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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Mar 1934

Vol. 51 No. 5

Wearing of Uniform (Restriction) Bill, 1934—Committee.

1.—In this Act—
the word "uniform" includes any special or distinctive article of apparel whether it is or is not of the nature of a uniform; the word "badge" includes any armlet, emblem, or other distinctive mark and also any flag, banner or device;
the word "wear" includes carry; the word "association" means any combination or association of persons, whether having or not having a definite organisation or having or not having a definite name.
Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 not moved.
2a. In line 18, after the word "uniform," to add the words "but does not include a blue shirt or blouse or jacket or blazer bearing on the left breast the badge of the political organisation known as Fine Gael (United Ireland)."—(Thomas O'Higgins; Risteárd Ua Maolchatha).

Before moving amendment No. 2a I should like to begin by addressing to the Government Benches the question which I asked before, namely, is there not enough undetected crime and are there not enough criminals in this country already without this Parliament of ours being engaged, day after day, in the attempt to create a new class of crime and inviting at least the creation of a new set of criminals in this country? I put down this amendment asking for exemption of the blue shirt or blouse of the Fine Gael organisation, the organisation that carries out the teachings of Fine Gael. I put down this amendment asking for the exemption of the blue shirt or blouse, not in any hope that it would be granted, not in any hope that a majority of this House would be found in favour of that amendment, but in order to bring out quite clearly the intention in this Bill, that it is a Bill designed for the simple purpose of victimising political opponents and impeding the political machinery of the Opposition Party in this country. The Minister for Justice, in introducing this Bill, to an extent told us that. He told us that, in fact, this Bill was aimed at the Blue Shirts; that it was framed and introduced for the purpose of making illegal the wearing of blue shirts. I say that the reason why that is done is not because the Blue Shirt organisation is militarily dangerous but because the Blue Shirt organisation is politically successful and that this Bill is introduced not to save the State but to save the Fianna Fáil Party from political extermination.

There was some little chance last September when the first lash of the Government whip fell on the backs of the members of that organisation. There was some little hope then that the general public, that the decent men or women outside politics and looking on impartially, might be satisfied that there was some real reason, that there was some military method, that there was some menace to the State in this organisation. But the months and the days which have come and gone since have clearly proved to any impartial man, to any decent man or woman that there is nothing menacing to the State in the Blue Shirt organisation; that, on the contrary, one of the factors of which this State could be proud—no matter what Government sits over there —is the fibre and mentality of the types that go to make up the Blue Shirt organisation. Many months have passed since the first Government ban was placed on that organisation and since the first Government bogey was started throughout the country. Propaganda to the effect that we were contemplating a coup d'état, that we were a military organisation with ex-soldiers and young civilians, importing arms and distributing arms and with the intention of putting over there, by the aid of arms, a Government for this country. At the time we could only emphatically contradict that and emphatically deny that. But now we are in the position not only of denying that but we are in the position of pointing to our records, pointing to our teachings and challenging the Minister over there to produce a single utterance, one statement, one line of print to justify that assertion so recklessly advanced last September. Every document, every letter written, every instruction issued, every pamphlet sent from the organisation is in the custody of the Minister for Justice. Every document, every letter was taken over by his agents in the course of the various raids that took place on our premises. I might suggest to the Minister for Justice that there was no necessity for any of these raids. There was no necessity for any of this panic-mongering. On the very first day that the Army Comrades' Association was established we invited the police to come to every meeting. We invited them to come into the office day after day. We invited them to go through our files. We invited them to see the letters in and the letters out every day. We stated clearly that the one thing we aimed at was publicity, and that whatever we did, whether it was popular or unpopular, would be done in the light of God's sunshine, that whatever we did, whether legal or illegal, would be done openly and that the documents would be there to see what we were standing over. There was no necessity for raiding, either by day or by night. All the material that entered that office, or went out from that office, from the first day the organisation came into being, is in the custody of the Minister for Justice. What material did he get to justify the coup d'état talk of last September? What material did he get to justify the false statement that was hurled at us, that we were plotting an armed revolt in this country? The ammunition he got to justify that was exhibited in his few mumbling sentences to-day, when he had not a word to say in defence of this guillotined motion, when he had no material to produce, and not one scrap of evidence to justify all the slander that was hurled at us last September.

Does not every Deputy know, whether sitting on these benches or on the benches opposite, that if he had got one little scrap of justification for the slander hurled at us last September, no man in this House would be more pleased to get up and hurl it than the present Minister for Justice? We must take his failure to produce any tittle of evidence in support of these charges as an admission of the fact that there was no evidence; that what we said last September was correct, and that what he said was false. So we arrive at the point where, in addition to the Public Safety Act, we must have more legislation. Is it to make the country safe? More legislation to make the country more unsafe, more legislation calculated to succeed where bans failed, more legislation calculated to succeed in driving numbers of the Blue Shirt organisation into conflict with servants of the State. From the very first ban, from the calling off of the Cenotaph Parade, every evil attempt has been made to drive the Blue Shirts into conflict with the authorities, to try to provoke the Blue Shirt organisation into open defiance of the law, to force us to follow in their own footsteps.

Thank God, thanks to the courage of those in control, and thanks to the real spirit of democracy that flows in their veins, up to this you have failed, and failed dismally, and the failure to provoke the Blue Shirt organisation into revolt has brought tens of thousands flocking to our standard. Now, because of that success, because of rapidly increasing political strength, we are to have another Bill to make the shirts on our backs illegal. The Bill is introduced and is accompanied by the same old bogies, that it is a militaristic movement, that it is a movement along military lines, and that there is something dangerous, something anti-State about the whole thing. Alongside of that organisation we have another organisation that declares openly and, I must say, honestly and courageously, its intention to overthrow this State by force of arms. It declares in very clear and simple language in its publication, which can be bought for twopence, that the aims it intends to use are—

(1) force of arms, (2) to organise, train and equip the manhood of Ireland as an efficient military force, (3) to assist, as directed by the army authorities, all organisations working for the same object.

We have no legislation aimed at that organisation, and we have no bogey created with regard to State instability or the danger of the use of arms. But when we have an organisation to wean the people away from the other type of organisation, to show them that there is something grand and noble in standing for their own State, no matter who rules it, that, after all, it is the only country any of us have, that we may as well be proud of it as ashamed of it, that we may as well build it up as tear it down, when we have, for the first time, an organisation preaching service to the State, pride in our own State, and opposition to anything aimed as a menace to the State, we have all the bitterness, and all the penalties that should apply to a criminal organisation. We have all the ferocity of the Government machine levelled at us, to try to provoke us to take the path of crime, to take the path opposed to the State.

We have all that going on under the government of a man who invites us to put on the brown habit of St. Francis. I hate humbug at any time. I detest humbug when it is associated with the name of a saint. Instead of inviting us to put on the brown habit of St. Francis, it would be well if those on the benches opposite would cultivate the mentality of St. Francis, and have a little Christianity and a little charity, when dealing with those even politically opposed to them. We have all these utterances about the brown garb of St. Francis intermixed with a slander that was never uttered by any member of the Fine Gael organisation, and that I think none of us ever heard even whispered about the country. When we had that emotional opposition to slander, or whispered propaganda, in the same speech, we had levelled at the leader of the Fine Gael organisation, the old slander, the old lie, the old libel, that he stood for the establishment of a dictatorship in this country. If we are going to have no slander in public life, let us have that on all sides. Do not let one side claim the right of exemption from slander, and, in the same statement proceed to hurl a false slander at the leader of the political organisation opposed to them. Is it not about time that particular slander was worn out? Is it not about time to manufacture something else, or to think of some other slander? Wolf, wolf! That particular cock will not fight now. It served its purpose last September. It is worn out now, and the Minister has not much powers of mental manufacture if he cannot think of something more original than that played out old hare that was run across this Assembly last September.

We have all this talk of militarism in politics. We have talk about an attempt to establish a dictatorship and of an organisation aimed at the overthrow of this State. Might I ask what is the background of the organisation? What is its history? What are its offences since it came into being? What have you got? You have democracy expressed in every publication and in every utterance. You have democracy expressed in every action. You have support for the State, respect for and obedience to the law exhibited in every utterance and in every action, even though that respect for the State, and that obedience to the law, meant the most abject form of humiliation on the part of the members of that organisation. Not once, not twice, but three times in public and with every taunt thrown at them, the members of what is called the Blue Shirt organisation showed that they were not only democrats but that they were democrats of a particularly obedient and law-abiding type. One would think that with all that record, with that public demonstration of their pacific intentions, and repeated exhibitions of their desire, at all events, to live their life within the law, no matter who made that law, this political vindictiveness would cease and that they would be given a chance, as citizens, to live their life within the law. They lived their life within the law—the ordinary law and the extraordinary law, as expressed by the Public Safety Act. But even that will not do. There has to be more legislation. It has got to be made harder for them. They have to be further humiliated. The very shirts are to be torn off their backs, the very banners out of their hands, and the very badges off their coats. For what? Is it because those banners are menacing the State? Is it because those shirts are indicative of armed revolt? While that shirt is being pulled off their backs, while that banner is being taken out of their hands, others are free to march and to parade, to go the road with guns in their pockets. That is the act of an impartial Government! That is the act of a Government which is hypocritical enough to bleat about democracy and freedom while they are putting this type of legislation through the House. The only sign of shame about the whole legislation and its introduction was the silence of the Minister for Justice, his failure to make any attempt even to justify the measure and his anxiety to guillotine it through the House. It would have been decenter if the thing had been done by proclamation. It would have been decenter if it had been done by Order. It is only a humbug to claim a democratic mandate, or Parliamentary sanction for legislation of this kind, introduced into this House and put through by a guillotine motion.

This Bill, as I have said, is likely to have one or two results and it is better to face up to them before it becomes law. Many of you, or all of you, have, like myself, some knowledge of Irish history. Remember that the impulses of a person depend, to a very great extent, on his traditions. Our traditions are traditions of struggle against Government. All our traditions, all our history, are built up of unconstitutional opposition to Government, of armed opposition to Government, at times overboard, at times under the surface. That was necessary when an outsider was framing the laws of this country but that tradition remains and those impulses remain underneath the skin of every one of us. You are dealing with material that it is far easier to throw up into active revolt than it is to lead in a disciplined way behind Government. You should be very careful in a country of people with those traditions what type of legislation you enact. Yet we have this Bill interfering with the moral constitutional opposition. The only result of the Bill will be, or, at least, one of the big dangers of the Bill is, that you will drive a constitutional opposition into unconstitutional paths; not only that, but that you will drive an organisation whose desire and ambition it was to live above ground and to take what action they took in the broad light of day—that you will drive that organisation underground and that you will create, throughout the country, the most widely-flung secret organisation that ever existed here. I am one of those who hold that no matter what the object, no matter how clean and above board the aims that initiated a secret society, in the long run that society, that was driven underground, became a menace. I regard secret societies as a curse and a thing that should not be encouraged in this country of ours. One of the obvious results of this type of legislation is to drive a clean movement underground. Would the members of the Government not think of that as a reasonable and logical result of this kind of legislation? Would the members of the Government not reckon that, even though the Fianna Fáil Party gain momentarily by this type of legislation, the State loses in the long run and the nation loses and that what we have got to do is to wean our people, young and old, away from secret societies, away from working in the dark and so educate them that whatever they have got to do, they will say or do in the broad light of day.

I would feel happier if I were coming in here to stand for a Bill not making shirts or badges or emblems illegal—I should feel happier and feel that you were doing a better day's work if you introduced a Bill compelling all organisations to wear some shirt or some badge. This country would be healthier if every organisation came out in the open, wearing its membership badge—whether it be a Communist, an I.R.A., a Fianna Fáil or a Fine Gael organisation. We should all know where we stood then.

We do not want to establish secret societies.

I am dead against secret societies, and I think you are provoking the starting of a secret society if you bludgeon underground an organisation which, at the moment, is overground. The Deputy knows that as well as I do. That is one of the things that may happen. Not only that, but it is one of the things that are likely to happen if this legislation, or legislation of this type, be put through. We had some attempts made from the opposite benches to justify this Bill. Every second attempt to justify it could be read as a strong argument against the Bill. We had speeches from the opposite benches to the effect that the attacks on public meetings were due to the presence of Blue Shirts at those meetings. We had Deputy Dowdall getting up to remind us that long before Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil were heard of, and long before the first blue shirt was worn, there were interruptions and rioting, and rowdyism at public meetings. I make the Minister a present of the Deputy and the Deputy's statement. I agree with him absolutely. There was always in this country a certain amount of violence associated with public political meetings. That was the case long before blue shirts were worn. The Minister's whole defence of this Bill was to utilise rowdyism as an excuse for stripping the shirts off the backs of his political opponents. No attempt is made to deal with the rioters who come out and break up meetings. The whole attempt is to deal with the organisation which is got together to stop that kind of thing. Indeed, its one great crime is to have succeeded in stopping that kind of thing. Yet there are Deputies who defend that action—the victimisation of the victims—rather than dealing with the culprits. Supposing you applied that principle to any other class of crime. Supposing a man walked down O'Connell Street and was attacked because he wore a gold chain, and that the Minister for Justice introduced legislation to prevent people from wearing gold chains because, he might say, gold chains are an incitement to robbers to rob. What would be thought of him in the ranks such circumstances? I do not ask what would be thought of him in the ranks of Fianna Fáil. Probably they would say he was a great man. But what would be thought of him generally? Now that is the type of action which has been taken against us. I would suggest, even now at this stage, rather than passing a guillotine motion in favour of the passing of this Bill, that the Bill should be withdrawn and hung up for a month's consideration. I would suggest, in these circumstances, that special consideration should be given, number one, to every document and utterance, to every statement and speech, made by any member of the Blue shirt organisation. Secondly, that the fullest examination should be given to all the documents in the Minister's office, and, thirdly, that special steps should be taken, if necessary, to go out and examine the public utterances of everybody connected with the Blue Shirt organisation. Then the Minister could come back at the end of the month, either with the material to justify this type of hardship and this piece of vindictive legislation, or else in the absence of such material, to withdraw this legislation. If this legislation is passed it can only have the effect of making people, who have no desire to come into conflict with the law, come into such conflict, and provoke them to such a state. There are people who want to lead their own lives in the open light of day and give service to this country. If this Bill were withdrawn for a month, and if all the evidence available to the Minister were sifted, and if the Minister can bring no more evidence than he has produced so far when he introduced this Bill, then he should make the first big gesture of impartiality, placing the State above all political parties, and say: "The evidence is insufficient to support this measure and I will withdraw the Bill."

