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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Jun 1939

Vol. 76 No. 7

Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £9,459 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Roinn an Taoisigh (Uimh. 16 de 1924; Uimh. 40 de 1937; agus Uimh. 38 de 1938).

That a sum not exceeding £9,459 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1940, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach (No. 16 of 1924; No. 40 of 1937; and No. 38 of 1938).

There is a motion to refer back in the name of Deputy Davin.

Is the Taoiseach not prepared to say anything in defence of his own Estimate?

There is a motion to refer back.

The Deputy can be certain that the Taoiseach will say plenty so long as he gets the last word.

It is a very good thing to have the last word.

In view of this rather unusual kind of procedure I beg to move the motion standing in my name, namely, that the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach be referred back for reconsideration. In the first place, I want to compliment the Taoiseach on his decision to cancel, or postpone, his tour in America. For one thing it enables him to come before the House to defend the Estimate for his own Department, a thing that he could not have done if he had gone on the tour. Since the last general election— I do not know whether it is considered action on his part or not—the Taoiseach has appeared very seldom in the House. He does not appear here except when he is obliged to do so to answer questions addressed to him in his capacity as Taoiseach or as Minister for External Affairs. I am glad, therefore, and I am sure my feelings are shared by other members, that the Taoiseach will, on this occasion, be available to defend not only the activities of his own Department but the policy of the Ministry as a whole.

The King of England can, if he thinks fit, tour America or other world countries without any bad effect upon the Government in his own country or on the Dominions over which he presides. He can, for instance, leave England, leaving a Prime Minister and a Cabinet behind him who have a clearcut policy which has been put before the people, which is understandable to the people, and which has been ratified by Parliament. That Government is prepared to carry on while the King is away. The same position does not obtain in the case of the Taoiseach, especially if he proposes to leave the country for a lengthy tour in another country. The Taoiseach, when he leaves this country, as far as I can see, leaves a body of men behind him who will merely mark time while he is away, and will wait until he comes back to take orders from him in connection with any serious matters that may have arisen during his absence.

Now, in regard to the proposed tour, I would like, first of all, to ascertain from the Taoiseach whether the tour has been definitely cancelled or merely postponed. In any case, I think I am entitled to ask the Taoiseach to give the House and the country information and justification as to why, when the tour was originally proposed, it was decided to bring with him such a large army of highly-paid civil servants. I take it that the tour was not intended to serve a purely Party political purpose, and that, therefore, it was undertaken in the national interest. I would like to hear the real reason and objective for engaging on such a lengthy tour. I would like to hear from the Taoiseach why, for instance, he proposed, as he did originaly, to take with him the Deputy Director of Broadcasting. Surely, the Deputy Director of Broadcasting here was not going to be allowed to use the broadcasting machinery of America to throw out over the wires there whatever speeches might be made on this tour.

I would also like to hear the reason why it was intended, as I believe it was originally, to bring on that tour the head of the Information Bureau attached to the Taoiseach's Department. I have personally advocated in this House as well as in another place —and all the members of our Party have supported the idea—the establishment of an information bureau. It is not to be taken that my query in regard to this particular matter is put up because we are opposed to the establishment of an Information Bureau attached to the Government— in this case attached to the Department of the Taoiseach. I should like to get from the Taoiseach some typical cases where this Information Bureau has served the national interests since it was established and attached to his Department. Has this Information Bureau, or the head of the Information Bureau, been put there merely for the purpose of collecting and circulating information, or has he been put there for the purpose of suppressing the circulation of useful information? If he has been put there for the purpose of collecting information for the guidance of the Government, of the Taoiseach and of his Ministry, then we should get some indications of cases where work of that kind has been done. It is possible that we may have been reading something from this particular Department in some newspaper under a title which we could not identify. I do not know. At any rate, I certainly have not seen any great use made of this particular service, which ought to be a useful service from the national point of view.

The policy of the Government, as the Taoiseach has explained here and elsewhere quite recently, is to work for the abolition of Partition. Has he ever asked the head of the Information Bureau to get and give him information disclosing the extent to which the taxpayers of Great Britain have to maintain an army of occupation in the Six Counties, and to subsidise the various public services in the Six Counties? If he has been given information by the head of the Information Bureau, then I say he should give it to every Deputy of this House and to the people of the country, who are prepared to back the Government in endeavouring to get rid of Partition as soon as possible. If, for instance, information of that kind were circulated to the British people—apart from the value of its circulation to the Irish in America, or to the American people or the people of the world as a whole —it would force the British taxpayers to come to their senses, and to come up against the question as to whether the game is worth the candle. Has the head of this Information Bureau ever been asked to supply the Taoiseach or the Government with information showing the comparative benefits that are given by the Government now carrying on in the Six Counties to persons who are unable to find work, to the aged poor, or to widows and orphans, or to supply information concerning the cost of living there as against here? It would be a very useful thing for the Government if such information were asked for and given. If it has been asked for and given, I say that we, as Deputies of this House, are entitled to that information.

The Information Bureau attached to the Department of the Taoiseach is costing the taxpayers of this country, according to the Estimate which I have before me, the sum of £1,531 and bonus. On many occasions here in this House, and in correspondence also, I have attacked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance for the failure of his Department to provide miserably mean, small sums for the carrying out of relief works in my constituency, and I have always got the answer: "The money is not available. Where is the money to be found?" I am sure that every Deputy in this House who takes an interest in the affairs of his constituency has had the same experience. If we have to find £1,531 and bonus for a Department of this kind —which might be made a useful Department—it should serve some useful purpose. As far as I am concerned, and I am speaking for this Party here, I say that up to the present that Department has not shown any evidence that it is serving any useful national purpose. If there is a case to be made for its continuance, let the Taoiseach make it in his reply. Let him defend the existence and the continuance, as well as the cost, of this particular section of his Department.

In connection with the agitation for the abolition of Partition, could not this Department be asked to supply not alone the Taoiseach but Deputies of this House with information concerning the victimisation of the Nationalist minority in the North by the six-County Government? Many statements have been made on this subject on public platforms in the Six Counties and in this State, statements which some people say cannot be backed by facts, but I am sure the head of the Information Bureau—who is a very competent man; he is a very highly qualified journalist—could, if he is given the permission or the order, get information of that kind and circulate it to the different bodies which are standing for the abolition of Partition, as well as for the purpose of trying to secure for our Nationalist fellow-countrymen in the North a fairer living than they are apparently getting there at the present time. We should like to have information of that kind. The Taoiseach and his Ministry and those who sit behind him here in this House are not alone in their endeavours to remove Partition. Every Deputy sent into this House has been sent here with a mission to help whoever wants to remove Partition. I listened to the Taoiseach on a recent occasion in College Green when he spoke as if no Deputy and no Party in this House, except the Fianna Fáil Party, was in favour of doing away with Partition. We know that he is in favour of doing away with Partition, but we are not quite sure as to the method by which he has decided to achieve that very desirable purpose. Is Partition going to be removed by sending up the Minister for Defence with his Army of 30,000 to fight those who occupy the Six Counties against the will of the majority of the people of this country? I dare say the Taoiseach will answer, "No." Is he going to abolish Partition by applying the method of economic pressure? I dare say the Taoiseach or his Government is not in favour of the activities of those who are carrying on another kind of operation in another country at the present time. At any rate, we are entitled to know—especially when the Taoiseach proposes to go on a tour to America for the purpose of dealing with this particular question—what is the policy which the Government has adopted for the purpose of removing Partition. Whatever it is, at any rate he will get the support of every member sitting on these benches in his endeavour to wipe out this unnatural boundary within the country. If we had information of the kind I have suggested supplied to us through the head of this Information Bureau it would help those who are willing to go on platforms for this purpose to make a better case than is being made at present for the abolition of the Border.

In regard to the cost of living in the Six Counties as against the Twenty-Six Counties, the figures are very interesting to those who are concerned in matters of this kind. Within the last few days, I have taken the trouble to look up authentic Government publications and documents of an international character which contain figures dealing with the cost of living here as compared with the Six Counties. They showed that the cost of bread here is 24 per cent. higher than in the Six Counties. Those who have to live by bread are naturally not going to go out of their way to help to wipe out Partition when that item of domestic necessity is against them.

Is it only now the Deputy found that out?

The cost of flour, about which Deputy Dillon knows more than I do, is 21 per cent. more in this State than in the Six Counties. There may be some justification given in cases of that kind for an increased cost here as against the cost in the Six Counties because we are making most of our own flour here, or a very high percentage of it, and that may explain it to some extent, but when one comes to the cost of rice——

Is this in order?

——which is a commodity consumed by very poor people, I find that the cost here in the Twenty-Six Counties is 67 per cent. higher than in the Six Counties.

On the Vote for the Taoiseach's Department, particularly when there is a motion to refer back, matters of general policy for which the Government as a whole is responsible, and not matters of detail which might have been and in fact were raised on the various Estimates, should be discussed. The price of bread or rice is too detailed a matter to dwell on in connection with whatever question of policy the Deputy desires to discuss.

If the Deputy had not been so irritated by the cost of commodities which he probably does not consume, I would have come to the point I want to make. I could give him the comparative cost of commodities which he probably does consume, and he would probably take a different view, and would not draw your attention, Sir, to the fact that I was doubtfully out of order on the matter. However, the point I want to make with regard to the prices which I have given is that members of this Party, including myself, have in this House on the Estimate for the Minister for Industry and Commerce protested against his failure to take the necessary steps to regulate the cost of living within reasonable limits. The Taoiseach is responsible for his appointment as Minister for Industry and Commerce, and I am raising now, as a matter of public policy, the excessive cost of living in this State, because, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, he is not doing his duty according to our view.

Deputy Moore does not want me to read down the list, which might be very annoying to him. At any rate, I hope the Taoiseach understands the point I am making. The excessive cost of living is the cause of a considerable amount of agitation in this country at the moment. Demands have been submitted to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and to the Government as a whole, that steps should be taken to deal with the excessive profits of the flour millers and the bacon curers, and nothing has been done up to the present. I hope the Taoiseach, in his reply, will defend the inaction, if he can defend it, of his Minister for Industry and Commerce in matters of this kind, or indicate, on the other hand, if action is likely to be taken to limit in some way the excessive profits which the flour millers, the bacon curers, and other people of that kind are making at the expense of the community as a whole.

There is another matter of policy to which the Taoiseach has been referring in recent speeches outside this House. I have no reason whatever to doubt his sincerity on this matter, but his sincerity on the question of the extent to which Irish should be a subject for advancement in the Civil Service is a matter that can be tested by figures and facts. On a recent occasion we had a discussion in this House as to why certain persons looking for certain public positions should have a competent knowledge of Irish and be capable of conducting the business of this House and the other House of the Oireachtas in the Irish language. That can be taken, I admit, as an indication of the viewpoint of the Government on the matter, although their action in regard to one certain proposal is a very doubtful one. I understand that one man who was nominated for the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle of this House had a knowledge of Irish.

That matter may not be reopened.

In support of the point of view I am expressing I should like the Taoiseach when replying to give us a list of the heads of Government Departments appointed by this Government since they came into office and the number of such persons who are capable of conducting the business of their Departments in the Irish language.

That is a question for the Minister for Finance, and could have been raised on his Vote.

If the Minister will not do his duty in this matter——

The Deputy referred to the Taoiseach as being responsible for the various Ministers. That does not entitle the Deputy to go through the activities and the administration of the various Departments. He has asked questions which should have been put, and many of which were put, in the debates on the Estimates. This is not an occasion for a resumption of the debates on the Estimates.

I do not propose to do any such thing and I would not attempt, to do it, particularly in view of your ruling. But we are entitled, as Deputies with a responsibility to the people, to have evidence from the Taoiseach, who is the head of the Government, as to the extent to which the policy of the Government in regard to Irish has been brought into line with their public professions both here and elsewhere.

If the Deputy had been in earnest about that he would have put down a Parliamentary question and got an answer in the ordinary way.

The Minister for Finance knows that I put down a question which he refused to answer saying that it was not in the public interest to give the information that I sought in regard to matters of this kind.

That should have been raised on my Estimate.

I am referring to his reply to a question of mine with regard to the Irish Sugar Manufacturing Company. We were told in this House some time ago by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is quite capable of making a very persuasive bluffing speech, that we were the representatives of the taxpayers in this country. But when I ask for information from the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce in regard to the operations, or the financial arrangements, of the Peat Development Board, the Irish Sugar Manufacturing Company and the Industrial Alcohol Company I am told that it is not in the public interest to give the information which any representative of the taxpayers would get at an ordinary meeting of the shareholders of a tontine society, much less a meeting of the shareholders of the State. As a matter of fact, I might say for the information of the Taoiseach, if he does not know it, that similar information to that which I asked for quite recently—not for any political purpose, as can be well understood—was given to Deputy Dillon in 1936, while information of the same kind was refused to me by no less a person than the eloquent Minister for Finance quite recently. I say that a Minister for Finance and a Minister for Industry and Commerce who are capable of conducting themselves like that are not fit to occupy their position, and the Taoiseach is bound to answer for their activities in these matters on this Vote.

