Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 10 Jun 1932

Vol. 42 No. 8

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 10—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £65,567 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1933, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works. (1 and 2 Will. 4, c. 33, ss. 5 and 6; 5 and 6 Vict., c. 89, ss. 1 and 2; 9 and 10 Vict., c. 86, ss. 2, 7 and 9; 10 Vict., c. 32, s. 3; 33 and 34 Vict., c. 46, s. 42; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 27; 44 and 45 Vict., c. 49, s. 31, etc.)—(Minister for Education).

Mr. M. Conlon

When progress was reported on the last day, I was dealing with a matter of considerable importance to my constituents over a large area, that is, the drainage of the River Suck. I was pointing out that affairs appear to be in a muddle there. My object in mentioning the matter is to endeavour to get the Board of Works, which seems to be the only body that has any connection whatever with a Drainage Board such as this, to take the matter up and endeavour to have it cleared. The history of the matter is that in the year 1925 the state of affairs in connection with the river and its tributaries was very bad. The situation was that the Secretary of the Board endeavoured to get the Board to carry out some works, but they had no money. There was about £5,000 claimed as being due by the occupiers of the land affected, and at the same time there was a large sum of money due in salary to the Secretary. There were also claims by the solicitor to the Board, and, in fact, by some of the men who were working at the sluice gates.

I might explain the position by reference to a letter which I received dated 14th May, 1925, from the Secretary to the drainage board and which stated:—

For the past few years my Board have been unable to do any work of maintenance on the river and its tributaries owing to the refusal or neglect of a large number of the ratepayers to pay the rates. The Board have at present over £5,000 due to them in arrears. Their solicitor is taking proceedings in the District Court for the recovery of this money and it is believed that a large amount of this arrear will be collected in a short time.

That was the position from the point of view of the Secretary to the Drainage Board. The point of view of the occupiers of the land affected was expressed in a letter which was sent to me dated 14th July, 1925, which was as follows:—

We, the undersigned, desire to draw your attention to the grievance of taxpayers on the River Suck. This rate is so high as to leave the land of no value to us. Moreover no work has been done for a number of years but the Board still persists in striking the same high rate. The members elected annually never attend except two or three from Castlerea. This state of affairs has gone on for a number of years and peasant proprietors here will be robbed if they can be forced to pay although receiving no benefit.

At that time, after proceedings were going on for some time, decrees were obtained and an endeavour was made to execute these decrees on the people. The matter was raised in the House and the then Parliamentary Secretary endeavoured to do what he could to settle the matter. Subsequent to that, the work of maintenance was taken on under the 1924 Act and that work was completed in the year 1929. Since 1929 while the secretary has endeavoured to get the Board together, as a matter of fact the Board has practically ceased to act and no maintenance is being carried out. Unless the matter can be brought to a close in a reasonable time the condition of the river and its tributaries will again become very bad. I raise the matter because there seems to be a difficulty there which should be got over before the Charging Order is made and before the responsibility is handed over to the County Councils of Roscommon and Galway. The difficulty is the difficulty which arose in 1925 and which has still to be met. The Secretary still claims that money is due to him and that the occupiers of the land affected owe something over £5,000 whereas the total liabilities would amount to something like £1,000. That is a matter which I think can only be dealt with by some Inspector from the Board of Works.

It seems to be nobody's business at present. The Drainage Board say it is impossible for them to do anything definite. Unless something be done by some person in control, the position will be rather difficult. I would like that the Parliamentary Secretary would take a note of that item and if possible make some arrangement by which the muddle that exists will be cleared up before the matter is handed on to the County Council.

Mr. Flinn

My difficulty is that I do not know exactly what the Deputy wants me to do. He says there is a muddle. What exactly does he want done?

Mr. Conlon

The Board of Works know a good deal about this matter already. They are the only Government Department which would have information in connection with the whole matter. I suggest that some Inspector of the Board of Works would get into touch with the Secretary of the Drainage Board, hold an inquiry and make whatever arrangements are necessary as to the amount that should be levied on the occupiers of the tenanted land in connection with the old debt. I do not know whether anything better than that can be done, because it will be very difficult to get these people to pay. They have to pay a maintenance rate now for work carried out under the 1924 Act. As the period of payment is very short, the amount they have to pay is very high. I think that £1,000 would pay the old debts. Whether there is any better way of getting over the difficulty than getting the occupiers to pay—I am afraid they are not able to do it—is a question I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider. I suggest that he should get somebody connected with his Department to take the matter up with the Secretary of the Board, who has offered assistance. The County Council would, I am afraid, have great difficulty in dealing with the matter.

Mr. Flinn

What I was objecting to was the word "muddle." A problem we can tackle but a muddle is a different thing.

Mr. Conlon

When the matter is gone into, I hope it will cease to be a muddle and become a problem. Another matter which I desire to mention relates to the question of employment and has to do with another river. It is a scheme which involves an expenditure of £14,000 and it is now coming to a head. It is before the occupiers at the moment. They were very anxious to get this work done because a very large area was being flooded. They originally put in a petition in 1925. Owing to various delays —I do not want to go into the cause of them now—the matter only reached a head quite recently. I think there is about £1,500 in the Estimates this year for this work on the Cross River. When the matter is voted on by the occupiers, I would ask, if they accept the scheme, that the Board of Works should move more quickly than has been the case up to the present with a view to getting some of the work done this year.

Another area to which I would like to refer is an area in Roscommon covered by the Lough Gara drainage district. A Board already exists there and some work is being already carried out, but it has been found that to improve the lands affected—there are about 5,000 acres affected in Roscommon and about 500 or 600 acres in Sligo—it would be necessary to extend the area. The removal of a rock in the river between Boyle and Lough Gara, called the Tinnecara Rock, would mean the improvement of the lands over a wide area. A petition was put in under the 1925 Act. There is an advantage in that, because the period of payment by the occupiers will cover 35 years. That matter is also in the hands of the Board of Works for a considerable time. I know that an inspector was in that area at the end of last year and the beginning of this year with a view to ascertaining whether any damage would be done to the town of Boyle through the removal of that rock and the sudden onfall of water from Lough Gara at a time of heavy rainfall. A report must have been made before now to the Board of Works. If such a report has been made, and if full information has been obtained, I should like to see the matter attended to as soon as possible, because the scheme covers a huge area and the people are anxious that something should be done as quickly as possible.

With regard to the general question of drainage, I notice that while a large sum appears in the Estimates each year, very little has been expended under these Acts up to the present. This year the sum estimated is £36,000. It was as high as £50,000 a few years ago, but for a number of years practically nothing was spent under these Acts. I should like if greater attention was paid to this matter by the Board of Works. If the schemes were got through more quickly it would be a great advantage. Some of the schemes I have mentioned have been in hands for six or seven years. I do not say that the Board of Works is to blame for the greater part of the delay, but schemes have not been carried out even where occupiers of the land approved of them. Matters have moved very slowly. I do not say this by way of complaint, but with a view to getting work expedited. I refer particularly to the case of the Cross River, for which a sum has been set aside this year.

