I move the adjournment.
THE ADJOURNMENT. - ILLEGAL FISHING OFF TIRCONNAILL.
I desire to draw the attention of the Dáil to the continued and persistent illegal fishing within the prohibited areas along the Tirconnaill Coast line, between Lough Foyle and Lough Swilly. I do not propose to make any charges against the Ministry.
On a point of order, might I draw attention to the fact that the Minister for Fisheries is not in the Dáil.
I am afraid that is not a point of order, if there is someone on his behalf in the Dáil.
He was here a moment ago and I had a discussion with him in the Lobby. I am not raising this for the purpose of making any charges against the Minister for Fisheries. My object is to place before the Dáil the condition of affairs existing on our far Northern coast line. I put on a question by private notice to the Minister for Fisheries on the 11th instant. In reply he said:—"I have, within the past week, entered into an arrangement with the Minister for Defence by which a certain number of patrol boats of that Ministry will be devoted entirely to fishery protection, and I propose to have a base for one of these vessels in Tirconnaill, so that there may be constant patrol of the Tirconnaill coast." Since this question was answered a flagrant and defiant attitude has been shown by those foreign pirates. They are unprincipled and audacious thieves, and they are thieving all the fish along the Tirconnaill coast line. It is scandalous and outrageous that no effort is being made to check this thieving and piracy. It never went so far, and their audacity was never so strong as it has been since the Minister for Fisheries answered that question. It seems to have given them more energy, and they are working with more barefaced persistency than they have ever done before. They are trawling without lights, and they have their identification letters and registration numbers covered by tarpaulins so as to conceal their identity, and where boats' crews in Lough Swilly and elsewhere come out to identify them they make an effort to sink the boats. I am informed that at present about 30 trawlers are illegally operating in the area between Lough Foyle and Lough Swilly. I have recently been informed that several of these trawlers lie in the shelter of Innistrahull Island during the daylight, and during the night they come inshore, take up all the fish, and return to the sheltered ground as soon as daylight breaks. I suggest to the Minister that he should, through the Irish Lights Board, call for a report from the Innistrahull Lightkeepers, with regard to this allegation, and get from them the identity of these trawlers and where they come from. It is an absolute necessity that the Minister should take immediate steps to cope with the outrageous and illegal action of these English and Scotch trawlers. The fishermen at present are practically in a state of starvation. The potato crop has entirely failed along the whole North Donegal coast line, and these people have a hard prospect before them for the winter. It is an absolute necessity that something should be done in justice to prevent the piracy by these audacious robbers who are taking the fish. This fish is intended for the food of man, and it should not be stolen by English and Scotch thieves, who come along there, and run into Fleetwood, Morecambe, and other ports with their hauls.
I would also suggest to the Minister that when he sends a patrol boat round, or when he puts the patrol boat in Lough Swilly, or in any of the Donegal ports, that he will insist that the crew of the patrol boat will do their duty fearlessly and independently, because the allegation has been made to me, or rather the suggestion was made to me, that within the past couple of months, the crew of a certain patrol boat and the crew of some of these trawlers were consorting—I suppose about swopping a dog—at Burtonport. There is another matter which I want to bring to the notice of the Minister when dealing with this matter. I have here a letter which I received from the Tory Island fishermen. It reads:—
"We, the witnesses, who caught an English Steam Trawler inside the three-mile limit on the 25th and 26th May, 1922, wish to say that the case was heard at Falcarragh District Court on the 27th April, 1923. Benjamin Holt, Fleetwood, skipper of the fishing trawler, was fined £100 and £70 costs. But we, the witnesses, have never since got a penny of our honest expenses, and we would feel very thankful if you would enquire into the matter and make the Ministry of Fisheries send us our expenses. James Carroll, Denis Duggan, Patrick Rogers, James Doohan, William Doohan and James Doohan (John)."
This boat was caught on the 13th March, 1923. Identification letters F.D. Registry number 192. F.D. 158 was caught on March 24th, 1923. F.D. 413 was caught on March 24th, 1919. G.N. 33 was caught on November 23rd, 1922. G.N. 18 was caught on October 28th, 1922. G.N. 33 was also caught fishing in prohibited waters between Tory Island and the Coast Line. I do not raise this question this evening for the purpose of raising any charges of neglect against the Minister for Fisheries, but I am doing this for the purpose of letting the Dáil know the condition of affairs on the Donegal Coast Line. This is the condition of affairs that the Minister for Fisheries should take as quick steps as he possibly can to endeavour to end.
