Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Feb 1940

Vol. 78 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 52—Agriculture.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £369,053 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1940, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Talmhaidheachta agus seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin, maraon le hIldeontaisí-i-gCabhair.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £369,053 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1940, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, and of certain Services administered by that Office, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

There are two large items in this Estimate which I shall deal with firstly. One is the fertiliser scheme and the other is in connection with butter. The fertiliser scheme first came into operation on the 1st September, 1938. The expenditure by the Department in respect of the first season, up to 30th June last, was £84,960. The quantity of fertilisers distributed was 183,000 tons. The amount to be provided for the current season —20th October, 1939, to 30th June, 1940 —is £130,000, and it is anticipated that £50,000 of this sum will be spent by 31st March next. The scheme is one to enable farmers to purchase manures at reduced prices. It applies to fertilisers manufactured by members of the Irish Fertiliser Manufacturing Association having their factories in this country and relates to the following fertilisers: superphosphate, potassic superphosphate and compound and complete fertilisers manufactured by members of the association. A reduction at the rate of 10/- per ton will be allowed on all these fertilisers supplied by the association on and after 20th October, 1939, and this reduction is to be passed on in its entirety by retail merchants and co-operative societies to their farmer customers.

Sub-head M (7), under which I am asking the Dáil for £302,000, relates to butter. The guaranteed value of creamery butter for the season 1939-40 was fixed at a minimum of 134/- net f.o.r., with the promise at the time to the trade that that value would be increased so far as available funds and possible increase of export value would permit. This value was maintained for the months of April, May and June. For the months of July and August a production allowance of 8/- per cwt. was paid, bringing the net f.o.r. value for these months to 142/- per cwt. For September, October and November, the production allowance was increased to 14/- per cwt., bringing the net f.o.r. value for these months to 148/-. For the months of December to March, inclusive, a production allowance of 15/- per cwt. has been or will be paid, and as the levy of 11/- per cwt. has been suspended for those months, the net f.o.r. return will be 160/- per cwt. Production allowances pro rata, according to equivalent butter fat content, were paid during the months July to November on cheese, dried milk and condensed milk. The average net f.o.r. value for the whole year will work out at 142/7 per cwt. The average price paid to all creameries was 5.66d. per gallon, with the skimmed milk returned.

Mr. Dillon

The impossible figure. Does the Minister remember making a speech at Wexford in which he demonstrated that the figure could not possibly be reached?

Dr. Ryan

Not at the world price of butter at the time. The total butter production for the year will be approximately 720,000 cwts., which is a drop of 30,000 to 40,000 cwts. below normal. The expenditure on this sub-head will be offset by a reduction of the same amount in the expenditure on sub-head A of the Vote for Export Subsidies. I should explain that a great part of the money paid out to the creameries was by way of production allowance rather than export bounty and, therefore, could not be paid out of the Export Bounty Fund, so that there is a saving on the Export Bounty Vote more than equivalent to the amount paid under this sub-head.

Well now, to go back to the Supplementary Estimate and take the headings in order: after those two large amounts, there is an amount of £2,600, for travelling expenses, for which I am asking the Dáil to vote. That is due to the fact that we had to take on a number of inspectors under the schemes for increased food production or the Compulsory Tillage Scheme. In order to carry out that order, 36 inspectors had been loaned to the Department by the Land Commission, and it is the practice, when an officer is seconded from one Department to another, that his salary is paid by the Department which loans him, but that his expenses are paid by the Department to which he is loaned. In this case, it is estimated that the travelling and subsistence expenses of these people will amount to something like £2,100, but it is expected that the travelling expenses of the general staff of the Department will exceed the amount provided in the original Estimate by £500.

Mr. Belton

What are they inspecting?

Dr. Ryan

They are carrying out the duties that are necessary to be carried out in connection with the matter. The next sub-heads are—F (1) Agricultural Schools and Farms, and F (3) Veterinary College. There is an increase asked for in these particular cases, and this excess expenditure is largely due to the purchase of reserve stocks of feeding stuffs, fertilisers, and, in the case of the Veterinary College, chemicals, drugs and appliances.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps I might be permitted to interrupt the Minister on a matter of detail. Surely, he does not maintain that, in the Munster Institute, Cork, we have extra stores to the value stated?

