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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Apr 1935

Vol. 55 No. 14

Estimates for Public Services. - Vote 49—Science and Art.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £29,898 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na bhFundúireachtaí Eolaíochta agus Ealadhan agus Ildeontaistí-i-gCabhair, etc.

That a sum not exceeding £29,898 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Institutions of Science and Art and sundry Grants-in-Aid, etc.

I regret that I have to intervene here for a few moments. I made the effort on a previous Estimate and was ruled out of order. I presume that I am in order on this Estimate. I desire that the Government should give a sum in aid of the purchase of pictures for the Municipal Gallery of Modern Art here in the city.

The Dublin Municipal Gallery of Modern Art does not come within the ambit of this Vote.

Mr. Kelly

I was told the same thing, Sir, by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle two or three hours ago.

If the Deputy can show me an item in the Estimate relating to the Dublin Municipal Gallery I shall certainly allow him to discuss it.

Mr. Kelly

Certainly the Dublin Municipal Gallery does not come within the Estimate, but I want to get it in. I would have taken only five minutes in my effort——

The Deputy may limit himself to five minutes, but other Deputies might take half an hour in replying to him.

Mr. Kelly

They generally do.

The Deputy may not debate the Dublin Municipal Gallery on this Vote.

Mr. Kelly

Very well, Sir. We will only have to look elsewhere.

As Deputy Kelly cannot raise the Municipal School of Art, perhaps I might be permitted to raise the School of Art, which does appear on the Estimate.

Mr. Kelly

If you are, it is hard luck on me.

In the course of the observations which I am about to make I am sure, if Deputy Kelly will exercise his ingenuity, he will find that if he speaks to the School of Art, which is within the Estimate, he will be able to bring in the Dublin Municipal Gallery.

Mr. Kelly

You are making a mistake. I am a plain Gael.

The item here about the School of Art is one about which I wish to make a few observations. The total amount which is proposed to be expended upon this School of Art is about £2,700 odd. As far as I can see in the Estimates, that is the only amount—with the possible exception of an item of £338—which is being devoted out of public funds for the development of art in this country. I would respectfully submit to this House that that is an entirely inadequate provision to make out of public funds. This is a service which should receive very much more adequate attention from any Government, whatever the political affiliations may be in this House. I notice a very characteristic footnote to the portion of this sub-head which deals with the School of Art. The headmaster receives a certain salary. It is not a very princely salary for the services which he gives, and which he would be expected to give, but whether it is a princely salary or not there is a footnote which sounds what we may readily conceive to be a note of warning from the Department of Finance, that nobody else is going to get the same salary, because the salary is stated to be personal to the holder. In other words, the next headmaster will get considerably less than the comparatively small salary which appears there at that item.

Footnote (h) deals with teachers and lecturers, and there is a very comprehensive statement that those posts are subject to review. I do not know how many teachers and lecturers there are in the School of Art, but apparently the aggregate salary for the whole lot is £1,000. There is an item for a teacher of design and ornament, who gets the princely salary of £75, rising by £7 10s. to £150. I think a mere recital of those things ought to be sufficient to bring home to Deputies the fact that an entirely inadequate arrangement has been made for the teaching of art and design in this country. The policy of the Ministry is to foster industry. It may be, and I hope it will be, that some sort of industries will ultimately be set up in this country. They may not be as numerous or as important as those which exist in the imagination of the Ministry, but at any rate some industries must—and we all hope will— be set up here. One of the most important matters which should be considered in this connection is the application of art to industry in this country, and the relevance of design in its application to industry. The biggest industrial firms in England pay huge salaries to the best artists they can lay their hands on for designing the goods which they hope to put on the markets of the world. Some of the best artists are employed by industrial concerns at very big salaries, and their sole duty is to design their goods. I submit that provision ought to be made in this or in some other Estimate for such an institution as the School of Art to deal with and make provision for the teaching of art, in particular reference to the application of art to industry, and the teaching of design. It is certainly a poor commentary on the provision which is being made in that connection that the only salary provided for a teacher of design in the only School of Art that exists in this country is the salary of £75 a year. This is a matter, Sir, on which I personally feel very deeply. It is a matter which I think could be developed greatly to the benefit of this country.

