Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Mar 1933

Vol. 46 No. 12

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 64—Army.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Aiken)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £835,314 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha na Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Costas an Airm (maraon le Cúltaca an Airm).

That a sum not exceeding £835,314 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the cost of the Army (including Army Reserve).

The Estimate for the Army Vote for the year 1933-34 has been framed on the basis of the following personnel:—

Officers, 535; non-commissioned officers, 1,388; privates, 3,962; cadets, 43; nurses, 15; chaplains, 11; class "A" reservists, 4,700; class "B" reservists, 3,500; officer reservists, 239; volunteer reserve, 480; Officers' Training Corps, 650.

Compared with the personnel provided for in the current year's estimate, there is an increase of 16 officers, 400 class "A" reservists, 19 officer reservisits, 50 cadets of the Officers' Training Corps, and seven cadets for the regular army, and on the other hand, there is a decrease in numbers of 150 other ranks, 400 class "B" reservists and 284 volunteer reservists.

The increase of 16 officers is mainly due to the fact that cadets will be due for commissioning during the financial year. The increase of 19 officer reservists is due to the necessity for providing for possible retirements and new appointments. The increase of 50 in the number of cadets for the Officers' Training Corps is attributable to the fact that this unit continues to expand, and that the figure of 650 only just represents its actual strength. Finally, the increase in the number of cadets for the Regular Army is due to the fact that we are providing for more new entrants next year than in the current year.

In regard to the decrease of 150 other ranks, the numbers provided for, though less than that provided for in the current estimate, represent approximately the present strength of the Army, and it is intended to maintain that average throughout the whole year. As regards the reduction of 400 in the number of Class "B" Reservists, it is necessary to state that recruitment for this arm of the Service will not be proceeded with during the next financial year. The decrease in the number of Volunteer Reservists is simply due to the fact that this particular arm of the Reserve has not in past years increased to the extent provided for in the Estimates.

Turning now to the financial aspect of the Estimate, it will be noticed that there is a nett decrease of £65,144 in the Estimate for 1933-34 as compared with that for the financial year 1932-33. The gross decrease in the Estimate amounts to £91,364, but this is offset by an increase of £25,400. The decrease is mainly attributable to the following factors:—

(a) Reduction in numbers, as for instance, in the case of sub-head "A";

(b) The lower price level for certain commodities, as for instance in the case of provisions under sub-head "K" and reduced Cost-of-Living Bonus under sub-head "Y."

(c) The abolition of certain nonessential services such as the expenses incurred in connection with the Constitution Amendment (No. 17) Act, 1931.

(d) Closer estimation in numbers and cost in the light of experience, as for instance in the case of Incidental Expenses, Telegrams, Telephones, and expenses in connection with Foreign Horse Shows, etc.

The increases are attributable to the following factors:—

(a) In the case of the £5,261 under sub-head "B" it is due to the fact that the basis for the Marriage Allowance Establishment has been considerably widened so as to allow young married men to be eligible for the allowance.

(b) In the case of the £688 under sub-head "F" it is due to the necessity of replacing reserve stocks and purchasing an X-Ray apparatus in substitution for the one in use at present, which has become obsolete and utterly unserviceable.

(c) In the case of sub-head "J" the increase is due to the necessity of replacing cars which have become worn out, and are no longer serviceable.

(d) In the case of sub-head "L" it is due to the increased use of mechanical transport which is offset considerably by a reduction for conveyance by rail for troops and stores under sub-heads "H" and "I."

(e) In the case of sub-head "N" it is due to the need of putting in the field a Reinforced Infantry Brigade during the next collective training period. In this connection the main increase is due to an item for hireage of horses, which is the most economic manner of putting the Brigade in question in the field.

(f) In the case of sub-heads "O" (£7,204), "P" (£4,689), and "Q" (£350), the increase is due to the almost absolute necessity of providing the Army with technical stores, purchase of which in past years has been deferred, but which cannot be deferred any longer if the Army is to function as an efficient instrument of the State.

(g) In the case of sub-head "S" it is due to the necessity of providing certain Minor New Works which have become absolutely necessary for the training of the troops, and in the case of sub-head "V" (£1,148) to the urgent need of replacing barrack furniture, bedding and utensils, to provide for the comfort of the troops.