The Minister for Finance drew that from me.

The principal reason why I am moving that this Vote should be referred back is because I am fully satisfied, and the members of this Party are satisfied, that this Government will never carry out the policy which they propose to carry out, so far as one can understand it, unless the existing policy of our banking institutions is completely changed. Does the Taoiseach, as the Head of a Government elected in the most democratic way by the people of the country, believe that he can solve the problem of unemployment within the existing banking system? He said on one occasion that if he could not solve the problem within the system he would go outside the system. I am taking advantage of his Estimate to ask him whether, after an experience of seven years, he can now make up his mind whether he can do what he promised to do within the existing banking system. Almost all the wealth of this country comes from arable land, and the land, for reasons unknown to me, is worthless as security for a loan to many of the so-called bankers at the present time. Does the Taoiseach know the value of the arable land of this State in millions? Does he know that it is not worth a brass farthing to any bank as security for a loan? How then can the Minister for Agriculture or other Ministers expect farmers to work harder and to produce more if they cannot get working capital or credit facilities to enable them to do so? That is the problem this Government must face up to after their seven years of office. A Banking Commission was set up in 1934, and it sat for four years, and made a number of reports during that time.

The Minister for Finance sat like a dummy when his Estimate, the Budget, and the Second Reading of the Finance Bill were before the House, when I put questions to him as to whether the Government had made up its mind as to what it was going to do on the various matters that arise out of the Banking Commission's report. The Minister made no attempt to answer and, in view of his failure to give the House and the country an indication as to the future financial policy of the Government, it is the duty of the Taoiseach to try to do so. The land, which is the source of so much wealth, has not alone to produce food for the people, but the surplus that has to be exported to balance our economy with another country. The land is now, and will be, in the future, to greater extent the source from which the raw material will have to come for our new industries, but as security it is now worthless to the banking institutions, the moneylenders and the gombeen men. It is a terrible state of affairs, after having the power to elect a Government, of which the Taoiseach is the head, that some 40—not more than 50— people outside this House, who have no association with the Government, can dictate financial policy. It is time that state of affairs was brought to an end, and it is time that the Taoiseach and his Ministry, as well as the machined majority behind them, took their courage in their hands and studied the evidence submitted to the Banking Commission.

I am the son of a farmer, and, all belonging to me are associated with the farming community. I know the way the farmers, particularly in my constituency, are suffering as a result of the existing banking system and its operations. The banking policy carried on here is dictated from Threadneedle Street, through College Green, and they are left by the Minister for Finance to operate at their sweet will. It is good policy for those who dictate financial policy from College Green through Threadneedle Street to prevent the development of this country in any direction that will interfere in any way with British interests. If we are going to get the farmers to work hard and to produce more food for people who are hungry or half-hungry at home, or to produce more for export to a neighbouring State, in order to balance our national economy, the question of providing capital and credit will have to be tackled. Farmers must be provided with working capital and credit if they are to be expected within reason to respond to the call of the Minister for Agriculture. What is the position in connection with the banks? The poorer the people grow the higher are the dividends paid to the shareholders of the banks. Figures available from the report of the Banking Commission prove that. The paid-up capital of Irish banks operating within this State amounts to £8,262,000, while the reserves, apart from the dividends, amount to £9,170,000, so that to the original shareholders according to these returns, the Irish banks are in a position to repay every eight years the amount of the original capital invested by them.

To the original shareholders?

To the original stockholders.

I was wondering where the Deputy would find them.

Their legal successors are there. Banks operating here pay in dividends 12 per cent., 16 per cent., and up to 20 per cent. to the shareholders free of income-tax. Where is that money coming from? It is coming from the land, but the banks will not lend a brass farthing to those on the land, although the Minister for Agriculture and the Taoiseach say that it is necessary to do so. The rates of interest charged by these banks are prohibitive—they are next door to those charged by Jews—from the point of view of overhead charges. That accounts for the bank's reserves as well as the high rate of dividends they pay. According to returns the amount of money shown to be invested by the banks operating here is £86,000,000. That money was made out of the soil of this State. How is it invested? They have £7,000,000 invested within the State and £79,000,000 invested outside it. The assets of these same banks are shown in the report of the Banking Commission to be £196,000,000 but £130,000,000 are outside this State and £66,000,000 within the State. I dare say these figures explain, to some extent, the anti-Irish operations of the people who, at present, dictate our whole financial policy. I wonder has the Taoiseach, who I understand, is a very deep reader, read anything that might interest him about the Government of New Zealand since the present Labour Government came into office. For instance, has he studied the position that the Labour Government of New Zealand were confronted with on the part of the bankers when they came into office some years ago? Has he seen how very successfully they countered the operations of people who had a hold of the money machine when Mr. Savage's Government came in?

That is why Mr. Nash is in Threadneedle Street now.

I understand the Deputy had some contact with people from New Zealand recently, and I am sure if he was interested he could have asked questions about that. If he did he would have got an answer. I could not answer. It would be interesting to Deputies who dislike the existing banking system to read the recent history of the operations of the New Zealand Labour Government, to see how they faced up to the problem in that country. The problem there was far greater than any the Taoiseach has had to face since he came into office. There was an idea amongst some people associated with the Government that we could not pay anything more than 30/- a week to an unskilled labourer and not more than £2 5s. od. a week to a transport worker. The Government should look up the rates of wages and conditions of service for all classes of workers employed in New Zealand and also look up the figures concerning the cost of living and compare these figures with those prevailing here. A worker in New Zealand can buy more for 17/10d than a worker here can buy for £1. These figures are quoted from returns issued by the International Labour Office. I presume the information supplied to that office by the Department of Industry and Commerce here is similar to that supplied by the same Department of the New Zealand Government.

Whether the Government accepts what I say or not in regard to the operation and the influence of the banking institutions on Government policy, they must face up to these facts, that there is a shortage of working capital and a complete lack of credit amongst the farming community. There is a certain acreage of arable land derelict. Does the Taoiseach know to what extent arable land is derelict, and the reason for that position? Does he know that during the past 12 years many of those who were landless men and uneconomic holders were not able to get the advantages that they should get, simply because they could not get cheap money or, in fact, money at any price? They will not get money from the banks, and the Government is doing nothing, except in very exceptional cases, to provide money at ridiculously high rates through the agency of the Agricultural Credit Corporation. That corporation is just as bad as any of the ordinary banking institutions in that respect. The rates of interest, and the machinery that has to be gone through to get even one loan, out of every ten applications, are ridiculous. No Deputy on the Government Benches will suggest that the facilities provided through the Agricultural Credit Corporation for getting capital meet the reasonable needs of the farming community.

I know of many cases in my constituency for a period of years where the best men that could be found got holdings from the Land Commission, and they had to let that land in some cases to the landlords from whom it was previously taken. I quoted one case here a couple of years ago where eight landless men, who got land from the Land Commission on one particular estate, had to sub-let their land to the grazier from whom it was originally taken. I am sure there are other Deputies who can quote similar cases. I merely quote those cases to support the plea to the Taoiseach, and through him to the Ministry as a whole, that this question must be faced and dealt with without further delay. The longer you delay taking a decision concerning the provision of better credit facilities for the farming community, the nearer they are going to bankruptcy. I would be the last person to say that this country is becoming bankrupt. This country has unlimited resources for development, but apparently the people who are going to say whether these resources will be used or not, are the people who control the banking system and who have no direct connection with the Government here.

The Government can provide money for some things whenever they think fit to do so. They went to the country last year and asked for a public subscription to the Financial Agreement Loan in order to pay to the British Government a sum of money which was previously stated not to be due. That loan was over-subscribed. I daresay it was over-subscribed by people who would prefer to subscribe to a loan to repay England rather than subscribe to a loan for the development of their native country. It is a peculiar mentality, but the fact remains that that loan was over-subscribed. In this year's Estimates we have provision made, at the request of the Minister for Defence, for expenditure under various Army services of a sum of £10,000,000. If we can get £9,000,000 or £10,000,00 to buy guns and bombs and bayonets from the British—and I daresay they are being bought from the British more than from any other country—for the purpose, if you like, of defending this country—and nobody knows who is going to attack us— surely it would be a much more deserving thing to provide money for the purpose of increasing our food supplies and enabling the people who live on the land to make a decent livelihood.

We can provide endless sums of money for pensions for able-bodied men, although the Taoiseach said at one time that he would see to it that pensions would not be given to able-bodied men. There have been two pensions provided in some cases for certain persons when they decided to retire from political life. That is the information contained in records recently submitted to me by the Minister for Finance, and those records include the names of a considerable number of Deputies who sit across there on the benches behind the Government. There are three pensions in some cases.

That question does not arise on this Estimate.

I submit that if money can be found so readily for the purpose of providing £10,000,000 by way of repayment to Great Britain, and for the purpose of providing £9,000,000 or £10,000,000 in order to purchase arms and ammunition and all the paraphernalia associated with the Department of Defence, money should be found for the much more deserving purpose of providing capital and credit, and establishing a financial policy that would help to solve the problem of unemployment. How can we solve unemployment unless we remedy the position of the people who work on the land? Certain figures have been quoted—their accuracy has not been challenged—to show that there has been a decline in the number of persons employed on the land of £43,000 inside the last few years. Has the Taoiseach asked for any information recently regarding the extent to which farmers are getting out of beet cultivation?

That is obviously a matter that should be raised on the Vote for Agriculture.

Yes, but it has a bearing on the shortage of capital and the lack of credit for the farmers. I allege that the reduction of the acreage in beet, which is very large in my own constituency, and the reduction in the quantity of milk supplied by the dairy farmers to the co-operative creameries, is due to the shortage of working capital and the lack of credit.

Surely that is a matter that is not relevant now?

The Deputy is obviously discussing agricultural matters and the conditions of the farming community, matters which were discussed at some length on the Estimate for Agriculture.

If I am discussing them, I am discussing them from one angle, namely, the angle that the Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Finance, and the other Ministers who come within the ambit of my criticism, having failed to do their duty, having failed to produce a policy which would conform to the promises that they made in regard to agriculture and in regard to industrial revival, to the promises they made with reference to the solution of the unemployment problem and other problems to which I have referred, the responsibility now lies on the Taoiseach as head of the Government to explain why these Ministers have not taken the necessary action that they should have taken.

The Deputy should be quite clear that this is not an occasion for arraigning the Ministry. It is an opportunity for raising wide questions of policy, not details of Departments, such as the acreage in beet or the decline in milk production.

I submit that the decline in production has a definite bearing on the lack of working capital and the shortage of credit, and, in fact, that the existing banking system is wholly responsible for the decline in agriculture and in industrial production.

No matter what the Chair rules, the Deputy goes back again on it and submits it and repeats it in the form of a submission. The details of Estimates may not be raised. On the Deputy's own contention, he may raise every Estimate and state that he was raising it from the aspect of banking. We have not heard anything about banking or currency for the last ten minutes.

It is very hard to know what one can refer to.

It is not for the Chair to say. The Chair is merely pointing out what the Deputy may not say.

If I try to keep myself in order on a question of policy by merely quoting details of justified allegations, I am told I may not go into the details of the administration of a Department. I say, in conclusion, that the Minister for Agriculture is incompetent and unfit to hold his position——

Hear, hear!

——because he is not carrying out the policy which he promised he would carry out; that the Minister for Industry and Commerce——

I think the Deputy heard the Chair state distinctly that it is not a time for arraigning Ministers. It is an opportunity for discussing wide questions of policy. The Deputy had his opportunity of discussing those Ministers to whom he referred when their Estimates were before the House.

I am arraigning the policy of the Government. The Taoiseach is head of the Government and is responsible for the existence of these incompetent Ministers and surely I am entitled to do that on a Vote of this kind?

The Deputy has been informed that he is not so entitled.

Is the Taoiseach not responsible for the nomination and appointment of——

The Chair is not under cross-examination. It has given a ruling.

Well, I want the Taoiseach on this Vote to defend the inaction—

He is looking for suspension.

Is it in order for the Parliamentary Secretary to start a conversation when I am trying to keep myself in order? Does the Parliamentary Secretary want to make a point?

No. Go ahead—I will let you speak.

It was only a friendly conversation.

I overheard what he said.

And it upset you?

No, not in the least. The Ceann Comhairle is upsetting me much more than you ever will. In any case, being the kind of fellow who worries about nothing, I will not remain awake to-night either about the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle or of any of your interruptions.

That, surely, is disrespectful to the Chair?

