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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 23 May 2024

Business of Committee

The business this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts, financial statement, correspondence, work programme and any other business.

The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 16 May which have been circulated. Do any members wish to raise any matters relating to the minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.

Only two sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the Houses between 13 and 17 May. I will ask Mr. McCarthy to address those. They are from the hospital board and Cork Education and Training Board, ETB.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

As the Cathaoirleach mentioned, first are the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board's financial statements for 2022. They received a qualified audit opinion. The accounts give a true and fair view, except that they account for the cost of retirement benefit entitlements of the staff of the board only as they become payable, but that is a standard treatment for health bodies.

The second set of financial statements relates to Cork ETB, again for 2022. They received a clear audit opinion but I draw attention to significant non-compliant procurement in that case.

Does any member wish to comment on or ask questions about the accounts and financial statements? No. Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, they will be published as part of our minutes.

Moving to correspondence, as previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s webpage. Four items have been flagged for discussion under correspondence from Accounting Officers and Ministers and follow-up to Committee of Public Accounts meetings.

No. R2595, from Ms Suzanne Eade, chief executive officer of Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, and dated 9 May 2024, provides correspondence to the committee about the Curragh Racecourse. It is proposed to note and not publish this item as the figures provided relate to 2023 and are confidential. Is that agreed? Agreed. I flagged this correspondence because there is information in it. Members may recall that a convertible loan of €9 million was given by HRI to the Curragh Racecourse for redevelopment. There has been a loss. It is indicated in the correspondence that the loss was €1.4 million for the period ending December 2022. From what I see in front of me - I will not give the figures - it looks like it will not return to profitability at that point. It is one we will have to keep a watch on for future public sector entities, PSEs, because there is substantial investment of public money in the Curragh racetrack. If any members wish to comment, they should feel free to do so.

When do we have a meeting with the HRI in the diary? We will be looking at it shortly.

I ask the Deputy to hold on as we will come to it when we discuss the work programme. We have the HRI listed to appear before the committee. We will note and publish the correspondence.

No. R2599, from Ms Helen Brophy, general director, Institute of Public Administration, IPA, and dated 10 May 2024, provides to the committee an explanatory note under Circular 24/2021 on the timely production, submission and laying before the Houses of the Oireachtas of the annual accounts of bodies and funds. We wrote to the IPA because we were concerned about the delay in its forwarding of information to the committee. Basically, the correspondence sets out that there is a look-back back review in 2024 and that the 2022 accounts had not been forwarded to the Department of public expenditure but were subsequently forwarded on 15 March 2024. I think people would find it wholly unacceptable that it took almost two years to do so. The IPA stated that the delay occurred due to a combination of internal circumstances relating to staff leaving and handover arrangements.

This was an avoidable oversight error. The IPA has implemented internal controls to ensure all financial governance reporting timelines are adhered to. In the last paragraph, it apologises to the committee and Oireachtas for the delay and oversight. It was quite a substantial delay. It has committed to correcting that and ensuring that there is not a recurrence. It is agreed to note and publish No. 2599.

Next is No. 2601 from Ms Anne Stewart, assistant secretary general, Office of Government Procurement. It is dated 13 May and provides correspondence to the committee in relation to ongoing issues with the procurement of translation and interpreting services. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. We were seeking a briefing regarding the procurement of translation and interpretation services and it states that a tender to establish a framework for interpretation services was originally published on 28 May 2020. However, legal proceedings delayed its establishment. These proceedings have since been resolved and, as a result, a new framework for interpretation services has been live since 18 November 2022 and will be in place for four years. If any member wishes to come in on this, feel free. I note it was published on 28 May 2020 but legal matters - we do not know the nature - delayed the establishment of the framework. It is important that a framework is in place. It has been resolved. It took a year and a half. Since 18 November 2022, the framework has been in place for a contract for four years. Does any member wish to comment? It is proposed to note and publish it. I take that as agreed.