Dr. Ryan

We have. As a matter of fact, they have a very big stock of feeding stuffs. In the first place, they did not sell what they had expected to sell, and, in the second place, they have a larger stock than they would expect to have, normally, at this time of the year. The next item is sub-head I (1)— Special Agricultural, etc., Schemes in Congested Districts—£2,000. This includes £925 for travelling expenses and £1,075 for loans for the erection of glasshouses for the growing of tomatoes. The loans are £60 for houses with 400 square feet floor-space, and £80 for houses with 600 square feet floor-space. They are repayable in ten annual instalments with interest at 5 per cent. per annum. Since the scheme was started in 1934/35, 68 loans have been granted, of which 50 have been £80 loans. Sub-head I (3) deals with Land Reclamation, etc., Schemes— £2,000. The amount provided in the original Estimate for the salaries and expenses of the staff engaged in the supervision of these schemes proved inadequate. More were taken on than had been anticipated. Sub-head I (4), dealing with instruction in connection with Special Land Settlement Scheme amounts to £400. This is to provide the salary and expenses of an assistant agricultural overseer employed to give instruction to migrants from the Gaeltacht, who are being settled on lands in County Meath and neighbouring counties. Sub-head M (1) is to provide for the administrative expenses of the Pigs and Bacon Export Committee incurred in connection with the issue of licences for the export of pigs and bacon. It is estimated that the receipts from licences will counterbalance this expenditure. The next item is sub-head M (4)—Loans and Grants for Agricultural Purposes, etc. —£3,000. It is expected that the increased food production schemes will give rise to a demand for more agricultural implements. As a matter of fact, the number of applications is a good deal higher than it was at this time last year. Sub-head M (5) has to do with the improvement of the creamery industry—£13,500. This is to provide for the purchase of the business and the property of the Berrings Co-operative Agricultural and Dairy Society, Ltd., County Cork, and of the business and property of Scariff Co-operative Creamery, Ltd., and it also provides for the conversion of Cahirciveen separating station into a central creamery, and the provision of a new travelling creamery.

Mr. Belton

How is that paying?

Dr. Ryan

It is paying better than I anticipated.

Mr. Belton

Is the loss much?

Dr. Ryan

No, they have not a loss. I did say, when introducing the Estimate of £40,000 for the development of the whole area in that part of the country, that I thought we would lose £40,000, but now I think that we may not lose it.

Mr. Belton

That was the capital expenditure?

Dr. Ryan

Yes. I thought that it was possible we might lose it, but it now appears that it may be paid back.

Mr. Belton

It may pay interest on the money?

Dr. Ryan

Well, it looks like that. I do not say that it is so, but it looks as if the concern were doing well and may be able to pay it. The next item is sub-head M (8)—Importation of Seed Wheat, £12,420. This represents the cost of unsold stocks of Diamante wheat which had been imported by seed merchants under a guarantee against loss given by the Department. At this time last year we thought that there might be a serious shortage of certain varieties of spring wheat seeds, and we arranged with two importers here to bring in special quantities of Diamante wheat, guaranteeing them against a loss on any quantities that they had left unsold. A certain quantity was imported by these merchants under the guarantee, accordingly, and the amount unsold at the end of the season was taken over by the Department for the purpose of storage until the beginning of the next sowing season. There was, however, a certain amount of deterioration in the wheat taken over as seed, and the net loss to the Department would be something over £800.

Mr. Hughes

I should like to ask the Minister whether he is following the same procedure as last year.

Dr. Ryan

I do not think there will be any necessity to follow the same procedure this year, but we are following the same procedure in the case of flax.

Mr. Belton

Will the supply of Spring wheat seed be adequate?

