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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Jun 1932

Vol. 42 No. 7

Eucharistic Congress (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1932—Second and Final Stages.

I move:—

"That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Bill is intended to make provision for a period of from ten to twelve days during the present month when the Congress will be held in this city. As Deputies will have observed, the Bill deals with certain matters coming under the Department of Local Government, some which ordinarily come under the Department of Finance, and there are, I think, three or perhaps four sections which come under the Department of Justice. This is, as the Title states, a Miscellaneous Provisions Bill. There is really no principle running through it unless one may say that there is the principle of affording special and unusual facilities to our own citizens and to visitors from outside during this period. It would, I think, be easy to make a case for the granting of special facilities for that period.

But so far as the views of various sections of the community have reached me it seems rather unnecessary to labour a case for the granting of special facilities. It is, if not generally conceded, at least conceded by an overwhelming majority, apparently, of our citizens, that special facilities are necessary for this Congress period. For that reason, and for the reason that I propose to ask the House to take the remaining stages of the Bill to-day, perhaps, I should ask your indulgence, sir, to make what is really a Committee Stage speech—that is I will just deal shortly with the various provisions of the Bill rather than put forward arguments as to why the ordinary law should be departed from during this period of about 12 days.

As Deputies will observe, Section 1 of the Bill is, of course, a defining section. I think we need not trouble to take very much time over it. Section 2 of the Bill empowers the Revenue Commissioners to allow into the Irish Free State, free of customs duty, a motor 'bus imported by a resident of the Irish Free State if it can be shown that it will only be used here during the Congress period and then exported. The conditions under which this concession will be given will be prescribed by the Revenue Commissioners and will be designed to protect the revenue against any attempt to make a fraudulent use of any concession given under this section. I might add that an Order has been made by the Minister for Finance giving a somewhat similar concession to motor cars and motor omnibuses imported for the same purpose by persons not resident in the Irish Free State.

Section 3 to 7 deal, or are intended to deal, with the traffic and transport problem during the Congress period. There will be, if anything like the anticipated numbers visit the city, undoubtedly a problem in connection with traffic and transport. It seems desirable, and the only practical way, that some persons should get almost autocratic authority for transport and traffic in this city during that period. It is proposed by the Bill to give that measure of control to the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána. Probably there will not be any exception taken to that.

Section 3 enables the Commissioner to make such regulations as he thinks necessary for the control of traffic. There will be the difficulty of supplying adequate transport for visitors, and in order to meet that difficulty Clause 4 has been inserted in this Bill. Deputies will observe that by virtue of Clause 4 the Minister for Local Government and Public Health may authorise the use of vehicles which have not been licensed—that is during this period of 12 days.

The importation of a large number of vehicles is, it is understood, in contemplation, and it is considered that it would not be possible to insist on their taking out ordinary road tax licences.

Section 5 deals with the registration of public service vehicles. It is felt that during this period it would not be possible to enforce the ordinary law relating to the registration of public service vehicles.

Section 6 gives the Minister for Local Government and Public Health power to authorise persons to drive motor vehicles notwithstanding the fact that they may not have driving licences. This again, it is understood, is intended to meet the case of persons from abroad. It is thought that difficulty would be found in enforcing the ordinary law. Of course, as will be seen, anyone who has been disqualified from a driving licence is excepted from any benefit conferred by this Clause 6.

Clause 7 makes a similar provision for the drivers and conductors of public service vehicles. It will be seen that the general idea of the sections is to empower the Minister for Local Government and Public Health and the police to deal with any situation that is likely to arise during this period of congestion.

Section 8 has to do with the licensing hours. It has been conceded by practically everyone who has taken an interest in the subject that the existing licensing hours may not be suitable for the large crowds that are expected here in Dublin and the area immediately surrounding Dublin during this Congress Week. It was thought at one time that the Bill might contain specific provisions in giving concessions, but it was felt, after a good deal of inquiry, that it was very difficult, if not impossible, to say in advance exactly what facilities might be necessary. Accordingly, under Section 8, a very wide discretion has been given to the Circuit Judge. The Circuit Judge may fix different hours for different parts of the area affected by the Congress. Some point may be raised in reference to what is ordinarily called the split hour.

