Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Jun 1925

Vol. 12 No. 11

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 49.—FORESTRY FUND (GRANT IN AID).

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £20,743 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh dá de Mhárta, 1926, chun Deontas i gCabhair don Chiste Foraoise (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58).

That a sum not exceeding £20,743 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for a Grant in Aid of the Forestry Fund (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58).

MINISTER for LANDS and AGRICULTURE (Mr. Hogan)

This Estimate is explained very well by the different sub-heads. There is an increase of £7,920 this year. That is partly offset by reason of the fact that, in the Forestry Fund last year, there remained £2,000 unexpended, so that the net increase is about £5,000. The programme on which the Forestry Branch of the Department of Agriculture is working is to reach a wooded area of 200,000 acres—that is to say, land either planted by the Department of Agriculture or actually wooded when they take it over. They hope to reach that area by the planting of about 2,500 acres per annum. Up to date, there has been acquired about 29,561 acres. They have planted about 9,957 acres, so that we have the nucleus of a State forest. We are in the position at the moment that we can get land rather easily, because the Forestry Department and the Land Commission are working in co-operation. When land is acquired by the Land Commission which is not usable for any other purpose—it may be scheduled in the returns as mountain or bog—it can be dealt with by the Forestry Branch, because you do not require really good land for forestry. The Forestry Department being in touch with the Land Commission can acquire land pretty easily and pretty reasonably. The main item in this Forestry Estimate is £24,000 for forestry operations, as against £21,000 last year. That contains a charge of a possible £6,000 for the acquisition of lands in the coming year. In that sub-head also is included a sum of about £10,000 for maintenance charges on existing forests, also £3,000 cultural charges in connection with existing plantations, and £4,200 for actual planting and nursery work.

As I have said, the normal programme would be about 2,200 acres a year. This Vote was eked out to a certain extent last year by a grant from the Relief Grant. Deputies will have to remember these two things about forestry, that forestry operations do not mature for a comparatively long time; they will not even begin to mature for ten or fifteen years, and substantial results are not shown until about thirty years. Deputies also should remember this, that forestry, or operations in connection with forestry, are not particularly fruitful from the point of view of giving employment.

The amount of employment given in this connection for any definite sum of money, is much smaller than the amount of employment that could be given for the expenditure of the same sum of money on practically any other operation. Some people hold the point of view that forestry operations are an ideal way of giving employment. Well, they are not; they are rather a costly way, because you give very little employment for a very big expenditure, and because the results of the employment you do give do not mature for a number of years. I think that that is the only item in the Vote that requires explanation. Advances for forestry operations are advances to county councils who have small nurseries of their own for trees, and for advice and assistance. Forestry education is in connection with the training of apprentices who will become foresters afterwards, and the £50 for agency and advisory services is to cover certain incidental expenses in connection with people who wish to plant this year.

Mr. HEWAT

I wonder if we are taking a sufficiently important view of this branch of Governmental activity. It seems to me that this subject is treated as being a very insignificant portion of the economy of the country. As a result of the devastation from which the country has suffered, partly through the sale of land, and partly through the war and the high price that timber was fetching during the war, the country to-day is very poor as regards timber. I do not think that there is a real inclination on the part of people who have cut down trees to re-plant, though some estates do so systematically. I never do, and never will, in this House advocate Government interference in things that might properly be carried on by the people themselves, but the Government have shown no hesitation heretofore in telling various sections of the people that they must do their duty by the country, and that if not the Government will come in and do it themselves.

This seems to me to be a branch in which—under the circumstances that have operated for the last ten years, and under the present state of affairs, when the world's supply of timber is getting very much depleted, and the demand for it makes it necessary to go further and further afield to secure the ordinary timber that is required in these countries—the Government ought to insist, as is done in some other countries, that a reasonable area should be planted, and that the deficiency in the forests of the country ought to be made good at an early date. We have heard a good deal here of making Ireland self-supporting, shutting out everything foreign and making or growing everything we can ourselves.

Mr. WILSON

Which you support?

Mr. HEWAT

Not on my support altogether. Deputy Wilson will remember that I have been consistent in disagreeing with protection.

Mr. HOGAN

Compulsion in any form?

Mr. HEWAT

Not compulsion in any form.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

Even in the planting of trees?

