Last Thursday I was endeavouring to show the cost of the Seanad and Dáil at present as compared with the cost of Government before the setting up of the Free State. Another matter that weighs very heavily with Deputies in coming to a decision on this Bill is the fact that the mode of election to the Seanad has been changed by recent legislation. That convinces me that in the very near future the Seanad will be nothing more or less than a mere creature of the Dáil since the members of the Seanad will depend very much for their election to the Upper House upon the votes of members of the Dáil. Speaking generally on this Bill, I think that Deputies should keep before their minds the present economic position of the country, and they should do something in the way of reducing taxation. There has been a tendency during this debate more or less to raise a smoke screen around this Bill. References have been made to party funds and how these funds were acquired. I am not going to enter into that part of the discussion. The Bill is a very simple one and it requires a very straight and definite answer. I think the country expects that Deputies will vote for the measure. The country is looking forward to some tangible proof of the bona fides of Deputies when they state that taxation should be reduced. They have now an opportunity of reducing taxation. So far as I am concerned I have no hesitation in supporting this Bill. I believe it will be only the beginning of a policy of retrenchment which is so badly needed if this country is to get back to a prosperous condition.
Private Deputies' Business. - Oireachtas (Payment of Members) (No. 2) Bill, 1928—Second Stage (Resumed).
The only consideration that should make people decide whether they vote for or against this Bill is whether the State is justified in paying £360 a year to members of a merely criticising body. The Seanad, I admit, makes useful criticisms at times, but they have no executive powers. The Seanad cannot interfere with Money Bills, I understand. They have, theoretically, powers to hold up legislation for a short period of time; but really it amounts to this, that it is only a criticising body. Moreover, the members of the Seanad are more or less recruited from the leisured classes, and I doubt very much if a single member of the Seanad would resign if Deputy Thrift's Bill becomes law; in fact, my opinion—and I go further than Deputy Thrift—is that we would get a better body of critics if the members of the Seanad were not paid at all.
I agree with a great deal that Deputy Mathews said on Friday, but he was very inconsistent. He pleaded for economies. He said every mickle makes a muckle, and then he told us he was going to vote for this mickle. Apparently he is the inventor of a new theory, that half a loaf is worse than no bread. I hope, however, that when he comes to reconsider his decision he will change his mind about the way in which he will record his vote. I take it that as this is a Private Deputy's Bill the Government forces and the forces of the chief Opposition, Fianna Fáil, will not be marshalled and that everyone in the House will be free to give his opinion as to what he thinks is the proper course.
I shall not detain the House for many minutes, because there are really only two points that I want to make. The first point is in answer to the different criticisms that have been made on the Bill. I think that the one point really answers them all—whether it is a point like that of Deputy Law, who objects to our dealing with Senators and not dealing with ourselves, or a point made by a Deputy like Deputy Esmonde, who, with much misplaced ingenuity, tried to find abstruse reasons for the introduction of the Bill. In fact, every criticism that was made against the Bill is answered by one single point, and it is this. I want the House to consider the state of things in 1928, and the point I am making is so simple and clear that it can be argued almost with mathematical precision. In 1928 the Dáil and Seanad held that the circumstances and the expenses of Deputies and Senators were such that equal allowances were justified for both. In 1928 a Bill was passed into law which altered those circumstances in favour of Senators. It altered them in a very substantial way, because in future Senators are to be elected without the very large expense of election which then prevailed. Therefore, I contend it is perfectly clear that, if the circumstances were such as to justify equal allowances before 1928, in the autumn of 1928, when we altered those circumstances, we made the position such that the Senators cannot any longer justify equal allowances. On the Committee Stage of the Bill, if the Bill ever gets to a Committee Stage, it will be for the House to say whether the figure mentioned in the Bill is a proper figure to which the allowances of Senators should be reduced.
It seems to me to be perfectly and mathematically clear that if you make an alteration which alters the circumstances in favour of the Senators, that should be accompanied by a corresponding alteration in the allowances they are to receive. That is the reason why this Bill was introduced. This Bill was introduced immediately after the Bill had passed into law which made an alteration in the method of the election of Senators. Senators are no longer put to the expense of circularising a huge constituency; they are to be elected in the future simply by the votes of the Dáil and the Seanad, a method without expense to them.
The second point I wish to make is really a consequence of the first. So far as I am concerned, I would be prepared, on the Committee Stage, to accept an amendment that this reduction should take place for future Senators only. I wish to emphasise that what I have stated is the real reason for the introduction of the Bill. I am prepared, as I have said, to accept an amendment by which this will apply to future Senators only. That is simply stated on my own responsibility. I do not know whether the other Independent Deputies will take that view or not. I state that as my own view and I put it forward as a confirmation of the main argument which I have given as the reason for the Bill.
The Bill is capable of amendment on the Committee Stage in at least these two ways. As for the main principle of the Bill which we are discussing here on the Second Reading, it seems to me to be unanswerable that if before 1928 the circumstances justified equal allowances— and I have no doubt that the Dáil and Seanad were right in saying their circumstances justified equal allowances—then when you alter those circumstances in favour of Senators I submit that you should correspondingly diminish their allowances. I think the case for the Second Reading is unanswerable, and I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Alton, Ernest Henry.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Seán.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Daniel.
- Carney, Frank.
- Carty, Frank.
- Coburn, James.
- Colbert, James.
- Cole, John James.
- Cooney, Eamon.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Davis, Michael.
- Fahy, Frank.
- Flinn, Hugo.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- French, Seán.
- Good, John.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Goulding, John.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hayes, Seán.
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Jordan, Stephen.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Kent, William R.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moore, Séamus.
- Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
- Nally, Martin Michael.
- O'Kelly, Seán T.
- O'Leary, William.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- O'Reilly, Thomas.
- Powell, Thomas P.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Sexton, Martin.
- Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
- Smith, Patrick.
- Thrift, William Edward.
- Tubridy, John.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C.
Níl
- Aird, William P.
- Anthony, Richard.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Blythe, Ernest.
- Bourke, Séamus A.
- Broderick, Henry.
- Brodrick, Seán.
- Byrne, John Joseph.
- Carey, Edmund.
- Cassidy, Archie J.
- Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
- Conlon, Martin.
- Connolly, Michael P.
- Hassett, John J.
- Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
- Hennessy, Thomas.
- Hennigan, John.
- Henry, Mark.
- Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
- Keogh, Myles.
- Law, Hugh Alexander.
- Lynch, Finian.
- Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
- McDonogh, Martin.
- MacEóin, Seán.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- Mongan, Joseph W.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Crowley, James.
- Daly, John.
- Davin, William.
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- Dwyer, James.
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- Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Gorey, Denis J.
- Murphy, James E.
- O'Connell, Richard.
- O'Connell, Thomas J.
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- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Reynolds, Patrick.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Roddy, Martin.
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- Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
- Tierney, Michael.
- Wolfe, George.