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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 25 Apr 1924

Vol. 7 No. 1

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. FINANCIAL RESOLUTIONS. - RESOLUTION No. 7.

I beg to move:

"That a Customs duty of an amount equal to thirty-three and one-third per cent. of the value of the article shall be charged, levied, and paid on all empty bottles of glass coloured green or black, imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 12th May, 1924."

I would like to suggest to the Dáil, in moving this Resolution, that it would, I think, be more convenient, if it were possible, to get an agreement to finish to-night. I think it will be very inconvenient for some Deputies to come here to-morrow. If it were possible to finish to-night, so far as 18 Resolutions were concerned, Resolution No. 19 could be adjourned until the Dáil would next meet. That would mean that a discussion of the general question could be held over, and it could be dealt with later at length. Then individual Resolutions could be dealt with on Report, when Deputies would have more time to consider them, and when they could bring forward reasoned amendments. If any Resolution is not confirmed, even if the duty is collected in the meantime, that duty will have to be repaid, so that no one is prejudiced in the matter.

In order to facilitate the Minister, and as most of the opposition to these Resolutions comes from these benches, we will not make probably any comment on the other Resolutions nor propose any amendments at this stage.

I would like to know what is the present value——

Can we get a decision first as to whether the Minister's suggestion will be agreed to?

Agreed.

What I would like to know, speaking on this Resolution, is what is the present value of the output of bottles and the present value of the bottles at present imported into Ireland? There is one other matter about this glass bottle resolution. I am not a sufficient judge of antiques, but I am glad that the Deputy for Waterford is in his place. He can tell us about the Waterford glass industry. I think if glass is to be protected at all, it seems a pity that the Waterford glass, which was a very valuable industry in the old days, should be omitted from this Resolution. It seems that we have now an opportunity, in a very easy way, of resurrecting a very old and profitable industry, and I am glad that the Deputy for Waterford is here.

I agree with the general proposition of the Minister that we should get the Resolutions formally passed to-night. But I think that while that is desirable that we should not merely pass them without any consideration. I think it would help the discussion at a later stage if the Minister would give us some information, when he is moving the Resolutions, as to the effect of the various proposals, that is, that he should give us what is the quantity and the value of these imports, and what is likely to be the effect of the Resolutions. I am afraid that the method of treating these Resolutions, especially when dealing with new duties—of merely moving them in a formal way—is not going to assist the Dáil and will not make it easier for the discussion on the Report Stage. The Minister and his Department are the only persons who know anything about the glass and bottle industry so far as it may be affected by Customs duty. We have certain rough estimates of what may be counted the glass bottle industry in the Saorstát. But they are only guesses. The Minister probably knows something on the matter. Will he tell the Dáil what he knows about the possibilities and about the number of dozens or hundreds of bottles that are likely to be affected? What is the consumption? What is the value, and, for instance, why does the Resolution confine itself to glass coloured green or black? It was suggested to me, for instance, that the object of this Resolution may be very well evaded or destroyed by other or differently coloured bottles being imported, and that while green or black coloured bottles may be made——

And blue bottles?

The importers, to save their trade, will immediately turn to other coloured bottles inasmuch as Belgian, or perhaps German, bottles can be produced of different colours, and it will be simply a matter of price and advertisement, as to whether the Irish customers will continue purchasing green, black, blue, white or any other colour. It will be entirely a matter then for the kind of competition that the German or Belgian maker will put into the market. The Minister may have a perfect reply to this, but surely he has got a right to tell us something about the duty before he asks the Dáil formally to pass this resolution.

I wanted to ask something of the same nature as Deputy Johnson has raised, because one is accustomed to see blue Winchester quartz bottles, and what I would call white or colourless Winchester quartz. What I want to ask is would the ordinary medicine bottle be exempt? That has a greenish shade connected with it. Would that come under the resolution? I would require more information as to the kind of bottle that he calls green or black. There are bottles that are different from the Winchester quartz. Many of these Winchester quartz are coloured blue. Then there are others that are used for poisons. I think it is quite possible, as Deputy Johnson said, that the Germans or the Belgians may come in with their bottles tinged with these colours. If the Minister would say what type of bottles he means, I am quite in agreement with the Resolution to put on the customs duties so as to bring back the bottle industry here. We heard a great deal about this when the Food Commission was sitting. We heard that there was great trouble in getting bottles of this kind.