It would obviously be undesirable in a Bill of this kind to enter into any discussion of the merits or demerits of the split hour. But it is thought it would be desirable that an officer of the police—a chief superintendent— should suggest to the judge that he ought to make an order permitting licensed houses to be open in the county borough of Dublin between 2.30 and 3.30 in the afternoon. Residents here in Dublin are familiar with the law, but visitors cannot be expected to know what the position is, and they may be seriously inconvenienced by finding licensed houses closed between 2.30 and 3.30 in the afternoon. An extra hour or possibly two hours in the afternoon might also be granted. The Bill, of course, does not propose to grant this to any licensee; it is entirely at the discretion of the Circuit Judge whether he will grant such concessions.

Section 9 deals with exemption orders. It has been suggested that large numbers of people coming here for the Congress may live in hotels in the suburbs, and in Greystones, Malahide and Howth, it will be necessary to make arrangements for additional facilities. The section gives power to the Circuit Court Judge to grant an exemption order to any hotel within twenty miles distance of Dublin. It is an arbitrary radius, but it is felt that in fixing a radius like that it is likely to meet all reasonable requirements during the period.

Section 10 has to do with catering. It is contemplated that catering centres will be established in various parts of the city and surroundings, to supply meals to people who cannot obtain food in their lodgings and for whom existing restaurant facilities may not be sufficient. Under the section licences may be granted by the Circuit Judge for such centres. Under the ordinary law, as I explained recently, in reference to the Cork Fair, occasional licences were granted only for three days at a time and may not extend to Sundays. These restrictions, under the present Bill, are removed during the Congress period, but the Circuit Judge can attach any provision he deems proper to the granting of occasional licences. For instance when granting an occasional licence he might make it a condition that a substantial meal should be supplied with the drink, but there it is a matter entirely for the Circuit Judge who will consider the circumstances of each applicant and district.

Section 11 deals with ships which may be moored in Dublin Bay during Congress week. They will, as has been stated in the papers, be large floating hotels accommodating many foreign visitors who will attend during the period. The section is intended to regularise the supply of intoxicating liquor in vessels moored in the Bay. There is already provision as to the granting of licences to passenger vessels, such as tenders, that will go backwards and forwards between the liners and the quays.

Section 12 has to do with the courts. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney put a question on that subject but I think he was not present when I answered. My answer was to the effect that we are meeting the point that was raised by the Deputy in this clause in the Bill. I stated in that answer that the relevant provisions would be found in clause 12 of the Bill; that is the clause I am now referring to. As will be seen, the effect of clause 12 is to make the days of the Congress period what I might call dies non. Of course a rule of court could not possibly effect that or affect statutory periods of limitation, for instance, or any period prescribed by statute although it might authorise a variation. I felt the rules of court were not sufficient to meet the contingency which might easily arise such as I explained already if the statutory period of renewal expired during the twelve days of the proposed period. I think Section 12 is wide enough and comprehensive enough in its terms to meet every contingency that is likely to arise during this period. Having now dealt with the various clauses of the Bill and shown that there is a certain basis for them, I would ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.

I may say, apart from any explanation I have given, that the Bill has been the subject of investigation for a considerable time by a joint departmental committee. While representations from every section of the community may not have been heard I think they have been ascertained and brought to the minds of the members of the departmental committee. The Bill gives effect to these demands so far as they seemed reasonable.

I would like an explanation of Section 2 and 3.

The Deputy will get that on the Committee Stage in a few minutes.

I am greatly disappointed with clauses 8, 9, 10 and 11 of this Bill. Personally I oppose it for all I am worth. I fail to see why there should be an extension to licensed establishments during the Eucharistic Congress. Surely it is not for drink or such like that people will come to the City of Dublin in the course of the next few weeks. I am surprised that the Minister introduced into his Bill clauses 8, 9, 10 and 11 and I ask the House to reject them. I oppose them because I believe it is not for drink people will come to Dublin during Congress week, especially when you will have floating ballrooms in the vessels that you expect the people of Dublin to go out to see. It would only encourage them to get drink. Provision is made for supplying food. With that I quite agree, but there are plenty of things that people could drink with their food besides porter. I see some Deputies laugh and it is no laughing matter at all. If the Government of the country stands for an extension of hours to give more time to people to get drink in the City of Dublin during Congress week, I say it is a public scandal that such a thing should be introduced into this House. With those few words I oppose the Second Reading of this Bill.

So far as the Minister is concerned, I presume he has followed out the line of procedure that was in train at the time of the late administration, and that they did not introduce these four sections just referred to without consultation with those who were in touch with the Congress Committee, as it is called. There is just one other point that I would like to raise, and it is this, that, on the last occasion when there was a very big assemblage of people in the Phoenix Park for the Centenary Celebrations, there was a prohibition against the opening of licensed premises for some hours on the Sunday, and, so far as I have been able to find, there is no corresponding restriction in this Bill. I understood that there was to have been a prohibition against opening during particular hours—during the hours of the procession, but, so far as I can see, there is no provision here for that purpose. Perhaps the Minister would say something on that subject.

