Here is a case where I would suggest that the Vote should not be brought before the Dáil without some prefatory comment by the Minister in order to indicate to us exactly what the purpose of this £250,000 is, and not leave it to our fruitful or fruitless conjectures.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 19.—RELIEF SCHEMES.
Motion made: "That a sum not exceeding £250,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for contributions towards the relief of unemployment and distress."
I mentioned during the course of this Session that it was intended to supplement other sums which were made available for the provision of employment by a special sum of £250,000. I explained that it was anticipated that by the end of this financial year the sums already in the Road Fund prior to the 1st of April of this year, would come in in respect of the 6d. in the £ under the Damage to Property Act and the amounts that would normally flow into the fund this year, taken together would make a sum of about 1¾ millions. Then in order to complete the round sum of 2 millions for unemployment and for dealing with the improvement of roads and bridges, a sum of £250,000 was added, because in certain cases expenditure in respect of Road Fund moneys could not be justified. It was hoped that in particular areas, where there might be distress during the year, having such a sum as this in the Estimates might relieve the situation, even at a considerable cost, give public satisfaction and ease the local circumstances. There is one particular area which contributes a very considerable sum towards the Road Fund, and also a pretty considerable sum in respect of the 6d. in the £. I do not know that it would be reasonably possible to spend money out of the Road Fund satisfactorily in respect of that particular area while getting a very considerable sum from it for this particular service. There were other means and other opportunities for the expenditure of public money which could be perfectly justified, and it is for that particular purpose that this £250,000 is put down here.
I think the information which the President has given us is not sufficiently definite for the committee to come to a decision on the matter, so as to know exactly the purpose to which this £250,000 is to be devoted. I would like to know whether any of this sum, and if so, how much, has been allocated and what are the particular schemes that are being undertaken. There are districts, as the President rightly says, where there is almost chronic distress, particularly in the congested areas in the West, North-west, and South-west of Ireland. In these areas the people are never far from starvation even in good years But for the past two years or so, especially during the past winter, they were in a very deplorable condition. Certain avenues that were open to them in the past have been closed. Many of them used to go to England and Scotland to work as labourers during the summer and harvest months, and in that way earned something that kept them going. The land, if it could be called land, was never able to sustain them in anything like comfort. It is, I hold, the first duty of the Government to make provision for the people in such areas as these who are living under exceptional conditions. I thoroughly approve of the setting aside of a certain sum of this nature for such a purpose as the relief of people in distressed areas of that kind, but I would like to know whether anything has been done beyond putting the amount down in the Estimates. It is a good thing to see it in the Estimates, but it would be a very much better thing to see it in the pockets of the people. I understand that a certain very small proportion of it has been allocated, but I think there is reason to complain that, although this money has appeared in the Estimates and, I take it, a certain amount has been voted on account, up to the present practically nothing has been spent out of this sum, although there can be no doubt that the necessity for its allocation is very great. I would like to mention especially the area of West Galway—Connemara and the Isles of Arran. There is plenty of useful and productive work that could be done in these areas, such as making roads, planting, drainage, and work in connection with the division of lands and estates in the hands of the Land Commission. I would appeal to the Minister, or whoever is responsible for these relief schemes, to see that the schemes undertaken are really useful and productive ones. If anybody takes the trouble to visit the Arran Islands they will find that some time ago a grant was given to build a pier there. The pier was built and was of considerable use to the fishermen.
took the Chair at this stage.
Later a relief scheme was started. Who was responsible for it I do not know. What happened was that stones were quarried at a high point in the island, brought down and built up on the pier. There is on the pier at present a most remarkable heap of stones. The pier that was of some use to the fishermen before is now quite useless. I cannot understand, and the islanders cannot understand, why it should be necessary to quarry stones at the top of the island, pile them up on the pier and leave them there.
Which island is this?
Mr. O'CONNELL
This is Kilmurvy pier. I hope that whoever is responsible for devising schemes of work will see that useful work is provided. In this very place it was necessary to have roads made. The people asked that the roads should be made, but the other scheme was taken in preference.