Dr. Ryan

I am afraid not. It is a bit better, but I am afraid that it is not adequate. Subhead M 9—Agricultural Production, Consultative Council —£200—is concerned with the Agricultural Production Consultative Council that was established by an order made on 31st October, 1939, for the purpose of advising and assisting the Minister in relation to matters affecting agricultural production, and sub-head M 10 deals with the travelling expenses of Trade Representatives—£150. This is to provide for the travelling and subsistence expenses of a number of persons who were invited to advise the Minister on matters relating to the marketing of agricultural produce. During our various negotiations with the British Government, or the Departments of the British Government that were concerned, with regard to the marketing of cattle, pigs, and so on, we asked, on a number of occasions, representatives of the trades concerned to accompany the people engaged in these negotiations to London, and the expenses of these people were paid. With regard to sub-head O 1—Agricultural Produce (Eggs) Act, 1939—£3,850 —this sum is required for the payment of the salaries and expenses of additional temporary junior marketing inspectors whose employment was necessitated by the coming into operation of the recent Act. That was forecasted when the Bill was going through the Dáil. In connection with the next item, sub-head O 8—Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Acts—£1,100—up to 12 men have been employed for varying periods since the end of September, 1939, staining imported seed wheat. That may not be necessary any longer, because, at one period, a year or two ago, it paid merchants to bring in seed wheat and sell it afterwards as native-grown seed since there was a profit to be made on it, but I do not think that will be the case now.

Mr. Belton

I do not think you would be able to import it now in any case.

Dr. Ryan

We would get plenty of winter seed wheat.

Mr. Dillon

The picture of the "boys" solemnly dyeing the wheat is beyond praise.

Dr. Ryan

Well, it is not done in this country alone, but in many other countries. However, Deputy Dillon can enjoy any joke about wheat.

A Deputy

Or bread.

Dr. Ryan

I should say that the importers pay a contribution of 3d. per barrel in respect of wheat stained and that this is more than sufficient to cover the cost of staining. The contributions by importers in respect of the staining of imported seed wheat would amount to about £2,000.

Mr. Dillon

Might I ask the Minister seriously whether it would have been more expensive to dress this wheat with a preparation like Ceresan?

Dr. Ryan

It would be more expensive when you consider the vast quantities coming in.

Mr. Belton

Did that not suggest itself to the Department?

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy may be very sure that every good suggestion was considered. Straight off, I think it would be absolutely impracticable. If you had a boatload of seed wheat, that must be dealt with on the quayside. If it gets beyond the quayside——

Mr. Belton

Is it on the quays that it is dyed?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. O'Donovan

Why was it dyed this year? The imported wheat was much dearer than ours and there was no possibility of anybody making a profit on it.

Dr. Ryan

Up to Christmas it would have paid to bring in that seed wheat and sell it afterwards as home-grown.

Mr. O'Donovan

Our price was only 30/6 for the best, and what was brought in was 37/- or 38/- a barrel.

Dr. Ryan

Before Christmas it was much cheaper than that. There will be an additional expenditure under the allotments scheme. There is a considerable increase in the amount of land being used for allotments this season. There will also be a considerable increase in the quantity of seeds and manures and the number of implements used. My Department is concerned only with seeds, manures and implements. The Department of Local Government will have to deal with the acquisition of land.

Mr. Belton

Your Department provides the seeds and manures?

Dr. Ryan

To the unemployed they give free seeds and manures and the use of implements. With regard to the Flax Act, 1935, there is a Token Estimate. There will be no expenditure during the current financial year, but it is necessary to bring before the Dáil the matter which I have mentioned. We have given a guarantee to a co-operative society which imported a large quantity of flax seed that, if the flax seed is not used, the society will be recouped in respect of losses on a certain quantity over and above what it was prepared to bring in. As a matter of fact, there is no possibility of a loss, because I think we will get quite sufficient flax growers to take the seed from us.

Mr. Dillon

There is an immense shortage of flax seed for feeding purposes.

Dr. Ryan

At any rate, in connection with this flax seed there will not be a loss. I imagine our difficulty will be to get enough flax seed.

Mr. Belton

How widespread is the demand for flax seed?

Dr. Ryan

The demand is principally in the three Ulster counties. There is some demand in West Cork, but outside that there is very little demand.

Mr. Belton

If there is going to be a long war, does the Minister not think that it would be advisable to spread it?

Dr. Ryan

Not for this year.

Mr. Belton

Are you making provision for an increased supply of seed for next year?

Dr. Ryan

Yes. As a matter of fact, we intend as far as possible to grow some of our own pedigree seed for use next year.

Mr. Belton

You intend to raise it for seed?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. O'Donovan

Where have you the pedigree seed?

Dr. Ryan

We have a small quantity, not very much, but we mean to keep it almost completely for seeding purposes next year.

Mr. O'Donovan

Are you likely to have it in sufficient quantities to be able to use it commercially?