The Army equitation team has continued during the past year its successes abroad. In this connection it may be well to point out that the cost as shown in the Estimate under sub-head A. 3 is gross, and not nett. From the figures shown under the sub-head there must be deducted refunds in respect of transport expenses from the various show committees, and also the prize money won in the different competitions. In point of fact, the cost of five shows in 1931 was only £1,022, and in 1932 the cost of four was only £621. Taking into consideration the advertisement which these shows provide for our Irish hunters, it will be seen that the cost is in no way proportionate to the results achieved. In the various competitions in which our horses took part, at Nice, Rome, Brussels, Olympia, United States, Canada and Berlin, during 1932 they obtained 15 first, eight second, 11 third, 14 fourth, three fifth, seven sixth, two seventh and six eighth places. In view of these results the actual expenditure involved must be considered as trifling.

In regard to the Army generally, the health of the troops is good, their discipline is excellent and their training is going ahead as rapidly as possible. It is hoped that during this year the training will assume a more intensive form, and that the Autumn manoeuvres will show good results.

Mr. Esmonde

I do not think the Minister has been altogether exhaustive in his introduction of this Estimate. In the years when the Minister was in opposition, every year when this Estimate was introduced his Party would take the opportunity of attacking the Government and demanding an explanation of their defence policy from the general national point of view. I think that the Minister himself took part in many of those debates. I had hoped that now that the Minister has been in office for over a year he might have made up his mind as to what changes from the policy of his predecessors, if possible or if thought necessary, he intended to introduce. It was definitely stated in this House by the Minister for Finance that it was in the knowledge of the Party now in power that an adequate defence force could be established and maintained for a sum of less than three-quarters of a million pounds. The sum asked for this year is £1,253,314. That is after the Minister has had a full year to discover the necessities of the case and see what economies, if any, could be made. The Minister for Finance who was then Deputy MacEntee, speaking in this House on the 25th October, 1928, Vol 26, col. 978 of the Official Report, said:—

We believe we can maintain an Army—an Army adequate to the needs of the country—for a sum of something less than a million; in fact, for a sum something less than three-quarters of a million—and we speak on this matter not without the book.

Now that the Minister has been in power for a year he does not show any inclination to reduce the cost of the Army to the figure mentioned by his colleague, the Minister for Finance. Possibly if the Minister for Finance had his way that reduction would take place. The Minister and members of his Party in the course of a debate on this Estimate frequently challenged the previous Government as to their intentions in maintaining an Army at all, and as to their policy with regard to the eventual taking over of coastal defence from the British, as provided for in the Treaty. They taunted the previous Government with the existence of the Treaty ports. Now that the Fianna Fáil Party is in power one hoped that they would have made up their minds as to their policy with regard to the Treaty ports and coastal defence. From what the Minister has so far said, we have no information in that respect.

The Estimate is very little different from the Estimate of last year. The few changes with regard to the decreases have been drawn attention to by the Minister. There is one decrease however which perhaps might need some explanation and that is under sub-head C.—pay of civilians attached to units. On page 292 we find that there are 350 tradesmen, helpers, etc., and that last year they were paid £54,600 but this year they are only to be paid £52,780. This results evidently from the cut in the wages of these tradesmen. It is not a very large sum in each case but I presume it is part of the Minister's policy.

The Minister has mentioned the expenses of the Equitation team and I am glad he pays a tribute to the officers who have taken part in it, and to the valuable work they are doing. It was a very different story a few years ago when members of his Party, and even the Vice-President, ridiculed the Army jumping teams at that time. I am glad there is a change of heart. With regard to general stores and warlike stores, I am glad to see that there is an increase, particularly with regard to the aviation section. That is more than necessary and is, at any rate, an increase which is fully justified. With regard to warlike stores there is a re-vote of £2,000. There is no mention of such an item in last year's Estimates. It is a very curious thing to put down in any Estimates, a re-vote for warlike stores when it did not appear last year. Presumably it refers to some item not previously mentioned or thought of when the Estimates for the Army were introduced last year. Perhaps it refers to the Russian bear skins, which were made in England, and which were worn by soldiers not with fixed bayonets but with drawn swords, in order to protect the members of the Executive Council from the infuriated people of Dublin on a national holiday. I do not think that would be a reason for having these unmentionable and unnamed warlike stores.

There are other items which show a slight increase. I notice that there is a very considerable decrease with regard to the Army reserve. When the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill was before this House a few weeks ago I asked the Minister if he had any information as to the provision of technical instruction for members of the Officers Training Corps, as a scheme for that purpose had been devised some years ago, which I was particularly anxious would be revived, so that members of the Officers Training Corps, in particular, would be given an opportunity of becoming familiar with the aviation section of the Army. The Minister in the course of his reply on other matters forgot to answer my question. When he is replying now, I would be very glad if he could say whether there is any hope that in the course of the coming year members of the O.T.C. would have an opportunity of learning to fly, and the various technical sides of aerial war- fare, at any rate in a rudimentary way, during the period of their training in that corps.

