The very specific point the Deputy is raising, which is a fair one, is about Tusla providing more support earlier on, which would prevent the situation escalating into a far more serious one, and about the lack of engagement. On that particular case, I ask the Deputy to-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

There is no point in engaging. The child is now in residential care.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand but it is important that the Deputy understand what happened there.

Deputy Verona Murphy

No, what is important is that, when care is promised, it is delivered. If it cannot be delivered, that should be said.

Ms Kate Duggan

I absolutely accept that.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Ms Duggan give a commitment to answering that parliamentary question?

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

It is important that the Deputy get that answer.

Ms Kate Duggan

There is a new CEO in the HSE and I am here in Tusla and, for the first time, we have jointly convened calls as a result of the two agencies not agreeing on a resource. We have jointly communicated that resourcing is not to be a factor in decision-making. I can see significant improvement in how things work at our level in the HSE and Tusla. We are both ambitious for that to filter down throughout the system.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The process is just too slow. As I have said, Tusla's statement from 2020 reflects what Ms Duggan is saying today. I am afraid I see no improvement.

An Cathaoirleach

We will take a short break and resume in ten minutes sharp.

Sitting suspended at 10.58 a.m. and resumed at 11.13 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Burke.

Deputy Colm Burke

I apologise to our guests for being late but I had to attend questions to the Minister for Health in the Dáil.

I want to raise several issues in regard to the guardian ad litem issue. Are structures in place to deal with the management of the system in its current operation? Are we satisfied we have enough checks and balances in place in the management of this area? The other issue relates to the number of cases where a person is appointed to work with or help a child in a situation where there is a need for that intervention.

Ms Kate Duggan

The court appoints a guardian ad litem to a case and Tusla then funds that. In 2023, that would have been just over €19 million in funding. Certainly, from the point of view of oversight of consistency and regulation, we would welcome the establishment of the GAL office referred to by Mr. Ó Conaill.

Deputy Colm Burke

That office still has not been established.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

There was some brief discussion earlier about this. Work is ongoing at pace. There were delays in previous years but the legislation was enacted in 2022 and we expect a director to be appointed in quarter 2 of this year. There is work ongoing by the team in the Department, with consultancy support, to set up the office, and the director will be hiring additional staff as we set up the office. That process will be ongoing through the year and into next year. We are looking at maybe 70 to 100 staff when the office is fully stood up but, in the meantime, there will be a hybrid mix of full-time salaried and self-employed GALs. There is a lot of work under way at the moment to get that office stood up.

Deputy Colm Burke

With the legislation in place since 2022, is there a need to ensure it is fully implemented and has the structures in place?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

There absolutely is. The Government and the Minister are keen to do that, which is why we are funding the establishment of the office specifically in the budget for this year. Some sections of the Act have already come into effect but the rest of the Act will come into effect on the establishment of the office.

Deputy Colm Burke

What is the number of cases where the courts appoint a guardian ad litem?

Ms Kate Duggan

I do not have the figures to hand but we can certainly get those for the Deputy.

Deputy Colm Burke

Are we talking about 100 people or 500 people? What kind of numbers are we talking about per annum?

Ms Kate Duggan

It will be hundreds.

Deputy Colm Burke

Are there difficulties with the lack of family support a child is to have?

Ms Kate Duggan

It is where the judge believes the child needs an independent legal advocate. Perhaps Ms Murphy can give more detail.

Ms Clare Murphy

It is in a situation where the judge wants somebody who is purely and solely dedicated to bringing the perspective of the child into the court proceedings.

Deputy Colm Burke

Has the number of appointments increased over the past five years?

Ms Clare Murphy

Yes, we have definitely seen a significant increase in cases where a judge is looking to appoint a guardian ad litem.

Deputy Colm Burke

Has it gone up by, say, 100% or 200%?

Ms Clare Murphy

We do not have the figures so I would not like to give a figure, but it has gone up significantly. We can get those figures for the Deputy.

Deputy Colm Burke

I want to move on to another issue. A large number of children are in foster care but there is a certain group for whom foster care is not available. With regard to the accommodation that is needed, does Tusla believe there needs to be substantial additional investment in that area? Is there a clear plan set out for dealing with that?

Ms Clare Murphy

We have a strategy for residential care. What we are seeing emerge is a cohort of children and young people where there are high levels of aggression and complex mental health needs, with some of them involved in criminality and substance misuse. Therefore, aside from that strategy, we are also looking at other ways we can meet the needs of those children and young people rather than a typical registered foster home. We are piloting a semi-independent model at the moment and looking at that. Of the children on our waiting lists, 70 of them are 16 or 17 years of age, and we would not ordinarily place a person of that age in a foster care situation. We would be looking at residential care.

Deputy Colm Burke

What is the number in residential care on any one day?

Ms Kate Duggan

There are 5,613 children in care. Just over 5,000 of those are in foster care, which is 90%, and 408 are in residential care, which would normally be our mainstream residential care, but it might also be special care or a disability placement. We then have 61 young people in a special emergency arrangement.

Deputy Colm Burke

Has there been a substantial increase in that figure and does Tusla anticipate there will be a further increase?

Ms Kate Duggan

I will mention two things. We have seen a slight reduction in the number of children in the care of the State and a maintenance of the number who are in foster care. That continues to be 90%. What we are seeing is that with children and young people - mainly young people - who are coming into residential care or special care, rather than seeing a significant increase in terms of numbers, we are seeing a significant increase in terms of need, which means they cannot go into four-bed placements. They have to go into single or dual occupancy. That is obviously causing a correlating increase in cost to those placements, but it also means we have seen almost a doubling of the number of emergency arrangements we have had to put in place for children where there has been breakdown at home or a breakdown in a residential unit. We have seen a 500% increase in the number of separated children seeking international protection who need to be accommodated by the State.

Deputy Colm Burke

What is the plan after people turn 17 and 18 years of age? These are people who require a substantial degree of support. What mechanisms are in place once they reach the age when it is technically no longer Tusla's responsibility? Is Ms Duggan satisfied that there is sufficient follow-on care? I know it does not come under Tusla's remit.

Ms Kate Duggan

Once children in care reach the age of 18, they are entitled to aftercare support in terms of the support of aftercare workers. There are also financial supports if people are in education or training up until the age of 23.

Deputy Colm Burke

Is Ms Duggan satisfied with the aftercare support system at the minute? It is something I have come across quite a bit. People have got substantial support when they are younger and then as they get older, that support is not in place, and they end up engaging in criminal activity.

Ms Kate Duggan

We also have an aftercare strategy as part of our strategies to improve the supports. However, the biggest concern we hear from both young people in aftercare and from a lot of advocates is that the aftercare financial support is only there where a person is in education or training. Therefore, young people who are over the age of 18 who are not in education or training do not get the same level of financial support. With the difficulties around housing and accommodation, they often feel they go from being in a State response to being in a situation where they are struggling to find accommodation or to get the wraparound supports they need.