Mr. Curran

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if anything can be done by his Department in regard to the fishing pier at Loughshinny. That is a village of about 200 inhabitants who live by the sea. Year in and year out a whole family is wiped out owing to their enterprise in going to sea in dangerous weather, combined with the bad landing place provided there. I am not quite sure if the County Surveyor of Dublin has been with the Parliamentary Secretary in connection with this matter.

I raised the matter at the Dublin County Council, and they gave a small grant every year to try to do something. But I believe it was under the head of the Board of Works, because something was done to it in order to clean it in 1915, and it was the Board of Works did it then. I hope that something will be done now by this House, and that the Board of Works will go on with this. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take a note of it and get the Board of Works to see that what is wrong in this will be remedied, more especially as there is a good deal of unemployment there.

I would like also to refer to the state of the harbour at Balbriggan. The harbour at Balbriggan is run by the Dublin Port and Docks Board. About 1911 the Board of Works were engaged there for thirteen months, and I may say that I myself worked there for the whole period. Again, in 1915 the Board of Works did something there, but the condition of the harbour at the present time is something appalling. A few coal boats came in there last week, and they were held up and unable to leave because of the bank closing in. The Port and Docks Board did nothing to remedy this. If the Parliamentary Secretary ascertains that it is not the duty of the Port and Docks Board, then I ask him to take the matter up himself and see that it will be remedied. The employment that would be given in the carrying out of this work is much needed in the locality. There is a pier at Loughshinny, but it is only a very small pier used for small boats. I know that a number of boats were broken up there last winter, to the great loss of the fishermen. I would like if the Parliamentary Secretary would look into that matter.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

I want to call the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the position generally of drainage in the County Meath. There has been a considerable number of drainage schemes put into operation there, and these schemes have been of considerable advantage to the people there. But when you consider the amount of drainage that has yet to be done, one cannot help complaining that the progress is slow.

That is, of course, a matter for the County Council. Still I take it that the Parliamentary Secretary might be in a position to assist in some way the pushing forward of these drainage schemes and the drainage of those rivers. I might tell the Parliamentary Secretary that though those rivers have been cleaned and drained from time to time, the trouble is that there does not seem to be any outlet provided because the two main arteries, the Boyne and the Blackwater, are still left untouched. There was a deputation here last week on this matter and the question has been raised on many occasions in the House. There seems to be considerable difficulty in settling exactly what would be the cost of these schemes. Last year, again we had a deputation here on the matter and they put the estimate at an extremely high figure. As far as I could gather, one of the reasons for the high estimate was the number of vested interests along the rivers. There were claims for fishery weirs, artificial islands, derelict mills and numerous other claims for compensation. I take it that the present legislation would not empower the Government to deal with most of these old claims, and perhaps it might be necessary to introduce legislation to deal with them. Many of these old mills have not been worked for years and the compensation would be very little.

I feel that the minor drainage schemes cannot be carried out as long as the main rivers, the Boyne and the Blackwater, are as they are. For the past two or three years it has been noticed by everybody along the banks of these rivers that the floods rise very quickly. Of course, they subside as quickly, but there are certain sections of country along those rivers where the land is practically covered for months and the owners suffer a great loss. I know very well that the Parliamentary Secretary will point out that the drainage of those rivers would cost an enormous sum. I would like to know from him how much of the cost would have to go in compensation. I know in one particular case that a gentleman living on the side of the Blackwater erected an artificial island there some thirty or forty years ago. A vested interest has now grown up there and compensation will be sought for that.

Under the present conditions small farmers find it very hard to pay their annuities. Under these circumstances I do not think we should tolerate the present condition of the rivers any longer. Some steps should be taken to remove obstructions there. If it is found that this drainage scheme would be uneconomic and that the farmers themselves would be unable to bear the expense I do not see any reason why a certain amount of the work could not be done by the Board of Works. I know that old trees have fallen into the river, brushwood has grown along the sides and mud-banks are being formed. The removal of these obstructions would free the water-course and allow the smaller streams and rivers to have an outlet. I take it that could be done. There is certainly nothing that I know of to prevent its being done. In both the Boyne and the Blackwater if these obstructions were removed from the rivers a great deal of the present flooding would be prevented and a fall would be provided for the smaller rivers. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would tell us if a scheme of that nature could be put into force or whether the Board of Works would be able to do the whole drainage in a perfect way. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary understands the position in the Blackwater. Part of the County Cavan comes into that scheme and the people of Cavan are anxious that it should be put through. It would reach as far as Navan at the point where the Blackwater joins the Boyne. I do not think there would be any great difficulty from Navan to the sea. In the Boyne itself there is a considerable amount of brushwood, obstructions and fallen trees from Trim to Navan. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would let us know how that could be got over. The removal of those obstacles, fallen trees, under bridges that are already too low, artificial islands and fishery weirs would greatly benefit the people. I do not think it would be necessary to interfere very much with the weirs. There are a number of derelict mills there too, and these now serve no useful purpose. I think we cannot get very good results from the ordinary drainage schemes as long as the two big rivers, the Boyne and the Blackwater, are in their present state. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary when replying to give some indication as to what can be done in the matter of these two rivers.

Mr. Bennett

I would like to endorse what Deputy O'Reilly has said about drainage schemes in general. To my mind, Deputy O'Reilly has put the matter very sensibly when he stated that the minor drainage schemes were in many cases of very little value until the larger rivers were first attended to. I recognise that the Minor Drainage Schemes Act was probably one of the most important Acts passed in connection with the Board of Works. In the county I represent very valuable work has been done under that Act. That Act empowers the County Councils to undertake small drainage schemes. But, as Deputy O'Reilly has pointed out, much of the work that they can do is limited by the condition of the larger rivers.

In my county of Limerick there is a scheme under consideration. It is in connection with the Bilboa and the Mulcair rivers near Cappamore. I quite recognise the difficulty that this particular scheme presents to the Parliamentary Secretary and the Board of Works. In the beginning, a demand was made to relieve the constant flooding of the village of Cappamore. Cappamore is practically situated at the junction of the two rivers, the Bilboa and the Mulcair. For some years past, after any very heavy fall of rain, the village of Cappamore was flooded. That flooding increased as the years went on owing to the accumulation of fallen trees in the river. The village was practically itself flooded after any heavy fall of rain. On one occasion certain old people lost their lives as a result of the flooding. There were considerable reports in the Press some years ago with regard to the position of Cappamore village. A scheme was then presented to the Board of Works. I daresay the matter presents to the Board of Works considerable difficulty inasmuch as in order to relieve the flooding in the village it would be necessary to drain both the Bilboa and the Mulcair rivers. This would bring great relief to the farmers of that district.

I made considerable inquiries and, so far as I could ascertain, there was no machinery by which the County Council, the Board of Works, the Local Government Department or any authority could relieve the flooding at Cappamore. The matter presented itself in a peculiar light to me, because I understood some Department should be responsible for the health, and indeed the lives, of the people. I recognise that some way out of the difficulty should have been found. This matter has gone on for years. Various proposals were submitted, but they fell through. Within the last year a big scheme was initiated. The preliminary work by surveyors and engineers took a considerable time. Some months ago I addressed a question to the head of the Board of Works in the last Government. At that time the scheme was not ready. Later I asked the present Parliamentary Secretary a question on the subject and at that time I was informed the scheme had just been presented and was being considered.