Mr. HEWAT

I think that Deputy Wilson cannot accuse me of being inconsistent in that respect. From that point of view, and estimating the amount of timber that we bring from the ends of the earth to build our houses, and estimating the amount of timber that could easily and naturally be grown, much more easily grown than beet or tobacco, and much more naturally in some ways owing to the geography and topography of the country, a policy might reasonably be instituted whereby it would be put up to the people that they should replant, or if not, that the Government should insist that a reasonable area of the country should be devoted to the growth of timber to replace the timber that has been used at home or that has been sold. In suggesting that I have no hesitation in putting forward an argument which does not emanate from me, but which I endorse in this case most heartily, that if you can grow all the timber you want, then grow it.

Mr. WILSON

Deputy Hewat has made my task light, because I am also anxious that more money should be spent on this service. The Minister says that the programme is 2,200 acres a year, and his object is to have a State forest of 200,000 acres. It would take him a hundred years to get anything in the nature of such a forest, and the total sum of all his efforts up to the present, and of those who preceded him, is a State forest of 19,000 acres.

Mr. HOGAN

Since 1920.

Mr. WILSON

You are adding 2,200 acres a year, and every acre added means fresh expense in the preservation and care of the area planted, owing to the necessity for supervision, and if at the same time the Vote is the same grant in aid, with a small addition——

Mr. HOGAN

The Vote is not the same grant in aid.

Mr. WILSON

There has been a slight increase last year out of the grant in aid for unemployment, a haphazard grant which came too late in the season to be of any use.

Mr. HOGAN

I thought the Deputy was speaking of this year.

Mr. WILSON

This year you had £2,000 unexpended. But I contend that the added areas—I am not speaking now in the intoxicating sense— necessitates the employment of extra custodians for those forests, fresh fencing, and so on, and as you increase your area by 2,200 acres per annum, you automatically raise the dead weight of supervision, and you reduce the money you have available for development. I put that seriously, because that is really a fact, and it is the reason why, if it were at all possible inside the limits of our expenditure to increase this Vote, I say that this is a Vote under which the money would be very well spent, and we would get in ten or twelve years some of the benefits of the planting that has been done.

There was some talk of a Forestry Bill being brought in last year. I have been wondering whether it is one of the slaughtered innocents, whether it will ever come to life, whether it is moribund, or suffering from that terrible disease in this country called contagious abortion. The cutting-down of trees without permission and without replanting should be made an offence, and, therefore, this Bill ought to be introduced at as early a date as possible in the interests of the State. I hope the Minister will agree to increase this estimate at least to £60,000. It is now that the money would be useful. There is no use giving it in the fall. If the money could be spared, it would be well spent and would produce benefits which expenditure in other directions does not produce.

Mr. WOLFE

I am very glad to see that it is proposed to have an increase in this grant. I am a great believer in tree-planting. It must be evident to anybody who knows anything about this matter that since the year 1885, the country is becoming more and more denuded of trees. Since the Land Acts began to work, unfortunately, the owners, instead of planting trees, have been cutting them down to a very great extent. That is generally true over the whole country and I hope it will not go on. There is great room for tree-planting over vast areas of the country on ground that would not be useful for any other purpose. County Kildare has been foremost always in the matter of forestry. Since about 1900 the Kildare County Council, of which I was then a member, has been buying woods continuously and planting them, or getting a present of them sometimes, and the Council has now extensive woods in different parts of the county. By now they must be beginning to be profitable, because after about twelve years, through the thinning of woods, there ought to be a certain amount of return. The result is becoming evident in parts of Kildare. Kildare is not a beautiful county. It has not the advantages of Wicklow, with its mountains and so on, but the woods in Kildare have been taken care of to a great extent by their owners. The much-abused ancestors have at least done that much good. They were great tree-planters in years gone by, and, in a good many cases, the result has been of great benefit to the county and to the people.

Some time ago there was a great shortage of timber throughout the world. Great fires in Canada destroyed millions of acres of woods, and had we been ready to meet the demand without denuding the country of trees, we should have made a large amount of money. As it was, there was a great deal of timber sold here, but generally it was timber that should not have been taken away and was not replaced. I hope that some of the money that the Land Commission is providing for improving estates can be used for replacing shelter belts that have been cut down on lands taken over. Apart from the shelter that they afford, trees have a great effect on the drainage of lands. Where a county is well wooded, as a rule, flooding is not so prevalent. That has been proved in France where, owing to the denuding of the forests, they have been troubled very much by the flooding of the Seine, and that has been put down to the want of timber in the upper reaches of the river.