There is another district, that is the South Connemara district, which is specially in need of relief at present. There is very great distress there. It is one of those districts that are periodically visited by fever, and it is a district where people are always on the verge of hunger. It is urgently necessary to provide work for the people of that area, and I would urge strongly on the Minister responsible that as much as possible from this Vote should be set free, and set free immediately, to relieve the very great distress that exists in these areas of Connemara.
I agree with Deputy O'Connell that the President's prefatory comment did not really give us a very great deal of information in regard to this Vote, and I think information is really required. I assume that when a sum of £250,000 is set down in a Vote of this kind it is not arrived at merely as a matter of hazard; that it has been shaped by some definite conception of the need that is to be met, and that plans have been framed, at least in outline, to meet that need. Therefore I think it is right that we should be given some information of what these proposals are. I think that the majority of Deputies, when they see the words "Relief Schemes" at the top of a Vote, would at once come to the conclusion, from whatever part of the country they came, that the part of the country that is intended to be served is the extreme West, where, as has already been pointed out, there is such continual want and need. I will not say that that need at present is exceptional; it would be a contradiction in terms to say that it is always exceptional; it very nearly always is exceptional, but we do know that all down the West they have been relying on harvesting in England and Scotland, but for some years, owing to the increase of unemployment in those countries, that is no longer available.
We do know also that the winter has been one of very considerable need there because of the poor potato crop of last year. I have not been in that part of the country for some time, but I receive constant correspondence from there, and I am told that potato blight has appeared, and that people are looking forward to the immediate future with some apprehension and anxiety, and schemes by which relief could be brought to them are very badly needed. I am perfectly sure that the Government is fully alive to this need, and that it is prepared to meet it directly this Vote has been passed. I am not now questioning its information in regard to the need that does exist. All I am asking for is this. Here is a vote for £250,000: let the President state to us, on the supposition which I think is a reasonable supposition, that before many minutes have passed this Vote will be passed, what will be done with it to meet the very extreme need in the extreme west of this country.
There are two things that I am not satisfied with regarding this Vote. In the first place I am not satisfied with the information we have got regarding how it is to be expended, where it is to be expended, and what the schemes are. Secondly, I am not satisfied with the amount, which is not at all adequate, to my mind, to relieve the distress that prevails all over the country. I suppose I should speak more particularly for my own county. There is an old saying, "Is ar máithe leis féin a dhineann an cat cronán." There are, I suppose, at least 80,000 or 100,000 people unemployed, and to suggest that the amount now being voted will be anything in the nature of relief, notwithstanding other means of relieving unemployment, is, I think, asking us to expect too much. In some of the congested areas, I understand, other money is released for the relief of distress. There are some congested districts to which these relief schemes will not apply, and they are rather unfortunate in that, because it simply amounts to this, that the old Congested Districts Board acquired land in these areas, and therefore the grants that are released are not applicable to these other districts. In the apportionment of this grant in relief schemes these districts where the old Congested Districts Board did not acquire land, and this other money is not applicable, should get prior treatment. I speak with some knowledge of the hardships and the sufferings in some parts of the west of Ireland. I know that from Black Head to Loop Head, right on the whole west coast of Clare, and some ten miles inland, there is a good deal of distress, and I know also that this area—I might say practically the whole of Clare—would lend itself to a good deal of reconstruction and reproductive work.
There are such things as drainage schemes, such things as dredging harbours, such things as fisheries, and the promotion and the subsidising of these things. I should like very much to hear the Minister tell us how much is to be used for these reproductive works, how it is to be applied, and to what districts. With regard to the total amount, I want to make one point. We have got to consider that the life of the nation is dependent to some extent upon how far we can prevent distress from prevailing and unemployment from extending. Last year, something like £11,300,000 was spent to preserve the nation. It was spent on the Army Vote. This year this Vote is something like £4,000,000, and yet we are asked to do with £250,000 to save people from starvation in many districts. I think more should be given, and that more serious cognisance should be taken of the serious situation amongst the unemployed and amongst the poor in some of the seaboard districts, and I would put it very strongly to the Minister that he should give us more information, tell us what the schemes are, tell us how much is to be apportioned to each scheme, and tell us if there is any possibility of more money being given for this very essential and very pressing work.
