In my opening statement yesterday, I said that in regard to this Department above all the other Departments the maxim of the Executive Council clearly was "Government by officials for officials." As one with five years' experience of local government boards I can say that we have on every occasion found the Department of Local Government crying out for increased salaries for every official appointed, no matter what the job was. On one occasion recently the South Cork Board of Assistance had to increase a doctor's salary, under the instructions of the Minister, from £70 to £250. I refer to the doctor for the Macroom Cottage Hospital. The plans for the hospital were sent up here and were approved by the Department's engineers. Now we find that if we are to carry out the wishes of the new doctor, we will have to build two new hospitals in addition to the one already built. The Minister was in County Cork last week, and I am sure he was acquainted with the state of affairs when he went to the County Home. I do not know whether or not he visited the Macroom Hospital.
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 40—Local Government and Public Health (Resumed).
I did.
Does the Minister feel inclined to follow the advice of the doctor—that we should build two additional hospitals in order to enter the latest sphere of science as outlined by the new doctor? The recommendation he sent to the Board of Assistance would mean between £1,500 and £1,700 more. This is the gentleman who has been appointed at £250 a year to do work which another doctor with as good credentials would do for £70. The policy at the moment is that when a county medical officer of health is appointed you immediately have a horde of understrappers and under-officials following him. In the finish you have the position outlined by Deputy Daly last night. A dentist has been appointed for County Cork and by the time he comes around to visit the children some of them will have become fathers. Does the Minister think there is no bottom to the purses of the ratepayers? Deputy Daly last night re-echoed a complaint that I made several times here within the last twelve months.
What was that?
The condition of the trunk roads in Cork County.
Is it that they are too good?
That they are too good, and the policy of the Minister as regards trunk roads is purposely to hold forth bribes to the county councils in order to prevent money being spent on bye-roads. The idea is to divert all the money to the trunk roads. That is the result that Deputy Daly Commented upon last night.
It is not Deputy Daly's result; it is your own conclusion.
I will give you an opportunity. Very seldom do you start here, but I am going to hunt you down.
I wish you would start on some constructive line.
This is the direct result of the Minister's policy. The Minister says that if £1,000 is spent on the trunk roads the county council will be refunded 50 per cent. If £1,000 is spent on a bye-road in order to put it in a proper condition so that farmers can drive horses and carts over it, there will be no refund. That is the policy which has left the farmers in the position that they cannot bring their crops to market. I have seen them many times coming back from Cork with a bag of frost nails to scatter on the billiard-table roads constructed under the policy of the Minister, so as to prevent the horse from slipping.
Nobody else except the officials of the Minister's Department and other officials can afford to drive on these roads. I forgot the officials of the Minister for Justice—apparently his tribe have free cars. It is the farming community who have to pay for these roads which they are unable to use. We have officials, some of whom draw £1,500 a year, driving over these roads, although they pay less than £5 a year in rates. The farmer who pays from £15 to £30 a year in rates is unable to drive his horses and cars over the roads owing to the action of the Local Government Department. We are sick of this policy of the Local Government Department. As I have said already, the Department of Local Government and Public Health is the worst managed Department in the whole State.
I do not know whether the Minister looked into the cases that I gave him last night. I spoke here last night because of my anxiety to give the Minister an opportunity of looking into these cases. I am sure he saw these matters already in the public Press or Mr. McCarron drew his attention to them. I want to draw his attention to the manner in which his trade department is carrying out its work. It is about time there was an end to it. If there is any "hobbling" being done in that department, let the Minister get rid of the "hobblers," and the people who are standing over that at present. These people are dragging up all the orders here to Dublin and sharing them out on the "palm-oil" system. I want to know from the Minister why this contractor in Cork who handed in the lowest tender to the trade department was refused the contract, and why that contract was given to a higher tender. I want to get an answer to that from the Minister for Local Government. I want to know from the Minister why samples of clothing sent to the trade department were held here for six months until that material had to be taken into stock by the county board of health, and used there without knowing whether the material was up to sample or not. There is some influence being worked in the trade department in favour of particular contractors. We are sick of this matter. That department is more corrupt than the worst rural council that ever existed. I have already, on three or four occasions, called attention to this matter in this House, and I hope I will not have to call attention to it again. It is time this thing finished up, and it is time the trade department was finished. Recently, this department received a sample from a local board, and they wrote back to that body for the name of the contractor. Is there anything more glaring than that? Is not that a strange proceeding? Is the name of the contractor necessary in order to certify that the cloth is up to the strength required?