The scheme has now been submitted and it will involve an expenditure of £22,000. It will be necessary for the Department of Finance to contribute 50 per cent. and the County Council 34 per cent. if the scheme is to be economical. That will entail a considerable burden on the ratepayers of the country. The scheme will be largely utilised to relieve the village of Cappamore. Of course it will be of some benefit to the farmers, but on the whole I am inclined to think that the burden on the ratepayers will be a bit too much. I was rather tempted to butt in on the debate last night, but as the Parliamentary Secretary was bombarded from all sides I felt it was not the proper time to intervene.

This scheme to which I have referred is one that will give much employment in an area where there are many unemployed. I suggest some portion of the relief grant might be given towards alleviating the burden on the local people. If portion of the relief grant were given it would help to make the scheme operate at a smaller cost to the ratepayers. Such a concession would be greatly appreciated.

It appeared to some of us that the estimated cost of the scheme was rather high. Our county surveyor, a very competent man, is familiar with drainage works; in fact, the county surveyor of Limerick is an authority on the matter. He suggested that the present scheme will not eventually achieve the purpose for which it is intended and flooding will still continue at certain portions of the river. He made certain suggestions to the county council by way of an expansion or an alteration of the present scheme. Of course he did not criticise adversely the findings of the Board of Works engineers, which were admirable, but I think he did suggest an alternative way which would possibly cheapen the cost of the scheme. I will ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the county surveyor's suggestion and see if there is any possibility of improving the scheme while reducing the cost. I am quite sure the Parliamentary Secretary is sympathetic and I appeal to him to expedite matters so that another summer will not pass before the conditions in this unfortunate village are remedied.

Mr. Brasier

I think the Parliamentary Secretary will realise, judging from the number of Deputies who have drawn his attention to the need for arterial and minor drainage schemes, that there is a very pressing necessity for tightening up legislation in connection with arterial drainage. In the past, works of this kind were carried out by proprietors of adjoining lands. At the present time it is almost impossible to get co-ordination amongst landowners, and there should be some tightening up of legislation which would enable such works to be carried out so that vast areas may be reclaimed which at present are unproductive because they are under water.

The Parliamentary Secretary is familiar with parts of East Cork. In the area where I reside numbers of rivers flow into Ballycotton Bay. It is rather a pity that some of these rivers could not be comprised in one large drainage district. As it is, they would have to be dealt with separately. In the end that would be something of an anomaly, and I will ask the Parliamentary Secretary to investigate this matter. Where there are several minor schemes to be carried out they might be linked together so as to form one large drainage scheme. I think that would be very much to the advantage of the people, and it would benefit the State by saving a tremendous amount of administrative work.

There have been difficulties experienced in the past in connection with various Arterial Drainage Acts. The 1924 Act provided us with a good deal of trouble in County Cork. Several schemes were carried out in West Cork, and the ultimate result was that people practically rebelled against paying annuities owing to the short time given for the repayments and the fact that occupiers were not consulted until the schemes were carried out. They were under the impression that the work was being carried out by means of a free grant until they found themselves billed for a large figure, far in advance of their Land Commission annuities. That difficulty has not been solved yet. I refer to the Ratooragh and Templebryan schemes. They gave a very great setback to arterial drainage in County Cork. I had to submit the Castlemartyr drainage scheme several times before I succeeded in getting it adopted by the County Council.

There is one minor scheme connected with the drainage of the Owenakiltagh River. Two important villages and the lands adjoining are suffering from the serious flooding of this river. There is nothing which will do more to serve the dual purpose of relieving unemployment—if I may refer here to the province of another Department— and carry out great works of reclamation than schemes of this kind. I certainly would respectfully appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to investigate how far the existing method can be improved upon, and also with regard to getting the works carried out by, shall I say, the county surveyors. The Board of Works insist on carrying out arterial drainage. Surveyors are more aware of conditions of labour in their particular district than the engineer of the Board of Works, and are more competent, therefore, to carry out this work. It is better than bringing officials from a long distance and involving more outlay. In consultation with people in other counties I find that they are unanimous that these things can be carried out more cheaply than by these officials, and if this work is left to the local authorities I think it would be to the advantage of the land owners, and to the advantage of the Minister's Department as well.

There is a difficulty in getting co-ordination of work with regard to public buildings in the Courthouse in Cork, where there is a joint ownership between the City and the County. We often have very great difficulty in getting anything like co-ordination of work, and sometimes there is a very prolonged delay before we can get a final settlement between the two local bodies and the responsible authority in the central Government. That is a matter which would require attention from the Parliamentary Secretary to the advantage of the local bodies concerned and also of his Department. I must candidly say that a very high tribute must be paid to this particular Department. They have carried out their work with very great assistance to the country, and it would be a very great loss if their activities were in any way curtailed—in fact, they should be increased. I would also ask the Parliamentary Secretary to expedite the granting of local loans. Public bodies have found their activities held up to a very great degree by the delays in the coming of loans, and if machinery could be adopted to expedite that work it would be a great advantage to us all.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

My incursion into this debate will be very short as there are only one or two points I wish to touch on. I think that this Estimate is really as good an Estimate as could be introduced in view of present circumstances. There is a tremendous amount of drainage work—of arterial drainage work in particular—which needs to be done in this country, but I think it is only sense to recognise that our resources are limited and that the amount of drainage work or general work in one particular year must be limited by the amount of the resources of the country which can be fairly made available through the Board of Works during that particular year. Charges have been made very frequently against the Board of Works that it is a body which advances unduly slowly. I am rather of the opinion that the work of the Board of Works has been going on during the last few years at a rather slow rate, but I do not think the slowness of the work is in any way due to any want of zeal or want of ability or want of driving power on the part of the officials of the Department. The conclusion, certainly, which has been driven into my mind is that the Department is really under-staffed and under-manned and if the work of the Board of Works is to go on with the expedition that we would all like to see, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider if it would not be necessary to increase the personnel of the staff, because, unquestionably, the rate of progress is not the rate of progress which the country expects. That, as I say, is not due to any want of ability or to shirking of work on the part of the officials of the Department. I myself have been very interested for some years past in the drainage of a river—the river Robe in County Mayo. I have gone into the matter of the drainage of that river on a great number of occasions and I have seen the very great difficulties which the Board of Works have had to surmount. This year there is not even the necessary sum to enable the drainage of that river to be carried out. When the people of a district know that a thing has been under consideration for three or four years, they get very impatient. The man in the street does not see the difficulties which the Board of Works has got to encounter and begins to think that the work has been entirely neglected or is not being attended to. He does not recognise that the officials are proceeding as fast as they can.