Deputy Colm Burke

I will move on to the issue of how the population of the country has substantially changed in the sense that we have huge numbers from abroad. We have more than 530,000 people now working in Ireland who are non-Irish and, therefore, we have a hug number of families where parents are not originally from Ireland. That then poses new challenges within Tusla's area. How is Tusla now developing programmes to deal with the change? For instance, I visited one facility recently in which more than 6,000 people work and there are 95 different nationalities. That must now bring its own challenges. Are we adequately equipped to deal with those new challenges?

Ms Kate Duggan

I will mention a couple of things and then let Ms Murphy come in after me with more information. We have referenced a 10% increase in referrals to our service and we have referenced a doubling of referrals over the last ten years. What we are seeing within that cohort are significantly more children who need a welfare response, a family support response or an earlier intervention response. Some of those people we are seeing are part of the new communities within Ireland. We are part of the child protection conferences, CPCs, which is where the interagency bodies within communities come together to respond to particular needs in that community. Through CPCs, there have been a number of programmes to support new communities. We saw the change in terms of the numbers who have come from Ukraine. With supportive funding from the Minister and Department, we have funded family resource centres and other community and voluntary services to respond to those families to help them integrate into communities. We have also received funding from the Department to look at family support in each of our direct provision centres.

One of the challenges we are seeing now in terms of a need is around training. We are dealing with new cultures with regard to families and how they parent different to the Irish context. There is, therefore, a focus for us now in terms of trying to make sure that first of all, all those new communities know about Tusla and know how to access it and make a referral and get supports but equally, where our staff are being trained and supported in terms of cultural diversity because that is becoming a challenge. Does Ms Murphy want to add anything?

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Murphy might be brief as we have gone way over time.

Deputy Colm Burke

May I ask one more question, Chair?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes. Ms Murphy to respond, please.

Ms Clare Murphy

Together with what Ms Duggan said, there are also obviously issues when child protection and welfare issues emerge. First of all, there is the translation issue and having to employ translators. Then, as Ms Duggan said, there can be a different parenting culture. Something we might not find acceptable in Ireland might be acceptable in other cultures. It is, therefore, getting all those nuances right. However, a lot of interagency support is being offered.

Deputy Colm Burke

Finally, the other issue is unaccompanied children who have come in from abroad. I know quite a number have come in from Ukraine. In any one year, what is the average number of children coming in now? How are we dealing with that?

Ms Kate Duggan

We have seen a 500% increase in terms of the number of referrals to our service from separated children seeking international protection. We have found that has been the response within that, particularly with regard to accommodation. Therefore, we have had to increase capacity. An additional 131 residential beds have gone into the system over the last year. It has also been around supporting those young people to get access to education and supports and help them integrate into the community. At the moment, we have 339 separated children seeking international protection who are being accommodated by Tusla or in care. Certainly, however, there has been a 500% increase in that demand. We have had to respond to more than 1,200 since the war in Ukraine and since the increase in global movement.

An Cathaoirleach

To stay on that theme for a moment, Ms Duggan said there are 1,200 unaccompanied minors. Is that in total in the last two years?

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes, since 2022.

An Cathaoirleach

From all countries?

Ms Kate Duggan

They are from a number of countries. Obviously, in light of the Ukraine war, we saw a significant increase from Ukraine.

An Cathaoirleach

Approximately 600 per year.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

What percentage of those are coming from the Ukraine?

Ms Kate Duggan

I am not sure. I do not have the breakdown, but we can get that to the Chairman very quickly.

Ms Clare Murphy

We do not have that, but we can get it. We can also give the Chairman what countries they are coming from.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. Generally, would it be-----

Mr. Des Delaney

I have those figures here. In 2022, there were 597 referrals-----

An Cathaoirleach

From Ukraine?

Mr. Des Delaney

-----and 261 of those were from Ukraine. In 2023, there were 527 referrals and 177 were from Ukraine.

An Cathaoirleach

Can Mr. Delaney give me those last two figures again?

Mr. Des Delaney

In 2023, 177 out of 527 were from Ukraine.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, it was between 30% and 50%. Obviously, when unaccompanied minors arrive, Tusla has to provide for them. People obviously------

Ms Kate Duggan

Just to say, there were days that seven, eight and nine people were turning up in our office in one day.

An Cathaoirleach

This problem has been landed on Tusla. I do not want to say it is a problem but the responsibility for this has landed into Tusla's office. I want to try to figure out what is happening here. Tusla had 1,200 children in two years and approximately 600 of those - 550 or so - were from Ukraine. Has Mr. Delaney's Department contacted the Ukrainian Embassy to find out why and how minors are getting on aeroplanes in Ukraine and arriving here?

Mr. Des Delaney

We have raised some issues, not specifically-----

An Cathaoirleach

Not this specific issue.

Mr. Des Delaney

I have not raised that specific issue.

An Cathaoirleach

Why is that?

Mr. Des Delaney

I have not had that conversation with the embassy.

An Cathaoirleach

We have children arriving in this country and this has landed on Tusla's doorstep at a time when we are under huge pressure. I will refer to the staffing issues and what is being done in a minute. I know Ms Duggan is trying to take some measures to get on top of this. However, we have huge resources issues and huge problems with getting suitable accommodation. The tap is still turned on and the sink is overflowing. These people in Tusla have been handed this issue. Where does it begin and end?

Why has this not been taken up with Ukraine? By the way, the ambassador is very accessible. She is a very nice woman. We have met her. She is trying to deal with the difficult situation of the illegal invasion of her country by Russia.

Mr. Des Delaney

I wish to clarify that. The Department may have raised that issue before my time as chief social worker. I will need to go back and check that.

An Cathaoirleach

It needs to be raised.

Mr. Des Delaney

I am part of a forum on the Council of Europe with other member states looking at Ukraine. We have had several conferences on the issue, looking at data and referrals.

An Cathaoirleach

As a country, we have welcomed more than 100,000 people, including in Mr. Delaney's home town, who are in modular accommodation, and that is a good thing to do. It is not acceptable, however, for a country that has relied on this small State to take in more than 100,000 people to somehow have a laissez-faire attitude towards minors arriving here. I ask that the Department take this up with the Department of Justice and the embassy. There is a responsibility on the Ukrainian authorities to ensure that minors are not getting on planes unaccompanied. There are other countries that are the worst offenders in terms of allowing minors on planes.

Ms Kate Duggan

That would be Syria, Afghanistan and Eritrea.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand there is conflict in those countries and the systems may not be functioning as well as they ought to be, but it is a very basic thing that airport checks are done. My God, a minor would not get out of this country unaccompanied, or it would be very difficult to do so. Which age categories are arriving here?