Then we have the county medical officers of health. We have the position where a county medical officer of health who has been appointed can afford to spend three days in the week here. What are the children down there, 6,000 or 7,000 of them, doing without inspection by the county medical officer of health? Who is inspecting them in the schools? It is about time that the Minister looked to his Department and said to himself that he would act honourably by the unfortunate ratepayers of whose destinies he is in charge. It is about time that the farming community should get roads over which they can drive their horses and carts to market. When I raised that matter here before, I was told by the Minister that he had a statement from some member of the county council that the farmers were able to bring their produce into the Cork market 50 per cent. cheaper on account of the good roads he has given them. I wonder where the Minister got that statement? I know of no individual in the county council who would make that statement except one—the brother of the Free State Minister at Washington. I do not believe there is another individual in the Cork County Council who would make that statement. Even Deputy John Daly would not make that statement. That condition of affairs must end. The farming community are being squelched out of existence by high rates. Every new, cracked idea here in Dublin is sent down to Cork and hordes of officials sent down with it to put it into operation. But when a loan or grant is required, then we get a long-term loan at 6 per cent. while the bank rate is 3 per cent. If the Minister is not going to change the condition of affairs in his Department, my advice to him is to get out. I gave the same advice to the Minister for Finance the other day. If the Minister is unable to control this horde of officials who are apparently fastening themselves on him, then he had better get out. There is this horde of doctors, veterinary surgeons and the rest of them looking for jobs. They come up here and collect around the door of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health and I am sure they have him plagued out of existence looking for these jobs.
There would be a nurse wanted to help out the doctor and a nurse is immediately appointed. Then the Minister will write down and tell you that £100 is not sufficient salary for a nurse and that she should get £150, despite the fact that there are three or four applicants, with the highest qualifications, willing to take a salary of £100. When a medical officer with the highest qualifications applies for a position at £70 a year the Minister will write saying that the salary for such a responsible position should be £250, and we find some duds who have been appointed by the Commissioners sent down by the Department at £250 a year. It is time for that to end. It is time that the farming community got decent roads on which to drive their carts. If the Minister, when in Cork last week, travelled over some of our bye-roads he would have found them in a worse condition than they were in in 1922 or 1923. The bye-roads are starved in order to provide billiard tables for Rolls-Royces in order that the Minister's officials can drive to Cork or Punchestown or elsewhere. We are sick of that. It is time to end it and, if the Minister does not end it, it is time for him to get out and let somebody in who will end it.
I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the great need of labourers' cottages in rural areas and also to the necessity of giving financial assistance to enable boards of health to build these cottages by having the use of the Local Loans Fund on long-term loans. If one of these cottages becomes vacant in my county the local committee which has been appointed to select a tenant generally has five or six applicants for such cottage, and each of them badly needs it. The difficulty which the committee has is that there is only one house and it can give it to only one applicant. Up to the present in County Meath there have been about 2,800 cottages built under previous Acts and the amount of money allocated has been £466,000. In order to repay interest, sinking found and other outgoings, it requires about £20,000 a year. The receipts from rents are something like £8,700. They leave a charge on the ratepayers of £11,500 a year or something like £4 a house. These houses are let at about 1s. 6d. a week and the ratepayers make up the difference of £4 per house. That is not a great burden, but recently the Meath County Council and the Board of Health considered a scheme for building more cottages, but when the financial aspect was considered it was found impossible to build them. The cost of building each cottage and providing a site would be £350, and, when you deduct the building grant, it would require about £300 for each house. The banks will not lend money except on short-term loans, and if you borrowed that money from the local treasurers the repayment of principal and interest would be between £25 and £30 on each cottage.
I wonder would the Deputy say what the rent would be?
The rent of the 2,800 cottages already built is about 1/6 per week. If a public body builds new cottages it would be very difficult to charge an economic rent. If the repayment of loans is £25 a year on each cottage it would work out at about 10/- a week. I do not see how the board of health, having 2,800 cottages under their control, could charge for new cottages for people in a similar position a rent of more than 2/- a week. That would leave a burden of 8/- a week on the ratepayers or practically £20 for each cottage.
I do not desire to interrupt the Deputy but there is a very important point here. If he says that the rent for labourers' cottages is to be stabilised at a figure which existed prior to 1914 it would be interesting to get some estimate as to the percentage of population in Co. Meath which is to be secured this position, for all time, apparently. That is the position, not only in Meath but elsewhere, and I think that in discussing this matter Deputies ought to address themselves to that point and not to try and avoid it.
I see the Minister's point but you would have to increase the rents of existing tenants. Is it the suggestion of the Minister to put all the tenants on an equal footing, thus increasing the rents of existing tenants, or does he intend to build new houses and charge incoming tenants 7/- or 8/- per week, leaving existing tenants at their present rate of 1/6?
I am making no suggestion but I am asking Deputies to face this particular fact in discussing this matter. This is 1930 and, so far as I understand, there are certain boards of health throughout the country anxious to build cottages. The position exists in Meath but apparently they direct their minds to no other factor in the matter when fixing rents than that a certain number of people are paying a rent of only 1/6 or, as it so happens, an average of 1/3. They cannot take their eyes off the past and look at the building problem of 1930, trying to square the finances of that particular problem in a reasonable kind of way without drawing the past into it. I think the past can only be brought into consideration after the problem has been considered in a detached sort of way. I would like to have the opinion of Deputies as to what the rents labourers in rural districts may be expected to pay for their cottages, and the percentage of population that these labourers represent.