I wonder who were the political advisers from the country who advised President de Valera to sanction the introduction of what is known as the Uniforms Bill. It is quite obvious, viewing it purely from the Fianna Fáil point or from the Government point of view, the introduction of this Bill will amount to nothing more or less than ultimate political suicide. All history, and God knows there is enough of it, whether right or wrong, that has been printed and issued in this country has shown, that once coercion is introduced it has in the most definite and final manner always failed. This Dáil has a legal right to introduce any legal measure it likes. It can take one of the Commandments out of the Decalogue or it can add another but such law would be an immoral law. The legislation that seeks to stultify and bludgeon nationalism in this country at any cost is throwing aside all regard for democracy, and as Deputy O'Higgins has said the ultimate result will be an effort to drive honest nationalism underground. It is an effort to drive honest open nationalism into secret societies and impassioned elements into ultimate civil war. Then, eventually leaders will be asked by influential people to bring about a settlement and a compromise when it will be too late. The danger that the Government pretend they feel of a civil war arising will never arise if they withdraw this Bill, but if they pass this Bill and they send it down the country to be implemented by the police authorities and by agents provocateurs it will bring about civil war and those who love their country and are anxious to stand by her will be ultimately cast aside. That may be all very well for the Government game but it is a serious matter for those in this country who understand the feelings of the people. Those of us who want to reason on these matters and who are endeavouring to make an appeal to reason will talk in vain because of the machinery that is set up. We are never listened to. The division bells are rung, and Deputies troop in to the right and to the left and vote us down. It is, therefore, futile and a waste of time, to ask the Government to accept the amendment standing in the names of Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Mulcahy. This Bill is intended as nothing more than a measure to enable the Fianna Fáil Party to hack and hew a political position for themselves in this country and to cause disturbance in the country and to drive us back perhaps to the periods of 1921 and 1922 that we are all so anxious to forget. Every patriotic Irishman that I have ever met was anxious to forget that terrible unhappy history and to look to the future as one that we might be all proud of. How are we to face the young people— young men and young women of the country—and ask them to stand down and to obey every kind of political legislation that the Government wishes to pass? It would be asking too much of these young people with Irish blood and Irish tradition in their veins. Anyone either inside or outside this House who failed to fight against this legislation would be false to the country and its traditions.

The last outburst is not typical of Deputy Minch. He talks of the blood flowing in the veins of the Irish people and the traditions they inherit. To my mind, his blood has never flowed in his veins in the old Irish traditional way, and I do not think it ever will. If he is anxious to excite the young people of this country whose blood does flow in the old Irish traditional way, then I suggest to him that he is not doing the decent thing because he himself never gave support to any movement engaged in the national struggle in this country. Rather it went in the opposite direction. A man like him, coming here to excite young people in any organisation, should be ashamed of his own voice.

I did not intend to intervene in this debate at all, but it is hard to hold oneself back when you hear a man of the type of Deputy Minch talking about the Irish people's blood flowing in the old traditional way. I think that on the last occasion the Deputy spoke in this House he told us of some of his experiences in Flanders: of the one blue-funk night he spent in the trenches. He told us of his presiding at the courtmartial of Australian soldiers because, according to him, they showed blue funk. If there is one thing that stood out prominently in the Great War it was that, of all those taking part in it, the Australians did not suffer from blue funk, and the reason was that in the veins of many of them good Irish blood flowed. Deputy Minch's experiences of his one blue-funk night in the trenches and of his presiding over a courtmartial are typical of a lot of the stuff that one has to listen to here. Almost every time Deputy O'Higgins speaks here he makes threats as to what is going to happen to the Government if they proceed in a particular way and as to what is going to happen certain organisations. Since the present Government came into power Deputy O'Higgins has shown nothing but the most absolute contempt for every single Act they have passed into law, and for everything that they have done. He has done his utmost to create in the minds of people contempt for the Government. We do not expect that he, any more than Deputy Minch, is ever going to do the decent thing so far as the Government is concerned. But when they talk about forcing people into secret societies I would like them to face up to the facts. Will they answer the question that was put to them several times during the Second Reading debate on the Bill: what would they have done if, at any time since 1922, the people in opposition to them politically in the Republican ranks had militarised their political organisations; had marched out into the open with a certain part of their programme hidden behind in secret, had dressed themselves in uniform, and had put lethal weapons into the hands of their followers? What would these two Deputies have done? Would they allow the political organisations of the Republican movement to be militarised? Would they allow on almost every Sunday two or three lorry loads of those people, dressed in uniform, to drive through any town, say, in the west of Ireland and have them jumping off their lorries and smashing the heads of people who shouted political catch-cries at them—smashing their windows, breaking in their doors and pulling out guns in people's houses? Would the Deputies opposite allow that to contine?

Is the Deputy now talking of something that happened in Balla, or will he tell us where it happened?

The Deputy should not get excited. He should control himself. We have been told what a wonderful effect as regards self-control the blue shirt produces. I would advise Deputy Davis to wear one.

Mr. Brodrick

And I would advise the Deputy to tell the truth.

I ask Deputies opposite what they would do if they were the Government and if we put 100,000 young people, boys and girls who supported Fianna Fáil, into uniform? Would they allow us to do so? They have told us what a fine manly thing it is to have young people in uniform. I know very well they would not allow us to do that. Even if they had to bring out machine guns, and put them into the hands of the Army to mow us down, they would not allow it. I think they should realise that any Government wanting to rule the country and to put its programme into operation could not allow what they are attempting to do, and that the Government was bound to bring in this measure.

Deputy O'Higgins, of course, thinks that every political party should put their young men into uniform. I think it should not. One reason why I am of that opinion is this: that we are not far enough removed yet from the very ugly bitter feelings created during the civil war to have political organisations militarised in the fashion that Deputy O'Higgins spoke of. I think it would be a very dangerous thing to do. I think that any Government would be very foolish to sponsor anything of the kind. I think it is a very foolish thing, too, for an Opposition, claiming to have a certain amount of political prestige, to give its support to any such proposal. In the long run, its support of any such proposal is bound to militate against it. The Opposition have seen the evil results that follow from getting school children to wear uniforms. They have had to go back on that part of their programme. As I have said, we are not yet far enough removed from the bitter feelings created by the civil war to allow of the militarisation of young people claiming to belong to political parties. Such a thing would, in the long run, lead to very serious local disturbances, and I am convinced would inevitably lead to civil war.

Some of the people opposite who are now loudest in their condemnation of the Government action are the people who would suffer, because they know the feelings that remained after the last civil war. I have met and talked to men who fought against us in the last civil war. I have talked to many of them, as well as to many who were on our side. These men made the statement to me—they made it in full sincerity—that the wrong men were shot in the last civil war. If you have that sort of atmosphere created in the minds of the young, then undoubtedly men would suffer on both sides. Let those who are now trying to hamper the passage of this Bill remember that if squalls and brawls take place, if you have a civil war atmosphere created, that perhaps the wrong men may not be shot in the next civil war. I make a present of that to the Opposition, just as Deputy O'Higgins has made a present of the statement to us that we are going to drive underground an organisation which may become a menace to the State. I am just as sincere in my statement as he was in his, and I take him as being absolutely sincere in his. I would ask the Deputies opposite to consider that point of view.

The Opposition say they are opposed to the Bill because it is going to injure them politically. There are two Mayo Deputies sitting on the benches opposite. I make them a present of every single man who is in the Blue Shirt organisation in Mayo. They have never been anything but opponents of ours. I put it to the two Mayo Deputies opposite that it would be very much better for these people to organise themselves on political lines and not to mind about such titles as "generals,""commandants,""adjutants,""quartermasters," and so on. They will not cause us the slightest trouble in the County Mayo, and will not advance the cause of the Opposition one step more by being in the Blue Shirts than they would by being in the United Ireland Party. Let them belong to the United Ireland Party. This Bill is not directed against it. It is directed against the military wing of that organisation, and every member in the military wing of the organisation is already a supporter of the political wing. Let them remain in the political part of the organisation. They will not do us one bit more harm now than they did in the past. The only difference, as we gather from the statements that have been made is that it is more spectacular to have them in uniform; that the uniform attracts youth; but cannot the same be said of the Black Shirts and the Brown Shirts as well as of the Blue Shirts? But, surely, with the tradition that Deputy Minch talks of, the same could be said of the Green Shirts. If the members of our clubs or of any other organisation were to put their youthful followers into a uniform of any colour, it would be, at least, as attractive as the Blue Shirts. I submit that if we were to do that, we would sooner or later have a very nasty atmosphere in this country, because we cannot all be as deadly deliberate and as coldly calculating as Deputy O'Higgins.

I do feel, knowing the country as I do, that it would be a bad thing to have these organisations coming out into the open wearing uniforms. I think if Deputies opposite could only take that point of view they would withdraw their opposition to this measure, and it should not take them a week or a month to do so. We are asked in a sort of final appeal to withdraw this Bill for a month. If in the meantime, some organisation comes out to put the members of their Party into another uniform, will the Minister not have a bigger task in a month's time than he has now? All this talk about partial administration of the law, and about its being worked against the Party opposite is absolute nonsense, and they know it. They can have their meetings; they can bring people in their lorries to meetings, but surely they ought not be allowed to bring them round in uniform encouraging other parties also to go into uniform? Any Government that would permit that would not be doing its duty. This is a measure to stem the tide, and the Government is very wise in stemming the tide now. Let Deputies opposite remember the heated scenes that we have sometimes in this House. Unfortunately I must plead guilty to the charge that I do not give the best example myself. Very often we have scenes of which we may be afterwards ashamed. Then how can you expect peace out through the country where you have big meetings, where you have one of the parties trying to enthuse the crowd, and several other parties trying to irritate them? I think the thing that has irritated and aggravated the minds of the people most, and that has driven them into losing their self-control, has been the putting of certain elements into uniform.

Deputy Dr. O'Higgins congratulated the Blue Shirts on being self-controlled under very difficult circumstances in the past. I can absolutely congratulate the people of this country on being wonderfully self-controlled when they got every provocation to break the law, when they were faced with everything that could irritate the public mind by members of the Blue Shirt organisation. We had members of this organisation marching through towns, breaking in doors, breaking in windows, and hitting with iron bars those who shouted a particular catch-cry against theirs, and that in certain towns where the vast majority of the people were politically opposed to them. Yet our people were self-controlled. They merely went to the barracks and lodged a complaint. I absolutely congratulate the people on their self-control in these circumstances, but you cannot always hope that they will hold out in face of irritation of that kind. I think it is time for the Government to have this measure passed and to prevent, not the wearing of blue shirts exactly, not the carrying of weapons by members of the Blue Shirt organisation, but to prevent any party in this country from organising in a military fashion, dressing in a uniform, and going about in public in uniform. By doing that we will ensure a peaceful means of working out to its fulfilment the programme of any political party that gets into power here.

I rise to support the amendment moved by Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Mulcahy. I hope that Deputy Cleary will not leave the House until I read for him something that might leave a more lasting impression on his mind than the words used by Deputy Dr. O'Higgins. Deputy O'Higgins, in urging the acceptance of this amendment, said that there was a grave danger that if an organisation like this were not allowed to proceed in the ordinary open fashion they would be driven underground, and he quoted several instances in which such things happened. In 1931, when certain people were shot in Tipperary, and when certain jurors were shot in Dublin, the Government of the day felt it obligatory on them, in the interests of the preservation of human life, to bring in a certain Act, the Constitution (Amendment No. 17) Act, which the present Government bitterly opposed then, but which they have now in operation. I should like to quote for Deputy Cleary's benefit what the present President of the Executive Council thought about that Act. At that time the Government of the day were dealing with armed associations, not with people who were armed with nothing but blue shirts. What did President de Valera say on that occasion? According to column 56, volume 40 of the Official Debates, in opposing that Constitution Amendment Bill, he said:—

"If you deny people, who are animated with honest motives, peaceful ways of doing it, you are throwing them back on violent ways of doing it. Once they are denied the peaceful way they will get support for the violent way that they would never otherwise get."

Perhaps that might make some impression on Deputy Cleary's mind. That is from the present President of the Executive Council in dealing with the Bill then before the House.

On the same occasion, the present Minister for Justice, who introduced this Bill, spoke against that Act. He will be probably surprised to hear now what he had to say about that particular Act, the Act which is now in operation and which he has defended, and which he apparently now believes is not harsh enough to deal with the Blue Shirts. He has got to bring in a further Bill to supplement this Act, which he so vigorously opposed then. What was the Minister's opinion of those who brought in the Act at that time? He said:—

"I would be surprised if they could now get away from these dirty underhand tactics by which they have been always trying to trick and fool the people."

Could not we say the same thing of the Minister now? What have we but dirty, underhand tactics now? What are there but dirty underhand tactics in this Bill? Nothing, in my opinion, has been produced to justify the particular section upon which this Bill stands.

They do not carry guns.

Deputy Donnelly knows they do not carry guns. The most terrifying thing they can possibly carry is a blue shirt.

And a gun.

That is the one thing that terrifies them. The other thing they are terrified about is that they do not know who is paying for them. They are afraid that it is the enemies of the country who are paying for them. Is not all the talk about the threat of civil war camouflage? Is it not a smoke screen to hide the economic degradation to which this country has been brought? Civil war! The President spoke for three hours on this Bill. He told us, among other things, that he had the loyalty of the Army and, as a matter of fact, he told us that he had to pay a tribute to his predecessors for the loyalty with which the Army had served. He told us he had the loyalty also of the Civic Guards, and for that again he paid a tribute to his predecessors. He said he had also with him the majority of the decent people in this country. Now, if he has on his side the Army, the new Army, the Civic Guards, that section of the Guards misnamed the Broy Harriers, the I.R.A., and the majority of the decent people of the country, who is going to fight against him? The Blue Shirts must be hardy fellows if, armed only with blue shirts or even with bludgeons, they are going to fight the Army, the new Army, the Civic Guards, the I.R.A., and the majority of the decent people of the country. Is not the whole thing a humbug so far as civil war is concerned? Is it not all camouflage? The President, the Minister for Justice, and the members of the Fianna Fáil Party know very well that so far as the Blue Shirts are concerned there is no fear of civil war, absolutely none. Deputy Cleary talked about people going about in uniforms. There is nothing at all about the people who go around with arms. Apparently that is quite within the law; but if you go around with a baton or a blue shirt, it is God help you. And this is a democratic Government! This is the poor man's Government! That is what they call themselves.

Of course, Fianna Fáil had to do something. The economic situation had developed to such an extent that it had to be hidden by something of this sort. Another important matter is that the bill of costs which the Minister for Finance is going to bring in—the sum of £35,000,000—has to be covered in some way. When Fianna Fáil were here in opposition they made great speeches against Budgets of £21,000,000 or £25,000,000. Now, when expenditure has increased to such an alarming degree, they have to get something to hide that, and they bring in this Bill. They are merely following the example of Eastern peoples who beat the tom-toms in order to create a war frenzy. They know well, and the Attorney-General knows, that there is no fear of a civil war.

They tell us that there are the ordinary means of preserving order at public meetings, but they know perfectly well of the hearing we do not get at public meetings. I remember in 1931, before this Government got into power, I was endeavouring to speak in my native town of Roscommon against organised opposition and the then forces of the law were not able to allow any of us an opportunity of being heard because of the Fianna Fáil opposition. On Thursday and Friday of the week before last we had a speech lasting over three hours from the President. It was the President's pacifist speech and it was published in all the papers. I am sure it was very zealously read by Fianna Fáil supporters in the country. Here is my experience. On the following Sunday I was at a public meeting in a place called Clooneycolgan and the chairman who introduced me said I came there to address the people on political matters. He said that if any member of the audience wanted to ask questions he was sure Mr. Brennan would endeavour to answer them. Further, he said that if any member of the crowd wanted to address the meeting he was quite welcome to address it. President de Valera, when he was speaking here, said it was quite possible some of the things we mentioned off platforms riled his supporters to such an extent that they were bound to interrupt. On this occasion I had simply said three words—"Ladies and Gentlemen"—when the local president of the Fianna Fáil club, not any of the ordinary I.R.A. scallywags, none of that crowd, but the local president said "Come down, you traitor", "Up de Valera." That was after the President's pacifist speech. The local president of the Fianna Fáil was a gentleman named Mr. White.