I would like to draw attention to the wording of this Resolution. I do not think it is quite clear. Take the word "empty." I would like to know would bottles containing water be exempt from duty? The omission or inclusion of the word "empty" may make a big difference. In its present form it will mean that they will be duty free, that is if the bottles were filled. Is it a matter of indifference what the bottle contains? The implication is that if you filled bottles with water or anything else, that, then, they would come in duty free. I suggest as an alternative to strike out the word "empty," and to add the words, "except such bottles as contained bona fide commodities.”

A DEPUTY

The words "bona fide” are suggestive.

The intention governing the insertion of the word "empty" was to exclude bottles that were imported merely as containers and to let the tax fall on bottles that were imported as bottles for purposes of being filled when they arrive. This is one case in which it is particularly difficult to give accurate information to the Dáil in regard to the quantity of bottles that will be affected. The import figure for bottles and jars shows the value of £9,000 in the month of January last, or about £96,000 a year. However, that might include, and does include, a considerable number of bottles which would not come under this particular duty. The purpose of confining the duties to glass coloured green or black was that protection might be given at any rate in the first instance to the type of bottle which existing bottle manufacturers can make, and which they say they can make satisfactorily and hold the market with, if they were given a degree of protection. That protection is required mainly from the bottles manufactured on the Continent, not from English bottles. In the case of this particular duty, when it comes up for reconsideration next year, if it is felt then desirable to continue the experiment, it might be regarded as desirable to extend the charge to all bottles, so that if possible not only the bottle industry, but the glass industry, might grow up in the country. I do not know whether it would be possible at all to revive an industry such as the Waterford Glass Industry. But in the meantime there are factories here which make a particular type of bottle. It seems as if this industry, which has existed for a long time in the country, was destined, if something is not done at the present moment, to go out of existence completely. The duty is imposed to prevent that, and to give an opportunity for the extension, and for the opening, perhaps, of new factories in other parts of the country, and ultimately we hope to lead to the extension and alteration of the scope of the entire industry.

The amount of revenue to be derived from this particular tax, it is anticipated, will be very small. The industry dealt with is not a large industry, and the tax may be reckoned as a minor one. I would not like at the moment to risk stating to the Dáil what would be the value of imports of bottles that would come under the title "green and black." I will be able to give that when the Resolution will be under discussion on Report. It is not a very large sum in any case. The question of whether we shall alter the description so that other bottles which might be coloured, say, purple, might be included in case there was danger of the tax being evaded will be carefully considered. It is not intended that the term "green" should include ordinary medicine bottles, or bottles that are really clear glass, but which may have a greenish tinge. There was formerly a tax on bottles of green and coloured glass. The phraseology was adapted, and it may in present circumstances be necessary to extend that, perhaps, to all coloured glass. But the reason we do not put in "coloured glass" at the moment is, that there are bottles, I think, imported for the purpose of holding poison which are blue and of peculiar shape, and we do not desire that these particular bottles should be taxed. It may be possible to amend the phraseology of this Resolution in some particular way, though I think that it probably will stand and it probably will serve its purposes sufficiently. The competing firms are not likely to find it profitable to manufacture bottles, especially for a small market like this, and colour lots of bottles in any particular way. The market here is unlikely to be big enough to make that possible to be done.

I should like something in the nature of an amendment to be put in specifying coloured glass bottles, unless those used for medicinal or chemical purposes. I think that is what I had in mind.

The Minister has said a great deal, but told us hardly anything at all. We do not know what additional benefits will be given by the duty; we do not know what revenue will be produced; and, above all, we do not know what the existing state in the country with regard to glass bottles is. The Minister can hardly be serious in giving us the figures for January of this year. Has he made no more detailed survey further than January of this year? There are figures extending over a longer period. My information, such as it is, is that we are overstocked with bottles in this country.

A DEPUTY

Empty ones.

I am not peculiarly interested in empty bottles. I understand that wine merchants and others have taken advantage of the European rate of exchange to rectify the shortage that existed after the war, and they are not going to buy any bottles within the next year. So we are passing a pious resolution and nothing else. It will be a gesture of good-will to the bottle-making industry of Ringsend, but I do not believe that it will really bring orders for more than a hundred dozen bottles. I think the Minister should give us some slight indication of what we are to derive from this tax beyond mere good-will.