Your interruptions are, more than anything else. I have raised these matters, and, of course, Sir, in view of your ruling, I am prevented from raising other matters which I consider—and I say so emphatically—I have a right to raise upon the Vote for a Department concerning the head of the Government of the country. The head of the Government, sitting on those benches to-day, is responsible for the existence of the Ministry; responsible for the appointment of the individuals who comprise that Ministry; responsible for the failure of the persons concerned to carry out the so-called policy of the Fianna Fáil Government; and I hope that he will take advantage of this opportunity—on what is one of the few occasions upon which he has come into this House—to defend the inactivity of the Government, and, if he can, to defend the existing banking system in this country which is responsible for the present very grave depression in agriculture and responsible for the unemployment of 100,000 of our citizens to-day.

I formally second the motion.

Sir, anyone who read the result of the South Dublin election——

I was afraid to refer to that.

——or who listened to the gloomy reception which our new colleague received to-day might come to the conclusion that Fianna Fáil were down and out. That they are slipping is certainly true, but they are not down and out, and they are not down and out because they have, as leader, one of the astutest politicians in Europe. He has been greatly disgruntled and considerably alarmed, and he is now busily engaged in investigating the contents of his political bag of tricks, and he will bring something out of it; do not be a bit uneasy about that! My heart really bled for the disheartened colleagues of our new and very welcome recruit to-day, and I thought it only right, as soon as I could, to bring them that message of encouragement; they are only slipping; they are not done for yet. They should take heart, and I suggest that, at the conclusion of the Taoiseach's observations, when he is replying, they might show what they can really do in the way of giving a good hand for a good performance, just to show the world that their spirit is not altogether crushed by the first of what are going to be many electoral reverses. While they may very well take courage from the knowledge that their leader, the Taoiseach, is a pastmaster of political manoeuvre, I think it right, on this occasion, to remind the House that, while political manoeuvring may do much to retrieve the fallen fortunes of a political Party, it can do very little indeed to retrieve the fallen fortunes of a nation or to avert the inevitable consequences of economic error.

Deputy Davin, to-day, gave us the benefit of his views on banking, and as I listened to Deputy Davin in 1939, I could not help being reminded of Deputy MacEntee in 1929. One saw every weather-beaten old bird of economic heresy, which was released by Deputy MacEntee in 1929, flapping drearily over from Deputy Davin's extended hand to light upon the shoulder of the Minister for Finance to-day, and the Minister winced as each bird perched. Now, I think it is quite true, and I think the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach are beginning to realise it, that the economic state of this country is now extremely precarious, and my purpose to-day, is to provide the Taoiseach with an opportunity of telling us what the Government proposes to do about it.

Public expenditure in this country has gone up, since 1931, from £31,852,000 to something in the neighbourhood of £45,000,000 per annum at the present time. That represents the national expenditure and the expenditure of local authorities. Undeniably, that has resulted in an acceleration of the circulation of money, and the banknote issue has expanded, largely, if not entirely, due to that public expenditure. The national income has materially decreased; but in addition to those two extremely alarming features in the national balance sheet we find that our liabilities are rising and our assets are dwindling, and the Minister for Finance, very prudently, in his Budget statement, directed the attention of this House and of the people to that fact and warned them that we were straitened and in stringent circumstances and that he was battling desperately with a very grave financial emergency which must end in disaster if certain contingencies, over which we had no control, came to pass. I am sorry to say that it is pretty generally accepted now that the contingency of a European war will come to pass before the end of this year.

What are our liabilities? They have been set out very cogently in the Banking Commission report, and, much as that document is contemned by certain Deputies in this House, at least it will be agreed that it is a very valuable repository of information. In paragraph 511 of the report, the commission directs the attention of the country to the fact that we are building up a growing liability with every acre of land we distribute. Prior to 1933, the distribution of land was an economic operation except for the Improvement Grant. Since 1933, every acre of land we distribute involves the State in a burden of 50 per cent. of its entire value, and the more land we distribute the greater becomes our dead-weight debt. In addition to that, we have accepted the policy of migration from the West to the central plains of Ireland, the expense of the administration of which is positively terrifying, and if it is to be pursued we have got to recognise that it is going to involve us in an ever-increasing burden of dead-weight debt.

Many Deputies, when they read the Estimates and see them rising, seeing the administrative expenses of each Department of State increase, forget that that is only part of the story; because in this country we have made no actuarial provision at all for the pension rights of our civil servants or any of our public servants. Now, we started out in this State with an average age level in the Civil Service. For the first 15 years of the State, with the exception of the Treaty rights which were claimed, we had little normal superannuation from public services. But now we are going to have the normal requirements of the Civil Service, with the result that in place of every public servant that we now have, when they retire, we are going to have two, one pensioned and one doing the work that that servant was doing before he retired. Now, remember that the contingent liability for the pensions of all those public servants is a very formidable sum which is going to accumulate into a larger and larger annual charge for the next 15 or 20 years.

Deputies often here speak quite cheerfully of borrowing to balance the Budget or borrowing to meet services that they think very necessary and desirable. Do they ever recall that every £ you borrow imposes an annual charge upon the Budget? Do they realise that in 1924 our annual debt charge was £120,000? That is all the public debt of this country cost us in interest charges. In 1937 the annual debt charge is £2,377,000 and will very shortly approach £3,000,000. If Deputies will go a little further, I think they may be astonished to discover the dead-weight debt of this State. We started without any debt at all. In 1921, when this State was launched, we had no public debt at all, and we got under the impression then that our debt position vis-á-vis other countries similarly situated to us was peculiarly advantageous. We have thrown that whole advantage away. Our gross public debt has grown from nothing to £79,000,000 in the last 15 years. Remember that is the gross debt. Against that we hold assets, but even our dead-weight debt has risen from nothing to £37,262,000. And remember that when you value assets you very frequently put upon them a very optimistic valuation; when you value debts they are there in black and white. There is no escaping from them. Certain it is that some day we have got to pay somebody £79,000,000 and, in the meantime, we have got to pay interest on the loan. It is true that we have certain assets upon which a value has been put, but what those assets will realise if they ever come to be realised is quite another story, and what they may pay to us from year to year to meet the charges on the gross debt is highly problematical.

That is not all, because, over and above the direct debt charges of which we know and the contingent liability for superannuation payments to which I have referred, we have also established legal machinery whereby the State guarantees certain loans. The liability under that is a fluctuating one, but in 1937 it was known to amount to £2,308,000. If any of those loans should default the State will have to find funds to redeem it.

Amongst the assets which we set against our gross debt there are shares in companies such as the Industrial Credit Company which, in my opinion, are worth little or nothing. If it is hard to arrive at any correct valuation for them, it is at least right to realise that our liabilities at present are immense, considering our resources, and that they are growing and must grow.

Under the present system.

Before I turn to the assets side, let me here interpolate that when you get a Deputy like Deputy Hickey, the Lord Mayor of Cork, who is a responsible man and a prominent man, facing the picture that I have drawn with murmurs about changing the system, and Deputy Davin talking about banks, knowing as much about banks as my foot, we realise the full measure of the Government's iniquity because they have drawn well-intentioned and honest men into the temptation of trying methods to relieve the country from the disaster that that Government has brought upon it, which those who understand economics and banking realise will bring far greater disaster upon us. When the Minister for Finance tries to explain to Deputy Hickey and to Deputy Davin the perils of the courses they advocate he will find he is talking to an absolutely blank wall—and I mean no disrespect to Deputy Hickey or Deputy Davin. But difficult, impossible, as the task may be of explaining to them the perils of the courses they advocate, it is nothing compared with the difficulty of explaining those perils to the mass of the electorate of this country who are invited by responsible, honest, well-meaning men to adopt radical methods to deal with admitted evils and who are assured by those well-meaning men that those methods will provide the key to solve the problem. The Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach, having brought the country into the position when we begin thinking of such methods, find themselves charged with the task of explaining the perils to the public and discover that they might as well be addressing them in Sanscrit or Persian for all the impression they can make upon their minds. That is one great crime with which I indict the Taoiseach and the Government at the present time, not only for having pursued courses the logical conclusions of which are national bankruptcy, but for having brought our people within the range of the temptation to resort to uncontrolled inflation and wild economic experiments which must ultimately react upon the poor of this country and virtually upon the poor alone because, as I have pointed out in this House before, the rich will go and take their money with them, just as they did in Australia, just as they did in New Zealand and just as they did in Newfoundland, and will leave the poor behind to suffer. When the suffering is over the rich can come back and collect the spoils.

Look at the other side of the balance sheet—our assets side. We heard Deputy Davin raving about the holdings of the banks, the profits they made, as if no bank had any deposits at all, and that they had invested all their profits outside the country. One of the grimmest features of the present situation is that the banks' holdings and securities outside this country have been steadly dwindling. The net external assets of the joint stock banks of this country began to dwindle three years ago and they have never stopped. Up to last year they were dwindling slowly and steadily. In the last six months they have begun to fall catastrophically, and the Minister for Finance knows it. Remember this, that as they fall one of our most valuable invisible exports falls with them—the interest that we got on those investments from the countries where we had investments. Those external assets are to this country the same property as that which makes Great Britain wealthy in her own right. What is it that makes Great Britain the greatest mercantile State in the world? What is it that gave her trade in all five Continents, and makes her to-day the only rival of the greatest military power in Europe? It is the external assets of her citizens. We were one of the only small countries in the world that had wealth comparable with that wealth of England, and we see it dwindling rapidly as it is dwindling to-day.

We know that the people of this country who had high standards of living are going to have forced upon them a lower standard of living, inevitably and certainly, coupled with the fact that the joint stock banks of this country are becoming choked with Government paper. The time has passed for discreet silence: now is the time—while there is still a chance to save the situation—to speak frankly. The banks of this country have taken up as much of the Government paper as they can with safety take and we find £5,000,000 of short-term loan unfunded. At this moment, £5,000,000 is outstanding on short-term loan and we have got to look for money wherewith to fund it. That short-term loan is at present saddled on the joint stock banks who already have in their portfolios an undue proportion of Government paper. The Minister for Finance knows that.

What is the result of the 5/6 income-tax? One of the first results is, that it has stopped saving amongst the people, because there is no surplus to save. People save only after they have provided themselves with that standard of living to which they have been accustomed. If you impose upon them an altogether unprecedented income-tax rate, they are not going to reduce the standard of living overnight: they simply stop saving. If that is allowed to become a permanent factor in our life, it may be that we shall find it hard to re-establish a margin of saving for years to come. For some time after the first impact has had its effect people stop saving, and saving in this country has now stopped.

Anyone who is trading in rural Ireland knows the condition of trade. There is no shopkeeper in rural Ireland at the present time, I believe, who is earning his expenses. I doubt if many farmers are making profit. Unemployment is rising. It is true that the published figure is kept in some control by the tide of emigration flowing to Great Britain but remember that, after years of that steady flow, they are going still. They came up with me on the train to-day—they were emigrants for England. If that tide were not flowing, the unemployment figures would be absolutely staggering. But, even with that immense exodus of young people—some of them going in the knowledge that they are in danger of being conscripted in Great Britain —we still have an immense army of unemployed. I do not think anyone driving through the streets of Dublin will deny that poverty is still widespread. Drive through Buckingham Street, Rutland Street, Mountjoy Square or Gloucester Street, or most parts of that constituency where we had a by-election so recently, and you will find plenty of poverty still, never mind that poverty which we all know in rural Ireland, which never is as arresting or cruel as the poverty of city life, because it is tempered by the charity of neighbours. Not, indeed, that charity is unknown in the tenement houses of Dublin: perhaps there is more charity there than in many places in the country, but unfortunately they have not got the same resources to help neighbours as are happily still surviving in rural parts of Ireland.

The transport system has broken down. Railways are bankrupt—and that, after we have passed drastic legislation, five years ago, which we were sure was going to save the situation for all time. I have got here the balance of trade figures. We used to be told that the adverse trade balance of £11,000,000 on a total trade of £95,000,000, spelt bankruptey. We were told that by the present Minister for Finance, at a time when our invisible exports were substantial. To-day we have an adverse trade balance of £16,000,000 on a total trade of £67,000,000; and it has been as high recently as £22,000,000 on a total trade of £60,000,000.

There is, however, a far more sinister and dangerous fact existing than those deplorable figures relating to the trade of this country. When we had an adverse trade balance of £11,000,000 on a total trade of £95,000,000, we had a steadily increasing quantity of invisible exports. What is the position in regard to those invisible exports now? Remember that the invisible exports of this State—if we are to judge by the returns of the joint stock banks from year to year—were more than enough to cover the visible adverse trade balance prior to 1931. What are the principal invisible exports of this State? They are the interest from investments abroad, the receipts from emigrants' remittances, the sweepstakes, the British pensions and the tourist traffic. All of these were on the up-grade in 1931, and they were more than enough to extinguish the adverse trade balance, and they were increasing. What are they now? I have not by me at the moment the figures for the external assets of the joint stock banks, but I may have them before I sit down. They are going down rapidly, and as they go down the interest on our investments held abroad must go down too. It is common knowledge that it is.