We cannot help that.

Of course, you could not. Why should not that gentleman do it? Did not President de Valera say here and all over the country "We are offering you all the protection we can, but we cannot make you popular."

Hear, hear!

Exactly. What is the meaning of it? Can Deputy Donnelly translate it?

Absolutely.

Now, when President de Valera, who occupies the position which he now occupies, unfortunately for this country, makes a statement like that, it is tantamount to saying: "You are unpopular; you deserve to be unpopular; you deserve what you are getting." I would recommend Deputy Donnelly and President de Valera to remember that the popular cry of the mob was not always right, was not ever right, not since the crowd chose Barabbas was it right down to the present day. This Bill seeks the creation of a new crime. The Attorney-General was very wroth when Deputy O'Higgins or Deputy Mulcahy spoke about manufacturing crime. What is this Bill aiming at but the manufacture of a new crime? Was not every effort made by the Government to drag the Blue Shirts beyond the path of the law and they could not do it? Did not the Government violate the law both by arrest and otherwise to try to drag the Blue Shirts beyond the path of the law and they could not do it? Now they have to create a new crime and that is what they are endeavouring to do to-night. They are creating a new crime so that they will be able to bring the Blue Shirts outside the law in some shape or form.

There is an old saying that those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first set mad. I think that if ever there was a decent opportunity to use that saying it is the present opportunity and in regard to the present Government. I do not think there ever was such a mad proposal brought before any House. There is no use in Fianna Fáil trying to camouflage the issue. There is no use in pretending that there is evidence of a civil war breaking out. The one redeeming feature of the Bill is that it is directed plainly and unadulteratedly at their political opponents. They are out to try to put down their political opponents. That, and nothing else, is the object of the Bill. They could not attain that object in any other way and they must now create a crime so as to involve their political opponents and put them outside the law.

If Fianna Fáil were a non-militarist party it would be a different thing, but the fact is, as was said here recently, they have been bred on it. We refuse to accept the statement that the Blue Shirts are a military or even a semi-military organisation. The one thing that they have to be put down for is not because they are a military organisation, because they are not, not because they have the uniform, not because they have arms, because they have not got them, and not because they are a danger to the State, but because they are a direct danger to the political life of the present Government. For that reason alone the Government is endeavouring to try every act of aggression and even brute force to put them down, instead of decently accepting their defeat.

Deputy Dowdall told us that if the Blue Shirts were allowed to develop they could not be controlled. If the Blue Shirts are allowed to develop on the lines upon which they have been founded and upon which they now exist, is there any reason to control them? If they are constitutionally within the law, have they not the right to alter the Government of this country? Is that not their right? Is that not the liberty for which we fought and which this country thought it had won? Apparently, the Government want to carry out a sheer act of aggression. Coercion seems to be their policy. When an Act which is now in operation was being discussed here, President de Valera declared that it was the worst coercion Bill since the time of Hamar Greenwood. Speaking of the Government then in power, he said: "As Carlyle said, squelch them, by God, squelch them." That is the policy of the Government, but the Government will wake up to find that they are a bit late in their policy. No steps that the Government can take with regard to this Uniform Bill or any other Bill are going to stem the tide of the League of Youth. They will not do it. I certainly would not like to prophesy that the Blue Shirts are going to be driven underground into a secret society. I do not want to say any such thing is possible, but there is a real danger there, and I think——

If there is a danger it must be possible.

——we ought to be afraid of it.

Not necessarily.

If it is ever to become a secret society it is this policy, or something like it, that will drive it to do so. The League of Youth has been above board. All its acts have been open, and even the most terrifying picture that Deputy Cleary can paint, with regard to lorries going through the country, men jumping off them and beating up people as they meet them on the streets, will not have any weight with the people of this country. Everybody knows they are unreal. I suppose it would be too much indeed to expect that the Minister is going to accept this amendment, but I certainly would say that the Minister is, in my opinion, doing a very bad day's work for the State when he is allowing that section to go in in that particular way. The decent thing for the Government to do is to ensure equality of law. Let every person who is within the law have equal service in this State. There is no use in trying to bring in a Bill like this. It is not going to get you anywhere. It is possibly going to make a lot of trouble in this country, and, of course, if the trouble comes the Government will have to put up with the responsibility for it. I do not want to delay the House any further, but I do think that that amendment moved by Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Mulcahy ought, in the interests of the country—certainly not in the interests of Fianna Fáil but in the interests of the country—be accepted and inserted in the Bill.

With regard to the last few remarks made by Deputy Brennan as to whether there was any possibility of a change of mind on this Bill on the part of the Government, I am quite satisfied to have this whole matter reconsidered if the Deputy and the people on his side of the House are prepared to give up wearing uniform. That is all we ask for. We ask for nothing more. I have been listening here during all these debates to attacks concentrated on the Government that all they are doing and everything that they aim at under this Bill is purely and simply to injure an opposing political party.

I have asked on a number of occasions during the debate what is the great secret in the wearing of a blue shirt that you have to stick to it? What is the secret of this uniform? You carried on here for ten years as the Government of this country. You said that the people loyally backed you. Did you secure the backing of the people at that time by going round in peculiar uniforms? You did not think of any such assistance then. We were in opposition in this country during those ten years, or the most of it. As the strongest opposing Party during all that time it never struck us to try to get some continental dodge to try to help along our policy.

You do not blame us for that?

Nobody has made any attempt to answer. Why is the uniform essential?

Were we not within the law?

I am asking what is this awful thing you have to give up— the wearing of a blue uniform?

Is it not lawful to wear it?

It was lawful in other countries up to a point. We are supposed to be acting here all through as if we were the most tyrannical people in the world. I have pointed out, and the Attorney-General has pointed out, on the Second Reading debate that other countries have adopted similar uniforms to the uniform adopted here. We did not hear anybody protest against the Bills that were brought in in those countries.

That is not our business.

We are not without precedent. We did not hear anything about manufacturing crime in those particular instances. In connection with this Bill we have brought in here, do not try to assess blame on this side of the House. Other countries have made moves to deal in the same way with the brown shirts, the green shirts, and so on. The Governments in those countries have had to deal with them in the same way as we are dealing with them here. If you send people away on cruises or something like that, and they get ideas abroad, when they are bringing back to you that stock-in-trade to have it adopted in this country they must also be prepared to take the risk that the Government in this country will have to deal with it in the same way as the Governments in the countries they are getting it from.

It is not we sent representatives over at all.

You must be prepared for that. There is no use in complaining about it. When you were moving along in this Blue Shirt idea you knew the way other countries had regarded those movements, and how they had dealt with them. It was stated by the ex-Attorney-General that the word "political" was not mentioned in those Bills. It is the very thing which is emphasised in every one of those Bills. It is emphasised in Belgium, in the Netherlands, in Switzerland, and all the rest of them. Everyone of those Bills was brought in to deal with opposing political parties who try to get along in this way by donning a uniform. The main point is this: does Deputy Brennan or any other Deputy on that side of the House think for a moment that any Opposition, when Cumann na nGaedheal were the Government in this country, would be permitted to assign to themselves duties which were the duties of the State's servants? If you were to again become Government in the morning, do you think you would allow us to go out in green shirts, or some other form of uniform, and to excuse ourselves by saying: "There is a lot of trouble at political meetings. We are not as popular as we were. Your police force are not able to deal with it, and we want to build up a police force of our own?" Would you stand for it? I put it honestly to any Deputy on the other side of the House, if he wants to give me a straight answer. There is not one of you who would now commit himself to giving such an answer as that.

It is not a straight question, even if the Minister is raising his voice.

I do not know what way the Deputy wants the question to be put. I made it as clear as I could. We are not going to permit in this country—and I say that no responsible Government could permit it—people to dress in uniform and assign to themselves police duties. It could not be done. Somebody said that this Bill was directed against the Blue Shirts. I admitted that candidly when introducing the Bill, but I did state also that this Bill, while it had to deal with this particular problem of the Blue Shirts at the moment—it is the only problem it has to deal with at the moment—was designed to meet and deal with any other people who tried to go out in uniform in this country. I have seen, and everybody else has seen, reports in the papers that a number of other people were thinking of going out in some other sort of garb. This Bill, as drafted, covers, and is designed to deal with, any body which tries to assign to themselves uniforms and the duties that should be performed by the servants of the State. If you were as successful for ten years as you claim you were, and if you carried on so well without uniforms, is it any hardship on you now to get back to where you were? There is no question of interference——

There is a very considerable question of interference at public meetings.

Consider the question of interference at public meetings. Consider also what is the position if you are going to have two or three rival factions in this country, with faction fights developing, where people will go out in different coloured uniforms and settle matters between themselves. Where is that going to lead to? It is all right to say: "We only carry batons——"

You sowed the wind.

What is going to be the logical outcome of that? Batons, in certain circumstances, might not be sufficient. If you claim the right to use lethal weapons, are you going to define to what extent that use is going to be brought? Against certain force that might be used and in certain circumstances, you would take machine-guns to keep order? Is that not so? Are you going to stop at that? You claim that these people of yours who are not under the control of the State must be allowed to carry lethal weapons. Let us be logical about it, and let us see where that is going to get us to.

We made no claim for weapons.

Deputy Doctor O'Higgins here, on the Second Reading, talked about the wearing of uniforms being the greatest card ever thrown on the political table. I suggest to Deputy Doctor O'Higgins that he took that card, not from the ordinary political pack, but from his waistcoat pocket and that he has put it in, more or less, as a forged joker and that he is playing it away from the recognised political pack. If he wants to play what he calls a political card game, he must use the cards that are authorised according to political tenets and political understanding about these matters. There is no difficulty in the way of his falling back on the regular stock-in-trade that his Party has and carrying on its political propaganda. Nobody is interfering with that and the Government is doing everything it can to protect them. I know that interference has occurred at political meetings. Nobody has ever attempted to deny that.

It is being connived at.

I would ask the Deputy if it is not a fact—and I think he admitted it himself in his speech— that long before we became the Government, there was interference at meetings. I remember, even in 1923, when we were very much hunted about the country, our people were interfered with at meetings——

Are any of your meetings interfered with now?

We are charged here every other day with not providing protection for meetings. Let us take the case of the President of the Executive Council on the first occasion on which he tried to appear in public, in Ennis. Shots were fired at him and nobody was brought to justice for it. We are charged with winking at various things done in the country and with not having people brought to justice for them. There were shots fired at the President of the Executive Council when he was addressing a meeting from a platform and when he was going out to assert the right of liberty of speech in this country. There was no question raised in this House as to why somebody was not brought to justice for it. There were other incidents later on. You had the incidents that happened in Ballinamore when the President was attacked. All those things were happening during those years and you are trying to fool the people that you had order at meetings during all that time. The building up of forces is not the way to get order at meetings. The State must do its best to preserve the right of holding meetings but if it is going to assign that function to other people, it must, inevitably, lead to civil war, because it will mean that two or three people will be playing the same game.

There is no hardship in this Bill and no necessity for all this talk about driving people underground. There is no use in people talking that way. I think it was Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney who, on the Second Reading last week, tried to picture for us the terrible position that would arise if some lady were attacked in the streets and an effort made to take a garment off her. That was based on the assumption by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney that that particular person would not obey the law. This suggestion of driving people underground comes very badly from people who have talked so much about constitutionalism in this country and obedience to law.

I have quoted your President.

We were supposed to get no respect for our views at that time.

And at a time when guns were being used.

In any case, we were not driven underground in spite of all that.

A Deputy

Slippery Mick.

The last man who said that paid very heavily for it.

I do not think it necessary to say any more, except that I think it is a very bad indication to the country to suggest that because this Bill is being passed by this House people will be entitled to resort to other methods, and I suggest that that is something which people who have set themselves up as lecturers to us in constitutionalism should not do.

Agreed. But your President has suggested otherwise.

Deputies should not indulge in a running commentary on the speech of a Minister or Deputy.

If we see the Deputy here unable to control himself, when somebody else is speaking in this House, what complaint can he have if people who have, perhaps, not his experience in debate are asked a few extra questions down the country?

He would be better in a blue shirt. That is one of the advantages of the shirt.

People would not ask him so many questions?

He would not ask so many.

What would happen if he came in here in a blue shirt?

Or a blouse?

This Bill is a perfectly reasonable measure to people who want to act in the ordinary constitutional way and to avail themselves of the ordinary political machinery in the country. Let somebody tell us what is the peculiar advantage of this thing you have copied from abroad— this blue shirt. What is the secret of it? Finally, I ask that when you are considering that question, do not complain because we are doing, in Ireland, what the Governments in those countries from which you have copied had to do.

Mr. Brodrick

I am not in the least surprised at the introduction of this Bill by the present Government, because they have seen, for some time, that their day as the governors of this country is finished. That is one reason, and the blue is getting on them. We have been told by the Attorney-General that there has been no crime in this country since the last election— that there were no outrages during the last election, or after it. I would bring his mind back to Galway. Right through the campaign there, there was nothing but attempts on every one of our supporters, day after day, and in the different courts in County Galway supporters of Fianna Fáil were brought up after the last election, for beating up supporters of ours. He cannot deny that.

The Attorney-General

I do not know what statement of mine the Deputy is quoting.

Mr. Brodrick

Headford.

The Attorney-General

The Deputy is quoting me. What statement of mine is he quoting?

Mr. Brodrick

You said that during the last election campaign there was no intimidation whatsoever.

The Attorney-General

I never said any such thing. If I did, I withdraw it.

Mr. Brodrick

Since the last election we have had plenty of crime in Galway. We have had from ten to 12 outrages in Galway for the last 12 months and in at least six of them guns have been used. The Guards, I know, are in a position to give information as to the people using the guns. In cases in which guns were not used, our people were beaten up. In two cases out of these ten or 12, within the last 12 months, people have been brought to court. In one instance, the people who committed the outrage of beating up an old man of 73 years of age, were put under arrest. They were later released and it was not until after a question in the Dáil by Deputy Hogan that they were re-arrested, tried before the Tribunal and sentenced. The same evidence was there beforehand. It was admitted by officers of the present Government, in a case recently in the northern end of County Galway, in which an old man was beaten up, that there was a factory for the manufacture of batons and knuckle-dusters by local Fianna Fáil and I.R.A. supporters. It is well known to the authorities that there are drilled Republicans in that area under arms. Is it not known that two Deputies in the town of Loughrea six months ago headed a parade of I.R.A. men in the case where a doctor was being appointed to a position in that town? Is it not known that two Deputies of this House headed that crowd? Is it not known also that after the parade, quite recently, ordinary law abiding people, for just shouting "Up" the name of one particular person, have got nine months in jail and that people who had revolvers and who beat up a man in that locality were not arrested?

