There are certain important things which require to have attention drawn to them on this Vote. I submit that the House is being completely misled by the statements made here by various Ministers—by the Minister for Finance and by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and that very large sums of money are being raised and misspent. The misspending of money is a matter that requires very careful consideration, and the effect of the way in which this money is being handled, I submit, has created a very, very serious state of affairs in the matter of administration. In introducing the Vote the Minister for Finance indicated in his statement that he was dealing with grants to the extent of £1,500,000—£155,000 from the previous Relief Vote, £350,000 from this, and £1,000,000 which he intended to borrow for road work, to be spent in unemployment relief during the present winter. He indicated that about £1,150,000 of this had been allocated, with probably half that money at least expended, and that there only remains £350,000 to be allocated. The Minister for Finance pointed out in his statement of the 18th of November, col. 2078—that he wanted to assure the Dáil that machinery was being set up to supervise and control expenditure on relief schemes. He said:
"The Government is straining every nerve, and the resources of the Departments are being taxed to the utmost, in order to ensure that the money will be wisely, judiciously and reproductively spent."
and he indicated that the works that were being done would yield a profit upon the moneys provided that would increase the general prosperity of the community, and that it would be realised that, in discharging a Christian duty to its people, the State has reaped its own reward.
The Minister for Industry and Commerce in various ways has indicated that having found—as he stated in column 1095 of the 3rd November last, —that before his time "the employment exchanges were being administered for the purpose of confining employment to a small section of the community—they were being administered for the purpose of giving employment to those who could be regarded as likely to be supporters of the Cumann na nGaedheal party,"— having found that, he changed the whole of it, and that he issued various instructions because he was determined that by every means in his power he was going to eliminate the chances of political bias or favour coming into operation, and he laid down a new order of preference. The order of preference was (1) married men with families; (2) married men without families; (3) single men with dependants, and after that, single men without dependants. He said "We insist in every case in which work has been given, that is work provided out of State funds, that the workers would be selected through the employment exchanges, that the manager of the employment exchanges is to select the people who are to do that work and the manager does select these people." I am incorrectly reported as intervening in the debate to ask "Why?" I think it must have been Deputy Morrissey who asked it. The answer to the question is "Because of my determination that under no circumstances is there going to be any danger of political consideration in the selection of the men."
In dealing with the Minister for Finance's statement of 3rd November in the matter of the uneconomic and bad expenditure of money, Deputy Gorey gave instances in regard to his constituency. The public mind generally has been disturbed by the type of agitation which has arisen in various parts of the country in connection with the employment given by local bodies under these relief schemes. Deputy Gorey pointed out that the local body in the City of Kilkenny had completely broken down as a result of the way in which these relief schemes were worked there—that at the dictates of what was called a "Soviet mob" some officials of Kilkenny City had been dismissed, and the House is aware that the regular employees of the Kilkenny County Council have had to organise themselves into an association to protect their own employment against the methods that were being used in the County Kilkenny. The public has been disturbed by similar movements throughout the country. You have workers invading, say, the county council chambers in Longford, and declaring that the county surveyor was an Englishman and should be got rid of. The county surveyor is a Cork man and his name is Murphy, but the use of the word "Englishman" is sufficient to help some people to achieve their purpose in starting up a feeling against officials who are honestly endeavouring to administer public funds in a proper way. On the day upon which the Minister for Finance was giving this House the assurance that these very considerable sums of money were being properly spent, that the Government itself was straining every nerve, and that the resources of the Departments were being taxed to the utmost to ensure that the money was being properly spent, the Mayo County Commissioners—that is the members of the Mayo County Council, who were restored to office by the present Government—were receiving a letter from the county surveyor. The letter was marked "private and confidential." We are indebted to the public spirit of the editor of the "Western People" for giving the contents of that letter to the Mayo people, and to the people of the country generally, because he said that it was the privilege of the people of the country to be placed in possession of the facts, so far as the chief official of the county council was concerned. I think every person interested in the doing of public work, or the expenditure of public money, or the tone of public administration, will approve of the attitude of the editor of the "Western People" in this matter.
The County Surveyor in Mayo advises the Commissioners in Mayo— that is the late members of the County Council restored as Commissioners—that he "regrets very much to have to report that we have not got value and that we are not getting value in a number of the works at present being carried out. The reasons are many, and are all outside our control. In the first place a number of absolutely useless gangers have been appointed—men who have failed to carry out the instructions given to them. In some cases, they were unable to carry out the instructions through ignorance, and in other cases they refused to carry out the instructions because they felt, and even suggested, that they were appointed by the Commissioners, and that the survey staff had little or no control over them. As a matter of fact, even members of the survey staff have allowed gangers to carry on irregularly, because they felt that they could not interfere with gangers who were appointed over their heads. The result has been that all kinds of difficulties have cropped up. We have cases in which gangers appointed to their gangs twice as many men as they were allowed to employ, with the result that very little work was done, there was practically no supervision, and the amounts were over-expended even before the assistant surveyors had an opportunity of checking the works. Other cases have arisen in which men have gone to work in spite of the gangers. In some cases the gangers were so terrified that they did not even try to check the time of their gangs, and the men actually left the work about 4.30 in the evening and were marked up for a full day." As a result of all this, the county surveyor points out that he is not getting more than 60 per cent. of the value of the money expended. Now, we have been told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that all the men who are being put on relief works are recruited through the employment exchanges.