Next is No. 2605 from Ms Oonagh McPhillips, Secretary General of the Department of Justice. It provides a response to the committee in relation to carrier liability and first instance decisions. This is to do with immigration. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed. In that correspondence, there is important information. We asked about how it is policed. It states in its letter that the Immigration Act 2003 contains obligations for carriers travelling into the State from outside the jurisdiction. Enforcement is therefore a matter for An Garda Síochána. It has clarified that. We also asked about first instance decisions. We requested further information on the steps being taken to reduce that from the median of 13 months. My recollection from when it was before the committee was that it was 14 or 15 months. We will not argue over that. It set out the measures it is taking and a number of pointers. It states that at the end of April, the IPO staff office had 405 members, compared with 282 in April 2023. On training for the onboarding of new IPO panel members - these are presumably the decision-makers - there are 200. It was much lower. Ninety are fully-trained and 80 further members are undertaking their first interviews.

The review of existing designated safe countries has been carried out. Ten countries have been considered to be designated safe countries. At the end of January, both Algeria and Botswana were added to the list. We had that information already. In April 2024, the Minister decided to prioritise and accelerate international protection applicants from countries with the largest number of applicants. Based on quarter 1 2024, that turned out to be Nigeria. This will be reviewed again in 2024. Members may have a view on this - I am puzzled as to why there are only ten countries designated as safe. It does not deal with people from countries with normal inflows and outflows of people, including Irish people. In terms of the countries people tend to come from, we should ask for information on how that decision is made. I presume information is taken from embassies, international police forces or whatever. I propose to the committee that we ask the Department of Justice to explain how we arrived at a situation in which only two countries were added to the original list of eight and there are still only ten countries designated as safe. Does Deputy Murphy wish to comment?

I agree. We need the information.

That is not to say that those that are not safe, from which people are genuinely fleeing persecution, famine or war - we have to accept they come from an unsafe situation and they need to be looked after accordingly but I would question that. I propose that we ask if it looks at countries on a regionalised basis. Countries that are very vast may have an unsafe area but up to 70% or 80% of the country may be very safe. I propose that we put that request into the Department. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will send correspondence to Ms McPhillips on that. In the meanwhile, we will note and publish this correspondence.

That concludes correspondence. We will move on to the work programme, which members have in front of them. Drafts have been circulated to members. The discussion document is displayed on their screens. Next week, 30 May, we will meet the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board in relation to the 2022 financial statements. Representatives of the Department of Health and the HSE have also been invited to attend. There is a gap of a week and on 13 June, we will engage with the Office of Public Works in relation to Vote 13. Representatives from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth have also been invited to attend in relation to modular housing for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection. It is an area of interest of the committee. It has been flagged.

On 20 June 2024 - this will deal with the issue from earlier - we will engage with the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board in relation to the 2022 financial statements. Representatives of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Horse Racing Ireland have also been invited to attend. There is an opportunity, if members want, to schedule Horse Racing Ireland to look at its accounts later in the year, if members want to do that separately. We can put that on the list of possibilities. Do members wish to do that?

No, because on 20 June, a representative from HRI has also been invited.

The Deputy is happy enough that will cover it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Does the committee want to put its financial statements on for consideration if it is to answer questions on them?

I did not hear that from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I suggested that perhaps Horse Racing Ireland's financial statements for 2022 should also be listed if there are to be questions about the financial statements of HRI.

It is agreed that we will put that on the agenda. On 27 June, we will engage with the Road Safety Authority in relation to the 2022 financial statements and the following areas of interest: road safety statistics and performance metrics; outcomes from the expenditure in the accounts; vehicle testing; driver testing; issuing of driving licences; and GDPR issues that arise in the context of providing accident information to local authorities. On 4 July, we will meet Waterways Ireland in relation to the 2022 financial statements. On 11 July, we will meet the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in relation to Vote 30 – Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and Chapter 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General annual report - estate management in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Is the work programme up 11 July agreed to? Agreed. That concludes consideration of the work programme.

The last item on the agenda is any other business. As no member wishes to raise a matter, the meeting will adjourn until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 May 2024, when the committee will engage with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board.

The committee adjourned at 2 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 30 May 2024.
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