Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 16 Feb 1934

Vol. 50 No. 11

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 3—Department of President of the Executive Council (Resumed).

Debate resumed on Vote No. 3— Department of President of the Executive Council (The President).

Mr. Belton

On the adjournment yesterday evening I was dealing with the high pretensions of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who claimed that this Information Bureau, Press Bureau, Publicity Bureau, or whatever technical name may ultimately be affixed to it, was essential in order that the Fianna Fáil policy should be known in this country and outside it. As is usual with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, he claimed that everything that is national in policy belongs to his Party and that we, in this Party, have been taking some items from it. Deputy Norton in replying to Deputy MacDermot produced records showing that the previous Government had some kind of Publicity or Information Bureau in the years 1923-1925. I wonder was the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the present Government practising at that period the great economic policy that they now claim to have and that they accused us of having taken up? Two great points in the economic policy laboured by the Minister for Industry and Commerce last evening were wheat and beet. I wonder how much wheat and beet were troubling the Government Party in the years 1923-1925? It might be information to the Minister and his Party to be told that the case was made for wheat in 1925 and for beet in 1925 and not a solitary member of the Government Party participated in these experiments or had anything to do with their promotion. The members who had to do with them are members of the United Ireland Party now and whatever credit is to be claimed for those two policies of wheat and beet we can claim it. These were experiments, but the Party opposite have no information except that, regardless of expense, these two crops can be successfully grown in this country. That is all that the experimental stage has yet taught. The experiments have not taught that they can be grown economically, but I am not going to question the fact that they are useful crops grown in a general agricultural economy.

The President, in introducing the Vote, said in effect that this country is libelled through reports getting into the foreign Press about threatened revolution here and he wants, apparently, to counter those false reports. That is a praiseworthy object, but there are other methods nearer the President's hands that he fails to adopt. I shall give him one instance of what occurred in the streets of Dublin on last Friday evening. I was one of four people who were beset by a mob in Duke Street and Dawson Street. We caught two of them and offered them to the Guards but the Guards refused to take them. I am not going to give the Deputy's name, but one of them claimed to be a nephew of a Fianna Fáil Deputy. I hope that the statement of that man is wrong for the honour of this House because we all would feel ashamed of it, no matter to what Party the Deputy belonged, if the statement were true. I intend to tell the Deputy, who is a personal friend of mine, to inquire into it but I shall pursue it no further. I am not concerned with that aspect of it. What I am concerned with is the fact that the Guards told us that they could not take them in charge when a mob came up saying to us: "There are the murderers; there are the members of the murder gang." When public representatives of the City of Dublin are accosted in that way and the persons are caught and handed over to the Guards and the Guards are not in a position to take them in charge I cannot understand it. If such a condition of affairs is allowed to obtain I look upon it as the breeding ground for revolution. I told the Guards that I would put down a question in the Dáil. I have been considering whether or not I should put down a question. I think I have said enough about it now without putting down a question.

The President

Put down a question. If you took the numbers of the Guards let us know the numbers of the Guards who refused to do their duty. It was their duty.

Mr. Belton

I do not know their duty in a matter like that. I am giving you the circumstances briefly as they occurred. If in the opinion of the President or the responsible Minister they have not done their duty and the President invites me to bring it before the notice of the Government by a Parliamentary question, I certainly will put down a question.

The President

I do invite you.

Mr. Belton

I am sure that the President and the Government will see that the Guards will do their duty and I shall facilitate them. I shall not give the names, but as one of these persons was being examined by the Guards the other came up and said to me: "Belton, if anything happens that man you will get a letter." I caught him by the neck and brought him up to the Guards and said: "You will go with this other fellow; whatever happens this fellow will happen you." That was obviously a reference to a threatening letter, I suppose to be followed by something more stern. It is very little use to tax the people for a Publicity Bureau to counter alleged slanders about this country being on the verge of revolution if conditions like that are allowed to obtain within sight of this House. It was not merely within the proverbial stone's throw but within an actual stone's throw of this House that that happened within the last week.

I doubt if it would redound to the credit or intelligence of this country if a Publicity Bureau were set up to announce to the world that we had decided not to make certain payments to England while in fact we are making them. No attempt has been made to controvert that. We are engaged in a war and we are going to send out propaganda about that war to the world. The first war I remember was the Spanish-American war, followed by the Boer war, the Russian-Japanese war and the little wars in the Balkans until we came to the Great War. The countries engaged in these wars all had their agencies for the issuing of propaganda to the world. Presumably this is intended to be a war measure and to be our propaganda agency for the world. If we have any sense and are going to get any respect from the outside world we ought to fight this war or give it up. There is no half-way house between cutting off all supplies from Great Britain and settling the dispute. It is silly nonsense to be taxing the people of this country to subsidise exports to Great Britain while we are sending orators round the country telling the people that we are starving Great Britain. We had Deputy Hugo Flinn and others yesterday chastising the Party on this side of the House for want of intelligence in claiming that tariffs on goods going into a country are paid by the country that exports the goods. Is not that perfectly obvious? Tariffs were put on and more goods than were wanted were sent in. They had to curtail the quantity going in. When tariffs are put on it is only when there is a shortage of supplies that the country to which the goods are going will pay any part of the tariff. Notwithstanding the tariffs in Great Britain we sent Great Britain more of these goods than they actually wanted. Therefore, the British citizens paid none of the tariffs. The returns have been published and, while a vulgar attempt, I must say, was made by Deputy Flinn and the Minister for Finance to make light of the figures published on the other side as to the book-keeping in this transaction, no attempt has been made to controvert the figures. These figures demonstrate one thing, that in the so-called war which is going on we are losing all along the line. The only second line of defence or alternative method of warfare that the President can conceive is to establish a Propaganda Bureau to tell the world how successful we are in the warfare when the world knows that we are fighting a losing game.

