It is proposed to take the Order of Business as on the Order Paper, Nos. 4 and 5; public business to be interrupted at 9 p.m. to take No. 3—the motion standing in the names of Deputies Belton and Kent. The Dáil will meet to-morrow, Friday, at 10.30 a.m.
Order of Business.
May I ask on what principle is the Vice-President giving time for No. 3? The Dáil arrived at a decision on this subject nearly a fortnight ago, and it is more reminiscent of the proceedings of a county council than those of the chief legislative assembly of the country that we should be asked to rescind what we have done such a short time ago.
I suggest that the Deputy should read Bills before he votes for them. If he reads the Bill concerned, he will find that that Bill enabled the Executive Council to make certain Orders, which Orders were to be placed on the Table of this House, and, if an annulling motion was carried by this House within 21 working days of the Dáil, the Order concerned went by the board. Accordingly, I would advise the Deputy in future, before voting for Bills here, to read them and try to understand them.
What Deputy Belton says about the Order is correct. An Order was made under the powers given in the Act passed here the other day in the House. That Order was laid on the Table of the House and it can be raised here as a subject for discussion within 21 days.
Do I understand, Sir, that this particular Order will be raised in Private Members' time to-night?
In Government time.
In public time?
Yes, at 9 o'clock.
And we have unlimited time to discuss it?
Unlimited up to 10.30.
That would be an hour and a half.
Am I to understand from the Vice-President that it must be disposed of at 10.30?
Yes.
I wish to point out to the House that the Standing Orders, as framed, make no provision for such motions as this, proposing the annulment of a Statutory Order. Under Standing Order No. 23, the motion would naturally come up in private Deputies' time on Wednesday or Friday. When a similar case arose some years ago, the Ceann Comhairle adverted to the fact that, if such a motion were to take its place at the end of private Deputies' motions, it might not be reached within the effective period of 21 sitting days. Consequently, the matter was referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, and, at a meeting of that Committee, held on the 2nd May, 1929, the Ceann Comhairle being in the Chair, it was suggested and agreed that the following arrangement be given a trial: That such motions be given precedence over other private Deputies' motions in private Deputies' time, the day to be selected by the Ceann Comhhairle, keeping in view the statutory period prescribed; and that the time given should be one and a half hours. In pursuance of that minute, two such motions have been considered in private Deputies' time and concluded in an hour and a half. The object of this motion is, presumably, that the House may reach a decision on the statutory Order. The question of sanctions may not be reopened, as the Oireachtas has passed the Bill for sanctions. The only matter for discussion is this particular Order now made.
Taking that arrangement made by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges as my guide, which I am not only entitled but to an extent bound to do until the Committee on Procedure and Privileges come to some other arrangement, I consider that the House should, before 10.30 to-night, be given the opportunity of deciding on that question. The question will accordingly be put before 10.30. I would point out to the Deputy moving in this matter that on this occasion the Government has given time, but if the motion were then to flow over into private Deputies' time, I doubt whether I would be justified, in view of the arrangement arrived at by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, in giving such motion precedence for consideration in private Deputies' time. No decision might then be reached within the effective period. I will therefore put the question before 10.30 to-night.
May I point out, with respect, that that amounts to saying, that, in the event of an attempt being made to debate beyond 10.30, you will accept a motion for closure from the Government if such a motion is tendered to you?
I think the Chair would be justified in putting the motion in view of all the circumstances. The arrangement was come to in good faith by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, but if it be found necessary to move for the closure, the Chair would certainly accept it.
I submit, Sir, that there is nothing in the Standing Orders which provides that a debate automatically comes to a conclusion at a certain hour, and that the only method of concluding is when the Chair accepts a motion for its closure. I would like the Chair to preserve that form of procedure and that the Chair should announce its determination to adhere to the form by saying that, if the debate goes beyond that hour, the Chair would accept such a motion.
If, Sir, as you have stated, the principle of sanctions may not be challenged, from what point of view can the advisability of the Order be discussed at all?
