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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jul 1932

Vol. 43 No. 2

Adjournment Debate. - The Illegal Importation of Arms.

I gave notice to-day that I would raise the subject matter of the following Question on the adjournment:—

To ask the President if he will state (1) if reports have been received by him or if he has, otherwise, reason to believe that the landing of arms on the coast of the Saorstát, or their transfer across the land frontier, has been successfully attempted or is likely to be attempted; (2) if instructions (whether of a special or general nature) regarding attempts to bring arms into the Saorstát have been given by him direct, or through the Ministers more particularly concerned, either to the Gárda or the Army; (3) if any steps have been taken to prevent arms destined for associations in this country acting without the authority of the State leaving foreign countries, or to effect their seizure before being landed here; and (4) if any requests for collaboration in the matters of prevention or seizure have been made to any other Government, or if any offer of collaboration has been made by any other Government and, if so, how such requests and offers have been received.

What was put up to me as a reply was this:

No information has reached me that any landing of arms on the coast of the Saorstát or any transfer of arms across the land frontier has taken place or been attempted. In fact, the reports received by the Government are to the effect that there has been no such landing or transfer. With regard to parts (2), (3) and (4) of the question I can only state that in view of the representations received the Government has taken all the precautions that would be warranted if those representations were well founded.

I asked that Question of the President and I direct attention to the fact that it referred, not merely to something attempted, but something likely to be attempted, and the reply was that he knew of no such likely attempt. I then directed his attention to that part of the Question which referred to requests for collaboration, or if offers of collaboration had been received, and to that, I think I got no answer at all. I then asked in the second part of the Question, if instructions, regarding attempts to bring arms into the Saorstát, had been given by him, either to the Gárda or the Army. Three times I asked very much the same question—and three times, all the President could be brought to say was that all the precautions that would be warranted had been taken. I asked precisely on that if the full force of the law was going to be brought to bear on people attempting to land arms. Again, the President was evasive, and took refuge in the phrase that all the precautions warranted have been taken.

Before I put the gist of this Question in another form I want to call attention to the peculiar phrase used in the third sentence of the reply: "With regard to parts (2), (3) and (4) of the question I can only state that in view of the representations received the Government has taken all the precautions that would be warranted if those representations were well founded." If anyone can discover what that means I would like to offer a prize. "In view of the representations," what were the representations? We do not know, but we are told, "the Government has taken all the precautions." Note this for straight speaking, for good English and proper appreciation of Parliamentary procedure—Parliamentary Question and Reply—"The Government has taken all the precautions that would be warranted if these representations" whatever they may be—"were well founded." The idea of a Parliamentary Question is to get information and the general idea of a Parliamentary reply is to give information. There has been a complete failure to appreciate either what the function of a Parliamentary Question was, or of the duty in regard to a Parliamentary reply.

I referred earlier to-day to public anxiety in this matter. That was derided by the President. There is considerable public anxiety. It is not going to be allayed by a certain camouflaged statement given by way of reply to-day. There is considerable activity off the coast of this country for some two or three weeks. The statement appeared in the Press that destroyers belonging to another country had put into certain ports in this country. There were certain statements made backed up by Deputies that a boat had, in fact, been seized and searched and there have been many rumours of success in the way of landing of arms. There has not been a word from the Government as to whether or not there was an attempt made to prevent that, or whether an attempt was successfully brought off to bring in arms. We know that there are arms in the country—whether they are newly imported or not I do not know—but two incidents during Congress Week showed distinctly that they are in the country, and they are in the hands of people determined to use them against the people and against private property rights. I have no information that any action was taken by the Government in regard to these incidents. As far as I can see to-day there is not going to be even a clear declaration from the Government that the law will be enforced with the utmost rigour against individuals, no matter what guise of patriotism hides them, if they attempt to bring in arms without lawful authority. When a question of this sort is raised, even if it were on the merest rumour it was founded, and that there was not the substantial backing of a Deputy, who stated that a boat had been searched for arms— and apparently searched with authority—if there is anything so definite as that a responsible Government would have welcomed the opportunity of even a rumour being brought to their notice. It would give them the opportunity to say that, if such a thing were well founded, or if, hereafter, any such attempt were made, they would deal with it and deal with it according to the law. If they do not like the law as it is at present, they could tell us that they are going to change the law. If their mentality with regard to the landing of arms is not in accord with what the law is at the moment, they ought either to change their mentality or change the law. We had no statement that the law was going to be enforced. There was a running away from the responsibility of enforcing the law—a hiding behind the phrase: "In view of the representations received, the Government has taken all the precautions that would be warranted if those representations were well founded." Is that the answer of an honest man facing honestly up to the question put to him? I repeat that question: is that the answer of an honest man facing honestly up to the question put to him?

An honest man. We should have a picture of him hanging up.

The honesty referred to the facing up to the question. No wonder the President laughs at anybody associating honesty with himself. Is that the answer of an honest man honestly facing up to a question put to him about the landing of arms, which is illegal at the moment? There is only one statement required in answer to this question—a very simple statement. That is, that, irrespective of whether there have been attempts or are going to be attempts, the law is going to be enforced, and that if coercion—that awful word—must be used, it is going to be applied to people who are seeking for means to coerce other people and are endeavouring to bring weapons into this country because they believe it is only by brute force they can coerce the people and not by argument.

What information have you?

Does the Deputy object to my putting the question?

Tell the House what information you have.

I have not said I have any. I have asked a particular question.

More Cumann na nGaedheal propaganda.