Ms Kate Duggan

The majority are over the age of 16. Last week, we had approximately 115 separated children being accommodated in emergency accommodation and within that group, 96% were over 16 and they were predominantly male.

An Cathaoirleach

Of those, 96% are over 16.

Ms Kate Duggan

And they are predominantly male.

An Cathaoirleach

Are any of them over 18?

Ms Kate Duggan

We are facing a challenge in this regard. In the context of the legislation and the statutory obligations of agencies, these young people turn up at a port or airport and the first level of screening is at the International Protection Office, IPO. Under its------

An Cathaoirleach

That is under the aegis of the Department of Justice.

Ms Kate Duggan

-----legislation, it determines the age of the young person. Where it believes the child may be a minor, it refers to Tusla. There has been a significant increase in the number of people being referred where, due to the nature of the documentation that is being presented, it is very difficult for us to determine if they are eligible. We are only determining if they are eligible for services under the Childcare Act.

An Cathaoirleach

The Department is handling the child or young person. I accept that.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes. We have to apply the benefit principle but, where we have a concern, it creates a risk. We have to make sure that anybody we suspect may be over 18 is not placed in an arrangement with anybody under 18. We have had to establish separate units. If there is a concern about a person's age, he or she is placed in a different unit.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Duggan is saying that some of these young people may be over 18 and they have to be separated from people who are genuinely under 18. This adds to the problem. The responsibility for checking this falls to the IPO, which is under the Department of Justice. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth looks after accommodation. I want to get to the bottom of this. Are the checks being carried out at the IPO insufficient? I know there is nobody from that office this here morning. This is a question for Mr. Delaney.

Mr. Des Delaney

This issue falls under sections 13 and 14 of the International Protection Act. Our Department, along with the IPO and the Department of Justice, is having a series of core group meetings. We are looking at that specific assessment process. The Department of Justice and the IPO are presenting a paper to the core group meeting for review next week. We are making considerable progress on the issues raised with regard to age assessments.

An Cathaoirleach

To read between the lines, the committee can take it that 19-, 20- and 21-year-olds have turned up.

Mr. Des Delaney

Where there is a disputed age assessment process, there are rights involved. A number of judicial reviews have taken place. There is a willingness to make progress on that issue, however. We have made substantial progress in the past couple of months.

An Cathaoirleach

The issue of going back through the chain of checks and determining who is responsible has come up in other areas with other Departments that have appeared before the committee. I ask that the Department take this up actively with the Department of Justice. The current situation is not acceptable. I preface this by making the point that we have to help those children who are genuinely under 18 who arrive unaccompanied. That goes without saying. I am not going down the other road. Is there a minor industry operating here, with young people who do not fit into the category where they should be arriving at Tusla's door being put on planes? The number who are arriving is bonkers. There is also the issue of the cost. We have gone through the cost of keeping them, as well as the problem with staffing and all the rest. The fact that 96% are over 16 raises a concern. Can that be followed up with the Ukrainian Embassy?

Mr. Des Delaney

Absolutely. We will do that. We have another-----

An Cathaoirleach

There need to be sufficient airport checks in place to make sure those who are presenting as children are children, but we also need to address the issue of how they are being allowed to leave the country unaccompanied.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

We can follow up with Ukraine. In the context of the figures provided by Mr. Delaney, however, Ukraine is a much lower driver now of separated children and a decreasing driver of the growth in separated children. That should be noted, but we will follow up on the issue.

An Cathaoirleach

We need to help the ones who are genuine and we cannot do so if we have a system that is too loose and not rule-based.

On staffing, I refer to the drop in the number of social workers. We spoke about the CDNTs and CAMHS. That has a consequence that I, as a public representative, find very frustrating. I get a significant number of complaints about it. If the children are not receiving those services, they finish up with Tusla in many cases, unfortunately. There were reports in September that Tusla was short 340 social workers and 244 social care workers. I have several questions in that regard. Are social care workers now being asked to do the work of social workers?

Ms Kate Duggan

I will let Ms Murphy answer that question. We have employed social care workers in vacant social work roles to do-----

Ms Clare Murphy

There are certain statutory functions, such as those relating to court and taking children into care, that can only be done by a professionally registered social worker, but there are many other functions that are well able to be done by childcare workers who are professionally trained. Although we have always employed childcare workers, one of the things we have had to do in the context of the deficit in social work is to look at the tasks that were traditionally done by a social worker but are within the competence and capability of social care workers. We have allocated those pieces of work to social care workers. There are no social care workers doing tasks that can only be done by a professional qualified social worker, however.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. What are the current figures? The report back in September stated the deficit was 340 social workers and 244 social care workers. The figures provided this morning indicate there are far fewer vacancies now, but there has not been significant recruitment. Is Ms Duggan saying that report was inaccurate?

Ms Kate Duggan

No. Part of this relates to the aggressive recruitment drives we have made in the context of social work, social care and other positions. In addition, as Ms Murphy outlined, we have looked at the tasks that have to be done within the agency. Where those tasks are administrative, it is possible for us to employ administrators and try to rebalance that. From 2022 to 2023, we increased by approximately 94 or 96 the number of social care workers within the agency. There has been an increase in that regard but the fact remains that we would need approximately 200 more social workers to make sure we can do everything we want to do, such as to ensure every child is allocated to a social worker, reach full compliance levels and remove the communication issues and challenges that were referred to today.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Duggan stated that we need approximately 500 a year.

Ms Kate Duggan

Across the country. That is across health, justice and------

An Cathaoirleach

Local authorities need social workers in many cases. Ms Duggan outlined a number of matters on which Tusla is collaborating with a university in Scotland. It is also dealing with the Department of further and higher education.

Mention was made of apprenticeships, which would be brilliant to be brought on stream. I am not sure how we will get around this. It is a societal issue. It is about apprenticeships in general. Some other European countries, Germany in particular, use apprenticeships - including for the trade of two of the witnesses, namely accountancy - to allow people to train and earn, which is a great ethos. You get a great quality workforce out of it. There is a stigma about apprenticeships in this country. The first thing every young one and young fella wants is to go to college. Some of them go to college and it continues on and on. We need to get people into the workforce earlier. In some cases, we need to use the apprenticeship model. How do we get around the stigma around apprenticeships in the case of social workers? It would be a great opportunity if it could be used.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

We are very excited about this development and are working through it. It is still in draft but we hope to get advertising in May or June of this year. Given the requirement is so pressing, we have found by and large the existing system is very welcoming of the potential for an apprenticeship. This will be a level 9 qualification and is coming through a regulator. CORU is involved and is party to our discussions on that. We are moving. It is a broader question.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it a four-year apprenticeship?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

Two years. We have work-based learning. This is in partnership with UCC, which has been outstanding in terms of being innovative, working with us and progressing. Initially it is UCC-----

An Cathaoirleach

For the person coming out of secondary school, explain the pathway. To get to an apprenticeship, what do they have to do?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

For social work as it currently stands, because this is a master's degree qualification, the entry criteria we are looking at are an undergraduate degree with a broad basis of social policy or recognition of prior learning. When we advertise, we will look at candidates with an undergraduate degree or lived experience and an interest. We had an excellent report from Dr. Joe Mooney in UCD, commissioned and funded by the Department of children. It is entitled Pathways to Social Work. We can share it with members; it is on the website. A strong recommendation coming-----

An Cathaoirleach

After coming out of secondary school, could a person be a qualified social worker in four or five years?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

I would say six years.

