Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 May 1929

Vol. 29 No. 17

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 63.—Wireless Broadcasting.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £17,510 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun na dTuarastal agus na gCostaisí eile a bhaineann le Fóirleatha Nea-Shrangach.

That a sum not exceeding £17,510 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Salaries and other expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Heffernan)

The full amount of the Vote for the Broadcasting Service for the current financial year is £26,510, which shows a reduction of £845 on the Vote for last year. The receipts from licence fees amounted to £13,382 and from the import tax on wireless apparatus to £27,500 and from miscellaneous receipts £83, making gross revenue of £39,965 or, after deduction of the cost of collection, net receipts of approximately £35,969. Total expenditure amounted approximately to £26,811, so that on the year's working there was an estimated gross surplus of £9,158. Of this about £2,500 must be regarded as a set-off on a commercial account basis against interest on capital and provision for depreciation, leaving net estimated surplus of £6,658. All these figures are subject to such minor alterations as may be necessary when the various accounts have been closed. The number of licences issued during the year was 26,000, or about 9 per 1,000 of the population, showing an increase of 2,000 over the previous year. Increase of licence revenue is dependent for the most part upon development of the service, but the rate of increase is not up to expectations and if receipts from licences only were credited to broadcasting the service would be run at a considerable loss. Full credit has been taken in the Financial Statement for the revenue from the Customs tax. The return from this tax last year was more than had been anticipated, mainly because of large sales resulting from the introduction of new types of receiving apparatus. The revenue from the Customs tax is not likely, however, to be maintained at so high a figure proportionately to the licence revenue, and it is probable that in future years revenue will keep step more or less with expenditure.

The receipts for the current year are estimated at £15,000 from licences and £21,000 from import tax, making gross receipts of £36,000, which, it is anticipated, would be balanced by total expenditure. As regards development of the service, the position is that this Department has decided that the best means of giving a satisfactory service throughout the Free State— i.e., a service which would afford reception on simple sets throughout the greater part of the country— would be by the erection of a central high power station. Proposals accordingly have been prepared and submitted to the Minister for Finance for consideration. The problem of the distribution of wave-lengths to European stations has been considered by several International Conferences during the past year. The International Radio Union, which is a voluntary association of European broadcasting organisations and of which this Administration has membership. evolved after prolonged investigation a plan of redistribution of wave-lengths called the Brussels Plan and which was put into effect in January last. Under this plan the Saorstát was allowed two exclusive wave lengths—411 metres for Dublin Station and 222 metres for Cork Station. This plan was considered by an official Conference of Governments held at Prague a few weeks ago, and it has, so far as we are concerned, subject to a few minor alterations, been accepted. This revised Brussels Plan, which will come into effect in June, gives a wave-length of 413 metres to Dublin and 225 metres to Cork. It must be understood that on account of the overcrowding of broadcasting stations in Europe there can be no free choice of wave-length. The distribution must be fairly made between countries having regard to all the circumstances in each case. The Saorstát claimed and secured two exclusive wave-lengths, and from the technical point of view these are quite satisfactory.

The range of the Dublin Station is longer on the new wave-length than on the old one, giving the same reception conditions, and any difficulties in reception experienced by individual listeners within normal range are probably due entirely to the design of the set in use or to the conditions under which it is operated. The wave-length of the Cork Station, though rather low in the wave-band, is technically quite efficient although the range is not so great as the Dublin Station. Moreover, as the design of some sets does not permit of tuning to the low wave-length, some slight and inexpensive alterations may be necessary in some cases in order to secure the best results. The Department cannot accept general responsibility for satisfactory reception and cannot undertake to investigate every complaint. Several test examinations have, however, been made and improvement has been effected in all except a few cases in which the difficulties were clearly due to unsuitable apparatus. The Department is prepared to investigate wherever the complaints indicate general difficulty in reception in any district in which, from a technical point of view, the reception should be satisfactory, but it cannot investigate isolated complaints. In cases in which difficulty is due to the apparatus, manufacturers and wireless traders are, as a rule, willing to assist listeners. The new studios in the General Post Office building were opened some months ago and the transfer from the old studio was carried out without any interruption of programmes. There are three studios, one very large, suitable for full orchestras and other combinations, one for general purposes and one for talks. They are equipped in the most up-to-date way and the transmissions from them show great improvement as compared with those from the old studio. In regard to programmes, there has been an all-round improvement in the standard during the year. The musical programmes were more ambitious than in previous years.

A full Symphony Orchestra has been organised by the Musical Director and concerts given by it have been highly praised. The support of the concerts given in public has been disappointing, but it is hoped nevertheless to continue them next season. The very fine concerts of the Dublin Philharmonic Society and of the Waterford Musical Society have been broadcast, and there have also been very successful relays of concerts from Sligo, Galway and other provincial centres. The Dublin Station Opera Company produced ten operas during the year. A special event was the very successful broadcast of a complete opera from the Gaiety Theatre, but it is a matter for regret that difficulties in regard to performing rights prevent more frequent broadcasts of a similar kind. Several of the symphony concerts given from the B.B.C. stations have also been broadcast. The Irish part of the programme has been given suitable prominence, and an event of special interest was the organisation through the Radio Union of an International Irish Programme Night on the 20th March when most of the European stations put on special Irish programmes including a short talk on Ireland. Many broadcasts of running commentaries on football and hurling events were given, and these continue to be very popular.

Considerable advance has been made in the production of radio plays. A number of repertory companies have been formed and many first-class plays and sketches have been given. Authors and producers are gradually accommodating their work to the special requirements of broadcasting, so that better results are being obtained and the listening public are showing an increasing interest in this part of the radio programmes. The scope and quality of variety programmes have also much improved. Dublin artistes are taking up this class of work more extensively and are proving very successful in arranging and producing revues, sketches and similar turns. The broadcasting of talks is a very vexed one. There is little doubt that the majority of listeners consider broadcasting only as a source of entertainment, but it is incumbent on any broadcasting organisation, particularly one under State control, to make use of the resources of broadcasting for educational and cultural purposes. For that reason well-selected lectures on subjects of serious interest must form an important part of the programmes. A fairly wide ground was covered by the Talks given in the past year, but it is proposed to give the matter special attention in the future with a view to the arrangement of a series of Talks by recognised authorities on various subjects.