Dr. Ryan

We will have it in fair quantities. I might mention that the Department has arranged with the British Ministry of Supply that that Ministry will purchase the flax produced in Éire from the 1940 crop at an average of 20/- a stone. They will purchase the crop in the coming season, and we have undertaken to sell the complete crop to the British Ministry of Supply. It will be necessary at a later stage to make an order prohibiting the export of flax except under licence, and licences will be given for the export of flax only to the United Kingdom. Sub-head AA refers to a defalcation with regard to insurance stamps. I cannot say more at the moment about this because the matter is still under investigation.

With regard to Appropriations-in-Aid, there are additional receipts to the extent of £30,317. These include repayments to the extent of £2,000 from the Vote for Employment Schemes in respect of the cost of administering land reclamation schemes, etc. Then there are repayments of loans advanced to co-operative creamery societies, to the amount of £5,000. Under the Agricultural Produce (Eggs) Act the receipts from additional fees, etc., collectable under the Act come to £9,000. When the last Eggs Act was passed, the inspection became very much more exacting and we had to employ something like 27 new inspectors. The levy, which was up to that 1d. per case of eggs, was raised to 2d., so that the appropriation is increased.

The amount in the case of the Agricultural Produce (Cereals) Acts is £2,000. This is related to a contribution of 3d. per barrel by importers to cover the cost of staining seed wheat. The estimated receipts from licences for the export of pigs and bacon total £800. The Committee set up to deal with the export of pigs and bacon have a levy of 2d. on bacon and 2d. on live pigs. That is expected to bring in the £800. It is not intended to make a profit on this business, and it may be possible to lower that levy to 1d. The sale of seed wheat brings in £11,517. This has relation to the guarantee given to the importers last year.

There is an estimated deficiency in the receipts. The first is £2,000 in connection with the repayment of agricultural loans. This arises out of the type of loan given for implements or for any other purposes, and it appears very probable that there will be a shortage of £2,000. In connection with the Slaughter of Cattle and Sheep Act, there is £1,550 less than was anticipated. The amounts collected by way of levy in respect of cattle and sheep slaughtered came to £434,128. The total levy payable amounted to £469,988, leaving £35,860 due at the beginning of 1939-40. I am not sure what portion of that amount must be regarded as bad debts.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister was mentioning sub-head M 7—expenses in connection with the provision of butter for winter requirements—when I came in. I take it there is a substantial Appropriation-in-Aid in respect of that item?

Dr. Ryan

I explained that in the ordinary way the bounties payable to creameries for the production of butter would come out of the Export Bounty Fund, but, owing to fluctuations in price, it was necessary to give payment on production rather than by way of export bounty. The payment on production could not legally come out of the Export Bounty Fund. It is merely a transfer, and it is paid as a production allowance. When we come to the Export Bounty Vote you will find there is a saving there of £345,000, which is more than has been paid out in this way.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps the most important item dealt with in this Supplementary Estimate is that concerning seeds and manures for the coming season. To-day our attention was engaged on a Bill brought before the House by the Minister for Local Government to provide credit facilities for the farmers to enable them to purchase seeds and manures.

It at once became evident that what was present in the minds of Deputies on all sides of the House was that credits were no use unless the seeds and manures were on offer to purchase with the credits made available. I am in a position to say now that if the farmers of Roscommon go to the county council and get credits to purchase, and bring these credits in to me, I have not got the manures to give them, and I cannot get them. I think the Minister knows that.

I have here in my hand a letter from the County Tipperary, from a merchant who finds himself in precisely the same position. That merchant writes to a manure manufacturer, who replies to him as follows:

"With regard to further supplies, as we see that you have already taken delivery of your quota we regret that at present we are unable to give you a further quantity. You will appreciate that we have to make sure that all our regular buyers take their allotted quantities, and when each has been satisfied in this way we will then be in a position to see how we stand with regard to offering further supplies. You can, however, rest assured that we will keep in touch with you if further supplies become available."

The merchant in question writes to me to say: "We have not got a bag of manure in our store and our customers are in a bad way for same." Now, what is wrong with those customers is not that they are short of credits but that there is no manure to be purchased with the money that they are in a position to pay. I do not deny for a single moment that there are large numbers of farmers in this country who would gladly have availed of the credit facilities provided under the Bill introduced by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, but, when they have availed of them, what are they going to do?