In reply to a question of mine the Minister for Local Government stated recently that out of the 589 men engaged on roads in the County Mayo 589 were employed through the labour exchanges. I understand these figures included only those that are employed on road maintenance or moneys raised by the county council itself, and that the employment that has been given out of the Road Fund does not include the number of men employed on relief schemes. Now, if 589 out of 589 men on the ordinary road works are stated by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to be recruited from the labour exchanges, we are entitled to assume that he would be also told from Mayo that the men employed on the relief schemes are employed in accordance with instructions and are employed from persons nominated by the labour exchanges. The extent to which that is not a fact is shown by some further remarks of the county surveyor. I think he clearly points out that the information which the Department of Local Government are supposed to have from the Mayo County Council is that the 589 men referred to by them have been employed through the labour exchanges. I think the Minister is entitled to take it that he is probably misled by the Mayo County Council in that matter too. The county surveyor, however, says that recently twenty-six labourers and twelve extras forced themselves to work on a job in addition to the normal gang there, with the result that the work had to be closed down, and we have now at the present time a work being carried out under the protection of the Civic Guards, where young men without dependants, who have already supplied large quantities of stones, are demanding the right to hand-break these stones and so debarring married men with dependants, and men on outdoor relief from getting the work. He says in a number of cases gangers are putting men to work on receipt of notes from different people not connected with the county council, and works committees have been set up in areas to select the men in advance and supply the names to the gangers.
The result of this is evident in a recent case, which I checked, where a man had thirteen men employed in a gang, eleven of whom were single, and one was the son of a road contractor, who had over fifty years' experience of road contracts, and as a matter of fact, the ganger had room only for satisfactory men at the most. The county surveyor says in another case the ganger had twelve men employed, one was a boy about fifteen years, working in his father's name; ten were single young men, both of whose parents are alive and landowners, and not one of them had dependants,—in fact, two were working in their brothers' names not having registered, and there was only one married man. In another case a ganger had nineteen men employed, thirteen of whom were single men, and only one had dependants. Several married men with families, up to ten in number, came along and complained, but were refused work on the job. These extracts from the county surveyor's report made by him on the 17th November indicate to what extent the policy, as outlined to the House here on the 3rd November and which the Minister for Industry and Commerce enshrined in his new regulations, is actually being carried out both as regards the employment of men through the labour exchanges, and the giving preference to married men and men with dependants over the others. The position appears to have arisen in Mayo that local bodies, springing, I submit, from Fianna Fáil clubs in the area, have formed themselves into committees to decide what men shall be employed in their neighbourhood, and when these men are being engaged by these local Fianna Fáil clubs dependants are not taken into consideration; their selection is entirely based on the extent to which they are Fianna Fáil supporters in the county. I said that the county surveyor's letter was dated the 17th November. I said that the public had been disturbed by manifestations in various parts of the country, but so far as I know everything was absolutely quiet in Mayo until the pot boiled up a little bit at a meeting of the county council and which was reported in the "Western People" on the 5th November and from which I would like to read some extracts. I think it was Deputy O'Hara who raised some question here as to an order that was issued in July last by the Mayo County Council to this effect: that all gangers who did not produce references from the two county council members living nearest to them were automatically dismissed from their employment, and that no gangers would be employed in future until they produced references from the two county councillors living nearest to them. Arising out of a portion of that order, at a meeting of the county council reported in the "Western People" of the 5th November the following discussion took place:—
At one part of the proceedings Mr. Ruane said he noticed in the report a reference to gangers, which he quoted, and said he wanted to know were these 120 gangers new appointments, or were they in addition to the others. He also inquired about gangers who were dispensed with.
The Chairman (Mr. Campbell) said he did not think they should have this inquiry into the working of the staff.
Mr. Nally, T.D., said the council were entitled to this information.
Later on again Mr. Duffy asked, how many gangers were fired since the previous meeting, and the county surveyor did not reply.
Mr. O'Hara: I would like to ask how many were dismissed on the recommendation of the Chairman.
Mr. Munnelly: It is my candid opinion that we did not dismiss half enough because, as I said before, they ruled the country with a rod of iron for ten years and they wanted to keep these men in office for all time. It was time to dismiss them and a good many more of them will be dismissed. (Applause from the gallery).
He referred to a man dismissed by the county surveyor and the county surveyor said that the matter would come up later.
Mr. Duffy said he did not recommend anyone on account of politics.
Mr. Munnelly: "You are like them all—you have no politics. Apart from politics, you should not be here, or men like you."
Mr. Ruane said the council was entitled to the information. "We should know how many were dismissed, and what tribunal was set up to dismiss them."
Mr. Munnelly: "Pass on to the next business. Your days of power are over."
Later on in the proceedings:
Mr. Ruane again raised the question about the gangers and said they were "entitled to know what happened behind the backs of the council."
Chairman: "What is killing you is that you are not ruling here. I am ruling."
Mr. Durkin: "I think, in all fairness, the question should be answered."
Mr. Ruane: "Put the question to the county surveyor and let him answer it."
Chairman: "Do, and do not be making speeches for your friends."
Mr. Ruane: "When did the dismissals take place"?
Chairman: "Some pets of yours did not get the jobs."
Mr. Ruane: "You have more pets than any ten members."
Chairman: "He cannot swallow the medicine."
Mr. Durkin: "We are entitled to an answer."
Chairman: "You are entitled to something—you are a bad case."
Mr. Duffy: "Dismissals took place here after the County Council the last day."
Mr. Ruane: "Is it a fact that after the last meeting you went to the County Surveyor's office and blue pencilled the names of the people you did not want as gangers?"
Mr. Munnelly: "What should be used on them is the cat-of-ninetails." (Laughter.)
Mr. Ruane: "Did you ever get it?"
Chairman: "Have you got enough?"
Mr. Ruane: "I have not got an answer yet."
Chairman: "Go on to the next business."