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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Feb 1941

Vol. 81 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Barrow Drainage Rate—Motion.

I move the following motion which appears on the Order Paper in the names of Deputies Norton, O'Higgins, Davin and myself:—

That the Dáil is of opinion that the Government should make a grant out of the Central Fund sufficient to reduce the amount of the Special Barrow Drainage rate (as set out in the final award) by 75 per cent., and in view of the fact that no benefit whatever was conferred on many ratepayers who are required to pay the county at large charge, the charge should be remitted and that the collection of these rates be suspended pending such a grant.

Many years ago, before we had got a national Government in this country, representations were made to the British Government to carry out an arterial drainage scheme on the River Barrow. Away back in 1885 a Mr. Manning, an eminent British engineer of that time, made a scheme, while in the year 1889 a Mr. Gamble was associated with a scheme which was estimated to cost something over £800,000. In the year 1924 a deputation waited on the then Government and pressed on them the carrying out of a Barrow drainage scheme. In the following year, Professor Meyer Peter, one of the four experts invited here by the then Government to advise on the Shannon scheme, was asked to make a scheme for the drainage of the River Barrow. He examined the proposed scheme of Mr. Gamble and did not agree with it. He found that there was too much embankment and too little excavation, and prepared a very elaborate scheme himself for the drainage of the river at an estimated cost of £1,130,000. That was on the assumption that, during maximum floods, there was a flow of 486,000 cubic feet of water per minute. In 1926 a flood occurred in the river which appears to have been one of the greatest floods known in the river in recent years. A record of the flow was taken, and it was discovered that the flow of that flood was 268,000 cubic feet per minute. The professor's scheme was based on a flow of 486,000 cubic feet per minute, with the result that when it was discovered in 1926 that the flow was considerably less than the flow on which the Professor had based his scheme, Mr. Challoner Smith, an engineer in the Board of Works, amended Professor Meyer Peter's scheme and, taking into consideration the reduction in the flow, reduced the cost to £425,000. He modified the Professor's scheme to that extent.

A Bill was then introduced and passed in the Oireachtas in 1927, and the scheme was put into operation. The actual cost was £550,000. The State made a contribution of 50 per cent. of the actual cost. The other 50 per cent. was borne by a contribution from the three counties concerned: Kildare, Laoighis and Offaly, with a special rate on riparian owners along the marginal lands. The contribution by the various counties is set out in the final report. It amounted to £6,315, approximately 4/6 in the £ on the County Kildare; £6,697, approximately 6.26d. in the £ on the County of Laoighis; £5,591, approximately 5.34d. on the County Offaly.

I may say that a deputation has already waited on the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance and discussed this matter with him, but, as this motion has been on the Order Paper for a long time, we felt it was only right and proper that it should be discussed in this House. Deputies are probably aware that the Parliamentary Secretary has a hydrograph hanging up at the Library door showing the levels of the floods that have occurred on the river, pre-drainage and post-drainage periods. It definitely indicates that, within the capital amount expended, the scheme was a success. I do not propose to question the success of the scheme. The hydrograph shows that the level of the floods in the pre-drainage period, practically over the whole of the winter period, was above the critical line, and that immediately on the completion of the scheme in the post-drainage period— certainly in the first and second year of the post-drainage period—I think I am correct in saying that at no time did the floods reach the critical line. The peak floods show above this critical line. No one can question that because the curve is taken and drawn from daily readings. These daily readings were taken from certain bridges over the river at Clonbologue and other rivers, and are set out on the hydrograph. I do not question their accuracy. I believe they are correct.

I would like to describe the type of land affected. As I have said, the scheme was a success in so far as it affects the country generally. The floods that occurred there in the pre-drainage period inundated the whole countryside and blocked roads and traffic for a week or a fortnight at a time. Part of the country was completely isolated as a result of the tremendous floods, but no such thing has occurred in the post-drainage period. There has been no blocking of roads by heavy flooding and the country has benefited to that general extent. I do say that, taking the general configuration of the country and the fall available—it is very flat country for miles—to the engineers handling the scheme and taking the funds available within the limits of the capital sum placed at their disposal, I think the job was well done. Possibly, if more money had been made available, a better job would have been done. There might have been more sinkings and a better outfall got, but I do not question the success of the scheme from the general aspect. What I want to draw the attention of the House to is the quality of the land in that area, the charge on it and the question whether that charge is economic or not. The land along the Barrow valley and its tributaries consists mostly of coarse, rushy land of the poorest quality. A lot of it is cut-away bog and gorse, and large tracts are still subject to flooding. The floods do disappear more rapidly because of the drainage scheme, but I think that certain people down there have supplied the Parliamentary Secretary with photographs proving that floods do occur.

When that flooding disappears, the land, although not covered with water, is undoubtedly waterlogged, and in an unsuitable state for carrying stock of any sort. Apart altogether from its capacity to carry stock—I am speaking now of how it appears to me as a farmer—it is coarse, rushy land, and most of it in the drainage area has a very low degree of fertility. The herbage produced has a very low nutritive quality, and, in fact, has scarcely any feeding value at all, and, as I say, it is not capable of carrying stock. The Parliamentary Secretary knows that there are acres and acres of that coarse, rushy herbage cut for litter and auctioned, and it does not make more than 3/- to 5/- an acre. There is such a tremendous quantity of it available all over the country that there is no demand for it. There is too much of it available to make a price, and there is more than sufficient to meet the litter requirements of people.

I want the Parliamentary Secretary, in his reply, to deal closely with the quality of the soil and its economic value, whether the charge is economic or not, and, taking the quality of the herbage there, whether that soil can bear the present tillage. That is the kernel of our case, and I want the Parliamentary Secretary, if possible, to deal exclusively with that aspect. We have read of big arterial drainage schemes which have been great successes in other countries, but, in my opinion, where there have been successes, they invariably have been gained when drainage has been carried out on the lower reaches of a river. The reason they have been a success, and the land when drained is very fertile, is that, by reason of flooding over 100 years an alluvial deposit has been left there. That is the most fertile soil of all, and it has been carried down from the upper reaches and deposited in the lower reaches, giving fertility to the land.

In the case of the Barrow, the reverse occurs. I suggest that what takes place is erosion, and anything good and beneficial in the upper reaches of the river has been washed out and deposited on the lower reaches. I was reared on the lower reaches of the Barrow, and I know that the bog land on the lower reaches is very fertile. It produces meadows which give hay year after year, because of the alluvial deposit left there as a result of winter flooding. It is as good as a dressing of artificial manure. In the one case, you have erosion, with the result that anything good and fertile in the soil is washed out; in the other case, where land has been reclaimed on the lower reaches of a river in the other countries and where it has been a great success, it is due to the fact that reclamation has taken place on the lower reaches where this deposit has been left for many years, giving rich fertile land after drainage and reclamation. Hence, there is no analogy between the Barrow drainage and drainage in other countries. I submit that it would be on all fours with other schemes if you were reclaiming land on the lower reaches of the river which had had the beneficial effects of flooding and had that deposit left on it.

With regard to the economic charge, I propose to read for the House a few extracts from the Kildare County Council rate book for the year ended 31/3/'39. In the case of the holding of Edward Dempsey, Lackamore, Lackagh, the poor law valuation is £29; rates are £7 5s. 0d.; Barrow drainage rate £9 15s. 0d. The Barrow drainage rate in that case is higher than the poor rate. In the case of the holding of Mrs. A.M. Holmes, Monasterevan Bog, the poor law valuation is £5 15s. 0d. poor rate, £2 7s. 5d.; and Barrow drainage rate, £2 2s. 4d. In the case of the holding of W.J. Coonan, Old Grange, Monasterevan, the poor law valuation is £14 15s. 0d.; poor rate, £3 16s. 2d.; and Barrow drainage rate, £4 17s. 0d. Other cases are:— Patrick Weldon, Aughrim, Quinsboro —poor law valuation, £8 5s. 0d.; poor rate, £2 4s. 0d.; and Barrow drainage rate, £5 0s. 8d. That is, the Barrow drainage rate is more than double the poor rate. Patrick Kavanagh, Aughrim, Quinsboro'—poor law valuation £23; poor rate, £6 0s. 8d.; and Barrow drainage rate, £7 12s. 8d. John Caffrey, Grange, Monasterevan— poor law valuation, £25; poor rate, £7 4s. 7d.; and Barrow drainage rate £6 8s. 11d. Miss K. Lawler, Monasterevan Bog—poor law valuation, £2 15s. 0d.; poor rate, 16/10; and Barrow drainage rate, £3 10s. 1d.

That is a bad case.

There are many other such cases, but it is not necessary for me to cite them.

Would these be the total valuations of land owned by these people?

Yes. They are small holdings. I have here a letter addressed to His Lordship the Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin by the Taoiseach on this matter, and I desire to read a paragraph which is contained in that letter:—

"The actual value of the benefit derived directly by the lands affected was assessed by a capable and experienced land valuer, and was subsequently reviewed in accordance with the Act by an independent valuer, appointed by the Minister for Agriculture, whose recommendations were embodied in the final award which was issued on 31st March, 1938."

That date is important, and I wish to refer to it later.

"This award is conclusive and binding, and cannot be altered except by special legislation. The assessments vary from 6d. to 10/- per acre, with an average of 2/10 per acre, over the 43,520 acres included in the award. More than 90 per cent. of the land is assessed at less than 4/- per acre, the total annual value of the improvement being £6,218. It may be mentioned that the 1890 valuation of this same improvement was £9,800, approximately."

With regard to that, if the assessment represents the actually increased value of the land, then you are bestowing no favour at all on the owner. If you want to confer a benefit on him, the assessment should be less than the actually increased value of the land. Assuming the value of an acre of land is £5 and the State improves that by £3, if you charge the owner the full amount of the improvement-value, you leave him no benefit whatever. In any case, it must be obvious to the House from the cases which I have read that, from the point of view of the quality of the land, there is definite hardship. I, personally, believe that if you could do away with the flooding of the land— I think the Parliamentary Secretary will have to admit that flooding does occur—you would not improve the quality of the land. It is a poor type of land with no fertility. The type of herbage is not such that even a hungry beast would readily eat it. He, certainly, would not thrive on it and it is doubtful if he would exist on it. It has no thriving value from the point of view of stock.

When this Bill was introduced in 1927, Mr. Blythe, then Minister for Finance, speaking on the Second Reading, as reported in volume 19, column 615 of the Official Report, said:

"The position then is that the State undertakes to pay half of the cost of carrying out the scheme but, if the cost of carrying out the scheme should be a sum exceeding the £425,000 estimated, then the excess will be borne by the State."

From the paragraph of the letter from the Taoiseach to the Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin which I have read, it appears that the State is bearing only 50 per cent. of the actual cost. The cost did exceed £425,000 by the sum of £125,000 so that, according to the Minister for Finance at that time, that excess of £125,000 should have been borne by the State. The House was assured by the Minister for Finance that any excess of the estimated amount would be borne by the State.

What did the Minister say when the Bill was actually introduced?

I have quoted what he said. When the Parliamentary Secretary is replying, will he tell us whether or not that promise has been implemented in the final award? It appears to me, from the reports on which I can put my hand, that it has not been implemented.

What is the date of the Deputy's quotation?

31st March, 1927.

There was an amending Act in 1933.

And that varied it?

I think it did.

Why should that be so?

It is so.

I want to point out that your predecessors, who introduced the scheme which was completed in your time, had the intention of coming to the assistance of these people if the cost exceeded £425,000. Is the position now that these unfortunate people are to be mulcted for half that £125,000 by the amending Act of 1933?

I refer the Deputy to the debate on the Barrow Drainage Bill, 1933, volume 49, column 1159.

I refer the Parliamentary Secretary to the promise made in this House, by the responsible Minister at the time, on the 31st March, 1927. It is with that that I am concerned. I think that it was unfair and unjust to vary that in any way by a succeeding Act.

That Act was varied by authority of the Oireachtas in 1933.

