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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Apr 1923

Vol. 3 No. 1

[DAIL IN COMMITTEE.] - SUMMER TIME BILL 1923—THIRD STAGE.

The Dáil went into Committee on the Summer Time Bill, 1923.
SECTION 1.

I beg to move Clause 1:—

(1) The time for general purposes in Saorstát Eireann shall, during the period of Summer Time, be one hour in advance of West-European time.

(2) Wherever any reference to a point of time occurs in any enactment, Order in Council, Order, regulation, rule, bye-law, deed, notice or other document whatsoever, the time referred to shall, during the period of Summer Time, be deemed, subject as hereinafter provided, to be the time as fixed for general purposes by this Act.

(3) Nothing in this Act shall affect the use of West-European time for purposes of astronomy, meteorology, or navigation, or affect the construction of any document mentioning or referring to a point of time in connection with any of those purposes.

Before we discuss the clauses of this Bill, may I ask for some information? We did not know that this Bill was coming on so soon after the recess, and we did not know what was the last date on which amendments should be handed in. We went to the country for the recess, and we had not opportunity for tabling amendments. There are some few amendments that we would like to have in for discussion. Can we do nothing at this stage to bring about their consideration?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I think it was obvious that if the Bill was to pass at all it was a matter of some urgency to get it through the Committee Stage, inasmuch as the date mentioned for its coming into operation is that next following the second Saturday, in April. It says in Clause 2 that "for the purposes of this Act the period of Summer Time shall be taken to be the period beginning in the morning of the day next following the third Saturday in April, or, if that day is Easter Day, the day following the second Saturday in April." The date of the Committee Stage was clearly stated by Ceann Comhairle.

Do I understand that the Bill applies to school hours in the rural districts in the country?

ACTING CHAIRMAN

If the Bill is passed, it will apply in the country from the date of its coming into effect.

Is there no means, therefore, of getting our views considered?

ACTING CHAIRMAN

Reject the Bill.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

There is another means by which the Deputy can get his views considered. The District Councils cannot alter the Bill, neither can the County Councils; but no one is bound to change his watch. No one need keep Summer Time; he can make the necessary arrangements when going to his train.

On the question of school hours, might I point out to Deputy Gorey that there is no great need for uneasiness on that score, because it is within the power of the Minister for Education to alter the hours for school time. As a matter of fact, the hours were altered last year.

Not in my district.

An order was issued, at all events, giving permission to the managers and teachers to alter the hours in rural schools from 10.30 to 11.30, and it is within their discretion to do that still. I know that in a great many schools in rural districts that was done last year, and if it was not done it was the fault of the managers or the teachers. That is to say, they have power to mark the roll-book up to the hour of 11.30 by the new time.

If there is any reasonable way of dealing with this, I am satisfied.

ACTING CHAIRMAN

As far as the schools are concerned, there is no doubt it is within the province of the Minister for Education to make provision as regards the attendance hours. On the general question there is an amendment down in the name of Deputy McCartan which will introduce local option, if it is carried by the Dáil. The present motion by the Minister is that Clause 1 stand part of the Bill, and the first amendment to that is in the name of Deputy Byrne.