Mr. Anthony

What does the world care?

Mr. Belton

Not tuppence.

Mr. Anthony

Do not labour that point any further.

Mr. Belton

I only want to labour it because it has been laboured on the other side. If you take up any daily paper and look at the news from any country in the world you will see that every country is preoccupied with its own business and not bothering about us here.

Mr. Anthony

They will not know where we are.

Mr. Belton

The President laughs assent to that. Why is he anxious to set up a Publicity Bureau then to tell them about this country? He knows as well as, and perhaps better than, anyone in this House that the world will not bother to read his publicity stuff when sent out from 2DV. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in a truculent and eloquent mood last evening, said that we had stolen their wheat policy from them. He forgot, of course, that they stole it from the people, but we pass over that.

Perhaps the President might tell us in some simpler fashion than by establishing this Bureau, and taxing the people in order to establish it, what the people who have thousands of acres of wheat stubble, following up his wheat policy, are to do with it. He knows that wheat is only a preliminary to other developments in agriculture and those other branches of agriculture must be paying concerns, because human food out of the land will not be 20 per cent. of the entire production and human food cannot be economically produced unless animal food, produced directly and as a by-product of human food, is utilised at a profit. The Government appear to want a Publicity Bureau to put over their propaganda on the country. I submit this is urgent propaganda; but it is propaganda that the President and his Ministers are carefully side-tracking, because they are now up against the kernel of the whole problem. I do not want to go into an agricultural discussion on a Vote of this kind.

If this were to be used as a national Publicity Bureau I do not think there would be any division of opinion upon it. But it is going to be used as a kind of super publicity agency, over and above the ordinary Press of the country, in order to put over the propaganda of a political Party. I do not say that because a certain political Party is in power. It would only be natural if another political Party came into power that they would use it in the same way. A bad precedent will be set. In the early days of the Sinn Féin movement, some 30 years ago, I remember being one of a deputation sent to interview the authorities connected with the Bloomsbury Town Hall in London. Our object then was to set up a Press Bureau in order to send out our stuff to the world. I am not sure that the world was so terribly worried about what we sent out. We attempted it, anyway, because we had great, high and important notions about ourselves in those days.

Mr. S. Brady

Apparently they were never lost.

Mr. Belton

I must say that some success attended the efforts of various Irish groups all over the world at that time. I strongly suggest to the President that when, in a matter of this kind, they want to buttress up their case, they should not always be dragging in their economic policy when they know that that economic policy is throttled now by their own actions. I could adumbrate on that, but I see it is not relevant beyond the mere mention of it and, besides, I will have scope later on, perhaps during this day, to refer to that matter. I just want to mention the need for attending to that end of the policy when they think it worth their while to introduce it at all. If this Bureau is set up, I hope an assurance will be given to the House in regard to the nature of the documents to be issued from it. I presume bulletins will be issued. If so, we must not have those bulletins as a sort of Eleventh Commandment—that they must be obeyed and that it will be a sin against the State and Church if they are not obeyed. If anything like that is attempted it will reduce the Press of this country to subserviency and it will mean the abolition of freedom of the Press. I hope the President has not been tempted to set up this Bureau because of the ground that his paper is losing.

Mr. Minch

I presume that the necessity for a Bureau of Information has been forced on the President by reason of two definite ideas. Is it because the material for home consumption has not got enough martial spirit behind it or is it that the material for consumption outside this country is not aggressive enough or strong enough? We all know that such opportunities as we got at Ottawa may not occur again for this country to get away with a certain amount of political propaganda. We all know that the wonderful opportunity that was given to the representatives of Saorstát Eireann on the League of Nations has gone by the board and we all know that the London Conference will not be renewed within the next few years. Thus it is that the Government are now endeavouring to establish something to try to take the place of these opportunities that they had; they are now anxious to issue bulletins or communiques from Government Buildings once a week, twice a week or every day in the week.