I would like to know from the President whether the moneys proposed to be voted in connection with these relief schemes will be available for keeping in repair many piers and small harbours that were erected around the coast, some of them in comparatively recent years, and in many cases erected to provide immediate employment in the particular areas. It is the opinion of several Deputies that many of these piers and harbours are at the moment falling into a state of decay.
I want to know from the President if the moneys voted under this relief scheme will be available for the purpose of doing the necessary repairs to those piers and harbours and, in that way, to provide employment for the many people who are unemployed in these particular districts. Work of that kind is really necessary and useful. I think one of the objects that one has to keep in mind under schemes of this nature is to try and make the work on which the unemployed may be engaged serve as useful a purpose as possible. I think it would be very desirable that the moneys spent on these piers and harbours around the coast should serve a useful purpose. In many cases these piers and harbours are in a state of decay, and if money were spent on them it would stop that decay. If the President could see his way to accept that point of view I am sure it would help, not alone the local district, but it would also help towards the maintenance and the keeping in a good state of preservation of the piers and harbours.
I desire to draw the attention of the responsible Ministers to the acute distress that prevails at present in North Donegal, particularly in Inishowen. In portions of the Inishowen Peninsula there is an outbreak of fever at the present time, and there is a great want of employment. Money is very scarce, and the people are in a very bad way. I know people living there, and they have to exist on stir-about Indian meal three times a day, and in many instances they are unable to have milk with it. When this money is let loose, I trust that the claims of North Donegal for a share of it will not be forgotten.
With Deputy Hogan I would like to impress on the Minister how totally inadequate this sum of £250,000 is. When I saw the amount which the Government proposed to make available for relief works, I had to ask myself the question whether the Ministry had any real knowledge of the position in the country, or whether the Ministry really recognises the position in the country as it is to-day. I wonder does the Ministry realise that there was never such misery and hunger in this country since black '47 as there is to-day. I do not believe that the Ministry realises that. I dare say one of the reasons is, that through pressure of business they have been more or less confined to their offices for the last twelve months or two years, and have to depend for their information on their officials going through the country. But Deputies of the Dáil who spend practically every week-end among their constituents see such scenes as processions of the unemployed and of children going practically half-naked and bootless, and, in a number of cases, half-hungry, to school. Deputies, in that way, have borne in upon them what the real position is. If I would be in order, I would like to move that this amount be increased to at least £1,000,000.
ACTING-CHAIRMAN
The Deputy cannot propose an increase in the Estimate, but he may propose a decrease.
I am not disposed to do that on this Vote. I think it is the first duty of the Government to try and provide employment for the people of this country, and to give every man who wants work and is willing to work an opportunity to provide bread and butter for his family. The position to-day, to my mind, is more serious than ever it has been. Realising and knowing what it is in my own particular district, I can well realise what the misery and the privation must be in the West of Ireland. In passing, I might say that it seems rather strange—and I wonder if there is anything behind it— that the campaign of publicity taken up by the newspapers some months ago on behalf of the people in the West of Ireland should cease so suddenly. I take it, it did not cease because the misery that existed there had been relieved to any great extent. I would like to know from the Minister what amount of the million and three-quarters, which he told us last year would be made available for the relief of unemployment, has been made available and what schemes it has been made available for. As far as I know, the only thing that the Ministry have tried to set going in the way of employment is the reconstruction of roads. I would like to tell the Minister that the reconstruction of roads has been held up in a large number of places throughout the country, because the county councils—and the county surveyors in particular—have not made any effort to co-operate with the Government in trying to relieve unemployment. The Minister, the other day, in reply to a question I put to him, in connection with the provision of machinery, stated that instructions were sent out as far back as last January or February to the different county councils to make suitable provision for getting extra machinery.
