In regard to the point raised by Deputy Mrs. Collins-O'Driscoll, I think the Deputy is not quite accurate in regard to the facts. The facts are, I believe, that there is a flat rate of charges, within a radius of one mile, the rate being £5 for private residences and £6 10s. for business premises. Outside a radius of one mile there is an increase for every furlong of the additional distance beyond that mile. That applies to the service all over the Free State. I think I can assure Deputy Mrs. Collins-O'Driscoll that, in connection with the extension of the automatic system in Dublin, the question of varying the system of charges will be considered and that we will be able to deal with the point raised by the Deputy. I was surprised and sorry to hear that the Post Office within recent years has lost the services of such a valuable official as Deputy Dr. Tubridy. The Deputy probably knows that a committee has been set up by the Government to inquire into cases which the Deputy mentioned, that is, the cases of officials who were dismissed because of their connection with the Irregular activities, and if the Deputy approaches that committee, I have no doubt that they will give sympathetic consideration to his case. I cannot answer his question with regard to the proper Irish spelling of the Irish term for Post Office. I thought that possibly An Leas-Cheann Comhairle might have enlightened the Deputy in view of his recent sojourn in Spiddal. However, we can probably discuss that matter at some other stage.
Deputy Anthony has put down a motion that this Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. I am rather surprised that the Deputy put down a motion of that kind, because I consider that the case made in regard to it is hardly justified. The facts of the Deputy's case evidently are that a comparatively small number of the engineering staff in various parts of the Free State have had their services dispensed with because of the fact that the engineering work is not proceeding at as rapid a rate as in the past. The number of workmen dispensed in Cork is twenty. There are others whose services have been dispensed in other districts. Those are workmen who were employed in a temporary capacity and the Post Office was under no contractual obligation to retain their services. At the same time I might say that it is with reluctance we found ourselves obliged to dispense with the services of workmen who had given satisfactory service. The position in regard to Cork area was that those men were employed in the area up to the end of 1927. At the end of that year, when the work they were employed on had sufficiently advanced, it was thought that it would be necessary to dispense with the services of many of them. Development works were commenced in the west and north-west, and it was found possible to employ these twenty men in these areas for about twelve months. On the return of the men to Cork there was sufficient work to keep them going until March, 1929, and their employment in most instances would have continued were it not for the fact that the original programme of work marked out was reduced to a considerable extent. I have here a copy of a circular issued by the engineer-in-chief to his various district engineers in connection with the dismissal of those men, and the circular itself shows that the instructions are that the dismissals should take place in such a way as to cause the least possible hardship to the men dismissed.
Generally speaking, the method of dismissal is that the most junior workmen and the workmen most recently employed would be the first to go. That is the system which the engineer-in-chief recommends to be carried out. He also recommends that consideration be given to the domestic and family conditions of the various employees who are losing their jobs. Consideration has been given to such cases. The only concession I can personally offer to make to the Deputy is that if there are cases of extreme hardship, in regard to the domestic conditions of such men, I will personally consider such cases if representations are made to me although I cannot guarantee that in any particular case the men will be re-employed.
Considerable comment has taken place in regard to the manner in which this Vote was placed before the House. Several Deputies referred to the fact that figures were given to them which there was no possibility of understanding or assimilating in the time at their disposal. I want to say that on a Vote dealing with a Department of this kind, involving so many activities and dealing largely with matters of pounds, shillings and pence, and with matters which must be referred to in great numbers, without embarking on an explanation involving a great many statistics, the practice has been to give these statistics. I have to a considerable extent adopted that practice and in certain cases elaborated on that practice. However, one aspect of the debate last night made it clear to me that it is possible to get a grasp of the figures even if one has not access to the figures before they are given to the Dáil. That was the criticism of the Vote and of the Department made by Deputy Lemass. I want to say that I appreciate the manner in which Deputy Lemass approached the activities of this Department and the manner in which he analysed and criticised the figures placed at his disposal. I do not agree with the conclusions he arrived at, but I do say at least that he made a reasonable case from his point of view, and that he did not, to any considerable extent, exaggerate the argument which he was making in order to arrive at the particular conclusion at which he was aiming.