Of course, the principal point I want to make is that it is impossible for local bodies to borrow money from the banks on short-term loans. I would appeal to the Minister to get the Minister for Finance to open the Local Loans Fund, so as to enable boards of health to borrow money on long-term loans. That, to my mind, would greatly decrease the annual cost per house. Another matter to which I wish to call the attention of the Minister is that the principle on which the Road Fund is distributed does not lead to economy. The county councils are told "the more you spend on your trunk and main roads the larger the grant you will get; it is a percentage on that." I know it is difficult to arrive at any other means of working out the distribution to the county councils, but it is a sort of inducement or bribe to the county councils to spend the main portion of their road expenditure on the main and trunk roads, leaving the county roads to do more or less for themselves. If there was any other means of distributing the Road Fund it would lead to more economy.
Yesterday evening Deputy O'Kelly referred to the medical officer for County Meath. I think it would be in better taste perhaps if Deputy O'Kelly confined himself to the medical officers of his own constituency. I think the Meath Board of Health and the people of Meath should be the best judges as to how the duties of the medical officer of health are carried out in Meath. As a matter of fact the board of health consider themselves very lucky in getting the efficient officer that they have.
There are a few matters to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention, the first being in connection with the Housing Bill passed last year. To my mind, some local authorities do not seem to understand the terms of the Bill as it was passed. The section to which I wish to refer is that which provides a grant of £60 per house for local authorities who build a number of houses in urban districts. A further grant of £12 is paid to a local authority if it strikes a rate of 1/- in the £. I have a particular local authority in my mind when I speak on this point which has been misled on this matter. The Minister's Department recently sent down a circular intimating to these bodies that to qualify for the £60 grant for each house the local authority must strike a rate of equal amount—£60 also. That, to my mind, would be a terrible hardship on a number of ratepayers, who are grumbling already that they are not able to pay their rates. I understand that there is a way out of that by which the equal amount to be paid by local authorities can be spread over a number of years. If that is the intention of the Minister I would consider it satisfactory.
There is also a very important matter in connection with the water supply of Mullingar to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention. I understand that some time ago the waterworks committee and the board of health made application to have a new engine supplied. The waterworks were in danger of breaking down as the water had not been filtered. The Committee now want to instal new filter beds. The engine at present has to work twenty-three or twenty-four hours per day to filter the water. I would ask the Minister to give permission to the local body to improve the scheme in Mullingar. I consider that a good supply of water is very necessary and the money spent on that scheme would be very well spent.
There is a further matter which I would also like to bring to the Minister's attention in connection with the auditor sent down from his Department to audit the accounts of the board. I would like to know is it the duty of the auditor to question the wages paid to labourers and the scavenging staff? Is it usual to tell the council that if they pay certain rates they may be surcharged? I do not think that that should be the duty of the auditor. I think the duty of the auditor is to see that the accounts are audited as they are presented to him. The members of the various boards know the wages which they should pay to their employees. The work done by those employees is done satisfactorily, and I do not think it is the auditor's duty to threaten any council that he will surcharge in connection with these matters. I hope the Minister will give these matters his serious consideration.
While I do not agree that the Estimate should be referred back, there are a few matters which I would like to bring under the notice of the Minister. The first thing to which I would like to direct his attention is the matter of housing. I must say that more has been done to remedy this grievance in the constituency from which I come in the past six years than has ever been done before. The 1924 Act provided a free grant of £100. Many people availed of this grant, more especially the farming class and some other individuals. I cannot say in my own constituency, that private individuals made use of it except on very rare occasions. The 1928 Act provided a grant of £75 and many people also availed of that.
A great deal has been done in that district in connection with housing, but much remains to be done. The district is a congested one, and there are a number of houses in it in very bad condition. There are a number of substantial one-storey houses in it built on the old style with stone walls and thatched roofs. If the Minister would introduce a reconstruction clause under which farmers would get £40 or £50 to reconstruct these houses and convert them into two-storey dwellings, they would make suitable and healthy houses. By that means far more could be done to relieve the present congestion in connection with housing than by building new houses.
Another matter I should like to direct attention to is the provision of water supplies and sewerage schemes to small towns. In the County Leitrim, and also, I am sure, in parts of County Sligo, the people are faced with the difficulty that the area of charge for such works is too small. For instance, in Ballinamore a water and sewerage scheme is estimated to cost £14,000, while the valuation of the town is only £1,000. It would be very difficult for the ratepayers to bear such a burden as that, as it would mean an enormous rate. The Minister should do something by way of grants or otherwise to enable such schemes to be carried out. Other towns in the county, such as Mohill, Manorhamilton, etc., have no water supply or sewerage. Something, therefore, should be done to help congested areas in this direction.