As a matter of fact, in a number of cases county councils had not even gone to the trouble of looking for estimates from firms for the machinery until within practically the last month. The result is that while, in a number of districts throughout the country, there are thousands of pounds made available by the Government, it is actually waiting there because the county councils have not worked in co-operation with the Government, and men are still walking around unemployed. I think the Government ought to do something in that matter, and that they should also take cognisance of the fact that unemployment is more rife in the country to-day than it has been since the year 1847. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in introducing his Unemployment Insurance Bill the other day, told us that he hoped that the Bill which he was introducing would relieve about 82,000 men. I take it that at the present time there must be at least between 80,000 and 120,000 or 130,000 people unemployed in this country. I suggest that that is an extraordinary state of affairs—a state of affairs that should not be allowed to exist, and I think the Dáil should insist on the Ministry making a determined effort to deal with the matter. I submit that the Ministry has not made any real effort to deal with this question of unemployment.
I wish to support this Vote. I agree with the last speaker that the amount is altogether inadequate. Anyone going through the country—particularly in the poorer portions of the West of Ireland—cannot fail to be struck with the great depression that prevails there at the present time. The harvest last year— as most Deputies know—was a very bad one. If it was bad on good land in the centre and south of Ireland, one can imagine how bad it was on the poor land of Mayo, Galway, Donegal and the Western counties. The potato and oats crops were a failure. Two months ago I was informed that the people in many parts of Mayo, if they sowed the seed, would not have enough potatoes to support them. The oats supply was exhausted also. They had to depend for their groceries on the credit of the local shopkeeper, and, if that was the state of things two months ago, it is worse to-day. I am greatly disappointed that this work has not been in progress for the last month, but, even now, it should be pushed on and employment given to these people, who are in a very bad way. They are actually on the verge of starvation in many portions of Mayo and Galway. They are buying Indian meal by the half sack. There are two things to be remembered in connection with this. First of all, they are following a bad harvest, and secondly, there is general depression all round. If ever there was a year in which they should get a little help it is this year. Under the Land Act it is proposed to increase the holdings of these small people in the West. Therefore, in two or three years time we may look to it——
ACTING-CHAIRMAN
I think the Deputy must not refer to the Land Act in two or three years time. We are discussing the Estimates for the year, and if we go outside the Estimates we might get into trouble.
I will not refer to the Land Act. But these people will have larger farms in a few years time, and if they are not helped now they will get into a very bad state. There is a further reason why the Government should not hesitate to deal generously with them. Owing to the neglect of the British Government and the Land Commission, which had charge of a lot of these estates, and also owing to the Congested Districts Board which kept them on hands for several years, the old bogs in many districts have had to be cut away. The people have had to look for new bogs, but they have no roads leading into them. You cannot expect people to build these roads themselves. These people cannot, of course, get coal, and they cannot get the turf which is within their reach, because of the lack of roads. They are crying for help, but the help given so far is entirely inadequate. I hope the Government will press on with the expenditure of the money they have, and I would like to see them introducing a supplementary estimate to deal with the situation adequately.
This estimate under the heading of "Relief Schemes" has produced in this House a very melancholy debate. We have heard of the great distress throughout the country, and we have heard it objected to that the amount is only a quarter of a million, although the President has indicated that the total amount to be spent is something like two millions. I think it is very melancholy to see members of this House get up and say that so far as the West of Ireland is concerned the condition of the people there is chronic and that they are on the verge of starvation. No matter how much you talk about relief works, relief works are only temporary and can only give employment temporarily. If the same state of affairs, after the expenditure of money on relief work is going to be what it has been described in this House, it is not relief work you want but something permanent. The great trouble about relief work always is that unless the money that has been spent in connection with relief creates a permanent stability, so far as employment is concerned, it will not be of very much use. We have heard demands made that a very much larger sum should be spent at the present time, but we have heard nothing as to where the money is to come from.