Emigrants' remittances have virtually stopped. Eight years ago we derived an astonishing annual income from the remittances of those who went out to the United States of America. Anyone who understands that business, or who lives amongst the people, realises that the history of that remittance business was that the emigrant who went to America sent home a portion of his earnings to his parents—or her parents—for the first ten or 12 years of his sojourn in the United States. By that time the emigrant married and settled down and the remittances tended to dwindle away—certainly as an annual amount. But, as the remittances of one flight of emigrants dwindled away, another flight of emigrants took their place; and so a constant stream of remittances was maintained and did, in fact, become a very substantial invisible export of this country. With the cessation of emigration to America which took place during Mr. Cosgrave's régime, that stream of remittances began to dwindle, and, as it is now approaching ten years since emigration stopped, the stream of remittances has almost completely ended—and there is no sign of its beginning again. It is true that some money comes in from England, but it is nothing to compare with the remittances that came in from the United States in the past.

There can be little doubt that the sweepstakes will not yield the same return in the future as they have yielded in the past. With every public disturbance the world over their interest and fascination for the world tends to dwindle. They will progressively decline over the next ten, 15 or 20 years. We had a very large income in this country from the pensions payable to persons who had been in the British service and who are now resident in Éire. These people are dying off, and others are going to live in England, with resultant loss of that invisible export to this State.

Another item, to which I do not think even the Banking Commission has directed its attention, is that we are acquiring an invisible import, a liability, because a great many of the old people who owned land in this country, and who were bought out under the Land Acts, had their life and being in this country, but they educated their children in England, and, as they are dying off, the younger people who have made their lives in England, do not come to live here and the income and property of their parents is distributed amongst the young people, all of whom are living abroad, with the result that if the old people held British securities, we lose the invisible export of the interest payments which they received. If they hold Irish securities, those securities are transferred to external ownership and become for us, in the matter of trade balance, an invisible import which will tend to grow. The tourist traffic, we were led to believe, would provide a substantial asset, but if we are to continue blowing up the post offices of the British people, and generally creating pandemonium, and painting the blank walls of Killarney with: "Damn your concessions, Enland," and "To hell with Great Great Britain," I cannot see the tourist industry in this country developing on a very handsome scale. We must pay the price of our patriotism in the economic consequences of our own acts.

I take this occasion to say to the Taoiseach who, after all, is ultimately responsible for the policy of the Government: "What are you going to do about it?" We, the Opposition, perpetrated one serious error in the last five years, that is, that we foresaw the present situation too soon. Five years ago, we told the Taoiseach that his policy must inevitably end in the bankruptcy of this country, and I do not deny that that superbly astute political operator extracted considerable kudos from going out and saying: "We are not `bust' yet; they have been telling us that we are going `bust,' but we are not. Look at us— we are blooming." His colleague, the Minister for Finance, has been growing a little gloomy, however, in the last few years. The Taoiseach is still radiant and quite cheerful, but I notice that the Minister for Finance slumps a little lower in his chair every time he returns to the charge, and I do not blame him. The trouble of it is that when he and the Taoiseach were in optimistic humour together, they were in step. Unfortunately, they have got out of step now, and the Minister for Finance is learning more quickly than the Taoiseach, and woe betide any colleague of the Taoiseach who ever lets him see that he thinks he knows more than the Taoiseach, because Jonah never went down the whale's throat more quickly than that colleague of the Taoiseach will go.

So long as you sit at the feet of the god and adore, you are quite welcome to share in the reflected glory, but start to climb up towards his knees, and a very different tale will be told. The Irish Times need lay no soothing unction to its soul that if they secure the support of the Minister for Finance, the day is won. Little they know the Machiavellian operator they are conspiring against. The dagger in his sleeve is quite as ready as the gentle word, and so long as the gentle word will persuade the Irish Times to assure the residents of Pembroke that Mr. de Valera is not as bad as he looks, the gentle word will be forthcoming, but if they imagine that, by capturing the Minister for Finance, they can stay the Taoiseach's career, the dagger will emerge from the sleeve with equal certitude and lethal effect.

I want to try to open the eyes of the Taoiseach to the emergency into which he has brought this country, and to ask him what is he going to do about it. Deputy Davin wants him to do what New Zealand did. I told him, four years ago, that he would find himself confronted with the dilemma of Newfoundland. Newfoundland had to call the British into Newfoundland, and New Zealand had to send its Minister for Finance to what Deputy Davin calls Thread-the-Needle Street, and he is there now, and he will stay there until he gets money from the British Government to stop the leaks which his policy have put in the bottom of the ship of New Zealand finance. Are we going to Thread-the-Needle Street, or are we going to invite British Treasury officials over here to run this country? God forbid that that day should ever come; but, as certainly as we are standing in this House, if measures, and active measures are not taken soon to correct the economic position of this country and to re-establish its finance on sound foundations, to Thread-the-Needle Street the Taoiseach will have to go, and he can bring Deputy Davin with him.

And the Deputy.

He will never bring me. I have a warm regard for the British people in their own country. They have great qualities, but God forbid that I should ever appear a beggar at their gates. No one belonging to me ever brought this country there in that capacity. It is left to the latter-day patriots to do that, and they know it. If they bring a financial crisis on this country, in the present state of the world, that is the fate that awaits us. Enemies, aye, and misguided friends, of this country have often said in public that they wished this country could be induced to declare a republic, because if it had the experience of the economic consequences of that isolation, it would be only too glad to crawl back into the Empire in a couple of years. That has been said in this House and it has been said by men who really loved this country, but who little understood it, and it is being said now by the enemies of this country in Great Britain. I have heard them say it. The very individuals whom Deputies on the benches opposite think are clinging to this country and desirous of binding it with bonds of steel to Great Britain are, in fact, at this moment, clamouring to get this country to declare a republic, so that they could enjoy its subsequent humiliation.

Now that is the point to which we are being brought by the Government in office at the present time. It will be a solace and a joy to everybody who has belied this country in the past and to everybody who hates it now to have the country brought to this point. Imagine the feelings of our people the world over, imagine our own people here in Ireland and what their feelings will be if this country goes burst. Conceive the feelings of people in America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and all over the world who have held their heads high and boasted of their Irish extraction and gloried in the fact that when our own people here got control of Ireland that they would make this country happy and prosperous. Imagine their feelings now when we are made public fools of by our own financial ineptitude. Remember this, that democracy is but poorly qualified to deal with finance and financial matters. Therefore, there rests upon the public men of our country the responsibility to deal capably with these financial matters and not to bring the people into the danger of seduction by the hair-brained inflator who is often an honest, decent fellow trying to deal with dynamite, the nature of which he does not understand. But once you get inflation going, you reach a state that no government can control. Do not imagine that if we had inflation in the morning its effects would be seen immediately and that the danger it would be and the injuries it would inflict on the country would be seen at once. If we had inflation in the morning it would be a pleasant experience for many of us. We would find that all our assets, all that we possess, would have an increased money value. More money would be spent and there would be at once a relaxation of the strain that at present exists. It is only when we are hell-bent for disaster that we will begin to feel the real evil of it and then we can do nothing to check it.

I have mentioned the question of the net external assets. For the information of the House, I direct attention to the fact of what our net external assets were in 1934 and what they were in December, 1938. The year 1934 is the first legitimate date to which I may refer because at that time the American "hot" money had gone out of this country back to America. The net external assets of this country in December, 1934, were £72,000,000; in December, 1935, £71,000,000; in December, 1936, £72,000,000. In December, 1937, they dropped to £67,000,000, and in December, 1938, they dropped to £61,000,000.

Now, I do not want to see this country forced into the position of Newfoundland on the one hand or New Zealand on the other hand. If Deputies care to refer to the Minority Report signed by Deputy O'Loghlen of Clare, in his capacity as a member of the Banking Commission they will see that he is fascinated and dominated by the New Zealand experiment and his ideas run largely along the line of the New Zealand plan. The New Zealand plan has gone burst. Everybody knows it has gone burst and nothing can save it now but the British Treasury. Remember that so long as you are standing on your own feet with your own money you can talk to the money markets with confidence. So long as you are good for a loan, lenders are coming to you offering their money. Go burst and ask them for a loan and they will prescribe their own terms; they will keep the screws on until you learn their lesson. New Zealand will learn that to her cost. It will not be a Government or a Government Department that will put on the screws on New Zealand. It will be the people who control the money.

Now whether we like it or not we are living in the world. We are not living in Mars. We are not living in a vacuum. Things may have been different when it took three days to get to London and six days to get to New York. Now it takes three hours to get to London and 20 hours to get to New York. You have got to realise that it is no longer possible for us to isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. We have got to take the world as we find it and protect our own people as best we can in that world in which we are fated to live. We are strangely fortunate in our position, and if we submit our people to the same tyranny as that to which the people of other countries have had to submit in the past, we have got no one to blame but ourselves.

I have been trying to open the Taoiseach's eyes to what he is doing in the hope that even at the eleventh hour he may have the courage to restore to us that economic independence founded on solvency without which political independence can never be enjoyed in this country. We have got to do two things. We have got to economise on our administrative expenses and we have got to increase the national income. We can increase the national income of this country immensely by resorting to the expedients which I have outlined. If we do that we can get a higher standard of living for our people than the people have in any other country in the world. We can then show, as those who fought for the freedom of this country said and hoped we could, how a Christian country should be run. With the maximum income which our national resources would yield if the country were properly run, we can enjoy a moderate general prosperity rather than riches on the one hand and destitution on the other. This is not the time nor the occasion to elaborate that. I have spoken of it on previous occasions. I do not wish to go into it now again.

There are two other matters to which I wish to refer briefly. Deputies in this House and outside it not infrequently consider it to be some duty imposed on them by patriotism to denounce the Commonwealth and everything belonging to the Commonwealth. Recently we have altered the form of our passports, and we now call on everybody in the name of Eamon de Valera, the Taoiseach, to let our nationals pass without let or hindrance. I think the form of the passport matters very little, but I loathe and detest the futile deception of our people by our own Prime Minister. The Taoiseach himself brought into this House a Bill and with his majority passed it into law making the King the instrument of international usage between us and other States. The prime document of international usage, in so far as it affects the citizens of the State, is the passport, just as a diplomat's credentials are the prime instrument of his authority to represent his country. We have altered the form of that passport in order to deny the fact that the King is the instrument of our association in the Commonwealth. This thing deceives nobody. It is a weak-minded, and a futile thing to do. It is a denial of what the Taoiseach thought right to do when he presented the Bill which subsequently became the External Relations Act of this Assembly. It does not make much difference one way or the other, but it is just that kind of dishonesty with our people which debauches us all—those deceived and those who do the deceiving.

On the wider issue as to what the attitude of this country—Ireland— should be to the Commonwealth of Nations, it does behove the Taoiseach to say a word. Leave out of the question all sentiment. I do not believe that there are many people in this country will ever love England. There can be in our generation no attachment to Great Britain founded on sentiment or affection. There can and, so far as I am concerned, ought to be, a relationship with Great Britain founded on mutual respect and recognition by each party of the other's virtues and qualities. Over and above that, there is the plain, inescapable, economic issue of our interest—Ireland's interest—in the Commonwealth of Nations. Have those who throw their bombs or make their speeches ever asked themselves what is going to happen to the people of this country if Great Britain, in fact, ceases to be a great power? Suppose the British Commonwealth of Nations was broken up—and it can only be broken up on the assumption that Great Britain is overthrown and reduced to the status of a third-class power in Europe—what is going to happen to this country? This country depends for its present immunity from external attack on the fact that any country desirous of attacking Ireland knows that it will be attacking England too. By virtue of our membership of the Commonwealth of Nations, we are not only delivered from attack by Great Britain but, by the constitutional fictions of the Commonwealth, we are actually in a position of equality with England. By the constitutional facts of the Commonwealth, we are in actual political equality with England because England knows that, if she attempts to touch us, she involves herself at once in constitutional and political complications not only with us but with Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa as well—not because those countries love us but because our status is their status and a precedent established by interfering politically with us would be one which might subsequently be used to permit Great Britain to interfere with them. When the beflowered Parliamentary Secretary stops twittering, I shall go on.

I should not like to interrupt the twittering of the Deputy.

You ran away from conscription once—a fugitive from England.