It is not my intention, in replying to the case made by Deputy Lemass, again to embark on an explanation of the figures which I have given to the House and the figures which he gave in reply. I believe that a debate of this kind is not the proper place in which to develop a cross argument between the Opposition and these benches on the various statisties, because, as the Deputy said, figures can be made to prove anything. Doubtless Deputy Lemass and I could speak on these figures for hours without convincing the Dáil one way or another as to which of us had made the best case. I am, of course, aware of the fact that by giving so many statistical statements and figures on public matters concerned with the activities of this Department I am leaving myself open to attack, and that I am providing the Opposition with ammunition to be used on this occasion, and on future occasions, but at the same time I believe that the figures which were given can be relied upon. I am so satisfied as to their genuineness and accuracy and the deductions I have arrived at with regard to them that I am taking that risk. Deputy Lemass's examination of this Vote, and the method by which he tried to show that if his advice was followed, the deficit which at present exists in the Post Office might be reduced or made to disappear altogether made me realise that Deputy Lemass has given a considerable amount of consideration to this Vote. I flatter myself that amongst his other numerous activities in the shadow Cabinet of the Opposition the Deputy must be contemplating at some future time his appointment as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Whether he intends to amalgamate that with some more important Ministry I cannot say. In any case, I felt he honoured me by indicating that he has some view of that kind in mind.
The Deputy endeavoured to show that in his opinion the present deficit on the Post Office could be made up in certain simple ways which he pointed out. Leaving aside for a moment the question of the telegraph charges, I shall deal with some of the other points he made. These changes appear much simpler to one who has not the inside knowledge which one gets from being conversant with the working of the Department. He refers to the statement of gains and losses on the postal branch, which was furnished in the past to Deputies, and which was furnished to Deputy Lemass by request. I mentioned in my opening statement that we did not furnish the Dáil on this occasion with these figures because, as a result of examination by a Departmental Committee, the Committee stated that they were not satisfied that these figures are such as can be fully relied upon. When I say that what I mean is that these figures are based on a fairly exact system of accounting, which consists of computing the amount of time, etc., devoted to various activities on a unit basis. Taking it from an accounting point of view, it is probable that the apportionment of the various gains and losses on the postal service is correct. But although we recognise that from an accounting point of view it is correct, if we take, for instance, the particular item of registered correspondence mentioned by the Deputy, upon which a loss of £145,000 is shown, which undoubtedly is an accounting loss, by simply wiping out the registered correspondence service, we are satisfied no saving of that kind would occur. We are satisfied that the saving which would accrue would be comparatively small.
The same explanation applies to all these losing services. They are so interlaced and connected with the general activities of the Post Office staff that the lopping off of them would not cause a reduction of expenditure to anything like the amount of the loss in regard to each particular service—in fact, the reduction would be only a very small proportion of each particular loss. But, if you view it from the point of view that, instead of abolishing these services, you should increase the charges, again we are satisfied that in these cases the increased charge would not have the effect of bringing in increased revenue to the extent of the increased charges, because the services would suffer to such an extent that the revenue would fall and the loss would still continue to exist. As I am dealing with that point, I might as well deal with the comparison which will be made with the telegraph service. In connection with the telegraph service the people have an alternative service at their disposal to a very large extent in the telephone service. But if you wipe out various activities of the Post Office on the postal side, for instance, you do not offer any alternative to take their place.
I do not intend to enter on a discussion with regard to the effect of the increased charge on telegrams. All I can say is that I have made my case. I was obliged to make it at considerable length, because it could not be made otherwise. My case will appear in the Official Report and so will that of Deputy Lemass, and it will be for Deputies, who have any doubt about which case has been best made, to decide which of us has justified the case which he was making.