I beg to move to delete the words "one hour" in line 2, and to substitute the words "thirty-five minutes." I would remind the Dáil that in other countries, such as England, where Summer Time has been adopted, they advance the clock by an hour. The natural result of adopting such a measure in this country is that we would be putting on the clock one hour and twenty-five minutes, because for a number of years the clock has been advanced twenty-five minutes in Ireland. A decision to advance the clock by an hour would at any time inflict great hardship and inconvenience on a very large section of the people, especially the agricultural community. As a matter of fact, the twenty-five minutes increase did inflict great hardship and inconvenience on people in rural districts, and the purpose of my amendment is that if we are to have Summer Time, then let us have Irish Summer Time. I know a number of arguments will be used against this amendment. It will be said, for instance, that its adoption will cause great confusion to people travelling to England or across the border. I would remind the Dáil that years ago, when crossing to England, we had to change our watches. We had not Summer Time then, and when we got to Holyhead we had to change our watches so as to conform with the English time. On the Continent, in France, Germany, and Austria, Summer Time has been dropped, and I presume the same difficulties will arise between these countries and England as between this part of Ireland and across the border. People travelling in trains over the border will have to change their watches, but that is all the inconvenience that will be caused. When the matter was under discussion on the last day the farmers' representatives pointed out the great inconvenience that will be caused to the agricultural community by the adoption of Summer Time. Its adoption would mean that the farmers would have to get up an hour earlier. From a very large part of the constituency that I represent, a big proportion of the milk supply to this city comes. The result would be if Summer Time were adopted that the people engaged in that business would have to meet the trains an hour earlier than at present. They would have to start work one hour and twenty-five minutes earlier than at present in the morning, and would knock off an hour and twenty-five minutes earlier in the evening, or, as I might say, during the most valuable part of the day to people engaged in agriculture. We hear a lot in these times about the will of the people. I certainly challenge any Deputy in this Dáil to say that the people of Ireland would vote for Summer Time. I am convinced that if the question were put before them they would turn this proposal about Summer Time down. I would urge the Dáil if we are going to have Summer Time, to give us something that will meet with the approval of that large section of the people engaged in the agricultural industry.

I rise to support the amendment. It was stated here the last day that if there was a difference of time between England and Ireland it would lead to great inconvenience in the discharge of business. Now, the business between England and Ireland is very important, no doubt, but this difference of time would not matter very much. France, which is a nation with a greater volume of business than ours was face to face with this question only the other day; that if they did not change their clocks in accordance with the English time there would be great inconvenience caused thereby. The industrial and commercial portion of France were emphatically in favour of altering the clock in order to adjust it with British time, but the majority of the people of France were opposed to it, and the Government in France did not think they would be justified in ignoring the views of the majority. I sympathise with what Deputy Byrne said, that in these days it is time to drop ignoring the majority. Some people think that it is a good thing to be in the minority, that when you are in the minority, you are nearly always sure to be right. The majority of the people of Ireland do not want this Summer Time; it does not suit them. In the matter of international trade, I contend that it is not such an obstacle. The great obstacle to international trade that any man who travels experiences, is the different kinds of coin.

The scarcity of it.

To anyone who has faced and survived that difficulty, the question of the time is a small one altogether. On the last occasion Deputy McCartan pointed out that in the United States, in different portions of it, they have a different time; they have not the same time in each place. That being the case, I think there is not much point in the argument with regard to adjusting our time with international time. Why, as Deputy Byrne points out, are we asked to go one better than the Englishman? This Bill is a concession to British sentiment. In the cities it is a good thing to give a full hour to the artisan and worker, but in this country, when you are asking the artisan to get up thirty-five minutes earlier, what is the reason for adding another thirty-five minutes? Is it because the Englishman does it? I submit that is no solid reason; it is no reason because he gets up one hour before his usual time. I think one hour is a sufficient change to make in his life and in the life of the nation, and there is no reason why an additional thirty-five minutes should be asked for.

On the principle that half a loaf is better than no bread, I support the amendment. If I had my way I would do away with the Bill altogether. The point I want to stress is this: Ireland is the most westerly point of Europe. West Clare is ten degrees west of Greenwich, and that means a difference of forty minutes in time. On top of that you want to put another hour. In my opinion the inhabitants of the West of Ireland are more handicapped than any other people in Europe. Western France is only three degrees west of Greenwich. When the people in Western France would not take three degrees, why should we take ten, which would mean a difference of forty minutes? This question of opting out, that is arranging with the Minister for Education for the alteration of school hours, might be operative. If the Minister for Education would agree, perhaps that could be done; but we are not satisfied with that kind of thing. We want to conduct our business in our own way. There is a good deal in what Deputy Byrne says. If we are to transact business in accordance with the wishes of the majority of the people, we should make laws accordingly, and not legislate according to the desires of the minority. Last week the Minister said that this Bill was going to save the nation's health and wealth. To my mind it will mean a loss of work, and the Deputies on the opposite benches are losing time by it. There is unemployment enough in the country, and under this Bill it would mean doing away with, perhaps, one hundred hours' work. That is, they would be losing wages for one hundred hours, and that ought to be remembered at a time like this. What is the gain to the nation's wealth? In my opinion it does not affect the nation's wealth. I consider that where the majority of the people are against the measure, it is ill-becoming for a popular Government like ours to bring in a Bill of this sort. I desire to support the amendment. It does not go as far as I would like it to go, but I think it is better than nothing.