I suggest that by increasing the number of the staff—of the outdoor staff especially—of the Department the work could be got over very much more quickly and would add to the confidence of the public in the efficiency of the Board of Works. The Parliamentary Secretary I am sure is aware that that Department has been very often criticised in this House. Now that he has an opportunity of getting in touch with the Department and seeing things for himself, I think he sees that a great deal of that criticism is not well-founded and that the delays have been due to the fact that the outdoor staff is not large enough. This is a year in which money that can be distributed profitably should be expended, and in order that various drainage schemes may be effected this year we should allow for an increase in the Estimates for next year so that the works provided for in the Estimates for this year should be carried out this year. I venture to think that he will find an increase of staff is necessary and if so there ought to be such an increase so that in this particular year, in which the agricultural population are crying out for assistance, every work which is possible under this Estimate should be carried out.

I turn to another branch of the Estimates and there the same consideration applies. That is, the sum available here for housing accommodation for the Civic Guard. Undoubtedly— and I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary, now that he has an opportunity of seeing into it—will agree that in a very considerable number of stations in this State at the present minute the Guards are occupying premises that are really hardly fit for human occupation at all. As a matter of fact it was necessary to close down some barracks in an area or two, where there ought to have been Guards, simply because the premises available were not suitable for human beings to live in. There are a considerable number, of course, of more pressing cases in this Estimate. But there are a great number of, what I might call, urgent cases not in this Estimate at all. It is only the ones that are really pressing, and that must be dealt with, that are in this Estimate. I should like if the Parliamentary Secretary could give us an undertaking—of course, it would be tentative—something of this nature, that he would do his best, to see that part of this Estimate to be expended this year, on the erection of Guards' barracks, would be expended in the current year.

Mr. Roddy

I wish to re-echo the hope of Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney that the Parliamentary Secretary will certainly see that the staff engaged in supervisory work in his Department will be increased. I recognise the difficulty the Parliamentary Secretary has to contend with in that direction. I recognise also that drainage is exceedingly expensive work. In the case of the larger schemes it is unnecessary to make a very extensive and very exhaustive survey of the whole scheme. I realise, furthermore, as far as drainage work is concerned, that we have not, in this country, attained the same standard of proficiency as other countries. From my association with the Land Commission I came to recognise the difficulties inherent in this, and for that reason the Parliamentary Secretary has my sympathy in the problems ahead of him.

There are two points in this Estimate I wish to refer to. The first is the drainage scheme carried out in Sligo in 1925. A special Act of the Oireachtas was passed last year for the purpose of carrying out that scheme. A very substantial amount of State money was spent on the scheme, and I must say an enormous amount of good work was done. Land adjoining the River Owenmore benefited considerably, but in the last two or three years it has been discovered that there are certain imperfections in the scheme, and that, during certain seasons of the year, the adjoining lands were subject to flooding. This flooding does a considerable amount of damage to the crops of the farmers living on these lands. This matter was reported to the Board of Works, and I think, in the years 1929 and 1930, they sent down one of their inspectors to report on the causes of this sudden flooding. The inspector's report has been under consideration by the Board of Works for almost two years, but, so far, nothing has been done. Now that the Minister has a good deal of money at his disposal for the purpose of carrying out drainage work of all kinds, and for the purpose of improving existing drainage works, I would ask him to call for the report of his inspector on the Owenmore drainage scheme in Sligo, and perhaps he will see his way to allocate a certain amount of money for the purpose of remedying the difficulties in the existing scheme. I understand one or two parts of the river were not deepened sufficiently, and the banks, in some cases, particularly in one part of the river, are not sufficiently wide, and the summer floods, I believe, are attributable to these two defects. For the Minister's information I might mention that the Owenmore River flows through Sligo and empties itself into the ocean from the town of Sligo. I think the Parliamentary Secretary travelled over portion of that country in the last few years.

One other matter: Vote 10, sub-head E., deals with land improvement loans. I do not understand the position in regard to loans for land improvement by the Board of Works. I understood that certain responsibilities of the Board in this direction were transferred to the Agricultural Credit Corporation 18 months or two years ago. I understand that loans for the erection of houses on estates are not now given by the Board of Works. I want to find out what land improvement loans are given by the Board of Works Department at the present time. Are they confined to drainage works on farmers' holdings? Is it possible for a farmer to obtain a loan from the Board of Works for the erection of out-offices or what type of loans is given by the Board of Works Department at present? And what responsibilities, in this particular direction, were transferred to the Agricultural Credit Corporation?

Mr. O'Rourke

I wish to say a few words about the drainage of certain rivers in regard to which I have received communications. I think some of them are under consideration at the present time by the Board of Works and, perhaps, the Parliamentary Secretary may refer to them in his reply. The Suck drainage, in County Roscommon, has, I understand, been handed over to the County Council. The drainage of the river Tinnecarra is one that concerns Roscommon and Sligo and I would like to know what progress has been made there? I believe the actual work has not been commenced yet. I have had several communications from the districts concerned and so very likely have other Deputies from Roscommon and Sligo also. Another of these rivers, the Dalgan, rises in Roscommon and flows through portions of Mayo and Galway. We have been pestered about these rivers, and I would like to know what progress has been made and whether the drainage work will be commenced this season. Another of those rivers is called the Feorish North, but on a vote of the farmers concerned that work was turned down. I think the amount required to make it an economic proposition, from the farmers' point of view, would be large. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary if it is proposed to give a grant to proceed with that work. The river starts in Sligo and flows through the County Roscommon into the Shannon. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take particular note in connection with that matter. The scheme is ready and a fairly small sum of money only would be required to enable it to proceed.

Mr. Finian Lynch

On the question of minor marine works, I mentioned last night that I would like to raise a few matters under that head. I presume minor marine works will be carried on as before, and will be carried out at the request of the Department of Fisheries. When they are satisfied that certain work is necessary to be done it is up to the Board of Works to get financial sanction and to see that it is done. There was one particular work about which I had been frequently questioned by Deputy Thomas O'Reilly when the Fianna Fáil Party were in Opposition, and, apart from the fact that I may now be able to get a little of my own back, I have another reason for raising it and that is that the work is necessary.

Mr. Hugo Flinn

What work is that?

Mr. Lynch

The boat shelter at Cahirciveen. I know that Mr. McNeill, Inspector of the Department, has visited that particular place. Our difficulty, at the time, was that we had actually earmarked a certain amount of money for the work, and the County Councils were asked to participate. They, so far as I understand, were quite willing to do so, or the Commissioner acting for the County Councils was willing to do so, if the county surveyor approved. The county surveyor for that particular area of Kerry did not approve, and said that the proposed work as desired by the fishermen there and the fish curers would result in a great deal of silting, and a probable future cost of dredging. That closed the door, so far as we were concerned, and it closed it particularly because of the fact that the particular pier and harbour at Cahirciveen is under the control of the County Council and the fishery authority, or the Board of Works, for that matter, dare not go in and do work there which might result in silting, without accepting responsibility for any damage that resulted. I presume Mr. McNeill's report is with the Board of Works. He inspected the place early in January last, and he agreed with the county surveyor that the work actually proposed would cause silting, but he suggested an alternative, with which I think the county surveyor agreed, of arranging an arch, or something of that kind, by which a flush of water would come in to obviate silting. I would like to know where the matter stands now.