I regret, from my reading of this Resolution, that it does not refer to the Waterford glass industry, which has, unfortunately, been extinct for at least half a century, but it was not in any way concerned with the making of bottles. It was rather of a more high-class distinction, and went in for chandeliers and decanters. However that may be, that fact will not make me oppose this Resolution as such. But I think we are entitled to a little more information, and I cannot see why, if green or black bottles are to be taxed coming into this country, white and yellow and green ones should not also be taxed. If this resolution is to bring about a revival of the bottle-making industry, as I presume it is meant to, it looks very like as if it was in some way a sort of subsidy towards Ringsend, and I say good luck to it. But I do not see that any reason has been given to us why it should be confined to green or black bottles. Green or black bottles, we are told are made mostly on the Continent, and white and other colours probably come from England. But because white and other coloured bottles are made in England is not, in my opinion, sufficient reason why we should put a tariff on them. However that may be, I think we are entitled, at any rate, to know in the first place the extent of the industry in Ireland at present, what has been the decrease, if any, for the last few years, what have been the reasons for that decrease, and what hope there is, by this imposition, of reviving an industry which is now almost, I think, upon its last legs.

I would like to say that it is quite fair to ask the Minister these questions, but I do say that it is scarcely reasonable to expect that the Minister could be in a position to answer the questions put to him.

I will explain that a little later. The Minister, I suppose, is expected to go round the country examining industries, see how they are getting on and find out how much they need to keep them open. What is likely to be the result of a policy such as that? In the first place there is going to be no great effort at local efficiency. There are improvements which may be effected in business, but they will be postponed, so that there will be still greater advantages derived when the taxes, which local interests will bring to the notice of the Minister as a necessity, are imposed. For something like two years the Ministry has had many representations from business people engaged in manufacture, industry, and so on, and every argument and every reason that could possibly be imagined was put forward for subsidies or tariffs, or some other advantages being given to these industries or manufactures, as the case may be.

In this particular case we do know that during the war a very considerable business was done in Ringsend. My information during the last ten years was that a very considerable amount of machinery was installed there and considerable employment given, because at that time it was impossible to import glass bottles. Now, when commerce is free from the restrictive influence of the war, we find that with a normal currency here and an abnormal currency in other countries, the industry of this country, in some respects, is at a disadvantage. We are seeking to remedy that. But it is not possible, and it will not be possible for many years, for a Minister for Finance to make the exhaustive inquiries that are asked for here as a reason why he should impose tariffs or give subsidies. What is likely to happen? The Minister sends down somebody into a factory. Somebody will ask, "Who is that who was here to-day?" and it will come out ultimately that he was from the Government. Then it will be said that the Government is going either to subsidise the industry or to impose a tariff. That will get out amongst the persons who purchase the goods, and it will spread to such an extent that when the tariff is imposed, we are imposing it on a three or six months' supply, instead of a twelve months' supply. It is not possible to make the necessary exhaustive inquiries without disclosing what-your purpose is. Anybody who has had any experience of Budgets and of their effects, knows that quite well. I remember on many occasions hearing of small fortunes being made by people who anticipated a Budget correctly. I am sure Deputy Good or Deputy Hewat, who are business men, must also have heard of that.

It was before our time.

I do not mean personally in their own business. Deputy Byrne, I am sure, will bear me out in that.

That is so.

And I think Deputy Redmond also. It is a fact that this particular industry in Rings-end—the last of its kind in the country perhaps—is in grave danger through no fault of its management. I understand that its management is good, that the output is good, and that there is no real fault to be found; but that it is due to the peculiar circumstances of our time. It is for those reasons that the Minister put forward his proposal. He has not been in communication with the firm, and the firm knows nothing of this proposal.