I would like to make a suggestion. There is a difference of eleven minutes between Dublin and the West of Ireland time. I do not see why the convenience of the West of Ireland should not be consulted. Instead of a thirty-five minutes change you should reduce it to twenty-four. That is my suggestion. As regards this matter about schools and school-time, in my part of the country they are continually growling when they do not adopt the new time and so have the children coming home from school at the same time and having dinner together. That is the popular feeling.

I think it is generally recognised that the workers in towns are more in favour of Summer Time than the people in the country. In the country nearly every one observes the old time. The Summer Time was opposed altogether or ignored. People very seldom recognised it except when they had to catch a train. Nobody was in love with it. France and Germany dropped out, and in Canada the Manufacturers' Association have agreed to work an hour earlier.

I think there is a great deal of point made in the argument particularly as affecting the West. It is a case of losing twenty-five minutes Greenwich time and then adding eleven minutes for the West, that is making 36 minutes, which is the better part of an hour altogether, so that in the West it comes to this that seven o'clock in the morning would be only 25 minutes past five. I think it ought to be considered in the towns, too. It undoubtedly affects the people in the towns who want to go to work early. This would hit them very hard when Summer Time starts. And then it is very cold in the mornings. The fact is that people who have to be out at 6 will have to be going out a little after 4.30, 25 minutes to five to be correct. The people in the West of Ireland would be going out before 4 o'clock.

The people in the West of Ireland are out all night.

They are going home at that time.

The Deputies from the country will bear me out that no self-respecting cow can expect to be milked at 2.30 in the morning, and that according to this new Summer Time in the West of Ireland cattle that in the ordinary course would be milked at 4.30 would now be milked at 2.30. The milk supply of the country is a very important matter. I represent a constituency that is very much interested in the milk supply, and in the Summer Time the people will have to get up practically in the middle of the night in order to milk their cows in time. All these points are deserving of serious consideration.

As to this question of the milking of the cows, I want to emphasise that, as a matter of fact, the cows are milked in their sleep.

That is why they give so much water.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Deputy Cole spoke a profound truth when he said that in the country Summer Time is ignored altogether. That is about the case for this Bill. On the one hand, it has a very positive, a very considerable benefit for a large proportion of the population, and, on the other hand, the people on whom it does not confer benefits ignore it altogether. No one asks them to stop ignoring it altogether. First of all, we had a certain amount of perfervid rhetoric about "God's time," and that more or less worked itself out. But now the suggestion is that, instead of an hour, we should have merely twenty-five minutes advance in the clock. Well, it seems to me that if we take that line we would show a very poor sense of proportion. It would mean that for the sake of twenty-five minutes you are prepared to put up with the inconvenience of having the time different from that of two countries alongside of us, with which we are economically very much bound up—a different time from England, Scotland and Wales, and a different time from six of our own counties in the North-East. I submit that would be a disadvantage out of all proportion to a mere matter of twenty-five minutes. I would like to hold a mass meeting of the cows of this country and ask them how many of them are milked at four o'clock in the morning —what proportion of the bovine population of this country is milked at that hour. As I said on introducing this Bill, it is simply a question of balancing one thing against another, and looking for the greater gain. Now, what is the disadvantage? When you come down to practical terms and get away from rhetoric, what is the practical disadvantage? And what proportion of the population is seriously affected by it? Set against that the gain to practically all classes in the country other than the farmers—to all the town dwellers in Ireland, to the people in the shops, to all professional people in the country. At heart, while they dearly love to bluster a little, the Farmers' Party in this Dáil is not unreasonable, and it knows as well as I do that the Summer Time that was introduced into this county for the last five or six years has made little or no difference to them. One point that was stressed particularly in the Second Reading was the point about children going to school. It was pointed out by Deputy O'Connell that that is easily adjustable, that it was merely a matter of representations to the Minister for Education, who will, no doubt, show himself eminently reasonable. Deputy Byrne's amendment suggests that for the sake of twenty-five minutes you are to suffer all the practical and commercial disadvantages of having a different time from Britain, and having a different time from six of our own counties in the North-East. I submit that it is not worth while. I strongly urge the Dáil to reject the amendment. It is an amendment, although Deputy Byrne would not admit it even to himself, that is purely sentimental. He wants to get back to the real old Irish time. If he succeeds, a great many people in all Ireland will have cause to regret it, and they will pay for the indulgence of sentiment.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 17; níl, 34.