In the matter of roads, the County Council does not seem to think that the county is fairly treated by the way in which the grants are allocated to Leitrim. I think we are fairly well treated, but if the Minister would take into consideration the valuation of County Leitrim and the large mileage of roads to be looked after, I think he will see that when making his allocation he should increase the grants to Leitrim.
I have a rather important matter to raise which I would respectfully ask the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to take a note of. We are asked to pass a certain amount of money for local government administration, and we want at least to see a return for the money. We want the Department to fulfil its obligations to the community. I have correspondence here from a board of health, and for obvious reasons I do not purpose to give the name of the district or the names of the medical officers mentioned. I consider the case so serious that I shall not even mention the name of the county, lest there might be a panic created amongst the people resident in the district where this grave state of affairs exists. With your permission, sir, I shall read the correspondence. It refers to public health, but the Department of Agriculture, of course, comes into the limelight also.
Has the Minister received a copy of the correspondence?
Mr. Jordan
I could not say that he has.
It is too important to give it to the Minister.
Mr. Jordan
I shall pass on the correspondence to the Minister. The board of health, at their meeting on the 30th ult., had before them a report from the county medical officer of health, dated 11th ult., referring to the cattle for milking purposes on the farm of the Department of Agriculture in a certain town.
Is there any letter in this particular correspondence from the Department of Local Government and Public Health?
Mr. Jordan
No, but I am assuming that the board of health have sent their minutes to the Local Government Department.
It is quite impossible for the Chair to know all these ramifications between the board of health, the Local Government Department and the Department of Agriculture. Is there any value in reading correspondence here for the purpose of getting a Ministerial reply if the Minister has not seen the correspondence? If no part of the correspondence does in fact come within the Minister's Department, how can the Minister give any reply? It is very difficult to get a Ministerial reply or explanation if the Deputy gives correspondence in which the Minister does not figure, using the word "Minister" in the sense of the Minister's Department.
This is a matter of serious importance to public health, and I think it is only right that it should be ventilated in the presence of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health.
If the matter is important from the point of view of the general public and the Department of Public Health, is there no better way of approaching the Minister for Local Government and Public Health in a matter that the Deputy says is so serious than by letting the Minister hear of it for the first time on the Estimate? It only shows the attitude taken towards important matters by the Deputy.
Deputy Jordan just now spoke to me of this matter and asked my advice. He told me that copies of the correspondence had been sent to every T.D. for that particular area and that a resolution dealing with the matter was published in the public Press a fortnight ago, so that notice in that way has been given to the public about the matter. I thought, therefore, that it was quite in order for him to deal with the matter now. If the matter has appeared in the public Press, and if every T.D. representing the district has got a copy of the correspondence, I think no difficulty should arise about raising the matter now, as in that way the Department concerned certainly must have had its attention called to it.
The medical officer states in his letter to the board of health that the correspondence was not to be given to the Press, and the only Department written to was the Department of Agriculture.
From the point of view of the Chair, the question first arises—is the Minister for Local Government and Public Health responsible in any way for these facts, whatever the facts may be? If he is, the matter is in order. From the point of view, however, of doing any practical good, it is clear that even if a Minister is responsible for a particular matter, if it is raised on his Estimate without his having had any previous notice of it, and without his Department having any official information about it by way of correspondence, then no good can be done. There is no doubt about that. In this case there is the preliminary point that apparently the Department of Local Government and Public Health is not responsible. Of course I know nothing about that, except what the Deputy told me.
I submit that the Minister is responsible, as he is responsible for public health, and this raises a grave question in connection with public health.
That is why the consideration of the question must be approached in such a futile way.
I submit that if under the Dairy and Cowsheds Acts there is a veterinary inspector employed in this particular county the Minister for Local Government and Public Health is directly responsible for this matter.
The mere statement that the matter concerns public health does not make the Minister responsible. The Minister's responsibility is not a vague responsibility for public health in the country. The Minister's responsibility to the House is a responsibility for matters imposed on him by statute in connection with local government and public health. What I want to get from Deputy Jordan is this: Is any part of this correspondence with the Department of Public Health, or is there any reply from the Department in it?
Mr. Jordan
I do not think there is mention of the Department of Public Health in the correspondence, but the letter is headed "Public Health." The Minister is not mentioned, I admit that, but it is a matter of grave importance in connection with public health, and I submit that this is the proper place to raise it, with all due respect. The point was raised by Deputy Brodrick that the correspondence was confidential. The report dated 11/4/'30 was marked "confidential," but that was addressed to the secretary of the board of health, and the board met since then, and they publicly passed a resolution in regard to this matter, so there is nothing confidential about it now.