Mr. O'CONNELL
This matter of which Deputy White complains is not a County Tirconnaill matter. It is one of the aspects of the Fishing Industry which needs urgent and immediate attention. The whole question of prohibited areas, and what constitutes the prohibited area does not seem to be very clear. Some people speak of the three-mile limit, but I am not so sure that what is internationally spoken of as the three-mile limit is the proper limit in this matter. I understand that it is within the power of the Ministry concerned to extend that limit if necessary. I do not know whether that is a case or not. But I think the Minister for Agriculture on a former occasion, before the present Ministry of Fisheries was established, made some statement which would leave one under that impression. Another point in connection with this prohibited area, or the definition of a prohibited area, is this, that it is sometimes set out by means of a line drawn from one particular part of the coast to another.
Some parts of the coast will approach that line or, I should say that line will, in some places, approach within a mile or a mile and a half of the coast. I would like if the Minister in his reply would make clear what exactly constitutes a prohibited area, and how these areas are arrived at and defined. In cases that I do know, I am aware that the fishermen themselves are not by any means clear on that point. There is no doubt whatsoever that the allegations made by Deputy White are true so far as practically all the fishing grounds are concerned. They are being continually raided by English and Scotch steam trawlers, and even by French trawlers, and it is clear, I think, that the provision made for the protection of the fishing grounds is not ample. I think that is quite clear from the evidence that is available. I do suggest that the Minister should make such arrangements and press that such arrangements should be made as will give this necessary protection to the fishermen. I, myself, during the month of August, saw quite close to the Arran Islands twelve steam trawlers. They go out and fish during the night apparently, and come into the harbour during the day. The only fish that was available on the island on that particular Friday was the fish that was sold by the Fleetwood trawler there. This, as I say, is only one aspect concerning the fishing industry, but it is a very important one, and one that requires, in my opinion, the immediate attention of the Government.
It appears to me that Deputy White and Deputy O'Connell do not exactly appear to remember that poaching is a very time-honoured profession. I do not blame these trawlers in the very least for poaching upon Irish grounds, when they get their chance. Poaching takes place in Scotland, where admittedly the place is well controlled and where there are thousands and thousands of native fishermen. There were 300 cases of poaching last year in Scotland. Poaching takes place in England also, even where they have large numbers of local fishermen and where there is considerable amount of patrol work. I do not see why you should blame them. I would do it myself if I got a chance. I do not see why these men should be blamed for poaching along the coast where there is not a patrol boat nor a fisherman. It is the local fisherman we want to have in these places. If you have these local fishermen that will prevent poaching.
I am not quite sure how this matter stands at the moment. Has Deputy White made a motion?
He is merely drawing attention to the matter.
Permit me, then, to support Deputy White's statement. As to his proposal, it is a different matter. He comes into my bailiwick and takes some of my best fishermen, but these are matters that we will settle. As far as I can understand, the proper course in this matter is that as we have a Minister for Fisheries, Deputy White could discuss the things with him in the corridor. There cannot be much harm in telling the Minister how matters stand and asking for his assistance. I do not think that this is a matter which the Dáil should trouble with; but if it is necessary that the Dáil should be troubled with it, and that this evil should continue, then I think Deputy White would be justified in drawing the attention of the Minister to it. That would be the proper way, and the matter might rest there.
I rise, not to censure the Minister, but to outline a helpful policy. I believe a lot of this poaching could be prevented by greater efficiency and more watchfulness on the part of the patrol fleet. If their numbers are insufficient to deal adequately with the situation and patrol the coast, why not increase the numbers of those boats? I believe that the Dáil would readily grant the requisite amount for a larger number of those boats. The best argument to put against those poachers would be to fine them severely, to confiscate their trawlers and their catch, and, if possible, give them a term of imprisonment. There is something more. It will be readily admitted nowadays that the line of territorial waters under International law extends to only 3 miles, and that is not at all adequate under modern conditions. We have, as it happens, a League of Nations. For what I am going to suggest there is a precedent. The Americans, at the present time, are searching ships and detaining them outside the 12 miles limit for rum-runners. Is not there a sufficient analogy between the American case and ours, and is it not feasible that we should extend our territorial waters to a 12 miles limit? I was never a believer in giving something for nothing. I would rather the Irish people would not be placed in the position of a Don Quixote. The League of Nations should give us some return for the hard cash they receive, and the head of the Government should apply for an extension of the territorial waters to 12 miles.
I wish to join the Deputies in the complaint made as regards poaching. Some of the Deputies are rather new to the subject. Most of us, or at least some of us, have been acquainted with it for some time back.