There is a great deal in having good timber throughout the country both from the point of view of beauty and of profit. Tree planting would give a great deal of employment. It would be profitable, not like making roads, which is like pouring water through a sieve, as there is no return for the money. There is a profit from the timber at the end of a certain time, with very little expense in the meantime, except possibly for a caretaker and the careful thinning that is required. Sir Walter Scott made a very true remark about timber. He said that while men sleep, trees grow. There is a good deal in that. If it were only from the point of view of the useful employment it would give, I think the money would be well spent in planting the country. The country will be beautified, particularly by planting the lower parts of some of the hills. I am glad to see the increase in the grant this year, and I hope that there will be a further increase next year, and that we shall see the result of it in the extra employment given and the increased beauty of the country.

Major COOPER

I welcome the advocacy of all those Deputies who have urged a slight increase in this Vote. Particularly, I welcome the disinterested advocacy of Deputy Hewat, because only a business man can know what an unprofitable business it is to plant trees. Coal brings in a dividend in the year. It is quarried and sold and paid for within a year. A bullock brings in its dividend within two years or two years and a half; but if you plant larch it takes thirty years for the trees to come to maturity, and if you plant any trees that grow less quickly, naturally they will take very much longer. It is not at the present moment a business proposition to plant trees. That is possibly why the Government is taking it on. Deputy Wolfe has invoked the Lay of the Last Minstrel, and he has told us that while men sleep, trees grow. While men sleep, trees grow very slowly. A man might sleep his lifetime out and he would see a tree grow to no more than a puny height, certainly not to a marketable height.

Mr. WOLFE

I have seen trees grow more than that in my time anyhow.

Major COOPER

In Kildare growth is abnormal.

Mr. WOLFE

I think I could show the Deputy some trees that are, perhaps, abnormal.

Mr. DAVIN

Christmas trees.

Major COOPER

Undoubtedly both men and trees in Kildare grow to an enormous height, but these natural advantages are not enjoyed by other districts. I do not think, as a matter of fact, setting the joke aside, that Deputy Wolfe would argue that investing money in trees is like investing money in gilt edged securities. You do not get your dividend quite as punctually or as quickly through money invested in forestry as through money invested in normal industrial or banking securities. Obviously you do not. That is why it is necessary for the Government to come in and slightly increase the grant that they gave for forestry operations.

Mr. HEWAT

You cannot sit under the shade of a banking security.

Major COOPER

You cannot; but the banking security will enable you to transfer yourself to a country where there are very shady trees and very pleasant conditions in existence. When I hear talk about the abnormal cutting of trees and timber, I am forced to say that there was such cutting during the war. There was a lot of timber required for trenches, and young ash was needed for aeroplanes. But I do not think there is any market for timber now. If you have a particular type of timber, such as sycamores, from which they could make rollers for use in cotton mills, or something like that, there would be a sale for it; but for the most part it is not easy to sell timber at the moment.

When Deputy Wilson says that no person should be allowed to sell timber without replanting, I agree with that so far as it refers to the people who never planted any timber and who merely acquired timber through purchasing it. Where timber has been grown as a commercial proposition, where every year you cut a certain number of trees and plant a certain area, you should not there make your conditions so rigid. As a matter of fact, the market is in a bad condition now, and you cannot sink any enormous amount in replanting. If you are fortunate enough to sell you do not get a price that would be sufficient to pay you, and that would encourage you to replant. I do not think Deputy Wilson or anybody else so contends. I should like to see in this Estimate, not merely the slight increase indicated for State forestry operations, but something greater in the direction of advances for afforestation purposes. I would sooner see this thing done by the individual, and not by the State. I desire to call attention particularly to the ludicrously low Vote for forestry education. Forestry is a science just as much as any other science. It can probably be best studied in India, where they have enormous State forests. It could be studied also in France and Germany.

Mr. HOGAN

Perhaps the Deputy is overlooking the provision under sub-head (a) I gather the Deputy is thinking of sub-head (e)?

Major COOPER

I am.

Mr. HOGAN

There is a provision under sub-head (a) and a further provision, I think, in the Education Vote in connection with the College of Science.

Major COOPER

I am very glad indeed that there is further provision. It is not at the moment clear to me.

Mr. HOGAN

I am not quite sure of that.

