I wish to ask the Minister if he has any statement to make about Consular reports.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - COMMITTEE ON FINANCE RESUMED.
On that point and on one or two others to which I referred at an earlier stage and which the Minister did not deal with as fully as I expected him to do, I desire to say a few words. In regard to the forthcoming Conference I appreciate fully the delicacy of the situation from the Minister's point of view, and I do not want to do anything that might embarrass him in these difficulties. He has said that if this State is not represented at the forthcoming Inter-Allied Conference we will not be committed, or held thereafter to be committed, to anything either done, or resulting from what is done there. I think he has made that case, and so far so good. I move one further stage, and I ask is he willing to assert a claim that the Free State shall be represented at that Inter-Allied Conference? There is a precedent for it. It was a precedent established by the State to which we are likened so frequently in our Constitution, Canada. Sir Robert Borden—and I do not think any person is going to raise the question of what may be described in the accepted term as loyalty in the matter —made that claim for Canada, in the negotiations that led to the Versailles Treaty. The first of the conditions precedent that were claimed by Sir Robert Borden on behalf of Canada was that in respect of negotiations the Government of Canada should be consulted before preliminary arrangements were finally concluded, and the second was that Canada should be directly represented at any conference of the kind. We do know that on other matters conferences have been held quite recently on the continent. The forthcoming Inter-Allied Conference at London is a continuity of these conferences. Independent nations, known as Dominions, were asked if they desired to be represented, and at each of these two conferences they were represented. Mr. McKenzie King stated they had been so invited, and had taken advantage of that undertaking, and were there represented. Therefore, I say there would be a precedent and a point in any representation made by him that the Free State as one of the States of Europe in a conference so closely and vitally affecting peace in the continent in which we as an independent State and independent community with Great Britain, should be represented. The second matter is in regard to these Consular reports to which Mr. McBride has called attention. The Minister was invited by myself and Deputy Cooper to give particular attention to one or two of these places. Geneva explains itself. Representation there is mainly diplomatic representation.
At £600 a year.
Whatever it is, it is diplomatic representation, and the size of it does not affect the issue. Take Rotterdam, the trade with Holland consists mainly of agricultural raw material and the total amount of that business extends to about £6,000. That business consists of raw materials and wants very little encouragement. We can only test the value received if we receive or have access to the Consular reports published at regular intervals by these various representatives of the Minister.
I merely wish to ask the Minister a question. It is in relation to passports. A great many people in this country have had passports viséd. It costs £2 10s. under the new regulations. It appears that they are called upon to have these passports re-viséd and to pay the same fee over again. I do not think that that is fair or just. There must be something wrong about it; and it requires surely some investigation by the Minister so as to see that these people who were prevented from sailing are not called upon to pay again the fee already paid.
Has the general discussion been concluded?
It has not yet been concluded. We are discussing sub-heads (a) and (b)—all the items on the Estimate except Publicity.
I do not wish to delay the Dáil. I think this Estimate is an insult. I do not see why it should be continued. I have been converted by Deputy Gorey to his opinions as to the value of representatives abroad. For a long time I believed that something could be done by them, that they could be of some use. But I am now satisfied that they can be of no use as they exist at present, and that the money that is being asked for to-day for their upkeep is just money wasted. The Minister spoke about finding alternative markets. That is talking as if the representatives whom he has at present in Europe were engaged in finding alternative markets, whereas in reality they have no power, they have no status, they have no position, they have no means of obtaining alternative markets, and they are not backed up by the Government which sent them out for that ostensible purpose. I had hoped that some day the Government would have taken a serious view as to the object of these services and the object of these representatives, and that they would have considered whether they should not be recruited from men with some expert training for the purposes of the job they are sent out to do. The Minister has apparently decided that no steps will be taken in that direction. At the present time, in the United States every year, over 1,000 men are leaving the Universities, having gone through a course in foreign service, involving, if not expert knowledge, at least a general grounding in the principles of modern Commercial Law, private and public International Law, Maritime Insurance, Markets and Exchange. And these men are generally fitted for the position of representatives either of a firm or of the Government in a foreign country. At the present time we have in Dublin a School of Commerce which is anything but satisfactory, and I doubt that the Deputies in this House can say very much in favour of its operations or of any result that has been received from this School of Commerce. If there was a definite programme or a definite object in view, then it would be possible to organise a small and efficient service for the purpose of promoting the trade of this country. At the present time there is no such intention, there is no such will in the Government. Some day, when we have got a National Government, when we have a Government which is willing to stand up for the rights of our people wherever they may be; some day when we have a Government which is willing to take opinions on administration and on the methods of administration, a Government which is really interested in economy, really interested in efficiency, and really interested in producing an administration of this country which will be in accordance with the wishes of the people——
I am afraid Deputy Esmonde is going outside the Vote and the discussion. He is discussing the Government generally. We are only discussing the Ministry of External Affairs.