All we want is that the law should be administered as it should be. That is all we want, and that is why the Blue Shirt organisation is there. The Minister for Justice tells us that we are taking the powers of the police. We never attempted to take the powers of the police. We attended our own meetings and all we did was just to attend our own meetings. The Minister for Justice was prepared to send sufficient Guards to protect the gentlemen who were out to cause trouble in the country. At every meeting in the last six months, if the Attorney-General reads the reports, he will find that, whether the Civic Guards are ordered for that duty or not, their real duty is to protect the gentlemen who are interrupting the meetings and who are out to cause trouble. Those are the conditions that we have down the country and no matter what Bill you introduce, the colour of blue is going to last in this country, and the colour of blue is going to win out. Mind you, the Minister for Finance has done more than anyone in the Front Bench to ensure that the blue colour will win out. He has done more for us than anybody else. As Dr. O'Higgins stated, we went into the Blue Shirt organisation. Our people went into it. There is no secret about it. What is this secret about the guns? We are going to meetings every other day and it is well known that we are not armed. If you take County Galway you will find that no later than last November up to 20 houses of supporters of the Blue Shirt organisation have been raided upside down for arms, ammunition or documents. What has been seized in these raids? Everybody knows that no arms or ammunition have been found.

You are in the know.

Mr. Brodrick

It is a long time since the Deputy was in the know. That is the position and, on every occasion on which the Blue Shirt organisation went out, they kept the law. Deputy Cleary stated, and it is typical of the statements that come from him, that men of the Blue Shirt organisation jumped off their lorries to beat up people with iron bars and broke into their houses when going to public meetings. At the same time, he is not prepared to give the name of one single case. We have not seen it happen, but we have seen our own supporters being badly beaten up. They were beaten up a fortnight ago in Galway. We have seen where an ordinary political meeting was held in Galway and where you had to have forces of Civic Guards protecting the railway line to see that people would not be injured or lives lost through people taking up the railway tracks. That is the position down through the country, whether the Government knows it or not. All we ask is that the law should be administered fairly to every one, and if the Government of the country does that they need not worry about what colour of shirt is in it.

I listened to the Minister for Justice when he was introducing this motion and he said he was introducing it because he considered it was urgent. I must confess, to his credit, that that is in accordance with statements made by him in the recent past at a street corner in the town of Ballina, when he said: "Clear this accursed crowd out of the way, so that we may get on with the work." That is a statement made by the Minister for Justice in the town of Ballina. It was published in the local Press and therefore I can challenge contradiction. As far as matters of that kind go, I will say also, to the Minister's credit, that he is a very able lieutenant in leading a mob in that town, and no man, or very few men, as far as I know, were more capable of acquitting themselves in that way than the Minister for Justice.

We heard Deputy Dowdall here to-day, and he made statements which, I think, were well worthy of him. He considered that this measure was needed, but in another breath he said that it was not unusual and that we should not be surprised if we had disturbances in this country as we have been accustomed to faction fights in this country in the past. I do not know whether it is Deputy Dowdall's idea that such a state of affairs should continue. Notwithstanding that he said we were accustomed to faction fights in the past and to disturbances of the peace and disturbances of public meetings in the past, still Deputy Dowdall considers that it is consistent and honest on his part to support this tyrannical Bill that is now before this House. Deputy Dowdall goes further and says that it is of very little consequence what would happen in a matter of that kind. If we only reflect on the position and on the statements made here in the past when the Minister for Justice was in opposition, we will see a great difference between his statements then and now. What was his statement then in regard to the Constitution Bill? According to him then, it was provocative; it was intolerable; it was a tyranny that should not be entertained by any people and that should not be obeyed by any people. Let anybody look over the Official Reports and read the Minister's words and he will see there, almost word for word, that that is what the Minister said. I do not say that I am actually giving his very words, but that, in substance, was the meaning of what he said. To-day he says that this Bill is urgent and very necessary and that it should be pushed through in a great hurry.

We have heard something from a Deputy whose name, owing to the respect I have for him, I very seldom mention. That is Deputy Cleary. He stated here this evening that certain things occurred in the County Mayo. Certain things did occur in the County Mayo, I admit. The Attorney-General knows what was proved and has full cognisance of what happened in Mayo, and he knows pretty well what occurred there. I do not know, and I am not going to criticise, what was the result of the investigation into crimes committed in the County Mayo. I will not dwell on the fact that the people over whom the Attorney-General and the Government stand were the perpetrators of those crimes. One of those crimes was an attack on the house of a man named Pat Gavin, in Belcarra, County Mayo. He happened to be a man who was able to defend his house on that occasion, as he was capable of defending himself at all times. I will come now to something that happened more convenient to the Attorney-General's own home.

What occurred in the vicinity of the Attorney-General's home? When the Blue Shirts were trying to establish a branch of their organisation in a town only six miles away, or within gunshot, I might say, of where the Attorney-General was born and reared, an attack was made on the house and it took the Guards all their time to defend it. That was in the town of Balla. I think the Attorney-General knows all about that. That was investigated. I am not going to criticise or to say anything with regard to the merits or demerits of the decision given on that occasion. The outcome of it is still pending. Whatever criticism that deserves, I do not desire to go into it. I prefer to pass that by. At all events the fact remains that people were wounded on that occasion. The Guards were barely able to defend people who had assembled to carry out their lawful business in a lawful manner. That matter came up in court, but we know what the result was.

These are the people who support the Fianna Fáil Government. These are the people who are out for law and order. These are the people whom this Bill is supposed to defend. I wonder was there any necessity for the creation of some organisation that would combat the onslaught of people with that disposition? They were not willing to let any man express his views. I think every man in the country should be entitled to express his views. As far as I am concerned, I challenge anyone to say that I have ever interrupted a public meeting. I have never advised anyone to interrupt a public meeting. I do not know what the Attorney-General did in his day, but if we are to take what we have seen I am afraid that the Attorney-General has sometimes not altogether lived up to the position that would lead any impartial-minded man to believe that he has discharged his duties in an efficient and impartial manner. In saying that I do not desire to cast any reflection on the Attorney-General.

What else is it?

We cannot look on silently when we note the things that are happening. Taking note of those things, it is our bounden duty as public representatives to remind the Attorney-General from time to time that there are certain things happening—certain things that do no credit to the Attorney-General or those with whom he is associated, and which certainly do not tend to improve the position in this country, politically or constitutionally. The Blue Shirts are going to be banned. What is their crime? Have they irritated the Attorney-General or the Minister for Justice? About that I have no doubt whatever. I know that this organisation to them is like a red rag to a bull. While they are doing this I wonder what else they have in mind.

I wonder has any undertaking been given to the I.R.A. that the Blue Shirts would be banned. At all events, the I.R.A. can carry on. To their credit I must say that there are some honest and respectable men in the I.R.A. If they have been misled, they have the courage of their convictions and they have never hesitated to live up to those convictions. Their opinions are contrary to the opinions of those of us on this side of the House. I do not know if they are contrary to the wishes and opinions of those on the Government Benches. From all that we can see, I am afraid that is not the case. That is the sad part of the story. I think it would be accurate to say that the I.R.A. are demanding terms. "If there is going to be a republic in this country," the I.R.A. say, "declare the republic." The people on this side of the House have not said, "Do not declare a republic," but, "Why do you not declare it if you think you are entitled to declare it?" I suggest that there is an undertaking and that there is some understanding. I want to be perfectly fair and impartial, but as far as I can judge that understanding is, "Suppress the Blue Shirts and we will not be hard on you."

It is not everybody who can be a genius. It would take a Cavan man to be a genius, and we can judge the ingenuity that emanates from that part of the country. When a Deputy, coming from the same county as I do, said that certain things have been done by Blue Shirts in that county I challenged that Deputy to give particulars, but there was no reply to that for the simple reason that no particulars can be given, except particulars of the crimes that are being committed by the people with whom the Party opposite are identified. Those crimes have been committed, they are on record. If they are proud of that record, I wish them luck. As far as the Government Party are concerned, I admit that the Blue Shirts are a terrible menace. They are a menace that will sweep the Government out of office.

I did not intend to intervene in this debate until I heard the speech of the Deputy who has just spoken. I certainly consider that that speech was a very audacious one coming from that Deputy. He talks about the administration of justice. In another place I told the Deputy at one time about a certain piece of so-called justice which was brought about in his own native town. A prominent supporter of his Party was put in the dock on a criminal charge, and after the first hearing the prosecution was dropped and nothing further was heard about it. It would be interesting if the Deputy would tell us who pulled the wires in that case.

Tell us the case.

The Hanly case.

He is a supporter of yours.

He is not; he is a supporter of yours.

He is no man's child.

The Deputy's respect for free speech was exemplified a few days ago when he ordered a Press reporter to whom he objected away from one of his meetings. The Deputy's respect for free speech was also shown when the chairman at that meeting called on the crowd to deal forcibly and in a physical manner with anybody who objected to any statement made from the platform.

Do you suggest that I made that statement?

No, but I suggest that you stood by while the chairman made it, and did not object. In other words, you stood there while the crowd were asked to assault physically any person who objected to anything that was said from the platform. With regard to things that happened in County Mayo, there was a deplorable and dirty raid on Pat Gavin's house. I condemned it then, and I condemn it now. But that was dealt with by law, and nobody condoned it. I did not approve of the action of this man in the other case that is still pending. I do not approve of it now. Will Deputy Davis tell us about people coming away from the Blue Shirt meeting in Swinford who went into a house in Kilkelly and wrecked it? Will he tell us about the Blue Shirt mobilisation in the town of Ballinrobe about a fortnight ago, at which iron bars and knuckle-dusters were used?

Yes, and the raid on the priest's house in Straide.

Yes, the priest's house in Straide. I agree that was absolutely wrong, but I am not afraid to tell both sides of the story. I am not afraid to face up to both sides of the story, but the Deputy took care not to face up to both sides of the story. I am a great deal younger than the Deputy, but I have a fairly long memory in Irish politics. As several speakers remarked here to-day, interruptions at meetings and rows at meetings are not new in Ireland. I was a very small boy when I saw rows at meetings, and very ugly rows, too. I will recall to the Deputy's mind the ugly political fights he was mixed up with from time to time. I will recall to his mind the famous O'Kelly fight in the County Mayo. There was no military organisation in those days and no I.R.A. in those days.

I have a distinct recollection of meetings where only for the large force of R.I.C. present lives would have been lost. I have always seen rows at political meetings. I myself have attended meetings and got very rough handling at them. I took my medicine. I had the doubtful pleasure of being pulled off a platform one time and getting a damned good kicking. I did not grouse about it. I did not go down the country moaning about it and talking about the terrible outrage on free speech. Any person who ever entered politics and is not prepared to take his does of these things, must be a very innocent person indeed.

I have listened here to-night to a number of speakers who were mixed up with certain movements with myself in the past. Anybody who did not know them would imagine from the plain innocent way in which they spoke that they were all dear little innocent children, lighthearted boys who were only going into these associations in the happy spirit of fun, donning blue shirts to see how well they would look in them, and to see how they would attract the nice girls and——

It seems they did.

——and with no thought in their minds of a military organisation. They had nothing at all to do with these things in the past. They knew nothing about them. They were totally innocent of them. But a good many of us had experience relating to those things in the past, and we know from what small beginnings they have started. None of us had any illusions when we went into them at the start. We had very definite objects in our minds. We kept those objects in our minds all the time, and we pursued them, and we built up an organisation. But we did not hesitate to use every bluff and every pretence that would cod the other fellow. The people on those benches opposite who were in organisations of that type with me, and who did the things I am now speaking of, used every bluff and every pretence to cod the British and take advantage of every technical flaw in the law and to bluff them. They knew what they were doing as well as I knew what I was doing, and they did it, and I did it. Now they want everybody in this country to believe that they are not doing the same thing, that they are not trying to play the same game. Let them be honest about it at least, and admit the truth.

If there are Deputies in those benches, like Deputy MacDermot, who knew nothing about those things, who had no experience of them, it is different. It is quite possible that they may be throwing dust in Deputy MacDermot's eyes, but I can assure them that they are not throwing dust in some of our eyes. Certainly I am glad to see that there are men on the Government Benches who have had a little bit too much experience of those things to be blind to the implications behind such movements as the Blue Shirts. We know well what they are, and what they mean. We know well what the men who thought of them, the men who designed them and who are the driving force behind them, have in mind. It is because they are a danger and a menace to the rights of the ordinary citizens in this country that I am voting for this Bill. As long as I have been in Irish politics I have always voted against coercion of every sort. It is because I know the dangers in them, and it is because I know the men who have thought them out that I am supporting this Bill. I call on every Deputy in the House who has the interests of the country at heart to support the Bill.

The obvious comment on the speech we have just listened to from Deputy Walsh is that it is not always wise and fair to judge other people by ourselves. Several speakers on this and on former occasions have enquired: "What is the use of the blue shirt, what is the garment for, tell us that?" They have gone so far as to say that nobody has attempted to answer their question. That is not true. Deputy Dr. O'Higgins, a week or two ago, gave one answer to that question. He said that the blue shirt uniform, if you like to call it so, had been found convenient for the purpose of maintaining peace, order and discipline amongst our followers, and seeing to it that illegalities were not committed. That is a perfectly sensible answer as far as it goes, but I will admit freely that it does not go the whole way. There is another reason, and I do not see why we should not frankly admit it, and that is, that we consider ourselves justified in making use of any adventitious aid in making virtue attractive. Virtue needs to be made attractive. We are preaching very dull doctrines to members of the League of Youth, doctrines that hitherto in Ireland had absolutely no glamour; considered to be entirely lacking in romance, lacking in spirit, and lacking even in patriotism. We are teaching them obedience to the law. What could be duller, I suggest, than teaching obedience to the law, love of the law, and determination to see that individual citizens get the benefit of the law? When we have forces existing—no matter what the Minister for Industry and Commerce may say—with any amount of connivance and encouragement from Government Benches, when we have revolutionary forces existing, and roping in the youth of the country by means of the glamour that hangs around them, we are justified, and more than justified in doing whatever we can to invest law and order, and decency, with glamour too.

I made at the outset of the debate on the closure motion what I thought was a conciliatory speech. I dare say it might have been more conciliatory than many members of my own Party might like, and my reward was to be denounced by the Minister for Industry and Commerce as a hypocrite. I think this will be a fair test of hypocrisy. Does one say different things in the Dáil from what one says down the country to one's supporters?

Different things on two occasions on the same day.

That would be stupidity rather than hypocrisy. I claim confidently that the dull doctrines that I have been preaching in this House I have been preaching consistently in the country, and there is not a single thing of a conciliatory character that I urged in this House I have not also urged in the country. The Minister considers it to be my duty, apparently, to act as a censor of the publication known as the "United Irishman." I do not consider that to be my duty, nor do I consider, because he reads aloud some fragment from a report, that I am therefore equally bound to get up and to denounce that publication on the strength of the fragment. There have been much more obvious duties resting on the members of the Front Benches opposite that they have not fulfilled. When I spoke on this Bill a fortnight ago I quoted utterances delivered in this House, and outside of it, that have never been disowned by the Minister or by the Front Benches. There was one utterance in particular, in regard to the I.R.A., which was made here in the presence of the President, that I never heard specifically denounced or disowned. Another utterance was made in the Seanad by Senator Comyn that I never heard disavowed. Not only that, but there were utterances of Ministers in the country, such as that of the Minister for Finance, which I referred to on the last occasion, which I never heard denounced by them in the Dáil. If I wanted to indulge in that kind of language, surely that would justify me in accusing all of them of being hypocrites. Is it right for us to be using language of that type at all? I suggest that it is not, and that when somebody gets up and seriously puts forward a serious offer to deal with this matter in a conciliatory and co-operative spirit, if it can be done, it is not a very sensible or a very patriotic thing for the Minister to get up and call it hypocrisy.