We see the effect now that it has had on those people. We see it has imposed an uneconomic charge which they cannot bear. That is the position as I see it and that is our case. I submit that there is an obvious case, on the face of it, a prima facie case, for examination and consideration. Our case is that the lands which have to bear that drainage rate are now burdened with costs in excess of their value, and that the charge cannot be borne by those unfortunate people. In my opinion, considering the type of land many of them own, it is a miracle that they can exist at all without shouldering any charge. The House should realise that the charges imposed by the 1933 Act, it now appears, and not by the original Act, in some cases are double and in some cases more than treble the poor rate. One point that I forgot to make is that the poor rate, when the award was made three or four years ago, was made on charges that existed at that time, and since that time the poor rate has gone up considerably. I submit that the valuers did not take into account that the poor rate was an appreciating charge on those lands. There is a case, as I said before, for examination and consideration, and it is our duty to press the Parliamentary Secretary to have the matter further examined with a view to relieving many unfortunate people who are living on that land of those heavy and impossible charges. Certainly I do not envy their lot in attempting to live on such land as is in the Barrow Valley.

I second the motion. I feel at a slight disadvantage in making a case here because of the refusal of the Minister for Finance and his Parliamentary Secretary to publish the report of the Drainage Commission. I feel if we had at our disposal the report of the Drainage Commission which was handed over to the responsible Minister five or six months ago, we might have in that report many things which would support the case of those who are backing this motion. I regret therefore that the report of the Drainage Commission has not so far been published.

The motion which I am seconding here has been drafted and agreed to after several meetings between all the Deputies, representing all Parties, for the constituencies of Carlow-Kildare and Leix-Offaly and after a number of meetings had been held between the Deputies for those two constituencies and the members of the executive of the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association. The Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association was brought into existence as a result of the strong feeling of the farmers and the agitation which arose locally in connection with the fixing of excessive drainage charges on the farmers who own the land in the catchment area, which is a very wide area. I was present when the heads of the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association informed the Parliamentary Secretary some time ago that they spoke for no less than 3,000 farmers who live in the area that is affected by these heavy charges. Very shortly after, I was elected for the first time as a member of the constituent assembly which was set up in 1922. I was one of a very large number of people from the area of Leix and Offaly and Kildare who met the members of the Provisional Government at that period. They made a very strong case which had been unsuccessfully made on many previous occasions to the British Government in support of the demand for the drainage of the River Barrow. In 1923 I was invited, and I accepted the invitation, to act on a commission that was set up by the Minister for Industry and Commerce at the time, which was known as the Canals and Inland Waterways Commission and which, in its unanimous report, made certain recommendations in connection with the demand for the drainage of the River Barrow. I feel very proud to be still a member of this House and to have represented at that time portion of the constituency that is affected.

I want to say, as I have said at public meetings and at deputations, even at the recent deputation to the Parliamentary Secretary, of which I was a member, that I fully realise the wonderful work that has been done by the scheme carried out in the drainage of the River Barrow. It would be quite wrong—and I said so at a public meeting in connection with this matter—for anybody with any knowledge of the position in the catchment area previous to the drainage of this river to say that the Barrow drainage scheme has been a failure. Some people have been foolish enough to suggest that. I certainly could not listen, under any circumstances, to such a statement being made without making a protest. I travelled along the whole of the River Barrow when I was a member of the Canals and Inland Waterways Commission and got a fairly good look at the river in the very worst period of the year.

1923. Many times before I became a member of this House I travelled across Monasterevan Bridge on my way to and from Dublin, and I can well remember the long periods of flooding of that river prior to the carrying out of the drainage scheme. The long-period flooding, at any rate, has been removed, I hope for all time, so far as the Barrow river is concerned, but a case has been made—and I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will admit that a case has been made —that short-period flooding takes place on certain portions of the river with certain destructive effect to the value of the land which is flooded. Deputy Hughes has gone into the whole matter in detail and the strong case that I see has been made, and can be made, in favour of this motion is that, so far as the scheme affects a large acreage of land let by public auction, the income from the annual letting is much lower than the annual charge imposed by the ordinary award with regard to the payment of the money raised locally in connection with the scheme. Incidents of that kind, affecting a very large acreage of land, have been given to the Parliamentary Secretary. There is something there to be put right. I sympathise with that side of the case and with the position of farmers, whether they are small farmers or large farmers, who have to pay a higher annual charge for the work of draining the River Barrow than they can get by any means by way of income from the land upon which they have to pay this charge.

The case has been so fully discussed between the Parliamentary Secretary and the direct representatives of the farmers concerned that one does not know whether it is desirable to repeat here in the House what has been said elsewhere, but I assume that the Parliamentary Secretary will cover the ground very carefully in his reply. It has been suggested here, and it had previously been suggested in my hearing, that the water coming from the Clonsast Bog has in recent times helped to increase the flooding from the Barrow in that area. I think the Parliamentary Secretary has been furnished with evidence which has been supplied by an engineer who was selected by the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association, and who furnished a report in connection with a survey made by him over certain lands in the Barrow area, particularly in the Clonbologue area. I have a copy of the report which that engineer made to the executive of the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association. I think it was quoted, or that extracts from it were quoted, by a deputation which recently met the Parliamentary Secretary in connection with this matter. The concluding portion of that report, dated 18th October, 1940, reads as follows:

"I have had before me a copy of the records of the various readings as abstracted from the book kept by the Board of Works, showing the levels of the river at Clonbologue Bridge between 8th July, 1938 and 21st February, 1940, which indicated the various dates on which flooding took place, and I am convinced that when the level of the river rises to four feet seven inches on the gauge at Clonbologue Bridge large tracts of the adjoining land would be under water, and that, with the water rising inch by inch over this level, a considerable flooding to a very large extent must therefore take place, and which is shown on many photographs which I have before me."

That is an extract from the report furnished by Mr. Bruntz to the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association. That is the concluding sentence of one of the reports furnished after he had indicated the position in regard to the flooding over certain periods of certain farms in the Clonbologue area. I have personal knowledge that a good deal of periodical flooding does take place there. The Parliamentary Secretary will probably say that a good deal of that flooding could be avoided if the owners of the land concerned would pay more attention to the clearing of field drains. That statement has been challenged, as the Parliamentary Secretary knows, by some of the owners of the land concerned, and there is a difference of opinion, which I think cannot be settled, between those who contend one thing on behalf of the farmers who own the land in the Clonbologue area and the advisers of the Parliamentary Secretary.

I said that this motion was carefully worded after a number of meetings between Deputies representing all Parties in this House and the representatives of the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association. I recently received a notice—I presume my colleagues received the same notice—to attend a public meeting which was held in the Court House, Monasterevan, on 28th January, 1941. That meeting was summoned by the local leading light of the Fianna Fáil organisation. The notice reads as follows: "All officers of Fianna Fáil Cumainn and all members of county councils in the Barrow drainage district are earnestly requested to attend, as the business to be transacted is of vital importance to all ratepayers." That public meeting was held, and a resolution was proposed and seconded by representative local politicians and representatives of all Parties, supporting the claim made in the motion now before the House for consideration. I make reference to it because this particular conference or public meeting was summoned by the local leader of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Is his name given?

Deputy Hogan is well acquainted with the Fianna Fáil leader who was responsible for summoning this conference. The man concerned—I am sure to the Deputy's knowledge—was the mover of the resolution to which I have referred.

I think that statement is not correct.

I am sure the Irish Press, the Government organ, does not furnish incorrect reports of meetings. I do not know who christened that paper “The Truth in the News,” but I have not seen the accuracy of this particular report challenged.

Were you at that meeting?

I was not, and neither was the Deputy.

As it happens, I was present——

I notice the Deputy did not speak there.

I was not present at the meeting, but I was in Monasterevan when the meeting was in progress. There were only about five people there, including the leading light to whom you refer.

Deputy Hogan knows who moved the motion. It was seconded, I think, by the parish priest of Clonbologue.

That is correct.

Was the Deputy afraid to attend?

Oh, no; I was not afraid.

I would not accuse Deputy Hogan of being afraid to attend or to speak there.

From other angles. I was anxious to know who the leading light was.

Can the Deputy give me the names of the other three people who were present at this very representative meeting?

To be quite frank this is the first time I heard that there was such a small attendance. I had no reliable information as to who was present, but a summarised version of the proceedings at the meeting was published in the daily papers. I do not like to mention names here in the House, but Deputy Hogan and the Parliamentary Secretary can, I am sure, find out who was present at the meeting if there were only five people present.

Was the meeting convened by the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Organisation, or by a political organisation?

By the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association.

The meeting was called by representatives of the Barrow drainage organisation, with a footnote to the notice inviting all Fianna Fáil representatives to attend.

That is correct. The signature to the document is that of the secretary to the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association. The other portion is as I have read out.

I would be very interested to see that document. This is the first I have ever heard of it. It is the first time I heard that it existed. I got no such notification, and did not know that such a document existed, but I am aware that people took it upon themselves to speak with authority on a subject which they had no authority to speak on.

Here is the document; the Deputy can pass it to the Parliamentary Secretary if he wishes.

I think we will add it to the list of curiosities.

The Parliamentary Secretary can add it to the very big file which I am sure lies in the Board of Works in connection with the agitation for the drainage of the River Barrow, and the work which has been carried out there. Deputy Hughes has really covered the ground very fully, and I do not want to take up the time of the House in repeating what he has so effectively said. Deputy Hughes, as a farmer Deputy in this House, is in a far better position to speak with knowledge and authority and experience as to the value of the work on the land that has been reclaimed. He has very definitely stated that the reclaimed land is not capable under any circumstances of meeting the very high charge imposed as a result of the final award.

There is one important aspect of this motion and that is whether it is fair in existing circumstances, or in any circumstances, that ratepayers, farmers and others who live far away from the catchment area, should be called upon to pay this very high charge which, in the case of Laoighis and Offaly, is roughly 6d. in the £, for the carrying out of a work from which they have derived no benefit. There are many farmers in my constituency—and my colleagues know this to be true—who are already paying high drainage rates for the drainage of land in the immediate vicinity of their farms and, in addition, they are paying, roughly, 6d. in the £ to meet the charge imposed as a result of the carrying out of the Barrow drainage scheme. The farmers residing in the Barrow drainage area, so far as I know, are not paying any portion of the charge for the drainage of rivers 15 or 20 miles away. I would be surprised to learn that farmers residing in the catchment area around the Barrow are paying any charge for the drainage of the Nore. Farmers who reside in the Nore drainage area are paying a drainage rate for work carried out on their own land, in addition to paying for the drainage of the Barrow, and I consider that is quite unfair. There is a strong feeling amongst the ratepayers who own land far away from the Barrow area because they are called upon to pay this highly excessive charge. I hope the Government will give sympathetic consideration to the motion so ably moved by Deputy Hughes.

Deputy Hughes has given us a very detailed description of the work that has been done in connection with the drainage of the Barrow. I well remember the demands that were made years ago for the drainage of the Barrow, and I was quite familiar with the desperate conditions under which the people in many parts of the Barrow drainage area lived, particularly around Mountmellick, Monasterevan and Portarlington. I am aware that some 20 years before the work of draining the Barrow was commenced, hundreds of acres of land used to be submerged to a depth of several feet over a large portion of the year. I know that the county council had to raise the level of certain main and other roads in order to enable the people to use them. Some thousands of acres were flooded from November until April or May.

I am sure that every farmer in the Barrow drainage area was delighted when the good news came in 1926 that the actual work of drainage was about to be undertaken. The work commenced, everything went well, and gradually the flooding became less. Then they got down to the big obstacle at Monasterevan, the layers of rock that had been responsible for holding back millions of gallons of water, thus causing the heavy flooding which had been the subject of complaint for so many years. When this big obstacle was removed, the people were very pleased. I should like to say, in passing, that in my opinion the Barrow drainage scheme has not been completed in a real sense. A supplementary scheme is necessary, and, possibly, were it not for the existing war conditions, that scheme would now be in contemplation.

Such a supplementary scheme would alter very materially the position in regard to some thousands of acres in the Barrow catchment area by opening up arteries, which are now closed, into the different farmsteads. I refer to the many small tributaries of the Barrow. The idea would be to push them further afield than the Board of Works were capable of doing within the limits of the estimate for the main drainage scheme. I do not know why certain small tributaries were drained for a certain distance only. Of course, I realise that the engineers had to draw the line somewhere in order to work within their estimate. But the point is that, if the drainage work had been pushed a little further in some instances, it would have made all the difference to the Barrow drainage ratepayers, as they are now called.

