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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Apr 1929

Vol. 29 No. 2

Public Business. - Vote No. 43—National Health Insurance.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £220,928 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Choimisiúin Arachais agus chun Ilsíntiúisí agus Ildeontaisí mar gheall ar chostas Sochar agus Costaisí Riaracháin fé sna hAchtanna um Arachas Sláinte Náisiúnta, 1911 go 1927 (maraon le Deontaisí áirithe i gCabhair).

That a sum not exceeding £220,928 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1930, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Insurance Commission and for sundry Contributions and Grants in respect of the cost of Benefits and Expenses of Administration under the National Health Insurance Acts, 1911 to 1927 (including certain Grants-in-Aid).

This Estimate does not call for any comment. Since the discussion on last year's Estimate, the report on the administration of National Health Insurance for all Ireland from the 1st April, 1921, to the 31st March, 1922, and for Saorstát Eireann from the 1st April, 1922, to the 31st March, 1928, has been published. Again I want to say that legislation will be introduced arising out of the report of the National Health Insurance Commission, and I mentioned, when introducing the Estimate for Local Government, that there is at present with the draftsman proposed legislation in a draft form dealing with such recommendations of that report as the Executive Council approve of.

I noticed that in this Estimate the item for salaries, wages and allowances has been reduced. If I remember aright, there was considerable discussion on the cost of administration of this Department last year. I, and others, called attention to the fact that it seemed unnecessary to have three Commissioners, and, if I recollect aright, I think the Minister agreed that three such highly paid officials were not necessary for the work of the Department. I take it from the Estimate here that no means have been found during the year of reducing the cost so far as the Commissioners are concerned. Of course, it is well to see that the Estimate under sub-head A— Salaries, Wages and Allowances— has been reduced even by £2,000. That is something to the good. National Health Insurance is in itself an excellent thing, but considering how sparsely a great part of our country is populated, it is bound to result in very high overhead charges in this country compared with neighbouring countries that are highly industrialised, so that everything we can do to reduce overhead charges should be done. If anything could be done to find other work to fit the qualifications of perhaps two of the Commissioners in other Departments, I think it should be done. I do not think there is any difference of opinion that in so far as the three heads of the Department are concerned, at least one, and perhaps two, could be done without.

Time has not, I am sure, yet been found by the Minister to examine the report that has been issued dealing with the National Health Insurance in the Free State but I would like to know if he has any idea, having given the examination that he thinks is necessary to the recommendations contained in the Report of the Commission, when legislation, if such were decided upon, will be introduced. I think many Deputies on these benches agree that a radical reorganisation not alone of National Health Insurance but National Health Insurance in connection with public health in general, is a thing that should be tackled as soon as possible. If the Minister could tell us if there was any prospect of legislation at an early date for the purpose of re-organising National Health Insurance and possibly co-ordinating it with public health services generally, we would be glad.

There is just one other point. Looking over the Estimate, one sees that there are 10 inspectors with salaries totalling £5,906 and bonus and 47 assistant inspectors with salaries totalling £11,400 and bonus, provided for. That seems to be a very big number of inspectors. Is the Minister satisfied, I wonder, that 10 inspectors and 47 assistant inspectors, 57 inspectors altogether, are absolutely indispensable in connection with National Health work? It seems an extraordinary number, more than two for every county in the Free State. It would look as if some of that work at any rate might be passed on to others who, in my opinion, have less to do and who could do that work perhaps as efficiently. Another point that has occurred to me is in connection with actuarial work. I see there is contained in the Estimate a sum of £600 for the payment of an actuary. That money is being paid to an English actuary. Is there not a citizen of the Free State to whom that position could be offered? Could not a competent actuary be found in the Free State to do that work? It is a small sum, £600 for this year, but £1,100 was paid last year. It seems strange that we have to go to England to find an actuary to do that work for the Insurance Commission. Of course we know that it is highly specialised work. I believe that the two or three insurance companies that do exist here in the Free State have, so far as I know, to employ British actuaries. Whether the reason is that there is no Irish actuary available I do not know. If there be no Irish actuary available there is nothing else to do, but if there is such a professional man qualified in the Free State—I imagine amongst chartered accountants there should be one qualified as an actuary—he should get an opportunity to do that work.

Another point to which I would wish to refer arises under sub-head (F) (1)—Medical and Sanatorium Benefits. There is an estimate for this year of £36,150. On looking over the last volume of the Appropriation Accounts for the year 1927-28, I see that in that year all that was spent was £27,000, although a sum of £37,500 was estimated for. I would be glad if the Minister would tell us whether or not this amount is likely to be overestimated to the same extent as was the Estimate for the year 1927-28.

I would like to say a few words, before the Minister replies, with regard to the benefits given to members of societies. When the Act is working so smoothly, I am anxious that the Minister should include in it some provision to give mortality benefit to dependents of members of societies.

That is a question of legislation. It does not arise on the Estimates.

I quite agree; but if you, A Chinn Comhairle, would allow me for a second, I would like to point out that some of the societies working the Act since 1912 deem it a great hardship on people who are members of the different societies since the inauguration of the Act.

Some would die without receiving any benefits whatever from their societies. When they would pass away it would be of benefit to those who would be liable for their burial and they would get some benefit which would cover the cost of burial. That is all, and I think it would be essential for the smooth working of the Act.

I sympathise very much with the opinion expressed by Deputy O'Kelly in regard to the Commissioner position and the inspectorial position. The Commissioner position has been under my consideration for some time past, and I have not yet been able to decide what should be done, but I think a change is possible there, and steps will be taken to bring about such change as soon as possible. With regard to the inspectorate, I cannot say that I am satisfied such a number of inspectors is necessary. It has to be borne in mind that whilst doing inspectorial work in connection with national health insurance they also do work in connection with unemployment insurance. However, that is a matter that will have, and is even at present having, careful review to see what reduction can be made in the overhead costs of the service. The position with regard to the actuary is that we use the same actuary as does the actuarial work in connection with the National Health Insurance in Great Britain, for the reason that the two services were once parts of the one service. A very intricate piece of disentangling had to be done with regard to the National Health Insurance scheme for Ireland as a whole and Great Britain, and again disentangling as between the Saorstát part of the scheme and the Six Counties, so that a very intricate piece of work, lasting over a certain number of years, arose out of the changes which took place here. The position, perhaps now that these matters have been disentangled, is that if there is an actuary that the Commissioners can be satisfied can do the work the desire would be, I am sure, to take a competent Saorstát citizen and give this work to him, but, as the Deputy realises, the work is very intricate, the amount of money is small, and the consequences that would arise out of poor actuarial work in connection with this scheme might easily be very serious.

With regard to Deputy Carey, as I say, the matter raised by him is a matter that can have a discussion when the legislation that I spoke about is before the Oireachtas. In reply to Deputy Kelly, I would say that the report has been examined, as far as I am concerned, and that actually the Bill is drafted, in so far as it can be drafted with the assistance of the Department of Local Government and the Commissioners of the National Health Insurance. It is with the Parliamentary draftsmen for polishing up before presentation to the Oireachtas. I would like to be in a position to present a Bill to the Oireachtas before the summer. It is possible that I will. A considerable amount of legislation requires to be dealt with in the Department of Local Government, the milk report, the traffic report, and the National Health Insurance. I would be glad to take such measures as are in an advanced state of preparation and put them before the Oireachtas at the earliest possible moment. The state in which this piece of prepared work is, is such as would encourage the hope that I would be able to put it before the Oireachtas before the summer.

Vote put and agreed to.
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