IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - TEACHERS SUPERANNUATION BILL, 1928—COMMITTEE STAGE.
(1) The Minister for Education may, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, prepare in relation to any particular class or classes of teachers a scheme (in this Act referred to as a superannuation scheme) with the object of providing pensions and gratuities for the class or classes of teacher to whom such scheme applies and (subject to confirmation thereof under this Act) carry such scheme into execution.
(2) Different superannuation schemes may be prepared and (subject as aforesaid) be carried into execution by the Minister for Education in relation to different classes of teachers.
I move:—
Before Section 1 to insert a new section as follows:—
In this Act the word "teacher" includes a person who was a secondary teacher on the 1st day of January, 1927, and ceased to be such teacher after that date and before the passing of this Act, and also includes a person who was formerly a teacher and while he was a teacher was appointed to a pensionable post in the Civil Service of Saorstát Eireann and at the passing of this Act holds the same or a similar post in the said Civil Service."—Aire Oideachas.
Deputies will remember that on the Second Reading I made it quite clear that the intention was that the enabling powers of the Bill would extend, for instance, to people in the position of national teachers who became national school inspectors, and I think I also indicated that it was proposed in the scheme of pensions for secondary teachers that those should be included who, with the consent of the Minister of Education, had resigned since January, 1927. That was to carry out the promise that any delay in introducing the Bill would not prejudice individuals in that particular position. It struck me afterwards that there was just a danger that a very strict interpretation of the Bill might prevent any scheme under this Bill from dealing with these particular cases. It is to set any doubts of that kind at rest that I now propose the amendment.
The Minister said that this Bill will cover the case of the national teacher who became an inspector. I take it that it will also cover the case of the secondary teacher who became an inspector?
I think it does cover that case also, and I think the Deputy will see that if he looks at the proposed amendment to Section 3. I think no distinction is made there. This definition is necessary, and it must be read in connection with the proposed Section 3 of the Bill. It all depends on the particular scheme that it is proposed to introduce.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move amendment 2:—
In sub-section (1), line 15, to insert after the word "for" the words "or in respect of".
That is to secure that there will be no difficulty in consequence of a legal definition. It is intended to secure that if, for instance, there was a question of returning the pension in the case of the death of a teacher the personal representatives unquestionably would get the benefit.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 1, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 2.
(1) A superannuation scheme may contain provisions in relation to all or any of the following matters, that is to say:—
(a) the setting up of a pension fund for the purposes of such scheme and the administration of such fund;
(b) the payment into such fund by teachers to whom such scheme applies of such contributions as may be prescribed by such scheme;
(c) the payment into such fund of such moneys as may be provided by the Oireachtas for the purposes of such scheme;
(d) the payment out of such fund to teachers to whom such scheme applies of pensions and gratuities at such rates in such manner and on such conditions as may be prescribed by such scheme.
I move amendment 3:—
In sub-section (1), paragraph (d), line 31, to insert before the word "teachers" the words "or in respect of".
This is merely carrying out the same idea in respect of this section.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment 4:—
In sub-section (1), paragraph (d), line 33, after the word "conditions" to insert the words "and restrictions (including restrictions on alienation)."
In the particular scheme, which is the only one I am contemplating for the moment, that is the secondary teachers' pension scheme, it is felt desirable that there should be no restriction on alienation, that it should be made personal to the man.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment 5:—
At the end of the section to add a new sub-section as follows:—
"(4) Where a superannuation scheme is expressed to apply to any class of teachers to whom the National School Teachers (Ireland) Act, 1879, applies, such scheme may be in addition to or in substitution for the provisions of the said Act as amended by the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1920, relating to such class of teachers and may revoke or amend such provisions accordingly."
In the Superannuation Act of 1879, to which reference is made here, there is power in the Ministers for Education and Finance to make modifications in the actual pensions scheme. But I doubt if there is power to bring in any new class into that particular scheme. In case at any future date it may be found advisable to do so, it might be impossible to add to that particular scheme, for instance, the teachers in convent schools, as the interpretation we have got of the Act of 1879 is that it applies only to one class of teachers. Without an amendment of this kind the position, under the Act of 1879, might be jeopardised, or the pension scheme in general. It might be impossible to make provision of the kind I mention, in case, at a future date, it is found desirable to make such a change.
Amendment agreed to.
On the section itself, I want to draw the Minister's attention in sub-section (d) to the words "to teachers to whom such scheme applies" and to ask if he will consider the advisability or possibility of taking these words out. I do not think their absence would affect the meaning of the section, but they might have a very deleterious, restrictive effect on the nature of the scheme which will at a future date come before us. For example, if they remain in the Bill, they will prevent the possibility of any scheme containing anything like a deferred pay consideration, because payment must be made to teachers. It is quite possible that in a pension scheme some portion of the pension may be regarded as deferred pay to be paid as a sum to the widow of a teacher if he died at an early age. I think these words would prevent the possibility of that. I suggest that they have no particular force as they stand, because the section will still give power for payment of pensions and gratuities, but that they might have a rather serious restrictive effect, and I ask the Minister to consider before the Report Stage the advisability of removing the words.
How far does the amendment already introduced meet the Deputy's point?
I do not think it does, as this definitely says "payment to teachers."
Will the Deputy take in amendment 3, which has just been passed?
Does the Minister think it will cover this?
In moving the amendment I think that is what I tried to explain. It did strike us, looking over the scheme we had in mind, that under the Bill as it stood if a teacher died there did not seem to be power to pay a gratuity to the widow. It was in order to meet a case like that the words "or in respect of" were introduced.