Deputy MacDermot gave us a definition of hypocrisy as the saying of different things outside the Dáil from what was said in the Dáil. I am prepared to accept that as a test of the Deputy's hypocrisy. We heard a speech from Deputy MacDermot to-day, in which he talked about promoting conciliation and goodwill, in which he described the Blue Shirt organisation as being maintained for the purpose of invoking respect for law and securing the maintenance of peace and order. He spoke for quite a considerable time in that strain. I put to him the acid test that he has laid down, to reconcile that speech with the various extracts I read to him from the official organ of his Party, and the reports of speeches made by members of that Party throughout the country.

Not by me.

I take it that Deputy MacDermot is not speaking his own policy in that matter, but is speaking the policy of his Party. That is the point I am trying to get at. Either Deputy MacDermot is a hypocrite, or else he must repudiate the utterances of those with whom he is associated. He cannot reconcile his utterance with theirs.

I do not know that until I see theirs.

I will read them.

I have already said that I am not prepared to deal with fragments of articles.

I read extracts from articles that appeared on many occasions in the official organ of that Party. I do not want to accuse Deputy MacDermot of being a hypocrite, and neither do I want him accused of being lacking in moral courage. One or the other must be correct. Either the Deputy spoke here with his tongue in his cheek, knowing that no other member of his Party was prepared to subscribe to his sentiments, knowing that different sentiments were continually being expressed by his colleagues, or else he spoke honestly, but when given the opportunity had not the courage definitely and openly to stand up to his own views and to repudiate the contrary views expressed by those with whom he is allied. Is it going to promote peace, goodwill and respect for law to have this organ of their Party definitely challenging the authority of the Government, contending that the Government's right and authority to make laws is open to question, asserting that the Government is in fact a mere gang of gangsters, and that they use the power to feather their own nests?

Are these words used: "To feather their own nests"?

I am starting at the head of the paragraph with the leaded type:

"But it should not be understood that there is a breach between Mr. Lemass and his leader on this matter. They are both quite at one. The policy of both is to make fine-sounding speeches, while at the same time they prostitute the authority received from God to serve the ends of the gangsters instead of Government. For, while conscious of the respect that is due to a Government, we assert that Mr. de Valera is a gangster leader as well as the head of a constitutional Government. His office of President of the Executive Council is availed of by him to serve his personal political purposes and those of his gangster allies."

Peace, goodwill, conciliation and respect for law! Will Deputy MacDermot at least admit that the views and sentiments that he gave expression to to-day cannot be reconciled with what I have just read? That is obvious to any intelligent man. Either the Deputy knows that, and yet made that speech deliberately for the purpose of deceiving members of the Dáil and the public, on the attitude and policy of his Party, or else he made that speech while, at the same time, because for reasons best known to himself, he would not associate with the speech what is required, namely, a repudiation of these sentiments.

"The Government has received its authority for the purpose of promoting the common good. In so far as its power is used for that end, it has the right to expect our loyal obedience to its laws. But in so far as it departs from that end, its ordinances have not the sanction of authority."

Hear, hear!

Deputy McMenamin says "hear, hear" to that.

I say it is sound morally.

They are going to set themselves up here as an authority superior to the Government. They claim that it is for them to judge whether the Government's acts are designed to promote the common good.

That is not the point.

"The Government has received its authority for the purpose of promoting the common good. In so far as its power is used for that end, it has the right to expect our loyal obedience to its laws, but, in so far as it departs from that end, its ordinances have not the sanction of authority."

That applies to any Government here or elsewhere.

Who is to judge that— Deputy McMenamin?

Certainly, in so far as I am the citizen.

There is only one authority in this country. We recognise one authority as the authority we are going to submit to, and that is the authority of the people. If Deputy McMenamin, or Deputy MacDermot, or the writer of that article, or General O'Duffy, choose to set themselves up against that authority, they are going to find, as many other people found in the past, that the Irish people are stronger than they.

Go to the people on this Bill.

This is another example of how respect for the law is promoted by Deputy MacDermot and his associates. This is a reference to a section of the police force, established under the authority of this Parliament and acting under the authority of the elected Government of this nation:

"On the other hand, it is likely that the reason for sending ordinary Guards along with the Harriers, instead of entrusting the raids entirely to the latter, was to prevent the occurrence of violence and looting by the Bashi-Bazouks. It is, however, impossible not to feel that the employment of the Harriers on such raids presages evil and bloodshed. There are not a few who think that the Harriers were used in last week's searches for the purpose of familiarising them with the internal geography of houses into which they will later make midnight incursions without the check supplied by the presence of ordinary police."

Respect for the law, support for authority, the promotion of peace, conciliation and good-will! Is it any wonder that I described Deputy MacDermot, not only as a hypocrite, but also as a humbug? He will not succeed in humbugging Deputies on this side, and I doubt if he will succeed in humbugging the people throughout the country with speeches such as he delivered to-day. I do not know whether or not he makes speeches like that throughout the country. I do not trouble to read the reports of his speeches in the Press, but I must assume that the speeches he and his associates make are similar in tone to the stuff they write in their weekly propagandist sheet. Since Deputy MacDermot cannot reconcile the extracts I have read with the speech he has delivered, either he has got to be condemned as an arrant humbug, a conscious hypocrite, or he has got to repudiate publicly these sentences and dissociate himself from the writers of them.

It is true, as Deputy Walsh pointed out, that we have behind us a certain amount of experience which enables us to test the sincerity and to discern the motives of those with whom Deputy MacDermot is associated which he has not got. It is not the first time in Irish history that a military organisation was brought into existence and organised to undertake certain operations without the knowledge of the leaders of the movement. It is not the first time that an organisation which had high sounding principles set out in its literature and which was nominally controlled by people of honest purpose, was, in fact, controlled by a secret organisation, like the resurrected I.R.B., with which General O'Duffy, Deputy Mulcahy and others have been associated. We doubt very much that Deputy MacDermot knows anything about the real intentions of those who are the effective masters of the organisation he is defending here to-day. We know these people quite well, and Deputy MacDermot cannot pass them off on us as enthusiastic youths anxious to spring to the defence of constituted authority and to help the forces of the peace in preserving order.

Who are they?

We have heard a lot of talk about them, but we have not seen them. We have seen photographs of people in blue shirts and we know them well. We know too much about them— a lot more than Deputy MacDermot knows. They cannot pass themselves off on us as pure-souled patriots. At long last we have had from Deputy MacDermot what we have been seeking since the discussion on this Bill began —an explanation of the reasons he considers uniforms necessary for his Party.

I did not say "necessary."

Why uniforms should be worn by his Party. I tried to point out to Deputies here before that, if their aim is to achieve power by the ordinary methods of political agitation, they do not need uniforms, and that, in fact, they will find, in due course, the uniforms are a handicap. It is, certainly, clear that they are not necessary. Fianna Fáil got into power without the aid of uniforms.

With the aid of the I.R.A.

Against the active hostility of the I.R.A. There is no question about that at all. I cannot claim to have the intimate knowledge of the I.R.A. that the leader of the Party opposite claims to have, but I know that not merely in many cases did they not help us, as is alleged, but that they actively opposed us.

For whom did they vote?

I think that most of them did not vote at all. I do not think that the number of votes they influenced was very great, but, whatever influence they could use, was not used in the manner Deputies opposite allege. However, that is not the point. The Fianna Fáil organisation was constituted on normal lines, and, proceeding by normal methods, reached a very high degree of efficiency and succeeded in achieving its end—putting the Fianna Fáil Government into office. It was able to do that because it had a policy. Deputy Morrissey and Deputy Rice tried to explain away to-day the Fianna Fáil victory in the last two elections, on the ground of the efficiency of its organisation. They said some things about myself in that connection. That is all bunkum. If Deputies opposite think they can achieve power merely by the efficiency of their organisation and by holding a number of public meetings, they are on the wrong track. I can speak with some authority on this matter, because I know that the Fianna Fáil organisation would never have achieved its object, no matter how efficient its organisation, or how many public meetings it held, if it had not had a solid, constructive and attractive policy to lay before the people. The first thing the Party opposite must get before they will be even seriously considered by the people is a policy.

We have a policy.

You have not one policy but twenty policies. You have got to have one policy, whether it be Deputy MacDermot's policy or Deputy Cosgrave's policy or General O'Duffy's policy or Deputy Morrissey's policy. You have got to stick to that one policy. You can add to that policy later if you like, but at the present time we can get, on any single question of public interest, not less than twenty policies from the Party opposite. A uniform, we were told, is necessary for them. It was not necessary for Fianna Fáil or other political parties, but it is necessary for them in order that they may be able to maintain discipline amongst their members. Judging by some of the youths I have seen photographed in the newspapers, it will require more than a shirt to maintain discipline amongst them. Is it necessary that, in order to get discipline, the supporters of the Party opposite should be regimented in the way in which they propose to regiment them? One gets discipline in an army by such tactics, but members of an army are not supposed to think. In fact, their instructions are not to think. The private in a company or the officer in a unit has only one function, and that is to carry into execution the plan decided upon by those higher up. If he has any doubts about the plans and he writes up and asks the general why he decides upon such a course of action, he becomes subject to discipline. Presumably the only way the leaders of the Party opposite can hope to get any unanimity in policy is to occupy the minds of their followers about coloured shirts and new salutes. If the followers of the Party opposite give the slightest consideration to the reason why that Party failed, as a Government, and the prospects for this country, if they were ever returned as a Government, not one of them, even in the glamour of a blue shirt would take any steps to put them back upon the Government Benches again. They are justified, therefore, says Deputy MacDermot, in making use of any adventitious aids that come to them, to make virtue attractive. They will want a lot of adventitious aids to make their type of virtue attractive. That is the kind of argument that we had from Deputy MacDermot and from Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney at a previous stage of this Bill. They told us it was necessary to regiment and uniform their supporters, in order to secure, not merely discipline amongst them, not merely to attract in enthusiastic youths by the glamour of the uniform but, also, to maintain order and to enable order to be maintained wherever they assembled. Again I want to be told where they think that should stop, and why they think the sole right to act in that way should be conferred upon them. If the Party opposite feel they are entitled to establish a military or a semi-military organisation in units, and wear uniforms for this purpose, why stop at loaded sticks and knuckle-dusters? Will they not, in due course, think they are entitled to add a machine-gun or two as another adventitious aid in promoting the kind of virtue that the Deputy is in favour of? Again, I ask them, if they are not ready to answer why they are prepared to stop at loaded sticks and knuckle-dusters and not go further, why they should have that right to organise their supporters, and expect no similar development to take place in regard to another party if this Bill does not become law? Is it not the common experience in every country where militarism is progressing and developing, where one party is trained and regimented that another party adopts the same methods, until you come to the state that the nation concerned is divided into two disciplined and armed camps, and that civil war is the outcome? And however Deputy MacDermot may talk, the certainty is that if this Bill does not become law a similar development may be expected here. And no matter what influence he or the Government, or any other responsible people may exercise to prevent that development, it will not be sufficient. If he thinks this preposterous method is going to lead to peace and goodwill and conciliation, he is a simpler man than Deputy Dowdall believes he is.

The debate upon this Bill is beginning to lag. I think everything that can be said about it has been said. I know now that Deputy Dillon has entered the House that it is all going to be said again. That is inevitable. You could no more stop the tide coming in by drawing a line across the sands than prevent another debate now that Deputy Dillon has arrived. He will have nothing original to say, and I advise Deputy MacDermot to have a little conversation with him before he rises to speak. He may not be aware of the line that Deputy MacDermot took to-day, and it is well to have these two, at least, speak with a unanimous voice, even though they are contradicted by other members of the Party. Deputy MacDermot referred to the utterances occasionally made by members of the Fianna Fáil Party and even by certain Ministers on occasions, and which have not been repudiated. I do not know whether these utterances, to which he referred, were made here or had any bearing upon matters of policy. There were, in the main, remarks of a nature that one says in the play of heated debate. Very frequently one regrets the provocation that induced these utterances. But the quotations I read were not of that description. They were written in cold blood, set up in type, read and checked by proof readers, printed and sent out to be read in the country—Bashi-Bazouks, included. Deputy MacDermot again explained these statements as irresponsible statements uttered in the heat of some political controversy. They were not; they were written in the calm of the editorial office under the presidency of the grand high council of the Fine Gael Party. They were published and distributed by the grand high council which paid the editor his salary in connection with them, and in recognition of the good work he had done to promote respect for the Party and to spread comfort and consolation amongst their followers. If Deputy MacDermot should speak again or if he could induce Deputy Dillon to speak I hope we may get from either of them withdrawal of the Deputy's previous speech or else a repudiation of the sentences that I have read to him from the official organ of his Party.

I want to spend one or two minutes upon the complaint that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has been laying so much stress upon in regard to United Ireland. To begin with, so far as I am aware the editor has no salary, but that is a minor point. The expressions “gangster Government” and “Bashi-Bazouks” do not happen to be quite in my style, nor can they be described as peaceful or conciliatory. But I never claimed that a political party could conduct its campaign, all the time, in an atmosphere of peace and conciliation, and it is absurd to suggest that one has to reconcile inconsistencies between peaceful terms used one day and more vehement terms used another day. The use of violent expressions of that kind I, personally, do not like, but there is nothing in that which involves any point of principle. There was another quotation made which might be regarded as involving a point of principle, and that is one that seemed to imply that private citizens have the right to stop and consider whether a law should be obeyed or not. Personally, I utterly disagree with that. Of course I am dependent on one or two sentences the Minister read aloud to me. There may be other things in the article that modify what he read, but as he read it it is either a truism—not worth saying at all—or else it has a dangerous tendency to encourage private citizens to discriminate between the laws they choose to obey and the laws that they do not choose to obey. In that latter sense I do not hesitate to repudiate it absolutely and completely.

The Minister need not have been in such a hurry to accuse me of moral cowardice, because if he had attended more closely to what I said earlier to-day, he would have found that I did at one important point, without any encouragement from him, flatly contradict something that had appeared in the columns of United Ireland. I am not in the least afraid to do that if I consider that the occasion warrants it. It is absurd to suggest that things printed in a propagandist paper—it has often to be got out hastily, and has not got the funds to have elaborate arrangements such as exist in the case of ordinary weekly papers, where you have a calm editorial room, and so forth—are on a different basis altogether from ordinary speeches down the country, and that you have a right to expect something more deliberate. You have not. I leave the matter at that, except to say that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is quite wrong if he supposes that we think that the blue shirts, or any kind of uniform are necessary to enable us to whip them at the next general election. We will whip them in shirts of any kind.

I intend to support this amendment. I have no hesitation in saying that if the Minister were to undertake to accept it, I for one would undoubtedly vote with the Government on the rest of the Bill. During the course of his speech to-day Deputy Davin put up the argument that because four or five members on these benches had never worn the blue shirt that, therefore, they were not entitled to advocate the cause of the Blue Shirts.

I did not say that.

That was the effect of the Deputy's argument. At that stage in his argument I interjected a remark. I asked the Deputy if he were earning 24/- a week——

I was under the impression that this argument had concluded. If the Deputy wishes to reopen it, he had better quote what he did say. That is not what he said.

This is not the part of my remarks that was withdrawn at all. I think I am entitled at this point to give an explanation. At that juncture I was putting a question to this effect: Was the Deputy earning 24/- a week?

What the Deputy actually said was that I never earned 24/- a week.