An Cathaoirleach

It is still quite long, is it not?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

It is, but we are not going to-----

An Cathaoirleach

They would be in paid employment after three years.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

We will not fix this in a minute. The fact-----

An Cathaoirleach

I know. At what stage would they be in paid employment? If they leave school at 18, then they have to do their-----

Ms Rosarii Mannion

Undergraduate degree.

An Cathaoirleach

-----undergraduate degree. Will that take two years?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

It is three to four years, followed by a master's degree, so you are looking at five, whereas the apprenticeship will be two years.

An Cathaoirleach

So they could be in paid employment by 22 or 23 years of age.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

Yes. As the CEO has outlined, there are numerous strategies in place but, unfortunately, none of them will deliver in a minute. It is a long-term strategy.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

We have established the social work employers forum, in which we work closely with other employers and university providers. We find the education system very positive and proactive in working with us. Our initial target is to double the supply of social work in the next three years. We could actually triple it, if we look at the socioeconomic issues we face as a country.

An Cathaoirleach

I just wanted to get a picture of what is happening there. Tusla's budget has increased this year to about €1.1 billion. That gives it capacity. The balance of admin, management and front-line staff has been covered. The witnesses have explained why they are using admin in some cases to supplement and support people on the front line and carry some of the workload. Is it the case that the HSE is poaching staff? Are many social workers moving over to the HSE?

Ms Clare Murphy

We are getting some going to the HSE - I would not say a lot - and some going to probation.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there any two-way traffic?

Ms Clare Murphy

We have had 150 rehires and some of those came from the HSE.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

It is a competitive market. We do entry as well as exit interviews. We have dedicated retention officers. We do entry interviews, exit interviews and stay interviews because unfortunately-----

An Cathaoirleach

On the exit interviews, what percentage roughly are moving into the private sector?

Ms Kate Duggan

The main one is where a professionally qualified social worker moves into self-employment as a GAL. It is mainly in our residential services.

An Cathaoirleach

What percentage? Is it 20% or 50%?

Ms Rosarii Mannion

I would say it is about 20%

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will the witnesses confirm whether the other two excluded providers were for-profit providers?

Ms Kate Duggan

There were two in total, and they were.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So the other one was a for-profit provider as well. Will the witnesses give us the top ten providers for 2022, from the point of view of amounts?

Mr. Pat Smyth

We can. We published these in a previous document. There is one company called Baig and Mirza; it is almost €13 million.

Ms Kate Duggan

We can talk to it but, rather than the Deputy having to take notes, we can furnish her with it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The top is €13 million. Was the one for €10 million over-----

Mr. Pat Smyth

That was over a number of years. This is a one-year figure I am giving here.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So where would that fall within the ranking?

Mr. Pat Smyth

In 2023, it was seventh.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

These are all for-profit providers.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Correct.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So how in total much did Tusla pay in 2022?

Ms Kate Duggan

The information we are giving the Deputy now is for 2023.

Mr. Pat Smyth

It was just over €71 million. That covers all services for kids who are mainstream Tusla, as well as services for kids from abroad, unaccompanied minors.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Moving on to something else, Tusla is trying to open those nine units. I heard the word "trying". What are the impediments?

Ms Kate Duggan

There are two things. We got the funding for those units. The units have to be brought to a standard to meet HIQA compliance levels, fire and safety and so on. We are buying properties-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

How long would that take?

Ms Kate Duggan

It can vary but around 12 months.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Nine to 12 months.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is even after Tusla has done modifications and things like that.

Mr. Pat Smyth

It takes that time to buy the house and get it modified up to standards. Hopefully, in an ideal space alongside that, we will be able to recruit the staff. That has been a challenge for us.

Ms Kate Duggan

That is the challenge.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

So there is not an impediment other than those kinds of things. I remember, for example, in a domestic violence refuge there was an issue with funding additional rooms and things. There is nothing like that.

Ms Kate Duggan

No.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Jack Power wrote an article in The Irish Times in July of last year stating that figures from May showed that Tusla was dealing with 22,740 open cases, some 5,800 of which had not been allocated social workers. Tusla is reconfiguring things. The witnesses do not need to go back over that because I understand it but how many unallocated cases has it got at this stage?

Ms Clare Murphy

Currently we have 5,331 cases unallocated to a social worker but the majority of those have an allocated worker, be it a family support worker or a childcare worker. We have to do a return on those unallocated to a social worker, so that is the figure.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It has not changed dramatically.

Ms Clare Murphy

It is down 20%. Between January 2023 and December 2023, we achieved a 20% reduction in our unallocated cases.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Would the 5,800 last year have had somebody allocated to them?

Ms Clare Murphy

The majority would have had somebody allocated to them.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What is the average caseload?

Ms Clare Murphy

It is very hard to give an average. We have a caseload weighting system, so it would depend. For example, if you were a social worker allocated to a child requiring special care whose case is before the High Court, it would require a significant amount of your time, whereas if you were allocated to a quite stable child in a foster home, it would not require so much. Therefore, it is very hard. Everywhere across Europe struggles on the question of the exact caseload, but there are approximately 15 to 20 cases per-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

What would be regarded as the ideal?

Ms Clare Murphy

I would say that 12 children in care and maybe 15 child protection cases would be ideal.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We are above the ideal.

Ms Clare Murphy

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Is Tusla funded to get to the ideal? What is it funded for?

Ms Clare Murphy

We are funded to get to the ideal but we have people opposite social work posts. As Ms Duggan said, in an ideal world there would be a social worker allocated to a case. Now, there might be a childcare worker working on some of the caseload but not all of it. In an ideal world, we would create 200 new social work posts. That is what we need in the system to be-----

Ms Kate Duggan

Deputy Catherine Murphy said we are here clapping ourselves on the back. I certainly hope that is not the way we are coming across. We recognise that improvements have been made in the agency and that we have more improvements to make. We recognise that we need to respond better and more quickly, with much more focus on early intervention. Our reform programme that we have articulated – members will see our corporate plan is about to be published – gives a very clear roadmap. When we examine the increase in referrals to us, which I have referred to, we see that 45% of those referrals need what we call a welfare response. Today, they are a low priority. They get a screening or an overview and maybe a response at a level that ensures they are safe or able to access the service. We recognise that, to be strategic and prevent children and families from struggling further down the line, we must give a much more responsive service in the welfare space. That will require investment over the next three years, but that will also require a new type of workforce. These people need supports in respect of addiction, counselling, mental health and family therapies. With regard to the reform programme, we envisage that each of our 30 networks will have one multidisciplinary team at the front door that will screen the referrals and identify the responses the children need there and then, either through Tusla or one of our commissioned services. While we are resourced to do what we are doing today, we will need significant investment over the next three years to implement the change programme if we want to do things differently and do things that will be more transformative.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Are the multidisciplinary teams in addition to the HSE’s multidisciplinary teams?