I think the Deputies must realise that one of the causes of the trouble in Ireland at present is the tremendously heavy weight of taxation which the people are called upon to bear. So far from the lashing about and expenditure of money in this way relieving the position permanently, I say that it is going to be a further drag on the country, and that the burden of the cost is going to make it very much more difficult to resuscitate the means of employment for the unemployed. Let us be clear on that subject. The real relief that is going to take place as regards unemployment is the extension of industry and in no other way, so far as I can see, is any permanent relief going to be given. That would be enormously helped by the most economic management of the finances of the country, and much more relief would be given in that way than by the expenditure of promiscuous sums. This question of the time being particularly severe, is not, I think, based on real grounds at all. We are at the period in which employment on the land ought to be at its maximum. We have heard that the harvesting operations at the other side of the water have ceased, and that the harvesters have ceased to go across. From my own knowledge I see the harvesters going across to Scotland and England. That, of course, is only a help, but the real basis on which you can relieve people in the west of Ireland is to get on with land distribution, and get the people to be self-supporting as far as possible, and so far from increasing this amount that has been allocated, it ought to be spread as far as possible. We have heard that this £250,000 has not been ear-marked to any particular purpose, and Deputy after Deputy has got up and said that it ought to be spent here, there, and elsewhere. So far as I can see from the claims made here, this £250,000 will go a very short way to meet the demands that will be made upon it. That is true, but what is the alternative? The alternative on the Labour Benches is to increase the amount. I say that so far from doing good it is going to hurt permanently the ability of the people to tackle this unemployment question.
It will not hurt the small farmer to be kept alive until he gets a bigger farm.
I would have great sympathy with Deputy Sears if I really believed that the situation is as bad as he says.
Go down there for a while.
I do not think it is so bad. At all events I tell Deputy Sears that, so far as the West is concerned, if he will encourage people to get the country into a stable and peaceable condition, and if he gets people from other parts of the world to go down and admire his scenery, more money will be spent in that way, and more help given to the people than could be given through any unemployment grant.
Like my colleagues who have spoken from these benches, I suggest that the Minister has not given sufficient information as to why, when, and where this money is going to be spent. I have no hesitation in stating that the amount of money which it is suggested should be spent is altogether inadequate. It is all very well for Deputy Hewat to complain about the initiation here of a melancholy debate. I want to remind him that there are worse things than melancholy debates. There is a lot of melancholia prevalent to-day amongst the unemployed and their families. I rather think that he has not taken the trouble to examine from a humane point of view the question of unemployment and the hardships that exist in this country, in consequence of the lack of employment for the last two or three years. It is all very well for him to say that we want better security in the country, or that we want stability in the country. That is recognised in these benches as well as in any other part of the House. At the same time the present conditions have been brought about in this country by contributions which the unemployed had nothing whatever to do with. I want to know are they to be victims because this country has had a little revolution of its own for the past two or three years.
To come back again to the question of the £250,000, I do believe, like Deputy Morrissey, that the Government do not realise the gravity of the situation, that the Government have been led to this decision of granting £250,000 by the figures of unemployment that are supplied to them through their officials. Some time ago I drew the attention of the House to the fact that the numbers published in the newspapers of the unemployed in the Free State were not correct, or anything like correct. Week after week, the alleged number of unemployed in the Free State is published in the daily newspapers. I have already told the Dáil, and I tell them again now, that that does not at all represent the number of unemployed in the Free State. It represents the number who are in receipt of benefit through the Unemployment Exchanges, and it disregards altogether the people who are out of benefit and those who have never received benefit, and they are a large proportion of the population of the Free State to-day.
Again, coming back to the question of grants, as regards the last grant that was made, and which is being administered at the present time through the county councils in the Free State, there was a stipulation that none but ex-National soldiers should be employed. The Deputies on these benches objected to that. They had no antipathy to ex-National soldiers, but there had been men idle for the previous two or three years who got no chance of doing any kind of work in the State.
ACTING-CHAIRMAN
I think unless that amount is calculated in this sum the Deputy cannot discuss its administration.