I regard the Barrow drainage scheme, where it affects the area I know best, as being complete to the extent of about 70 per cent. I certainly must say deliberately that the Barrow drainage scheme, as such, has been a success. I often had the experience, within three miles of my home, of being unable to travel to the local town, Mountmellick. I have seen the Mountmellick streets under floods, and I have known people to leave their homes there, they were so badly affected by the flooding. I have known people in Portarlington who, at very short notice, had to leave their homes for a considerable length of time, so heavy was the flooding. I have seen hundreds of acres of good lands submerged for months. If the supplementary part of the scheme were carried out, I am aware that hundreds of acres of land could be made arable.

One good feature of the main drainage scheme is that it has made available many hundreds of acres of good arable land. As a farmer's son I claim to know a little about land. I have no hesitation in saying that lands that were fertile and arable, maybe 40 years ago, could be made just as fertile and arable again, but it may take some time to bring them back to that state. Until the extra work is done some of those lands cannot be dealt with. So far as the main Barrow drainage work is concerned, a lot of valuable land has been made available for the plough. Within the last two years I have seen fields that were formerly submerged for months bearing some of the finest crops of corn. I think there is no need to exaggerate the position. I am not accusing my colleague, Deputy Hughes, of doing so, but I think some of the people concerned, while they presented a fair case up to a point, only damaged that case by hopeless exaggeration. I have seen lands that it was claimed were not improved and not able to carry cattle, stocked with cattle at Christmas time and the cattle did not look too bad. I will say that those lands in pre-drainage days would definitely be submerged at that period of the year. I repeat that by making exaggerated statements of that kind they are only prejudicing the issue against the rightful case that could be made.

I agree with Deputy Hughes that, no matter what drainage is carried out, certain parts of the land concerned will never become really arable land, but I do think that a large acreage of what he classifies as rough, rushy land can be improved in the course of time. I believe that there are certain cases along the river that are really cases of hardship, but I cannot agree with the case made that every farmer along the river should come within the category of people who should benefit, because I immediately must switch over to what Deputy Davin said in his concluding remarks. I was a member of the Laoighis County Council at the time. During that period, county council drainage schemes were brought in, and I am aware that some of the farmers in Deputy Davin's end of the county, round Rathdowney and Durrow, in the improved areas of these particular rivers, Erkina, Gulley and Blackwater, are carrying as heavy rate on their lands as the Barrow drainage ratepayers are being asked to carry in their respective areas. At a later stage in our history, when peace is once more restored to the world, I hope that we shall all join in directing the attention which is now rightly focussed on the farming industry, to the continued development of agriculture and that all Parties will stand by the owners of land and help the development of the agricultural industry generally. If it does happen then, that drainage will be dealt with in a national way, and if it be possible to remit any part of the charges now imposed on the Barrow drainage ratepayers, I would say that the ratepayers in the Gulley, Erkina and Blackwater areas would be entitled equally with the Barrow drainage ratepayers to get some benefit. There are, undoubtedly, some cases of hardship up and down the river. I shall not dare to suggest the reason why the valuers did not see to that at the time, but I cannot agree that in the whole area there has not been far more improvement than some people are willing to admit. I think that it is unfair to deny that such improvement has taken place.

Deputy Hughes and Deputy Davin have said, and I agree with them, that the scheme was generally a success. Some of the fields which I referred to as being under water for a fortnight, three weeks or a month at a time, are very rarely flooded nowadays. The remarkable fact is that the flood disappears in 48 hours or less from the land. I know cases where, immediately after the drainage operations had concluded in the immediate vicinity the owners of certain farms were in a position to reclaiming land and putting is into cultivation. That being so, I think it is a mistake for people to state bluntly that they derive no benefit from these operations. As regards Deputy Hughes's view that certain lands are carrying a higher Barrow drainage rate than the ordinary rates imposed on the poor law valuation of the holdings concerned, that could cut both ways because in some of the cases I know the yearly improved value of the lands would certainly more than compensate them.

Does the Deputy suggest that it is three times the amount of the poor rate?

In some cases it is. I am speaking frankly and bluntly and I am prepared to meet these people anywhere. I am not trying to damage the case made by Deputy Hughes. I am stating what I know to be the exact truth.

I know the Deputy is familiar with the conditions in many of these areas.

The owners of these lands themselves will admit in private conversation that they are well pleased with the scheme and that they have no grievance as regards the charges imposed on them. I do know of other cases, and I have spoken to some farmers the tail-end of whose farms is of the type to which Deputy Hughes referred. Some of these farmers have been placed in a real difficulty by the fact that they have been presented with demands for the present heavy ordinary rates plus the Barrow drainage rate. The Barrow drainage rate in these cases may have been in arrears for a year or two and the joint demand presented to these people, after a period of distress brought about by the economic war conditions, imposes a heavy burden on them. If those rate demands were pressed home immediately it would do serious injury to these farmers. However, if you take the whole area you will find that many of the benefiting people have only small rates to pay. I remember that at the inception of the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Association the members of that association were prepared to pay a much lesser sum than they now are apparently prepared to pay. At a meeting in Monasterevan in the early days of the association I suggested that, without prejudicing the case one way or the other, the drainage ratepayers should at least contribute a rate that would cover maintenance charges because I thought the maintenance of the drainage was all-important.

I know ratepayers who, in 1939, had a grievance that the drainage work was deteriorating again because drainage maintenance had not been carried out. It was carried out in 1940 by the respective county councils and they are more than pleased with the result. I know one particular farm where, in the worst periods of rainfall in the last two or three months, there was no sign of water on the land. There might have been a little appearance of water here and there on fields after a night's rain, just as one would get on the highest upland, but the following day it had disappeared, and that land is never flooded now.

I do not know anything about the position regarding the amending Act of 1933. I do not remember if I was present when that Act was going through here but I do know that, at the time the amending Act was put through the House, there was a demand for amending legislation to enable the work to be pushed further afield than otherwise it could have been. Until Deputy Hughes made the statement I did not know that, at the time the Act was going through its Second Reading in this House, the then Minister had stated that anything in excess——

He did state that.

I am saying that I was not aware that he had stated that the State would bear any charges in excess of the £425,000 that Deputy Hughes mentioned. I leave that question to the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with. It is not for me. On the whole, I am satisfied that there are cases of hardship up and down the river. I am not satisfied that the Barrow drainage ratepayers' case is sound in every respect, as exaggerated claims have been made with which I certainly could not agree. As I have mentioned, fields which were flooded have been brought under tillage and I have seen cattle on land at Christmas where otherwise they would not get a lying space. Therefore, I would not be prepared to stand for this, even if there were general agreement in the House that some change should occur, particularly having seen and having been impressed by the graph presented to us by the Parliamentary Secretary and his officials of the Board of Works when we met them. I know that it impressed Deputies Hughes, Davin and others as well, and that it gave definite proof, which cannot be gainsaid, as to the advantages that have been conferred on the area by the Barrow Drainage Scheme. I could not agree that the flat demand for a 75 per cent. reduction could be equitably maintained. As a matter of fact, in some cases, I agree, farmers have got quite good land, and, speaking in a general way there would be many of those. In a few cases the type of land that these men have is where the flooding may have been removed and gradually some of it might be reclaimed. On the whole, I think we all must admit that the scheme has worked wonders in the Midlands and that it has conferred a great boon on the people at large. Even as regards the maintenance of roads, a road that is submerged, particularly in a bog area, and becomes water-logged, costs quite an appreciable sum to bring it back into good condition again.

Deputy Davin mentioned in his statement certain people taking it on themselves to speak for the organisation of which I am a member. As regards the notice that was sent to some of my colleagues, I was not aware that such a notice had been issued and did not receive any copy. Neither had certain people authority to speak as they did at certain meetings. They were speaking only for themselves and not for those for whom they alleged they were speaking. To that extent I must entirely dissociate myself from what was said then. I did not know my colleague Deputy Hogan had the benefit of being in the town where the meeting was held and we knew the size and extent of the meeting. I was not there and do not know anything on that point. Possibly I might have gone to Monasterevan had I received an invitation. I certainly can tell the secretary of the Barrow Drainage Association that he had not the proper authority in associating the Fianna Fáil Cumann with the letter of invitation which was sent out, so far as I know. At least, if it were so, I think that I would have been informed, so I am quite sure that the references that were made were made simply from a personal point of view and with no authority to speak on behalf of the people indicated.

I wish to support the motion so ably put forward by Deputies Hughes and Davin. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary, in view of the fact that the rates are tremendously high in the district at present, to realise that they cannot bear any further impost, especially as they are paying the county-at-large charge, which is substantial. The Government gave a grant for carrying out part of the work, but the counties for which it has been done also gave a substantial grant and the ratepayers of each county, of course, have to pay that grant. The Central Fund ought to pay the full amount. I will go even further than the 75 per cent.: the full charge should be remitted, especially in view of the fact that the rates are so high in the district and that the cost of collection would be so tremendous. The Government would be well advised to accept immediately the terms of the motion. If they give it that amount of sympathetic consideration which is expected from the Parliamentary Secretary, it will save all the land drainage schemes in the country.

I do not propose, Sir, to treat this motion as being in any way a hostile or controversial matter. I agree with what Deputy Hughes said: that having regard to the amount of time this motion has been on the Order Paper, having regard to the fact that there have been interviews and so on, and, above all, having regard to the publicity that has been given in connection with it, it was a proper and a desirable thing—I mean that it was a reasonable exercise of the rights of Deputies and a discharge to some extent of their duties —to put down a motion for the purpose of having the facts in this matter made clear, and that is the only way in which, in relation to Deputies in the House, I propose to treat it. I am aware, of course, of a great deal of the things that were said, but I want to say that in all the documents and evidence that have come to me of things that have been said down the country in this matter—some of them of the wildest improbability and exaggeration —as far as I know, no Deputy of any Party has committed himself to any of those things. I think that in some ways that is a very creditable thing to have happened, having regard to the fact that they were all subject to the pressure of an agitation of that kind, and I take it that Deputies, in putting down this motion and in speaking to it, have done so for the purpose of bringing out the facts; and in proposing a motion of this kind, they themselves have had to state the case for examination.

Now, I just propose to get rid, right away, of a couple of small matters. Deputy Hughes was under the impression that it is typical that the Barrow rate should exceed the poor rate. Well, you can always find cases of a different kind, and we shall remove that atmosphere of typicality by giving a few examples.

I do not wish to interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary, but I should like to be permitted to intervene for a moment. Possibly I did not convey what I intended. What I intended to convey was that it was a typical case of hardship.

Yes, but the difficulty is that an effort has been made to include the whole of the 43,000 acres in the Barrow scheme in that hardship. That is the difficulty, and that is the difficulty we will have to face. I am not involving any Deputy in anything of this kind, except in relation to statements which have been made here. We have a case of a Mr. W.A. Robinson, and for the three years 1937-38, 1938-39, and 1940-41, his poor rate was £256, £311, and £339, while his Barrow rate was £20 17s. 0d. in each of the three years. We have another case of Mr. R. Hipwell.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us what percentage of his land would benefit?

I do not know. I am only giving precisely the same kind of cases that have been given: that is to say, the poor rate as against the Barrow rate, and anyone can make any use of them he likes to make.

In the cases I cited, it is right in the centre of the Barrow drainage area, where the whole area is supposed to have benefited; but let us suppose your case is in the outer area, where only a small portion would have benefited, only that portion would have been assessed. That is a matter that should have been taken into account.

These are all cases of men who were assessed. I can give the particulars to the Deputy afterwards, and he can examine them. As I was saying, in the case of Mr. R. Hipwell his poor rate for the three years I mentioned was £42, £54 and £60, respectively, while his Barrow rate was £5 18s. In the case of Mr. J. E. Joly, his poor rate was £103, and his Barrow rate £27 15s. That is one of the typical cases that are put forward to us—given to us as an actual specimen case.