Over and above that political independence of England, which no other small nation adjoining a great nation enjoys, we also have the extraordinary market with which Great Britain provides us. If we lost the British market and were driven to seek a market for our produce outside Great Britain, as we certainly would have to do if Great Britain became a pauper State, an impoverished country unable to deal with us on the terms on which she is glad to deal with us now, this country would become one of the poorest agricultural countries in the world, unable to afford our people the same standard of living enjoyed by the peasant peoples of Central Europe. Do responsible people in this country ever advert to that? Do they realise that, in desiring the destruction of the Commonwealth and of Great Britain, they are really desiring the reduction of our people to the level of the most miserable peasants in Europe? I do not expect the fools to understand that but I know the Taoiseach understands it and I know the Minister for Finance understands it. Have they the moral courage to say so or are we to go on for ever bewildering and deceiving and lying to our own people? Are we to go on for ever telling them that it is patriotism —and the only patriotism—to deny those facts? Nobody suggests that we should compromise fundamental principles or sell our convictions for money. But where a course of international conduct safeguards our honour, protects our integrity, achieves every ideal that reasonable men can have in mind—the sovereignty and independence of our State—and, at the same time, gets for our people unrivalled prosperity and an unrivalled standard of living, are we to go on urging our own people to destroy themselves? That is what many people on the far side of the House do. If they do it deliberately, knowing what they do and wishing people to understand it, that is their democratic right. But if they do it praying to God that that which they advocate will never come to pass, then they prostitute their freedom more horribly than any person I ever thought could and they will ruin the country. We have got responsibilities now and we ought to face them. A very heavy responsibility rests on the Government at present to tell the people the truth and invite them to face it.

The last subject on which the Taoiseach ought to speak is Partition. I crossed swords with the Taoiseach in this House once on Partition because I said that he deliberately, for political reasons and for the advancement of his own Party interests, raised hopes which he knew could not be fulfilled. I believe that was true. I believe that, by the policy he has since pursued in regard to Partition, he has destroyed, at least, one glorious opportunity for making a very real impression upon it. I believe that, immediately after the London Agreement, we could have got the skids under Partition and, but for the Taoiseach's folly in indulging in public pyrotechnics, I believe we would have done it. That opportunity is now lost, and I want to ask the Taoiseach if he proposes to continue demanding that Great Britain shall re-enter the arena of Irish public life and act as arbiter between North and South. Does he persist in the invitation to Great Britain to reinterest herself in that matter? Does he demand the cooperation of Great Britain in imposing upon our fellow-countrymen in Northern Ireland something which at present they do not want? If he does, he is doing a grave disservice to this country. We got the British out of this country, and our advice to them now should be that the only duty they have is to stay out. There is no use in imagining that we can satisfactorily undo the wrong that has been done unless we undo it with the consent of our people on both sides of the Border. There is no use discussing the merits or demerits of, or the responsibility for, the wrong that was done in 1922. It is there and it is our job to remedy it, if we can. The only basis on which we can remedy it is by winning the goodwill of the people of Northern Ireland. Ulster, with a resentful, bitter, disillusioned minority in it, would be far more a liability than an asset. Ten years or 20 years is a short term in a nation's life. We have had one civil war in this country. God forbid that, by our own ineptitude, we should precipitate another. Remember, the Taoiseach may make certain speeches meaning to go no further than his spoken word.

But those speeches will be taken as a justification by others for going much further and for starting a conflagration which the Taoiseach could not stop. If it should start, it is no defence before his own people or posterity, to wring his hands and say that he never foresaw it. If he starts, or if he be the cause of starting, civil strife in this country again, his name will be cursed for ever by succeeding generations of Irish people.

Like it or dislike it, the people of Northern Ireland, the Protestant Orange people of Northern Ireland, are Irish and war between them and us is civil war. There is no use pretending that they are foreigners and that we are natives. They are just as Irish as we are; they have just as good a claim to be in this country as we have. They have just as much reason to be proud, and so far as I am aware they are just as proud, of Ireland as we are. The only satisfactory basis upon which we can get rid of Partition in this country is to reach the masses of the people of Ulster and create here in Éire such a state of affairs as will induce the plain ordinary people of Ulster to forbid Craigavon to keep them out of their native country any longer. That may sound Utopian, incredible and impossible. The Deputy from Donegal shakes his head in doubt but the alternative is civil war. Neither Deputy Breslin nor I am old enough to remember the spirit that prevailed in East Donegal or in North Monaghan 50 years ago. If anybody got up 50 years ago to advocate conciliation and forbearance amongst the Orangemen of North Monaghan led by territorial magnates in defiance of the forces of law, to assassinate the Catholic population of that area, he would have been met with the same incredulous head shaking as Deputy Breslin visits upon me now. Patience, forbearance and courage have produced in East Donegal and in North Monaghan a situation where Catholic and Protestant, both loyal to their profound convictions, can live in peace and good neighbourliness one with the other, where the thought of violence, hatred or recrimination is as dead as Queen Anne.

It may take time and patience—it will certainly take courage—to face the task of carrying that spirit across the Border into Northern Ireland. Violent speeches, inflamed by hatred in this part of Ireland and attempts to defame and derogate from the character of our own people in Northern Ireland, are not calculated to hasten that day. Deputy Davin does no service to this country when he suggests that our publicity services should be employed to paint our own countrymen as dastards or as deeply dyed ruffians. I do not deny that outrages they have perpetrated and violence they have been guilty of, but we can do nothing to abate these evils by offering recrimination for recrimination and hatred for hatred. That way we shall only deepen and intensify the bitterness that already exists. I do not want to pretend for a moment— I know it is not true—that I have any better appreciation of Christian principles than any other Deputy in this House but it is ludicrous for us to be talking about Christian principles, about the obligation to love our enemies and to forbear from injuring those who injure us, if at the same time we preach at every street corner that because Orangemen and Protestants have been guilty of certain outrages we must take similar measures against them.

I did not suggest that.

I did not apply that to the Deputy. Those who have to do with the North and who understand the difficulties of our people in the North realise the deplorable effect that that whole attitude to our problem involves, because you put on our people in Northern Ireland almost an obligation to be more extreme than we are, and any hope of arriving at a modus vivendi for our national problem is made more difficult because of that attitude. I do not deny that Sir Basil Brooke's language is outrageous. I do not deny that when the Northern Premier speaks of a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people, it is an outrage on our people, but there is no use in meeting that kind of language with the same kind of language.

It is done.

Unhappily, it is done. I do not want to labour this matter further, because I am profoundly convinced that conciliation is the ultimate effective key to this business. I do not deny the difficulty of achieving conciliation. I do not deny that it must sound Utopian in the ears of another. I assert, however, that, taking the long view, it is the right attitude. I do not deny its difficulty. I do not deny the difficulty of not only practising these principles, but of persuading those Catholics, who are actually suffering under that daily tyranny, of the possible efficacy of such a course. I admit all that. Nevertheless, it sometimes takes very great moral courage to do the right thing. I know it is far easier to go to our people who are suffering under a sense of great grievance in Northern Ireland, to urge them to extreme lengths, and to say that in any action they take, no matter how extreme, they will have our sympathy. That is the easy thing and the popular thing to do. That is the type of oration that will win praise, and that will persuade the unthinking masses that the man who expresses himself in that way is their true champion. But the right thing to do, the far-seeing thing to do, is now, in this dark and difficult time, to preach the language of conciliation, to ask our people to recognise that those people who are at present affronting them are still their fellow-countrymen and must be ultimately conciliated to the conception of a united Ireland. I am convinced that that can be done.

I think we would be astonished by the reaction which we would get, not from the leaders of Orangeism and violence in the North, but from the plain, ordinary people. I think we would be astonished to discover that those who appear to be so intractable, dark and irreconcilable would be an asset in our struggle for conciliation, that we would draw from our present enemies some of our best friends and that by meeting violence and injustice with patience and forbearance, we would tear from under the leaders of ascendancy and intolerance in Ulster, the very foundations upon which they at present stand—the common people, the ordinary artisans, farmers, merchants and professional men of Northern Ireland. Having won them, we could look forward with confidence to the passing of the political passions that at present separate these people from us and to the emergence of a united Ireland where they would be free to differ as deeply as they wished from us, in the certainty that equality of treatment and equal respect for every loyal citizen would be forthcoming in such a State as a united Ireland must, and should be.

I should like to say that I know of no Government that has had better opportunities of solving the problem that confronts us than the present Government. As one who has a very high opinion of the Taoiseach, I want to say quite candidly that I am disappointed at the way in which he has dealt with the problem that confronts us since he came into power. When I think of the conditions of the poor in this country, of the old-age pensioners and the windows and the "means" test that is employed in their cases, I want to say to the Taoiseach and his Government that they are not facing up to their responsibilities as they should. I do not want to repeat some of the things said by Deputy Davin. I want to say what I have often said before, that as long as we do not control the credit of this country we will not be able to solve the problems that confront us. I do not know of any Government in the world that has a better opportunity of doing that than the Government we have here. The Taoiseach has the backing of the people, he has the necessary machinery and the full support of this House: he has all that if he is prepared to tackle this problem that confronts us. As one who has a full knowledge of the poverty in which many of our people live, I want to say that in my opinion the Taoiseach is not facing up to that problem. The sooner he is prepared to do so, then the sooner we will be in a position to show a headline to the Governments of the world.

After the wild and exaggerated statements that we have had from Deputy Dillon on the national situation in this country, it is time, I think, that a more balanced picture of that situation should be given to the House and to the country. We have been told that the country is on the edge of bankruptey: that the banks are unable to absorb the short-term loans offered to them by the Government: that the country is about to suffer a severe reverse of its financial fortunes. I am certain that Deputies know that all those statements are wildly exaggerated. They must also know that statements of the kind can do immense damage to a State such as ours, particularly at the present time when we are beginning to tackle the questions created by the economic war: when we are beginning to have some very evident restoration of our finances through our increasing exports to England, of an increase in our general turnover in trade as well as in respect of the amount and the value of agricultural production in the country. I honestly believe that Deputies like Deputy Dillon should think twice before they ruin what is good in their arguments and destroy what is valuable in their criticism by making outrageous statements which can do no good to the credit of the country. I think that we should examine the question realistically and fairly, and see if we can arrive at some form of policy which will secure the credit of this country, and which will prevent, beyond any chance, any of the evils happening to the country which have been portrayed by Deputy Dillon.

I, speaking on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party, make no apology for all that we did in connection with the economic war. I make no apology for the fact that we carried out a certain form of financial policy which was aimed at bringing about the end of most of our political problems with England. I make no apology for the fact that when we found when we came into office that the administration which preceded us had gone too far in the opposite direction in maintaining for the poorest citizens in the community the lowest possible level of existence: that it had not developed our secondary industries to enable us to fall back on other methods of employment should our system of economy change, that we set out to change all that, nor do I need to make any apology for the very large increase in social and national expenditure designed to offset the worst effects of the economic war.

The economic war was like any other economic depression such as other countries throughout the world have experienced. Other countries, just as ours, adopted the same methods to fight and to overcome those difficulties. Other countries increased their social services. They increased the taxes for the purpose of providing money for those social services. Other countries attempted to provide employment through alternative methods of production, and we did the same. By ending the economic war we effected a very large saving in our debt to England in the form of a remission of £88,000,000, but beyond that, what has been of untold value to this State is that we solved a great many of the difficulties between ourselves and England. From the financial standpoint, that has been of incalculable benefit to us and will be more so in the future.

We have done those things, and, as a result, the country has incurred a certain burden of dead-weight debt. As a result we have lost a certain amount of our external assets. I need not repeat all that has been said by Deputy Dillon, but we know that the country has had to pay for the economic war. One of the things that I think should be learned by members of the Labour Party more than by the members of any other Party in this House is that you cannot produce money out of nothing: that, if your total turnover of trade and your total of agricultural production decline, the country inevitably becomes poorer. The fact that we financed the economic war by special means does not mean that, in the end, we shall not to some degree suffer for the loss sustained, just as other countries have suffered loss because of the economic processes through which they went. The sooner we face that issue the better. Failure to face it on the part of any Party in this House would, in my opinion, be fatal for this country.

We have been told with the greatest possible exaggeration, with a straining of every point to its uttermost limit, of what the cost of the economic war has been, and of the present financial results, and we arrive at the point when we must ask ourselves: what are we going to do now? I regard the policy of the economic war, to a large extent, as a special policy devoted to a special purpose for the attaining of a special end. Now that the economic war is over it is quite obvious that between now and the next five years, or between now and the next 12 months perhaps, the Government's financial policy no doubt will receive careful consideration with a view to the future. One of the worst features I think of our life in this country is what I might describe as the attempts at escape from reality by the advocates of social credit theories as enunciated by different people. I cannot think of anything that is worse in the character of the people, having regard to what they have gone through, than to have advocated as a solution of our difficulties special forms of credit policy: the idea that by expanding currency and changing the banking system you can get over the inevitable difficulties of human nature. All these policies involve in one way or another social credit. The idea that politicians can manage credit better than the professional bankers: the idea that by huge credits given out by the State you can give employment and solve unemployment: the idea that you can advance money for the purpose of production without being sure that the returns from that production will pay, all those ideas I compass in the general term "social credit."

So we are to remain as we are?

We are to carry on?

The curious thing is that we have people in this country to-day who go on advocating those policies, although those policies are slowly being discarded throughout the world, and although the very people who advocated them are now realising that they did not work as well as was expected. It is well, when people get up in this House and talk about solving unemployment by changing the banking system, that the ordinary people in this country should be made aware that in other countries those policies have, to a large extent, been forgotten, because they have not worked where they have been tried.