I think I will be able to convince you that I am in order. I said at that time that we objected to that. We were told that these people did useful work and all the rest of it. I think the Minister will understand that that grant in itself was not sufficient to absorb the number of ex-soldiers who were unemployed and that the ordinary citizens who had done very useful work in the interests of the State were not considered, and that there should at least have been another grant to give relief to those people. I think the Minister ought to seriously consider now what is to be done for those people who did not serve in the National army but who did useful work in other ways in the interests of the State. Deputy Morrissey suggested that he might be in order in moving an increase in the Vote, and you rightly ruled that he was not. I am now going to move an amendment that I think is in order. It is that this estimate be referred back for reconsideration with a view to an increase. Is that amendment in order?
ACTING-CHAIRMAN
I am afraid not.
I think it has been ruled in order before. It is the only way in which a matter of this kind can be reconsidered. It must be borne in mind that we are not allowed to refer back a motion on a plea for the reduction of the Minister's salary. Therefore, this is the only way that it can be referred back for reconsideration with a view to an increase. That has been the ruling hitherto.
ACTING-CHAIRMAN
I am grateful to Deputy Johnson. Our Constitution departs from the usual course of parliamentary practice. Elsewhere the normal way to get an increase would be to reduce the Minister's salary. That being so, I reconsider my decision and accept Deputy Corish's motion, which will, however, have to be seconded.
I move that the Estimates be referred back for consideration with a view to an increase. I do think that the Government ought to really set about considering this matter from a humane point of view, and they ought to try and get in touch with people in the country who know the position. On the occasion of the last debate we were told that an unemployment committee had been set up by the Government party with a view to examining the whole question of unemployment and to suggest schemes to the Government which they might finance. I think we have a right to know now what stage of the deliberations that committee have arrived at, whether there has been any finality in connection with the deliberations and if the schemes they set out to consider are to be financed by any portion of this money. With one thing my colleague, Deputy Morrissey, referred to I do not altogether agree. He says that the county councils in the Free State have not co-operated with the Government with a view—
ACTING-CHAIRMAN
Deputy Corish is now moving a definite motion. He can speak to that motion, not to Deputy Morrissey's previous speech.
I rise to second the amendment. I think it is time that the Ministry should tackle this problem of unemployment instead of tinkering with it, because they have done nothing but tinker with it. For the past twelve months we have put many schemes before them, and they have been turned down. In referring this back for reconsideration I think the President when he considers carefully all that has been said here this evening will agree that £1,000,000 is not too much to meet the situation as it stands now. In County Kildare we have prepared drainage and road improvement schemes, estimated at about £52,000. Surely £1,000,000 would not be too much to meet similar schemes in the other twenty-five counties. If the President looks carefully into these schemes and the way they have been thought out to relieve unemployment in the most populous centres of the county he will see that we have done our best, and I expect that he would recommend us every penny of the money that we ask for. By doing this he would give confidence to the workers of the country. They would feel that there was at least one Minister in Dublin who was looking after their interests and not turning them down.
As Deputy Morrissey says, the Ministry seem to think that the cases we put up are not so serious as we represent them to be. Already I have been told that an inspector has sent in a report which differs from mine, and he says that there was not so much distress in my county as I stated. We are in touch more with the workers than an inspector who will go down for two or three days and make a report on what he sees there. I would like the Ministry to believe that we come up here to describe the true conditions as we see them in our own areas, and that we are not self-seeking. We want to relieve the unemployed, and we come to you to ask you to do it. If you do not do it, the responsibility will lie upon the heads of the Ministry, and as far as our constituents are concerned, they will say that if any Government that is elected is not a better one than this, it is not worth much support.
I have listened to the discussion so far and I think it has been largely——
ACTING-CHAIRMAN
The amendment is that this Estimate should be referred back for re-consideration. The Deputy cannot discuss the general question on this proposal. He can only discuss the question as to whether the Estimate is to be referred back or not.
My sphere is rather limited, but I will endeavour to make the best of the circumstances.
ACTING-CHAIRMAN
If the Deputy wishes to speak on the general question he could wait until this proposal is disposed of; then we shall revert to the general question.
resumed the Chair.