Is that all his land?

Apparently, yes. Then there is the case of a Mr. Odlum, whose poor rate was £41 13s., and whose Barrow rate was £9 15s. 8d.

In any case, could not the Parliamentary Secretary give the total amount of the benefited area in all those cases?

Yes, I shall look that up, and give it to the Deputy later. Now, Deputy Davin, in relation to the county-at-large charge, said that the farmers in the Barrow area were not paying any portion of the costs of other drainage works. That is not correct. They pay their share of the contributions made by their respective county councils to other drainage works in the counties in Offaly—namely, Cush, Clonlisk, Castlebernard, Garrycastle; Boleybeg, Cush, Erkina, Goul and Douglas, in Laoighis; and the Greise in Kildare.

I mentioned the Nore.

Yes, but in these cases they are paying their due share, and there are plenty of cases in which ratepayers are paying for more than one scheme, cases in which a man is being assessed upon one scheme directly, and, as a ratepayer, is paying for others.

I do not wish to interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary again, but this is important. I have a letter from Mr. Joly, dated December last, in which he says that he was paying £45 a year as a Barrow drainage charge.

Well, these are his Barrow drainage rates as we got them from the county council: £16 1s. 6d., £1 6s. 3d., £6 9s. 2d. and £3 18s. 7d., making a total of £27 15s. 6d. That is what the county council are trying to collect from Mr. Joly, apparently without success, for some years, I think.

I shall pass this letter over to the Parliamentary Secretary.

Yes, I should be glad if the Deputy would do so, and we will look into it. Now, I have told the House the spirit by which I would be guided, and I now propose to proceed in that spirit. I find that, in introducing the amended Act in 1933, on three separate occasions I warned the House that we were not attempting to produce a drainage scheme that would prevent flooding. I said that unless an apocryphal amount — I think I said £5,000,000 — but at any rate, unless an apocryphal amount were provided, neither I nor anybody else could put forward a drainage scheme which would prevent occasional flooding. Therefore, the House, in passing that Act, knew the position perfectly well. We had gone out of our way on three separate occasions, in a column and a half, to tell the House that we were not making a scheme for the purpose of preventing all flooding. I say at once, therefore, that no arterial drainage scheme is designed to prevent all flooding. The cost would be prohibitive. If we were to provide a scheme to deal with the abnormal flood, such as the one to which Deputy Hughes alluded — even down to Athy — it would cost another £350,000 or £400,000.

That money would have to be levied on the taxpayers and on the ratepayers. The amount of added benefit would be negligible. Arterial drainage is intended to deal with the water taken off the land by the internal farm drains provided by the occupiers. Generally speaking, the standard aimed at is to deal with such flooding as might normally be expected in winter time. A channel with a capacity to deal with such floods would also accommodate the flood water when it is likely to do most damage, in spring and harvest times. It is necessary to emphasise that a scheme of this character is not intended to eliminate all flooding, but will reduce the frequency and duration of floods on the land. The fact that no more than a substantial improvement in drainage conditions is the object of arterial drainage schemes undertaken in this country has always been pointed out in advance by the Board of Works. There are records in which we made it clear that we did not intend to put upon farmers and upon ratepayers a burden which would prevent all flooding.

The value of the direct benefit accruing is calculated on that basis, with a certain margin in favour of the owners, and on the undertaking that the occupiers of the land concerned will clean up the existing drains on their farms. Assessment or measurement of benefit due to arterial drainage does not assume that the occupiers will do the further work by way of thorough drainage and application of manures, which might be expected to be done by industrious farmers to reclaim fully the lands which had theretofore been incapable of being used to this full extent. The further value derivable from such proper husbandry is over and above that measurement and goes by way of direct profit to the occupier who takes the further advantage of the outfall provided by the arterial drainage channels.

What the arterial drainage engineer provides is an outfall and a channel into which water on the land can go. Farmers are expected to provide the ordinary farm drainage which will enable them to take advantage of that outfall. It is not calculated that they are to make any mole drainage or thorough drainage of an extensive kind. If they do so, they do it for their own benefit and get that benefit. So far as we know practically all the lands now the subject of occasional flooding on the Barrow scheme are used for grazing and meadowing purposes. There may be a small portion devoted to tillage but it would be extremely small. Grazing and meadowing land maintained in good husbandry, with occasional flooding during the winter months, or even in the spring, would suffer little injury, but damage could be done by flooding even of short duration, should it occur in summer, particularly in July when the hay has been cut and is still standing in cocks in the fields. I think all farmers will agree with that, that flooding for a day or so in the winter months is one of the things that may have to be put up with which will not in the ordinary course do any serious damage to the land.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that flooding has actually occurred there during the hay-making season when the hay was in cocks?

I will take those cases in a moment. I am aware that photographs appeared in two local newspapers in June of last year, and both photographs were marked in exactly the same way: "This is a photograph of recent flooding in the Barrow." A particular area was given. The photograph published was taken in the previous January, five months before that, but was published in the newspapers as if the flooding had taken place at the very critical time that Deputy Hughes and I referred to as dangerous. Both photographs in two different papers had precisely the same caption. I am deliberately taking that for a headline of the spirit, of the amount of veracity and fairness behind the whole of this propaganda.

I am not a party to that.

As far as I know, no Deputy is involved in any way in the exaggerated propaganda used about this question. It has been suggested that the channel in the Barrow should be three times as large. It could be made that big if it were to deal with these rare cataclysmic floods which are sometimes experienced. No sensible person would contemplate such a scheme. Its cost would be outrageous. The present scheme is designed to pass a flood 218,000 cubic feet per minute at Athy. Actually, little flooding will occur if the channels are properly maintained, until the discharge reaches 240,000 cubic feet per minute. The actual capacity of the Barrow to discharge water has been doubled over the whole length of the river. The highest flood ever recorded in Athy gave a flow of 365,000 cubic feet per minute. To provide capacity for this flood would entail about twice as much work being done between Athy and Monasterevan, and the cost would run to anything about £800,000, and that would not end it. It would also be necessary to provide an outfall downstream for the increased flow.

In designing a drainage scheme, the extent of the work should be related to the value of benefit to be got from that work. Looked at purely from the material point of view, a scheme is barely economic — barely worth while — when the annual value of that benefit is just enough to meet the annual charges both for repayment of the capital expended and maintenance of the work. When the value is less than that, it is uneconomic, and the account can only be balanced by taking into account such general gains as improvement in public health, sewerage facilities, roads, large bog development and the like. In every case of a drainage scheme of which I am aware, the State and the local authorities had to contribute for the imponderable advantage of such schemes. No scheme yet done or contemplated even moderately approaches the standard of being economic, in the sense of being able to pay capital charges and maintenance. What we have to do is to find in relation to a scheme the amount of water which we are able to take away, at a price which has some reasonable relation to the improved value. We have frankly to face the difficulty that in certain cases, a few days in the year, or perhaps for a considerable period in an exceptional year, flooding must take place.

Deputies will recollect that work on the Barrow started in 1926 in anticipation of the Act approved by the Dáil in 1927, which was extended and modified by the second Barrow Drainage Act passed in 1933. The scheme had a total actual capacity for arterial drainage designed to deal with 218,000 cubic feet per minute at Athy and cost £550,000 to improve 43,520 acres of land, to the extent of £6,218 per annum. The Acts provided for an annual expenditure of about £6,500 for maintenance, the responsibility for which was vested in a specially constituted Barrow Drainage Board. The finances of the scheme are what I want not merely to get at, but Deputies to remember. The scheme was financed as to 50 per cent. of the capital cost, and of the first 35 years maintenance cost by the taxpayers, with a similar contribution from the ratepayers in three counties, Leix, Offaly and Kildare. The ratepayers, however, were to be reimbursed by the benefited occupiers to the extent of the assessed improvement in the annual value of the lands, that is £6,218 per annum which is actually less than the cost of maintenance. This scheme was handed over in March, 1938, in workmanlike condition to the county councils, as provided in the Act. From that date the Government ceased to have any responsibility, and the local authority is responsible for its actual maintenance. This is the only drainage scheme in which the State or the local authority contributes to maintenance charges, and the combined contribution from the State and county councils towards capital cost represents the highest percentage grants given in any arterial drainage scheme.

Now there is a special financial procedure in relation to the Barrow which differs from the financial procedure which has been generally adopted in relation to drainage schemes, and with which the House is familiar. In normal drainage schemes under the 1925 Act, the State and the ratepayer pay only a percentage of the capital cost, the occupiers bearing the remainder, as well as the entire cost of maintenance. If we apply to the Barrow scheme a simple method of calculating the grants, so that the House will understand it, this is what emerges. If all concerned fulfil their present legal obligations the percentages and amounts of the State and local contributions to the capital cost on the Barrow are in effect as follows: the State pays 59½ per cent. of the capital cost, £327,250; the county councils pay 40½ per cent., £222,750; and the benefited occupiers pay nothing; that is, £550,000 to drain 43,500 acres of land on the Barrow, at a cost of £327,250 to the State, £222,750 to the ratepayer, and not one red cent to the benefited occupiers. They are not even asked to bear the total cost of maintaining that free gift of £550,000 which was made for their benefit by the State and the ratepayer.

Is there any other form of State activity, or any other business, or any other profession, or any other way in which men make their living, in which that degree of generosity is shown by the State and the ratepayer?

The representatives of the Barrow drainage organisation say they want to be reasonable, that they want to help the State in every way. Their proposal is, and the Deputies for the moment are furthering it, that they should pay one-fourth of the maintenance. The suggestion then is that drainage shall take place in this country for the benefit of the farming community, that under expert engineers, under thoroughly sound supervision, under a good plan, and with the most modern machinery, the State should spend money, as in this case they have spent £550,000, and, at the end of that time, those for whom that money is expended will turn round and say "The work you have done is not worth to us one penny of the capital cost and only under pressure are we prepared to admit that we ought to pay even one-fourth of the cost of maintaining that free gift in a condition in which we can continue to use it." If those who are responsible for making this plea are speaking fairly and honestly, then it is perfectly clear that the State should not engage in expenditure of this kind.

What is the justification for the State spending in the Barrow valley the money not merely of the ratepayers of Leix, Offaly and Kildare, but also the taxes of Donegal, Cork, Clare and Mayo on creating a piece of public work, of which, when it is completed, those for whom it is done say that it is not worth one penny of the capital cost and is barely worth one-fourth of the cost of maintaining it in a condition to work it? If, on the contrary, the position is that that is not a fair statement of the benefit that has been given, what is the position of the State if it continues to spend £550,000 for the benefit of the people who, when they have received the benefit, will not acknowledge it, and, when they have an opportunity to make greater use of it, turn their backs upon the obligation which they hold to the State, to themselves and to the ratepayers to make use of the benefit which the taxpayer and the ratepaper have taxed themselves to provide for their benefit?

I would not deal at the length with which I am going to deal, and with the care with which I am going to deal, with this particular question if it merely concerned the Barrow and the Barrow drainage ratepayers' agitation. I am dealing with it because the facts of it, the economics of it, and the philosophy of it seem to me to cut to the root of the whole future of drainage in this country. Not one single word has been said here to-night by Deputies and, as I have said before, to my knowledge not one single word has been said by them in the country, of a kind which seemed to me to be other than a reasonable contribution to the discussion. But that is not what is behind the agitation. It is with the other things that have been said that I must deal.

It has been said by a representative of the local organisation that the Barrow scheme as carried out is not a success; that while little or no benefit has been received by the vast majority of the landowners, the farmers are asked to pay the greater part of the cost, and the assessments on them are exorbitant; that thousands of acres in the Barrow district are under water; that large areas almost constantly flooded are assessed at 7/- an acre; that 10/- an acre is assessed for the next 35 years on poor, washed-out, rushy land which is still flooded after every heavy rainfall; that this is due in effect to the insufficiency of the Barrow scheme which provides a channel not one-third large enough; that the benefit charged for will accrue only when the drainage authorities actually provide the drains on and in the farms; that improvement has been overvalued, and has been assessed, not on the benefit, but in order to provide a specified contribution from farmers. It is stated that the land is inherently not worth having existing farm drains opened up, and that owing to the constant flooding the chief effect of opening up the farm drains will be to flood the land more quickly.