For instance?

For example in the case of New Zealand—a magnificent example of what happens when you attempt to tamper with currency in a country. It is well that the people of this counry should know the facts about New Zealand. I will begin by surprising the House; I will read an account of New Zealand finance. It is from The Round Table, a quarterly review of the politics of the British Commonwealth. It is a very impartial report, written by a man who obviously was trying to make the best he possibly could out of the situation. It reads as follows:—

"At the end of 1938 New Zealand was able to look back upon a year described by the Prime Minister as one of record prosperity. Whether or not `prosperity' is the right word to use, it seems clear that the combined effect of the Government's policy and several satisfactory export seasons had produced a year in which internal wage levels, business activity, employment, and individual spending were higher than ever before."

That looks grand. But we go on a little bit, and there we find:

"Nevertheless there were other signs—signs that the fates would not be so kind to the Government in its second term of office as they were in its first. The excess of deposits in the post office savings bank, which had taken place in 1937, had changed by the end of 1938 to a substantial excess of withdrawals; exports were declining not only in value but also in quantity; advances to the Government by the reserve bank for purposes other than marketing were rapidly increasing; and the latter part of 1938 saw a rapid fall in the sterling funds held in London by the reserve bank and the trading banks. It was apparent that the country, as well as its citizens, had been drawing on its bank balance; and the close of the year was marked by the gazetting of the export licences regulations and the import control regulations"

In other words, at the end of a year under the system advocated by certain members of this House, and by certain people outside, New Zealand had lost a great part of her financial liberty. Already, currency was controlled; imports were radically controlled, and New Zealand will now have to go through in her own way exactly the same sort of control which takes place in Germany and Italy, where similar methods were tried in a different form. Luckily for New Zealand she has vast resources. Luckily for her she has a small, highly competent and well educated population, producing an enormous amount per head, and she can suffer probably for many years the result of a new policy without serious effect, just as we could in this country no doubt if social credit were to be practised here. Speaking of other countries which have adopted another form of expansionist economic theory, let us take the United States of America. Pump primers! We hear from the Labour benches the idea that by spending money and giving huge loans you can solve the problem of unemployment. There is hardly a competent economist in the United States to-day who will not tell you that one of the reasons why unemployment is so high there is because they pump primed far too much; because by rapidly increasing taxation, by removing income normally spent by individual citizens, by spending vast amounts of credit a lot of which became absorbed in administrative expenses, recovery in America was delayed, and in actual fact less employment is given at the present time in public and private enterprises than would have been given if they had been more careful, if they had tightened their belts and proceeded more cautiously.

Our belts are tight enough.

Then you have the same example in France. In France the Government of Monsieur Blum got the idea that the banks were doing wrong; that the regents of the Bank of France were having far too much control. Maybe they had. The regents' control was removed. The Government took over control, and at the same time they decided that the whole country could afford a very large increase in wages, a large reduction in hours of work and a general expansionist programme. What was the result? The result was that one of the crises which occur habitually in France, through overspending and overborrowing, took place. At the end of a few years the French Government was forced to go back, so that the Socialist programme advocated by Monsieur Blum is in operation only in certain industries. The reason France is able to go ahead to-day is because confidence has been restored in the public mind in regard to finance. I need hardly go on to give the example of Germany and Italy, as countries where credit expansion was indulged in extensively, in order to show the Labour Party that it is not advisable for this country, because no one in this country would tolerate 10 per cent. of the control in private life or in public finance or in commercial finance which has been in operation in Germany and Italy, and I may add, Sir, that the end is not yet.

Let us then take this country. I am simply regarding this country as being at a parting of the ways. The economic war is over. At the present time there are very heavy expenses, and at the end of 12 months the Government will have to make its decision as to where it stands. I take, in contrast, the countries of Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway and Holland. If you examine those countries—whether you examine their prosperity in the light of the income per head of the population, of the proportion of good housing to bad housing, of the increase of housing during the past ten years, of the relative amount of permanent employment amongst the young people, of the extent of social evils, or no matter what criterion you take—it will be found that they are the most prosperous countries in the world to-day, and those are countries which have gone as far away as possible from the policy advocated by members of the Labour Party. Those countries have been controlled for years and years by downright radical-socialist Governments. It is a strange thing to reflect that those countries whose finances are most sound had radical-socialist Governments, Governments elected by the workers of the country. It is those Governments which have conserved finance to the greatest possible degree. We go a little bit further on, and find France going back to a more conservative system of finance. We find democratic politicians in America forcing President Roosevelt to adopt a more conservative attitude to finance. We find that one of the reasons why it was so necessary for Germany to absorb Austria was because Austria, although she was bankrupt in 1919, by 1937 was one of the most conservatively managed countries in the world from the point of view of finance. A great deal of their economic problems had been solved because their finance was conservatively managed. We find Portugal occasionally spoken of as a country which has gone in for expansionist plans involving a departure from orthodox finance, but as far as Government finance is concerned it is strictly orthodox.

We have heard the Banking Commistion Report abused in this House by members of various Parties. I should like to say here and now, and I commit myself to it, that I believe in the major implications of the Banking Commission Report. I also agree with the Minority Reports as presented by Mr. Hurson and Mr. Colbert. I think there is a great deal to be said for them. They state that the housing policy must go on at all costs. I agree. I do agree with the major implications of that report. It has been far too much criticised in this House, and, now that we are discussing Government policy, I think it is only fair that it should be mentioned here that one of the people who wrote that report, Professor Per Jacobssen, is one of the greatest living experts on finance to-day. His advice given to at least four Governments has resulted in the resuscitation of those countries, and the lowering of unemployment there. No report written by him can be lightly discarded by any Party in this House. No one suggests that we need observe 100 per cent. of the implications of that report. Now that the economic war is over, now that we have saved £88,000,000 in the land annuities and have restored agricultural exports to a certain degree, no one suggests that we need observe all the severe strictures in that report. But, so far as that report says that we must pay our way as far as we can and to a greater degree than we have done in the past six years, there is evident commonsense in its remarks. I have no doubt in my own mind that this Party before the end of 12 months, or before the end of 24 months, provided no crisis has affected us which will alter the whole situation, will have taken the correct part.

I should like to say here something which has not been said by anybody so far, that it is my honest belief that it is neither the banks nor the members of any Party in this House who control credit policy in this country—it is the ordinary common citizen. As long as we carry out a capitalist economy in this country, the citizen who spends his savings, the citizen who builds a house, or improves his house, or paints his house, the vast majority of the citizens who have savings, whether great or small, the use of these savings by the citizens, the use of their income, the purpose to which they put it, will ultimately dictate the financial policy of this country, and no other agency will ever dictate financial policy. One of the things we have to bear in mind in connection with financial policy is the fact that we cannot control the actions of our citizens who spend their savings and who have a very tremendous effect on the whole financial policy of the country. If ever we were to change the financial policy to a more drastic form of expansionist policy, one of the first things we will have to do is to close the ports and regulate every individual citizen's bank balance, because we have a free country and we have ordinary capitalist economy practised freely. People who get up and advocate forms of social credit should remember that in the long run the ordinary citizens control credit, neither the banks nor anybody else.

It we were to get a Party into power who started advocating wild-cat schemes of radical credit expansion, the first thing that would happen would be that citizens would withdraw their money from the banks. The second thing would be that the people whose income is enormously valuable to this country would leave this country and go to England if given the chance. The third thing would be that people who normally spend sums on improving their position in life would not spend these sums, and gradually unemployment would increase. So long as the majority of the employment in this country is given by private citizens, this country must be democratic and observe orthodox financial methods; otherwise dictatorship is inevitable. I think everybody in this House will recognise that fact.

We had from the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement a clear warning that the limit had been reached in connection with expenditure, again assuming that we had ordinary conditions. I think it is well for Deputies to bear in mind that the Minister gave that warning and the suggestion that he had it fully in mind. Although I believe that the whole policy of the Government should be continued in the shape of social services, industrial production, and agricultural development, I trust that within 12 months the gap will be bridged as far as possible, that we shall, as far as possible, pay our way, and that we shall, as far as possible, do what is urgently necessary at present—give encouragement to the investment of private capital in ordinary business. I am absolutely convinced that the expenditure of the Government caused by the economic war is not having the effect any longer of transferring the surplus from the rich to the poor; and, in addition, that a certain proportion of the money secured in taxation has the effect of disemploying many citizens in the country. That was perfectly all right during the economic war. But, now that the economic war is over, I trust the whole House will agree on one thing—that, as far as possible, private capital should be attracted to new ventures. That is the essence of modern economics. It is what President Roosevelt failed to appreciate. It is what the French Government failed to appreciate. It is what half-a-dozen Governments in Europe who were faced by special difficulties, by severe depressions, failed to appreciate—the necessity for getting new capital working with the idea of giving employment in industry and in agriculture.

We have listened to a speech which was, in many respects, very interesting, and, viewing things from Deputy Childers' point of view and from the point of view of those for whom he speaks mainly, one might understand his point of view. But, I should like Deputy Childers to reconcile his speech with the speeches and promises which have been made by the Taoiseach and by other leaders of the Party of which he is a member. Deputy Childers tells us that he has discovered now where the various Prime Ministers in France went wrong; that he has discovered the fatal and fundamental error of President Roosevelt. If he had only been consulted in the matter they might not have made the mistakes which he alleges they made in dealing with very big matters affecting their own countries. However, with that declaration by him this evening, I am sure there will be a very considerable demand for his services either from America or from France.

But Deputy Childers quoted for us here this evening an article—he did not give us the name of the author— in a Commonwealth paper which he described as "The Round Table," purporting to give a picture of the conditions in New Zealand. I do not propose to discuss New Zealand at any length. I think a much more interesting problem for us is to find a solution of the problems and the evils which confront our own people at home. But, since Deputy Childers has dealt with New Zealand and has drawn a certain picture from what he has read, let me give him some official statistics which are obtainable from the Official Handbook of New Zealand. In 1935, the total production of New Zealand was £97,000,000. At the end of 1938, the total production was £135,000,000, an increase of almost 40 per cent. In 1935, farm production in New Zealand was £59,000,000 and in 1938, £83,000,000, an increase of over 40 per cent. Electric power units produced in New Zealand in 1935 totalled 12,000,000, and in 1938 19,000,000, an increase of 60 per cent. Exports—and these were mainly to the British market—in 1935, amounted to £46,000,000, and in 1938 to £58,000,000, an increase of 25 per cent., and that during the years when our exports to the same market fell catastrophically. In New Zealand the marriage rate is twice as high as the marriage rate in this country, and as between 1935 and 1938 it increased by 25 per cent. The increase in money wage rates, on an index basis, between 1935 and 1938 in New Zealand, was 27 per cent.; and the increase in retail prices during the same period, on an index basis, was 13 per cent. All these figures clearly indicate that one would like the application of these conditions to Ireland, notwithstanding the gloomy picture of New Zealand which Deputy Childers erroneously quoted for us this evening.

Are they paying for it?

We have the privilege of paying for things here and we do not get them. That is the difference. They pay in New Zealand and get. Here we pay and do not get.

Is there not another explanation?

We will have chatter from the Minister afterwards. I want to direct the attention of the Taoiseach to conditions which ought to concern him as head of the Government. The outstanding matter to which I want to direct attention is the very serious position of our unemployment problem, and the apparent complete inability on the part of the Government to evolve any scheme which is calculated, not merely to solve the problem, but even to diminish its present gigantic proportions. As evidence of the fact that unemployment is not merely a passing problem, it is only necessary to go back a few years to find the extent of it, to observe its continuance, and the manner in which it persists in remaining with us. According to Government statistics there were in February, 1937, 91,000 persons registered as unemployed at the employment exchanges; in February, 1938, 106,000; in February, 1939, 105,000; and on the 11th of April last, 107,000. About February last those registered as unemployed numbered 105,000 persons, and of these 38,000 persons were employed in the notorious rotational schemes, getting work for three or four days. Probably half of the 38,000 got wages for only three days' work. In spite of seven years of Fianna Fáil government we have now an unemployment problem of well over 100,000 persons, and the most the Government can offer to that large mass is employment on rotational schemes for three or four days per week at a low rate of wages and under intolerably degrading conditions.