  • Uáitéar Mac Cumhaill
  • Seán O Duinnín
  • Domhnall Ó Mocháin
  • Tomás Mac Eoin
  • Seoirse Ghabháin Uí Dhubhthaigh
  • Seán Ó Ruanaidh
  • Mícheál de Staineas
  • Tomás Ó Conaill
  • Criostóir Ó Broin
  • Séamus Éabhróid
  • Ristéard Mac Liam
  • Próinsias Bulfin
  • Pádraig Mac Artáin
  • Tomás Mac Artúir
  • Liam Mac Sioghaird
  • Domhnall Ó Broin
  • Mícheál Ó Dubhghaill

Níl

  • Liam T. Mac Cosgair
  • Donchadh Ó Guaire
  • Mícheál Ó hAonghusa
  • Seán Ó hAodha
  • Tomás de Nógla
  • Riobárd Ó Deaghaidh
  • Séamus Breathnach
  • Darghal Figes
  • Ailfrid Ó Broin
  • Seán Mac Garaidh
  • Pilib Mac Cosgair
  • Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh
  • Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha
  • Liam Ó Briain
  • Earnán Altún
  • Sir Séamus Craig
  • Liam Thrift
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa
  • Pádraig Ó hUgáin
  • Piaras Beaslaí
  • Fionán Ó Loingsigh
  • Aodh Ó Cúlacháin
  • Liam Ó Daimhin
  • Caoimhghin Ó hUigín
  • Séamus Ó Dóláin
  • Eamon Ó Dúgáin
  • Peadar Ó hAodha
  • Séamus Ó Murchadha
  • Seosamh Mac Giolla Bhrighde
  • Tomás Ó Domhnaill
  • Uinseann de Faoite
  • Séan Buitléir
  • Domhnall Ó Muirgheasa
  • Domhnall Ó Ceallacháin
Amendment declared lost.

ACTING CHAIRMAN

The next amendment is by Dr. McCartan —To add to Clause 1, Sub-Section (1), after the words "of West European time,""provided the Local Authority, i.e., Corporation, County Borough, Urban Council, or County Council so decide."

At first sight this may seem a very confusing proposal on my part. It might seem that Dublin having one time and the county having another would be very confusing. I think the question would depend entirely on what time the trains would run. I agree with the Minister for Home Affairs that Summer Time is a good thing for the cities, but I maintain that it is not a good thing for the agricultural districts. In other words, it is a good thing in England, because England is a manufacturing country. It is a bad thing in Ireland, because Ireland is an agricultural country, or largely an agricultural country. And as agriculture at the present time is our staple industry, I think we should look at it as above, or at least equal to any other industry in the country. I move this motion in the interests of agriculture in this country. I saw recently that the French Chamber were discussing the Strasburg as against the Greenwich time, and a despatch to the London Times, of March 28th, says:—“The measure has already been laid before the Chamber, and it is anticipated that it will have the united support of the Deputies who represent agricultural interests.” Agricultural interests in the Dáil seem to be taken as a joke, and the agricultural representatives seem to be taken as a joke also. As I said, it is our most important industry, and its interests should get serious consideration. The farmers would be benefitted if the clock were put back instead of forward, but they do not wish to inconvenience the rest of the population. They wish to be let alone. I do not see why in the interests of the workers in the cities and the towns, or any other interest, the farmers should be inconvenienced. If Dublin, for instance, wants to have new time, or Summer Time, by all means let them have it, but that should not be allowed to interfere with other parts of the country whose interests would be better served by sun time.