Before I left office, the Fishery Department would have been prepared to contribute at least portion, and if the Board of Works engineer is satisfied and has satisfied the Kerry County Surveyor, I should like the work to proceed as early as possible. This is a place where there are very progressive fishermen, who will go in for the better type of boat, the motor boat, and I expect that it will be the place where the new standard type of boat, as provided by the Sea Fisheries Association, will be largely adopted. Without shelter of the kind proposed, I understand it would be extremely dangerous for them to invest in these boats because of possible damage to them when lying up. There is one other point I would like to raise on the question of maintenance. There is a reduction of about £1,000 in the Vote for the maintenance and repair of national schools. I wonder exactly why that reduction was made, because, speaking broadly, I think it would be an economy that would be very ill-advised if it means that certain schools will be left without their usual repairs this year, or if the usual repairs and washing, etc., are not done in the customary thorough manner. Even at best, the maintenance of these vested schools was not all that might be desired, and many of the rural schools especially were lamentably kept. The condition of the walls and the indoor portion of the schools was often not at all up to what might be desired. I would like to know how that saving of £1,000 is going to be made in that respect.

I see that under the provision made for drainage there is a sum of £3,000 provided for the Maine, and I am assuming, from the way matters stood some months ago, that the work is going on. I candidly admit that I do not know much about the Maine— Deputy Flynn, who lives on it, would know far more about it—but I have been interested for a number of years in the question of the drainage of the Brick and the Cashen. This is a far bigger scheme, involving a far greater sum of money. There is no provision made here, and I would not expect provision to be made here, because it would almost necessarily be made in a special Supplementary Estimate, when agreement had been reached with the different authorities concerned. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary is familiar with the history of that particular drainage proposal of the Brick and the Cashen?

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Flinn)

That is one of the schemes for which the Government have agreed to give a grant, subject to later confirmation.

Mr. Lynch

Any delay that has occurred in the matter is not at all the fault of the Board of Works, nor is it the fault of the persons locally concerned. In fact, I understand, that they were willing to give a guarantee to accept responsibility for 12½ per cent. of the cost, whereas the Board of Works thought that the economic amount they should be responsible for was only 7½ per cent. A difficulty originally arose at the County Council, but that was got over, tentatively, at least, when Mr. Dwyer was there as Commissioner. Since then the thing has been hanging fire and I should like to know how it stands. The basin of the Brick is an area which suffers very greatly indeed from flooding, during certain seasons, and if the difficulty in the way could be cleared and the work proceeded with, I think it would give general satisfaction. These are the only points I want to raise.

Mr. Brodrick

I want to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the drainage of the Lough Corrib, Mask and Carra area. The drainage of this area has been before the Board of Works for years. It has been reported on several times by their engineer, estimated for and so forth, but the only distance which the work has gone is that the Board of Works have estimated for work to the extent of £10,000. The county surveyors of Co. Galway did not agree with that estimate. They say that £10,000 spent on that scheme is wasting money. For years the lands in that area have been flooded, and, two years ago, several residents in some of the villages had to leave their houses. The Board's Inspectors are well aware of this and the members of the Galway County Council are well aware of it. The people have had to leave their houses time and again, particularly in the village of Mointeagh. The occupiers of the land that would benefit under the Arterial Drainage Act could not pay the amount which the drainage of the land would cost. They are all very poor and they could not be expected to pay, and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with this matter. I know the Board's objection in years past has been that there are several rights in the Corrib—fishing rights, navigation rights and mill rights. I know that the sluices there for milling purposes were the trouble all along, but, so far as navigation rights on the Corrib are concerned, at present, they are practically nil, and I think the time is opportune for taking the matter up seriously because any drainage in the west of Co. Galway will take in what is known as the Dunmore drainage district and Black River district, from the north-east of the county flowing into the Corrib, and any drainage work carried out in any of these parts, unless the Corrib is dealt with first, is practically useless and only means further flooding of the land in the county.

It only means further flooding of land about the Corrib. In the Mountbellew and Castlegar drainage schemes the cost is, I believe, in or about £15,000. I understand that scheme has been decided on, and that the occupiers of the land that will benefit are in favour of it. There are three or four dredgers in Co. Galway, and to the credit of the Board of Works, I must say that very good work has been done there. Before these dredgers leave the County I think they should be put on to the Mountbellew and Castlegar scheme. The work would give a good deal of employment and would certainly benefit the lands. I would like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to drainage in the Craigabbey district. I believe that the money for this scheme is being voted and that the cost will be £5,000. I expect that the occupiers of the land will be in favour of the scheme, as it is hoped that it will improve conditions there. When drainage schemes are carried out I would like to know if the county surveyors and the assistant surveyors will be in charge of the maintenance works. I learn that advertisements are about to be issued for drainage inspectors. When these inspectors are appointed will they be under the control of the county surveyors or under the control of the Board of Works? I believe that better work would be done if drainage inspectors, when appointed, were under the supervision of the county surveyors.

Mr. J. Flynn

The procedure regarding drainage schemes has been that they are started at the source instead of at the mouth of rivers. Representations have been made by the county councils with a view to having drainage schemes started at the lower reaches of rivers, and to operate in conjunction with schemes adopted by the Board of Works. Farmers in the immediate vicinity of the Maine, and on the boundary line where the first scheme ends, objected to the valuation basis in the schedule prepared by the Board of Works. At the time the members of the County Council took action in the matter, and an inquiry was held at Castleisland. So far there has been no result. The farmers concerned have been advised that if the scheme adopted by the Board of Works is carried through, and if a greater volume of water is transferred to their lands, they can take action against the Board of Works.

The matter has been dragging on. The Commissioner for Co. Kerry adopted a further scheme which I understand has been submitted to the Board of Works. I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if that scheme could be expedited with a view to having the work on the lower reaches carried out in conjunction with the work now in progress. It is very important that that should be done because one scheme alone would be of no practical value. When I say that I am referring to the one for the upper reaches unless it is carried out in conjunction with the other one. Another scheme has been inaugurated for the drainage of a lake adjacent to Dooks Mountain in County Kerry, which will make about 400 acres of turbary available in a district in which there are 1,500 people unemployed. The matter has been brought to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary and I would ask him to deal with it as expeditiously as possible. If drainage schemes are carried out in the summer months it will mean that the work will have very desirable effects. When the full details have been placed before the Parliamentary Secretary regarding the Maine river and other drainage schemes I mentioned I hope they will be expeditiously dealt with.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Flinn)

The matters complained of by Deputy Flynn will be very carefully looked into, in order to see what can be done. It may be a question of the difficulty of combining two schemes which unfortunately is not possible, but the matters will be looked into. I think we should have some system by which replies could be written out. It practically means semi - Parliamentary questions and I think some other procedure may eventually be adopted.

Mr. Lynch

I hope you will remember that when you are in opposition again.

Mr. Flinn

I shall remember a lot of things. I shall have plenty of things to think over and to remember before I am in opposition. As to Lough Corrib, this is a minor scheme estimated to cost £10,000. It was put before the County Council and the Government promised an exceptionally high percentage of the cost. The County Council declined to contribute. I understand it is a scheme which is very uneconomic and very difficult to deal with. However as we are in a generous mood we will decide to investigate it with care.