The proposal is that this Estimate should be referred back for consideration with a view to increasing the amount. In putting down this amount we had to bear in mind several things. We had not got a free hand, and if Deputy Johnson were here on these benches he would not have a free hand in dealing with this matter. We have to take into account how much money is being spent generally on this matter which provides employment, or circulates money with a view to giving employment. In considering that, it is necessary to examine the Estimates and see to what extent monies are being provided which, in the ordinary natural course of events, should give considerable employment during the year or which would, in the alternative, provide some compensation for persons unemployed.
Within the last couple of weeks we had a measure before the Dáil which continues covenanted or uncovenanted benefit—I do not know which, but it is one or the other. We also had a measure within the last few days putting forward proposals under the Trade Facilities Bill, embracing a sum of about one and one-quarter millions. We have already passed an estimate involving a sum of £197,810 for new works under the Board of Works. We will have an estimate for £7,333,000 in respect of damage to property, representing awards. We will also have an estimate for £587,000 for housing and an estimate for £21,000 for forestry operations. Then there will be the Army estimate for £243,997 for works and buildings. If there be people in this country who can provide a larger amount for those services, then the sooner they take up the positions that we have here, the better.
The President has turned down this amendment with what seems to be a certain amount of contumely. He suggests it is one of those amendments that should not be brought forward because it cuts across Ministerial policy. He has submitted certain figures indicating that here and there through the estimates are considerable sums of money which, when spent, will give a sufficient amount of employment. I hope the Minister's expectations will be warranted in the fulfilment. It was expected that some of these sums would be spent during the last year or two, but they have not yet been spent. Take, for instance, the monies for reconstruction which represent the largest amount. We have no assurance whatever that these sums are to be spent in the coming year. But even if all those monies were spent in the way the Minister expects, we are still faced with a problem of unemployment, the kind of unemployment which is not going to be cured by expenditure in the trades which the Minister himself has put forward as trades which would be benefitted. There are other people unemployed than those who would be affected by rebuilding.
This question is one which cuts very deep, and if might easily invite discussion. It is a big social problem; the whole social position is involved in this question of unemployment. For eighteen months we have been impressing on the Dáil and the Ministry the necessity for looking ahead and for dealing seriously and earnestly with this matter. When the Unemployment Insurance Act was brought forward last March twelve months, the question was discussed and urgings were forthcoming from those benches that unless the matter was tackled seriously, then the Unemployment Insurance Act, which was being brought forward at the time, was going to lead to greater distress, rather than to an improvement of the position.
The Ministry hoped then that the position would be eased and that there would be general prosperity by October last. They gave us no reason for that expectation, but it was on that expectation they built their policy. The expectation was not fulfilled. They proceeded to demobilise large numbers of men from the Army and they threw them upon the already overcrowded labour market, as it is called. They simply added that number, or a large proportion of that number, of demobilised men, to the numbers already seeking employment in vain. They have introduced certain schemes relating to road work with the object of absorbing large numbers of unemployed. No doubt considerable numbers have been absorbed. The method of doing that has been very doubtfully satisfactory.
Notwithstanding what has been done, every Deputy knows that the stories of distress coming from every village and town in the country are very serious indeed. People are suffering quietly. They are seeing such reserves as they had, vanish. They are seeing their children going half-hungry, half-nourished, and half-clothed. It is half-nourishment is the trouble, and it is worse, in a sense, than absolute hunger, because it is so long sustained. Absolute hunger results in a more or less speedy death, but the half-hunger that is almost universal in many towns in the country is what is destroying the morale and the physical capacity of the people. Ministers do not seem to realise how intense this suffering and distress is, and how widespread it is. The method of dealing with it does not seem to indicate that the Ministry have taken as serious notice of the problem as they ought to.
Deputy Hewat, of course, has taken the line which one might have expected him to take. That is that what you have to concentrate upon is the re-establishment of the ordinary functions of trade, the re-establishment of confidence, and as a natural result you will have trade revived and unemployment will disappear. But, unfortunately, that does not result in the disappearance of the unemployed. The ordinary functions of trade, unfortunately, have never absorbed, except in time of war, the unemployed. If the present unemployed are to wait until that confidence, which is desired by everyone, is restored to such an extent that every industry will be flourishing, the people who are at present unemployed and who are at present looking at their families going hungry, will have to wait too long.