It is said, in favour of the Summer Time Bill, that our commercial relations with England and Ulster are so important that it would cause great confusion. I saw in the United States while I was there the effect of observing different times. The States of Pennsylvania and New Jersey are separated by the Delawar River. The amount of intercourse, commercial and otherwise, between the two States is indicated by the number of trains and ferry boats across the river. I know that from two or three wharves you get ferry boats crossing every ten minutes, and trains cross certainly every hour or every half-hour. Many of the people living in New Jersey work in Philadelphia, and some of them who live in Philadelphia work in New Jersey, and they seem to get on very well notwithstanding the observance of different times. I never saw any inconvenience, and I lived there for part of a summer. Further, I saw trains going from New York to Philadelphia and Philadelphia to New York where there were different times, and there was no inconvenience. There is a Stock Exchange in New York, and a Stock Exchange at Philadelphia, and there does not seem to be any inconvenience with regard to commerce between the two States. Each place was allowed to do as it pleased, and there was no inconvenience. I think if the trains ran here at the old time there would be no great inconvenience. The only inconvenience would be our intercourse with England. That is the only really important thing. Our commercial intercourse with England, I think, is no greater than that of France with England, and yet the French and English times are different. I know that there is a good deal of feeling that because a thing is adopted in England it should be adopted here, but conditions in the two countries are entirely different. Another feeling—and I do not think it is enforced upon us by the terms of the Treaty—is that if it rains in London we ought to put up our umbrellas in Ireland!

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is about as true to say that there is a view here that because a thing is adopted in England it ought to be adopted here, as it would be to say that there is a view that nothing. however good, that is adopted in England should be adopted here. Deputy McCartan sees the incoming tide of Anglicisation in this Summer Time Bill——

If I did, I would say so.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

He is not asked to put up his umbrella when it rains in London. We have simply got to examine this Bill on its merits, in a hardheaded way, quite apart from any feeling of either hatred, love or admiration for England. This measure is not put up by us either as Anglophobes or Anglophiles; it is simply put up because we believe it is a thing that will benefit a great many people in the country. Further we believe that the absence of it would inconvenience a great many people in the country far more than any section is inconvenienced by the passing of it.

ACTING CHAIRMAN

I think it is my own fault that I allowed Deputy Dr. McCartan to wander a little from his amendment, and I think the Minister is following him too far. We have already passed an amendment that Summer Time shall be one hour in advance of West European time, and the question on this amendment is whether it is to be a matter of local option or not. I think the discussion on the amendment ought to be confined to that, and I ought to have confined Deputy McCartan to the question as to the advisability of local option.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Speaking on Deputy Dr. McCartan's amendment, I cannot accept the theory that it would be a good idea to make time throughout this country dependent on the majority vote of an Urban Council. When I was very young I heard a song in which there was a refrain "If you want to know the time ask a policeman." Deputy McCartan suggests that it might be altered with advantage, and that it should read "If you want to know the time ask the Urban Council." Simply, the effect of this would be, worked out to its logical conclusion, that in any Urban area you could have a different time prevailing from the time prevailing in the county, because the County Council might opt for one time and the Urban Council might opt for another. If there was a Board of Guardians over in the corner of the county it might opt for something else.

It is a flippant amendment and a fantastic amendment. It is an amendment altogether unworthy of the Deputy who proposed it. He professes to be speaking in the interest of the agricultural community. While we all welcome any solicitude for agricultural interests from Deputy Dr. McCartan, I do not think he has in this matter taken a very intelligent line in support of those interests.