Deputy Lynch was interested in the drop in the maintenance of schools. That is purely casual and not part of policy.

A detailed valuation of the land is being made in connection with the Brick and Cashen scheme. It is a very extensive scheme, and, as a matter of fact, I am rather puzzled about it. According to the figures, I have estimated the cost is £115,000, the Government grant being 50 per cent. and the County Council contribution 43 per cent. The estimated improvement value is 7 per cent. I am really puzzled as to why a scheme of that kind should be pressed in the way it is. I am raising it more as a test issue so that members of the House more conversant with the matter than I am may in future be able to help me. It seems to me to be really difficult to understand why the State as a whole is asked to put up £100 for an ostensible improved value of £7. On enquiry from those who are interested I am led to believe that these improved values as estimated by us—take this particular 7 per cent.—are considerably more.

I am prepared to accept that evidence I have at present as being very probably the fact. Even if you double or treble it, there still seems to be a huge gap to be bridged between 7 per cent. and 100 per cent. Then you take the case of the County Council. I am leaving it quite cynically and I might say that 50 per cent. is provided by the Government. I say there are all sorts of pressures, but leaving that aside for the moment, presumably the County Council must find some value in it, when they put up 43 per cent., that is six times the improved value of the land. Frankly I am puzzled to find out where it is.

Mr. Lynch

The answer is in the fact that the persons who are to benefit from the improved drainage are prepared to accept 12½ per cent. The County Council contributes 43 per cent. There is the difference between 7 per cent. and 12½ per cent., and that is a guarantee to the County Council that there is a genuine demand for the work.

Mr. Flinn

I can see the genuine demand. I am taking the 12½ per cent. now, and I have still got 87½ per cent. of ostensible economic value to be justified. I am leaving out the 50 per cent. which the State puts in, but someone has to justify this percentage of economic value. I shall put these figures on record. I have been asked to say something on the policy of drainage, but I am unwilling to say anything on that question until I understand a good deal more about it. I have here 21 schemes of arterial drainage which were completed up to date. They represent a total expenditure of £70,000, 47 per cent. of which was provided by the Government and 20 per cent. by the County Council; 32 per cent. represents the ostensible economic value. The ostensible economic value of all schemes up to the present is 32 per cent. I have also 11 schemes which have been approved and on which work has been commenced. The State contribution is 48 per cent., the County Council contribution is 22 per cent., and the ostensible improved value is 29.3 per cent. I have another case of three schemes representing £29,000, which have been approved but have not been commenced. In each of them the grant is 46 per cent., the County Council percentage is 23 per cent., and the ostensible improved value is 30 per cent.

I have a further list of schemes which may be confirmed in 1932. They represent an expenditure of £210,000, of which the Government's contribution is 49 per cent., the County Council's 25 per cent., and the ostensible improved value 25.6 per cent. There may or may not be visions floating about, but I do want you once more to justify, whether on purely financial grounds, whether on public health grounds, or upon sociological or social grounds of some kind, the gap which now lies between the economic value of the improved land and the total expenditure which we are making on them, I should be glad to have that from any member of the House who is in a position to supply it. The position now is that on every £3 we are prepared to spend only £1 is represented by increased value.

Mr. O'Hanlon

Might I ask the parliamentary Secretary how the increased value is arrived at?

Mr. Flinn

The increased value is arrived at by mapping the flooded areas at the time you spend the money, estimating then the value of the land which is flooded, and estimating the improved value of the land after the drainage work has been carried out, and taking the difference. That seems to be the reasonable way.

Mr. O'Hanlon

That is the actual area flooded when the engineer is on the scene, but in many cases the area of land liable to floods is much greater than that which the engineer sees flooded at the time of his visit.

Mr. Flinn

The Deputy may take it that it is the area which is subject to flooding and not the area which is actually flooded when John William Henry Jones, the engineer, happens to be on the spot. In regard to the question of the Finnecarra which was raised by Deputy O'Rourke, a survey and valuation are being made. The Dalgan River is being investigated in connection with another scheme. The Fenish North scheme was voted down by the farmers. The scheme of financial aid is generous and has never been departed from. Deputy Lynch asked a question in relation to minor marine works. He is perfectly correct in what he says, that as far as these are concerned where they are represented by a fishery value, the right place to apply in the first instance is through the fishery department to see if they can put up the cost. If they cannot do it for the fishermen, it would be rather difficult for us. In regard to the boat shelter at Cahirciveen, there is a certain amount of expert knowledge required in connection with the matter. There is a very great risk as to what might happen afterwards. Broadly speaking unless we can make model experiments which are practically universally done now in relation to any class of interference with a stream it is practically impossible to foretell what might happen. This is a case which is certainly deserving of immediate and careful investigation.

Deputy Roddy was interested in the Owenmore. This scheme cost £71,000 and the Government grant was £62,000. It looks as if the improved area left there would be very considerable. The balance is repayable in 40 years. There is provision in the Act for a special maintenance fund and it is up to the County Council now to look after it. Land improvement loans are made now only to farmers whose valuation is under £20 a year. They are made for all purposes of an agricultural nature. That is exactly as it used to be and there is no change. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney was good enough to start by throwing bouquets at the Board. It is very unusual for them to get them, and on their behalf I receive them with almost extravagant gratitude. I think that any flowers that have previously been thrown at the Board have been thrown in pots and to receive them in their bare and naked beauty certainly appeals to us.

The general idea is

" 'Tis an unweeded garden

That grows to seed; things rank

and gross in nature

Possess it merely."

I am glad to hear that from experience some of you have formed an entirely different opinion. It does not do any harm and sweetens life a little to say the kindly thing sometimes. With regard to the River Robe the scheme is in an advanced stage of preparation. It is a very big scheme involving special difficulties. The Department and county councils will shortly be asked for the necessary contributions. In regard to an increase of outdoor staff, if we have to carry out a considerable amount of drainage an increase in staff does seem likely to be required.

In face of the facts I have given you as to the economic value of the actual work done—it has been well done, taken on the average, in relation to the actual improvement value and the money spent on getting that improvement value—it is a matter for the consideration of the country how far and how rapidly they would press forward along those lines.

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney was interested in the question of the accommodation of the Gárda Síochána. There is no intention to restrict that in any way. Every effort is being made to proceed with it. It will be remembered that, in these cases, we are dealing with an estimate which has been given to us, and the modifications may be either positive or negative, but in either case they will be made in face of the necessities of the case. Deputy Brooke Brasier dealt with arterial drainage and minor drainage schemes. Under the present law, a scheme has to be put to the vote of those who have to pay. It is not possible under the present law to combine separate schemes. That might be desirable or undesirable, but it is a matter for legislation, and is at present out of our control. The work on the Woomanagh river is being carried out by us, but the minor schemes relating to it or resulting from it cannot be carried out by us because they are too small in character. The Deputy suggested that the people of Cork thought they were going to get something for nothing under the 1924 Act. That is a useful suggestion to make, but it does not happen in practice, as the Deputy knows.

Mr. Brasier

The scheme was completed without any reference whatever to the land-holders, and they were charged an annuity far in excess of the land annuity. They had no option in the matter.