Coming down to particular cases we have the statement that there are farmers in the Edenderry district mulcted out of 4/- per acre for lands actually flooded as a result of this scheme, and that at least 100 farmers in the Cloncreen and Clonbologue areas have been ruined by the operation of the scheme. These are very different statements from the statements which have been made in this House. These are the sort of statements which have been propagandised and publicised on Press and platform. Is it any wonder that the owners of the 43,000 acres assessed under this scheme have taken the advice given to them at Monasterevan at a meeting of the representatives of committees of this organisation on the 2nd April, 1939, when Mr. R. Hipwell, now the chairman of that organisation, said to that meeting of representatives of the committees "The charges are exorbitant, and my advice to you is ‘don't pay'"?

He is a follower of your own party.

The Deputy had better discuss that with Deputy Davin.

He is a member of the Fianna Fáil Party I think.

As a result of the activities of this organisation, expressed through statements of the above character — I want to get this in — you get this: that out of a total sum of £18,535 due by the directly benefited Barrow occupiers to the county councils of Laoighis, Offaly and Kildare for three years drainage rates, £18,193 are outstanding and these county councils are out of pocket to that amount. In relation to a scheme which cost £550,000, which is contributed to as to 59½ per cent by the State and 40½ per cent. by the local authority — to which the benefited owners did not contribute one single penny in respect of that capital cost — of £18,535 which they owe for maintenance, they have handed over as an obligation to the ordinary ratepayer of Laoighis, Offaly and Kildare, £18,193, and apparently are prepared to continue, for every year as long as this is successful, to hand over the added obligation of, roughly speaking, £6,300.

I now propose to deal with the evidence which has been provided by this organisation, not because I have any respect for it whatever, but, I want to be quite frank and fair in the matter, I do so because it is their evidence, the evidence on which they choose to be judged.

Where did they give the evidence?

I will tell the Deputy that in a moment. The main contention is that these lands assessed are still almost constantly flooded; that little or no benefit has been received by the vast majority of landowners and that the improvement has been overvalued. In support of these contentions there has been produced a number of photographs and particulars of nine cases specially selected as being typical of the condition of which they complain. I propose to take first the evidence of the four photographs received by us on the 31st October, 1940. Some Deputies have already had the pleasure of seeing these curious exhibits.

The Parliamentary Secretary was down there shooting at that time.

I was down there wading over land that was wet and sodden while the river opposite was three feet below the level on which I was standing. Water was standing there because the good old drains, which were visible upon the land, were actually dead choked, and in one case blocked at the outlet to the river.

The Parliamentary Secretary cleared away all the snipe when he was down there.

All the places shown on these photographs were inspected by our engineers on the day after — on the 1st November, 1940. Two of these photographs represent land on a small branch drain over half a mile from the river and above the zone affected by the water levels in the river. On inspection on the 1st November, 1940, the lands were found to be perfectly dry. Somebody had cleaned out the drain, and all the water which was exhibited in the photograph had run away into the Barrow.

The area in the second picture was apparently completely covered with water. This turned out to be a pond in a depression. This pond is shown on the 1913 edition of the Ordnance Survey map as "Lingbawn Lough", apparently a lake within living memory. It could now be removed entirely by clearing the field drains. The pond was full when inspected on the 1st November, 1940, but the water level in the adjoining river was three feet below the level of the pond. The last photograph is even more remarkable. It also was practically covered with water. There were two or three interlacing lines of land. On examination this turned out to be a photograph of the new and of the old courses of the Figile river. There was not a drop of flood water on the map. It was a photograph of the river's old course, and of the new course which we had created, and of the water lying therein. Of the four photographs that were produced of evidence of flooding on the Barrow, one was a river, one was a lake, and two were places where the water had run away before we could get there.

The members of the Parliamentary Secretary's own Party do not agree with that, of course.

The Deputy had better discuss that with Deputy Davin. I do not want to be unkind.

The Parliamentary Secretary wants to play with the team.

I want to tell the Deputy without any hesitation that I do not care a damn if every Fianna Fáil cumann in the world said something which was not true. I am here to tell the truth in relation to these matters, and the mere fact that a Fianna Fáil cumann says the opposite does not matter the toss of a coin to me. I am going to deal with things which can be proved by competent witnesses and which can be sustained on the basis of hydraulic fact.

In 1939, also, photographs were produced and some were published in the Press of 10th November, 1939. The locale of these photographs was in each case inspected 24 hours later, and, in each case, the report showed that the water had disappeared and the lands were practically free from flooding. Photographs were taken of the seas which had disappeared. In some cases, the scheme drains were in need of maintenance, but even in cases where the scheme drains were in poor condition, water was lying on the land at a level higher than these drains and, therefore, while in some cases the condition of maintenance might have slightly delayed the disappearance of the flood water — it did not delay it for a day — in no case was it the cause of the flooded condition. I have given before the case in relation to a photograph published in two papers and now I refer to it only in order to give the date and the particulars. This photograph appeared in the Leinster Leader of 21st June, 1940, and in the Carlow Nationalist on the 25th May, 1940. Both photographs, which were identical, were marked “This photo shows recent flooding at Derrygarren, Offaly.” These photographs appeared in May and June, with that caption. The 21st June would not be a date on which flooding would be regarded as of no importance, but the actual flooding took place, and the actual photograph was taken, in January, 1940, five months before.

Photographs of flooding on isolated occasions are not evidence of the failure of the drainage scheme. The arterial drainage engineer is not concerned with one-day or two-day flooding in winter. He does not pretend to build a scheme to deal with that, and he would be definitely wrong if he put on the community the capital cost of providing a scheme that would prevent any such flooding, but photographs showing, say, for a series of days or a week, flooding in a particular area would be a matter with which a drainage engineer would be concerned. He would then look into it, the nature of the soil and the rest of it, to see whether or not it was the kind of flooding which was really doing harm. In this House, and outside it, I gave specific invitations to those who were anxious to produce reliable and useful evidence in this matter to give me photographs or evidence that would cover anything that even approached flooding over a period. Not a single piece of evidence of any sort or kind, covering even one acre of land, has been produced.

On 22nd July, 1939, typical cases were put forward by the secretary of this organisation for examination, and were followed, in August, 1940, by the reports of a local auctioneer and valuer on valuations made on 22nd August, 1940. This was followed on 19th October by a report of the engineer employed by the organisation. The main contention of the engineer's report was that flooding took place on certain lands about Clonbologue bridge when readings on the gauge at that bridge ranged from four feet seven inches down to three feet three inches. Deputy Davin read the last paragraph of that report which, in my opinion, adequately summarises it. He said that any considerable flooding started in that particular district when the reading at Clonbologue bridge was four feet seven inches. We went down practically the next day and one of the places which we were shown was one of the specimen cases, the land of Mr. Joly on which it was said flooding took place at three feet. Mr. Joly was there and he brought our engineer along to what he thought was the lowest place and from that we took levels, in the presence of Mr. Joly, which proved that no portion of the land he had chosen to exhibit to us, and which had been put forward as an example of the flooding, was flooded until the gauge reading was five feet. There may have been lower parts, but Mr. Joly was not able to point them out, and in relation to the other places given, although the report had come through the secretary, he did not know where the levels were taken.

We are prepared, however, for the moment to take as an example, for the purpose of argument, the figure that Mr. Bruntz put forward, that some considerable flooding in that district begins to take place when the gauge reading at Clonbologue is 4-ft. 7-ins. We will take it an inch lower than his figure. I want the House to coordinate this with the suggestion that little or no benefit has been received by the land, and we are taking their own evidence at its face value. The general purport of the organisation engineer's report would be to show that, under post-drainage conditions, considerable flooding begins to take place when the reading at Clonbologue is 4-ft. 6-ins.; and, assuming this condition for the purpose of argument, the actual pre-drainage and post-drainage condition in relation to flooding is represented by the following figures: In the seven years pre-drainage, records show that, on an average, the water stood above 4-ft. 6-ins. for 353 days each year, or 96.7 per cent. of the time. It stood sometimes three or four feet above 4-ft. 6-ins., and, therefore, this land was flooded for 353 days each year; whereas, in the post-drainage period, the average was only two and a half days per annum, or .7 per cent. of the time, and practically the whole of that took place in the last couple of years after we had handed the scheme over in full condition.

Now, I want Deputies to ask themselves, as between a piece of land, which is flooded for 353 days each year for seven years, and the same piece of land flooded for two days in winter, what is going to be the difference in the condition and the value of the land? Is anyone going to suggest that there is no material improvement under these conditions? Remember, these are not cases chosen by me. These are typical areas picked out by the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Organisation for me to check and test. The effect of the Barrow drainage scheme has been to lower the flood period from 353 days in the year to two days. Remember, that, with 353 days in the year, your lands are covered with water all the time and never have an opportunity to dry out. With only two days in the year flooded, and 363 days dry, and the level of the river lowered until there is an average free board of four feet between the river and the land, is anybody in his senses going to say that the statement here is justified, that little or no advantage has been got from the drainage and that nothing practically has been done?

We are told that vaguely and gently. I have a great deal of respect for the ingenuity of some of the propaganda which is being used in this matter. We have the suggestio falsi and the suppressio veri, careful, quiet, organised suggestiveness; land at 7/- and land at 10/- per acre. The average assessment is 2/10 over the whole 43,000 acres, but, by some casual, inchoate, unorganised and undecided co-operation of opinion, the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers all come to the common conclusion that they will leave the ratepayers of Laoighis, Offaly and Kildare to shoulder the bill of £18,159. So far as the immediate vicinity of Clonbologue is concerned, the area selected as typical, according to this local organisation — we think they could have chosen an area which would be more typical — we know that no appreciable flooding occurs above Clonbologue Bridge when the gauge is at 4 feet 6 inches. We also know that below the bridge, towards Derrygarren, there is some low-lying land, comparatively small in area, which floods at a level on the gauge of from 3 feet 6 inches to 4 feet. Conditions in other parts cannot be related to the Clonbologue gauge. It is not possible for anybody to suggest that, in an area as large as the Barrow area, there would not be an odd spot, here or there below the level, but the suggestion that any considerable proportion of the 43,000 acres in respect of which these people have unanimously decided not to pay — to take the advice of the chairman of the organisation: “My advice to you is ‘do not pay’”— justifies that description is, I think, absurd.

I do not think that anyone in his senses in relation to the figures I have given in these cases is going to suggest for one moment that there is either truth or frankness in the suggestion that little or no benefit has been obtained. However, that is only the beginning. Another of the so-called typical cases illustrates the quality of the evidence which has been produced. This is the case of Cloncreen lands, belonging to Richard Gilleece. I only use these names because they have been used and because they are the raw material on which we have to work. Otherwise, I would not use any names. We have three reports on the condition of these lands. The first is that of the secretary of this organisation, which says: "This is marsh land, subject to constant flooding, summer and winter and can never be grazed, as it is dangerous to all stock." Unfortunately, he forgot to inform the stock. We have a photograph taken on the 6/10/39 — that was coming on to winter. It shows cattle grazing on these lands. The second report appears in the Independent of Saturday, 2nd November, 1940, and is an advertisement of the same lands for sale. It reads as follows:—

"A nice mixed farm, suitable for tilláge or dairying. It consists of 1,015 statute acres made up as follows — approximately, 100 acres of good, arable land, 60 acres of meadow land, 200 acres of rough grazing, ideal for winterage, and the balance good, dry, turf banks of excellent quality and very accessible, adjoining Clonsast and from which a good income is already received."

Was that fellow right when he said that?

I would not say that.

You discovered that each of them was an Ananias in that area up to now.

The third report is from the Office of Public Works in respect of an inspection made on the 6/10/39.

This report says:—

"The general cleaning, deepening and widening of the main river saves this land from constant inundation——" it is exactly opposite Mr. Joly's land—"and ensures that, if it is flooded in abnormal times, it is quickly relieved. The nature of the land, however, is such that if the main farm drains are not opened and the holding worked, full benefit will not be realised. The main river needs attention here but the primary cause of any trouble would be the state of the main farm drains and their inability to carry off surface water from the lands. There is a good layout of old main farm drains which require only a cleaning out of accumulated silt."