Major COOPER

Anyway, if there is further provision in the Education Vote, I am extremely glad. I do not know that we can learn all that is to be learned about forestry within the limits of this country. An arrangement with the French Government, by which we could send a number of specially qualified students of forestry to France, would be of great advantage. In that country they regard forestry as a business proposition. They have to cut down and re-plant a certain area regularly, and as far as I know, that has never been done here. The Department has had this forestry school for many years, but I have never found anybody who could say: "I studied at the Avondale School." I have never found anybody to put that forward as a qualification. It ought to be the normal process for anybody anxious to develop forestry to be able to obtain a man with this qualification. At present, however, that does not seem to appeal. Perhaps there may be people who have land of their own and who wish to learn and develop forestry. If there are, it is a good thing. At any rate, the school does not seem to have spread its influence sufficiently.

While £100 is really a farcical amount, I am glad that provision is made under other sub-heads. I would urge upon the Minister to see that a real knowledge of this very important subject, a subject which may influence our weather and our climate to a very great degree, is spread among the new owners of land and among the people who are now in a position either to plant or to sell. If they only learn that felling is not entirely profit and that planting is not entirely loss, we shall have gone a great way towards improving the climate and the health of our country.

Mr. McBRIDE

Deputy Cooper began by informing the Dáil that forestry could not be conducted on a commercial footing, and he wound up, or said ultimately, that in France forestry is conducted in a commercial manner, and evidently suggested that we ought to follow the methods adopted in France. Those are the methods I intend to advocate. England has to send her forestry students, the students that they send out to India to take care of the enormous forests there, to France or Germany. They have to pay for that, and they have to give the students an allowance to pay their way. I regret this question of forestry is not approached in a more business-like manner by this Government of ours. It is not approached as it is in France. Up to the present we have been only tinkering with it, and it is time for that tinkering to end. Large areas of this country, so-called mountain lands, have been cleared by the C.D. Board from time to time, and have been split up into small holdings which have been given to tenants. It takes large areas of those lands to support a dozen sheep or a half a dozen cattle and with a great deal of difficulty the land may be made grow potatoes and cabbage. I do not see why 20,000 or 30,000 acres should not be taken and placed under a regular Forestry Department. The Minister for Finance, of course, may object to the expenditure, but you can get the money without putting up the Estimates in any way. You are giving to the farmers this year £600,000 as an agricultural grant. This money, I suggest, could be put to the credit of the Forestry Department, and the whole scheme could be carried out in a regular form. The farmers have kept the country in turmoil now for about fortyfive years.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

They are not finished yet.

Mr. McBRIDE

I think it is time to call a halt. The country wants something else than a continuous cry of bad times for the farmers, bad times for this and bad times for the other, but the farmers seem to prosper and do not give up their farms. I suggest to the Government that instead of distributing this £600,000 among the farmers, it should be put to the credit of a real Forestry Department regularly instituted.

Mr. GOREY

I will not deal with the suggestions made by Deputy McBride. I hope I am not disappointing the other Deputies in that. In dealing with this question, I want to know what is the mind of the Land Commission about it. The policy in this country for a long time has been to plant a certain class of timber of the earliest maturing varieties, but not the most desirable or the most valuable varieties. What we have been producing mostly is pit-wood. Deputy Hewat referred to the necessity of providing suitable materials for building. We are not growing the class of timber here that will make suitable building timber. Neither larch nor deal grown here is suitable. A considerable amount of money is going out of the country annually for building timber, and we have made very little effort to produce that class of timber, if the country can produce it. I think we ought to get away from this, more or less, bad timber, and get on with the growing of building timber. It is possible that the other countries which grow timber will arrive at a position in which they cannot supply building timber, and their supplies may fall off, so that we cannot rely on them. I gathered from the Minister's opening statement that this side of the Department's activities give very little employment for the money spent. I take it that the expenditure will come under a different heading from employment, or am I right in saying that it would be for procuring young plants?

Mr. HOGAN

I do not follow the Deputy.

Mr. GOREY

The Minister's statement was that there was no other kind of activity that gave less employment.

Mr. HOGAN

No. I said, in passing, that there was an idea that forestry is an operation which is specially suitable for giving employment, and I explained that it was not, and that for the amount of money expended in forestry operations only a comparatively small sum went for employment, as compared with the proportion of money spent on other operations which gave employment.

Mr. GOREY

I take it that most of the money has gone in procuring plants.