Deputy Norton, the enigma of this House, who weeps bitter tears and makes appeals to the Government on behalf of those whose wages and salaries are to be reduced, says that as long as this Government co-operates with him he will co-operate with them. He walked in here last night and immediately applauded and supported an appeal for £1,000 a year to be given to this Bureau of Information. Then he proceeded to make an unwarranted attack on the Opposition here who opposed the Government's proposal. He endeavoured to make out that this Bureau of Information is going to counter the Rothermere Press, the Beaverbrook Press, is going to be read in Tokyo, is going to uplift the unfortunate, untouchable class in India and is going to take the Hearst Press in America by storm. One would imagine that this information that would be issued from this country would receive caption lines in the leading newspaper chain organisations of this world and that this Bureau will ultimately bring truth, knowledge and light to the whole world, show what we are and show that we are fighting for our bare existence, that we are being downtrodden, that we are not free or independent, that we are still slaves and that we are living in serfdom. All this high-faluting political claptrap is to be sent all through the country. The great national hero, the great national patriot to-day is Deputy Norton. He is the one and the only real national patriot outside the President himself. He walks in step with him. He is trying to put before the world what a wonderful Party Fianna Fáil are and that the Labour Party are and always have been even better than Fianna Fáil. This is nothing more than political propaganda. It is nothing more than bolstering up more than ever the sort of dope stuff that is being disseminated around the country by the Government organ.

Now we are going to have sent out and paid for by the taxpayers of this country all this sort of thing and the effort is being made to prove that it is a national question and not a Party question. Surely this is not the time to be spending £1,000 a year for political Party propaganda. We heard Deputy Norton getting up here and making unwarrantable references to the Press, digging up certain things that took place in the past for the simple reason that the Press to which he objects has not made a marvellous hero of him and hailed him as the saviour of the country. Deputy Norton could have gone further and brought in very many county councils and urban councils of that period. But no. The Deputy made references to Deputy Fitzgerald and charged that he was trying to fan the sparks of the civil war, bring them in here and fight again the battle in words. Then having fired that pile of ammunition across the House he sits down. All the time he has been shouting, he forgets the people who have to make sacrifices by cuts in their pay and salaries. Surely it is about time that this sort of thing stopped. As far as I can see this information that is going to be given out by this Press Bureau will be in the interests of the Government Party. I do not know whether the Bureau will act as a Press censor. It might. I say that this Vote shows that the Executive Council are nothing more than a bunch of political bandits using the money of the taxpayers of the country for their own selfish ends.

Mr. McGovern

I would like to say a word or two about this Vote. Might I ask first of all what is the need for this Bureau at the present moment? Heretofore the Irish Press was no doubt the organ of the Government Party. That is an unquestionable fact and I can furnish proof of it. When a Deputy in this House some time ago made an attack upon one of the leaders of the Opposition, which was blazoned in the Irish Press, I replied to that attack and sent that part of my speech to the Irish Press, but it was not inserted. I think that shows that beyond question the Irish Press is a Party organ. That being the case, how comes it to be necessary that this Press Bureau should be established here for Party purposes? I can tell you why. It is because the circulation of the Irish Press has gone down. The paper is not being read in the country notwithstanding the fact that some of the agents are forcing it on the people.

An Ceann Comhairle

I had yesterday to remind three Deputies that neither the circulation nor the policy of the Irish Press is in order in this debate.

Mr. McGovern

Very well. I will not pursue that matter. I will merely say that the reason for this Vote is the fact that when the people will not take to the present propaganda of the Government Party this propaganda is to be sent out and it is to be applied like forcible feeding. I tell the Government that a policy of forcible feeding will not succeed. Where voluntary propaganda has failed, this Government propaganda that is sought to be rushed down the throats of the people will not succeed any more than the voluntary propaganda. The people are already well served by the Press in this country. There is plenty of propaganda from both sides. So long as it is open to the people it is for the people to make a choice. It is because things are going against the Government Party that they are making this attempt to get in something extra at the expense of the taxpayers as a whole. Of course asking for this Vote is in keeping with the general policy. This is only one side of Government policy. The other is the attempt to prevent the Opposition being heard at public meetings. We know that every effort is made to prevent the leaders of the Opposition from addressing the electors. Now we have side by side with that attempt this other attempt to subsidise propaganda at the expense of the taxpayers. I am quite confident that that sort of thing will not succeed. I do not know what sort of propaganda this Bureau will issue or for what it will be used. I expect it will deal with the industrial policy of the Government. It will no doubt explain the benefits of the agricultural policy to this country. That will be broadcast. But I wonder will they be able to tell the farmers down the country who are unable to meet their liabilities and unable to dispose of their stock at the fairs that this is for their benefit— will they tell the people who are unable to get a remunerative price for what they produce how they are to find a solution of their difficulties. I wonder will they be able to convince the farmers that they are more prosperous now than when they were getting economic prices for their produce? Will they be able to convince the unfortunate people in Cavan who are unemployed that the few factories set up in Dublin are a benefit to them? The fact is that not one person from that county has been able to get employment in any of those factories that have been started. In Cavan itself only one factory has been started. It is true that that factory is giving employment to ten girls at the princely remuneration of 6/- a week. Are these the things that this valuable Press Bureau is to broadcast to the people of the country? If so, I am quite satisfied that the people of the country who of late are not taking voluntarily to the Fianna Fáil propaganda will not take to it when it is being shoved down their throats by this Press Bureau.