The Ceann Comhairle has no concern as to whether the correspondence is confidential or not, or whether it concerns the Minister for Local Government and Public Health or not. If the Minister has had no notice from Deputy Jordan that he intended to raise this matter, and if his Department has had no correspondence from the board of public health then there would appear to be no value whatever in raising the matter on this particular Estimate—none at all. If the matter is of importance, and if it does really concern the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, an occasion could be found for raising it again.
May I submit this point? I understood from Deputy Jordan that this particular matter came up at a meeting of the board of health. One of the duties of boards of health in Ireland is to administer the Dairy and Cowshed Act. It is the duty of their officers to see that it is properly administered, and the Department of Local Government and Public Health have constantly stated how the Act is to be administered, and consequently if a case comes up before the local board of health, as Deputy Jordan said this case did, it must have come before the Minister, and, therefore, there is nothing vague about it. The Department have been very particular about it in every county.
The Deputy can raise it in the House at any time, but to submit, by way of a point of order, that the Ceann Comhairle, who has not read the correspondence, can rule whether that correspondence is in order or not is manifestly an impossible situation from the point of view of the Chair. Deputy Jordan has referred to correspondence, some of which concerns the Department of Agriculture. I do not think he should read any correspondence of which he has not given the Minister notice. No good purpose can be served by reading correspondence now of which the Minister has had no notice, and of which, presumably, he can take no notice unless in so far as he is forced to do so.
Mr. Jordan
Is it your ruling. A Chinn Comhairle, that I am not to be allowed to read the correspondence?
Yes.
Mr. Jordan
Very well. I suppose I can refer to it. In this particular county there is a county medical officer of health and he went to the agricultural station in the county on 11/4th on the report of the local medical officer of the district. He inspected the cattle kept there for milking purposes and supplying milk to the neighbouring town. There are 28 milch cows on this particular station, and the official veterinary inspector reported that, out of the 28, eight of those cows reacted to the tuberculin test. When this county medical officer of health went to this place he found that the eight cows were isolated from the other 20, but the milk of these eight cows was sent, with the milk of the other 20, into the town regularly for consumption, and is being sent still for consumption amongst the people and for consumption in every sense of the word. On 11/4th this officer wrote to the secretary of the board of public health in this county, and he also wrote to the Department of Agriculture, and that Department evidently took no steps to discuss with the Department of Local Government and Public Health as to what ought to be done, and since the 11th April nothing has been done. These cattle are there still; their milk is being consumed by the people and the Department of Agriculture has not even acknowledged the letter of the county medical officer of health.
Has not the Deputy now proved where this matter ought to be raised? Is it not clear to him now that it ought to be raised on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture? The Deputy has not brought anything home to the Department of Local Government. Is it not clear to him now?
Mr. Jordan
It might be. But what I would like to know is, that with such a state of affairs existing, with the health of the community in this particular district in danger to such an extent, whether the Minister for Local Government and Public Health would see that this state of affairs is not allowed to continue, and that the Department of Agriculture should be made to do its duty and that those cattle should not be kept there as a danger to the health of the community?
Would the Deputy undertake to try and help that in dealing with this matter with the Galway County Council we should not have all the trouble we have had to get them to appoint a county medical officer of health?
Mr. Jordan
I beg the Minister's pardon. I ask the House did I mention the County Galway? How does the Minister know it is Galway?
I am speaking of public health generally. This affair probably is not in the County Galway but there may be conditions quite as bad in County Galway that it will require a county medical officer of health to disclose.
Have you another doctor for the job?
Mr. Jordan
The Minister raised the question that Galway County Council gave a lot of bother over the county medical officer of health, assuming that I was speaking of Galway. It might have been Longford or Westmeath that I was talking about for all he knows.
I rise with great pleasure to support the Estimate for the Department of Local Government and Public Health. I consider that at this stage the opposition should be withdrawn to the Vote because it is one of the most important that comes up before this House. If Deputies hold up this Vote they hold up matters of housing and sanitation, and they hold up a thousand and one other activities that are affected by the Department of Local Government. I should certainly be surprised if Deputy Corish was to go into the Lobby against this Estimate. The workers up and down the country look to the Department of Local Government as one of the most important in the State. It affects such matters as housing, and there is no party in this House during the debate on this Estimate that did not cry out for more houses. I join in that also, but we must be satisfied to have them in instalments. For the past two and a half years I have had the honour of being a member of this Dáil, and I must say that the Department of Local Government and Public Health are doing great and excellent work from year to year. I beg to thank the Minister for his visit to the most southern part of the Twenty-Six Counties, the Barony of Beare. In Castletownberehaven the Minister turned up quite unexpectedly. Deputies opposite may sneer, but the Minister, in his trips to the south, did not confine them to the City of Cork; he visited several other districts, that it is his duty and his province to do.