Mr. HOGAN

Yes, I gave the amount.

Mr. GOREY

To procure young trees?

Mr. HOGAN

I gave the figures under sub-head (c)—Land Acquisition, £6,800; Maintenance Charges, £10,000; Cultural charges in connection with existing plantations, £3,000; and Planting and Nursery Work, £4,200.

Mr. GOREY

I wanted to see how much these young plants cost, and how much we are spending, in order that we might become our own nursery men.

Mr. HOGAN

Last year there were about 180 men employed all the year round, and 150 temporary men employed in the planting season for the whole service. That was only rendered possible by allocating £7,000 from relief grants to forestry.

Mr. GOREY

My idea was that to our colleges or other institutions where labour is partly occupied—stone-breaking, I understand, is a method of employment in some prisons—nurseries should be attached whereby you could procure a large annual output of young trees. Might not that be profitable?

Mr. HOGAN

Attached to what?

Mr. GOREY

Attached to the Forestry Branch.

Mr. HOGAN

I have already stated that 9,957 acres have been used in one way or another for young plants and nurseries.

Mr. GOREY

Am I to take it that you are maintaining your own nurseries?

Mr. HOGAN

Of course.

Mr. GOREY

Very good. I understand that grants were made to the county councils to try and get on with the nursery business. I do not know what the results are or whether they have proved satisfactory. I would stress the point of getting a better class of timber which will be more useful than the timber we have. Some Deputy said that nobody should be allowed to cut down timber. Anyone with any sense knows that when timber has reached a certain stage of usefulness and a certain stage of ornamentation it would be good policy to cut it down, for it becomes useless as well as unsightly after that. Even oak must at one time come down. We have also too much hedge timber in the country. I would impress on the Government the advisability of planting a more valuable kind of timber which will be useful for building and which may be necessary in the future.

Mr. BAXTER

Last year on this Vote I expressed the hope that more would be done by the Government in this direction in the future. The other day, on another Estimate, I made the point which Deputy Cooper has made, and I would like further information as to what would be the benefit to the climate if a considerable portion of the country had forestry operations carried out upon it. There is a strong concensus of opinion that the climate could be altered to some extent beneficially by operations like those. If it is possible that that could be achieved through spending money under this head it should not be lost sight of as it is a national necessity at present. I think also that it is not right that this Vote should be regarded from the point of view of the amount of employment to be given. I think it would be entirely inaccurate to be guided by that point of view. There are some other aspects of this problem to be considered. From the point of view of the rural dweller I certainly think we must admit that if there is to be any sort of technical training in the country amongst the rural population, the growing of timber is absolutely essential towards that end. If you have to get a person like a handy man in the country you will find that he has become a handy man because he has had opportunity of working on cheap timber available around his home. There is no doubt that there are possibilities for our people to get a sort of technical training in the manufacture of timber if more timber were available and if it were cheaper and more easily procured. That has to be considered and it is a point that should not be lost sight of. We have to consider what we can do to make more timber available for ordinary use, even around the farmsteads.

I believe it is a national necessity that reafforestation should be proceeded with on a very much greater scale than has been done up to the present. I do not know where any of the areas are that this work is being carried out on, whether they are on the western seaboard or on other areas in the country. As Deputy McBride has said, there are very many areas which are available for afforestation that could not otherwise be made an economic asset at all. The allocation of these areas is something I want to hear more about. I would like to know what is the policy in regard to the problem of attempting reafforestation on the western seaboard. Deputy O'Connell says trees would not grow. I have been trying to collect some information from people who have had some experience on this matter to see how far it is possible to carry out the work of reafforestation in congested areas. I think that should be a matter of policy under this Vote for the Government. I think that, apart from what the State might do towards planting on a large scale areas in the possession of the State itself, perhaps the problem might be tackled in another way. That would certainly bring considerable benefits from the point of view of the number of trees cut down and the improvement in the appearance of the country and from the point of view of making more timber available at every farmstead in the country.