I walked over that land myself and, certainly, in the condition in which I saw it it was not "ideal for winterage." At the time I inspected it — it would be some time early in November, 1940, but I forget the exact date — it was, at least, three and a half feet above the level of the river which runs beside it and of the drain which runs between it and the contiguous land. I had to wade over it in sea boots. The drains were absolutely choked up. That was the same position that I found on the land exactly opposite, on the Figile river, belonging to Mr. Joly. His land also was absolutely saturated; it was covered with water; his drains were chock-full and they were blocked.

Now I want you to go back for a moment in memory to last year. You know the kind of year it was. It was an extraordinarily dry year. Our records show that that land could not have been flooded at any time for nine months by the Figile river. In fact, the only occasion on which the water did rise was on that famous January the photograph of which was transposed to the following June. That land must have been absolutely bone dry in September because the whole land of the country was bone dry in September. No water had come on to either of those lands from the Barrow and therefore every drop of water which was sogging that land, which should have been absolutely dry, was water which had come in rain or had come down and had been trapped on these lands by the unclean drains on it. We had certain conversations in relation to those lands. Our engineers were down on Mr. Joly's land, which was flooded. It was pointed out to him that his land was over three feet above the water level of the river running right beside it. A drain which ran out was closed within 20 feet of the river. His answer was, "As long as there is any water there, no matter how deep or how wide you make that arterial channel, my land is not drained." In other words, you are getting quite clear the meaning of the demand which is being made upon the community: "Not merely shall ye spend £550,000 on providing an outfall but I will not use it unless you come on to my land and open my drains to allow the water which is on the land to go into the outfall which you have created."

That may seem an exaggeration, but we took up the question of the land on the other side of the river and pointed out the relative improvement to the land next door to Gilleece's land, on which the very minimum of drainage had been made. The drains had not been opened up but the drain going in from the river to the drains had been opened up; I mean the water had been allowed to drip into it. That is all that was done, but something had been done. When we pointed out the relative improvement that had taken place there due even to that little preparation, the answer was: "The more fool he; the more he opens his drains the quicker and the oftener his land will be flooded." Now you have the mentality behind the people, at any rate behind the organisation, which has £550,000 in capital spent for it on a scheme on which it will not spend a penny; farmers who owe £18,159 to the local authority for rates which they will not pay; who will not open their own drains, and who say: "Unless you come in and do our farm drainage for us, then that £550,000 will go to waste."

A photograph appearing in the Press on 10th November, 1939, showed this land flooded. The land was inspected on the following day by the engineer, who reported that the surface water had practically disappeared and that it would have completely disappeared had there been effective field drains.

Another of these typical cases (Lot 1, Rearybeg) is peculiar and we are bound to take note of it, because this is the first and the only suggestion that has ever been made of defective constructive work on the part of the Office of Public Works in relation to the Barrow drainage scheme. This is one of the reports put forward, and it is apparently suggested that in this particular case some of the condition of the land is due to the fact that a drain was left incompleted by the Office of Public Works owing to a strike which took place during the main drainage operations and that a dam had been knocked into the old river and not removed. No work in any part of the Barrow drainage area was left incompleted due to a strike. An inspection of the drain concerned in October, 1939, by our engineers shows no sign of any such dam.

There was one case, you remember, where apparently the witness had not consulted the bill of sale, and there was another case in which he had forgotten to consult the cattle. There is a third case in which there has also been lack of consultation. In the case of the lands of Mr. George Storey, the statement made by the auctioneer and valuer is: "In this case no economic advantage has been derived by the drainage and the holding could not possibly bear a drainage charge." In the proceedings of the Draft Award Inquiry, where witnesses are on oath, this occurred:

"President (to the owner of the land): Do you object to this assessment of £2 13s. 9d. on 10 acres 3 roods of your land?

George Storey (sworn): I consider it a bit too high.

President: That is your only objection — that it is too high?"

On a point of order, would the Parliamentary Secretary say from what he is now quoting?

I am quoting from the Report of the Barrow Drainage Inquiry.

I think the Parliamentary Secretary might give the date of that.

5th October, 1935. Staff work, apparently, is very good.

"President: That is your only objection — that it is too high?

Witness: Yes.

President: Do you admit improvement to your land?

Witness: Yes, a great improvement."

The expert witness of the Barrow drainage states: "In this case no economic advantage has been derived by the drainage." The owner of the land, on his oath states: "A great improvement has taken place in the land." Actually the Investigator subsequently reduced the assessment on this lot by 1/- an acre. In other words, George Storey thought it was a bit too high; the assessor agreed with him and everything in the garden was lovely. The report of our engineer's inspection, on the 5th October, 1939, states that "the land is in rough grazing, but suffers from lack of usage and working; no use was made of the facilities provided for proper drainage; the holding is now sound and dry — three cattle on it; despite lack of attention the improvement in the holding is evident; the scheme drain requires attention." As the House will remember, the mere fact, that the level into the outfall has been reduced on an average right through the river over the year by about four feet, has changed a condition where flooding was normal into a condition in which there is on an average about a four-foot free board in which the land can seep down and attempt to dry itself. In spite of the neglect of farm draining, some considerable improvement has taken place on the whole of the land.

I did not receive any deputation at any time from the Barrow drainage organisation, nor, as put in a newspaper report, were the Deputies dragged along as a sort of a long tail to that. I agreed with the Deputies that I would receive them, because they were entitled to this information. They were entitled to a perfectly frank statement, and they could bring whom they liked as expert witnesses. I think the Deputies who read that report and compared it with the facts will know how much regard to pay to any testimony or any evidence or any statement made on the authority of that organisation. It will be within the recollection of Deputies present at the conference which I had the pleasure of having with them on this matter on 13th November, 1940, that an expert witness stated that on that date certain lands were, to his knowledge, three feet under water. Fortunately or unfortunately, that portion of the Barrow had been inspected on that morning by two engineers of the Board of Works, who were present, and who certified that the land was found to be dry. I have told you that I inspected the land of Mr. Joly. I saw a good deal of the land, because I thought it was my duty to get to know those things at first hand. There is an awful difference between what you are told and what you see, and, even though one may not be expert as an agriculturist, and may not claim to be an expert engineer in the matter of drainage, it does definitely increase one's right to speak with knowledge and authority upon this subject, and does enable one to discharge the duty one has to the House in a controverted case of this kind, to be able to say one has oneself with one's own eyes seen the things which were complained of.

I do not want to interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary, but do I understand that this motion is going to finish at 10 o'clock? The Parliamentary Secretary has now had nearly half the time on his own. Somebody else might like to express an opinion on the matter, and the mover of the motion has the right to reply. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he would bear that fact in mind.

The House is entitled to get the information at the disposal of the Board of Works.

Surely the House has the right to hear what the Parliamentary Secretary has to say. Surely the taxpayers and the ratepayers have the right to hear it.

If the Minister for Industry and Commerce wants to put a point of order, he ought to be mannerly enough to stand up, instead of continually interrupting in his usual disorderly fashion.

Take another photograph !

One could take worse photographs than of water. I want to put this consideration to the House. There was an understanding that the mover of the motion or some person interested in the motion would have the right to reply, when this three hours' limit was devised. I want to put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that he ought to bear that point in mind, notwithstanding the extremely interesting speech which he has prepared.

I think the Deputy will agree that not one single word that has been said in relation to this matter has been irrelevant, for we have remained silent under everything that has been said, conscious of the fact that the Board of Works had done a good job and could stand over it and justify it when the time came. We are now doing it.

Could we get some idea, Sir, as to what your understanding of the procedure is?

The motion must conclude at 10 o'clock, and it is usual to allow some little time, certainly not less than 10 minutes, for the mover to conclude.

And Deputy Norton has not spoken yet.

At the same time the Chair cannot limit the statement of any particular member.

One great advantage in this House is that occasionally we get into that attitude of common cause which enables us to deal with our difficulties. I think the House is entitled, so long as it is completely by consent, to carry on even after 10 o'clock, and I think that the little difficulty in this particular case might possibly be met. I do think that we must put on record once and for all the facts in this case.

This present motion cannot go beyond 10 o'clock.

Yes, by consent of the House?

Standing Orders would have to be suspended.

I think you will find that, by consent, it could go beyond 10 o'clock.

Standing Orders would have had to be suspended before the motion was put. I think that, once the motion is put, it must follow the Standing Order.

I think we could agree on it.

We could agree to deem the Standing Order suspended before the motion was put?

Could it be taken as agreed that if necessary the debate could go on till 10.30 p.m.?

I am prepared to do that. An examination of our engineers' report on the typical cases——

I do not want to interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary at all but——

To put the matter in order, if there is an interlude for a minute and if somebody likes to put the question that the Standing Order be suspended I will accept it.

I move: that the Standing Order be suspended, and that the debate continue, if necessary, until 10.30 p.m.

Agreed.

An examination of our engineers' report on the typical cases put forward by the organisation showed that in the vast majority of the cases nothing whatever had been done to the internal drains, and in no case had full advantage been taken of the outfall provided. So long as the occupiers neglect to do their part in opening up the farm drains, so long shall their lands remain saturated, no matter what the arterial drainage engineer does, or how much the State spends on arterial drainage to benefit them. The evidence in our possession shows that only in a negligible percentage of holding has any attempt been made to take advantage of the outfall provided.

Before I forget it, I should like to deal with one matter raised by Deputy Hughes; that was the question that the amount spent upon the Barrow had been increased from £425,000, and his idea that that had some effect upon the amount which those drainage beneficiaries were paying. It does not make the faintest difference to them. Not one single penny more is being paid by the benefited farmers as a result of that increase. I just mention that in case I might forget it.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary say that the State has paid up the difference?

I am dealing now only with that one particular case. I am dealing with the question that the increase in the cost of the Barrow drainage did not affect by one penny piece the amount of annual assessments which have to be paid by the farmers directly benefited.

I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary a categorical question. Did the State pay the difference of £125,000?

No, it did not.

That is all I want to know.

The Dáil unanimously passed the Acts, having had the actual facts in front of them. The condition here revealed — I am now taking the complaint that there had been no improvement, and at that time there was a refusal to tackle even their own drains — would be generally analogous to a case in which a town complained that, as a result of the inadequacy of a sewerage scheme, an epidemic was rife, and in which an examination of the houses of the complainants showed that their own domestic drains were culpably choked, and that seven years of household waste was accumulating in front of their doors. I have indicated the position in relation to Gilleece's land and Joly's land. For such an occupier to complain that the disease from which he was suffering was due to the inadequacy of the main sewerage scheme, would be manifestly absurd.

Let us consider the suggestion that the benefit has been over-valued. The Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Organisation, in their letters to the Press, speak of their lands being assessed at up to 7/- per acre, as if that were the normal assessment. There are lots valued as low as 6d. per acre, and lots in the vicinity of towns valued as high as 10/-, but of the whole 43,520 acres assessed, 90 per cent. is valued at less than 4/- per statute acre. The fact is that the average benefit per acre assessed is 2/10 as against an estimated improvement of 4/3 under the 1890 scheme. It might be well to bear in mind that the comparable average assessment of improved value per acre per annum on the 51 separate schemes carried out under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1925, is approximately 4/- per acre, while in the case of the Barrow scheme it is only 2/10. Obviously there is no case of exorbitant assessments.

From the point of view of husbandry, the assessed lands cannot in the main be expected to enjoy full benefit unless advantage is taken of the improved outfall by attention to farm drains. Before confirmation, the assessments were reviewed by a highly competent investigator whom the Minister for Agriculture appointed. This was the method appointed by law for the ascertainment of the improved annual value. The meticulous care with which the assessments were made on these lands is evident from the valuers' and investigator's reports, showing the separate lots divided into numerous sections at varying valuations, with notes upon the type of lands in each case. Moreover, the State, having already agreed to pay 50 per cent. of the cost, had no interest in high assessments, and the assessments were made after full and careful consideration of the reports of these assessors, who were experienced and qualified men with no urge to place an undue share of the cost on the benefited occupiers.