The Vote as a whole is much the same as those introduced by the Minister's predecessor, and the sum asked for is not substantially different. There is, I am glad to say, a great difference between the sum asked for and the sum which the Minister for Finance stated would be sufficient to carry on the Army.

Mr. Kent

I am against this Vote, as I consider that the huge sum of £1,253,314 for the keeping up of an Army is a waste of public money which this country cannot afford at present. It is an outrageous burden on the taxpayers, when we consider that farmers are groaning under the burden of taxation, to have to pay one and a quarter millions to a pack of ne'er-do-wells-that is what I call them-swanking around our cities and towns with Sam Brown belts and brass buttons. They are no other use as far as I can see to the State. Even if there was an invasion threatened in the morning by a foreign country, what would be the use of this Army as an Army of defence? Why, they would be scrapped up like a lot of mushrooms that grow in a summer's night! It would be advisable for the Executive Council considerably to reduce this Estimate and to put those men to more useful reproductive work. There are several ways and means of doing it. There is a lot of untenanted and unreclaimed land which could be turned to some profitable use for the State if you put these men to cultivate it, and to raise food for the starving and hungry people we have in the Saorstát at present.

There are one or two items in the Estimate to which I should like to call attention. We have the same old vexatious bonus paid to these highly salaried officials from the Minister down. I find in this Estimate alone a sum of £15,454 is given in bonuses to those officials. I say it is an appalling state of affairs to have this Army at such considerable expense to the taxpayers while the unfortunate people are practically down and out owing to the present policy of the Government. I think the Minister and the President would be very well advised to scrap the Army for we can no longer afford to keep such a luxury, as these gentlemen are, in the country. We cannot afford to keep these men here as an ornament to the State. I have no love for any army, but if I were in a position in the morning I would make every young man in Ireland a soldier of the State by giving him a military training. That would be no expense to the State. If these men had to undergo three or four hours' training every morning before their breakfasts, I can assure the Minister they would soon lose whatever little anxiety they have to shoulder a rifle or a bag on their backs. I am sure they would very quickly shun the rifle and the kit. The Army, I propose, could be under the control of the Government of the country. By getting a volunteer Army in the country, we could save millions for the unfortunate ratepayers who are groaning under the burden of taxation. They can no longer afford such a luxury as this Army. I offer my protest as regards this Estimate.

General MacEoin

There are just one or two questions which I should like to ask the Minister. I should like to know from him what is the latest development in relation to the munitions factory about which he expressed himself so strongly in the past. Secondly, I should like to know how far we have advanced in the formation of the National Guard. I notice that the President stated at Ennis when some ex-Volunteers marched past him, that they did not march as well as in the days gone by. I would like further to say that I am glad that the Minister has paid tribute to the value of the Equitation School. I trust of course that Deputy Kent is not expressing the views of the Farmers' Party in what he said. For a man who does not want an Army, he travelled a very long road in a short time. He gave expression to views that even the most extreme militarist would not dare to utter at the moment. He was a pro-conscriptionist. If he represents the views of the Farmers' Party on that matter, I would recommend the Minister to take that into account. It might do some good.

Mr. Kent

My views are not in favour of conscription. I never believed in conscription. What I wished to commend to the House was this, that every young man in Ireland, just as the young men in Africa and other foreign countries, should get a military training. It would be of a great service to himself and a great saving of money to the State, but as regards conscripts, conscripts had never, if I might be allowed to use the term, the "guts" to face an army.

Mr. Cosgrave

There are one or two points to which I should like to call the Minister's attention. On page 289 there is a figure of £8,121 for 42 commandants last year. I think that should be £18,000 odd. The Minister referred to the hireage rather than to the purchase of horses. I should like him to develop that point in his concluding remarks. Like some other speakers who have referred to the Equitation School, I should like also to pay a tribute to the wonderful efficiency of the officers of the Equitation School. The men and the horses are turned out splendidly. They are a credit to the country. They were good horses; they were well ridden, and the results show that they have made their mark. I think it would be rather a pity that the Army should discontinue the purchase of horses. After all, at the present moment sales of horses throughout the country are perhaps at a lower ebb than they have been for some years. While the tariff war is on that must be a very considerable drawback to the farmers. I think an institution like the Army would be better equipped to buy animals of this kind than most other people, and they would thus give the people an opportunity of selling these animals.