The propaganda can be silenced at once by two statement— that there have been no such attempts and that the law will be enforced.

You have got them both.

Is that statement an attempt to give an answer? What is the necessity for all this verbiage? All that was required, in answer to the second part of the question, was to say that instructions had been given. When I see the number of excited people around me, it appears to me as if there is more than usual interest taken in this matter of landing arms—

They came in for the star turn—McGilligan's circus.

On the question of landing of arms—

A Deputy

Why not put the ex-Minister for Justice up to speak?

The Deputy who is speaking is entitled to be heard.

Hear, hear! There is no freedom of speech when an ex-Minister attempts to speak.

There is considerable interest displayed in this question here and there is considerable interest displayed in it outside. Considerable interest is going to be displayed in the evasion that took place this morning on this matter. There is going to be a lot of peculiar interest taken in Deputy Davin and his interruptions in regard to this matter. He has not heretofore played a very vigilant part in respect of law and order in the country and he has not associated himself in a practical way with law and order by those interruptions.

I was waiting for the information you have on the matter.

The Deputy has not been noted in the past for giving anything except rumours—

On a point of order, will Deputy McGilligan tell the House when and where those arms were landed and what he is making all the noise about?

That is a question, not a point of order.

I am perfectly entitled to ask if reports have been received by the President or if he has any reason to believe that a landing of arms has been attempted or is likely to be attempted.

You must know, then.

If not, what are you talking about?

I am asking a question to obtain information. That will penetrate one day to the Deputy—that a Deputy who has not got information of his own may ask for information from the people who must have it.

It is like Deputy Hogan's big fight in Cork.

There seems to be considerable annoyance caused by the putting of this question.

Amusement.

The Deputy does not strike me as a man who is being amused. If he is, he is not a charming person in his amusement.

I am quite capable of being amused.

The Deputy should learn to restrain himself.

It does seem an extraordinary thing that on a rather important question, such as whether or not arms are being brought into this country without authority, there should be all this attempt to close down. I wonder why it is. Have Deputies some feeling that if the answer to this question is as the people of the country would like, they are turning their backs on their own tradition? Are they a little bit afraid of some things they may have stated in their own constituencies at times? Are they a little bit too mindful of a certain enthusiasm which they displayed with regard to certain people who may be remembering that enthusiasm at this moment and may be relying on it to prevent the law being enforced against them? I wonder is that the reason why members of a particular party cannot have this question even discussed? The House is entitled, since it did not get this information earlier, to the information I asked for. I asked, in the second part of the question, if instructions had been given either to the Gárda or the Army regarding attempts to bring arms into the country. I asked, in the third part of the question, if steps had been taken to prevent arms destined for associations in this country acting without authority of the State, leaving foreign countries or to effect their seizure before being landed here. I asked further—and this should be answered— if any requests for collaboration in the matters of prevention or seizure have been made to any other Government or if any offer of collaboration has been made by any other Government and, if so, how such requests and offers have been received. All those questions admit of a very simple and very precise answering. That precise answering should be given. Did any other Government approach this Government or was any other Government approached by this Government in this matter at all? Were the Civic Guards instructed in this matter or were the Army instructed? If so, what were the instructions? If we can have those four points answered, I am satisfied.

The Deputy, in the course of his remarks, said the question could have been directly and simply answered by stating whether any arms were landed or whether we had information that would lead us to believe that any arms were likely to be landed and whether the law was going to be enforced. As a matter of fact, this morning, either in the direct answer or in the supplementaries, particularly in the supplementaries, these two questions were definitely answered, almost in the very words that the Deputy suggests now would be a complete answer. I said that in our view no arms were landed and our belief is that no arms were landed. We had no information that would lead us to believe that any arms were likely to be landed and, as far as enforcing the law was concerned, we said we would enforce the law. The Deputy revealed the real purpose in his own mind in asking this question in the remark he made a few minutes ago; apparently the Deputy is not happy because the Government can carry on here in these benches without exciting the people by bogus rumours. We have not got to raise up any Communistic cry. We have not to raise up any threats or suggestions that arms are coming into the country; in order to have peace in the country we do not want or require Public Safety Acts. Apparently what is troubling the Deputy is that we have peace in the country.

Why search the coal boat at Ross Pier then?

The coal boat was searched. It was searched by the Gárda in the carrying out of their duty and if there is any conclusion to be drawn from the searching of the coal boat it is that the Gárda were vigilant and that the law was to be enforced if there was any need for enforcing the law.

They did it on instructions?

The answer was made to the question that precautions were taken that would be warranted if the representations made were well founded. What does that mean? There is no difficulty for anybody who wants to understand its meaning understanding it. Representations were made to the Government and we acted as if we believed these representations. We acted as if we were certain that all these representations were well founded and every precaution that should have been taken on that assumption was taken. I do not mean to say that we ourselves believed the rumours or the representations or scares were well founded, but we felt that no risks of any kind should be taken and we did not take any. Every precaution that should be taken by the Government under such circumstances was taken.

We have been asked what reports were received about this. I do not want even the distance that I went to-day to be a precedent. I am going to inform the Deputy that I will not answer any question in future about confidential reports that we get from the Gárda in the carrying out of their duties, or confidential reports about other business of the State. I have the responsibility to see that confidential reports will be kept confidential, and we intend to maintain that confidence. The only redress that members or Deputies of the House have against our refusal to give away matters of confidence is to get a new Government.

What about answering Part 4 of the question as to representations made to or by other Governments?

The House adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 7th July.

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