If a statement was made in this House and subsequently withdrawn, the practice of the House has been that the whole incident is then dropped and not further referred to.

And I intend to drop the whole incident in so far as the remarks made by me and Deputy Davin were unreservedly withdrawn. I am not now dealing with that part of the incident which was concerned with any withdrawals. I accept Deputy Davin's statement now as to what I did say, and all that I want to say is that the significance of that remark, coming from me, was that it was just as relevant for me to argue that the Deputy was precluded because of the fact that he was not earning 24/- a week——

That is not what the Deputy said at all.

——from advocating the cause of these men as it was for him to say that men who did not wear blue shirts could not advocate the cause of the Blue Shirts. Now I leave the incident at that, because after that remark by me a scene ensued. Remarks were passed in respect of which withdrawals were made unreservedly on both sides under the rules of the House.

The fundamental of this Bill is touched on by this amendment. It is new to me that legislation of this type should be introduced, because the ordinary principle which governs the initiation of legislation, as I understand it, is, first of all, that the intended legislation should have the support of a large body of public opinion in the country, and, secondly, that it is the criminal, and not the victim of the criminal, who should be dealt with by legislation. Deputy O'Higgins to-day gave us a very good example of what I mean. He said that if an epidemic of stealing gold watch chains broke out in the City of Dublin, and that the Government, instead of utilising the ordinary law for the apprehension and conviction of the thieves, were to legislate so as to prevent ordinary peaceful citizens from wearing watch-chains, that such a course would be equivalent to the sort of legislation which we are now discussing and which this amendment is designed to cure. So far as the support of a large section of the community is concerned, I have no hesitation in thinking that such support is non-existent for this measure. The idea of this Bill, and the idea which this amendment is designed to destroy is, that because Blue Shirts are objected to by a certain small section of the community—that section being a rowdy and hooliganistic section— therefore the Blue Shirts must be banned. Everyone knows that the solid, decent support behind the present Government is not in favour of this Bill. Everyone knows that the thinking Deputies on those benches do not believe that this measure is going to do the Fianna Fáil Party any good throughout the country. There is no doubt whatsoever about that. The President is very fond of speaking of mandates, but there has been no mandate from the people for the passage of this measure. The Government, before passing such a measure as this, should, I submit, go to the country and get sanction for it from the people. We all know what has been happening in this country since the last general election. At the last general election, from the first week of the election campaign, it was absolutely impossible in the South City of Dublin to secure a hearing.

That is not true.

Deputy Tom Kelly says that is not true. I say with an absolutely clear recollection of what happened that for the first week of the general election campaign it was almost impossible——

——to make oneself heard at a meeting.

The reason is obvious. There was so much noise going on from supporters of the Government that it was impossible to make oneself heard.

You changed some of your speakers.

The Deputy is referring to an incident which occurred after the A.C.A. had reduced the interrupters to orderliness. I am not going into an incident which seems to have a peculiar interest for Deputy Briscoe, because we would be talking in riddles and the rest of the House would not understand.

The public would not stand for it and you ceased it.

What is happening here is perfectly obvious. This Bill is dictated from precisely the same quarter as that from which the dismissal of General O'Duffy was dictated. If General O'Duffy were not leader of the Blue Shirt movement, I have absolutely no doubt but that this measure would not have come before the House. The same people who, through the columns of An Phoblacht week after week, demanded the dismissal of General O'Duffy have been crying out for the suppression of the Blue Shirts and, just as General O'Duffy was dismissed at their beck, so now the Blue Shirts are being banned, at precisely the same dictate. If that principle is going to be introduced into legislation, all I have to say about it is the sooner the Irish people learn about it, as they will undoubtedly learn about it at the next general election, the sooner will the present Government be driven out of office.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 56; Níl, 71.

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Dolan, James Nicholas.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Reilly, John Joseph.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Wall, Nicholas.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keeley, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Doherty, Joseph.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Bennett and O'Donovan; Níl: Deputies Little and Moylan.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendments No. 3 to 11, inclusive, not moved.
9 o'clock.

I formally move amendment No. 12:—

In line 20, after the word "device" to add the words "but does not include a badge or emblem indicative of membership of a trade union which was in existence on the 23rd day of February, 1934."

What does it mean?

We should like to know what it means.

They are waiting for the boss.

It is covered by amendment No. 18—both amendments Nos. 12 and 13 are covered.

How does that meet it?

Is the Minister accepting it?

He is not accepting it. He is codding you. Watch him. Discretion seems to be the better part of valour on the other man's part.

It is met by amendment No. 18. Badges are left out in No. 18.

Amendment No. 12 is not being moved.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 13:—
In line 23, after the word "persons" to insert the words "other than a trade union which was in existence on the 23rd day of February, 1934."

Amendment No. 13 is somewhat different because it refers to the possession of a badge in respect of a proclamation made by the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána in a particular area. Is the Minister excluding that?

I think amendment No. 18 is sufficient to cover that.

Amendment No. 13 has nothing at all to do with badges, but it desires to exclude the possibility of an association being regarded as an association under this Bill if it was a trade union which was in existence on the 23rd February, 1934. The Minister is rather puzzled, I think, by the reference to badges. I wonder if he has anything to say with regard to those trade unions to which this amendment referred. I understood the amendment was moved.

Yes. I take it the amendment is moved as Deputy Norton spoke.

That being so, and in view of the terrible danger that threatens trade unions in this country according to the Labour Party, I would expect a more vigorous defence of the trade unions to be put up on the section. I understand a political levy is to be raised from trade unions at the present time for the purpose of fighting the Fine Gael Party, and for the purpose of defending trade unions against the attack that the Fine Gael Party propose to make on them. It is very depressing to those of us who have the interests of trade unions and trade unionists at heart, and whose attitude towards them is entirely different from what members of the Labour Party suggest, to think that the defence of the trade unions in this important measure is as futile as the Deputy would show that it is. I do think that it ought to be put completely outside the range of the present Executive Council to include trade unions in the bodies which they propose to attack under this Bill. I, for one, object to this amendment being withdrawn, having been moved, and I think the House should divide against the Minister if the Minister keeps up the attitude he is taking up on the matter.

I am supporting this amendment. I think, Sir, this amendment resulted from my intervention on the Second Reading of this measure. I then suggested that perhaps it might easily occur that a member of a trade union, who was wearing his trade union badge, could be held up on the street and charged with an offence under this section.

That has nothing to do with this amendment at all.

Read No. 18.

It is exactly the same thing—"or badge." Under the amendment which the Minister has accepted he agrees that a person wearing a trade union badge would not come within the ambit of this Bill. I feel that even under its altered form the section is capable of being misconstrued if the words suggested by Deputy Mulcahy are not inserted. I, therefore, support the amendment.

I do not know if Deputy Mulcahy knows what a trade union is. Certainly he does not know what a trade union is for the purposes of an Act of Parliament. There are very extraordinary associations registered as trade unions, a number of which have nothing to do with labour, or the organisation of labour. The effect of the amendment proposed would, of course, be very largely to nullify the Bill, inasmuch as it would be open to any organisation to adopt to itself one of those associations which are in existence and which have nothing to do with the organisation of labour. I think the Deputy is aware of one well-known person in Dublin who adopted this attitude and made quite a lot of money out of it. The effect of the amendment would be to open the gate so wide that the Bill would be entirely futile.

We have come to a very desirable position, and it is a very good thing that this point has to be decided. Now, the Labour Party is beginning to feel coercion. Now, the members of the Labour Party are being brought to a realisation of what the significance of this Bill is. The Labour Party are going to be put to the test now of voting in this House whether that Government should have the right to suppress every trade union in this country, or whether they should not. Deputy Corish got up in Wexford a few days ago, and announced that he had voted for the Blue Shirts Bill because he was satisfied that Deputy Cosgrave and others were aiming at setting up a dictatorship in this country. I wish Deputy Corish were here to repeat that.

Was that in Wexford?

That was in Wexford.

Look up your paper again.

I have the paper.

Look it up again.

I will not look it up again. I know very well what the Deputy said. Deputy Davin cannot deny that he said he voted for the Blue Shirt Bill because he knew, or believed, that Deputy Cosgrave and others were trying to set up a dictatorship. That statement Deputy Corish cannot have believed. That statement everyone in Wexford knows was made without the belief which would justify making it. To-day we have the position in which Deputy Corish's own colleagues are going to walk into the lobby for the purpose of giving that Government the right to set up a dictatorship in this country, and to suppress every organisation, labour and otherwise, which may seek to defend the rights of the citizens of this country against that Government, or against any other force which seeks to suppress the rights and liberties of working men and every other man in the country. The Labour Party ought to realise what they are going to do. Deputy Norton has opened this pit under his own feet. It is up to him now to show the country whether he has the courage of his convictions, or whether he has any convictions at all. There are a good many people in this country beginning to doubt whether he has any, or whether he ever had any. There was a time, in this country, when the Labour movement stood resolutely and consistently against coercion. They sold their souls to the Fianna Fáil Party and they alone know what they got for them.

That is something the Deputy does not possess.

Whether he possesses it or not, it is not for sale.

What was the Centre Party sold for? A Front Bench seat?

They have sold their souls to Fianna Fáil, and they are now being required to pay the price. They are now being required to deliver themselves. They are now being required to sell every labouring man in this country into the bondage of the Ministers on those seats. They are now being required to set their names to something which for the first time in the history of this country, since trade unions were set up, gives the Government the right to suppress a trade union because it is a trade union. And the Minister knows it. The Minister tries to make the case that there are more forms of trade unions than one. It will be a poor consolation to the working men of this country to know that their rights, which every Labour leader in the history of the Labour movement of this country, and every other country, has fought for, have been bartered away to-night by the Irish Labour Party. There is no Labour representative in the whole of Europe but would vote for that amendment, except the Labour representatives of the Irish workmen. There is not a Labour representative, no matter how depraved, in any country in the world but would resist that attempt on the part of that Government to take the powers they seek to take under this Bill. It is up to Deputy Norton now to show whether the stand he pretends to take is a fraud or not. He has got his chance, and he ought to demonstrate to the working men of this country that he is prepared to defend them when it costs something to defend them, or he ought to clear out for ever from the working men movement in this country.

Occasionally, Deputy Dillon shows himself in his true colours. Formerly, he used to pose in this House as a true democrat, an admirer and defender of the Labour Party and of the rights of the worker. To-night, he said—and it shows his real mind in regard to Labour movements everywhere—that there is no Labour leader, no matter how depraved, but would vote for this amendment.

The amendment is to withdraw that.

No Labour leader, no matter how depraved! What depravity is there in being a Labour representative or a Labour leader?

There is great depravity in being an unworthy Labour leader.

What depravity in the minds of all true democrats, or what depravity in the mind of Deputy Dillon, is there in being a Labour leader?

He would not wear a blue shirt.

Nobody opposite will be able to answer that question and no member of the Fianna Fáil Party will be able to answer that question because no person in this House knows how deeply and how sincerely in his heart Deputy Dillon hates the cause of Labour. His unguarded word has exposed for the first time in this House the real mentality of Deputy Dillon. He said that if the Labour Party do not vote for this amendment they will vote to hand over the control of the Labour movement to the Ministers sitting on these benches. I do not know whether Deputy Dillon was as insincere in May, 1932, as he was sincere to-night when he let slip that unguarded expression which reveals his true mind, because I remember him voting here for a Budget, introduced by members of the Government on these benches, because it was a good Budget and a Christian Budget, as he said, and a Budget that was going to do something at last for the workers. He believed then that we could do something for the workers and that we had the cause of Labour and the labouring classes at heart.

I got a sad awakening.

We have not changed. We still remain on these benches. We still stand in public for the same programme but Deputy Dillon has changed. He has undergone a translation——

I realised that your promises were only statements.

——from the benches that were formerly occupied by a Party ever doomed to vanish—the sectional Farmers' Party in this country—and now occupies, as Deputy Norton said, a position on the Front Benches opposite. It is that gentleman, who has changed his position but who has not changed his spots, and who remains still as he was then, the enemy of Irish labour, the enemy of Irish freedom, who now ventures to condemn the Labour Party in respect of this amendment. It is pointed out that General O'Duffy to-morrow might take over one of these moribund organisations and call himself a trade union—and there is nothing to be wondered at in that, because the General has the audacity to call himself many things and poses as many things before the Irish people; one of his latest poses is to exhibit himself as a friend of the workers—it would not be any sort of difficult transformation for that gentleman to change himself to-morrow into, as I have said, a trade union and claim exemption for any association of persons, who might band themselves together under one of these resurrected names, from the provisions of this Bill.

This is an important amendment. I do not think there is any use in endeavouring to cloud the issue by rising to any heights of oratory on this simple amendment. Anybody who has any experience of trade unionism knows that the things referred to by the Minister for Finance could not possibly happen. The wording of the section as it stands is very clear. This section will apply to the members of any trade union in this country and it will give the Government power to prevent the members of a trade union from wearing the badge of the particular trade union to which they belong. I do not think there is much use in going outside the scope of the amendment or of bringing in matters that are quite irrelevant. The wording is very clear. It refers to "any combination of persons" and Deputy Norton's amendment has one purpose and one purpose only—to ensure that before the Bill is passed, this section will not apply to the members of trade unions in this country. I think it is quite obvious that, as it stands, at the moment, it can apply and can be made applicable to the members of a trade union and prevent them from doing anything in furtherance of the objects for which trade unionism stands if those objects might, at any time in the future, be at variance with opinions held by Ministers at present. I think the thing is very clear and I would ask the Government to accept the amendment proposed by Deputy Norton.

The deletion of the word "badge" from sub-section (2) of Section 2 will make the section read:

"Every person who wears any uniform in contravention of the foregoing sub-section of this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section."

The exclusion of the word "badge" means that a person who wears a badge is consequently not guilty of an offence under the section.

But where is "badge" excluded?

The badge is excluded in the sub-section.

In what sub-section?

Will the Deputy read amendment No. 18?

We have not come to amendment No. 18 yet.

That is Section 2.

I am quoting sub-section (2) of Section 2.

And we are discussing amendment No. 13.

Would the Deputy read amendment No. 18?

We are discussing amendment No. 13. Look at amendment No. 13.

I have looked at amendment No. 13 and amendment No. 18, which deletes the word "badge."

If the Deputy is looking further than that, will he look at Section 5?

We are not dealing with Section 5.

We are dealing with Section 1.

We are not dealing with Section 5 at the moment. We are dealing with Section 2.

Would the Deputy read amendment No. 13 on the Paper?

What is all this concern for the trade unions to-night? The trade unions have some curious advisers to-night.

Hear, hear!

If one did not know that Deputy Dillon could not stop talking, and was a kind of political parrot in this House, one would be inclined to take, at its face value, the concern which he pretended to display for the trade union movement to-night. But look who is displaying the concern for the trade union movement—Deputy Dillon, who was one of the prominent people, in Ballaghaderreen, associated with a lock-out a few years ago, and one of the people associated with a wage-cutting campaign in Ballaghaderreen a few years ago. This is the gentleman who is interested in the trade union movement to-night. Insolence and hypocrisy never went further. Then we had Deputy Mulcahy bubbling over—he cannot contain himself——

In fact, we have everybody except trade unions in the amendment.