I make no appeal here to-day to Deputy O'Kelly to withdraw his opposition to this Vote, because I know he will not, but I would be surprised to think that the Labour Party would join with him in an attempt to obstruct the Government in all their Estimates. There is one particular matter which struck me with regard to the position, and it is this, that on the Vote for the Budget, which affects this because there is money in it, I was astonished and pained to find the Labour Party voting with the Fianna Fáil Party against the motion of the Minister for Finance.
Let us go back to local government.
Mr. T. Sheehy
I will. I am grateful for the visit to my constituency, and I hope it will not be the last. It was not on my invitation that he went there. He went there from his sense of public duty.
The people of Castletownberehaven for many years have not had an hospital. They have had to convey the poor 60 miles to the Clonakilty Home. The Minister saw, after representations from the board of health and assistance in the county, that their claim was well founded. We are very greatful to him for his visit and sincerely hope it will bear fruit. I also wish to say on behalf of the residents of Clonakilty and Skibbereen that they are under an obligation to the Local Government Department. They were in bad need of hospital accommodation. Thank God, there are two hospitals opening within the next fortnight, one in Skibbereen and another in Clonakilty. That shows we are not inactive or that the Local Government Department are not dead to what we require. If there are Deputies who are asleep to the interests of their constituents, we are not asleep in West Cork. We put up an unanswerable case to the Government. Therefore the Government, as far as I am concerned, has my utmost support and confidence.
I appeal to the Labour Party, for which I have great respect, to stick to their professions. They stated that the Opposition was not fish, flesh or good red herring. I endorse that. I endorse Deputy O'Connell's verdict on that, and I say to the Labour Party, "let them throw in their weight with us, we are all workers." I was on Labour platforms before half of the Labour Party were born. I realise that if they are doing work for Labour their duty is to stand by the Government, who are endeavouring to benefit all classes in the Saorstát. We are not here to stand for any particular section. We stand for every section, for the farm labourer, the shop-keeper and the artisan. So long as the Government stands by Deputies, so long should Deputies stand by them.
The Deputy has lost local government again.
Mr. Sheehy
I will come back to local government. With regard to home assistance, we have got the greatest latitude from the General. I remember two years ago in this House he announced over and over again that the relieving officers of the 26 counties should not wait for meetings of boards of health and assistance to relieve cases of want or destitution in their districts, but that they should instantly, on their own initiative, go and relieve them. All honour to the medical officers of the West Cork constituency who in the discharge of their duty to the poor sent on their dockets to the relieving officers to help the sick and infirm. I pay that tribute to them, and I pay the tribute to the Government that will not curtail our activities in that respect. Within the last three months the West Cork Board of Health advanced nearly £1,000 in home assistance. We were not condemned by the ratepayers of West Cork for doing so. Rather they applauded us for standing by our poor, and never at any time did the Local Government send down any message to us that we were exceeding the limit.
There is one other section in the House that I have the greatest respect for, and that is the Independent members, because they had the courage of their convictions, and they came into this Dáil with the tri-colour wrapped around them. Deputies across the way were sneering at the thought that we had captured Trinity College. We have captured Trinity College. Never in my life did I expect three members to be returned for Trinity to stand for Ireland.
All that one could say on this Estimate and the amendment to refer it back at this stage must be more or less recapitulation, but there are some aspects of local government and public health of such importance that the oftener they are mentioned in the presence of the Minister the better. I dealt with public health from the viewpoint of water, sewerage schemes and sanitary schemes in the Estimate for the past two years. Last year and the year before that I advocated that water and sewerage schemes in inland towns in the country should be made a national charge, and until, in my opinion, that is done, we will not make any advance in that direction. As every member of the Dáil knows, the great difficulty about getting any scheme through in an inland town in the country is the area of charge. A scheme is often prepared by an engineer at enormous cost. It is submitted to the board of health. The board of health approves of the scheme provided the town in question pays for it. Deputy Reynolds pointed out that that is an impossibility in the case of small towns, and once a move is made to extend the area of charge, an agitation is immediately started and the scheme drops because there is too much opposition to it.
Some few years ago the Local Government Department came forward with a scheme for trunk roads. They spent a couple of million pounds on the trunk roads of this country. That was at the time an admirable thing to do. It undoubtedly helped the tourist traffic in the country. I submit that what was done for trunk roads could be done for ordinary public health services in the Saorstát. They are at least of equal importance to the roads. Now we have come to the stage when we are going to have several small towns in the country lighted by the Shannon scheme. We are going to have tourists coming in because there are good roads, and we are going to have them viewing our towns, which are brilliantly illuminated by electricity from the Shannon. But when the tourists come to stop at these towns they will have no sanitary accommodation whatever. I submit all our efforts are a farce until we tackle these schemes and until the Minister makes all sanitation schemes a national charge. That is the first and most important thing to my mind which the Department should tackle. No improvement has been made since this time twelve-months. Not one single scheme I know has been carried through in the province of Connaught for the last twelve months. That is why I will vote to have this Estimate referred back and why I will go on voting every year to have it referred back until some improvement is made.