He has £150—not £75.

It is a matter which, as this country increases in industrial prosperity, will require some provision to be made by the State. We have talented people here in this country, and they really have no opportunity of developing their talents. The only provision from public funds for enabling talented students to get a proper education in art is, as far as I can find out, a sum of £338. I recently heard of a young boy, the son of a working man, who displayed considerable talent in the direction of drawing and design. He was engaged in manual labour. Somebody happened to see his drawings, and out of the personal bounty of that particular individual this boy has got a chance. There is no provision, as far as I can see, for giving scholarships or making provision for talented young people who do not possess the money to get proper instruction and education in art and design. I think that this matter ought to receive the attention of the Ministry. I submit, Sir, that it is ridiculous that out of the enormous sums of money which are voted here the only sum which it is proposed to spend in connection with art is the sum of £2,700. Take the case of a person who has a talent for painting and design, who has had his talent developed by some sort of training in the School of Art, and who shows promise. Where is the market for his talent when he has completed his artistic education in this country? He has to go abroad to get further education. Assuming that he gets that education, and becomes a man of considerable fame, what use is he going to make of his talents and his artistic capacity? He is going to sell them for the benefit not of this country, or for developing rural industries in this country, but for the benefit of the British market. I think that we have people in this country whose talents could be made useful. Their infantile steps along the road of Art can be directed through the School of Art that exists here. But there ought to be some provision that when they have finished the education that can be provided within the capacity of the Dublin School of Art there ought to be some provision for enabling them to go abroad to study their Art and enable them to get experience in other countries. Then there should be some attraction for them to come back here to this country and to apply their capacity and artistic abilities into artistic channels or to industry in their own country.

The Estimate this year has an item for an English-Irish dictionary. From that I take it that the work on this dictionary is drawing to completion if not completed. I would like to ask the Minister when he anticipates this dictionary will be published, and at what price he expects to publish it? Item B (7) provides for increased payments for scholarships for the encouragement of Gaeltacht students. I would like the Minister to say from what particular districts the scholarship holders last year came, and what class of studies they are now pursuing, and where these are being pursued? I would like also to ask the Minister when are we going to see the Irish county histories for which grants were made last year, and in the case of grants for the production of Irish plays to what particular societies the grants provided here are to be paid?

In regard to the county histories, the first volume, the history of the County Roscommon, has been sent in to us, and we are at present considering the translation of that volume into Irish. I hope that the second volume will be available in the summer —about the month of June. With regard to the question of scholarships for Gaeltacht students, the position up to the present has been that the scheme was insufficiently developed and had not reached the stage where there was a sufficient number of really eligible and proper candidates or a sufficient choice of faculties to enable us to say that the original intention of the scheme which was an endeavour to train native Irish speakers in the public professions, was being achieved. Latin is now being introduced into the preparatory colleges, and the students from these university scholarship examinations. We have a certain number of candidates also from the colleges and schools in the Irish-speaking counties. All these scholarship holders have to do a course in Galway University unless it can be shown that the particular course is not available in Galway but is available in another college or university. I cannot tell the Deputy at the moment but I can write to him, if that will satisfy him, giving him the particulars of the number of candidates. The women candidates generally confine themselves to the commerce or arts faculties. The boy students exhibit some desire to avail of medicine or dentistry. But we have not the scheme sufficiently long in operation to say that we are getting the best possible results from it. We hope with the increased number of candidates and the wider ability of these candidates that there will be much more success arising from this scheme in the future.

With regard to Deputy Costello's points it might be assumed that the only institution in the Free State which gave instruction in Art was the Dublin Metropolitan School of Art. There are schools of Art in the County Boroughs of Limerick, Cork and Waterford, and I think these three institutions are very successful. A certain number of scholarships are given in the Dublin Metropolitan School of Art. It was confined, I think, somewhat to Fine Art up to the present. While the facilities might not be as great as we would like, I do not think that the provision made in that school has been insufficient for the demand made on it. I think it has been sufficient.