Mr. Cosgrave

We have heard the various reasons that have been put forward in support of the case for this Vote which is by the way for £148. That to the nearest fraction would be for one-sixth of a year at a yearly salary of £900. I do not know whether we are to take it that this officer is already in office or that he is being paid or has been paid any money. The purposes for which the Vote is being put forward were referred to last night by various speakers including the President who introduced the vote. It is to embrace practically every activity of every Department of this State so far as one can judge. It is to deal with the annuities, with the colour of the bread we eat and with the policy of the Government in its various prospects and activities. Apparently it is to have a knowledge not alone of the policy but of the details of the policy and to make them presentable, I presume, to people at home and abroad. The best explanation that could be given, I suppose, by the President in introducing this Vote is that this officer is going to be a sieve; that he is to get information from various Departments; that he is to put that in a more palatable form than the Ministers are themselves able to put it, and that it is to be dressed up for consumption in that order. Such a new departure of State certainly forces one to the conclusion that the Government political organ has been a failure; that the Government speakers and back-benchers, and their supporters in the House, the Labour Party, have been utterly unequal to the task that they have undertaken; and that failure distinguishes and characterises everything that they touch, everything that they have touched and everything that they say.

Much play was made by some of the speakers who addressed themselves to this Vote on the history of this country during the last ten years. It is characteristic of speakers on the Government side that no matter what subject they are putting before the House, no matter what the recommendation, they have some sort of criticism to pass on the events of the years that transpired before they took up office. The strange thing about the development of their policy is that with the exception of wheat and tobacco everything else is a slavish imitation of somebody else. This Vote in itself is, perhaps, the most slavish tribute that they could pay to the British during the War. What is there the matter with ordinary Ministers of State that they cannot themselves go out and talk about their policy, or get their supporters to do it, or get the Labour Party to help them, or get their political organisation to do it? Is it the fact that their own organ is not circulated to their satisfaction, and that they realise that something extra must be done? The introduction of the word "revolution" here yesterday would have astonished anybody who had been listening to Ministers for the last two years. For two years we have been told that there was nothing in the world like the peace that broke out here since they took office. Why even their own political organ had to address themselves to that subject on Monday or Tuesday last. One would imagine that they had been sleeping for two years and had now discovered that there was something to talk about.

In the course of a speech which was made here by one of the Parliamentary Secretaries, reference was made to the fact that the President had followed the precedent established by me during my time of office, when he would not go out after the guns. I am not going to discuss for the moment whether or not it was that they approved of the policy which they thought I had pursued, and that that was the reason why they did not do it, or whether it was that they were unequal to having a policy of their own, but in the course of a discussion here in this House on the 9th August last, the Minister for Justice read a report which he stated he had received from the Commissioner of the Gárdaí. Included in that report of General O'Duffy there is this statement, which they say came from the chief superintendent of Tipperary:

"It is certain, however, that Mr. Jerry Ryan could, should the occasion arise, muster a fair number of the arms taken from the Templemore Military Barracks during the Mutiny."

I know Colonel Jerry Ryan. He has no arms. He has control of no arms, and no arms were taken from Templemore Military Barracks which were not returned. He was particularly anxious that that statement should be made here when he heard of this report. I draw attention again to the wording of this report:

"It is certain, however, that Mr. Jerry Ryan could, should the occasion arise, muster a fair number of the arms taken from the Templemore Military Barracks during the Mutiny."

Those arms were returned.

"Mr. Ruttledge: It continues: ‘Should it at any time desire to adopt other than constitutional methods, it can, without doubt, lay hands on a sufficient quantity of arms and ammunition to render it a very formidable insurrectionary force and a source of extreme danger to the peace and stability of the country.'"

That refers to the A.C.A., or the National Guard, and it at no time desired to adopt other than constitutional methods. "It can, without doubt, lay hands on a sufficient number of arms and ammunition to render it a very formidable insurrectionary force and a source of extreme danger to the peace and stability of the country." Mark the words: "Should it at any time desire to adopt other than constitutional methods." It at no time desired, and never will desire to have other than constitutional methods, because its whole history and tradition and the history and tradition of every person in association with it stand against the use of unconstitutional methods, and have done so for the last 12 years at great costs to themselves and their families and their friends. I repudiate absolutely any justification for any Minister or any member of the Fianna Fáil Party saying that during my term of office I allowed, or permitted, or countenanced, or condoned the possession of arms except under lawful authority, and I would advise them to do the same.