Mr. Flinn

There were a number of schemes carried out under that Act and nobody was asked about them. That was the law. Where county surveyors have experience of arterial drainage or small drainage works, it is desirable to get their co-operation in every way but in a great many cases they have not any knowledge whatever of this work. They have not had to do this work and they do not know how to do it. The Board of Works' engineers and the engineers of the Land Commission have very definite and exact experience in that connection. As regards the Courthouse in Cork, I shall look into that question and see what we can do with it. It has been suggested that the loans have been held up by us in some way. That is not so. It has been suggested that this is not a blot on the perfectly white escutcheon of the Board of Works but that it is a sort of little blemish. Even that blemish does not exist. As soon as those loans come through from the other Departments who approve of them, there is no delay so far as the Board of Works is concerned.

Mr. Brasier

Perhaps the delay is in other departments.

Mr. Flinn

No. The Deputy can go and fight with them but let him not blame me.

Mr. Brasier

I do not blame you at all. You are blameless.

Mr. Flinn

The Deputy is young to the House or he would not require that warning. Deputy Bennett says that minor drainage schemes should follow on the drainage of the main artery. That is perfectly true in most cases. A great many of the troubles the Board is suffering from now are due to the fact that the drainage of the upper reaches, especially under the 1924 Act, has brought down the water faster than the lower portion of the river was prepared to remove it. We have some rather troublesome cases of that kind. Broadly speaking, you have got to make a channel before you put extra water into it. The Deputy was also interested in the Mulkear and Cappamore scheme. This scheme is under consideration and is receiving special attention. It is in the hands of the County Council and not in our hands and any expedition the Deputy wants to effect he should effect through the County Council and not through us.

He raised a question about a relief grant in relation to that scheme. That is a matter which has given me very considerable difficulty. There is a certain amount of money available for drainage under the relief scheme but the work which has been done under the Board of Works in relation to drainage has been done within the compass of particular Acts, which means that definite contributions have to be made by three parties, each one of them on the basis of value. The general principle has been that these works should be carried out as a business enterprise, as a commercial matter and not in any way as either a philanthropic or relief measure. Deputies will see that work carried out specifically in that fashion is rather difficult to combine in any way with relief works. You take a scheme and you can do it more economically by using dredgers or something of that kind. Then, it is a question of the men whom you would employ for the purpose. You might want to employ farmers' sons or men of that type—hardy men able to stand up in cold water and do their work. On relief schemes, you might want to relieve unemployment in a contiguous town. It is very difficult to combine drainage work under the Board of Works with a relief scheme. While, to a certain extent, it may be done, the object will be so to do it that it will not interfere in any way with that atmosphere.

Mr. Bennett

I quite appreciate what the Parliamentary Secretary says. It is quite right that the schemes should be, in some measure, economic. There are, however, peculiar circumstances, as the Parliamentary Secretary will find out in connection with this particular scheme. It is not a drainage scheme in the ordinary sense to relieve farmers but it is to relieve a village which it appears can only be dealt with in this way. It is a big scheme which would be very expensive on the people if they were not specially assisted.

Mr. Flinn

Mulkear is a case that cost £22,000 and its economic value must be very low because the total contribution between the Government and the County Council is 84 per cent.

Mr. Bennett

That is so. It is mainly to relieve a village. There is no provision under the Local Government law in respect of it and it is necessary that the village be relieved in some way.

Mr. Flinn

We will look into it from that point of view, but I want to avoid as far as I can mixing up the two entirely different principles of the purely commercial operation of drainage and of a relief scheme. Deputy Conlon was interested in the Cross River. That is being advertised and submitted to the votes of the occupiers. It is out of our hands. Deputy Curran referred to Loughshinny fishing pier. So far as that is concerned, as I said to Deputy Lynch, we desire all recommendations in relation to fishing facilities to come through the Board of Fisheries, where they will receive the most sympathetic attention, and, backed by that, will have a very much better chance of being dealt with by us. The question of Balbriggan Harbour will be looked into. Deputy O'Reilly was pressing in relation to the Blackwater scheme, which, he admitted, was uneconomic. It is very uneconomic. His suggestion is one that we have been considering— whether or not it is possible partially to deal with certain schemes and get the principal part of the advantage out of the scheme on, say, smaller expenditure. It is put to me— I am not expressing any opinion on it, because I have not got the expert knowledge—that in relation to certain schemes which would cost, say, £10,000 to complete, 50 per cent. of the advantage out of those schemes could be got for a very small percentage of the total amount of money.

Mr. O'Hanlon

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if the Estimate applies only to Meath and not to the County Cavan?

Mr. Flinn

I would rather go into that with more detail. It is not the faintest use my pretending that I know in absolute detail all the finances of all the drainage schemes that are knocking about. I do not, but any information that I cannot give the House now I will be happy to give you later. The Blackwater scheme will shortly be submitted to the occupiers for voting on. It is estimated to cost £32,000, and owing to its uneconomic nature it may be difficult to get the different parties to agree as to its proportions. When the scheme is voted on we will then put it to the Minister for Finance. The Boyne scheme was hopelessly uneconomic. It will cost £10,000, which will mean that it will require a very high grant. We are at present engaged in trying to find some alternative by which the financial aspect of it can be met. At the moment, as the scheme stands, I do not think we can stand over it.

Now to get back to yesterday's debate: Deputy Everett raised points about dredgers. The Deputy complained that the cost of the insurance on the dredgers was too high. It is a fact that you cannot insure a dredger for a lesser period than a month. The custom is we hire out the dredger and we charge the insurance from the time it leaves until it comes back. What is customary in relation to shipping work is that you take a block of insurance, say £50,000 per year, and you divide that insurance amongst the number of things that you are doing. We may find that we will be able to get a block of insurance for dredgers though it is difficult owing to the nature of the dredgers. Then what will happen is this: If a boat goes down to a port and remains there for twenty days that boat will be charged for her proportion of the standing charges. The Deputy's suggestion that we charge too much for dredgers is not based on fact. The present charges are based on overhead cost and repairs. They include nothing for interest or depreciation of capital, so that really the use of the Board of Works' dredger for small harbour work and so on is a form of subsidy from the State to those harbours. Deputies Brasier and Wolfe were asking about vacant sites. All I can tell them is that we will let them know with the greatest pleasure if they send us in a proposition. Deputy Minch was worried about the policy of the Board of Works in connection with the disposing of the Ardreigh mill near Athy. Under the Barrow Drainage Act, 1927, a draft award is being prepared. That award is to determine what mills are not required for the Barrow Drainage, and then to sell them or otherwise dispose of them. It seems the Board of Works cannot do that until the draft award has been prepared. Whether that is the right position or not I am not prepared to say, but it is the law at the moment. Deputy Corish complained that a local contractor had been passed over in Wexford and a contract accepted from a Leitrim contractor. This happened to be a contract which was made by the manager of the school, not by us. There is quite a history about that contract, but it was not in the discretion of the Board of Works one way or another. Where the manager puts up one-third of the total cost of a school building it is he who makes the contract for the letting, and he has to decide everything about it. In such cases the control is in the manager's hands. Deputy Corish alleges that in this particular contract the payment of wages was not up to the trade union standard. That again is outside our control under the law at the present moment. That contractor has now another contract under the Board, and if Deputy Corish can bring in any evidence that fair wages are not being paid under that particular contract or under any other contract, it would be a matter for immediate investigation by the Board of Works. It is a difficult question.