Does the Minister think the point is fully met by these words?
Section 2, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 3.
A superannuation scheme may in the case of a person to whom such scheme applies appointed to a post in the Civil Service of Saorstát Eireann make special provision for the award of a pension to such teacher in respect of his service as a teacher, and for the suspension of the payment of such pension during such time as such person continues to be employed in the Civil Service of Saorstát Eireann.
I move amendment 6:—
To delete all words after the word "may," line 1, to the end of the section and substitute the words:—
"In regard to persons to whom such scheme applies appointed to pensionable posts in the Civil Service of Saorstát Eireann, make special provision for the award of pensions to some or all such persons in respect of their service as teachers and may provide for the assessment and payment of any such pension being postponed until the person to whom it is awarded leaves the said Civil Service."
This amendment is one which is somewhat more in favour of the teacher. It is really to secure that it would not be immediately necessary, say, in the case of a national teacher becoming an inspector, to compute what his pension service as a national teacher amounted to, and take that into account as suggested by the section, as it stands, but that we should wait until his final retirement from the Civil Service. For instance, a national teacher might come in at the age of 25, and he might afterwards have forty years' service as a civil servant, and it might be better for him to have his ultimate pension paid on the forty years instead of the broken type of computation that now exists. The suggestion is that even the computing of the actual pension due to him for his services as a national teacher could wait over until the final pension is being decided.
The original section makes special provision for the award of a pension to a teacher who has subsequently become a civil servant, an inspector, for example, in respect of his services as a teacher, and for the suspension of the payment of a pension while he occupied that post. I notice in the amendment that not alone is the award of the pension for which special provision is to be made postponed, but the actual assessment is to be postponed until the person leaves the Civil Service. I think that that weakens considerably the position of persons affected, and that the Minister ought to make it clear to us now why it is that assessments should not be made at the time on their previous service.
The whole thing would be simplified if the Minister would see his way to accept these persons as having been civil servants during the whole period of their appointment. After their appointment and as soon as they became teachers they were under the control of the Ministry just as much as any other civil servant and they were under regulations. The fact that civil servants have been transferred to other posts should not militate against them and there should not be any differentiation because of that transfer. If a junior clerk in the Civil Service is appointed to a higher position there is no question of postponing assessment or the payment of pension. In this case there is a postponement and we do not know upon what basis the pension will be awarded and what the term "special provision" means, but payment of pension is to be suspended. I do not think the amount involved is very large. Teachers working for a very long time would, I think in most favourable circumstances, only get a small annual amount. Does the fact that the pension for the period during which they were teachers must not be paid while they are occupying civil service positions mean that no allowance would be made in respect of bonus and gratutities? Will that amount not be taken into consideration? If it is not I think an unfair discrimination is made by arbitrarily dividing the particular class who have good grounds for saying they were civil servants all the time into two periods—one when they were civil servants and another when they were not. In the North of Ireland the whole period of the teacher's service is accepted as reckonable for pensions. If the Minister would intimate to us now that the whole period of the teaching service of these inspectors will be taken into consideration and make it clear how the assessment will be made he would avoid a good deal of trouble later on. I have no doubt if there is any attempt at discrimination or evading the question of giving the full benefit of their teaching it will have to be gone into again when the regulations come up for consideration.
I would like to make it clear that I do not at all accept the position that any teacher is a civil servant. I want to be quite clear on that, and anything that would seem to involve that would run counter to our whole policy, and even to the method in which we propose to deal with the matter. The teacher is not a civil servant. His whole pension scheme rests on a different basis from the Civil Service Pension Scheme. The teacher pays into a fund. We want to see that he will get credit in assessing his pension so far as his service as a teacher is concerned, that there will be computation, and I think it is better at the end than at the beginning, because, as I say, it may be necessary to see what number of years service he has as a civil servant. So far as the section as it stands is concerned, to my mind our proposed amendment is more favourable to the teacher. Supposing a person has a number of years service, the teaching portion of the pension would be assessed up to a point that he would reasonably have reached when he ceased to be a teacher. It will be better from his own point of view that the assessment should be postponed because he may have his full forty years in the Civil Service, and, therefore, his assessment would have to be according to the number of years he was in the Service.
May I take it that when the assessment comes to be made full allowance will be made for the number of years in respect of which the inspector has been teaching?
Yes, but he is not getting an allowance as a civil servant on those years. I want to make that quite clear.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Section 3, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 4.
This section is necessary in order to cover the expenses of administration and any increased expenditure on the part of the State that may be necessary in the way of contributions towards the different schemes that may be set up under this Bill.
Section 4 agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
I move amendment 7:—
Before Section 6 to insert a new section as follows:—
All expenses incurred in carrying this Act into execution shall, to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.
Amendment agreed to.
New section ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Section 6 agreed to.
LONG TITLE.
An Act to make provision for the formulating and carrying out of Schemes for the provision of Pensions and Gratuities to Teachers.
I move amendment 8:—
"In page 1, line 9, to delete the words ‘to teachers' and substitute the words ‘for or in respect of teachers and certain former teachers'."
This amendment is consequential on amendments already passed.
Amendment agreed to.
Long Title, as amended, agreed to.
Bill ordered to be reported.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Bill reported with amendments.
FINAL STAGES PASSED.
It is, of course, a matter for the House, but I should be glad if the remaining stages of the Bill could be taken now if there is no objection, then I should try and get it through the Seanad as quickly as possible. I move that the Bill be received for final consideration and do now pass.
Question put and agreed to.