The assessment was made at the lowest possible point in relation to agriculture in this country. It was in the middle of the economic war. We were right at the bottom of the slump of agricultural prices. The prospects were bad and yet the improvement was valued on that basis. I am perfectly satisfied that if it were valued now, or if it had been valued at any other time by the same men, by competent men, the assessment would have been higher.

Let us now turn from the evidence put forward by the organisation, in which the statements of alleged fact, as distinct from mere expressions of opinion, were capable of being checked and have been proved to be unreliable. Every statement that I checked has proved to be unreliable; it is all unsupported and prejudiced opinion. I want you to turn to the evidence that we produce, scientifically recorded evidence in relation to these works contained in the two charts which have been on display outside the Library of this House. One of these hydrographs indicates the daily height of the water level on the Figile river at Clonbologue bridge for the 14 years from September, 1926, to January, 1941. About half the total period shown on the chart — from 1926 to 1933 — relates to pre-drainage conditions, the other half to post-drainage conditions.

The critical height of five feet indicated for each year on the chart is the height of water level at Clonbologue bridge at which, in general, flooding will occur on the improved marginal lands in that area, and the period and depth of inundation are indicated by red colouring. Blue colouring indicates the period during which the river level was below the critical flood height. At lower gauge heights down to about four feet some lesser flooding will occur on isolated and particularly low-lying lands, but the area affected below the five feet level is relatively small. It will be seen from the red colouring on the chart that in pre-drainage times the river level stood at or above the critical flood height of five feet for long periods each year, and only dropped below this height for short spells in the summer months. Generally, the amount of drop below the five feet level pre-drainage was not such as to enable the lands affected to be dried out properly.

The change in flood conditions resulting from the Barrow works will be clearly seen by an examination of the river hydrograph for the year 1933. The improvement works on the Barrow reached Clonbologue bridge on the 25th July of that year, when there was an immediate and considerable drop in the water level of the river. In fact, the bed of the river at Clonbologue was lowered by about five feet. This point is the dividing line between the pre-drainage and post-drainage periods and the lower water levels continued throughout the rest of the post-drainage period.

The number of occasions in the post-drainage period when the water level has arisen above the five feet critical level are extremely few, and, in general, the drainage improvements which have been effected by the scheme can be readily interpreted by the amount of red colouring on the diagrams before and after the works were completed. It will be noticed, too, that any floods exceeding the critical level in the post-drainage period were of very short duration. They show as occasional spear-heads in the post-drainage period as compared with practically continuous flat and rounded areas in the pre-drainage period. It will be noted, too, that any post-drainage flooding which has occurred is confined almost entirely to the winter months, when it can have little serious effect.

On two occasions only in the seven years of post-drainage has the water level risen above four feet in the summer months. These occurred during the wet summer of 1938, but the floods on each occasion were of very short duration. No maintenance work was done in the district from the end of 1937 until 1940. No doubt the routine maintenance works will improve matters again. In the worst conditions of post-drainage flooding only low-lying lands adjoining the main channels are affected. The second chart exhibited is for the water gauge at Dunrally Bridge on the main Barrow river. This chart for Dunrally is probably more indicative of conditions generally over the whole of the Barrow scheme. The critical flood height for the Dunrally hydrograph is eight feet, six inches.

I invite all Deputies, and all others concerned to know the truth in this matter, to study those charts — evidence based on ascertainable and unquestionable facts — and see for themselves the really tremendous improvement that has been effected in the flooding conditions.

An advertisement appeared in the newspapers on the 31st January, 1940, inviting the Deputies of Counties Kildare, Leix and Offaly, engineers and all others concerned, to come immediately to inspect thousands of acres in the whole drainage district which were under water. We have similarly received an invitation to hold our engineers in readiness to come immediately when it was intimated by telephone that the water had reached a certain level. Our experience of inspecting the so-called flooded areas at the earliest moment that we could after we received notice was that before we could get there the water had gone and the whole evidence of these frantic appeals for immediate presence to inspect is evidence of the brevity, infrequency and, therefore, lack of significance, of any flooding which, under present conditions, takes place.

Taking all this evidence into account, it seems to be clear that the State has efficiently and economically done what it set out to do. It has, under a sound plan, with eminently competent engineers and proper supervision, carried out an arterial drainage scheme which has so lowered the level and made available an effective outfall that the 43,500 acres of land which were assessed in the award must have received, even under the present conditions, a very real benefit, and would receive the full assessed benefit if the ordinary farm drains on these lands were opened up and connected to the outfall provided. As I have said, the value of the benefit was assessed on the reasonable assumption that the occupiers would do this work.

The second portion of the motion, which no one has touched upon, suggested that no benefit whatever has been conferred by this scheme on many ratepayers who are required to pay the county-at-large charges. I have a good deal of sympathy with the ratepayers in this matter, but I also have a good deal of sympathy with the taxpayers, and the question of transferring any particular burden from a ratepayer to a taxpayer does not seem to me to involve any great principle. Ratepayers have to contribute to all such schemes. The motion, in effect, demands that the ratepayers' share of the cost of this scheme should be transferred to the taxpayer of the country. What benefit is given to taxpayers in Kerry or Donegal by this scheme? Yet, they contribute their share of 59½ per cent. of the capital cost. It must be clearly appreciated that the payment of contributions towards drainage schemes by way of county rates is general throughout the country and rests on Parliamentary authority.

In 16 counties the ratepayers are making, by way of ordinary rates, contributions towards drainage schemes from which they get no direct benefit. In many counties, they are contributing in rates towards more than one scheme and of course they also pay a share of the State's contribution by way of taxes, etc. In fact, in many cases the county councils have even increased their contributions subsequently when it was found that the schemes were more expensive than was anticipated. I have been always struck by the willingness and the generosity of county councils to contribute towards schemes. County councils generally have shown a remarkable willingness voluntarily to contribute towards the cost of the drainage schemes. In every one of these 1925 Act schemes it was required that they should be sponsored by the county councils and that the county councils should voluntarily contribute to their capital cost.

Amongst the indirect benefits accruing from drainage are improvements in highways, towns, sewerage, public health, wages distribution and increase in the productive capacity of the rateable area served. I have the testimony of Deputies Davin, Gorry and Hughes to support that statement. In the case of the Barrow, out of £550,000 spent, some £333,000 went on wages. The development of the Clonsast bog was made possible, on which up to £70,000 has already been spent on wages, giving steady employment to 200 men, as well as seasonal employment to about 400 men. Further developments in Clonsast are contemplated with consequent local financial advantage. The sanitary conditions and amenities of all the towns and villages in the district, particularly Mountmellick and Portarlington have been improved with consequent public health advantages. There was one road in the area that used to be known as the "navigation", and there are a couple of other roads there along which piers were erected to enable pedestrians to travel along the roads when they were under water. Many important public roads in the area, formerly rendered frequently impassible by floods—for instance the main roads between Athy-Monasterevan and between Portarlington-Mountmellick — are now completely free from flooding.

It would seem, therefore, that in principle the contributions from the county funds in the case of the Barrow are in line with the position in other counties, that the benefits received by the ratepayers are relatively substantial and that productive assets have been created. This condition has been brought into being in accordance with the law and that law was not voted against in any of its stages by the representatives in the Dáil of the ratepayers concerned. No case can be made in principle on behalf of those county-at-large ratepayers in Laoighis, Offaly and Kildare, which does not extend to all ratepayers in the other counties in which drainage contributions are being made. Unless, therefore, conditions come about in which it is decided generally, in relation to drainage that the whole capital cost, future and retrospective, of arterial drainage in Ireland, should be borne by taxation raised by this House, without any contribution either from the benefited occupiers of the land or from the local ratepayers, and that, in addition, a large proportion of the maintenance cost of such free gift drainage schemes should be borne by the taxpayers of the country, there is no present case for changing the financial basis of the Barrow drainage scheme.

Deputy Hughes raised one other point in relation to the intrinsic quality of the land. If some of the land had been under water, as it apparently had been for some considerable time, there is no question but that at the moment that land could be considerably improved. Had advantage been taken of the outfall which has been provided there, for instance in the last seven years, does anybody suggest that the quality of that land could not have been considerably improved during that period? Everybody's opinion in relation to the quality of land is his own and I do not expect anyone to accept my views on this question ex cathedra. We had an extraordinary experience in Rynanna. It was an area which had been submerged, an old drainage area which had been allowed to get out of condition. It was necessary for the purposes of the aerodrome there to produce a grassy sod. In the early stages, like our engineers, we recognised that there were limitations to our knowledge and we went to experts and asked them what mixture of seed was necessary, and under what conditions we should sow that seed, in order to get upon the surface of Rynanna a good sod. After the experts had not merely looked at it, but had analysed the soil, they told us that no grass could be grown there and that we could not get a grassy sod. I need hardly tell you that that was somewhat of a shock to us — engineers, experts in soil culture and all the rest. While we were worrying about this, some photographs of the area which had been taken from an aeroplane, some years before, turned up. On the photographs there was a series of very curious dots with no regular formation. We inquired what these dots were and ascertained that they were haystacks. I understand that the crop of grass which we are getting at Rynanna this year, from land which the experts in their ripe judgment told us could grow no grass, would make a prosperous farmer very happy.

I have gone into this question as carefully as I could and I am satisfied that a good job, a straightforward, sound engineering job was done. I am satisfied that the basic water level over the whole area has been so lowered that the land can be improved. I am satisfied that an adequate outfall channel has been provided, that an improvement of a very considerable character has taken place up to the present, and that a larger improvement will take place if ordinary good husbandry is used in opening up these drains. I am satisfied that the £550,000 that has been spent by the State in this matter has not been wasted; that good value has been given; and that good value can be got. I am satisfied that those who to-day are withholding from the ratepayers of Laoighis, Offaly and Kildare a capital sum of £18,159 and who apparently are contemplating withholding from them in the near future some £6,000 a year are not doing their duty either by the State, by themselves, or by their job. The case for the motion has failed for that reason directly, as far as the Barrow is concerned, and for the reason that the principle which. I am asked to adopt in relation to it, applied to ordinary general drainage, would be bad; and I am not prepared to recommend that special ad hoc legislation should be made in this matter.

We have had from the Parliamentary Secretary a well-documented and picturesquely written speech. It was rather unfortunate for him that he chose as his curtain to that speech an example which indicated — even on the testimony of the Parliamentary Secretary — that experts were not always right. Having devoted the best part of his speech to dealing with what competent engineers of the Board of Works — to use his own phrase—discovered in connection with the Barrow Drainage Scheme, he insisted in winding up his speech of one and three-quarter hours' duration by telling us that experts told him that he could not grow grass at Rineanna and afterwards he discovered photographs which told him that it could be grown there.

In other words the land was better than they thought.

The land was better. The Parliamentary Secretary told us we must rely on the experts and then chose an unfortunate simile by telling us that in respect of Rineanna the experts could not be relied upon. You could not grow grass there but the photographer produced hay-stacks. Let us try to get some kind of a picture of this whole Barrow Drainage Scheme from another point of view, not that of the folk who sit in the Board of Works offices and occasionally have a visit with the Parliamentary Secretary in state to Clonbologue or the adjoining districts. Let us consider this from the point of view of the Deputies in the area who are in constant touch with their constituents there and who see the flooded condition of the land and let us in that kind of background judge the value of the scheme. I do not want for a moment to go on record as saying that I believe the Barrow Drainage Scheme was a useless drainage scheme. I do not. I believe it was a valuable one, but its main value lay in the fact that, at a time when unemployment was high, it put very large numbers of people into employment and, as the Parliamentary Secretary said, brought them wages to the extent of £330,000 out of an expenditure of £550,000. I never have had any delusions about the scheme as a drainage scheme. In the main, it was an employment scheme and its greatest value was that it provided a large number of persons with employment, with a source of income, with a means of livelihood which they would not have had otherwise. Those who represent the area know perfectly well the very serious effect on the economic position there and that the persons employed on the Barrow Drainage Scheme lost their employment when it terminated.