The problems of programme construction are very difficult. It must be the aim of the directors to maintain a balance between the various classes of items forming the programme which shall reflect as nearly as possible the balance of public taste. Generally speaking, individual preferences about cancel out, but it is a peculiarity of criticism that persons who dislike a particular class of item have an impression that that kind of item predominates in the programmes, so that people will write complaining that programmes are overloaded with talks, or with classical music, or with light music or with any other item, whereas examination shows that these items are fairly balanced. Moreover, critics when expressing their individual views always appear to believe that they are speaking for the majority of listeners. Letters received by the directors praising programmes are far more numerous than letters of criticism, but unfortunately people rarely write to the newspapers except to express a grievance of some kind, whereas the many who are pleased seldom take the trouble to say so. Considering the limitations in resources and material, the programmes from the Dublin Station may justly claim to bear favourable comparison generally with the programmes from stations in other countries. Finally, the working of the Broadcasting Service has been successful from the beginning. It has not become a burden on the general taxpayer, and it is hoped that notwithstanding any expenditure on development in the future, the Broadcasting Service will continue to be self-supporting.

Mr. Briscoe

We do not propose to oppose this Vote. There are, however, a few items of general interest to which I would like to call the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary. As he said, there are something like 26,000 listeners in the whole of the Saorstát. There is no possibility under present conditions of that number being substantially increased. Wireless broadcasting means a great deal to the people of this State. Apart from the amusement and interest that would be obtained from intercourse with the outside world and from the reception of messages, the educational point of view has been completely lost sight of by the Department. Education costs this country £5,000,000 a year, and yet with a very small capital outlay and a very small addition for running expenses after such capital outlay has been made, the education of the community at large could be advanced by means of broadcasting in such a way as to interest practically every person in the whole Free State area. At the present time it is impossible to get any reception from either Cork or Dublin station in various parts of Ireland. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary is aware that there are schools in certain areas of the Free State, the managers of which are anxious to instal wireless apparatus, but they know that under present conditions it would be useless because they would get no reception.

I would also like to refer to a point raised here on the last occasion when this Estimate was under discussion. On that occasion the Parliamentary Secretary gave us to understand that practically all the plans had been completed for a central high power station, and that we might expect almost in the immediate future to hear an announcement from him with regard to the matter. A whole year has since gone by—the Estimate was introduced on the 11th May last year— and we have heard nothing further except the same pious wish and the same pious hope expressed that we will have at some future time in the country a high power station that will serve every member of the community. I am not at all satisfied that proper steps are being taken now to push the matter forward. I understand that the staff of the Department concerned with this particular Vote and the Advisory Board are unanimous in their recommendation to the Parliamentary Secretary that the erection of a central power station should be proceeded with immediately. I understand that the Minister for Finance, who is also the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, received in the former capacity the appeal for a high power station, and replied as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in a sympathetic way, promising to convey the matter to the Minister for Finance. He replies to himself as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and regrets that the Minister for Finance cannot see his way to sanction expenditure for that purpose. That is all very fine on paper. The Minister for Finance and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs are one and the same. I am satisfied from what I have heard that the Parliamentary Secretary is not to be blamed in this particular matter. I believe he has not in any way impeded what should be done. It is through him, however, that we have to appeal to the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to permit the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some indication as to when we may expect something in this particular matter.

The Parliamentary Secretary, in introducing the estimate referred to the arrangements entered into by European countries in agreeing upon various wave-lengths. The wave-lengths we have received up to the present for low-power stations, while allowing a slight increase in the case of Dublin, are not in any way going to make for the permanency of the reception throughout the whole area of the Free State. The Dublin wave-length would be permanent for the area which it at present serves. Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what wave-length was allocated to the Free State for the high-power station? Surely to goodness in the making of arrangements for the stations we have already steps should have been taken to secure a proper wave-length for the future central power station and to see that our rights were secured in that regard.

Mr. Heffernan

Our present wave-length of 411 metres is quite sufficient for a high-power station.

Mr. Briscoe

Is it proposed then to abolish either Dublin or Cork, or both, after the high-power station has been established?

Mr. Heffernan

That is a matter for consideration.

Mr. Briscoe

It would be impossible to run two stations, one a high-power station and the other a low-power station, with the same wave-length in the same country with different programmes. It was for the purpose of eliminating interference in that way that highly populated districts, from a broadcasting point of view, in European countries recently met. In the Free State area to have a high-power station and a low-power station with different programmes on the same wave-length would lead to great confusion. I take the liberty to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that that matter was overlooked, or that the Ministry of Finance has no intention of permitting the erection of a central high-power station.

The Parliamentary Secretary might satisfy me to a certain extent if he were to state what site has been decided upon. We were told last year that a great many technical experiments had been made in order to satisfy the Department that they were going to get the best class of high-power station. The Parliamentary Secretary also used the argument that, in view of the fact that wireless broadcasting and the instruments used therewith had not become properly stabilised, it would be bad policy to embark upon a huge expenditure for the erection of a high-power station and purchase of plant which might have to be scrapped after a very short period. Last year the Parliamentary Secretary indicated clearly that the time had been reached when such instruments and materials had become fairly stable, and when it would be fairly safe to embark on the erection of the station. He has, however, neglected to refer to this in a definite manner, and I hope that when he replies he will give some satisfactory indication as to the proposed position of the central high-power station.

I wish to emphasise the fact that broadcasting would be of great service to the schools. It is considered essential to embark upon a huge expenditure for the electrification of the country, in order to provide current to light the homes of the people and provide power for industry, but the farmer, if he were asked to choose between an electric bulb in exchange for his candle or lamp or a crystal set to receive some little entertainment during the dark winter nights, would choose the crystal set. I have made inquiries, and I find that in the rural areas the introduction of receiving sets into the homes, even if they were only crystal sets, would be a great boon. Even if some of these people are not going to get light from the Shannon scheme, at least they should get that little bit of brightness in their homes. I believe that the return in the way of licence fees and import duties on the sets would amply compensate the Department and that there would be no loss to the State.