That is not by any means a full picture of the poverty that exists in this country to-day. According to Government statistics, 80,000 persons were in receipt of home assistance in December last, and, I am quite sure, from reports which have since appeared in the Press, that the numbers have not diminished. There are 80,000 persons eking out a miserable existence on home assistance, and well over 100,000 persons satisfying the rigorous test regarding unemployment at the exchanges. We have before us two pictures of poverty and misery for which the Government is unable to find any solution. The position would even be worse were it not for the fact that Britain has embarked on a large-scale armament scheme, and is to-day vigorously and feverishly organising her armaments output. As a result of the British policy in that connection, tens of thousands of citizens who, if they remained here would be unemployed, are going to Britain to try to find there the work which is not available for them here. In the ten years from 1926 to 1936 we exported 166,000 people to Britain. This small country, with a population of 3,000,000, exported to Britain 166,000 persons in that period. In fact, statistics will show that for every three persons who died during these years, we exported one to Britain to find work, and there is no indication in the Government's industrial or agricultural programme that it has any notion in the world what it will do to stop that appalling drain on the manhood and womanhood of the country. In the same period, between 1926 and 1936, the excess of births over deaths amounted to 163,000, so that what we did during those ten years we did more vigorously during the last few years of that decade, and gave to Britain not merely the entire natural increase in the population, but we added between 3,000 and 4,000 people over the natural increase. One looks in vain for the slightest indication that the Government realises what an appalling drain there is on our manhood and womanhood, and on the vitality of this country, by permitting a situation of that kind to continue. The drain is going on, and the Celt is going more rapidly to Britain than ever before. One has only to go to the harbours from which boats sail to Britain to see the type of people who are leaving every day in the week in order to find employment there that they cannot get here.

In the rural areas a problem that, in my view, is of very grave concern to the nation is the very considerable decline in population. The Minister for Industry and Commerce recently committed himself to the declaration that it did not matter if the population were leaving the rural areas and going to the towns and the cities. A well-known Bishop, realising not merely the moral side of the question, but observing very critically the economic repercussions, promptly pointed out that anybody that made a statement of that kind was really living in a fool's paradise. One has only to go through the rural areas to witness the conditions that exist in respect to decline of the population. One has only to look at the official statistics to see that not merely is there a drift from the rural areas to the towns and cities, but there is still more of a drift from the cities and towns to Britain in search of employment which cannot be got here. I should like the Taoiseach, who is head of the Government that is responsible for permitting such conditions to continue, to indicate on this Vote what he proposes to do to remedy the situation. If we pass from unemployment, from emigration, and from the falling population, particularly in the rural areas, in order to ascertain what is normally regarded as an indication of the virility and progressive nature of the nation, namely, the marriage rate, we get from official sources statistics which are terrifying in their implication, so far as safeguarding the nation is concerned. According to these statistics there are 460,000 males between the ages of 25 and 50 years, and 250,000 of these are single, representing 54 per cent. They are compelled, in the main, by economic necessity to remain single. The plight of agriculture is appallingly portrayed in the statistics applicable to that industry. In the agricultural areas 82 per cent. of males between 25 and 35 are unmarried, and when one contemplates the plight of the farming community, with understocked holdings, inability to purchase seeds and manures, low prices for produce compared with the high cost of living, one can foresee not only a continuance of such unsatisfactory conditions, but an intensification of them.

These are serious aspects of our national life to-day. They are an indication that the nation is sick. These are external abscesses, and they indicate that, within the nation, the scheme of organisation is far from healthy. When you have a veritable state of unemployment within the State itself, when you have all the destitution that is revealed by the gigantic home assistance figures, when you have that appalling tale of what misery is exacted from our people, and added to that the fact that the tide of emigration outwards is rivalled only by the rising cost of living within the country, one can get some real picture of what they are suffering to-day.

The Government, by their general policy, by their unwillingness to regulate or control prices in an effective way, have permitted a situation to develop whereby it is harder than ever for the ordinary people to purchase the necessities of life. In November, 1933, the cost-of-living index figure was 156. In November, 1938, it had risen to 176, an increase of 20 points in the five years. I said before, and the truth of it is so obvious that it is scarcely necessary to say it again, that the Government have no plan whatever for dealing with the unemployment problem, no plan whatever for taking off the employment exchanges the tens of thousands of people who are forced to go there in order to get a miserable pittance under our Unemployment Assistance Acts. In fact, developments in the past 12 months have all indicated that the Government have good reason to feel uneasy at the position of our industrial development and the position of our unemployment problem.

Deputy Childers talked about the success of the economic war. This nation was not defended by the Government Party alone during the economic war and it is far too early for us to pat ourselves on the back and be satisfied with the industrial sections of the London Agreement. Every manufacturer in this country has expressed concern that the effect of the London Agreement will be to afford a lesser measure of protection to our industries and that the result of the investigation which is being carried out by the Prices Commission may well mean a substantial contraction in employment in Irish industries. The contraction has already started. I have here some figures indicating the number of persons insured in each of the years from 1930 to 1938 under the Unemployment Insurance Acts. The increase in 1931 was 12,000; in 1932, 20,000; in 1933, 45,000; in 1934, 21,000; in 1935, 19,000; in 1936, 12,000; in 1937, 17,000, and in 1938, only 5,000. That means that less insurance books were exchanged in October last than in any period since the Department of Industry and Commerce was established here.

The London Agreement was confirmed by an Act of this House and approved by the country.

Is the Chair making any ruling, or is the Minister for Finance the successor to the Chairman?

The Committee is not discussing the London Agreement. I take it the portion the Deputy is referring to—some of the sections—is quite in order. The Agreement, per se, must not be a matter for discussion.

I do not want to discuss it. All I want to point out to the Taoiseach, in case he does not know it, is that as a result of the Agreement there has been a substantial contraction in employment by reason of the fact that the British manufacturer can get our tariffs reviewed and this House is bound to accept the award of the tribunal on the application made, in the first instance, by the British manufacturer. I mention that to emphasise that an already serious unemployment position will become still more serious as a result of the consequences which will flow from the industrial sections of that agreement.

In the good old days, when the Taoiseach was in Opposition, we used to have speeches from him on the subject of unemployment. The Taoiseach was then a kind of economic Messiah. He had all kinds of schemes for solving the unemployment problem. In fact, he believed that the solution of the problem here was easier than in any other country. If one is entitled to say that the Taoiseach was then speaking seriously and sincerely, the measure of his guilt and responsibility in the matter becomes all the greater. Here is an extract from one of the Taoiseach's speeches. Speaking in this House, he said:—

"The cure for unemployment lies in supplying ourselves with manufactured goods which at the present moment we needlessly import.... The solution of unemployment is easier in this country at the present moment than it is in any other country facing the problem."

When the Taoiseach was in Opposition we had that statement.

The Taoiseach had a plan for solving the unemployment problem and, after seven years' application of the plan we now have, according to unemployment figures taken on the 11th April last, 107,000 people unemployed and we have people going to Great Britain at the rate of 30,000 a year in order to get away from the plan and the consequences of the plan. In the same debate the Taoiseach worked out for the House the cost of unemployment to the nation. After intimating that there were 60,000 unemployed in the country, he said:—

"These 60,000 people if they were employed and distributed even in the present proportions between the agricultural and the manufacturing industries, would produce yearly something like £6,750,000 worth of wealth. So that our loss by the continuance of these people unemployed, the gross economic loss, the loss to the community in deprivation of wealth is something like £6,750,000 per year."

The Taoiseach was then concerned with this appalling loss of £6,750,000 per year because 60,000 people were unemployed at that time. Between the date on which that statement was made and the present time the cost-of-living index figure has increased by approximately 14 per cent. and the number of unemployed has gone up from 60,000 to 107,000. If we adjust the higher cost of living to the larger number of unemployed, and take the Taoiseach's method of calculation, we find that the loss to the nation to-day is not the £6,750,000 which the Taoiseach deplored, but it is no less than £13,500,000. It was a grave loss to the nation to lose £6,750,000 when the Taoiseach was in Opposition, but it is apparently a matter of the most blissful indifference that we are losing to-day, on the Taoiseach's own basis, no less than £13,500,000.

You did not multiply it on the basis of 66 to 1.

It is not my calculation.

Just for old acquaintance sake, I thought we might do that.

Is it the last thing in annoyance or effrontery to ask the Taoiseach what he means to do about solving a problem which was so easy of solution when he was in Opposition?

There is no harm in asking.

Is it possible, by making the most humble approach to the Taoiseach, and undertaking not to say one word in reply to anything he might say, to ask him what he intends to do in the way of solving a problem which, in 1931, he said was easier of solution in this country than in any other country in the world? When the Taoiseach used to be on the hustings, campaigning in the past, before 1932, I think he went on record in Westport as saying that he would solve the unemployment problem within the present system and, if he did not, he would solve it outside the system.

The Taoiseach came into the House subsequently and, with all the responsibility of office, told us that, if the problem could not be solved within the system, it would have to be solved outside the system. Then, of course, we had the Taoiseach quoting these sartorial examples of what his economic policy was going to be: that he would not stand for a policy of silk shirts, but that, if necessary, it would be a policy of hair shirts for the mass of the people. Well, there are very few silk shirts circulating among the working-class people or among the unemployed people who attend at the labour exchanges. In so far as the latter are concerned, it is not even hair shirts that they have to be content with, but porcupine shirts.

Bad as the economic situation is, the worst feature of it is that the Government seem not to be able to put forward a plan to deal with the problem. During the discussion on a motion submitted by members of this Party in the House recently, Deputy Flinn, who is supposed to be in charge of the question of unemployment, or employment —or whatever you may care to call it, at his hands—said that the problem to-day was not a problem of getting money, but a problem of trying to find work to do. Did anybody ever hear a more irresponsible statement than that, outside a lunatic asylum? He said that the problem was to find work to do. And that in a country where the social amenities are as backward, in many respects, as any in the Balkan States; a country where the national estate is poorly kept and scandalously underdeveloped and where so many people are denied the ordinary social amenities which are the hallmark of ordinary progress in Europe. Deputy Flinn, however, says that it is not a problem of getting money, but of getting work. Is that the Government view on this question of unemployment? Will the Taoiseach accept the view that that is the only difficulty now —the difficulty of getting work—and that there is no difficulty in getting money? There are 6,000 or 7,000 building-trade workers idle in this State to-day. They are idle in Dublin, Cork, and in every other city and large town in the country, not because there is no work available, but because the municipal authorities concerned cannot get the money to enable the houses to be built. Unless the Taoiseach takes a keener interest in that problem he is going to find that, in this city in particular, by December next a very serious situation will arise in consequence of the complete close down of the municipal housing schemes in this city through inability, apparently, to get money except by paying the ransom which is being demanded by the lenders of money and which ransom is going to compel the tenants to pay an exorbitant rent for the new houses.

There is never any difficulty, of course, in getting any money that we want for armaments. We increased the Army Estimate this year very substantially, and now we are embarking on an air raid precautions scheme——

And do not know anything about the scheme.

—and do not know the extent of the scheme or of its cost, nor have we got any explanation from the Minister as to what the scheme is. Without the slightest difficulty, however, five and a half million pounds can be raised, seemingly, for fresh armaments. There is no shortage of money there. When you ask for money for armaments, it can be got, but when you ask for money for the provision of work, or when you ask for money to be provided in order to enable Christian rates of unemployment assistance benefit to be paid to unemployed people, then there is no money available. The larder is always full when the advocate of armaments knocks there, but when the unemployed people ask for money in order to provide them with a decent amount of sustenance during a period of involuntary idleness, they are told that there is no money for them.

Not so long ago, the House enacted a Constitution, and one of the declarations in that Constitution was that the Government, or the State, by its efforts, would endeavour to ensure that everybody would be able to provide for his domestic needs and to discharge his responsibilities to those who depended upon him. The Government Party and the Government Press organ told us that this was a very Christian Constitution, enshrining everything that was good, virtuous and Christian, and that there was going to be breathed and sprayed all over the nation a new spirit of Christianity towards everybody and, in particular, towards the unemployed people. Let us see how it is working out, and let us test the application of the Constitution to the unemployed people in this country. It is all right to have flowery phrases in constitutions—written or printed constitutions, which are kept in cupboards or book-cases—but when you come to test the value of a constitution it is not the elegant phrasing or the terse terminology that is used that matters: it is what it means in regard to a decent standard of life for the people who have to live under that constitution. Under our Unemployment Assistance Acts we give a man, a wife, and six children, if he lives in a town with a population of less than 7,000, 14/- per week. If he has five children, six children, or ten children, we give him 14/- a week. Let us assume that he has a wife and six children. That is 14/- a week for eight people, which is very much less than 2/- per day, and if you work it out on a meal basis, you will find that, with all the talk of the Christian Constitution and the Government's Christian social policy, all we give that man is a penny for a meal, a penny for a meal for his wife, and a penny for a meal for his children. That is the Government's Christian social policy. There is the silk shirt policy or the hair shirt policy, or whatever you wish to call it.

The fact is, the Government have no industrial policy whatever. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, at one time, believed that it was only necessary to let him get at the unemployment problem in order to be assured of its speedy solution. We were told of the plan that he and his Party had under which 100,000 people were going to be employed, and furthermore, after a stricter scrutiny, he led us to understand that the only danger of that scheme being sabotaged was that you could not possibly get enough people here in the country to do the work that would be available as a result of his policy, and that it would be necessary to have a comb-out of the cities and towns of America in order to bring back our people there to help to work out this famous plan. At that time we were going to bring them back from America, and we have now reached such a stage of perfection with that plan that we cannot stop them going to England much less beg them to come back from America.