It is not for the Chair to decide what the Deputy may discuss, but what he may not discuss.
Well, I am sure the Chair will appreciate that it seems to me that, if there is to be any intelligent discussion at all, we must go back on the very question we decided a fortnight ago.
The House may not reopen the debate on sanctions. It will be limited to discussing this particular Order, its contents and what the Deputy thinks within reason might flow from that Order.
I am delighted to draw the conclusion from that that there will be no discussion.
On the point raised by Deputy Dillon, although the Chair feels that the House would be with it in carrying out the arrangement reached by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, I agree to the suggestion made.
In your ruling, Sir, you used the words "the Order now made" and I take it you refer to the Obligations of Membership Order, 1935. You then said that on that, if there is to be any discussion, the question of sanctions cannot be discussed.
No, they cannot be discussed.
I want to ask for some guidance from the Chair. Does not the Order now made, again to quote your own words, involve the whole question of sanctions?
No. Debate is limited to the Statutory Order made by the Executive Council in pursuance of powers given by the Oireachtas. Deputies may show why that Order does or does not meet with their approval, and state reasons.
There is one important point which arises from the decision. I take it that what is intended is that there should be a discussion on this Order from 9 o'clock until 10.30 to-night. Some Deputies might like to participate in the discussion. Suppose Deputy Belton travelled from 9 o'clock until 10.25——
The Chair feels confident that the Deputy will not monopolise the time.
——and manages to keep in order during that period, am I to understand that everybody else is to be precluded from discussing the matter?
As on the previous occasion, the Labour Party will not be present.
The Chair cannot decide the length of speeches, but I feel assured that the Deputy has no intention of occupying the hour and a half allotted to the motion.
Am I to understand that you are governed by the procedure of this House in your ruling that a motion of this nature is entitled only to an hour and a half for its discussion here?
I am guided by the decision come to dispassionately on that point.
In those circumstances, we must accept that ruling. We thought that the Government was limiting the time. I see now that they are not, but that they, too, are governed by the rules of procedure. With regard to the point raised by Deputy Dillon as to anybody transgressing the spirit of that ruling and wanting to carry the discussion over to another time, and come to no definite decision, a Deputy would be in order in moving the closure.
The Government.
The Government is very adept at moving the closure when they want to and they do not require to be prompted from any side of the House. I can assure the Deputy and the Chair that we who are moving this motion have as much respect for the procedure of this House as anybody else, and the Chair will not find itself in any difficulty so far as we are concerned.
I should like to ask, in view of the limitation of time, whether there is an arrangement that the President will get at least 20 or 25 minutes to deal with this matter. It is of importance by reason of the fact that, since the Bill was passed here, there seems to have been on the part of the principal members of the League of Nations a lot more talk and discussion with and about Italy than there was before the sanctions were asked for, and it is suggested in a certain number of quarters that there is a considerable amount of wobbling on the part of the League of Nations since regarding the policy of sanctions. The House would, therefore, wish to hear the President at some reasonable length on the general question, and I should like to know if the President proposes to intervene in this debate, and, if so, for what length of time and at what time.
The Chair knows of no such arrangement, but presumably the President or some Minister will be allowed at least 20 minutes in which to reply.
If the President spoke on the lines suggested by Deputy Mulcahy, surely he would be entirely out of order?
That is a matter for the Chair.
Am I to take it that some Deputies, in addition to the Deputy moving the motion and the President, will have an opportunity of participating in the discussion?
The Chair has no control over the length of speeches.
I agree that you cannot, but I think you ought to protect us against Deputy Belton making a lengthy speech.
The Deputy might accept the assurance given by Deputy Belton, which the Chair accepts.
The reason I asked you to reserve your discretion to accept a motion for the closure when you thought right, Sir, was to prevent such an altercation as is taking place between Deputy Norton and Deputy Belton. You must reserve discretion in that respect or no section of the House will be satisfied.
The Chair will hear no more on the matter.
I suggest that somebody be asked to pronounce the words in sub-section (2) of category 5 and keep the thing moving for some time.