I also wish to refer to the Board constituted to control broadcasting. I understand that the Chairman of that Board is the Secretary to the Department, and that the Secretary of the Board is the Director of broadcasting. I have nothing to say against either of these gentlemen, and I do not wish to be misunderstood, but I do say that as permanent civil servants they are, to a certain extent, in the position of having the right to sit in judgment on themselves. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he might study the regulations setting up that Board to see if he could not allow the Committee, which represents the Department and outside interested bodies at each particular sitting to elect their own chairman. The position now is that if the permanent chairman is absent a member of his Department, who is not a member of the Board and has no statutory right, acts as chairman. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of that or not, but it shows the necessity of getting this Board to work on a different basis. I do not suggest that the Board should interfere with the working of the Broadcasting Station, other than to recommend certain changes or alterations, and, in particular, to make recommendations in regard to the matter to be broadcast.

As to the Director of Broadcasting, the position appears to me this way: the Director is a member of the Civil Service, and if he, for the time, were changed and somebody else put in his place he would not suffer in any way. I am not suggesting that any person should lose his position, but I say that a change of Director would mean that we would have better chance of getting a complete change of programme. I do not know whether my Party will approve of my quoting from the official organ of the Government, "The Star," but I shall take the risk. In the issue of 16th March that paper winds up an article on wireless in this way: "The opinions of the Director are not always infallible, or disinterested, so why not consult the people at the other end?" I say that the Advisory Committee, which is chosen to act with the officials of the Department, might be able to have some of their recommendations accepted and put into operation if (1) the chairman was elected by the Committee themselves; (2) if the Director could be changed so as to have one person one day and another person another day, as having the same individual all the time does not allow for any real change in programme.

The number of licence holders in the Free State is 26,000. I want to show that there is evidently dissatisfaction of some kind with the broadcasting station as at present run. On several occasions an appeal was made from the broadcasting station to listeners-in to express an opinion with regard to certain matters. I understand that the greatest number of replies received to any appeal, no matter how urgent, did not exceed forty. If an urgent appeal to the listeners-in by the station for the purpose of getting suggestions for a better service is only answered by 40 out of 26,000 licence holders—and we may assume that at least one-third would be listening-in to Dublin—it goes to show that there is evidently no very great hope of getting any change made under present circumstances. The Parliamentary Secretary is aware that several written complaints have been made to his Department. Several matters have received attention, but the complaints themselves have never been adjusted in the sense that the person complaining has got complete satisfaction. As against that, there is a wireless organisation in Dublin that on one occasion issued an appeal to the public to turn up to a particular meeting, and while there were only ten or twelve members of the organisation present, the appeal was answered by over 150 people, which shows at least that they had the ear of more listeners-in than the broadcasting station itself.

I understand that there are great demands for a central power station, and various reasons are given as to why it cannot be gone on with at the present time. One of the reasons I took note of one time was that the high power station would be erected when it was possible to get power from the Shannon Scheme. I put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that a stand-by plant will always have to be kept in the central power station because in the event of a break-down in the power supplied by the Shannon, that stand-by power plant would come into use and you would get into touch with the whole country independently of the Shannon Scheme. It will have to be there; it will have to be got some time, and it might as well be got sooner as later, and that should not be one of the stumbling blocks that would impede the erection of a central station.

There is another matter to which I would draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary. I do not know whether he has any recommendation from his engineering staff in regard to it, but as far as I can judge the overhead wirings of the Shannon scheme, when the power is turned on, will react in the shape of a carrying wave which will interfere with reception. Has the Parliamentary Secretary had any information from the engineers in his Department upon that matter and will he see that some precautions are taken whereby the whole overhead wiring, particularly from Dublin to Limerick, in connection with the Shannon Scheme, is not going to act as an aerial which is considerably over a hundred feet in length and gives off a carrier wave much greater than the listeners-in with one hundred and fifty feet which is prohibited because of the interference caused by the carrying wave.

On the last occasion the Parliamentary Secretary gave us some information about the news. I wonder if the position is the same to-day. Are we still broadcasting the news we are getting free and which it was agreed upon on the last occasion was more or less in the nature of propaganda? We are all aware that the news broadcasted by the English stations is only such as the British Censorship or the British Government, after condensing or receiving, allows out. I think we should try to arrange now to get news independent of the English broadcasting stations, and I believe it is not a matter that would entail any great cost.

Representations have been made to the Parliamentary Secretary on many occasions for a programme for at least half an hour and if possible for one hour during the day. These representations were made on the one hand by those concerns that sell wireless accessories or sets. At the present time unless they keep their business houses open until eight or nine at night it is impossible for them to demonstrate a loud speaker or a wireless receiving set by tuning in to Dublin, and while it may seem peculiar, one of the main points concerned in the purchase of a set is that people want a set that will permit them to cut out Dublin when required. The only way that can be tested is when Dublin is in operation, and as Dublin does not operate in the afternoon except an occasional Saturday afternoon it is impossible for those traders to demonstrate their sets to prospective purchasers. One hour per day I understand would cost something like £100 or £200 a year. You do not necessarily need to give a programme in the sense of the programmes given in the evenings. Gramophone records, as are used on Continental and English stations, would suit, and not only would that be of use at the present time in helping people who make these representations but it would be a start off towards the general idea of developing a midday programme which eventually could be taken advantage of by schools in particular.

I should like to know if the Parliamentary Secretary has taken steps to find out the number of users of crystal sets as distinct from those who use valve sets. It might appear a very difficult problem at the outset, but inasmuch as it is very easy for the authorities to tell whether a person owns a male or a female dog it would be just as easy for the authorities to know whether a person was the owner of a crystal or a valve set, and instead of having a licence, as we have, which is practically a copy of the English licence, we should endeavour to have one of our own, and when a person is taking out a licence for a wireless he could very easily fill in an extra column and say whether the licence was for a valve set or a crystal set, so as to enable the Parliamentary Secretary to know how technically to distribute his programme and to get in touch with listeners-in on a proper basis and he would know how many crystal as well as valve sets he had to cater for.