A few years ago, under the auspices of the old Sinn Fein organisation, a National Arbour Day was proclaimed. In my district I was responsible for getting 1,000 trees put down. I think if consideration were given to this by the Government and a National Arbour Day proclaimed it would put a responsibility on everyone, every individual in the State, to go out on that day and do a certain amount of work in this direction and try to stir up a certain amount of enthusiasm to get our people to recognise the national necessity of reafforestation. In that way I believe very much could be done. As a matter of fact a great deal will be done and thousands of trees more will be put down by this means than certainly will be got by the method pursued by the State at present. I do not say that, apart from that, the Minister should not take action on a much wider scale than he has so far. It is not right to suggest that because the return is not immediate and the employment small, the expenditure under this heading will not justify itself. It will improve to some extent and regulate the climate of the country probably and that will have something to do with the improvement of the health of the people generally year after year. It will make an improvement in the conditions and the appearance of the country and make an asset to the State of the territories that have been planted by them and repay the State a hundred fold.

Mr. SEARS

I would like to support the plea made for a bolder policy on the part of the Government with regard to forestry. I would like to see a policy almost on the dimensions of the Shannon scheme with regard to it but I do not think that we will ever reach success even if we adopt the compulsory growing policy advocated by Deputy Wilson, or the harsh measures of interference with private property urged by Deputy Hewat. The Minister for Agriculture in looking over the farms of the Free State in one of his later speeches asked us to picture the farms of Ireland as generally ranging in size from 20 or 40 to 50 acres. I am accustomed to looking at farms one-half, one-third, or one-fourth that size. I think we will never reach anything in the way of afforestation on these small farms. Deputy Wolfe referred to the beneficial effects that would follow from having belts of timber. I agree with him on that but you can never have belts of timber if you look to the small farmer to start putting down a tree here and there. I think what he said in regard to the work done by the Kildare County Council, to my mind suggests a better line of working. The private individual, the farmer, in these hard times cannot look for much profit from a timber crop. Why should not the farmer regard his timber as a crop like any other crop? He looks to it for profit and a farmer cannot wait for thirty or forty years to get a profit out of this crop.

It is, I suggest, a matter more for the County Councils or the State. It is the business of the State. For every acre of forestry in Ireland, on the continent you get 18, 20, and 40 acres. Ireland is the barest country in the world in the matter of timber. That is a disgraceful position to be in, considering that our country was, in the past, the best country in the world for timber. When the British were building their Houses of Parliament and wanted the best timber in the world for the roof they got Irish oak and I am sure Ireland can grow as good oak to-day as it did in the past. I hope we have not lost faith in Irish oak as we have in Irish wheat. I suggest to the Minister that he should not look to the small farmer or to the larger farmer for this, not that I am opposed to the farmer planting trees. I would like to see him planting as much as possible but you can never do anything on these lines. I would support Deputy McBride's statement that there are stretches of land for miles along the Western seaboard that cannot grow any crop. The Department of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture has a lot of them in its possession and can get get more of them. I would like to see those hills and valleys clothed with timber. The Deputy need not be afraid that the timber will not grow. If he goes to the estates of the Marquis of Sligo or to the estate at Cong he will see as fine timber as any in the world growing there.

Mr. CONLAN

There is one matter that the Department should be congratulated on. It may seem a small thing. That is the display of plants at the recent Spring Show.

I think it was the most interesting feature of the show. It showed the different species of trees, and also the soil to which these trees were suited. I am sure that a great many people got very valuable information from these exhibits. I would like to ask the Minister on what system grants are made to county councils or to committees of agriculture in connection with county councils. Deputy Wolfe has alluded to the work done by the Kildare County Council. They were very favourably situated, because, through the generosity of the trustees of the Duke of Leinster, they got a number of woods throughout the county made over to them practically free. I believe in one or two instances there was a small charge, but, on the whole, they got them made over practically free of charge. They have worked very well since, and I think they are very well deserving of whatever grants are available for them. They have also set up a nursery, and it is open to any landowner in the county who desires to plant a half of an acre of trees to get them free of charge. That is a great encouragement. The State at present is not in a position to deal with a large area of State lands. There is, however, one particularly large tract of land in Deputy Wilson's constituency which has been used as an artillery range. Last year I asked the President what use was to be made of that tract of land, and he said it would be kept over for a while until they would get some munitions out of the way. Whether that has been done or not, I do not know.

As to the class of trees to be planted, that is a question that should be studied very closely. Deputy Gorey has alluded to that, and said that we should produce a useful class of trees that would produce wood suitable for building purposes. That would be very important. In the planting of larch there should be discrimination. It should be native larch instead of Japanese larch, which is not so valuable. These things, I am sure, have been studied by the Forestry Department. I think we are all agreed that tree-planting is the most valuable work in which we can be engaged. Whether it would be a success in exposed areas bordering on the sea is an open question. But there is a good deal of mountain land which is not good for grazing, and it might be utilised for this purpose.