I am open to be convinced as to the usefulness of the amendment that has been moved in this case by Deputy Dr. McCartan. I do not think he has gone sufficiently far to explain the difficulties in the way of the operation of the amendment. We have the difficulty of a County Council fixing a different time from that selected in the urban area or in the borough area. We all know that the time-tables for railways are worked out at the headquarters of these railways. We can all imagine the difficulty there would be in the County Dublin, for instance, where you have men like Deputy Byrne, of considerable personal influence, preferring thirty-five minutes, and people who for sentimental reasons prefer the old Irish time, as against the provisions of this Bill. We can imagine the morning mail starting from Kingsbridge according to the time suggested by the Government, and arriving at Inchicore to find the old time in operation there, and passengers being obliged to wait for an hour until the train would we allowed to proceed beyond the signal. If Dr. McCartan realises difficulties such as these, and if he wants to convince members of the Dáil as to the usefulness of his amendment he should have given us an explanation of these matters. I do not think there is any use in throwing water on a drowned rat, but Deputy McCartan has stated that the Farmers' Party are being made a joke of in this Dáil. I think that he, or anybody who moves an amendment such as this is entitled to be joked at, particularly when he does not explain the real difficulties that I refer to.

I am quite willing to explain any difficulty. Summer Time was rejected in France on account of the inconvenience to the farming community. I know that in America it has been left to local option.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

On a point of order, the principle of Summer Time has been, I think, accepted by the Dáil.

ACTING CHAIRMAN

The Deputy is entitled to explain the question of local option.

I am talking on local option.

ACTING CHAIRMAN

You are not to make the speech that you did not make in moving the amendment, but you can explain anything that has been misunderstood.

It is in the interests of the farmers of France, and of the farmers of America not to have Summer Time, and I suppose the interests of the Irish farmers are as important as the interests of the farmers of these two countries. Deputy Davin referred to the difficulties in connection with the railways, and the differences of time along the lines. In America, where I saw it in practice—I am speaking from experience—the railway times were the same. You left Philadelphia at a certain time according to the platform clock, and it was the same time that was in operation until you crossed into New Jersey, where the time was different. And so it is here. Supposing Dublin adopts Summer Time and Kildare does not, the train from Kildare would have to run at the old time, but it would not make any difference whether it ran at one time or at the other. It would be a question for the railways themselves. The railway time would be the same all over the country. If you lived at Kildare and you left Dublin at 12 o'clock and arrived at Kildare, you would reach the latter place at 1 by the clock but it would be 12 o'clock in Kildare. That was the way in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. It may be said I do not know a lot about farming, but I was raised upon a farm, and the farmers are looking ahead on this matter. I had a communication from the Secretary of the Farmers' Association in my district, and I suppose the Minister for Home Affairs had the same, asking that the Dáil would not enact Summer Time. I had one when I was going up for election and I had another since, and I am voicing the view of my constituents when I ask that this be made a matter of local option. The people in Tullamore do not mind what you do in Dublin, but they want to have the right to do what suits them and suits their needs in their own district.

I wish to support this amendment. The Minister has made out a very good case for the application of this Bill to the towns and the cities, and I, for one, would be very sorry to oppose the application of this Bill to towns and cities if it applied only to towns and cities. I urge the Minister very seriously to give consideration to this amendment. He evidently wants to serve the interests of townsmen and city men, and I submit to him he could do that without applying this Bill to the entire country. To take such a wide scope to accomplish a small thing is like the action of the Chinaman: When he wanted to roast his pig he set fire to his house. It is the right of the town dwellers and the city dwellers to get the extra hour in the evening, and, if necessary, to get up an hour earlier in the morning, but why insist upon another man getting up an hour earlier when it is not necessary?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

We do not.

The Minister says he does not. Well, I come to that point. The attitude the Minister is facing is difficult. He wants this change to come in and not be a hardship to anybody. He says to the majority of the Irish people, "You can ignore this law." I say that is a very unfortunate bit of advice to give to any people. It is time now to make laws that will be respected. We have ignored laws long enough, which were of an injurious character to our people; but some of these laws were most desirable, yet because of their source we ignored them and fought them.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

On a point of personal explanation, may I say I am not inclined to suggest any disregard of a mandatory law. That certainly would not befit me in the position I hold. This is a law which says that the official time of the country will be so and so, and anybody who does not like it need not take any notice of it. There is no law that can compel Deputy Gorey to get up an hour earlier than he wants to, or to set his clock at any time other than the time he wants to. That is not suggested by this Bill. What is suggested is that the official time of the country shall be one hour in advance of a certain period, and anyone whom that does not suit need not take any notice of it. I am not advocating disregard of or disobedience to a mandatory law.