Some of the horses which have taken part in shows in other countries have been very much admired, and I understand some very fancy prices have been offered for them. While I can understand that the quality of horses in the Equitation School should be kept at a very high standard, I think it would be no harm when we have a good animal to effect a good sale. It is an advertisement for the products of the State. I presume all those animals are sound. I would much prefer to see a small number of horses sold from the country than to get a fancy price for horses that are not sound. There is no country in the world that has such a reputation for horses as we have, and with the opportunities there are in the Army for maintaining the stud at a proper number, I would even forego an occasional win in order to get us that advertisement in other countries which the sale of good animals might effect.

It is also right to say that there is another institution in the Army, namely, the Band, which has earned very great praise from those who have had the privilege of listening to it. While not wishing to detract in any way from the honours which have been won by the Equitation School, it is only right that on an occasion such as this favourable mention should also be made of the Band.

I should like the Minister to say that in the present circumstances, and in view of the difficulties with which breeders of horses have to contend in selling them, that the Army will continue purchasing for the present year.

Mr. Aiken

Dealing with Deputy Cosgrave's point about hired horses, this does not cover the horses used by a jumping team.

Mr. Cosgrave

I know.

Mr. Aiken

It does not mean that the Army will purchase fewer horses than heretofore. It simply means that for the manoeuvres this year and the manoeuvres we hope to have in the future it is necessary to have a few extra horses for a couple of months. It is cheaper and it will suit the farmers better if we hire their horses for the payment of a small sum. They will have the use of the horses for the remainder of the year; they will have to give them up only for a month or so and they will get a good price for so doing. The horses will be well cared for in the Army and they will go back better than they came in. I believe it will suit the Army and the owners of the horses that they should be hired for that period.

Mr. Cosgrave

The purchases are down several hundreds of pounds.

Mr. Aiken

It is not the policy to discontinue the purchase of horses for the Equitation School. My own view is that the best horses in the country should be got, because they have a better chance of being shown abroad than ordinary horses. I think it unwise that we should sell the best horses we have, even though we get a good price for them. We must either win in a jumping competition or not be in it at all. We cannot afford to go to Germany, America or any other country and put up a bad show. The ordinary people of a country do not pay much attention to the general good level of the horses if they do not see them bringing in a ribbon now and then.

It will be admitted that for the smallness of the team quite a number of prizes were got last year. I read out the list of first and second prizes that the team secured last year. It shows an increase on previous years and it indicates that the team is going ahead.

Deputy MacEoin spoke about the National Guard and also about the munition factory. The position with regard to the munition factory is that for several months Army engineers have been in consultation with civilians who are experts in munition work and they have decided on a plan. Tenders are at the moment being considered in connection with the factory. Of course no expenditure in regard to it will be undertaken until the Dáil votes the cash. The same thing applies to the Volunteers. That would be a new departure, and if it comes to a head the Dáil will get an opportunity of expressing an opinion about it.

Deputy Kent says we cannot afford the Army. My own opinion is that we cannot afford to be without an army at the moment. We are all peace lovers, but we cannot afford to shut our eyes to the fact that we have to have a defence force in this country and that it should be the best possible that we can produce. Deputy Esmonde talked about the general defence policy and thought that there was not much change. There has been a change. Even the slight changes in the Estimates are based on a plan to get the Army reorganised within five years on the best possible basis, on a systematic basis, so that we can utilise the resources of the country, to the best of our ability, for its defence. We are not looking for a fight with anybody, but we must be prepared to defend the country against aggression, no matter whence that aggression comes.

Deputy Esmonde said the cost of the Army was not reduced. It has been reduced by about £63,000. I am sorry it has been. I think the £63,000 could have been very well spent. The re-vote in respect of warlike stores is not covering up any sinister plot for British manufactured hats or anything like that. As a matter of fact, the busbies were manufactured in Ireland. It is simply a re-vote of money that was not spent last year. Deputy Esmonde also spoke about aviation and said that members of the Officers' Training Corps should get an opportunity of training in aviation. That has been done; arrangements are being made for that.

Mr. Cosgrave

There was no item down for warlike stores last year.

Mr. Aiken

There was.

Mr. Esmonde

There was a general item.

Mr. Aiken

About £51,000. It has gone up to £56,000.

Vote agreed to.