I am told, of course, also that there is a view by the Department that it would not suit them at the present time to erect a central high-power station because of the fact that while there is no high-power station the people in the country are bound to have a set of a rather expensive nature, a valve set. If a central station were erected there would be the possibility of these people being able to use crystal sets and thereby the revenue derived from the import of valve sets would be eliminated and the State would have to suffer a loss. I do not think that people generally would quarrel with the erection of a high-power station and the use consequent upon them by a great number of people of even crystal sets. I do not expect the Parliamentary Secretary will answer all the points I tried to bring to his attention, but I would like to emphasise that there is a persistent demand for a definite statement as regards the erection of a high-power station. A year ago we were told it was in contemplation and that we could expect an announcement in the very near future. That question was asked by two or three Deputies on the last occasion, and if the Parliamentary Secretary will read the Debates he will find that when the question was asked the first time he answered "in the immediate future." When it was asked the second time he answered "in the near future," and when it was asked the third time he said "in the future." So I take it that according to the Parliamentary Secretary the nearer he gets to it the farther away we are from it. I would like an approximate date as to his future so far as the high-power station is concerned and when it will be gone on with.

He referred also to the capital expenditure on the installation of the stations themselves. From the Estimate it is not quite clear that the amounts spent upon plant were charged on the capital accounts. I would like the Secretary to state what is the actual expenditure on the existing stations. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the fact that there was a decrease in the Estimate but there is no decrease. The fact of your having to buy a little less plant for your already erected station does not mean you made any saving, but that you ceased to make further capital expenditure. Therefore there is no decrease. There is, in fact, a slight increase. If you were to take the Parliamentary Secretary's method of calculating, the difference between expenditure in excess or expenditure in less amount under E in 1928-29, the amount spent for purchase and erection of plant, renewals, maintenance, etc., was £2,300, and this year it is proposed to spend £1,350. It is between these two figures the item of decrease comes to a great extent and brings about a saving.

The Department has to be congratulated on the change they have made in the new addition, in the sense of having their studio erected in a different place. It has given, I understand, great satisfaction from the point of view of broadcasting, and will, I believe, be usable even when the proposed new central station is in use. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary also if he would be prepared now to state that he himself will consider the possibility of giving the Advisory Board some powers with regard to the recommendations which they make being put into operation. I believe that if he will agree to have this Board sit if they like to discuss programmes only, and on those occasions to permit them to elect their own chairman for the time being, then a particular difficulty will be overcome and there will be a great deal less complaints received by him from particular members of the Advisory Board, wireless organisations and the public generally. By putting on the extra hour's programme during the day he will be doing a great service to the traders to whom, on his own admission, he owes a lot and from whom revenue is derived on the importation of wireless sets and parts. As ratepayers and people who have helped tremendously in the development of wireless in this country, they should be considered. The cost is going to be a very small matter in comparison with this whole Vote. I hope the Minister will give those points the same attention as the criticism offered to him on the previoue Vote which he has had under discussion, and I hope his reply will be more favourable to those who are interested in having those improvements brought about.

Mr. Shaw

Last year I congratulated the Parliamentary Secretary on the great improvement that had been made in the previous twelve months in the broadcasting programmes. I am afraid that I cannot say that the same rate of improvement has been maintained. I fear that interest in broadcasting in the Free State has not developed as it should, notwithstanding the fact that we have been told that 2,000 more wireless apparatus have been erected than there were last year. It is not fair to criticise any Department unless you can suggest what improvements you consider could be made that would make broadcasting more popular. I intend to suggest a few improvements which I consider would. I believe more news concerning Irish events of importance would be appreciated. I believe, for instance, that developments in connection with the Shannon Scheme ought to be broadcasted and that the public should be given, I would go so far as to say, weekly talks in connection with this gigantic matter of importance that concerns, in my opinion, more than anything else, the future prosperity of this country. I would say that the vast majority of people who are very much interested in it do not know very much about it. I certainly say that that would be a matter, if it were dealt with, that every person in the country with a wireless set would listen-in to.

I know that we have had news broadcasted to us with reference to the Horse Show. I do not think we have had sufficient news. Even I would go so far as to say that the various stands for Irish produce and Irish machinery should be gone into in detail. I believe if that were done it would be listened-in to with very great interest by the people of this country.

With regard to music, I would like to hear more relays of opera from British and Continental stations. I listened-in to Gilbert and Sullivan operas from Toulouse and Koenigsburg some time recently. I will only say that they were superb. I will not say that they were a bit better than what our Irish artists broadcast. I am sure we would all like some variety in that matter. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider that. I am sorry to see that there is a profit of £6,658, because I think there should not be a profit in a matter of this kind. You have world-wide competition in broadcasting and people can listen-in to where they please. You should endeavour to popularise and develop Irish broadcasting. Of course people can go to Daventry and other places which they can get just as easily.

I would like more music from the Army and Garda bands, and particularly from the bands in the Dublin picture houses. The orchestras in the Capitol, the Metropole and the Grafton picture houses, in my opinion, cannot be beaten. There may not be sufficient money available for the orchestra belonging to the broadcasting people. I think if there were a larger number of people, even though it might cost more, it would be well-spent money. I also would like to see two hours' music on Sunday afternoon, because you do not begin until 8.30 on Sunday. I would certainly ask the Parliamentary Secretary to order relays from those picture houses between 2 and 4, or, if you like, any other time.

The talks on bridge which have been broadcasted from Daventry are very interesting to a large number of people. You have, in Dublin, a considerable number of people who are second to none in the world. Of that I have no doubt. If you invite those people to come to the studio weekly or fortnightly, as in Daventry, there would be a great many people interested. I know that the ladies in Dublin consider they are fit to compete with any persons in the world. I will put that to the Parliamentary Secretary if he wants something to interest a great many people. I am sure he would get plenty to do it free of charge.