I was quite aware of that distinction, but I say it is too fine for the man in the street. He is told this is the law of the Dáil, and that he ought to respect the law of the Dáil, but if he wakes up and says, "Am I to get up according to the law of the Dáil?" and his brother says, "You can have another hour's sleep, for this is one of the laws you need not mind—you can ignore it"—the effect would be very bad. This amendment gets out of that difficulty. It gives power to the County Councils to say that the law does not apply to their area if they wish. That is a sensible thing to do, and it will make for respect for the law. It does not interfere with the artisan in the town, or the city, and that is quite right. All it says is that that particular law does not suit our rural areas and we do not want it. That is a very sensible arrangement, and it guards against the danger that arises from having one law that is to be obeyed and another that can be ignored. This law does not affect only the agricultural industry, it also affects the fishing industry. Take the mackerel industry. The men, in order to get their nets out, have to get to certain places by train, and formerly they got to these places after six hours' work, but under this Bill, they will have to get there after five hours' work, and that is a serious handicap. The argument that we must have uniformity with England or any other country reminds me of the old Unionist argument. The man who wants that kind of uniformity will also object to the Gaelic language, because he wants uniformity. This desire for uniformity applies a thousand-fold stronger in the case of the language. You cannot ignore the fact that the sun does not come to us as soon as to other people. We have to put up with that, but it stops longer with us than with other people. Now, with regard to the time table, as far as the trains are concerned, that does not present any difficulty.

The railway companies hitherto have fixed their time-tables to suit themselves, and they will do so in the future. Last year the auctioneers through the country put "new time" and "old time" on the posters announcing their auctions, and that got over their difficulty. We were told that the Minister for Education can regulate the school hours. That is very satisfactory, and I am sure he will do so. The Postmaster-General, I suggest, ought to be able to give an assurance with regard to the Post Office. If the people who work, say, up to 7 o'clock Summer Time come to the Post Office and find when they get there that the Post Office people are going to bed there will be a great deal of inconvenience caused. They go there at 5 o'clock, according to their time, to find that the Post Office has been closed at 6 o'clock. If a locality decides, in its own wisdom, to go by the old time, the Post Office should meet the wishes of the locality just as the schools do. If the trains go an hour earlier, and the postman has to make up his letters an hour earlier, the people there will have to find that out as they had to do with regard to the trains hitherto. I think, if you allow the County Councils to have local option in this matter, you will preserve all the advantages of this Bill, without its disadvantages.

I would not give the weight of a match for a vote on either one side or the other, on any of these amendments, only this one, and I am certainly going to oppose Deputy McCartan's amendment. Supposing we had Deputy McCartan and Deputy Sears in the one town, and suppose Deputy McCartan went to the Co. Council and got them to adopt a particular time, and that Deputy Sears went to the Disrict Council and got them to adopt another time, then you would have Co. Council time and District Council time in that area, and then, of course, the chapel bell might be rung at another time altogether. What is time? What is the definition of time, or what is the duration of time? It is not easy to have any convention with regard to time. The day is not 24 hours long, it is only 23 hours 58 minutes and 57 seconds, and no convention that can be laid down—no clock, at least, can be made that you can rely upon as an exact convention of time. The day is not the unit. The year had to be taken as the unit. Suppose we take the day as a unit, well, take half-way between sunrise and sundown, that is what we call noonday, and ordinary people will think that the middle of the day is—the ordinary sun's time—12 o'clock for that place.

What has all this to do with local option?

It has a lot to do with it, because you have got to know what time is.

ACTING CEANN COMHAIRLE

I think the Deputy is in order in pointing out that local time varies in each locality.