Ms Kate Duggan

This would be for Tulsa. Right now, all the referrals to us go through a child protection response. A social worker has to examine each and say it either meets the threshold for harm or risk of harm, meaning a child protection response, or relates to welfare, which would be of lower priority and may be referred for commissioned services. We want to make sure that, at the front door, we have our social care and social work staff, perhaps a psychology assistant, a family support therapist and our administrative staff screening to ask what the child needs, the best response or how he or she should be referred to an appropriate service.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Let me return to the family resource centre programme. There are 121 centres around the country and €21 million was spent on them in 2022. If there is not a family resource centre in-----

Ms Kate Duggan Tusla

There was just over €100 million spent on them and €20 million spent on parenting and counselling.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. There is no centre in my constituency. Does that mean you do not get the services at all?

Ms Kate Duggan

We are looking at how allocations were made historically where family resource centres, Barnardos or some of a variety of community and voluntary sector organisations were in areas, but we must also account for what we have not been so good at across the public sector. In this regard, I can talk about the work we are doing in Tusla now. It is a question of looking at the smaller population of what is going to be a network and determining its child population, its number of families, the deprivation index, the services that are already available, how we use the money we commission, and how we ensure the resource we have is being used as appropriately as it should be to meet the needs of the population where evidence has been found that inputs are working. Regarding the likes of Laois-Offaly, Louth-Meath and some pockets in areas around the country that have an inadequate number of commissioned services, we are trying to bring a baseline balance back. Again, that will require investment. If we are considering networks and the needs within the associated communities, it is a matter of determining how we can do better with what we have, which is the focus of the child poverty unit, and also, with our Department, the services children and families need in those communities.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

That is the preventative piece. The preventative piece may require an investment but there is a big return on it-----

Ms Kate Duggan

Huge.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

-----when you examine the cost–benefit outcome by comparison with the high-end investment required when failure happens.

Ms Kate Duggan

Over the next three years, we have to try to keep the system operationally safe and do our very best with some of the young people we have described today who are in emergency arrangements and have complex needs, but we must also transform how we do things. For us and the executive, there is currently an equal focus on reforming how we do things and trying to keep the system as safe as possible.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

We are asked every five years to fill out a census form. There was an exception during the Covid period, which pushed us back a year. I always encourage people to do so. We are told through an elaborate advertising campaign on each occasion that the forms need to be filled out so that services can be provided and demographic shifts and the like can be tracked, yet there is very little evidence that census returns are used to have an objective resource allocation approach to decision-making. It is very static.

Ms Kate Duggan

With regard to our resource allocation as part of the transformation programme, through our work over the past year we now know that, across the 30 networks and based on indices related to the population, the child population, deprivation and expected growth in terms of community development plans, in addition to many other indicators, we will have for the first time a geospatial mapping exercise by network that will help us to identify needs within each network. This is information we will be able to give the Department through the Estimates process in terms of identifying where there is need. Need has two aspects: how we are using our current resources and how we use these better. Addressing this will require political support. Where there is concern about the evidence base of the programme or the work of an agency that is given money, it is a matter of reconfiguring some of the resources together to better meet the needs of the population if necessary.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Duggan. On the residential care companies and different entities, am I correct in saying Tusla is funding around 640 entities in total? I am referring to residential care companies and section 56 organisations.

Mr. Pat Smyth

No, the 640 we are talking about are the community and voluntary organisations. We fund-----

An Cathaoirleach

So that is just community and voluntary.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes, and that is across the whole gamut of services. That includes-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am trying to separate it out. The section 56 organisations are the community and voluntary organisations.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Are the private residential companies included in that?

Mr. Pat Smyth

No, they are not. There is a much smaller number there.

An Cathaoirleach

How many private care companies are being used?

Mr. Pat Smyth

We will come back to the Chair on that when we have a list of what we call the SEAs, which are the current ones we are talking about this morning, but there is a whole suite of private residential companies in addition. We will get the Chair a full picture.

An Cathaoirleach

What kinds of numbers have we? What is the range?

Ms Kate Duggan

There are about 21 private providers providing services for special emergency arrangements.

In terms of our residential providers-----

Mr. Pat Smyth

I would suggest there are less - 15. It is probably within that space.

An Cathaoirleach

There are approximately 36 in total.

Ms Kate Duggan

We will get that to the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

What proportion of Tusla's budget will be used up in those 36?

Mr. Pat Smyth

The accounts are showing a figure for 2022. It is in the private figure.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Is it the independent placement provision?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It is the independent placements, yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Residential provision, €161 million.

Mr. Pat Smyth

A total of €161 million. It is about 16%.

An Cathaoirleach

How many places did we have for that? This was for 2022.

Ms Kate Duggan

At the moment, we have about 486 young people in care. We also have 61 mainstream young people and 115 SEAs.

An Cathaoirleach

Would Tusla be looking at more than €400,000 per year per child?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes, for a standard placement.

An Cathaoirleach

Up to €750,000.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes. It depends how many children are in the unit.

An Cathaoirleach

Because some of them have to be in single. They are astronomical sums.

A lot start-up companies are getting involved in this. Are they all checked at the beginning to see whether they are tax-compliant?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

With regard to the Garda vetting of staff, if I want to be involved with my local under-18 soccer team, I have to have Garda vetting. Even if I have Garda vetting for my job, I need to have Garda vetting. If I am involved with the scouts, I still need to go and get a third set of it, which, I think, is crazy. I am in favour of Garda vetting but I fail to understand, and I have a parliamentary question in around it, why people need to have multiple Garda vetting certificates.

It is clear that one company did not have Garda vetting. The company received in excess of €10 million, I think Ms Duggan said earlier on. That company-----

Ms Kate Duggan

A sum of €4 million.

An Cathaoirleach

It received significant sums over a three-year period. Why was the absence of Garda vetting not seen earlier?

Ms Kate Duggan

It is two things. We talked about the section 56 services that we fund through community and voluntary. As part of their contract, they have to provide us with an assurance that they have up-to-date Garda vetting.

An Cathaoirleach

They would be fairly compliant.

Ms Kate Duggan

That is the expectation. Within the private sector that HIQA inspects and that are registered and regulated, there is an expectation they have Garda vetting and they have to provide that.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it an expectation or assurance? Ms Duggan mentioned assurances earlier on.