Now, it would be bad enough—I direct the Minister's attention to this especially—if we only had to contend with the situation of the farmers who got credits from the county councils and were not able to convert these credits into manure, but if there is a limited supply of manures available and you expand artificially the credits available to purchase manures, then, inevitably, you are going to raise the price of seeds and manures to all consumers in this country because you will have three customers for each bag of superphosphates that there is to offer. The Minister may say that he will control the price of superphosphates. I do not know whether Deputies understand this or not: that price control must be operated to give the distributor or the manufacturer a certain margin of profit on each item that he sells. The artificial manure trade is a trade which is largely done for the purpose of keeping your customers. It is so competitive that there is little or no profit made upon it, but in order to oblige your customers, and to hold yourself out as a competitive merchant, you cut the price of artificial manures to an altogether uneconomic level of profit. You do not do that out of love of your customer. You do it in order to hold yourself out as a competitive merchant. You know that there is one item that all your customers are going to buy and that is superphosphate, and if you are not as cheap for that commodity as the cheapest person in the countryside, word will go out that yours is a dear shop, and if you are dear for superphosphate, you are dear for everything else.

The result of that is, speaking for my part of the country, that the average retail profit on 1 cwt. of superphosphate of lime is 3d. The manure is delivered to you at about £3 15s. That, I think, was the price last year. It is sold at 4/- per cwt. If the Minister's Department were to fix the price of manures it could not, in equity, impose on every merchant the obligation to sell super at a profit of 3d. per cwt., because it is obviously an uneconomic procedure, but so long as there is a scarcity of super, and three customers for each bag of super, if the Government fix the price, then every merchant is going to work at the Government fixed price, and the Government fixed price will have to show a margin of profit of at least 6d. or 8d. a bag, which means that you are going to increase the price of manure by about 10/- per ton on the whole community. That is what happened when you put a tariff on manures. You increased the price because you withdrew the element of competition in the case of the seller. You left three buyers for every bag of manure.

I put it to the Minister that to-day, above all other times, the urgent necessity is to remove all restrictions on every source of supply of artificial manures. We could buy manures from Belgium at present—I admit there would be difficulties about transport, but I believe these could be overcome; but we are prevented from getting those supplies of superphosphates from Belgium by a tariff of 20 per cent., and by the refusal of the Minister to pay the 10/- bounty on any superphosphate of lime that is imported from outside Éire. We could get supplies of superphosphates of lime from Great Britain, not large supplies, but I am convinced that those manufacturers who had been delivering superphosphate here in the past would, at least, give the importers who were dealing with them in the past a share of their previous purchases. But we cannot get them because the Minister will not give the 10/- subsidy on those imports. Deputies will realise, of course, at once that everything we are getting at the present time, at least 90 per cent. of what we are getting, we are getting by the grace of the British Government. If the British Ministry of Supplies did not give us the things we want, then we would have to go without, to the extent of 80 or 90 per cent., of the supplies that we are bringing in here. Deputies should not deceive themselves into the belief that we are bringing in all that we require. If the British Government closed down all our sterling credits and forbade us to use them in the markets of the world, we would be absolutely paralysed for supplies. We could not get any at all. If Deputies imagine that without the goodwill of the British Ministry of Supplies we could get a share of the artificial manures that we had been getting heretofore, they are under a complete misapprehension. We are getting at the present time what we are getting because the British Ministry of Supplies and the British Treasury permit us to get it. If they forbade it we could get nothing. We are prevented from getting supplies of superphosphate of lime from Belgium by a tariff, and by the refusal of the Minister to give the bounty, and we are prevented from getting supplies of superphosphate from Great Britain because the Minister refuses to give the bounty, although there is no tariff. We are left in the hands of the strictly-controlled Irish manure ring.

What supplies they have managed to get I do not know, but to judge from a letter I have just read to the House, they themselves believe that there is going to be a very material shortage and I, as a manure merchant, am informed by the ring that all I will get is bag for bag what I got last year. Now, if that is so, and if we are going to increase the tillage immensely, it means there is going to be an acute shortage of artificial manures in the spring. Surely, with that prospect before us, the Minister will be able to insist that his colleague, the Minister for Finance, will take off all the tariff, and that he on his part will say that he will give the bounty of 10/- per ton on any manure of standard quality, no matter whence it comes. If he fails to do that now, the blame for the shortage, the blame for the failure to produce, the blame for not filling the gap that this emergency may create in our agricultural output, is the Minister's responsibility. He has been warned in time. I wrote to his Department a month ago, pointing out the vital urgency of announcing his readiness to give the 10/- bounty on English manures, and I got no satisfaction. He has had full notice of this problem, and if he closes his eyes the responsibility for the shortage is his, and his alone.