We know if we went by the sun's time in a place that in one part of the year the sun's time would be a quarter of an hour in advance of the clock's time. I think that occurs about the 1st of May or some time in April. It would be in advance sometime—going on towards November it would be a quarter of an hour behind the sun's time. Therefore, the day could not be taken as the unit, nor even the year cannot be taken as a unit, because even a leap year, which comes once in four years, would not compensate for the irregularity in the timetable. I think it is about every four hundred years that there is one leap year that is not counted. As I have stated already, the only thing we want is to have a proper convention of time. If we were to have local option every man would go by his watch; he would wind it up and would go by it, or he would wind it up and let it off and say "this is time, and I will depend on my watch."

As I stated on the Second Reading we are opposed to this Bill, because it does not suit the needs of the agricultural community. If city people like it we have no objection, but apart from a few of the large cities I do not think that the smaller towns are in favour of this measure at all. It may be all very well for places like Cork, Limerick, Belfast and Dublin, but the ordinary country towns do not want it. They will go by whatever time is fixed for the rural areas, because that is what suits them. With regard to what Deputy O'Donnell asks as regards a definition of time, the only answer I can give is that I know the difference between day and night, and the sun's light is good enough for me. We are going to vote for the amendment.

Question put.
The Dáil divided:—Tá, 14; Níl, 38

  • Donchadh Ó Guaire
  • Uáitéar Mac Cumhaill
  • Seán Ó Duinnín
  • Domhnall O Mocháin
  • Seoirse Ghabháin Uí Dhubhthaigh
  • Seán Ó Ruanaidh
  • Criostóir Ó Broin
  • Ristéard Mac Liam
  • Próinsias Bulfin
  • Pádraig Mac Artúin
  • Tomás Mac Artúir
  • Liam Mac Sioghaird
  • Domhnall Ó Broin
  • Mícheál Ó Dubhghaill

Níl

  • Mícheál Ó hAonghusa
  • Seán Ó hAodha
  • Tomás de Nógla
  • Riobárd Ó Deaghaidh
  • Darghal Figes
  • Tomás Mac Eoin
  • Deasmhumhain Mac Gearailt
  • Mícheál de Durám
  • Ailfrid Ó Broin
  • Seán Mac Garaidh
  • Pilib Mac Cosgair
  • Mícheál de Stáineas
  • Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh
  • Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha
  • Liam Ó Briain
  • Éarnán Áltún
  • Sir Séamus Craig
  • Liam Thrift
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa
  • Pádraig Ó hÓgáin
  • Tomás Ó Conaill
  • Piaras Béaslaí
  • Fionán Ó Loingsigh
  • Aodh Ó Cúlacháin
  • Séamus Éabhróid
  • Liam Ó Daimhín
  • Caoimhghin Ó hUigín
  • Séamus Ó Dóláin
  • Eamon Ó Dúgáin
  • Peadar Ó hAodha
  • Séamus Ó Murchadha
  • Seosamh Mac Giolla Bhrighde
  • Tomás Ó Domhnaill
  • Uinseann de Faoite
  • Seán Buitleir
  • Séamus de Burca
  • Domhnall Ó Muirgheasa
  • Domhnall Ó Ceallacháin
Amendment declared lost.
Question: "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to. (At this stage An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair).
Clause 2: "For the purposes of this Act the period of summer time shall be taken to be the period beginning at two o'clock, West-European time, in the morning of the day next following the third Saturday in April, or if that day is Easter Day, the day next following the second Saturday in April, and ending at two o'clock, West-European time, in the morning of the next day following the third Saturday in September."

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I move the Clause. Question: "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I move Clause 3:—"In this Act the expression ‘West-European time' means Greenwich mean time.' "

Question: "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I move Clause 4:—

"(1) This Act may be cited as the Summer Time Act, 1923.

"(2) This Act shall continue in force until the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty-three, and no longer, unless the Oireachtas otherwise determines."

Question: "That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I beg to move that the Title stand part of the Bill:—

"An Act to provide for the time in Saorstát Eireann being in advance of West-European time during a certain period of the year."

Question: "That the Title stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
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