I will come to the Deputy in a minute. We had Deputy Mulcahy bubbling over in his anxiety to assist the trade union movement to-night—the Deputy, who, as a member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, prohibited a trade union from going on strike and issued a proclamation to that effect and who, when speaking in this House on the Saorstát Eireann United National Health Insurance Bill, made a most disgraceful and slanderous attack on a trade union insurance society which proved to be perfectly untrue and in respect of which the Deputy had subsequently to make a kind of apology. His dignity would not enable him to make a decent apology. These are the two gentlemen who are concerned about the trade union movement tonight—one Deputy who prohibited a strike and slandered a trade union insurance society, and another Deputy who was associated with a wage-cutting campaign in Ballaghaderreen and with a lock-out of the workers there. Those are the two advisers we have to-night.

What about the amendment?

The Deputy has got something to chew on now that he did not think he would get. I shall come to the amendment in good time. Deputy Dillon says that this Bill enables the Executive Council to suppress a trade union. Under what section does that come? Deputy Dillon is a lawyer. He has King's Counsel beside him to advise him. Where is the section in the Bill that gives that power?

Ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce. He admits it.

I should like Deputy Dillon to tell us where is the section which enables the Government to prohibit or proscribe a trade union.

The Minister says the power is there.

It is the section you sought to amend.

Will the Deputy read the section again, or will be get his legal adviser beside him to read it for him, and tell us under what section it is possible to proscribe a trade union? The Deputy has stated that it is possible to do so. Let us know under what section it can be done.

Under Section 5.

We have senior and junior counsel on the case now, and Deputy Mulcahy should not interrupt.

Will Deputy Norton give the senior counsel a fee for this advice?

Deputy Dillon is consulting his counsel—not I. Deputy Dillon is the client. Is he willing to indicate the section under which this can be done? He cannot do it.

I could do it, but I will not unless the Deputy gives me a fee.

He is a trade unionist.

I will do it without a fee.

That would be very unprofessional.

The Deputy is not long enough at the Bar. Deputy Dillon is silent now. He knows perfectly well that there is no section in this Bill under which a trade union can be proscribed.

Let Deputy Dillon break his silence, and we will be willing to give him some fee.

Deputy Dillon will answer you in good time.

Deputy Dillon knows now that the statement he made was incorrect in that respect, and that even if the Bill went through without amendment there was no section in it giving power to proscribe trade unions. I have not the slightest fear that trade unions will be proscribed by this Government; but if the Deputy's Party were in power, having regard to their known record in the past, I would have considerable doubts as to whether they would not exercise their powers and probably arrogate to themselves powers to suppress the trades union movement. If one had any doubt on that, we have had it recently proved by the statements of the leader of that Party outside. He has a scheme of his own—a new Italian scheme.

Ice cream.

If the ice were on the leader's head when he was making those statements there would be less nonsense in them. To give us an idea of what the Party opposite stands for in the matter of trade unions, we have the leader of the Party outside stumping the country with a ready-made Italian system to enable the trade unions to come in close contact with their employers, and to get a line on Deputy Dillon and his Party in the matter of trade unions, we have only to read the statements of General O'Duffy at Kildare, that the dearest right of workers, the right to withdraw their labour, is going to be prohibited under this great corporative State that the General talks about in Kildare. The Deputy talks about trade unions and his concern for them, and the leader outside says in Kildare that they are going to organise the State on such a basis as to withdraw from the workers the right which they fought for since the beginning of the trade union movement, namely, the right to withdraw their labour. It is a nice state of affairs when we get a Party of that kind, represented in this House by Deputy Dillon, with the leader outside wanting to suppress the trade unions and Deputy Dillon inside pretending to be concerned about them. Is not the whole attitude of the Party opposite towards trade unions abundantly illustrated by this corporative scheme of General O'Duffy, which is going to have Deputy Good and his bricklayer in the one organisation? Deputy Good laughs. Of course he laughs. Why, a cat would laugh at the scheme of organisation. We are to have Deputy Good and his bricklayer in the one organisation. There is to be no right to strike at all —no right to strike for the bricklayer. He may be permitted to work for his employer but he can never withdraw his labour, and, being economically inferior to his employer and having no right to withdraw his labour, what is going to happen is that the employer will have the right to dictate to him all the time. And we have this from a Party that to-night pretends to be concerned about trade unions. Deputy Dillon above all people on that bench, after his activities in Ballaghaderreen in connection with strikes and lockouts, ought to be the last to stand up and pretend to be concerned about trade unions.

I just rise to say a word or two about Deputy Norton. He has got up in this House and, like a good lawyer with a bad case, he directs all his attention to abusing the Opposition, but does not say a single word about the amendment before him. He simply asked one question in connection with it and made no statement whatever. He asked one question, and that was to state one section under which trade unions could be prevented from winning a battle. I am not a lawyer. I am a layman, but I think that it is quite evident that the Executive Council can do so under Section 2 and I think under Section 1, taken together. Section 2 says:—

It shall not be lawful for any person to wear any uniform or badge which is indicative of membership of, affiliation to, or support of a political party or an association ancillary to a political party.

Now, what is to prevent the Executive Council declaring any Labour Party or any Labour organisation to be a political party or an association ancillary to a political party?

We have no uniform.

Yes, but there is the question of a badge.

That is cut out.

It is in other parts of the Bill.

Supposing Deputy Norton and his Party came over here to the Opposition, could not the Executive Council declare that his organisation was an organisation ancillary to a political party? Deputy Norton, on this occasion, sells his liberty and gives himself over completely to the Government. He sells his independence and freedom and the independence and freedom of all those he represents. I challenge him to deny it. I shall leave it to others now because I am only a layman. The simplest man in the Assembly can see that under Section 2, taken in connection with Section 1, they have power to declare the organisation the Labour Party represent an ancillary to a political party, if the Labour Party do not do what they want them to do.

I listened with considerable astonishment to the discussion which has taken place here. It is quite evident that, after spending three days on this Bill on the Second Reading and the whole of to-day on the Committee Stage, Deputies opposite have not yet found out what it is about. I suggest to Deputies opposite that before they come in here to waste the time of the Dáil making speeches on a Bill they should at least read it. You cannot proscribe or suppress any organisation under this Bill, whether it is or is not a trade union. This is not a Bill to suppress any organisation.

Not openly.

Not openly or in any other way.

What about Section 5?

Under Section 5 or any other section a trade union or any other type of organisation cannot be suppressed under the Bill. This is a Bill that prohibits the wearing of uniform.

And to prohibit the wearing of badges under certain circumstances. Now Deputies will perhaps realise how relevant Deputy Norton was when referring to amendment No. 18, because amendment No. 18 takes badges out of the Bill except under Section 5 where a proclamation is required in order to proscribe a particular badge, in particular circumstances, in a particular district. I am sorry Deputy Dillon is not here. He might have found out what the Bill was about and saved himself the trouble of coming in to make another stupid speech based on ignorance, like all the speeches from Deputy Dillon. I am certain that if I had not intervened in time we would have the same type of stupid and ill-informed speech from Deputy McGilligan.

You are going to get one now that you would describe in that way and you will not be able to answer it.

I want to make it clear for the information of Deputies, who are apparently too lazy to read the Bill, that no organisation can be suppressed under the Bill. It is a Bill to proscribe the wearing of uniforms by any political organisation or any association ancillary to a political Party.

What about Section 5?

What is the purpose of the amendment then? Why was Deputy Norton's amendment on the Paper?

As the Bill stood, the wearing of a badge by an organisation ancillary to a political Party was made illegal without reference to any description of badge. There is a Government amendment deleting that particular provision of the Bill, so that it is possible for any member of a political Party or an organisation ancillary to a political Party to wear a badge unless and until, in the interests of public order, the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána prohibits it.

Why is the amendment on the Paper?

I have tried to explain to the Deputy and it is the best I can do.

Read amendment No. 18.

Now that Deputies are better informed about the Bill, perhaps they will be more pointed in their speeches.

We are nearly as wise now after the Minister has spoken as we ordinarily are after he has spoken.

That is not my fault.

We got a lot of what the Americans call "Chicago bull," but no information. We have heard about a "royal flush," but I think the Minister can be called a "four flusher." Deputy Norton continually talks about a parrot. It is very easy to teach a parrot small, simple words like "withdraw." I am sure he has said "pretty polly" to himself very often, but "withdraw" is the word he has learned best. Deputy Davin talked about getting a red shirt. It would fade to the faintest white with a tinge of yellow in it if any Minister held up his hands to the Deputy. Really nobody should have any interest in trade unions if trade unions have any interest in the two Deputies who have put up such a craven show to-night. What was the meaning of putting down the amendment? Did the Deputies apprehend some danger? They surely did, and they are now relieved because the Minister for Industry and Commerce stood up and said they must have power to suppress trade unions.

Those were his words. Whether he read the Bill before he used them or not I do not know. He distinctly used them. He said that there were many associations masquerading as trade unions and that there must be power to suppress. These are the very words he used. The Minister for Finance talks about translations. When he is translated I hope he will be expurgated, as he tried to expurgate others. They will not expurgate that. That is what the Minister for Industry and Commerce wanted. Do not let cravenness overcome the trade union representatives in the House too soon. There is something to be stood over; there is some danger. The man who drives away speeches, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who has not made a good example of himself, told us to-night that "badge" has gone from the Bill. It has not. I will make the statement without fear of contradiction that "badge" has not gone out of the Bill. "Badge" has not gone out of the definition clause; it has not gone out of Section 5; it has not, in effect, gone out of Section 4. With the repercussion of all these sections, one on the other, there is not the slightest doubt that if the Government want to get after a trade union they can get after it. Any Chief Superintendent of the Gárda Síochána can prohibit the wearing of trade union badges in his functional area. That is clear. It will be an offence under the section for a trade unionist to wear a badge. Notwithstanding the amendment accepted, notwithstanding the parrot cry of "withdraw," it will be an offence to wear a badge, and under Section 9 any member of the Gárda Síochána may enter any trade union premises and search.

A proclamation is required by Section 5.

Let me read the section about the proclamation:

The Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána in respect of the whole of Saorstát Eireann, and any Chief Superintendent of the Gárda Síochána in respect of his functional area, may by proclamation prohibit the wearing in Saorstát Eireann or in such functional area (as the case may be) of any particular uniform or particular badge specified in such proclamation....

That saves you! Is that the answer?

It does not support your argument.

It does. Are you willing to go to a trade union and say: "We are convinced that there is not a single Chief Superintendent of the Gárda Síochána in the country fool enough, anti-trade union enough, so much under the thumb of the Government that he would prohibit the wearing of a badge belonging to a trade union in any area?" Is that the defence? It that what the Deputies think is safeguarding the trade unions? Will they say that in any of those areas inside the functional area of a Chief Superintendent a search warrant may be issued and under the warrant premises may be raided and private homes may be raided? Is that safeguarding the trade union organisations? You need not go so far as Section 5. Section 4 gives the Executive Council power to declare any association a political Party and once that has happened anything that can happen under the Bill can happen to trade unions.

And the Minister for Industry and Commerce puts a little saucer of milk in front of Deputy Davin and Deputy Norton and says:

"It is not meant that we will ever want to suppress a trades union; we will not want to do that, all we can do is to prohibit the wearing of badges."

A certain member of the Broy Harriers who planted ammunition——

I think exception has already been taken to describing forces of the State as Broy Harriers. This is against the ruling of the Chair.

I am not describing the forces of the State as Broy Harriers. I said a certain member.

It has been ruled by the Chair that such an expression with regard to members of the State forces should not be used. That has been already stated.

A Deputy cannot refer to the Broy Harriers any more?

The Deputy must not misrepresent my statement under any circumstances.

I did not hear the ruling.

The Deputy must not misrepresent my statement.

It was because I had not heard the Chair's ruling.

I said that such an expression with regard to certain members of the State forces should not be used and that had been already stated. It had been already ruled that referring to certain sections of the Gárda Síochána as Broy Harriers is a disrespectful description.

I did not hear that ruling.

Then I will say that the planters of ammunition belonging to the State forces can be sent into the house of a trades unionist to plant ammunition.

The Deputy does not suggest that.

It has been done and the man was brought up in court and he was backed by the Attorney-General.

The Attorney-General

That statement is not true and I submit the Deputy is out of order.

What is untrue?

The Attorney-General

That statement is quite untrue.

The question of any member of the State forces does not arise under this Bill.

I respectfully suggest that any statement I make here is a statement that I can back up by the newspaper reports of the Military Tribunal and I repeat it. The Attorney-General backed the man whom the Military Tribunal found to have planted ammunition in the case of Commandant Cronin.

The Attorney-General

I challenge that statement as untrue. There was no finding that the ammunition was planted by the Guards. The Deputy should not make the statement unless he can substantiate it.

There is not a particle of untruth in it. The man planted ammunition and that was the case before the Military Tribunal. I can substantiate it from the newspaper reports of the case.

The position is that State forces are directed to do certain duties. We are not discussing here what they are to do. It does not fall under this Bill that they are to do certain things or not do them.

I want to point out to the House that trades unionists are not so completely protected as the Minister for Industry and Commerce would ask the House to believe and I wish to point out again that under Section 5 of the Bill trades unionists may be prevented from wearing any particular badge. Under another Section it is provided

if a member of the Gárda Síochána ... is of opinion that there is reasonable ground for supposing that there are, in any place or premises, uniforms or badges, the wearing of which is prohibited by or under this Act, he may issue an order in writing ... to any one or more members of the Gárda Síochána under his command and named therein to search such place or premises.

In that connection I put it as reasonably fair that there may happen to trades unionists what happened to Commandant Cronin—that they will find arms planted on them.

That is an allegation that should not be made by the Deputy.

The Attorney-General

In dealing with the Gárda Síochána I think the Deputy should really adduce some proof that such finding was made by the Military Tribunal.

I will allow the Attorney-General to elaborate that.

The Deputy has referred to State forces as persons who planted ammunition. He has repeated that and I submit that that is a much more serious offence against the Rules of Order than the previous offence.

It was unfortunately an offence against order in the country and it was committed by members of the Police Force.

Not one bit untrue.

Charges of this kind should not be made against State forces in this House. If members of the Police Force are guilty of offences and if such charges are to be made against them there is a place where these can be substantiated. Deputies should not make such charges unless they are prepared to substantiate them.

There has been a particular event and it was tried before the eyes of the people of this country who can read. I make the allegation that what I have said is perfectly correct and I will not withdraw an inch from that point. A particular charge was made before the Military Tribunal and the defence of that charge was that the ammunition was planted. That defence was accepted by the Military Tribunal.

The Attorney-General

No. There was no finding by the Military Tribunal that that ammunition was planted. The Deputy should not make such a statement unless he is prepared to substantiate it. It is a charge that should not be made in this House.

That is what I have endeavoured to prevent and I have asked the Deputy to substantiate the statement.

I will substantiate it by reference to the newspapers of the time.

The Attorney-General

Will the Deputy give the reference?

I put this up as a reasonable apprehension on the part of trades unionists who might have reasonable fears that ammunition may be planted on them and——

Do I take it that Deputy McGilligan withdraws the statement that certain members of the State forces planted ammunition?

No. I am not withdrawing it. I am prepared to substantiate it. I made that statement and I give as reference the daily Press at the time. I did not come into this House with copies of the daily papers of the time of the trial, but I can produce them. This thing is not challenged by anybody who knows the facts.

The Attorney-General

I challenged it several times.

I can substantiate it here by the reports in the daily Press.