I come now to my annual grumble, and that is while Ireland is the most sporting country in the world we are the only people who exclude racing news from being broadcast. It is an extraordinary thing that we have to go to Daventry and Belfast to hear what won the Irish Derby, the Irish Grand National, the Baldoyle Derby, or the races at Punchestown, Fairyhouse, or anywhere else you wish. Irish bred horses this year, and always, but particularly this year, have swept all before them. They have won every single big race run in England this year. I will read just one extract from an English paper in connection with it:—

Many comments, indeed were being made on the extraordinary series of Irish racing successes which this year has seen. It is a remarkable fact that every big race in 1929 has, so far, been won by an Irish horse. Elton won the Lincoln, Gregalach the Grand National, Adieu the Liverpool Cup, Parwiz the City and Suburban, First Flight the Chester Cup, Athford the Newbury Cup as well as Saturday's Jubilee, Royal Minstrel the Victoria Cup. And both the Guineas winners, Mr. Jinks and Taj Mah, are Irish, too.

We did not hear one word of that broadcasted from the Dublin Station.

Mr. Heffernan

I suggest that if the Deputy would tell us the horses that are going to win it would be far more popular.

Mr. Shaw

I wish I could. I do not blame the Parliamentary Secretary, because I know he is a bit of a sport, but I would like the Broadcasting Committee to be more broadminded. I believe they are taking a narrow view. There are 250 stud farms in this country, 40 large and 200 small. There are 3,000 brood mares with young stock in these stud farms, and all these winners that I have read out are closely related to them. They are doing more every day to uplift the name of Ireland than anything else. If that news were broadcasted you certainly would, in my opinion, have a greater number of sets than you have at the present time. It may be said that to broadcast these results would encourage gambling. I do not believe it. There are thousands of breeders and of small and large farmers who want to know how the stock they have produced are getting on. I certainly am aware that the people of Limerick, Kildare. Meath, Westmeath and Kilkenny would like to hear of the great victories of the horses that are bred in these counties, not alone in England but all over the world. Irish horses last year won £500,000 all over the world, but we did not hear one word of that from the Dublin Station. I mentioned that matter before and the Parliamentary Secretary said last year that the matter was not considered since he became Parliamentary Secretary. I want to know if it has been considered since, and if so, what the decision has been. If it is an adverse decision, I want to know the reasons for it, because we are isolated in regard to that particular matter. As I said before, persons who may possibly take a certain view do not consult the public. The vast majority of the people want to have the general news. I do not suggest for a moment that all the racing news should be broadcasted. People do not want minor news, but when Ireland has a singular success the Dublin Broadcasting Station ought to let the people of Ireland know it. An innumerable number of people would be delighted to hear of these successes. I hope my friend from Kilkenny, on my left, will bear me out. As a matter of fact, he asked me a moment ago what would win the Derby. Mr. Jinks was bred in Kilkenny and he ought to be able to tell us more about him than I could. That is all I have to say on that matter.

If a high-power station is going to be erected, I presume it is going to be erected in Athlone, which was decided on before. I believe that every town in Ireland ought to have a wireless set erected by the Urban Council at the expense of the ratepayers. It would cost very little, and it certainly would be a matter that the people would like to have and would be prepared to pay for. I have a pretty good set, and whenever there is anything important on in the way of football or music, or when there is a relay of the Grand National, a great number of people are very anxious to hear it. I certainly throw out that suggestion, because a set would only cost £50 to erect and £5 a year to maintain. In conclusion, I would like to say that I do not blame the Parliamentary Secretary, because I believe he would like to remedy these matters. I want to ask him now to say whether it has been turned down or whether it is going to be done.

Mr. Cassidy

My only reason for interfering in the debate on this Estimate is to direct the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to a grievance under which a few of the workers employed at the Dublin Station are labouring. I understand that there are four plant attendants employed at the Dublin Station and they only receive a basic wage of from 28/- to 32/- a week. I put forward the claim on behalf of these men that this work merits a higher grading. It is work of a highly technical character and involves responsibility. I understand that representations have been made to the Parliamentary Secretary's Department to get increased wages or salaries for these men, but the Post Office Department claim that the work is merely routine and is not of an arduous character. I would direct the attention of the House to the fact that in last year's Estimate these men were referred to as plant men. There are only four of them engaged. I notice in this year's Estimate they are referred to as skilled workmen. I submit that it requires a certain amount of skill to perform the work that these men are engaged in. They have been responsible for the smooth running of the Broadcasting Station, looking after the technical plant, and I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to look into the wages which these men are receiving and to get some recognition of their services.

Professor Thrift

I only want to make two or three remarks which are prompted by what Deputy Briscoe stated. I am sorry he has left. I think he is under a misapprehension, and what he said would leave those who heard him under a misapprehension. He referred to the Advisory Committee, and he seemed to indicate that the operations of that committee were cramped by the fact that they had a Departmental Chairman and Secretary. I wish to say, as a member of that Committee, that, in my opinion, that is an entirely erroneous view. It is quite true that various views have been expressed before the Committee, but on no occasion that I can remember was there any restriction on dicussion at these Committee meetings. Further, as far as I can remember, various recommendations were made after full discussion, and many of these recommendations bore fruit. In the case of those that did not bear fruit the reasons as to why they were not carried out were reported to the Committee. I think it would be very regrettable if any wrong impression was created as to the way in which that Committee has been worked.

I am not going to deal in detail with the points raised by Deputy Briscoe, but I must say that I am sorry we do not seem to be appreciably nearer to our high-power station. References have been made to the number of subscribers and it is estimated that we will have 30,000 in the coming year. If Deputies would look back on the debates in connection with this matter that have taken place ever since the original Committee on Wireless Broadcasting sat, they would be greatly astonished at the views that were then expressed as to what the likely number of subscribers would be. I am sure that 30,000 would be thought an absurdly optimistic figure at that time. I agree with Deputy Briscoe that it is not likely there will be any big increase in that number. I think, however, that it will increase. The big increase will only come when we get our high-power station. That station will make broadcasting widely accessible to those people throughout the country who are not able to afford big valve sets. I believe it is in that respect that broadcasting in this country is likely to be most successful. I think it would pay us in the end to be optimistic in this matter. Even if we had to take the cost of the high-power station as something to be paid for over a number of years, it would be well worth undertaking the expenditure because of the good it would do the country socially, educationally and otherwise. I am sure a very large number of new licences would be taken out following the construction of the high-power station. I am sorry we do not seem to be appreciably nearer the erection of that station than we were two years ago. Beyond what was told us last year, when it was decided that there should be a high-power station, nothing seems to have been done.