I know the Minister for Fisheries has been doing all he possibly can for a long time to give protection against poaching. But the question of the poacher is only one phase of the problem. The question of the development of the industry is still more important. In the past, tied as we have been to England, our coasts and harbours were always open to these trawlers while they fished outside the three-mile limit. As far as that was concerned they brought in their catches to the coast, but now when they fish in the same place they bring their catches to England. At the present time the fisherman's position is a very serious one. The outlook for him is very bad. It is growing gradually worse. While the Minister for Fisheries should take steps as drastic as he possibly can to stop poaching and to deal with the poacher, he should at the same time take action in order to assist and direct in some way in the development of the fishing industry around the coast. If something is not done in that line, and done very rapidly, the position with regard to the fishermen is going to be more difficult than the position you have in the Metropolitan area at present, consequent on unemployment. The question of poaching only brings the general question of the Irish fisheries more strongly before us. They naturally resent the raids upon their fishing-grounds of steam trawlers who take away the fish that these fishermen require themselves and out of which they have always been making a living. At the same time, while they are all anxious for that, it is only one of their objectives at the moment, but the most necessary and imperative one is the development of the industry. I am sure that the Minister, when he gets his whole machinery working, will ensure that poaching will be dealt with and that all poaching will cease, at any rate as far as the three-mile limit is concerned. I ask the Minister to apply himself with the utmost energy towards the solution of giving people engaged in this industry a chance of looking to a future in which they can live, and not to have to depend upon relief for their very existence. That applies to a great number of people, because the coast line is big and a great many people are employed, and the Ministry should be very active in trying to apply some machinery to provide employment for the people in this industry and who are dependent upon the industry for their support.
I happen to come from the coastline also. In the particular part of the country that I come from the complaint is not so much about the poaching. Their chief complaint is their want of proper gear for carrying on the fishing. Their gear at present is very much dislocated. What is wanted is a good supply of gear and a proper repair of the boats. In the year before the war they shipped 8,000 barrels of cured herrings to Russia. You would not get as many herrings to-day as would be eaten with a barrel of potatoes. I think the matter for Lifford and Falcarragh would be a proper supply of better tackle and improved boats. I appeal to the Minister to help the Donegal fishermen in the way I have suggested, and then I promise they will hold their own.
I have listened with very great interest to what has been said on this subject, and I propose to deal first with the question that has been raised primarily by Deputy White on the adjournment. I have had several reports, as a matter of fact, with regard to illegal trawling along the Donegal coast. About a month ago I sent around there specially the Helga, which lay in wait at the north coast of Donegal for some time. It did not catch anything, as I expected it would not, because it is too well known, even though it operated with lights out that night. One of our patrol boats was around there, too. We caught one vessel, and a prosecution is pending. In addition to that we had in the last few weeks a report from a fisherman at Tory Island. We sent the report back for confirmation to our agent in Tory Island. I should tell Deputies that we always require confirmation for certain reports from that district. With regard to the Deputy's request for a report from the lightkeepers, these men do not come within my province at all, but I can get copies of their reports from the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The Deputy mentioned that patrol boats should be required to do their duty fearlessly, and suggested that there was ground for complaint against certain patrol boats. That may be quite well founded, and if it is so I should certainly like to have the facts. I am afraid my information from that particular area especially is to this effect, that a lot of the persons there, the inhabitants, and even persons who should be interested in the fishing, are doing far more “colloguing” than the staffs of the patrol boats. I have been several times informed that certain persons along the coast and on the islands along the Donegal coast are in the pay of these trawlers; that they afford them shelter and give them the tip, as it were, when a patrol boat or the Helga is coming along.
They give them bribes of coal.
And something more, perhaps. The point the Deputy mentions about Falcarragh is at the present moment being considered. With regard to Donegal generally, there is a boat station at Killybegs which will operate more on the northern portion of Donegal, for the moment from Lough Swilly. I had better, I suppose, not go into details as to how it is going to operate. Deputy O'Connell raised the question of prohibited areas. Normally, a prohibited area under International Law is what is known as the three mile limit. There are then certain bye-law areas. At the moment there are bye-law areas with respect to fishing. There is a bye-law, for instance, made by the Department of Agriculture. These bye-law, areas really only apply to our own fishing boats, and to those, for the moment, of Great Britain. The foreigner can fish in these areas so long as he does not attempt to land his fish in this country or in Great Britain. That is exactly the legal position. At the moment we have no power, as a Ministry, to make bye-laws. We cannot do so until the Ministries' Bill is through. The question of further extending the three mile area is a matter for international convention. For the moment the Americans have extended theirs; they chanced it, as it were. The Russians did it before, but it did not come off, and the American action has not yet received international sanction.
On a question of order, on this three mile limit——
That is not a question of order.
Deputy Hogan raised the question of greater efficiency in the patrol service and of greater numbers. At the moment at any rate, once the additional patrol boats that are being available for us—they have not actually come under my control yet—but once they come under the control of the Ministry, that is to say, the four additional patrol boats, we will have sufficient numbers, and I think the patrol service then will be quite efficient. Deputy McGoldrick raised the question of general development. I think that is a matter that will come up under other matters; for instance, under the Governor-General's address, and I think it need not be dealt with in detail here.
I desire to thank the Minister for his reply, and for the amount of trouble he has gone to in dealing with this matter.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.25 p.m. until Thursday, the 1st November, at 3 p.m.