The Attorney-General

The charge before the Military Tribunal was a charge against a man for having ammunition. There has been no finding by the Military Tribunal that any member of the State forces planted ammunition in that case. I now ask the Deputy to produce any finding by the Military Tribunal that any member of the State forces planted ammunition.

Until such time as it is substantiated, I will ask the Deputy to withdraw the statement.

I will withdraw solely on this ground—in deference to the Chair—but the fact is beyond all doubt.

A withdrawal cannot be taken like that. Deputy McGilligan is withdrawing the statement and at the same time making a further charge by saying the statement he is withdrawing is true.

Very good then, I withdraw unreservedly.

A bit of courage!

If Deputy Davin is going to talk about courage we will get into another dispute immediately.

A Deputy

When a withdrawal is made I do not think it is fair for another Deputy to comment on it.

Deputy Davin knows too much about it to have any sincerity in any comment he makes on it. Here is what Deputies are faced with:—The badge has not gone out of the Bill. If there was any sincerity in the Minister's statement that the badge was not to be used for the purpose of doing down trades unionists, the word "badge" could be lifted out of the Bill altogether. Why has not that been done, and why does the Minister say it is necessary to have this power in regard to trades unions?

I did not say anything of the kind.

Did not the Minister say it was necessary to have this power in regard to trades unions? What power does the Minister want against trades unions? Why does he want against trade unions all the powers that at the moment he wants against the Blue Shirts? Is Deputy Norton willing to give him this power against trades unions? The Minister for Industry and Commerce claims that a subterfuge may be adopted and that the Blue Shirts may adopt a trades union, even though the amendment is limited to a trades union which was in existence on a certain date. Every power the Minister has against the Blue Shirts he might want against the trade unions.

That is not a power that is asked for. The Bill is confined to uniforms.

The Bill is not confined to uniforms.

The automatic operation of the Bill is confined to uniforms.

Automatics is an ugly word to use in that connection. Automatics go off. They will go off against the trade unions one of these days, but there is a sure shield in the amendment.

The workers of this country are very intelligent.

I am glad to be able to join in that compliment to the workers, but not in the compliment to some of their representatives. It is worth while considering why the Deputy put down the amendment about badges. He said that it was to prevent the wearing of such badges relating to trade unions being made an offence. He thinks he has got his point. That is either due to a lack of intelligence or else he has realised for some reason that the words were not sufficient. He wants by the amendment to get an association of persons defined in such a way that these associations could not include trade unions which were in existence on 23rd February, 1934. The Deputy withdrew that amendment. Why? Does he still see no danger in the operation of Section 5, no danger in the operation of Section 4, no apprehension, with regard to Section 9, and has he no possible apprehension under Section 11, which allows any member of the Gárda to seize a trades union badge worn in contravention of the Act. That is what Deputy Norton presents to the trades union associations.

Deputy McGilligan has made a lot of play about Section 5. In that connection he has referred particularly to the risk of search, but he has not disclosed to the House that there is nothing in the section about searching or anything about raiding for these badges. There is something about wearing them but, for the rest of Deputy McGilligan's speech, there was no foundation whatever in Section 5. It was merely dragged in in order to conceal the anxiety——

You can have your badge but not wear it.

——of the gentlemen on the benches opposite—to use trade unions as a last hope, as camouflage. In the course of the debate on the last amendment, Deputy MacDermot said that they wore blue shirts because they thought they would be an adventitious aid in making their peculiar virtues attractive. In that connection, if they want adventitious aid why not use rouge or lipstick or patchouli?

Because they have been anticipated by yourself.

Is it that they may create around their dying movement the glamour of trade unionism that they are now anxious that the words in the amendment should appear? It is quite true, of course, that they could quite easily convert themselves. Fine Gael, having undergone so many transformations, might easily reappear in public life as a trades union, say either as the Land and Labour League of Deputy Belton, the Farmers' and Ratepayers' League of the Centre Party, Cumann na nGaedheal, or the United Ireland Party. Why not form themselves into a trade union of discredited politicians? They could do so quite easily. I can see them remaining a political organisation if the words in the amendment were inserted, but remaining outside the scope of the Bill. They would then have around them the glamour not only of the Blue Shirt but also the glamour of a trades union.

Not white elephants.

Glamour is a word that has been used frequently in this debate. I think it used to be associated with the poets of the Celtic twilight. Now, we are having associated with politicians of the Cumann na nGaedheal eclipse, the glamour of trades unionism. Do these people think that a blue shirt, or any sort of shirt, will make the dead walk, or imagine they are going to get away in the guise of trades unions? Is that the reason Deputy Dillon, Deputy MacDermot or Deputy McGilligan and the rest were so concerned about the amendment—because they saw in it a way of escape? They have proved themselves quick-change artists. They are adepts in changing names. They can have as many aliases as they like. They have no difficulty there, as the name or the object does not matter to them. They are going to appeal to the most virtuous purposes, as Deputy MacDermot indicated, and to try to lend to it a little adventitious aid like a blue shirt or a set of trade union rules. Under it all, we know the real motive. The Labour Party knows that no organisation that the gentleman who made the speech in Kildare is associated with is going to be friendly to the cause of the workers in Ireland. I think they are well advised not to allow this amendment, which was put down when the word "badge" was in Section 2, and before amendment No. 18 was accepted by the Minister for Justice, to be misused.

Amendment No. 13 was moved by Deputy Norton, but he asked permission to withdraw it. I opposed the withdrawal but, in view of the persistent attitude of the members of the Labour Party and the Government, I do not want to persist in my attitude.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments Nos. 14, 15, 16 and 17 not moved.
Section 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
SECTION 2.
(1) It shall not be lawful for any person to wear any uniform or badge which is indicative of membership of, affiliation to, or support of a political Party or an association ancillary to a political Party.
(2) Every person who wears any uniform or badge in contravention of the foregoing sub-section of this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section.

I move amendment No. 18:—

In sub-section (1), line 26, and in sub-section (2), line 29, to delete in each line the words "or badge."

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 19 not moved.

I move amendment No. 20:—

In sub-section (1), line 27, after the word "Party" to insert the words "which aims at overthrowing or changing the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann by force of arms."

When this measure was first spoken of a certain amount of comment was made on the amount of arms that were in the country uncontrolled, and further comment was made upon the necessity of getting all the arms together. Even the pious hope was held in this House that eventually the people might gather together all these arms and erect them into a magnificent cross, something like what was done elsewhere. I hope if that day comes to be asked to write one or two epitaphs. I can suggest things about "wading through blood,""hands being clean," and things like that. I would like to get these arms collected. In an assembly that is facing me with so many warriors I hope to say something about it. I am against any political Party which feels unfit to convert any opposition in the country by argument, or by reason, but which has to have resort, failing reason, to arms. There is no use in the country for the man who feels that the only way he can get an argument into another man's head is by bludgeoning him or beating him into unconsciousness.

Or sacking him.

And giving him a pension.

Many a man your Party put out.

If the Deputy is going to broadcast any further, he should get a better spot and get an expurgator.

I told you to get one.

Atmospherics are bad to-night.

You used that for the first time about six years ago.

I want to ban the wearing of uniforms or badges to indicate membership of, affiliation to or support of a political Party which aims at overthrowing or changing the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann by force of arms. I think that we should all set out to prohibit the use of arms. We should all set out to establish that the only parties that will be given any countenance in this State are those who are going to operate by ordinary, democratic methods— deliberation, argument, persuasion, even, if necessary, by the rather heroic method of trial by error, which we are going through at the moment. If we are to reach sanity and sense in the end, one thing we should stop at and one thing that should be prohibited is the use of arms by anybody for the purpose of changing the Constitution of the country or trying to convert people's minds by terror. One of the Fianna Fáil posters which were scattered amongst us before the last election, asked "What is the alternative to Fianna Fáil?""The only alternative to Fianna Fáil," we were told in that poster is "Government by coerction." It was an alternative then; it was not identical. The poster went on to state as the alternative to Fianna Fáil Government,—"the renewal of the régime of the military courts, special prisons, widespread raids, the revival of the civil war atmosphere, which is so deadly to all progress.""Fianna Fáil," we were told, "gave you peace. Cumann na nGaedheal only gave you coercion." Now Fianna Fáil gives us the Blue Shirt Bill. That in one hand and this poster in the other.

All I seek is that if there is going to be coercion the coercion should be properly applied. I have in my hands a pamphlet which contains the governmental policy and constitution of Oglaigh na hEireann, as adopted at the general army convention held in March, 1933, and issued with a foreword dated January, 1934. This is, I suppose, the most up-to-date of these documents. I hope it is not an official secret. It is sold for a penny, not like the other "official-secret" document, for which twopence had to be paid. This document states that the army is to be known by a certain title, that membership is to be open to all Irishmen of particular ways of thought and so on. The objects include the establishment and upholding of the lawful Government in sole and absolute control, and the means by which Oglaigh na hEireann shall endeavour to achieve its objects include (1) by force of arms. Is that organisation with its open profession regarding the use of arms for a particular purpose going to be tolerated and this Bill left in a state in which trade union badges can be coercively abolished? Do Deputies want to have this Bill limited to useful purposes? Is there anybody who would not in his sane senses agree that the crying need of this country is to get rid of those people who are endeavouring by force of arms to do what they cannot do by persuasion?

These are all absorbed by the Blue Shirts now, according to the General.

That is a red herring.

Will there not be general agreement that, in this particular year of enlightenment, we should look to argument, to persuasion, to the effect of the clash of mind on mind, to speeches, to democracy and appeals to their reason and intelligence? That is the proper way to convert people to a change of the Constitution, if it has got to be changed, but one thing that everybody who believes in man as a reasoning creature and believes in appeal to the highest part of man should be against is the use of guns and this business of people professing to attain their objects by force of arms. Why not make a start with them? There is an organisation which flaunts itself before you. It is going to bring about certain changes by force of arms. It is not content with your puny methods of democracy—talking to people, arguing with them, trying to get a man to see your point of view, trying to get a man to believe that your course is the better one and is going to lead to a better situation for the country. They despise that. That is not their method. Their method of attaining their object is what they have stated in the forefront—force of arms. Why shirk the issue with them? Does the Government believe that it is a democratically elected Government? Does it believe that it holds power because the majority of the people, freely and of their own accord, have chosen it to be the Government? Do the members of the Government believe that in a new election their appeal to the people to reinstate them to power should be based on reason, telling them what good they did for the country, telling them what progress they had made, telling them what difficulties they encountered and how they got over them. Or do they think that appeal should be made to the people merely on grounds of terror—"if you do not do something, we will see that you, or the people belonging to you, will suffer; we will see that certain people will be shot; we are going to have guns produced from dumps and produced for use." Is that a position that anybody wants to have in the country? Is not that the biggest evil we could have and one which should be put down? Why has there not been a bigger approach made towards dealing with that evil than there has been? The Minister for Justice knows that there are guns in the country. The Attorney-General knows that there are guns in the country. Both of them had experience of a recent case in which guns were used to fire volleys over a grave. Those guns did not come from lawful custody and were not sent back to lawful custody? Were the men interrogated as to where the guns came from? Were the men interrogated as to where they had gone to?

I do not know what case the Deputy is referring to.

The Nyham case. There might have been other cases and somebody might consult them. The Minister for Justice is looking embarrassed. He might know of other cases. At any rate he knows of that case. Can anybody object to my amendment? Is it not a good and proper thing, in this democratically constituted House, to say that people ought not to be allowed to coerce other people in the country by force of arms? Or are other people so slow to admit their own deeds, or to face the things that might be said about them if they suddenly turned round and took that line? Are they not going even now to attempt a decent statement that they themselves should welcome the disappearance of armed forces other than the forces of the State? Will they go further and say, not merely that they would welcome such a statement but that they will take active steps to see that such forces shall disappear? Will they say that? Will they, even at this late moment, assert the power and majesty of the law so that the only armed organisation in the country shall be that which is under lawful control? or will they go on with the pretence of being a democratically elected assembly in this country.

We were told, in February, 1932, by the President of the Executive Council:

"During the ten years since the Treaty ... there had been put on the Statute Book of the Free State no less than six Public Safety Acts, three Firearms Acts, three Infringement of the Law Acts, four Jury Acts, one Treasonable Offences Act, one Protection of Community Act and the Perpetual Coercion Act recently passed, entitled The Constitution (Amendment) (No. 17) Act."

How many of these Acts have been withdrawn since the present Government came into office? How many of them have been actively withdrawn by any action on their part? Does that mean that the present Government find that they have to keep this list of Coercion Acts on the Statute Book and to add this proposed new Act to them so as not to limit themselves? I want this Act limited to the suppression of those who aim at the overthrow of the Constitution in this country by the force of arms. We used to hear about "Bloody Balfour" and about "Buckshot Forster." Are the Government bloodier than Balfour?

The last one was.

Are the present Government to have one more weapon in their hands? Are they fuller of buckshot than "Buckshot Forster?" The President also said:

"They did not believe that in this country they were so vicious minded that there was a large section of the people that had to be governed by Coercion Acts. That was the British attitude to the country. Was it to be their fate in this country that they were always to have Irish Governments like that?"

I re-echo these words. It was the British attitude to have coercion always here. What they wanted was plenty of Coercion Acts and any amount of enforcement of them in the country. The present Government are to-day presenting that point of view to the people. If their point was to oppose people who want to overthrow constitutional Government by force of arms, and if they want help against such people they will get it, but they have not shown themselves inclined to proceed against such people. Instead of that they are going out to suppress a political association because its members are wearing uniforms or badges. Is there any harm in the wearing of badges or is there any harm in the wearing of uniforms indicating membership of a political party if the aims of that party are proper? Is there nothing good in having aims like these? Are objects only to be achieved and are aims only to be achieved by force of arms? Would it not be a proper thing to attack the big danger first? When this Bill was introduced there were comments about foreign States and about what Belgium did, and what Sweden did, and what other countries had to do. In the end the Minister for Justice was forced to fall back upon what Britain had to do and Ministers followed up the discussion in regard to what are called private armies when this matter was discussed in the House of Lords. There you got a unanimity which you might expect in any democratic assembly. There should be, and was in fact, a junction of opinion by all parties upon this: that it was a good thing to have political parties in the open, indicating their points of views even by emblems and objects and devices of that kind; and that the only thing that was to be feared was that any section of the people, either small or large, should decide to found its policy, not upon argument and reason, but upon coercion by arms and by force.

If the President is looking for a precedent that private armies are disliked he has that example to follow. Let him follow the words that were used there which, as the discussion shows, were words that were meant. The only point that was queried about the particular organisation on the other side was whether or not it had armoured cars, as alleged against it. And even those who said that they themselves would not appear in a political uniform or wear a badge, indicating a political association, also said that they could see no harm or danger except in the case of a political organisation which became confounded with one that relied upon arms, or force of arms. They all agreed that once force was shown as the background of any association it ought to be put down by the forces under the control of the State. I want associations like that to be declared in this House to be unlawful associations. I want Ministers to forget their past and to say that this armed association shall have no place in Ireland at this moment. And I want them not merely to say that but to include that association if they can be brought to do so in this measure. No matter what they are going to do against an association of a harmless type, with badges and devices indicating the bearing of that political association, let them show that they are certainly going to use the full force of any power the law, the police or the military affords them against those who set out to overthrow the Constitution of the country by force of arms.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. till to-morrow Wednesday at 3 p.m.
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