I must say that so far as I am concerned I fail to follow Deputy Curran's argument at all. This Eucharistic Congress is a great Catholic Congress. It is not a Mohammedan assembly. I know that Mohammedans prohibit the use of intoxicating liquor, but no branch of the Christian religion, and certainly not Catholicism, prohibits it, and if a very large number of persons come to this city during the Eucharistic week, I cannot see any reason why they should not be able to indulge reasonably in the use of alcoholic liquor.

Are the hours not long enough without extending them?

There are one or two little points which strike me on this matter, but they are not of very much importance. Under Section 11, I see that intoxicating liquor can be served on vessels moored in the harbour of Dublin to persons bona fide residing on these vessels. Since it is only to persons bona fide residing on those vessels, I do not think that Deputy Curran need have any great qualms of conscience about people being brought off shore to drink, I think he said, porter, on these vessels, but I would like to ask the Minister if, for the purposes of the licensing laws, these vessels are to be considered part of the licensing area, so to speak? For instance, will the Guards have any power, if there was any abuse going on in these vessels, to go aboard and search them? I apprehend that they would not. I only saw the Bill this morning, and I have not had much time to look into it, but I am sure that that is a matter which the Minister has considered, and that he will be able to give us information. I presume that the liquor served on these boats will not be subject to excise duty, or to a duty of any kind, they really being part of foreign territory, which is the reason why liners have to lock up their supplies until they are outside territorial waters.

Coming to Section 12, I would like to know from the Minister if his intention is that the courts should be closed, because I think there is rather a general feeling that the courts, and all the offices of the courts, should be closed during Eucharistic Week. This section as I read it, does not effect this purpose. So far as it is concerned, the courts may still be sitting and all the offices, seemingly, must be kept open, because although a person need not avail himself of this particular period for the lodging of papers, there is nothing to prevent a person going in, if he so wishes, and lodging any documents he has to lodge in the office. I would like to get from the Minister if it is the intention that the offices should be closed and the courts not sitting, because I would suggest that the courts ought not to sit during this Eucharistic Week and that all the offices should be completely closed. I do not think Section 12 effects that.

I understand from the general tenour of the Bill that it is intended for ordinary, intelligent, moderate and normal people, and, for that reason, I cannot see the force of the argument that has been raised against the Bill by Deputy Curran. It shows a very reactionary form of ignorance on this matter which I am sorry to see. Of course, there are persons in this country who are against the use of intoxicating drink, and they are quite entitled to that attitude. There are two classes of people who are particularly against it—those who cannot take any drink without making beasts of themselves; who are against it on occasions of this kind, and there are the others whom I would call stone cold, cast-iron reformers, who want to make everyone else like themselves, and who will not look into a barley field for fear somebody would say that they have some connection with drink. I think the Minister is quite right in ignoring the innuendoes of these people. The people who will come up here are not looking for an opportunity for drinking to the extent at which they will be a disgrace to themselves and those around them, and we may take it that people will observe sobriety, especially on the occasion of such national importance as this. The speech of Deputy Curran is a terrible reflection on the race as a whole, because it means that we cannot get an opportunity for having reasonable refreshments without making, as I said before, beasts of ourselves. With regard to another point raised, I would suggest to the Minister that the ordinary opening hours on Sunday, and especially the Sunday of the High Mass in the Phoenix Park, should be moved forward to, say, 4 o'clock. I think the Bill is very necessary, and I am sure there will be no opposition to any of its clauses from any side of the House, except that founded on ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

Might I enquire from the Minister whether he considers it necessary to suspend the Shop Hours Act for the period of the Congress, because I think it would be very regrettable if people were not able to get certain essentials by reason of the fact that such a law is in operation here?

I submit that people who visit this country for the purpose of attending the Eucharistic Congress will be able to satisfy all their needs and requirements under the existing conditions of shop life, unless the Deputy wants to extend the hours.

Some time last year, I think, there was a prosecution against a garage in the centre of Dublin for selling petrol after 1 o'clock on Saturday. It is easy to conceive that motorists from other countries, for whom this Bill is catering, might not realise that there is such an Act in operation here and might find themselves in difficulties as a result. I scarcely think it worth while for Deputy Anthony to find fault with the question.

Deputy Moore raised the whole question of shop life, and he never mentioned the motorist question, in which he is very interested himself, until now.