These considerations apply also in the matter of agricultural machinery. There is provision in this Estimate to facilitate loans for agricultural machinery. Every bit of such machinery bought in this country is carrying an immense tariff—all the increased cost that is levied on it as a result of its being protected by tariff. I wonder if Deputies in this House—particularly those Deputies who come from the eastern parts of Ireland—understand the measure of the hardship that that tariff is on the small farmer of Western Ireland. Do people here who are in the habit of thinking of tillage in terms of tractors and three-furrow ploughs and disc harrows know what it means to till land with a láidhe and a harrowpin, or with a harrowpin and a donkey-plough?

Mr. Belton

They do; and they have done it.

Mr. Dillon

If they did, would the Deputy not agree with me that they should seek to facilitate those in the West?

Mr. Corry

On a point of order, is Deputy Dillon addressing Deputy Belton or the House?

Mr. Dillon

I am not addressing any individual Deputy. I am addressing the intelligent members of this House and in doing so it becomes necessary to orient my remarks in a certain direction.

Mr. Corry

On a point of order, I suggest that Deputy Dillon is out of order. The Deputy is supposed to address the Chair.

Mr. Belton

Well, let him turn to address the unintelligent Deputies of the House.

Mr. Dillon

I most earnestly put it to the Minister that to ask people in the poorer parts of Ireland intensively to increase tillage and at the same time to block them from getting efficient farm implements is a most imprudent and reckless contradiction I would like to bring home to Deputies, if I could, the difficulties of the man who cannot afford to buy an efficient harrow. If Deputies in this House would realise the complete change in a person's life which is brought about by the substitution of a modern spring harrow for an old-fashioned small, wooden harrow furnished with harrow-pins by the blacksmith, they would appreciate the measure of the injustice of denying to the poorer farmers of this country access to efficient implements. I venture to say that one stripe of a good spring harrow is as effective as 12 of a make-shift harrow such as 90 per cent. of the small farmers west of the Shannon have to use. I do not suppose that Deputy Allen has ever seen land ploughed either with a láidhe or a donkey-plough.

Mr. Allen

I have travelled all the West of Ireland.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy took good care to clear out of it as quickly as he could and go to the County Wexford.

Mr. Allen

I know all about the system of farming in the West.

Mr. Dillon

If that is so, the Deputy very wisely eschewed any proposal to make his living there, and he was a wise man.

Mr. Allen

The spring harrows made in this country are most efficient.

Mr. Dillon

If one can afford to pay for them. I want to see the farmers here given access to the spring harrows of the world, so that they can get the cheapest and best: if we are making the cheapest and best in this country, people will buy the ones that are made here. Why should the poorer farmers in the West of Ireland be condemned to sweat and toil like beasts of burden in order that manufacturers of farm machinery in this country should be afforded an opportunity of charging more for machinery to the farmers in the West of Ireland than those farmers could buy it for in Britain and elsewhere?

Mr. Corry

Why should they want to get them anywhere? Surely the Deputy is not advocating that they should either plough or harrow?

Mr. Dillon

I have seen—as the Minister, no doubt, has seen—farmers who used to cut their meadows and oats with the scythe, and sometimes with a sickle, turn over to a mowing machine. I do not know if Deputies here realise the difference that that makes in the life of a small farmer, but it is quite astonishing—it means the transition from something approximating to slavery into something approximating to a tolerable and happy life. Yet the farmers of this country are at the present time constrained to pay £4 or £5 tax on a mowing machine. Some of them buy Irish machines; some of them pay the tax; others go on using the scythe, as they cannot afford to do otherwise.