I suggest to the Ministry that they ought not to consider the Government of this country as something set apart from the national life, to receive taxation as they can gather it in, to spend it in such a way as they consider necessary and desirable, and to leave the whole of the problem of feeding, clothing and housing the people as something outside their responsibility. If it is a fact that the ordinary course of industry and commerce has failed to supply the needs of the people, then something must be done to compel the people who are responsible for those ordinary functions of industry and commerce to so order their affairs as to ensure that the people will be supplied with the ordinary requirements of life. If they fail in that, then it is the responsibility of the Government to call the people together and to do this necessary and first essential work of Government—to see that the people get food. We have no right to say that because the merchant or manufacturer cannot find a market and cannot employ a child's father, that, therefore, the child must go hungry. We cannot afford to take up that attitude, and I say it is the duty of the Dáil and the Government as the Executive Authority, to take that fact into consideration and to put that child's father in a position to earn money to feed the child.
One does not want to speak here with a view to exciting emotions or passions. But I say that we have obviously before us a duty in this matter, and that is to say that the man who is willing to work, the machine that is capable of turning out products, and the land that is capable of growing food—that these three must be brought together, and that the people must be fed and clothed. This method of voting £250,000 to do a little here and a little there to relieve distress, as it is called, and to relieve unemployment by healing a little wound here and a little wound there, is not tackling this problem in the way to solve it—at any rate to the extent which will save the country from trouble, as I am confident that as soon as the people realise the condition in which they are being placed trouble will ensue.
It has been one of my hopes that the state of the country would be such, and might continue to be such, as to allow the Government to tackle this problem of unemployment in a serious manner, without having to be prompted by social troubles. But the delay in dealing with it and the inaction is practically inviting men to make themselves troublesome in the country. Then they know, if the example of every other country is taken, that once trouble ensues, as a result of social unrest and excitement, the Government will respond to the necessities of the case. It is very much better to deal with the problem calmly and seriously, without having to wait until that trouble ensues, and then deal with it in a feverish way. I would ask the Dáil to approve of this amendment and to express its will by referring the Vote back, so that the problem should be tackled in a manner which would go right to the roots and say that we are bound by our responsibilities to find a way by which a man willing to work can get the opportunity to work and be paid for that work.
There is work for the men in Marino if they would work.
Are you going to make the people all over the country suffer for the faults of these men?
That is one case in point. There are others in the other counties.
Is that an excuse to make——
I make no excuses. Our proposals are all right.
I would ask the President to give proof of his statement that this happened in any other counties.
The Minister for Local Government has stated it here.
The Minister for Local Government ought to be here to prove the statements.
Question: "That the vote be referred back for re-consideration"—put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 46.
Tá.
- Seán Buitléir.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- Séamus Mac Cosgair.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Liam O Daimhín.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Tadhg O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
Níl.
- Pádraig F. Baxter.
- Richard H. Beamish.
- Seoirse de Bhulbh.
- Próinsias Bulfin.
- John J. Cole.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin, Bean Uí Dhrisceóil.
- Patrick J. Egan.
- Seán de Faoite.
- Desmond Fitzgerald.
- John Good.
- Connor Hogan.
- Seosamh Mac 'a Bhrighde.
- Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- Patrick McKenna.
- Martin M. Nally.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Mícheál O hAonghusa.
- Criostóir O Broin.
- Richard O'Connell.
- Partholán O Conchubhair.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Tadhg O Donnabháin.
- Peadar O Dubhghaill. Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Donchadh O Guaire.
- Aindriú O Láimhín.
- Séamus O Leadáin.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Domhnall O Mocháin.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Patrick K. Hogan (Luimneach).
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Seán Príomhdhail.
- Patrick W. Shaw.
- Liam Thrift.
- Nicholas Wall.
Amendment declared lost.
I move to report Progress.
Agreed.