On Saturday last, there was a meeting in No. 44 Parnell Square of engineers or other persons acting in that capacity, belonging to an organisation that has been condemned as unlawful by the Catholic Hierarchy in this country. It may be lawful according to the legal advisers of the Government; it is unlawful according to the Church subscribed to and supported by the vast majority in this country. On that same Saturday officers of State in the pay of the Government of the State entered the premises known as No. 5 Parnell Square, which were closed by order of the Military Tribunal and are not available for use by the persons who own them. The Military Tribunal and the President of the Executive Council and the Attorney-General and all the Ministers of State have not the power under any Act, omnipotent or otherwise, to give any person authority to enter those premises which do not belong to them, for their use and benefit. From No. 5 Parnell Square those officers of State, with the use of field glasses, kept No. 44 Parnell Square under observation. The meeting that was held there was for the purpose of giving instruction in the use and construction of a land mine which was to be exploded on the following day. That might be assumed to be in the County Dublin, but the only explosion which took place in this country on the following day was in Dundalk. When dealing with these matters in this House the Ministry which is now looking for money to use for propagandist purposes should let this House and the country get the report of the police authorities as to why those premises, 44 Parnell Square, were not raided on that particular evening. By what right and by what authority did police officers enter a premises closed by order of the Military Tribunal? Is the Executive Council above the law?

An Ceann Comhairle

The question of the right of police officers to enter any premises is not relevant to the establishment of an Information Bureau.

Mr. Cosgrave

With great respect, sir, reference was made last evening to the censoring of a publication in this country. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Flinn, referred to that question at great length. He wanted to know whether it was by order of the Executive Council that censoring took place. He inquired what responsibility the Government had in respect to it. He stated, quite incorrectly, that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government had passed an Act authorising that sort of thing to be done and he practically attempted to absolve the Government of any responsibility, political or otherwise, in respect of that particular matter. It was to be inferred from what he said that it was by order of the Military Tribunal that that censoring had taken place. This is a vote for publicity matters in connection with the administration. The administration appeared before the Military Tribunal to close the premises, No. 5 Parnell Square, and succeeded in getting those premises closed, notwithstanding an application by Deputy Dillon to have them reopened. This Vote is for publicity on the part of the Government. A considerable amount of publicity has already been directed towards the censoring of the newspaper in question and I submit that I am entitled to draw the attention of the Government to a breach of the law and to ask whether or not a defence in respect of that breach of the law by them will be one of the matters to be dealt with by the officer to be appointed under this Vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yesterday the Chair submitted that if that line of argument were followed, every activity of every Government Department, every aspect of Government policy, might be raised on this Vote. Any Deputy might submit that the economic condition, for instance, of County Cavan or the number of unemployed in Ballina, might be discussed for half-an-hour on the query whether that should be a matter to be dealt with by the Bureau. The incident referred to by the Deputy who is in possession would, I submit, be more properly the subject of a Parliamentary question to elicit the information which he requires. Instead of arguing that it is a matter for the Bureau, the Deputy has asked the President certain questions as to the facts. The President is not the officer of this Information or Publicity Bureau.

Mr. Cosgrave

He is not the officer, but it is under his Departmental Vote that this officer will function and it is in respect of the policy pursued by the President and his Ministry that this officer will disseminate information. One of the items, and a very important item, in connection with the duties of this officer will be to endeavour to put some cover on the Government policy in respect of the persecution they have indulged in of the ex-Commissioner of the Gárda. There is victimisation there; there is persecution there and so on.

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to get this perfectly clear. The alleged victimisation of General O'Duffy does not arise on this Vote.

Mr. Cosgrave

Very good. The annuities are in order because they were one of the subjects specifically mentioned.

An Ceann Comhairle

Brief reference may be made to the subject.

Mr. Cosgrave

I will make one short reference to them. I presume it will not be out of order to refer to what is described—humorously, I suppose, but nevertheless described—as the legal opinion on the matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is ill advised in asking the indulgence of the Chair in advance.

Mr. Cosgrave

On a certain page, page 12, of "The reply of counsel consulted by the National Executive of Fianna Fáil to the arguments advanced in respect of the action of the late Government in paying a sum equivalent to the Land Commission annuities to England" we find:

"We may add that the state of Ireland in the years 1920-21, the Anglo-Irish war, the prohibition by Dáil Eireann of the payment of annuities, the non-collection and impossibility of collection of the annuities during those years, the outstanding fact that, to all intents and purposes, the annuities were a lost asset to the British, and the fact that the 1920 Act was on the Statute Book, are strong factors to be considered in interpreting the Treaty."

I do not think there was any speaker presiding over the deliberations of counsel when they were drawing up that opinion but I think that if there were he would probably have thrown that out. "The non-collection and the impossibility of collection of annuities during those years"—they were never better collected during the last 12 or 14 years. The collections in the years 1920-21 were bumper collections. The arrears of annuities at that period were less than they were in our history and that is a matter with which I should like the new Bureau officer to deal and explain. I think he might also explain to Ministers at some length that, when making speeches, they should make sure that the subjects to which they undertake to address themselves are sufficiently known to them to enable them to make an intelligent pronouncement. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, speaking down the country some time last year, referred to the fact that butter as good as any that could be produced in this country, from Australia and New Zealand, was selling on the English market for 8d. per lb. That statement was not true either as regards the quality of the butter or the price.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy contend that the price of butter is relevant to this?