Mr. Goulding

I am not in a position to criticise the programme broadcasted from the Dublin station because of the fact that I am unable to get that station. I complained to the Parliamentary Secretary before, and he mentioned that possibly the alteration in the wave-length would help to improve matters, but quite the contrary has happened. There are other people in the same position as I, and they have not been able to get the Dublin programme so far. When the high-power station is erected, I hope there will be a better form of transmission. I was able to get the Dublin station before the change in the wave-length, but the reception was not at all good. Interference was of such a nature as to spoil the musical programme. Certain German stations are always audible. I have been told by a person interested in wireless that the wave-length allotted to Dublin recently is too low, and that the change over to the new wave-length has not been successful in other stations also, and that the whole system will be recast after some time. I hope that when the wave-lengths are being recast, the Parliamentary Secretary will get a better wave-length for Dublin than the present one. When we succeed in getting the Dublin station again, I hope the transmission and reception will have considerably improved.

Mr. de Loughrey

I quite agree with what Deputy Shaw has said. There is no doubt that people generally take a great interest in horse racing, particularly when Irish horses are entered. I never had the good fortune to be able to pick a winner, so that horse racing has not a personal appeal. The great masses of the people, however, are deeply interested. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to consider Deputy Shaw's suggestion that the results of big races in which Irish horses, and particularly Kilkenny horses, compete, should be broadcasted. The reception of the Dublin station, although it has been improved as far as our area is concerned, leaves a good deal still to be accomplished. I do not think there is any way out of the difficulty other than the establishment of a high-power station. People who are paying licences for sets are eagerly looking forward to such a station, and there is a great deal of disappointment that it has not been erected. So far as the Dublin programmes are concerned, I believe they are as good as the programmes of many other stations and they can hold their own with any station. The music is good and the programmes generally are excellent, but the reception might be improved.

The Parliamentary Secretary talked about a licence on performing rights. That is a thing that ought to be tackled in this country. I understand there is an association in London which insists on collecting fees for royalities on music and songs, and there is no court of appeal. Seemingly they can charge what they like. In this country we should not tolerate that. I recognise that composers of music and songs ought to get paid for their ability, but it is an intolerable thing that a society in London can fix the fees and no one can question them. Although the Dublin programmes are excellent, I do not think there is enough of ancient Irish music broadcasted. I do not think I ever heard "The Boys of Kilkenny" broadcasted from the Dublin station. It is an excellent old Irish song, very popular, and I have not heard it so far.

Mr. Lemass

Give us a verse.

Mr. de Loughrey

I believe the public would appreciate a broadcast of racing results and because of that I shall back Deputy Shaw's appeal.

Mr. Carney

I desire to endorse what has been said in regard to the broadcasting of racing results. I am not very much of a racing man, but because horse-breeding is such a national asset I think such a course as has been suggested would be very much appreciated, particularly by people residing in the counties mentioned by Deputy Shaw and others. Racing does not appeal to us very much in my constituency; we do not go in very much for racing there; but in some of the counties mentioned, Kilkenny and so on, where the horses are fine roving blades— they proved that when they went across the Channel—I am sure the people would appreciate the results of race meetings on the wireless.

The transmission from the Dublin Station is not what it should be. It may be that the distance is too long, but nevertheless the transmission should be better. From the scientific point of view it cannot be correct that the reception in a place like Donegal should be so faint as it is. There is also a considerable amount of interference with reception, but that will happen in the best-ordered world. The transmission recently has been so bad that proper reception from the Dublin Broadcasting Station could not be got. There has been some criticism of the programmes and we are told that they have not been what they might be. Certainly there has not been as much of the old music broadcasted as one would like. Of course, I know it is not much appreciated by certain people in this country. At the same time, the rank and file of the people who pay for licences would appreciate it very much and they should be catered for, and not the people who raise an objection because national music is broadcasted.

There has been talk about a high-power station. It is not within the province of everybody to instal an expensive receiving set. If there were a high-power station it would be possible for people, for from £5 to £12, to instal a set which would give proper reception.

That has been talked about for a long time. There is a big expenditure that we are expected to vote for in this Estimate, and at the same time nothing has been done towards the erection of that high-power station. Any station on the Continent of Europe can be got more easily than the Dublin Station at the present time. One can tune in to Berlin, Madrid or any other European city and get proper reception, but the broadcasting station in Dublin remains practically unknown. That ought not to be the case, and it is up to the Parliamentary Secretary to see that, if he is going to have a big expenditure on broadcasting at least we will get an opportunity some time of hearing the Dublin Broadcasting Station.

Mr. Lemass

There are one or two remarks I would like to make on this Vote. It seems to me that the broadcasting authorities are fighting too shy of controversial matter in the preparation of their programmes. I think that most people recognise that you cannot arouse interest in any particular thing until you have succeeded in arousing controversy about it. There would be more interest in the matter of broadcasting from Dublin if that matter contained in it items of a controversial nature. Some time ago the broadcasting authorities here appeared to embark upon such a programme. Certain matters which would be considered controversial were broadcasted and I know that they aroused considerable interest, but apparently that policy has been lately reversed. I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if it is intended to embark upon that policy again or if there has been any definite decision with regard to it? The general remarks which one hears about the Dublin programmes are to the effect that while the standard is generally good, the items are somewhat monotonous. In other words, the same type of programme is repeated evening after evening, and even though the programmes include items that are worth listening to, it is the similarity of the programmes that causes dissatisfaction.

There is a good case to be made for the suggestion made by Deputy Shaw that such items of news as the result of a big race should be broadcasted. Personally, I do not take an interest in those matters, but I know people who do, and those who live outside the cities are anxious to get the late news about these matters, news which they cannot get in the Press, and they would be glad if the broadcasting authorities decided to give such items. The various horses to which Deputy Shaw referred are unknown to me. He mentioned one name, a possible winner of the Derby, Mr. Jinks. He may win that stake, though he was a non-starter in Sligo-Leitrim—he may do better outside his own country.