We have gone into it with some care as to whether or not we can force the fair wage clause in the case of contracts not made directly with the Board of Works. That raises the whole general question of Governmental interference in contracts which are not direct contracts with themselves. While the matter is one for investigation it is hardly one that can be settled on this particular issue. It raises the whole question of contracts in which Government money is concerned.

Mr. Anthony

Whilst I agree with what the Parliamentary Secretary has said, I would like to know how far was Government money expended on this particular contract?

Mr. Flinn

The Government pay about two-thirds.

Mr. Anthony

Therefore the manager paid only one-third. I suggest the Parliamentary Secretary should relate the proportion of money paid to the control. If the Board of Works has two-thirds of the expenditure it should have two-thirds of the control, and I want to suggest that in contracts of this kind the fair wages clause should be inserted. In all Government contracts so far as I know, the fair wages clause is inserted. I do not know the nature of the query put up by Deputy Corish, but I do feel that the Department should have gone further in that matter, and the Parliamentary Secretary and his Department who have the responsibility on them should accept that responsibility in seeing that where Government money is expended, if it were only fifty-fifty, or even twenty-five-seventy-five, that they should insist that the fair wages clause should obtain.

Mr. Flinn

That matter is under consideration, Deputy Dillon wanted to see that drainage boards were controlled in some way by the Government. They are not under the control of the Government at the moment. We can transfer them under certain circumstances where default or something of that kind arises to the control of the County Councils but the County Councils do not seem to be wildly enthusiastic about taking them up. I mean that is putting it very mildly.

Deputy Esmonde was interested in the Gorey Gárda Síochána Barracks. This happens to be in the Estimate for £1,600 this year. We hope to get on with it. Deputy Coburn wants the Dundalk Military Barracks for housing purposes. That is an enquiry we are getting very regularly from different quarters. On the 1st June the Urban District Council of Dundalk was informed that, in so far as the barracks are found to be surplus to Government requirements, they will be advertised for letting in accordance with the usual practice. If they have a housing scheme for which the barracks would be useful, it will be for them to submit the scheme to the Department of Local Government. Broadly speaking, the practice of the Department has been to find out what would be the economic value of premises which they are asked for and if the scheme of the local authorities, letting houses at a rent they would be able to get, will not produce a profit, then they are not charged anything; it is just a line-ball proposition. If there is a margin of profit from utilising it as a housing site, then there is a rent charged somewhat in proportion.

Mr. Coburn

Have the Dundalk Military Barracks been handed over to the Department?

Mr. Flinn

They have either been handed over or they are about to be.

Mr. Coburn

We were told that they were actually handed over.

Mr. Flinn

There are a lot of things told to the Deputy that are not true.

Mr. Coburn

Outside the question of housing altogether, there is a very important matter that affects the town of Dundalk. There is the possibility of certain buildings that are situated within the precincts of the barracks being used for a factory.

Mr. Flinn

Every possible consideration will be given to that. Deputy Coburn referred to the Rampart River drainage district. A scheme estimated to cost £3,700 for the purpose of improving some 320 acres of land was submitted to the votes of the occupiers in September, 1927. The scheme necessitated free grants of 50 per cent. from Government funds and 17.9 per cent. from Louth County Council. The contribution was agreed to by the County Council. An objection was made by the Dundalk Urban District Council to the disturbance of the river bed on account of the precarious condition of the sewer. As the Urban District Council refused to accept responsibility for any damage likely to accrue to the sewer, the scheme was dropped. An alternative scheme was suggested to provide for the outfall through a new cutting along the northern side of the Great Northern Railway and reverting into the Rampart nearer the outfall. This scheme, which is estimated to cost a sum of £5,200, is rendered difficult of accomplishment owing to the presence of the sewer pipe and interference with railway property. The scheme is now being investigated.

Deputy Norton referred to a Central Sorting Office in Dublin. It is not expected that any work on this proposal will be started during the current financial year. I will see if there is any reason to depart from that decision, but that is the position at the moment. Deputy Norton also asked whether drainage works could be carried out on the Greese River, a tributary of the Barrow. A petition has been received in respect of this scheme and has been referred to the engineer. It will probably be some months before any close consideration can be given to it.

Deputy G. O'Sullivan referred to Rathmines Post Office and Telephone Exchange. Work will be started this year and an expenditure of £5,000 is provided for in this year's Estimates. Deputy O'Hanlon referred to Cavan military barracks. They were taken over from the Army on the 10th March. Two blocks are let to the Cavan Vocational Education Committee on a yearly tenancy. The balance, if found to be surplus to Government requirements, will be advertised for letting. Deputy O'Hanlon was also interested in the Lough Erne drainage scheme. That is a scheme which will have to be carried out in conjunction with Northern Ireland. A drainage committee has sat upon the scheme in Northern Ireland and representatives of Free State Departments have attended the committee as observers. The prospects of action are believed to be remote, but no decision has yet been reached by the Northern Ireland Government so far as is known. However, we will see what negotiation will do.

Deputy Davis spoke about the River Moy. This is a scheme which would cost £215,000 and would require grants of over 90 per cent. to make it economic for the occupiers. The Mayo County Council requested that a scheme for the Foxford-Ballina section alone should be considered. A rough estimate for this section would be £52,000 and a contribution of about 32 per cent. would be required from the County funds in addition to 50 per cent. from the Government, making a total contribution of 82 per cent. No further action has been taken as the Council have not agreed, so far as we know, to make the necessary contribution.

Deputy Flynn, of Kerry, asked about drainage districts at Castlegregory and Cullinagh. A drainage scheme was recently completed near Castlegregory. The scheme for Cullinagh drainage district was rejected because the estimated cost is under £1,000 and it therefore falls to be dealt with by the County Council under the Arterial Drainage (Minor Schemes) Act, 1928.

Deputy Conlon was very interested in the River Suck. We are all very interested in the River Suck. The position is that a provisional Charging Order has been prepared and it is being sent down to the County Council. On the basis of that Order we may be able to go into the matter and see what can be done. The difficulty is that there is a sum of £3,301, interest which has accrued during the period. While I at first thought that £3,301 was a rather heavy sort of burden, it has to be remembered that during the period when it accumulated the people who will have to pay it were getting the benefit, to some extent, of the drainage work that was done. We will let that Charging Order go to the County Council and then see what the position will be.

Mr. Conlon

Will the County Council be given an opportunity of considering the Charging Order?

Mr. Flinn

We are deliberately doing that. We are avoiding making any cast-iron, water-tight decision. It goes down in some form which can be considered.

Mr. O'Rourke

For consultation?

Mr. Flinn

I think the term is negotiation. I think that completes the whole of the operations. If there is any other information that Deputies may want, I will be most happy to give it to them if they come to me.

Vote agreed to.