Mr. McBRIDE

Deputy Baxter and Deputy Conlan are exercised as to the suitability of the soil, or climate of Ireland, or of the seaboard of Ireland, in so far as the growing of timber is concerned. I would advise both these Deputies to study the history of similar tracts of land in France. There they had a country with a cold sub-soil. It was exposed to the Atlantic gales. It was covered with water in the winter and with sand in the summer. The people went about there originally on stilts. At present the whole department is covered with forests. There are about 500 saw-mills, and at the moment I cannot say how many villages are now in that department. What was done there is an example that ought to be followed in the mountainous parts of our country. You cannot have saleable larch in 10 years.

Mr. HOGAN

I am sorry Deputy Hewat has left the House, because I wanted to congratulate him on his conversion to compulsion. I remember he urged here some months ago that there should be no compulsion on the man who kept a bad bull or who sold bad butter. He is now out for compulsion in the matter of the growing of trees. I admit that there cannot be much done for a long time in this matter of reafforestation. If possible we ought to arrange for the co-operation of the people in the matter of forestry; but when you come to consider how you could most usefully co-operate your difficulties begin. It is not easy to compel people to plant trees. You might pass an Act of Parliament to that effect, but when you come to the administration of it you would find difficulties. There are very great difficulties now in either compelling people to plant trees, or refusing them permission to cut trees. Some Deputies pointed out that apart from any other reason, when trees come to maturity they should be cut. Deputy Gorey mentioned that there is too much hedge timber in the country. There are a hundred and one good reasons for cutting down trees, and there might be a thousand and one bad reasons for cutting them. It would be costly and difficult to administer an Act of Parliament for the purpose of preventing people cutting down trees, and in many cases it would lead to litigation. I do not see how you can go along the line of compulsion in this regard. I disagree with Deputy Hewat in that matter. You may have compulsion in other matters, but I do not think you can have it along the line of forestry. Deputy Baxter suggested something in the nature of an arbor day. It is a suggestion worth consideration, but it is a question as to whether anything in the nature of an arbor day would be successful for some years. You must have a change from the point of view that trees ought to be cut down regardless of any future considerations, and just because it suits to cut them down at the moment. Deputy Cooper put it rather well when he said that the cutting down of trees is not always profit, and the planting of trees not always loss. You have to take long views of forestry. It is necessary to have a real change in the point of view of landholders generally before you can have a successful arbor day; but it is certainly well worth while keeping it in mind, so as to be able to take advantage of the time when it does arrive. It may have arrived already, but I have my doubts. I agree with Deputies with regard to the development in the line of encouraging county councils to do the sort of work that is being done in Kildare, and that is more likely to lead to results. I agree also that this is a small sum to devote for forestry, and that forestry will have ultimately to be tackled in a big way, and when I say ultimately, I hope it does not mean too long. I think there is little in the proposition that forestry would improve the climate. I would suggest to Deputy Baxter that he has to consider exactly what area of forestry he means. There are plenty of shelter belts, and these are very important for the farmers who do it judiciously. Many farmers who treat their land well suffer considerable loss of stock because they have not made provision for shelters in their farms. I take it, however, that that is not what is in the Deputy's mind. He is thinking of big areas of forestry which would change the climate. I think the theory the Deputy put up has not been proved. In any case, how long would it take? Deputy Baxter's great, great grandchildren would probably be debating the question as to whether 350,000 or 400,000 acres of timber——

Mr. GOREY

How long would it take to develop Deputy Sears' oaks?

Mr. HOGAN

It would take a long time to develop anything up to 400,000 or 500,000 acres of timber, and that would be really lost in a country like this. It would take a couple of million acres scheduled as barren mountain wastes, and that, I think, is what he has in his mind. I doubt very much if timber to that extent would influence the climate, but in any event it is a proposition that could not mature for a great number of years. On the other hand, I agree that forestry has not got the attention it would get under ordinary circumstances. More urgent matters have to take precedence. It is a case of taking first things first. If there were fewer abnormal circumstances, I agree that forestry would get more attention. I am not satisfied that the Vote represents what is adequate to the needs of the situation, but I say it is the best that could be done in the circumstances, and I go no further than that.

Vote put and agreed to.