Mr. Cosgrave

I am going to connect it up now if you will allow me for a moment, sir. That is where I think this officer could be of great use to the State, if he were to address himself to the quality of the products produced in this country, to the better quality of them, the better marketing of them and the better advantage to purchasers. I have got it in now. In such a case price does not matter. The mistake the Minister makes in his quotation of the price is a negligible matter. Everybody knows they are weak on figures—they always were— and, consequently, a very big responsibility falls on this new officer.

Mr. D. O Briain

He did not make the blunder about the adverse trade balance that the Deputy made.

Mr. Cosgrave

The least said about the adverse trade balance the better. It was never higher than it is now— £16,000,000 with an export of about £3,000,000.

Mr. Cooney

What about the one big nought?

Mr. Cosgrave

The one big nought is something that that Party can never succeed in emulating. In the first place the sum of money in dispute at that time was £150,000,000 and we got out for nothing. The sum in dispute now is about £80,000,000 or £90,000,000, but we are getting out now with our cattle going over and bearing the annuities on their polls or horns. These stupid interruptions react always on those who make them.

Mr. Cooney

They stir up unpleasant memories.

Mr. Cosgrave

No reference whatever was made, in the course of the plea for the appointment of this officer, to the quality of the goods that go out from this country. Why? Is it because we are satisfied, or that we hope that the export market of this country is gone, and gone forever? Why, even recently, when there was an opportunity to sell the products of our Irish distilleries in America no reference whatever came from a single Minister as to the superior quality of Irish whiskey to all others. The dry humbugs that are there on the Front Bench and that cannot appreciate quality or anything else—the Minister for Agriculture has now gone on to milk, and I suppose it is curdling in him—took no opportunity to refer to the superior quality of Irish whiskey, due to this that Irish whiskey is pot-still whiskey. The Americans would be well advised, if they want to provide themselves with a wholesome diet, to pay twice or three times the price for Irish whiskey that they are paying for whiskey from other places. There is nothing to indicate that there has been any activity on the part of this officer in connection with that matter. There is no suggestion either that anything has been done to emphasise the fact that the quality of Irish butter going over fresh to the British market is insuperably better than the butter which comes to it from the ends of the earth.

Mr. MacDermot

And no reference to the superiority of Irish horses.

Mr. Cosgrave

From what I have seen of Ministers who sit on Irish horses they simply make a show of them. Everyone knows the quality of Irish horses. There was no mention of that either in connection with this office, and no mention of the loss that the British themselves are sustaining by reason of the fact that they are not capable of getting into this market here or of stopping anything from coming over here. Last year the amount that we got for horses was only about one-tenth of what we got in previous years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has already ruled that such matters are not relevant to this debate. The Deputy is now trying to discuss in another way all the matters with which this Bureau might deal.

Mr. Cosgrave

Quite, sir. I am putting it that the Government could have made a far better case for this office than the case they have made: that they are going on the wrong line: that they have political spectacles on their eyes and are ignoring the great big questions which are at issue and which it might deal with. What is it for? To put out to the country and to the world a different complexion on events as they are. That is the Government case. Where bread is slightly coloured they want to tell the people that it is in their eyes the colouring is: that the quality of the bread is perfect. I am putting it that if there be a Vote for an officer of this sort there should be a direction as to how his activities might be employed, a slight change in the sphere of his activities, so that there might result some benefit, not alone to the trade of the country but to the general good of the country.

Last night I was scandalised—I have occasionally been on a racecourse—to hear a Deputy want to make a bet, or a wager, which I think is the proper description of a bet, about something that had already happened and was decided. For the information of those who are innocent about transactions of that sort I want to say that a wager can only be about some matter which has not yet been decided: in other words, about a race or an event which is to take place, the result of which is not known to the parties. Anyone who has had experience of honest bookmakers will tell you that they will not take a bet after a race because it has then been decided. The reason is that there is no question of speculation involved, and if one makes a bet in respect of a thing that is already settled he is either welshing or trying to make a welsher of the other party.

Mr. Cooney

On that principle there is no use in you betting that you will ever get into office again in this country.

Mr. Cosgrave

It is so much of a certainty that I would be almost taking your money. As a matter of fact, if one were looking for any indication of that, this Vote is perhaps the surest indication one could have. Reference was made last night to the usefulness of a certain organ. I recollect that after the elections in 1932 practically every single "i" was dotted and every "t" crossed in its reference to the President of the Executive Council. There was no mistake there. There was a reference made to myself. It was very short. It included only what everybody knew: that I had been President of the Executive Council for ten years and then it proceeded to lie— stating that I had been elected M.P. for St. Patrick's division in 1918 or 1919. I object to this Vote. If I were politically-minded I would be delighted and glad to see this office established because it is an indication of the state of mind of the Ministry: that they are weak, tottering, unable for their jobs, unequal to their responsibilities, and entirely unfitted to put their policy before the people.