Ms Kate Duggan

They are monitored by HIQA and they are regulated. Where we had a concern----

An Cathaoirleach

Who is checking the Garda certificate?

Ms Kate Duggan

That would all be part of their registration.

An Cathaoirleach

So it is HIQA or Tusla.

Ms Kate Duggan

It would be HIQA or our registration inspection team if it is a private centre.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it checked on an annual basis for staff?

Ms Kate Duggan

No. It is where there is an assurance given. It is important to say this is the same for every State agency, as I understand it, that engages either through section 56 or through private.

An Cathaoirleach

However, Ms Duggan's agency is working with vulnerable young children.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes. Where we see the high risk is the ones that are unregulated. That is why we brought in our own system to actually physically see the vetting, that an assurance was not enough.

An Cathaoirleach

I know Tusla is trying to deal with it. I am mindful of the fact it is dealing with huge demand, but would it be fair to say that the number of audits for basic information such that the staff are Garda vetted needs to be increased-----

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes, that there is more audits done.

An Cathaoirleach

-----and is it the intention of Tusla to do that?

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Duggan mentioned a figure between €400,000 and €750,000, which is a huge sum. I want to ask the assistant secretary about what the Ombudsman for Children decreed on the special emergency care arrangements. Is Mr. Ó Conaill aware of that?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

Specifically, on what?

An Cathaoirleach

To the special emergency arrangements. The Ombudsman for Children, as I understand it, had something to say about this in the not-to-distant past. Is Mr. Ó Conaill aware of that?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

In relation to particular cases or-----

An Cathaoirleach

In relation to the use of them generally.

Ms Kate Duggan

That they should be phased out.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

That is no different from what the Department's view is or what the Minister's view is; these are not optimal arrangements and there needs to be a plan. There is a plan in place - it has been set out by the CEO and her colleagues here in relation to investment in residential care. There is a increase in funding going in. We do not want to rely on special emergency arrangements but it is important that the commitment understands there is a significant difference between so-called section 5 arrangements for separated children seeking international protection and one third of the children who are in special emergency arrangements who are children in care. Two different standard operating procedures are applied.

An Cathaoirleach

Do the international protection ones make up one third?

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

Two thirds for separated children and one third for children in care.

An Cathaoirleach

Two thirds of the children are in international protection. They are the unaccompanied minors who are arriving.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask Ms Murphy about the different types of accommodation. Hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation have to be used at times. How does that work where there must be 24-hour staff? I am trying to work out the practicalities of that. How does that happen? If a person is running a bed and breakfast accommodation, a small hotel or whatever and Tusla has a child or a minor who requires supervision 24 hours a day, how does that happen in bed and breakfast accommodation or in a hotel? I can picture the difficulties.

Ms Clare Murphy

There have to be two people at all times. There could be more than one child. You could have-----

An Cathaoirleach

Do they stay in the hotel or bed and breakfast accommodation as well?

Ms Clare Murphy

They stay there as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Tusla would have to book three rooms.

Ms Clare Murphy

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

It is the practicalities of that I had question around. I call Deputy McAuliffe. The Deputy had to pop out on other important business.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The benefit of being in the committee room is we cannot hear the bells going off that are outside. The housing committee has had a series of votes. I apologise if I cover areas that have been covered, although I heard earlier some of the contributions on yesterday's controversy around placing people in accommodation where documents had been - maybe there is no better word than - "fabricated". I take some of those answers and I will not revisit that issue.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy should preface what he is saying with the word "allegedly".

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Exactly, yes. It was reported, obviously.

I asked Mr. Gloster to respond to the Ballymun - A Brighter Future report. As Ms Duggan will be aware, it was commissioned by Dublin City Council and it sought to address the issue of the challenge of the lack of social workers within the north city area. One of the recommendations of the report was that a number of senior social workers would be appointed, the idea being that people would be more likely to take up a senior social worker position and that they would stay in the area for a longer period. A total of 15 was identified, not only for the Ballymun areas but for the wider area. Could Ms Duggan comment on that issue and how Tusla might respond to the report?

Ms Kate Duggan

I will pass the Deputy over to Ms Mannion, the director of people and change. What the Deputy is talking about there is the senior practitioner grade, which is a grade that is there in terms of promotional opportunity for people where they have extended responsibilities. What is really important to us and what this talks to in Ballymun, and across the system because it has to be equitable across the agency, is where we have career pathways for social workers. Ms Mannion will give the Deputy a brief update on that.

Ms Rosarii Mannion

I thank the Deputy. We are aware of that report. In the next three weeks, we will move to implementation in relation to career pathways, which will look at increasing the numbers. I am happy to come back to the Deputy with the specifics of what that will look like for the Ballymun region.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Maybe, to take some of that discussion offline, Ms Mannion might not be aware that the Taoiseach has appointed Mr. John Costello as the co-ordinator for the implementation board for Ballymun to respond to that report with the expectation that senior decision-makers in each of the organisations would come together to examine the actions needed. I ask Tusla to give a commitment that it will engage with that.

Ms Kate Duggan

We have given a commitment to it.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Excellent. That is fantastic. It is really good news. As I said to the Taoiseach, I could make the same arguments about lots of different areas in my constituency.

Local community safety partnerships would be a key way of doing that.

Ms Kate Duggan

I met Commissioner Harris and the Policing Authority last Friday to explore those opportunities with regard to community safety and to make sure Tusla is front and centre of those discussions. It is back to the interagency piece. That is as much about our co-ordination and collaboration with An Garda Síochána and youth justice, as it is with the HSE and other providers of services. Tusla wants to be at that table. I sit on a group that was set up by the Department of the Taoiseach relating to the pilot sites it is looking at for the integration of agencies within particular communities such as in Dundalk, Rathlkeale, County Limerick and different areas. Tusla certainly would have senior people at those tables because we totally see-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I believe Ballymun has been added to that list.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I welcome that with the caveat that there has to be a continued engagement over decades because when area-based partnerships were set up as the local development companies, as they were in the 1990s, it was for this very reason to bring together the ETBs, the HSE and so on. What happened was the rank of official, particularly within the HSE, reduced over time. Fewer people who were able to make decisions were attending. Different officials were sent all the time. Then it got to the point when a strategic decision was made to withdraw from them. Those local development companies were essentially turned into service level agreement delivery organisations for social protection and, guess what? We need a new area-based intervention and here we are now with this model. Given the position Tusla is in, it has wide access to the children who are directly impacted.