There are other items of news which could be broadcasted also to advantage. Having listened to some of the news items broadcasted recently they seemed to me to contain very little beyond what is contained in the evening papers. Most of them were items that were in the evening papers. If there is to be broadcasting at 10.30 p.m. it should include items which reach Dublin late in the evening, such items as reach Dublin too late to be inserted in the evening papers. That very rarely happens except when there is something of a highly sensational nature. I would like to have from the Parliamentary Secretary his views on that, and whether he would say if it is intended to rule out controversial matters altogether from the programme or whether it is intended to include those matters; if so, to what extent. I would like if he would say whether it would be possible to extend further the news items service at present being given.

Mr. Heffernan

The last speaker has touched on three of the most important items of criticism in connection with wireless broadcasting. I will deal with his criticism first. With regard to the news items, we are aware that the news broadcasted from the Dublin Broadcasting Station is not the best possible service. As a matter of fact, we work at considerable disadvantages at the present moment in that regard. We have in our employment a news editor who is responsible for providing the news entirely. Negotiations and discussions have been going on for a considerable time between the various interests who would be able to supply us with a better supply of news—with a more up-to-date supply of news at the time of broadcasting. These include the various newspaper interests in Dublin, as represented by their newspaper society and, I think, various forms of Press agency. But so far we have been unable to come to a satisfactory arrangement with any of those people with regard to the supply of any of these services. Consideration was given also to the possibility of developing a much more elaborate and a much more expensive news service of our own. Personally I am of opinion that that proposition was not feasible. The suggestion was to develop a complete service of our own, partly in opposition to the newspapers. If we were to do this it would be a very expensive undertaking indeed. I believe it is not possible to get a listener to listen with appreciation to a news service for a long period. You can give people five, seven or ten minutes of a news service twice in the evening. However, the matter is being reconsidered at the moment, and personally I hope that we will be able to arrive at some satisfactory decision in the immediate future, and that we will be able to give a better service in a short time.

I also accept the criticism that the programme in the Dublin Broadcasting Station is monotonous. I quite agree with that criticism. But Deputies must realise that in that regard we are hampered. The variety of artistes in Ireland is not so great as it would be in London and in other cities. However, we are constantly on the watch. We are constantly looking out for new ideas of a broadcasting interest, and we are ready to receive suggestions from anybody. In that connection I am also in agreement that controversial matters in broadcasting would be listened to with a great deal of interest. As Deputy Lemass knows, we did embark some considerable time ago on a very controversial matter. I do believe that a lot of listeners-in were very pleased with the debate which took place on that occasion. One of the main speakers was the Deputy himself. I refer to the broadcasting of the debate on fiscal matters, Protection versus Free Trade. Every Deputy recognises in dealing with controversial matters that an undertaking that is under Government control is under a considerable disadvantage, particularly in view of the fact that almost every controversial matter in this country is really a political matter.

Unless the Leader of his Party can reach an agreement with the Leader of the Government Party, the Leader of the Labour Party and the Leader of the Farmers' Party as to what may be broadcasted and as to who may speak I could not guarantee to recommend the broadcasting of political matters. Perhaps when the next general election is in the offing we may reconsider it.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Parliamentary Secretary assure us that he will have the consent of the Leader of the Farmers' Party?

Mr. Heffernan

I did not catch the Deputy's remark. Deputy Briscoe in his various criticisms dealt with the question of educational broadcasting. That matter is somewhat difficult. In fact, it has not been fully worked out in other places where greater resources are available than here. I understand that the B.B.C. have not arrived at a definite policy in regard to educational broadcasting. There are a great many difficulties to be overcome. Naturally the difficulties here would be greater than in Great Britain. It is really a matter principally for the Department of Education. In so far as we are concerned, we have offered that Department facilities for putting on the air any matter which they desire, and we have offered them the use of the station for that purpose, but we do not think that the duty is cast on us of supplying matter for educational broadcasting to schools. Arrangements would have to be made with the schools and for the provision of receiving sets in them. I do not think that there are financial provisions for supplying sets to schools nor are there any arrangements by which a large number of children could listen-in for a considerable time. It is a matter on which there is not, so far, any very definite general consensus of opinion. I may say, however, that we are prepared to do our part if other people come to a decision as to what is to be done.

Almost every Deputy who spoke referred to the advisability of establishing a central high-power station. I have stated my views previously on that matter, both in the Dáil and outside, and I still hold the same views. I think that it is practically up to the Government of the country to provide such a station. The Department which I represent has submitted proposals to the Ministry of Finance in that connection and, so far as I am aware, the difficulty up to the present has been mainly financial. It would be necessary to provide a considerable amount of capital, but although we believe that it would be repaid over a period of years through the increase of licences and other sources of revenue we can only estimate that such will be the case and there is no guarantee that the State would not be called upon permanently to bear portion of the cost of a high-power station. It has not yet become an established principle that broadcasting should be subsidised by the State. So far as our Department is concerned, we have put our proposals before the Department of Finance and we suggest to Deputies to recommend that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs should confer with the Minister for Finance and try to arrive at a decision whether we should have a high-power station.

I am perfectly well aware that if we are to meet the requirements of rural areas it will be necessary to establish a high-power station. I also agree with Deputies who say that it is more essential that people in agricultural and rural districts should be given an opportunity of listening to wireless programmes on cheap crystal sets and that they should have educational and entertaining programmes placed at their disposal than supplying such programmes to people in cities who have many alternative means of amusement. As I say, I believe that that should be the main function of broadcasting in this country. Deputy Briscoe entered into a discussion on the functions and working of the advisory committee. I do not want to enter into any deep controversy on that matter. The Deputy has been answered in part by Deputy Thrift, who is a member of that committee. Personally I am satisfied that the committee is serving a useful purpose. It is, of course, only an advisory committee. We have reason to be thankful to the various members of that committee, who have given freely the benefit of their time and intelligence in helping us to provide the best possible programmes.