Some day it will be necessary to have representatives abroad, but at the present time it is unnecessary, and is waste of money. They are not backed up by the Government and there is no will on the part of the Government to back them up. They have no powers or functions and they have no money to carry out the duties which are required of them; and I have, therefore, been absolutely converted to the outlook and to the opinion which was expressed on former occasions by Deputy Gorey, that this expenditure on these representatives abroad is at the present time an absolute waste of money. The time will come, later on possibly, when they will be necessary and valuable. A time will come when we shall be anxious to get the latest ideas in administration and the latest methods of administration from every country in the world. At the present time all ideas, all suggestions, are rejected which are not English suggestions or which are not in accordance with the tradition of the British Treasury. A time may come when we in this country will be interested in the study and the possibilities of State enterprise; and in order to carry out that idea it would be necessary to have men abroad who would have the advantage of seeing these State enterprises in operation. At the present time there is no such desire on the part of the Government, and for that reason I see no cause whatever why these representatives should be kept on. The Government has deliberately turned down the Irish race; they have deliberately decided that they will have nothing to do with the Irish race throughout the world. I am not talking about the remarks in this Dáil, but about their actions. They have deliberately decided that the Irish race, which produced something like over 10,000,000 dollars in order to create this State, are not to be invited to assist us, to give us what expert assistance they could give in building up the State. The Government has decided to reject all such offers——
On a point of order, while these remarks are very interesting and may help to secure for Deputy Esmonde at the next election the quota which he failed to get at the last, they are entirely out of order.
I have already drawn his attention to the fact that he was travelling outside the discussion.
Now that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has raised a personal question with regard to me, am I entitled to answer him? If that is the case I here challenge the Minister for Industry and Commerce to contest at any time and under any conditions the County of Wexford against me.
I think you will have to get my permission.
I may have to apply to the senior member for the constituency, but I think not to the most junior member.
I do not wish to detain the Dáil any longer. I think it is a waste of money to vote money in respect of representatives abroad who can do nothing, who have no functions, who have no powers, but who could have functions and who could have powers and who could collect a large amount of money by fees and by visas if only they got permission from the Ministry. But that permission has been refused to them; and under the present circumstances I think the Dáil would be ill-advised to grant this money for a useless service.
As my name has been brought in——
Mr. O'CONNELL
You have a new supporter.
In one direction the Deputy's speech has convinced me that we ought to have another Ministry and another Faculty. I suggest a Ministry of Gas and Smoke, and a Faculty of Gas and Smoke. He talks about finding a market for Irish produce all over the world——
On a point of order, I did not. I did nothing of the sort. I never suggested such a thing.
An alternative market to the English market, presumably for Irish produce. Perhaps he did not say for Irish produce, but he meant that if he meant anything.
I have said nothing of the kind. I never referred to such a thing.
(who resumed the Chair): The Deputy is under a misapprehension about that.
Perhaps the Deputy did not know what he said. If the Ministry of External Affairs or any other Ministry is able to get a market in any country for Irish produce where all the Foreign Ministries, the Ministries of every other country have failed, if it is able to get a market for our agricultural produce in any other part of the world where the Argentine, and New Zealand and America have failed I do think that it will deserve a great deal of credit, and I am sure that this country will have no hesitation in giving it that credit. When Deputies stand up in this Dáil and talk a lot of smoke they act as if they thought that this Dáil is really a school room, and that they were talking to a lot of junior boys. It is degrading to the Dáil to listen to some of the piffle that has been spoken here for the last 15 or 20 minutes.
Vote put and agreed to.
I beg to move the suspension of the sitting until 7 o'clock.
Question put and agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 6.20 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m., An Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the Chair.