I will turn to an issue that I have had a lot of interaction on. It relates to another recommendation in the Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures report, which is to try to target children who are, although I hate that term, involved in school avoidance who might be placed on reduced timetables by schools, and who may come from very problematic homes and are not engaging with school. I compliment Oliver Callan from RTÉ who covered this area really well earlier this week. I was with St. John's Education Centre, which provides a school intervention programme where it takes children out of school for six weeks and works with the child and sends the child back to school. It was established by the La Salle trust and by the Holy Faith Sisters and it is now looking to try to be mainstreamed. I believe Jacinta Stewart in the Department of Education has carried out a review in this area and proposals will come forward. Again, there is an opportunity for Tusla to feed in there because while it is dealing with some of the most vulnerable children, in some cases they are the same children, but in others these interventions prevent that next step. If Tusla could add its voice to those interventions-----

Ms Kate Duggan

I am not sure it is widely understood that educational support services are positioned in and are part of Tusla. Obviously the policy for that service sits within the Department of Education and under the performance statement of the Minister for Education but we are responsible for the educational support service. We fund the homeschool liaison service and we garner the funding around the school completion programmes.

There are two aspects that we see. It is how we strengthen integration internally within Tusla to make sure our child welfare, child protection and education systems are better integrated to make sure we are responding in a more integrated way to children. Equally, when we met Commissioner Harris and with Mr. Finucane and the members of An Garda Síochána, including the assistant commissioner who has responsibility for juvenile liaison, we recognised the need for that integration with educational welfare officers. Over the past two years, Tusla has received significant additional funding from the Department of Education for investment in educational welfare officers and all the other investments that have been made across the education system. There is a real opportunity there for better integration and support. Trying to balance the time that is going on having access to a place in school and being able to find a place in school will actually be how services are coming together to respond to those. We know that children who do not attend State school, who are absent or who are refusing school are the red flags for us in terms of the other matters of concern.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The other issue identified in the report, which has an application across all of the areas Tusla works, is the idea that while social workers are key to interventions, their work could also be augmented or supplemented by, for example, youth workers or family support workers.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I understand in the crisis in the recruitment of social workers, youth workers who are not necessarily based with youth services would be a beneficial step. I will give an example. I met the principal of Trinity Comprehensive in Ballymun and we were talking about the issue of school avoidance and again they raised the difficulty with me. A child comes into school, there is a crisis for that child that may involve mental health and the child may need to go to a service. A teacher, an SNA or somebody else has to be deployed to bring that child to the intervention. What happens is, of course they do that in that scenario, but it is not a social worker doing it, it is a teacher or an SNA. A school like that then becomes chronically disabled by the large number of children who need those engagements every day. Of course, the school does everything it can to help the child but the difficulty is that it just does not have the manpower, the remit or the expertise. Often there can be "compassion burnout". I am sure Ms Duggan is familiar with that. Then those children get put onto those reduced timetables just for the school to try to disengage. The model of referral and transfer and the support of education is very important. I ask Ms Duggan to use the new models there, both the child poverty unit and these new area based interventions. Tusla are involved in both and I hope it will it do everything it can to try to ensure that roll-out. I think Ms Duggan has indicated that.

Ms Kate Duggan

Through our area-based childhood, ABC, programme we are funding a number of therapeutic staff within schools so it is also looking at school based supports.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

There is a huge array of initiatives. At our recent joint policing committee meeting where we discussed all of this, we were not aware of the vast amount of what Tusla was doing because Tusla is not part of the joint policing committee and, therefore, it was not able to pick up on the hotspots and all of the other stuff, the incidents where our local park might have 30 or 40 kids gathering on a Friday night and how those children might be in danger. I have used my opportunity here at the committee to talk about policy issues and I appreciate the latitude the Chair has given me on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I can bring the Deputy back in if he has another couple of questions. I will revert to capacity and accommodation with regard to the nine houses the we have gone through some of the shortcomings and risks with the private sector. In terms of the nine homes Tusla has purchased, what is potential the capacity of those?

Ms Kate Duggan

The potential capacity would be 36 children because it will be four children if it is a mainstream residential unit. In terms of some of the demands that are there if we want to reduce our special emergency arrangements, of the 61 young people who are in them one of the things we see is that those young people are settling better in single occupancy, particularly when they are 16 and 17 years of age. They settle better in what is a single occupancy arrangement.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that one child per house?

Ms Kate Duggan

Or one to an apartment.

An Cathaoirleach

Approximately ten care staff will be tied up between shift rotation and weekend hours. It takes approximately ten staff sometimes.

Mr. Pat Smyth

It takes almost eleven staff with holidays and whatever else in that.

An Cathaoirleach

When will Tusla be able to fully utilise the capacity?

Ms Kate Duggan

Two of them will be ready in the next number of weeks. However, the issue is the recruitment campaigns Tusla has run to staff them have not given us the level of staffing we need so we are back out recruiting on a rolling, targeted campaign For careworkers to try to get staff. One of the things we have done as well in terms of separated children is we had a Tusla facility in County Tipperary that was not being utilised fully. We refurbished it and opened it and it is with the support of Focus Ireland and its staff that we are able to run that facility. We are looking at all options in terms of even a partnership approach to the community and voluntary sector to help us to staff facilities. The workforce challenge is the biggest challenge we have.

An Cathaoirleach

When does Tusla hope to have them fully utilised?

Ms Kate Duggan

We hope they will be in place by the summer of this year, but the staffing is the only-----

Mr. Pat Smyth

The two units

Ms Kate Duggan

The two units and the other ones into the end of this year or early next year.

Mr. Pat Smyth

The units are being completed in terms of the capital-----

An Cathaoirleach

There are nine in to utilised. When does Tusla hope to have the staff?

Ms Kate Duggan

I hope if we are here this time next year that we will have all nine open.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, it will take a year.

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Is some of that as a result of physical works to the house-----

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

-----both capital works and staffing issues?

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I will refer to a company - I have to be careful with this - and what has been reported in relation to fabricated Garda vetting, fabricated references and fabricated accounts of conversations with fictitious people who do not exist. Has Tusla involved An Garda Síochána in its investigations of some companies?

Ms Kate Duggan

Whenever we have any concern that there is any type of criminal activity, we refer that to An Garda Síochána. We have referred two companies to An Garda Síochána. Also, if we think that another public service is utilising those companies, we will let them know of our concerns.

An Cathaoirleach

We will not go any further into that because it is in the hands of An Garda Síochána.

I want to ask about the budget. The budget has increased but as I understand it, it has been reported that Tusla has looked for an extra €260 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that Tusla has to ask for enough. It got in the region of €100 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Pat Smyth

We got almost €120 million from the Department of Education and almost €4 million from the Department of Justice.

Ms Kate Duggan

That was for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV.

An Cathaoirleach

What types of additional changes were Tusla not able to make because it received approximately €150 million less than what it needed?

Ms Kate Duggan

At the end of 2023, we needed a supplementary budget of €84 million.

Mr. Pat Smyth

It was €82 million.

Ms Kate Duggan

It was €82 million and we got that.

An Cathaoirleach

Was that at the end of 2023?