The second point I am going to mention has been mentioned by other speakers, that is reconstruction grants for people in rural areas. The people in rural areas have never got a chance to improve their holdings because such grants are not available. I suggest to the Minister the next time he is contemplating it that he should include reconstruction grants for rural areas in the country. People should not receive grants for houses who are able to put up houses without the grants. The grants, because they are so limited, should be made available only to the needy and those who cannot build without them.
A problem that is becoming one of vast magnitude—everybody must admit, though we do not like to admit it—in the country, and one that must be tackled strenuously is the question of unmarried mothers. This problem is becoming increasingly difficult day by day, and it must be tackled strenuously sooner or later. In most of the county homes at the present time accommodation is so limited that these unfortunate girls are sent out with their babies to make room for others. One can easily imagine the mentality of a girl going out a fortnight after her confinement with her baby. She has no home to go to in many instances, while in other cases she has a home that she dare not go to. It is a terrible thing to send her out on the road until some confidence is re-established in her. What I would suggest is that there should be in each province a home where these girls could find shelter for at least 12 months or two years, until they are in a position to face the world fearlessly, and until they are in a position to feel confidence in themselves again. They are a class of the community that are deserving of more sympathy than they get. Unless we have some kind of a special home for them, I fear that the problem will be always with us.
I would like to say a word or two on the hospitals throughout the country. I have mentioned previously and repeat it now, that the hospital in any county in the Saorstát should be a distinct and separate institution from the county home. The ordinary people who have to find shelter in the county home through economic reasons, should not be accommodated in the same building as the person who has to go there because of illness. In many counties we have what we might call the medical and fever portions of the county hospitals in the same building as the county home. That should not be. There should be a separate hospital. In some counties, of course, we have such an hospital, and in that separate hospital we will never have efficiency, we will never give the poor people the value that they should get until we have a resident physician and a resident house surgeon. We will never get proper value for the money spent on these hospitals until that position is brought about. The medical officer of health has to be away through his district on cases, and things cannot be looked after properly in his absence without a properly qualified house surgeon and physician.
In most of the county homes at the present time they will not receive an imbecile. They will not receive a person who might be described as an idiot. The local medical officer of health cannot send an imbecile or idiot to the county home because the county home will not receive them and he cannot send him to the asylum because he cannot certify him as insane. I would ask the Minister if he has any intention of making any provision for these people. Take the case of the ordinary child who, through no fault of his or her own, never grows to maturity. He or she will never have what I might call proper sense and he or she must remain at his or her father's fireside as long as he lives because there is no place in which they can get treatment.
I would like to point out that in the asylums at the present time no effort whatever is made to segregate the different types of lunatics. You have homicidal, suicidal, and all the other various types of lunatics herded together and no attempt whatever is made to isolate them. Anybody who knows anything about insanity must know that no improvement can be made in most of these cases until some attempt is made to isolate them. Until they are segregated into the various different types no proper attempt can be made to treat and cure them. The asylums are costing the country an enormous sum, and they will continue to cost an enormous sum until some attempt is made to reduce the number of inmates. The most logical way to reduce the number of inmates is to treat and cure as many as possible and send them out. I hope some attempt will be made in the coming year to do this in some of the asylums throughout the country.
I am very glad that an improvement is shown in the number of county medical officers of health that have been appointed since this time twelve months. There are still some counties that have not got a county medical officer of health, and I hope that they will be appointed as soon as possible. To my mind, the position of county medical officer of health will simply and solely be a sinecure so long as he has not got mandatory power to carry his recommendations into effect. A county medical officer of health may make a recommendation to the local board of health. That recommendation has probably been made time and again by the local dispensary doctor and ignored. Until the county medical officer of health has mandatory powers he might as well remain in the Local Government Department or somewhere else because the local boards of health will not carry out his recommendations, especially in the matter of water and sewerage schemes, unless they are compelled to do so. Until something is done to assist the county medical officer of health by giving him power practically to compel the local authorities to give effect to his recommendations his position will certainly not be an envious one.
Some time ago I asked the Minister a question as to why some drugs and instruments are not included in the list supplied to the dispensaries. One of the drugs I mentioned was pituitrin. I was astounded to hear the Minister say that it was not included because it was a dangerous drug in the hands of unskilled people. I would ask the Minister if he meant by that any reflection on the dispensary services of the country, because the only person who can order that drug is the dispensary doctor. Surely he cannot say that the ordinary medical officers throughout the country are too unskilled to use pituitrin. The only people who will use it are the people who order it, that is, the local dispensary doctors. He also said that it could be ordered on the special list. We know that it can be ordered on the special list, but it is a drug of such importance, and one that is in daily use in every district in the country, that there is no reason why it should not be on the ordinary list. It is used as a routine in obstetric practice throughout the country and it is far more important, to my mind, than 25 or 30 per cent. of the drugs on the list.