Is it reasonable to insist on these people doing an increased tillage when they are confronted with the necessity of completing it with the inefficient implements which are thrust upon them by the tariffs and charges imposed on cheap, efficient machinery that would otherwise be available from sources abroad? I say it is not. I think the continued taxation of the raw materials and equipment of the agricultural industry is an outrage, and I believe that all these credit schemes are a futility so long as they are promoted side by side with a policy designed to raise the cost of seeds, to raise the cost of manures, of machinery, of everything else the farmer has to use. In this particular time, all these abuses are exasperating, through the difficulty of supply, and—so far as Dáil Eireann is concerned—no reasonable or effective measures have been taken by the Government to correct or overcome it.

There are certain matters arising out of this Supplementary Estimate to which the Minister made reference in his introductory remarks, the first being the idea that the Minister is satisfied about the quality of coldstored butter. I know enough about the dairying industry to realise how highly technical it is and to appreciate that, unless one is versed in it, it is hard to understand the day to day difficulties there are. Butter should not be sold as Irish creamery butter— cold-stored or fresh—which is not good butter. I have bought from Irish creameries in the last couple of months butter that was not good; it was just plain bad; it smelt. I was told by the creameries from which I bought it that it was not their butter; that it was cold storage butter which they had received from some central bureau, the exact nature of which I do not know.

Mr. Belton

Could that be traced to the maker?

Mr. Dillon

I suppose it could, but I imagine there is some kind of central depôt that the Government maintains through the dairying industry for the cold storage of butter against the winter shortage, but certainly the cold storage butter coming out of that central depôt reflects no credit on it, and I think the Minister ought to look into the matter. Perhaps the Minister would say whether he has heard any other complaint of that nature?

Dr. Ryan

No.

Mr. Dillon

I will give the Minister the name of the creamery from which I got the supplies, and perhaps they can be traced. I must say this, that the creamery in question, when producing its own butter, produces an excellent article, so excellent that I felt it good business to go a long way out of my normal course of supply in order to get their butter, but this cold stored stuff seemed to me to be deplorable, and if it were going abroad as an Irish product it would damage the trade. Deputy Curran says that his experience has been that the butter was not up to the mark. I think that is a fairer description. I do not say the butter is unfit for human consumption, but it has a strong smell and a strong taste, and would ordinarily be described as tainted.

Dr. Ryan

There is a registered number on every box.

Mr. Dillon

I will give the Minister the number of the creamery.

Dr. Ryan

All I want is the registered number on the box. Then we will know what creamery it came from in the beginning.

Mr. Dillon

I buy it in rolls, so I do not get the original box. It is taken out and packed in the creamery which supplies me. In this Supplementary Estimate there is provision in regard to pigs. I saw a notice published in the paper to-day that Messrs. Henry Denny and Son will not take fat pigs at all. The bacon manufacturers of this country have made a good thing out of making up bacon for the last four or five years, and it ill becomes them to be getting up on their ear now. They are well gilded with the unjust profits which they knocked out of the farmers and consumers of this country for the last four years, and if they are giving any back answers or making difficulties for the pig-producing trade in this country there is not a body of citizens in Ireland should get a shorter knock than the bacon curers of this country. The sub-head to which I refer is M (1). I can assure the Minister that, if he wants to deal with those gentlemen drastically and effectively, very few voices will be raised to demur from any action he deems it necessary to take. In the meantime we ought to consider gravely the interests of the pig producers, and, if those heavy pigs are going to be refused by the bacon factories in Ireland, is the Minister going to take any steps to ensure that they will be expeditiously exported alive to the British market?

Dr. Ryan

The strange thing is that the export licences have not been used. Not more than half of them have been used in the last couple of months.

Mr. Dillon

I can imagine that, because it not infrequently happens that the normal trade would not absorb the heavy pigs in Great Britain at this time of the year. But I would put this to the Minister: is it not nearly time he took his courage in his hands and went to London, met the British Minister of Agriculture, and worked out with the British Minister of Agriculture a comprehensive scheme which could be based on a plan extending over five or ten years? The present situation is this, that we are sending to London excellent civil servants, who, when they go to London, meet excellent British civil servants. They discuss the matters at issue, and then they come to a point of difference. The British civil servant says to our civil servant: "Well, that is the limit of my instructions. I cannot go beyond that"; or perhaps the British civil servant says to our civil servant: "Can you meet us in this particular?" Whereupon, our civil servant is obliged to say: "I have gone to the limit of my instructions. I can go no further without referring the matter back to my Minister." By the time references back are made and adjustments are arrived at, not infrequently unsatisfactory settlements are made, because the difficulties of continual references back and the pressure of time have made it necessary to arrive at some kind of an agreement. If the Minister for Agriculture of Éire meets the Minister of Agriculture of Great Britain, and both approach the negotiation with full power from their respective Cabinets to reach agreements, no such difficulty could possibly arise, and if the negotiation tends to widen out into something larger than was at first anticipated there are full plenipotentiary powers on both sides to carry it through.