Ms Kate Duggan

Yes. That was supplementary to the existing level of spending. Additional to our existing level of spending, we got an investment into some residential services, responding to separated children seeking international protection and increases to the foster care allowance.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I apologise, €84 million was the supplementary figure we got at the end of 2023 to cover all of that. As Ms Duggan said, a large part of that was driven by the demand on the residential costs. Even in terms of €250 million-----

An Cathaoirleach

What percentage was that? Would it have been 60%, 70% or 80%?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It would have been 70%.

Ms Kate Duggan

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

It was to make up the shortfall.

Mr. Colm Ó Conaill

It was €59 million out of €84 million.

Ms Kate Duggan

That was for residential.

An Cathaoirleach

Therefore, €60 million was needed because of private accommodation.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes. Regarding the investment for this year, as Ms Duggan said, we got an extra €10 million to support the increase in foster care allowances. This was referred to earlier. The commitment has been to raise them and we have now raised the weekly foster care allowances by just over 9%. By the end of the year, those rates will be up to 20% extra. That is quite a significant increase in those.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Smyth will obviously have to do some forecasting for the rest of the year.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

He will be looking at where the pounds, shillings and pence will fall. Is there a possibility that any part of the services will be frozen, stood down or have to be suspended, given current budget levels?

Mr. Pat Smyth

My response to that is that none of us can predict where the demand will come from.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Tusla have a particular area of urgency?

Mr. Pat Smyth

Absolutely. The kids who are coming from abroad are a major challenge in terms of allocating housing. The housing for separated children is a key issue. If there is going to be a challenge this year, it will be in that space.

An Cathaoirleach

Does that include the unaccompanied minors?

Mr. Pat Smyth

That is correct.

An Cathaoirleach

Two thirds of them are unaccompanied minors coming from abroad.

Mr. Pat Smyth

That is correct.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the point I was making earlier and this needs to be followed up on.

Mr. Pat Smyth

Regarding that number, the projections are quite strong. That is an area that is demand-led; we cannot refuse a kid a bed in that space. We therefore just have to get those beds for them.

An Cathaoirleach

They arrive on Tusla's doorstep.

I ask Mr. Delaney or Mr. Ó Conaill to come back to the committee with a note on what will be actively done now to work with the Department of Justice, which is in charge of the IPO, and the Department of Foreign Affairs. Those two Departments might send us back a note in the next two or three weeks or so. What steps will be taken now? What will be pursued so that Tusla can work with the Department of Justice and the IPO to deal with this issue of unaccompanied minors? I have a number of questions. Is this being followed up actively with the Ukrainian authorities and particularly with the Ukrainian Embassy? What measures have been put in place by the Department of Foreign Affairs to contact the authorities and particularly the local Ukrainian authorities to get a handle on what is happening at the airports where they are leaving from? What measures are they putting in place for unaccompanied minors who are getting on the planes? When they arrive at the IPO, where the IPO finds that a young person has arrived and it is clear that he or she is over the age of 18, what will happen at that point? When somebody arrives and it is clear that his or her documentation may be faulty and we are not able to establish that he or she is under the age of 18, what will happen?

Mr. Des Delaney

That is part of the work we are doing with the IPO. We will have a meeting with them next week. I will see what happens then.

An Cathaoirleach

That is very timely. Can Mr. Delaney come back to the Committee of Public Accounts with a short synopsis of the measures that will now be taken? This is a crisis situation that Tusla is trying to deal with and it is clear that it is causing problems.

I want to ask about the guardian ad litem, GAL, scheme. The Comptroller and Auditor General made recommendations regarding the financial oversight. The meeting with Tusla in July 2022 confirmed to this committee that Tusla had not implemented the recommendations at that point. Have those recommendations been implemented now?

Ms Kate Duggan

Which recommendations?

An Cathaoirleach

These were the recommendations made by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We could bring the Comptroller and Auditor General for a moment.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I think this might be about data gathering.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, it was about data gathering.

Mr. Pat Smyth

That referred to information on the use of GALs through the courts. To be fair, that is probably something that will fall to the new agency to do properly when it is established. There is no capacity to do so in Tusla at the moment. There just is not the ability to reach into the Courts Service to do that.

Ms Kate Duggan

It is important to say that Tusla, under our office of legal services, has taken significant action on the oversight around the payment, what has been paid and standardising rates of payment. That was one of the concerns. We have been able to implement stronger oversight within our current remit. Our team in the office of legal services has now undertaken a review. At the time, that review showed real diversity in the fees that were being charged by the GALs. On the foot of that review, we set a fee of €125 per hour plus VAT for the GALs. Also-----

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry, that figure of €125 is for what?

Ms Kate Duggan

It is €125 per hour for the GAL.

An Cathaoirleach

Right. Okay.

Ms Kate Duggan

That is the cost at the moment. We have also looked at making sure that the mileage rates they apply are those set by the Department of Finance.

An Cathaoirleach

Regarding the unpaid expenditure from 2018 to 2022, there is a yellow line on this page and it looks as though it is approximately €45 million for the guardians ad litem.

Ms Kate Duggan

I have the facts on the GAL costs. It was €16.5 million for 2022.

Mr. Pat Smyth

I will confirm those statistics. There is a note in the accounts that sets out the guardian ad litem costs. Some €11.5 million was paid to guardians ad litem. As they are also entitled to legal support, there was another €9 million on top of that.

An Cathaoirleach

How much was it?

Mr. Pat Smyth

It was €9 million so in total it is almost €21 million for guardians ad litem in 2022.

An Cathaoirleach

The figure looks a bit higher on the graph that is before me.

Ms Kate Duggan

It is also important to say that-----

An Cathaoirleach

These are for legal expenses and guardian ad litem costs. If you go back to 2018, the figure was approximately €26 million or €27 million.

Ms Kate Duggan

That is where the reduction came in.

An Cathaoirleach

Then it runs up to in excess of €40 million in 2022.

Mr. Pat Smyth

There are two elements to that. Guardian ad litem costs and our legal costs are included in the figure. Our legal costs were €15 million last year. That is what we spent on legal business.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you.

Ms Kate Duggan

In the context of guardian ad litem costs in 2023, the run in was between €16 million and €17 million, and our budget is about €13 million. We are carrying a deficit every year in respect of those costs. That is why we would welcome the establishment of that office. I am delighted to be working with colleagues in the Department on that.

An Cathaoirleach

That is welcome progress. I thank the witnesses and staff of Tusla and the Department for attending and for supplying information in advance of today's meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General, and Mr. John Crean from his office, for attending and supporting the committee. I take it as agreed that the clerk to the committee will seek any follow-up information and carry out any concrete actions arising from the meeting. I also take it as agreed that we will note and publish the opening statements and briefings supplied for today's meeting on the committee's web page. We will suspend now until 1.30 p.m., when we will resume in public session to deal with correspondence and any other business.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.31 p.m. and resumed at 1.32 p.m.