There is also instruction given in art in the Dublin Technical Schools and in some of the larger technical schools throughout the country such as Galway, and I think some instruction is given in the secondary schools. The headmaster of the school gets £700 a year; the second master gets £400 a year; the teacher of modelling gets £250 a year and the teacher of design and ornaments £150 a year. The other teacher are generally part-time teachers who, I think, are not dependent on their teaching for a livelihood. They are working in an artistic capacity in some other business. These get up to £1,000 a year between them so that the provision, though it may look small, is adequate. I quite realise the force of the Deputy's arguments that we should make further provision, particularly for the development of what might be called commercial art and the awakening of an interest amongst our industrialists in matters of art. Last year we formed a committee which we described as a Standing School Committee to deal with the organisation and development of the Metropolitan School of Art and its functions. This committee, as the Deputy will see from my speech, deals with these matters, but it is not proposed to confine the functions of the committee to an investigation of questions affecting the Metropolitan School of Art only. They have certainly terms of reference dealing mainly with the School of Art but not confined solely to it.

Reference No. 3 of the Terms of Reference sets out: "To consider the advisability of instituting a school diploma and, if considered advisable, to suggest the conditions under which such diploma should be granted." As the Deputy knows, most of the teachers up to the present got their diplomas in one of the London schools. Paragraph (5) of the Terms of Reference reads: "To make recommendations from time to time as may be necessary for the better co-ordination of the instruction given at the school with the instruction in art subjects in the secondary and technical schools in the City of Dublin and adjoining districts." Then in paragraph (6) they are: "To advise as to the periodic conduct at the school of courses of instruction for secondary and technical school teachers and the nature and scope of such courses." Paragraph (7) says: "To make recommendations regarding the co-ordination of the work of the school with that of the schools of art in the county boroughs of Cork, Limerick and Waterford." Also to deal with the general programme of the work of the schools and "generally to advise upon any question affecting the schools which may be referred to the committee by the Department from time to time."

The idea underlying the formation of this Committee was that it would be an Advisory Committee to the Department of Education and that as the first step they should investigate the conditions of the Metropolitan School of Art and say how that institution might be extended profitably. I understand that the Committee have been working since before Christmas on this matter. They are all men who have had wide experience in artistic matters, and I hope that in the near future we shall have a report from them setting out a scheme of development for the Metropolitan School of Art. Should the scheme, as it probably will, involve a question of additional finance, and if the Minister for Finance is agreeable to go ahead with it, and if the Executive Council consider the scheme suitable, I shall then be in a position to come to the Dáil and go more fully into the question of the organisation of the school. Later on, when the School is better organised and developed, the question of art education generally in the country will follow, but the first thing to be done is to try to extend the existing school in Dublin.

The Minister says that the history of County Roscommon has now been received and that consideration has been given to translating it into Irish. Are we to take it that that is being done?

Into Irish alone?

I also asked the Minister when the English-Irish Dictionary would be issued. Apart from that, there is one other point I should like to mention. I understand that the National Library has issued an appeal to persons in possession of historic documents of any kind, asking them to submit them to the National Library either by way of present or for the purpose of copying them. Does the Minister propose to take any steps to make that appeal more widely known throughout the country so that such documents may be made available for the use of the Library in either of the ways suggested?

I understand that the English-Irish Dictionary will be ready in May. I cannot say what the price will be, as I do not think a decision has yet been reached on the matter. However, I shall let the Deputy know what the position is. With regard to the matter of the National Library, the ideal position would be to have an independent body, such as the Historical Manuscripts Commission, or the Folklore Commission, deal with that matter. The National Library has kindly consented to take any copies of such documents given to them, but they are not prepared to take the responsibility of certifying that these documents are genuine, or of going out to collect them. However, I hope that by voluntary work most of the available documents, since the inception of Sinn Féin, will find a place there eventually.

In connection with what the Minister has said with regard to county histories in Irish, I should like to know, if it is the desire to publish these county histories in Irish, whether or not it is possible to appoint somebody to write them who is capable of writing in Irish.

That matter has been decided.

Vote put and agreed to.
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