The pig industry is invaluable to this country. We ought to be able to capture an immense share of the British market. Why does not our Minister for Agriculture go to London to-morrow and say to the British Minister for Agriculture: "Look here, we are prepared to set out towards the objective of supplying all the pigs you want if you will undertake to ensure that at the end of this period of emergency you will continue to take the maximum production that we reach in the period of emergency. We cannot ask our people in Ireland to increase production indefinitely if at the end of the emergency they are to find themselves without any market for their pigs at all." We could not go to England and ask the industrialists there to build vast factories to supply some emergency demand we have, just as the United States manufacturers will not build vast factories, without adequate guarantees, to supply the industrial demands of England at the present time. It is not an unreasonable request; it is not a blackmailing request; it is not a threat. On the contrary, we can perfectly honestly say: "We are going to stimulate the production of pigs in any case, but if you want us to throw the whole weight of our organisation behind it you must give us that security, that at the end of the emergency we will not find ourselves with millions of pigs on our hands and nobody to buy them." I have not the slightest doubt that, if the Minister entered into a discussion of that kind with the British Minister, we could start now indefinitely expanding our pig production, growing barley here to feed the pigs, and developing a branch of our agricultural industry which would return immense profits to the community as a whole. Will the Minister consider that, and when he comes to reply, tell us what he proposes to do in connection with it.

I just want to mention one other point before the Taoiseach intervenes. I mentioned earlier to-day a special Liral flax seed for the farmers of County Monaghan. Would I be free to say to the farmers of County Monaghan that those who attach special importance to getting that Liral flax seed would be facilitated by the Minister through the local agricultural instructor? I think the Minister implied earlier to-day that he wanted to keep this seed for the purpose of propagating other seed?

Dr. Ryan

That is right.

Mr. Dillon

Would I be free to say to them that, if they are prepared to give an undertaking to the Minister to keep the seed, and to grow the crop in accordance with his conditions, applications from County Monaghan will be favourably considered?

Dr. Ryan

I should prefer not. We are considering two alternatives. One is to do it in that way; another is to get it all grown in one area away from where flax is grown for fibre, and I think that any advice I have got from the Department so far would incline me to the decision that it would be better to take an area for seed-growing alone.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy O'Donovan here has forgotten more about flax than I ever knew. I do not know the speed with which you can grow flax seed. I do not know whether flax is a crop which multiplies its seed as rapidly as other crops do, but I do know this, that the farmers of Monaghan, Donegal and, I think, North Louth, are the best flax-growers in all Ireland, with the exception, of course, of the farmers of West Cork.

Mr. O'Donovan

I am glad to hear you say that.

Mr. Dillon

And I do not think it would be fair to Donegal——

Dr. Ryan

There is another difficulty.

Mr. Dillon

If the Minister would allow me to finish. I do not think it would be fair to Donegal or the traditional flax-growers of the country to talk of getting this special seed grown elsewhere.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy will perhaps realise that in all this thing of pure-line seed production there is always the difficulty of cross fertilisation unless you have an area confined to it.

Mr. Dillon

I appreciate that, but certainly, with other crops, the Minister used to provide that you sowed some intervening thing like artichokes or something of that kind which shaded and protected the crop from cross fertilisation. That might not be sufficiently efficient in the case of flax. I do not know. But I would like if the Minister would bear in mind that those people, by their tradition as flaxgrowers, have a kind of pre-emptive claim on anything that is going in the matter of flax.

Dr. Ryan

Naturally, that was the first thing we considered, but I think the other thing is more advisable.

Mr. Dillon

I hope you are not going to take the growing of flax clean out of the traditional flax-growing counties.

Dr. Ryan

Not the crop.

Mr. Dillon

Where would the seed be grown—is it here in Glasnevin?

Dr. Ryan

No, but I think some distance away from where they grow the crop.

Progress reported.