Of course the Minister has had access to the facts and figures placed before the Fiscal Committee. I congratulate the Minister upon this Resolution. What the President has said is quite true. You have here an industry which for many years was behindhand in attempting to compete against the machine-manufactured bottles with hand-made bottles. In recent years they have seen the error of that and have established a very efficient bottle-making industry. It may surprise certain Deputies that the employer in this business says that the men are perfectly satisfactory. He has not one fault to find with the men in their output or their rate of wages or their demand for higher wages. That is a form of business that ought to be commended and encouraged. What I want to make sure is that while it may be necessary to introduce this Motion in its present form, now that the cat is out of the bag, we can surely look for some kind of collaboration on the part of the people engaged in the industry so that the final Motion will be of a kind which will not allow the purpose of the Motion to be evaded. There should be some change made either in the final Resolution or in the Finance Bill so that there cannot be any evasion. I hope the Minister will consult with those concerned with a view to arriving at a formula which will ensure that the object sought for will be attained. One other question I would like to ask is: whether this Resolution is to come into operation from the 5th or the 12th May?

From the 12th. The actual amounts involved are not very large. We really will not be ready to bring in the other duties so soon, but there are large sums of money involved.

I find myself this evening clothed in sackcloth and ashes because I have been placed in the position of supporting the Government in entering on the slippery slope of protection. As things have developed it would seem that having started on that slope the Government will be compelled to go the whole hog for protection all round. On this question of glass bottles it is true that during the war there was a very considerable boom in home production. The slump that took place following the war in this industry is a slump that has been equally detrimental to the very big bottle industry in Great Britain. In other words, there has been a collapse all round in that industry. That, I think, is largely due to competition brought about by depreciated currencies. I do not think that any tariff we can impose will act as a protective tariff against the importation of foreign bottles. The difference in price is so great that even a duty of 33? per cent. will not, in my judgment, shut out foreign bottles. Deputy Johnson was congratulating himself on the harmony that existed in the industry in Ringsend. May I inform him that one of the two bottle industries in Ringsend was shut down owing to a strike, when the men left about £400 worth of glass to be wasted in the tank. That does not show such a happy position as Deputy Johnson would have us believe.

The employer in question was a different employer.

A different employer to whom?

The one that is likely to be protected.

The position as far as Ringsend is concerned is this: The Ringsend Bottle Company were blowing with the lungs of the gentlemen engaged in that occupation, and it is that bottle industry that was shut down by the strike, the men going out at a moment's notice, and leaving about £400 worth of hot glass ready for use in the tank. I dare say the effect was a very good one. If strikes had always the good effect this strike had, perhaps we would encourage strikes. The actual effect was that the directors of this company have since installed modern machinery, and are ready to start work at any moment. The other firm, at an earlier stage, in fact during the war, installed modern machinery, but have not been in any better position so far as the prosperity of the industry is concerned. I take it that the reason the Resolution specifies glass coloured green or black is because in Ringsend they confine themselves to the making of what is commonly known as the porter bottle. It is very familiar by the colour being black or dark green. I hope the effect that the Minister for Finance expects to achieve by this duty will materialise.

I want to make my position clear, as in voting for this and the other Resolutions I am voting against my better judgment. I am voting for the experiment, as the Minister for Finance put it, but I am very much afraid—and I hope it will be a warning to the country—that in this Finance Bill we are entering on a course of protection which will tend very largely to increase the cost of living as a whole. Whether that is good or bad, I think as an education the experiment will be a very valuable one. I hope it will result in people realising that the experiment cannot stop where it is. I may say that this evening, after the adjournment, I was met by a man who asked—When bottles and other things were being protected, why not matches? According to the information I received, it is much more important that matches should be protected. That will apply to every industry as far as I know.

I just want to say a few words in reply to the President. The case made for the institution of this duty is that the Continental Exchanges are operated in such a way as to blot out this industry. You would imagine that the President, who is looking after the interests of the nation as a whole, would not differentiate in favour of a small, insignificant industry like this one, and neglect a large industry against which the Exchanges are operating adversely. At the present time the Danish krone is 27 to the £, with the result that the Danish pig is selling at £3 in England. £3 is paid for the Danish pig in England, and when that is turned into krones it becomes £4 10s. Paddy's pig, when it is sold in England, brings back only £3. There is no word about the effect of the foreign Exchanges on our agricultural industry. For a small, insignificant industry we have a Customs Resolution that will impose a duty of 33? per cent.

We are not governing England yet.

Resolution put, and agreed to.
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