Donnchadh O Briain

The people do not think that.

Mr. Cosgrave

The people make mistakes now and then. Fortunately for themselves they can correct mistakes they have made.

Donnchadh O Briain

And they have done it.

Mr. Cosgrave

If the purpose was to put plain issues in an honest straightforward way before the country, the only question that would arise in connection with this office is: is it necessary? It is not necessary in our opinion. The people are sufficiently intelligent here to be able to appraise for themselves the value of any and every economic, financial and political proposal put before them. They do not need to be told, say, by this official of the State that the new officers are to be crown soldiers at 5/- a head. They could learn that for themselves. They do not need to be told that if we go in for an extensive tillage policy we must have a market for our live stock and live-stock products. They do not need to be told that if they cannot sell fat cattle in England, or if they have lost the sale of 50 per cent. of these fat cattle in England, they had better let them out on grass and let them become stores. They do not need to be told that if a man gets 15/11, as I have seen on one docket, for an animal sold in England for £6, that that is sound business. It is not sound business and no possible activity of an officer such as this can convince anybody that this country is going to prosper if a man gets 15/11 for an animal which fetches in England £6. They do not need to be told that the fact that sires such as Blandford, Stratford and Trigo are going over to England is benefiting the Irish horse trade. What they really want to be told is when the Government intend to redeem the promise made last year that, when elected to office, the economic war would be immediately settled.

Mr. Keyes

Having heard the long, rambling mass of irrelevancies put forward by the Opposition, it is well to consider what the purpose of this Vote really is. As I understand, it is a Vote for the establishment of a Bureau to give, with authority and truth, information as to the actual policy of the Party controlling the destiny of the country. That there is necessity for that can be gleaned from the remarks —the envenomed and jaundiced remarks—of the Opposition; led by the chief vitriol-thrower, Deputy Desmond Fitzgerald. Other members of the Opposition have shown that they are capable of doing the same thing, even the amiable Deputy MacDermot, who seems to have got contaminated with the virus by association and could find no better epithet to hurl at the President than liar——

Mr. MacDermot

I protest most strongly against the statement that I called the President of the Executive Council a liar.

Mr. Keyes

It was said more suavely. The statement of the Deputy was that he does not, and did not, believe the statement of the President that he was prepared to submit the question to arbitration.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not calling the President a liar.

Mr. Keyes

What I say is that it amounts to the same thing. The Deputy was too suave to put it in that way. The statement made a short time ago was that the nation was led by an "arch-fanatic." I suggest that if these are the terms and titles which the Opposition choose to adopt, it is very necessary that a Press Bureau should be set up to curb the evil machinations of people who, elected to do the business of this State, are trying to bring it down. Deputy Norton spoke of the necessity of an Irish Press Bureau to let the world outside know that this country is going through a period of economic evolution, that we are moving from a policy of grass to a new policy. That should be made known to the people of the world generally. That much is necessary and the necessity has been intensified by the attitude of the Opposition who seem to think and fear that this policy may succeed and, incidentally, the country with it, and that, with the success of the new policy, there will come the damnation of their hopes of ever getting back to office. I suggest that their attitude has been most unpatriotic. That is disclosed by their wild shouting lest the truth may get out. They seem to have only one fear—that the Bureau will be used for Party purposes. They seem to forget that the Party for the moment happens to be the Government and that the new policy of the Fianna Fáil Party is entitled to get a trial, and a fair trial. There seems to be no real objection to the Estimate except the suggestion that the Bureau will be used for Party purposes. As a way out, why not use the Press Bureau for propaganda on behalf of the Cumann na nGaedheal or U.I.P. policy?

Mr. Minch

Or the Labour Party.

Mr. Keyes

If the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party, which has got the support of the country, is such a damnable thing in the eyes of the Opposition, it would be good political business for them to allow the Government to propagate their new ideas to the fullest extent. According to them, that will mean their speedy dissolution. According to the U.I.P., the policy of the Government can lead to nothing but bankruptcy. The wider the publicity for that policy the better for the Opposition, because it will hasten the day when the saviours of the country will come back to office.

It is most regrettable that, on a motion of this kind, five hours should have been spent in the delivery of most venomous speeches by Deputies on the Opposition Front Bench. If we get that type of speech from the Front Bench what can we expect from the back benches and the rank and file down the country? This Vote ought to have been discussed in a reasonable way. Ex-President Cosgrave has devoted out of a speech of 45 minutes the last five minutes to reasoned opposition to the establishment of the Bureau. I think that any impartial listener seated on these benches or in the gallery must be satisfied that if, for no other reason than the bitterness of the Opposition speeches, it is essential that the truth should be told—that it should be known that this country is not going bankrupt, that the productivity of the soil has lost nothing even though the land has lost some of its cash value, that the unemployed who are causing such anxiety to the Opposition—they did not worry them when in office, when they adopted the slogan "No responsibility for the employment of a single man"—are having their interests attended to. The Bureau can inform the world that steps are being taken to see that no man will go hungry in the country while there is a shilling left in the Exchequer. The world can be told that we are getting back, by the scientific application of the labour of our people to production and tillage, to an era of self-sufficiency that has not been reached in 150 years of our history. It is very essential that these things be told so as to remove the mists of calumny by which an attempt is being made to bar the progress of the country under the present regime.