A very ignorant remark.

Oh, not at all.

I would like to support Deputy Moore's suggestion, which seems to me to be a valuable one. The sun shines so rarely for Dublin shopkeepers that they ought to be allowed to make all the hay they can.

I would like to know what will be the attitude of the Labour Party in this matter—an extension of the shop assistants' hours.

The Deputy has spoken already.

I only wished to ask a question.

Is it not a fact that commercial houses make arrangements between themselves and their employees by giving a day earlier in the week? I do not think we should interfere at all. There has been too much interference with business.

I do not share the apprehensions of Deputy Curran. So far as I have any experience or knowledge of the conduct of licensed premises in the City and County of Dublin, I feel forced to pay a tribute to the publicans generally. Anything I have seen leads me to think that their houses are conducted very well; that they are places of refreshment and not merely for drinking or boozing, even at ordinary times, not to speak of Congress Week. In ordinary times, very many publicans in the city supply sandwiches; some of them supply meals at the counter, and, I think, there are a few who supply even "sit-down" meals, if one desires to avail of them. I think when this Congress period ends that Deputy Curran will have no reason to regret the granting of the concessions. If concessions are withheld from these houses very many people who come to Dublin from the provinces may find themselves on the footpaths on a wet and inclement evening. It is easy to speak of their having other beverages to partake of, and to be able to obtain food in other places, but, of course, the ordinary restaurant and tea house accommodation of this city is designed for the normal needs of the city. I doubt very much if it would cope with the needs of even a fraction of the floating population that we may expect here during the Congress period. Accordingly, I hope the House will accept the provisions in this regard.

Deputy Cosgrave has referred to the clauses to which Deputy Curran objects. It is the fact that save for, I think, the introduction of one subsection in regard to the outlying hotels, the clauses are substantially the same as would have been introduced as a result of the deliberations of the Joint Committee which had commenced sittings under the previous Government. This Committee heard the views of a great many persons interested—in fact, I think everyone really interested —in the holding of the Congress, and the Bill as it stands is not repugnant to the views of any section of those who are concerned in promoting the comfort of people coming to attend the various ceremonies. Deputy Cosgrave referred to the provisions as being somewhat analogous to those in the statute passed for the Centenary Celebrations here, in which there was, as the Deputy stated, a provision against opening during certain hours. The Joint Committee had that present in their minds, and deliberated upon it, and felt that the balance was in favour of the drafting of the Bill as it stands. I have accepted that. I have not attempted to weigh the thing for myself, because I feel that it has been dealt with more satisfactorily by the Committee.

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney inquired if the Guards would have power to go on the liners in Dublin Bay and to search them. I think the Guards will have such power but I doubt very much if it will be necessary to avail of it. The liners that will be moored in the Bay will be in charge of highly responsible officers, and the captain, the officers and the members of the crew are not likely to allow one of these great ships to be turned into a mere drinking saloon. I feel that that is the real safeguard against what Deputy Curran apprehends, but I feel almost sure that the police will have power to enter a ship in the same way as they have power to enter a public-house.

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney asked if the liquors served would be subject to duty. It is not so intended. It is intended that the ships will be treated as, what they really will be, ships on the high seas. I do not think that the Deputy referred to any other part of the Bill with regard to licensing. He referred to clause 12 and asked if it was intended that the Courts shall sit. It is not intended that the Courts shall sit, but there is nothing in the Bill which prohibits a Judge from sitting. I feel that it is not necessary to put that in. I have assumed that it is dies non, and that the Judges will adjourn the Courts. I have very little doubt that the Courts will be adjourned and, on the whole, I feel that it might be better to leave control of the Courts to the Judges.

The Deputy referred to the offices and asked is it intended that the offices shall not be open in the ordinary way. Of course, it may be desirable in the public interest that an office or officer should be available for that period, just as it might be desirable in a certain event that a Judge should be available, and should be able to sit in one of the Courts. Deputy Moore and Deputy MacDermot advocated the suspension of the Shop Hours Act. The suspension of the Shop Hours Act has not been recommended to me by the Committee and I am afraid that nothing said by Deputy Moore or Deputy MacDermot has persuaded me to ask the House at a later stage to accept any amendment of this Bill with a view to suspending the Shop Hours Act. Of course, I am in the hands of the House. I think the other Deputies who spoke merely commented on the Bill, and that I have answered the various queries that were put.

Question put and agreed to.

I suggest that the Minister should take all the Stages now.

With the permission of the House, I shall take the next Stage now.

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance.
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