I want to say to the Taoiseach that I do not think his Ministers can deal with this problem. I do not think it is being handled properly. I do not think anybody is thinking nationally about this problem. I think they are thinking departmentally about this and every other problem. There is nobody thinking nationally. Nobody is making any effort to plan a co-ordinated industrial and agricultural policy.

The House was asked recently to devote its time to a Bill dealing with town planning. That may be an estimable pastime. It may be a very desirable thing to do, but there does not seem to be very much sense in planning the disposition of furniture in a house when the roof is on fire. We are proceeding to pass Bills dealing with town planning, desirable though they may be in their own way, while we do nothing whatever in the way of national planning. We plan buildings in towns and cities but we do nothing whatever towards planning a national economic structure which, in the long run, will give to our people more security, more safeguards and freedom from the poverty and misery which many thousands of them endure to-day.

On other occasions here I asked the Taoiseach—and I make another appeal to him now—to try to create some machinery whereby somebody with responsibility, energy, brains and intelligence will survey the country's requirements, ascertain the extent of our poverty, the extent of our unemployment, the extent of our under-employment, the potentialities of the nation and what schemes of industrial development and agricultural stimulation are likely to yield the nation the quickest and the best possible results. Nobody is doing that to-day. Nobody is thinking on those lines. It is essential that thought should be given to a subject of that kind if we are ever to get out of the bog of misery and poverty in which tens of thousands of our people are compelled to toil to-day. I hope the Taoiseach will no longer treat this question of unemployment merely as a departmental matter. I fear that it is being dealt with as a departmental matter. I feel that there is no adequate appreciation of the fact that this problem has been with us so long. The tendency is to say that it is no worse in 1939 than it was in 1938, that it is keeping steady and not increasing. According to the Taoiseach when he was in opposition, it should not exist at all. It is existing in spite of him and continuing in spite of him. The continuance of the problem is accompanied by indescribable misery and privation for a very large number of our people. In time of war, in time of emergency or of anticipated danger, we will mobilise all the resources of our people to defend the country against attack. Why cannot we mobilise all our resources to-day to deal with the unemployment problem because it represents to the people of this country an even greater menace than an enemy at a distance. While we do nothing whatever to grapple with the menace of unemployment, which entails hunger, destitution, a weakened and debilitated nation physically, we can get quite alarmed and raise all the money necessary for a war that may never come or a menace that may in fact never reach us.

I hope the Taoiseach will get back to some of the radicalism of other years and do some of the things he indicated in 1932 he would do without the system if he could not do it within the system. In any case, the Taoiseach owes it to the House and even to himself to tell us why, if unemployment could be solved more easily in this country than in any other country, it has not been done after he has been seven years in office.

There is another matter to which I want to refer on this Estimate and that is the position of our citizens in Great Britain. The Taoiseach rightly protested—and when he did so he represented the viewpoint of the whole nation—against our people in Britain being made liable for military service there under the British Military Service Act. But the British Government has apparently taken the view that, notwithstanding the alleged co-equality to which Deputy Dillon made reference earlier this evening, we cannot as a mother country give to our people a separate citizenship and separate nationality. The British Government has taken the view that our citizens are also British citizens and that, as British citizens in the opinion of the British Government, they are liable for military service in Britain. Of course, if the British can get away with that contention we ought never to have passed or need never have passed the Citizenship and Nationality Act. That Act was designed to confer on our people a separate citizenship and separate nationality. Yet, the British, notwithstanding the fact that we, positively, by legislation, conferred that right upon our citizens, intend to dispute our right to do it and to deem our people here and in Great Britain British subjects for the purpose of their conscription laws. The Taoiseach has said that the British action in that regard was a breach of international usage and at variance with the Hague Convention. I think the Taoiseach did right to make a protest of that kind to the British, but it is not sufficient to leave the protest where it is, particularly as our people in Britain of the military age prescribed by the British Bill are now being called up for service in the British Army, even though they are Irish citizens and even though we by legislation have conferred Irish citizenship and Irish nationality on them.

I would like, therefore, to ask the Taoiseach what further action he proposes to take in this connection? Has any further representation been made to the British Government on the subject, or has the Taoiseach given consideration to the question of endeavouring to find a tribunal, either through the machinery of the League of Nations or otherwise, by which he can get our viewpoint vindicated in view of the fact that, in his opinion, and in the opinion of well-known international jurists, the British attitude in that matter is in conflict with international usage and with the Hague Convention? Or is it merely intended to leave the matter there and to allow our people of 20 to 21 years of age in Britain to be conscripted into the British Army? While it is 20 to 21 this year, it may be from 20 to 30 before the year is out, and it may be from 20 to 40 even before the year is out. We are not fighting to-day on the narrow issue of conscripting our people of between 20 and 21 years of age. If Britain is involved in a war, we may be faced with a situation where every single Irishman in Britain may, under the British contention, be dragooned into the Army to fight in a war in which he probably has no interest whatever. I would like, therefore, that the Taoiseach should give us some indication as to his further proposals in that regard, so that we may be in a position to ascertain what those further steps are, and whether he is going to resist by every means available to him the British contention that they can confer citizenship on our people even though we have conferred a different citizenship and a different nationality on them. This whole question of the Citizenship and Nationality Act deserves much more attention than apparently it has received so far. If one is to judge by Press reports, it is being availed of very largely by all kinds of foreigners to secure naturalisation.

The daily papers constantly report that citizens with unpronounceable names have been naturalised as Irish citizens. Is that the only purpose for which we passed the Act, and has it no more significance for us than that? Now, in the recent discussion in the British House of Commons on this question of conscription and its applicability to Irish citizens there, when the Act was passed by this House and a discussion on this debate ensued in the British House of Commons, it was then contended by British Ministers that, notwithstanding the provisions of the Act, Irishmen still possessed the status of British citizens. That has all kinds of dangerous complications for us in war time. I would like to know from the Taoiseach whether the Government have taken any steps to acquaint other Governments of the fact that our people are no longer British citizens under our nationality laws?

When Europe was in a ferment last year—last September—over Munich, when armies were marching in Europe and the danger of a conflagration was very close at hand, certain seamen left the port of Dublin in an Irish registered vessel but flowing the British red ensign; and, as it looked that they might get to Hamburg at a time when Germany had declared war on Britain over the events in Czecho-Slovakia, the Secretary of the Seamen's Union tried to ascertain from the Government what was their position if they got to Hamburg after Germany had declared war on Britain. He could not get any satisfactory explanation as to the status of the Irish seamen on an Irish-owned and Irish-registered vessel flowing the British ensign. If there were a Norwegian or a Swede on that boat and the boat docked at Hamburg and Germany had declared war on Britain, the Norwegian or the Swede would have been repatriated—would have been sent back to his own country. Under the interpretation that our people are British subjects, our people stood in danger of being arrested when the ship docked at Hamburg and of being interned there as if they were citizens of a country at war with Germany, even though we might have made no declaration of war on Germany.

We have been appointing Ministers to various countries. We appointed a Minister to Italy a short time ago, though the cost of maintaining the service there is more than Italy buys in goods in 12 months. We did it, at all events; and I would like to know did we ask, as a condition of accrediting our representative to the King of Italy and Emperor of the forcibly annexed Ethiopia, that he would have to recognise that representative there and our people in time of war as separate Irish citizens, with a different and distinct nationality from British nationality or British citizenship. Has any effort been made at all to bring notice of the Act formally before the various Governments in Europe with which we are likely to be involved in a conflict in the event of Britain going to war with those countries; and has any effort been made to extract from those Governments an assurance that they recognise our citizens as Irish citizens, and that no declaration in the British Parliament can possibly deprive our people of that separate citizenship and separate nationality? Or, is the position to be that the Citizenship and Nationality Act is to be allowed to fall into disuse? Are Bills to be passed through this House as a form of window-dressing, to be talked about and regarded as one of the folklore things that we did a few years ago? Are we going to accept the British conception of our position as British subjects? I think the Taoiseach should take an early opportunity to tell the House what his views are in that regard. I would like, in particular, to know whether, when we are appointing representatives to other countries and receiving representatives from those countries here, any endeavour has been made to extract from them an acceptance of the position that our people are not British citizens and that statements in the British House of Commons do not make them so. The Taoiseach owes a statement on that issue to the House, and it is very important that it should be made now, well in advance of any complicating international situation which may make it less possible to remedy whatever misunderstandings or misinterpretations exist now.

These are some of the views which I wanted to express on this Estimate. I think it is not often that we get the Taoiseach in the House, and it is very desirable that he should know from members of the House other than the members of his own Party, the problems that concern the country. It is very desirable, above all, that, as head of the Government, he should know the heavy responsibility which devolves upon him. It is very desirable that he should know—no matter what his Ministers or supporters may tell him—that the economic position of the country is alarming, that the industrial position is far from satisfactory, that employment is decreasing, that industrial production has decreased and will decrease more, that the agricultural position in the country was never worse during the past ten years than it is to-day, that farmers are finding it extremely difficult to carry on and that thousands of young agricultural labourers who ought to be able to find employment in a well organised agricultural country are fleeing the land and trying to find employment in Britain. These are factors for which the country and the Taoiseach are responsible. We ought to be able to have a declaration as to whether he is going to allow this state of affairs to drift, as Deputy Childers advised him to do—to drift on as it is— or whether he is going to take steps in accordance with his earlier declarations to solve the unemployment problem in the easy way which he contemplated in 1931, and whether he is going to apply himself to an effective solution of many other problems which press with such rigour on our people to day.

This debate, I think, should create a nation-wide impression. It is one of the most significant debates that I have listened to since I came into this House—significant in two particulars. Firstly, this is one of the very few occasions in the course of the year where the head of the Government has an opportunity within the Parliament of the country to announce and elaborate and explain his policy on all-important matters. For the first time, as far as I know, we have the Vote for the head of the Government introduced by the head of the Government, like the passing of a vote of condolence, in complete silence. The Taoiseach is as noisy as the rest on public platforms outside of this House in shouting about his policy and his intentions, but on the appropriate occasion when money is being asked for and there is a specially arranged opportunity to tell the Parliament and the nation what his policy is, we have spectacular silence.

In that respect it is a remarkable debate; but perhaps it is even more remarkable by virtue of the fact that it is the first time I have seen complete and absolute unanimity within this Parliament. We have heard spokesmen of all Parties, including the Government Party, join in together in the course of this debate—united only in condemnation of the Government's policy, of the evils flowing from it, or of the absence of policy.

I think it is due to Deputy Childers to congratulate him on the particularly courageous speech which he made here to-day. Certainly he is not open to the accusation of having made his speech in any Party spirit. His speech was delivered in a sincere and detached, impartial way. The net point in his speech was to give the Government 12 months to mend its ways, to give up its nonsense, to quit folly, and to get on to a road of sound policy. That, coming from a member of the Government Party, is certainly rather historical, and I am glad that speech was delivered on an occasion when the head of the Government was present, because I think there is a lot too much business of a kind being done in this House without any attention from the head of the Government; and without falling over myself in confidence in the head of the Government, I think that if he were present when Bills are introduced by some of his Ministers it would become as clear to him as it is to us that there is not, in many cases, serious attention or close study being given in advance to measures introduced here.

We had a rather humiliating exhibition last week when we had a Bill of a rather novel kind for this country, of immense possibilities with regard to cost and certainly a type of Bill that would create a lot of mental disturbance in the country, namely, the A.R.P. Bill, introduced by a Minister who quite obviously had scarcely read it and was not in a position to answer, or make an attempt to answer, any reasonable questions put to him. I put it to the Taoiseach that if we are to support a Bill of that kind, everyone of us is on the defensive when he goes down to his constituents. I deplore the fact that nine out of every ten people in the country regard all this A.R.P. business as so much nonsense, and I stated that I belong to the 10 per cent. who do not regard it as nonsense, but, in supporting a Bill of that kind, when I, and any other Deputy, go down to our constituents, we are asked what the approximate cost of the Bill will be and when we reply: "I do not know", we are asked: "Why did you not ask the Minister", to which we must reply: "The Minister would not answer.""To what extent is the Bill going to affect your constituency?—I do not know." We are asked: "Why did you not ask the Minister?" and we have to reply "We asked the Minister and he would not answer."

I am availing of the presence of the Taoiseach to protest against that type of discourtesy to the House. That Department has been characterised by one type of major blunder after another during recent years, by calculated discourtesy and offensiveness, not only to people inside this House who disagree with the policy, but to everybody outside who ventures to have a slight difference of opinion with the head of that Department. Certain allowances can be made for a Minister who is not able to grasp the details of the legislation he introduces, but no allowance can be made for a Minister who deliberately refuses to give the House information, when he is asking the House to pass a Bill which is going to cost the country dear. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-day.
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