The Attorney-General

I intervene merely to deal with the allegation of Deputy Fitzgerald that we have set up a censorship. I shall explain to the House how it came about that certain passages not printed in this week's United Ireland came before me for consideration and how the printers or editors thought fit to excise these passages.

Mr. Fitzgerald

On instructions from the police.

The Attorney-General

I do not know whether Deputy Fitzgerald, when he made the statement, really understood the position or knew the facts. If he did, I doubt if, merely from the point of view of practical wisdom, he would have attempted to make capital out of what happened. The facts are: On one occasion, the organ of the Opposition printed seditious matter. The Military Tribunal decided that it was seditious and directed its suppression. Since that date, by arrangement with the printer—and, as I understood and the Guards understood, by the agreement of those responsible for the publication. the publishers and editor—a proof copy of the paper was sent each week to the Guards with a view to having it looked at by the Guards and seeing whether there was any matter in it to which objection might be taken. On the day before yesterday, the officer of the Guards who was given this copy brought it to me, and he informed me that it was a proof copy of the paper. I looked through it and said that it seemed to me that certain passages in it amounted to sedition.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Why?

The Attorney-General

I am not going to argue with the Deputy as to why I considered it seditious. I wish the Deputy would not interrupt. The Deputy made an unwarranted attack and at least I might be allowed to reply. I told the officer that he might inform the printers that if they printed the paper with those passages in it I would consider whether an application might not be made to the Military Tribunal in respect to that matter. The officer concerned, I am informed by him, carried out those instructions. He went to the printers and told them that objection was taken to these particular passages. The printer asked: "Am I compelled not to print those passages?" The officer said: "You are not so compelled, but if you do print them an application may be made to the Military Tribunal to deal with the matter." Apparently, as I understand, the printer got in touch with the editor and between them they evidently accepted the view I had taken and decided not to print the passages.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Perhaps the Attorney-General would now move to report progress.

General Mulcahy

If it is in order, sir, I think it would be more satisfactory to everybody to hear the explanation of the Attorney-General now, if he will give it.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I should like to hear his explanation now.

The President

I would ask the House to listen to the completion of the reply of the Attorney-General to the statement made last night. It will only take a few moments more. I do not suggest a debate on the matter.

Mr. Fitzgerald

My information is not identical with that of the Attorney-General.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If there is general agreement that we hear the Attorney-General, and only him, on the matter, the Chair is quite willing to hear him.

General Mulcahy

I think that course would be satisfactory to everybody.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is understood that we only hear the Attorney-General and only with regard to the suppression of certain matters in the paper concerned.

General Mulcahy

Yes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Very good.

Mr. Fitzgerald

As I said before, my information is not identical with the Attorney-General's information.

The Attorney-General

The Deputy will have an opportunity of dealing with that matter afterwards. There is very little to be added to what I have said to-day. My information was verified this morning by the officer concerned, which was to the effect that he distinctly informed the printer that, if he wished to print that matter, it was quite open to him to do so, and that, apparently in agreement with whomever is in charge of the paper—and, judging by the contents of this paper, I should imagine the Deputy had a good deal to do with it and was probably consulted —it was decided not to print the passages. In any case, the result of the consideration of the matter by the printer and his publishers and editor was that these passages were excised voluntarily by the people themselves.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Under threat.

The Attorney-General

The only threat was that if this matter appeared I might consider making an application to the Military Tribunal. Is there anything wrong about that?

Mr. Fitzgerald

Yes.

General Mulcahy

Was there not also the statement of the Attorney-General to the officer that, in his opinion, these passages were seditious?

The Attorney-General

I have already said so.

General Mulcahy

That is a fair tip to the printer.

The Attorney-General

It is possible that I may be guilty of some wrong-doing, but I understood that this was really in ease of the printer—an arrangement they themselves made voluntarily with the Guards. I was only brought in in the way I have mentioned, when the Guard brought the paper to me. I understood the whole matter was voluntarily arranged between the printers and the Guards.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Of course, the printer is up against the tyranny of your own Government.

Mr. Anthony

Would the Attorney-General read for the House the passages excised in this article so that the House might have some opportunity of judging whether they were seditious or not?

Mr. T. Kelly

They were read here last night.

General Mulcahy

The Attorney-General seems to think that the printer was under complete liberty to print these passages if he wished and I would like to get it clear that what happened was that the police officer told the printer: "The Attorney-General's opinion is that this is seditious; you may print it if you like, but, if so, the Attorney-General will consider whether he will not bring you before the Military Tribunal."

The Attorney-General

Yes, that is correct. I move to report progress.

Progress reported.