To judge the scheme as a drainage scheme there is only one test possible and that test is the value of the work. What was the value of that drainage work, judged by the productivity of the land? If the Parliamentary Secretary would travel the course of the Barrow and not make the fetish about visiting Mr. Joly's land so frequently——

I have been all along its course.

——and if he would get Mr. Joly out of his mind, he would take a more impartial view. If he could get Mr. Gilleece's position out of his mind — I understand the farm he mentioned was Mr. Gilleece's — he would realise the situation more clearly. Mr. Gilleece's advertising advisers are entitled to advise Mr. Gilleece in any way they like as to the Olympian character of his lands. The Parliamentary Secretary described the land in such a manner as to make one think it must be a Garden of Eden, but he did not tell the House that the gentleman who described his lands in such a picturesque fashion did not sell the holding that was being advertised. The Parliamentary Secretary was prepared to play Slippery Sam. He told only one side of the story and did not say that the man who described the land so favourably was unable to sell it.

He would not get a buyer even in a lunatic asylum.

Not for a farm of 1,014 acres.

Not for 1,014 acres of that type.

The Parliamentary Secretary tries to put one over on the House. He may describe the land as being of any quality he likes, but the test is whether anybody believed it. The test in this case is whether anybody would buy the land or not. He tries to slip it across the House by trying to get us to believe that that land had been put in that position by the Barrow Drainage Scheme and that it would fetch an instantaneous buyer when the facts are that the land produced no buyer. The Parliamentary Secretary imagines—judging by his enthusiasm in the final part of his speech — that, as a result of the scheme, he has produced a new kind of Ukraine along the Barrow valley and that you can spill wheat out of your pocket and automatically get good crops. The facts are, as anybody who knows the Barrow valley can tell — and I know a substantial portion of it — that the land is incapable of being used as arable land, in the main, and from the point of view of feeding stock the utilisation of the land is a menace to cattle rather than an advantage, in a great many cases. I do not deny — I said at the outset — that there have been advantages in certain places. That depends on the height of the surrounding land in relation to the river, but where there is not a great disparity of height between the surrounding land and the river the land, in fact, is benefiting to a very negligible extent and, in many cases, is not benefiting at all.

I think that the Barrow drainage charge is an outrageously high charge, because, as the Parliamentary Secretary well knows, the Barrow drainage charge is higher than the poor rate charge, and it does not seem to me, from what I know of the low-lying portion of the Barrow valley, that it is a fair impost to require farmers in that area to pay a Barrow drainage charge which, in fact, is higher than the poor rate charge in that area. The Parliamentary Secretary was terribly worried about the fact that the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Organisation have not paid, approximately, £6,000 a year for the past three years for drainage rates, and he says that because of that the ratepayers of Kildare, Laoighis, and Offaly are compelled or will be compelled to make good that charge. He was rather strangely silent, however, about the fact that under the Barrow Drainage Act the ratepayers of Kildare, Laoighis, and Offaly were compelled to shoulder an annual burden of £18,000, independent of the maintenance charges, and that that charge was imposed by his own Department under the provisions of the Act. While concerned, therefore, that the action of the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Organisation will require the ratepayers of the three counties to shoulder a burden of £18,000 for three years, he has not the slightest compunction in compelling them to pay the other burden of £18,000 a year. Many of those who are compelled to pay that £18,000 have never seen the Barrow, do not know its source or where it goes to, and yet they are obliged, under the provisions of the Act, to pay £18,000 per year which, again, is an excessively high charge, because it works out at 1/- in the £1 on the poor rate for the three counties. Therefore, when the Parliamentary Secretary gets tender about the ratepayers of Kildare, Laoighis, and Offaly having to pay £6,000 a year as a result of — as I think he means—the misdemeanours of the Barrow Drainage Ratepayers' Organisation, he ought to tell the same ratepayers that he himself is putting a charge of £18,000 per year on the ratepayers of Kildare and two other counties. If the people concerned are wrong in not paying £6,000 per year, the Parliamentary Secretary can work out, as a mathematical proposition, how much more wrong he is in imposing a charge of £18,000 a year on the same ratepayers about whom he worries, or appears to worry, so much.

I think it has to be recognised, in connection with the Barrow Drainage Scheme, that in the main the Barrow valley was very low-lying land and probably presented more difficulties than any other drainage scheme in the world because of the character of the valley, the contour of the countryside, and the special drainage problems presented by it. It seems to me that, in any approach to an assessment of the value of the benefits derivable by the local farmers whose lands are alleged to have been benefited, sufficient allowance was not made for the fact that in the drainage of the Barrow they might not expect the same benefit, having regard to the contour of the country and its physical characteristics, as they might expect to derive from a scheme carried out in an area where the circumstances were not as difficult as they were in the Barrow valley.

Whatever the Parliamentary Secretary may say about the ability of the water to get away before he can get to Clonbologue from Dublin, the fact remains that walking on the land will convince anybody that the land is sodden, that in many cases it will not produce a single cereal crop, and that, from the point of view of its ability to graze cattle or produce grass, it is quite worthless. If the Parliamentary Secretary believes that it is good land, let him advise the Minister for Agriculture to plant wheat on it, or let the Parliamentary Secretary himself take it for winterage for cattle, and I am telling you that he will have frequent visits from the local veterinary surgeon if he does.

These lands, in a great many instances, still remain flooded, and in so far as they remain flooded the benefit to the owner of the land is of very doubtful proportions indeed. It is really immaterial whether the lands are flooded to a depth of one foot or two feet; if they are flooded at all, from the point of view of ability to use the land, they are worthless, because any water-logged land is useless. Whether there are ten feet of water on the land or only a few inches, it is still useless, and probably just as useless in the one case as in the other. That is the position in connection with the Barrow valley. It may be true, and I think it is true, that the water does not remain on the land as long as it formerly did and that, probably, the flooding is not nearly as deep as it formerly was, but the basic fact is that the lands still suffer from flooding, and, because of the condition of the lands, it is not possible to use them either for the purpose of tillage or, to any great extent, for the purpose of pasture. One thing that is clear is that the land has not been made, to any great extent, arable by the drainage scheme. It may have diminished the floods, it may have reduced the extent of the floods and the depth of the flooding, but in a great many instances the land is still unusable and just as unusable as it was before the Barrow was drained.

The Parliamentary Secretary talked about Clonsast bog, and told us of the great benefits that have been made possible in the development of Clonsast bog as a result of the Barrow drainage scheme, but the owners of the Clonsast bog are not being asked to pay a ha'penny drainage rate. Instead, the ratepayers of the three counties of Kildare, Laoighis and Offaly, are going to pay 50 per cent. of the cost of draining the Barrow which conferred such a benefit on Clonsast bog, and the farmers in the area are to be asked to pay £6,000 a year for the maintenance charges on the River Barrow, which made it possible, according to the Parliamentary Secretary, to develop Clonsast bog. I think the owners of Clonsast bog ought to be asked to pay, since, according to the Parliamentary Secretary, the Clonsast bog scheme was made possible by the drainage of the Barrow, particularly as the owners of the bog are not paying anything, while ratepayers in three counties, some of whom may never have seen the Barrow, have to pay 1/- in the £ in the poor rate, and the others have to pay £6,000 a year for the main tenance of the drainage scheme.

As I said at the outset, I do not want to say that the Barrow Drainage Scheme did not produce some benefits. Undoubtedly, it did, but they are not as extensive as the Board of Works people say, or not as beneficial to the owners of the adjoining lands as the Parliamentary Secretary believes. I would urge him to set up some tribunal to review cases of hardship, and permit that tribunal to hear the evidence of persons who contend that their lands are not benefited. We have now an opportunity of ascertaining, more accurately than at the time when the arbitrator's report was produced, what the benefit is to these lands, in the light of experience over a few years. If the Parliamentary Secretary is convinced that no cases of hardship exist, the tribunal will easily dispose of frivolous pleas of that kind, but if, on the other hand, an impartially constituted tribunal of competent persons are satisfied that there is a case for relief, I think that relief should be given. I am interested in this matter from the standpoint of endeavouring to persuade the Parliamentary Secretary to set up a special tribunal to deal with cases of hardship of that kind, and to allow the matter to be investigated by a competent arbitrator in the light of the experience of the past few years. If the Parliamentary Secretary did that, he might get over the difficulties that have arisen about the payment of maintenance rates, and the question could probably be amicably settled, rather than force through, with the aid of the agencies that the State can command, the provisions of the Barrow Drainage Act. That would only produce resentment and would not enable us to garner the full benefits of the drainage of the Barrow.

I must say that I was greatly disappointed at the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary. I consider that he treated Deputies rather badly. He came into the House with a typewritten reply and he based his reply on statements made outside this House, instead of replying to the case made here. He spent much of the three hours devoted to this motion in proving that the scheme generally was a success. No Deputy disputed that fact that the scheme was a success. The Parliamentary Secretary was wasting the time of the House in trying to prove the scheme was a success, when it is generally admitted to be a success. It was pointed out, however, that there are exceptions, and that certain special cases of hardship require examination. In face of what he described as hydraulic facts, the Parliamentary Secretary was very careful to keep away from the real problem to which I directed his attention, and that is the nature of the soil and the type of herbage and fertility in the area. Speaking as an agriculturist I believe that fertility is absent over large tracts of the land there. The Parliamentary Secretary stated that he went and walked over the land with engineers from the Board of Works. What does the Parliamentary Secretary know about herbage or the fertility of the soil? I am inclined to question his knowledge there and, in fact, the knowledge of any engineer in the Board of Works.

I do not know that engineers presume to be experts on soil. I do not presume to be an expert but I have practical experience that is useful when coming to a decision on a matter of that kind. I am satisfied that it was not the intention of the scheme to create land for tillage purposes but for grazing or meadowland. In certain areas of the Barrow valley there are large tracts of land, as Deputy Gorry has admitted, containing a number of holdings made up of rough coarse washed-out bogland. The herbage there has no grazing value. The charges imposed by this scheme are not economic. That is the problem. The Parliamentary Secretary merely made a passing reference to that, but he devoted most of the time to deal with what is generally admitted, that the scheme generally was a success. He referred to the amending Acts that were passed. I quoted from the Official Debates a statement made by the Minister for Finance at the time promising that if the cost of the scheme exceeded £425,000 the difference would be borne by the State. The Parliamentary Secretary said that by the amending Act of 1933 the State had not to contribute the other £125,000. I want to point out that there are two parties to a contract. One party cannot break a contract without the consent of the other, even if one of the parties is the Government.

People who consented to pay a certain portion of the cost were not consulted before the amending Act of 1933 was passed. Morally there was no just case for the amending Act without consulting the people who had been a party to the parent Act. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the scheme could only be economic if it met capital charges and maintenance. He also said the financial assistance given in the case of the Barrow was more than could be given for every drainage scheme. I have no doubt about that. There is no parallel case in this country. Can he point to any other case where there is a vast tract of flat, very poor quality land containing thousands of acres to be drained?

There are half-a-dozen other cases.

Is not the Barrow scheme out on its own in that respect? There is no parallel case. It was acknowledged, long before this Parliament was established, that the Barrow problem was out on its own. The Parliamentary Secretary attempted to compare the Barrow with other schemes because it was claimed that it improved an amount of land. He could not make that case. I read out names of people on whose holdings the Barrow charges are far in excess of the poor rates. They live in the centre of the area, but the Parliamentary Secretary quoted cases on the edge of the scheme where less than 10 per cent. of the land assessed actually benefited. That is not a fair comparison. Take the case of Patrick Weldon, who has eight acres. Allowing 20 years' purchase in that case, the amount would be £100, and, if that £100 be divided by eight, it means that the valuation would be £12 10s. per acre instead of £8 5s. Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree that the Land Commission would pay £12 10s. an acre for that land? I do not think he has attempted to deal fairly with the case that was made, or in the right spirit.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 11; Níl, 46.

  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Davin, William.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Keating, John.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • Norton, William.

Níl

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flinn, Hugo V.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Richard.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Corish and Hughes; Níl: Deputies Smith and Brady.
Question declared lost.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.40 p.m. until 3 p.m., Wednesday, 19th February, 1941.
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