I was also told by the Minister in that reply that cases requiring the use of the sphygmomanometer should be referred to the county hospital. If I was taught correctly as a student in the National University, the sphygmomanometer is simply only to diagnose, and he would be a very good dispensary doctor indeed who could tell when a patient entered his dispensary if he was a case for the use of the sphygmomanometer. It is only an aid to diagnosis. The dispensary doctor has been attacked time and again from various parts of the House. We were told that a dispensary doctor oftentimes did not go to the trouble of examining the patient; but, as I have pointed out, the dispensary doctor is often prevented from diagnosing what is wrong with the patient because he has not the means of doing so. He would be very prophetic and he would be something out of the ordinary if he could diagnose that a man had very high blood pressure and that he should send him for appropriate treatment if he had not the means to do so. High blood pressure is a common thing, I suppose very common even among members of the Dáil.
There are many members of the Dáil who are very interested in these sphygmomanometers and the rest of it, and many of them seem to be very intimate with their use. Members of the Dáil could use the sphygmomanometer as an aid to diagnosis in the case of themselves, because it is very important to diagnose high blood pressure early, and surely there should be the means of diagnosing it in the case of ordinary poor people. It might save them from early graves, or from strokes of paralysis in later years, but because it costs a few pounds—that is the only reason that I can see—the sphygmomanometer is not on the list. I certainly say that it should be put on the list. Cases requiring its use should be referred to the hospitals? Yes, certainly after it has been used. I hope that in the list in the coming twelve months these drugs and this instrument will be included, because they are very important. So far I am glad to say that the people have not been deprived of their use from the fact that they were not on the list, because I do not know of any man in practice in any part of Ireland who would not have that instrument at his dispensary, if necessary at his own expense. But the instrument is necessary; it should be included at the public expense, and be available for the poor, because they are entitled to it.
There are one or two matters that I wish to bring before the Minister. A very wide field has been covered in the discussion of this Estimate, and so many things with which I sympathise, have been so very well discussed by Deputies on every side of the House that it is not necessary for me to reiterate them. I entirely agree with what Deputy Shaw said, that now that money is at a low price this is a good time to build houses in the rural districts, where they are very much required, and also to enlarge existing houses. I think no one can see much of the back streets of some country towns without being aware of the fact that there is frightful overcrowding in them, and this is a matter of urgent public importance. Now that money is available and can be got at a reasonable price, I hope something will be done in that direction. For a very long time my own county was very forward in matters of building. A good many schemes were started and many houses were built, but I observe lately, from the list which the Minister read, that they are rather falling behind. I would like to see them going forward again in the matter of building. Sewerage and water supplies are absolutely necessary in many parts of the country. There are some anomalous cases where there are elaborate sewerage schemes, and no water at all, and other places where there are excellent water supplies and no sewerage. It seems to me that the time has arrived when such matters as these ought to be set right, particularly when a favourable opportunity is offered now owing to the price of money.
A matter I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister is one that has already been referred to by Deputy Corish—the fact that in many cases the hospitals as at present situated are very inconvenient and that in some places auxiliary hospitals are necessary. The Minister is aware that the people of Athy have been most anxious for a long time to have an auxiliary hospital. Athy is twenty-five miles from Naas, and that is a very long way to send a patient. The Minister has been very sympathetic, but the matter has been going on for a very long time, there have been great difficulties in the way, and the people are naturally getting very impatient about the long delay in the reopening of this hospital. If the Minister could see his way to hurry it up it would be very much appreciated, and I am sure he will use his benign influence to forward this desirable matter to a conclusion.
There is another matter that I want to bring to the Minister's attention. In most counties very inadequate provision is made by local authorities for the saving of life and property from fire. Fires have occurred in many districts, and there is no proper fire apparatus; there is nothing but antiquated things, which are perfectly useless in these days to extinguish a fire. I refer especially to the case of hospitals. They are more or less all built on the one plan. When I had anything to do with local affairs, which is now some years ago, I brought forward the matter of the danger that there was, in a hospital with which I was very intimately acquainted, in case of fire, and I called attention to the difficulty of removing the patients. A scheme was brought forward at that time—about nine or ten years ago—but I do not think anything has been done about it. But the danger is a very real one, and it is an urgent thing. A fire may not occur—I hope it never will—but if it did it would be an awful and an appalling matter. I had it in my mind for a long time to mention this and to see if something could not be done to induce the local authorities to take some steps, because this is an important matter, not only for the county homes, but for the towns and places in the neighbourhood. It is everybody's concern, and it is so much everybody's concern that nobody takes any trouble about it.