Certain objections have been taken to the fact that the Secretary of the Post Office acts as Chairman to that committee. I am satisfied, as Deputy Thrift said, that he is performing his duties in that connection satisfactorily, and is giving general satisfaction to most members of the committee. Also I understand that it is a general practice in regard to advisory committees set up to advise Government Departments that the Chairman should be an official. From many points of view I think that that is the correct course to follow. You must have continuity in regard to the chairmanship, and you must have the official point of view maintained right through the proceedings. I am rather afraid that a great deal of the criticism directed against the advisory committee has been inspired by motives which are not altogether meant to be for the advantage of the broadcasting undertaking. I cannot say what the motives are, but there seems to be in certain quarters a certain type of pin-pricking and non-constructive criticism. I doubt whether those behind it are really anxious for the welfare and development of the Dublin Broadcasting Station. I hope I am misjudging them, but I am rather doubtful, considering the continual form of criticism that has come from certain quarters, which are also responsible for the criticisms of the work of the advisory committee. Deputy Briscoe also referred to the suggestion about changing the Director of Broadcasting. Evidently he had in view the idea that the changing of the Director would mean more satisfactory programmes. I am not at all agreeing with that suggestion. I believe that the existing Director is performing his difficult duties satisfactorily, and I have no reason to think that changing the Director for some other person would result in more satisfactory programmes being broadcasted from the Dublin station.

The Deputy also made some comments in regard to interference by the Shannon Scheme. There is no doubt that the Shannon Scheme, when it is in working order, will interfere with wireless broadcasting to a certain extent, but to what extent I am not in a position to say. I might as well acknowledge that I yield to no man in my ignorance in regard to the technical side of broadcasting. It will interfere, I admit, to a certain extent; but what can be done? Is Deputy Briscoe prepared to suggest that we ought not to carry out the Shannon Scheme in order that people will have a better reception? It seems that there is no technical process existing which will prevent interference or improve reception in certain instances. If the Deputy has any simple means whereby interference will be prevented perhaps he will be able to meet me, but I doubt it very much.

Various Deputies have referred to the fact that in certain parts of the country reception has proved very unsatisfactory. Deputy Goulding referred to some blind spots. That, again, is a technical matter. It is a fact that the science of wireless broadcasting is not a fixed science so far, and that there are many factors which are not yet understood or the reasons for which are not properly known yet. There are certain blind spots in various parts of the country. It is difficult to tell what is the reason at the moment, but the science of wireless broadcasting is improving from day to day, and the reasons for these blind spots may be discovered and a remedy found in the course of time. One of the curious facts in that connection is that people from far away write to us telling us that they get a very satisfactory reception. We get letters from the coast of Wales and from the Orkney and Shetland Islands expressing approval of the reception and of the programme, especially contributions by the Ceilidhe Trio. These people in far-away parts seem to appreciate Irish national music much more than people at home. Deputy Briscoe also referred to the suggestion that programmes should be put on at certain hours during the day so as to give traders in wireless instruments an opportunity of demonstrating their sets. This suggestion was put to me by one of the trade members of the organisation. I informed him that we would give the matter consideration to see if it could be done. It will largely depend upon the expense involved. I do not think that the amount suggested by the Deputy, £300, would cover the expense. However, it is being considered and a decision will be arrived at shortly. The Deputy suggested something about getting information as to the numbers of crystal and valve sets by means of supplying space on the wireless licence form for the purpose. That seems quite a reasonable suggestion, and I will look into the matter and see if it could easily be carried out.

Deputy Briscoe also wanted some information in regard to capital expenditure on the broadcasting service. The Deputy will probably notice if he looks back over the the accounts since the inception of the broadcasting undertaking that capital expenditure has been met out of the Vote from year to year and that the revenue in effect has paid capital expenditure so far. The various amounts expended of a capital nature since the establishment of broadcasting are as follows—they also include renewals and maintenance expenditure, so that they are not strictly of a capital nature:— In 1925-26, £63,066: in 1926-27, £62,023; in 1927-28, £68,011. I think these three years cover the main expenditure. The total is £193,100, but for accounting purposes it is regarded as capital expenditure, as it is paid out of the Vote from year to year. Deputy Shaw, I think, referred to the programme and suggested improvements, particularly in regard to broadcasting matters such as Horse Show events and more operatic music from the Continent. The Deputy's suggestion will receive careful consideration. As regards the suggestion in reference to the broadcasting of the results of horse races. I want to say that we did relay a running commentary on the Derby. It seems to me possible that similar commentaries on important races, or even the results of important races, might be broadcasted. The question of a general broadcast of results of racing is a matter on which I am not prepared to give any definite opinion at the moment. I think it would hardly be a generally acceptable policy that a State wireless broadcasting undertaking should broadcast racing results to the extent of stimulating betting, so that those who have now to wait for their morning or evening papers to know the results of races run in England would have the knowledge provided for them by the broadcasting institution. However, it can be, and will be again considered.

Deputy Cassidy referred to the pay of skilled workmen—a wage of 28/- to 42/- for our skilled workmen at the station. That is a matter that has not been brought to my notice before. I cannot give any information on the merits of the case now, but I will look into it and give the Deputy the information at a later date. Deputy Goulding referred to the difficulty of reception in his district, and he suggested that there should be a change in wave-length. I am afraid that Deputy Goulding's district must also be one of the blind spots, and I do not know that a change in wave-length would have any effect in improving reception. We are satisfied that the present medium wave-length, as it is technically called, is generally satisfactory, and I think we were fairly lucky in getting that wave-length. I understand that since we changed over to the present wave-length reception has been better than previous to the adoption of that wave-length. In that connection I might mention, in reply to the statement of Deputy Briscoe, that we are satisfied that the present medium wave-length that has been allotted to us will be quite satisfactory for the high-power station. I believe we are also satisfied, if the policy should be to have a high-power station in addition to maintaining a station both in Dublin and Cork or a station in Dublin or Cork, that the wave-length will be satisfactory, and can be used to give satisfaction. I cannot explain the technical reasons, but I am so advised. Deputy Carney dealt with the question of poor transmission, the reasons for which I have already explained. Deputy de Loughrey had a grievance because of the fact that traditional airs from Kilkenny were not broadcasted. We have been broadcasting a great deal of traditional Irish music, and on the next occasion I shall take pains to see that the Kilkenny boys will not be forgotten.

Vote put and agreed to.