In Committee. - Trade Union Bill, 1941—From the Seanad.
It is proposed to accept the amendments to this Bill which have been inserted by the Seanad. I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:—
Section 6. In sub-section (4), page 4, in line 40, the word "constantly" deleted and the word "usually" substituted therefor.
The purpose of this amendment is to delete the word "constantly" and substitute the word "usually". It was felt that that would better express the view of the House. "Constantly" might be held to connote "continued without intermission," whereas the general intention was, I think, that the people employed by the employer concerned in a section of this sort would be employed by him according to custom or as a frequent usage or as a rule and in a regular manner. The word "constantly" might be held to connote "employed without intermission or interruption".
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:—
Section 6. In sub-section (4), page 4, in line 41, the word "habitually" deleted and the word "usually" substituted therefor.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:—
Section 6. In sub-section (7), page 4, in line 53, before the word "revoke" the words and brackets "(which shall come into operation on a specified date not earlier than one month after it is made)" inserted.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 4:—
Section 6. Before sub-section (8), in page 4, a new sub-section inserted as follows:—
(8) Nothing in this section shall render it unlawful for any person or group of persons to mediate in a trade dispute or to bring together the parties in a trade dispute with a view to reaching an amicable settlement.
I would like to make it clear that this amendment was introduced in deference to the views expressed in the Seanad that a situation may arise in which persons, actually engaged on strike and not being members of any trade union or excepted body, might find it difficult to meet the other parties to the dispute and that, accordingly, some arrangement should be made whereby persons of goodwill might intervene to bring such parties together. A great deal of consideration was given to this in the Department and in the Seanad, to find a way of dealing with that position without opening too wide a loophole in the Bill, and this amendment has been drafted in an endeavour to secure that. When I was accepting the amendment in the Seanad, I expressed the opinion that I was rather uneasy as to what the consequences of it might be, but we are going to give it a trial, with the understanding that, if it is found that this opens too wide the door, amending legislation will be introduced.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 5:—
Section 8. In sub-section (2), page 5, in line 32 before the word "Emergency" the words "expiration of twelve months after the" inserted.
The purpose of this amendment is to provide that the power which the Minister has under Section 8 to allow the deposits to be made by unions to be reduced by not more than 75 per cent. during the continuance of the emergency conditions may be exercised by him for 12 months after the emergency has ceased.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 6:—
Section 12. In sub-section (1), page 6, all words from and including the word "such" in line 25 to and including the word "hours" in line 26 deleted and the words "such trade union shall, in accordance with regulations to be prescribed by the Minister, keep at its office such register of members open" substituted therefor.
It was represented in the Seanad that the provision of Section 12 might be availed of by persons who were concerned rather to obstruct the legitimate business of a trade union than with bona fide purposes and accordingly it was agreed in the Seanad that the best way to prevent this would be to provide that the register would only be open to inspection in accordance with regulations to be made by the Minister, these regulations, of course, to be the subject of discussion with the trade unions as a whole.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 7:—
Section 13. In sub-section (1), page 7, all words from and including the word "such" in line 32 to and including the word "hours" in line 33 deleted, and the words "such trade union shall, in accordance with regulations to be prescribed by the Minister, keep at the said office such register of members open" substituted therefor.
This applies the same principle to nonregistered trade unions.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 8:—
Section 15. In sub-section (1), page 9, line 10, the word "two" deleted and the word "four" substituted therefor.
This is an amendment to extend from two to four months the time within which the trade union must submit to the Minister the triennial statement as to the number of its members.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 9:—
Section 16. In sub-section (3), page 9, in line 47 the words "fourteen days" deleted and the words three months" substituted therefor.
This amendment deals with the making good of the deficiencies in deposits of trade unions under the Act, when payments have been made therefrom. The original provision was that the amount of the deficiency should be made good within 14 days. The section as amended extends that period to three months.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 10:—
Section 21. In sub-section (1), page 10, in line 16 before the word "and" the words "or a person experienced in the operation of trade unions or in the settling of trade disputes" inserted.
The sub-section provides that the chairman of the tribunal shall be a practising barrister or a practising solicitor of at least 10 years standing. The amendment provides in addition that the chairman may also be a person who has special experience in the operations of trade unions, or may have that experience with legal qualifications as well.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 11:—
Section 22. In sub-section (1), page 10, the word "authorised" deleted in lines 30 and 34.
This amendment and the succeeding amendments, 13 and 15, merely delete the word "authorised" where it occurs in the sub-section. The word is redundant there in view of the manner in which the expression "trade union" is defined for the purpose of Part III of the Act.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 12:—
Section 24. Before sub-section (2), page 11, a new sub-section inserted as follows:—
(2) Notwithstanding anything contained in the immediately preceding sub-section of this section, if any ordinary member of the tribunal is, in the opinion of the Minister, directly interested in any of the trade unions concerned in an application to the tribunal, such member shall not sit at the sitting of the tribunal at which such application is heard and another person appointed by the Minister from the same panel as that from which such member was appointed shall sit at such sitting in the place of such member.
This amendment provides that no ordinary member of the tribunal may act in the hearing of an application to the tribunal if, in the opinion of the Minister, he is directly interested in any of the trade unions concerned in the application.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 13:—
Section 25. In sub-section (1), page 11, in line 12 the words "an authorised" deleted and the word "a" substituted therefor.
This amendment is similar to amendment No. 11.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 14:—
Section 25. Before sub-section (2), page 11, a new sub-section inserted as follows:—
(2) The tribunal shall not grant a determination under this section that a trade union registered under the law of another country and having its headquarters control in that country or two or more such trade unions shall alone have the right to organise masters of any particular class.
It is proposed to apply to masters' trade unions the same restriction as has been applied to trade unions of workers.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 15:—
Section 26. In sub-section (1), page 11, in line 34 the words "an authorised" deleted and the word "a" substituted therefor.
This is similar to amendments Nos. 11 and 13.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 16:—
Section 26. In sub-section (3), line 54, page 11, the words "may if it thinks proper" deleted and the word "shall" substituted therefor.
The sub-section as it stands did not make it absolutely mandatory on the tribunal to satisfy itself that the granting of a determination giving a particular trade union the sole right to organise workmen of a particular class would not affect adversely any rights or claims to benefits enjoyed for the time being by any such workmen as members of a trade union. This amendment makes it absolutely mandatory on the tribunal to satisfy itself in that regard.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 17:—
Section 28. In sub-section (1), line 39, page 12, the word "three" deleted and the word "five" substituted therefor.
This amendment extends the time from three years to five years within which, when two or more unions have been granted the right to organise masters or workmen of any particular class, none of such trade unions shall apply to the tribunal for a new determination. That is to say, the original determination instead of standing for only three years, will have to stand for five.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 18:
Section 33. At the end of the section, page 14, the following new sub-section added:—
(4) Whenever a negotiation licence to which sub-section (2) or sub-section (3) of this section applies is revoked the Minister shall take such steps as he considers adequate by the publication of notices in the public Press or otherwise to make known to persons likely to be affected by such revocation that the said negotiation licences have been revoked.
The terms of this amendment appear to be self-explanatory. Sub-sections (2) and (3) of this section provide that a determination of the tribunal shall be revoked if the negotiation licence of the trade union favoured by the determination becomes revoked. The amendment, which was proposed by the Labour Senators, provides that whenever such a negotiation licence becomes revoked the Minister shall announce the fact in the public Press or otherwise. This will make persons and the trade unions affected by the revocation aware of the position in order that they may take suitable action.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 19:—
Section 35. In sub-section (1), page 15, all words from and including the word "if" in line 6 and including the word "expelled" in line 7 deleted and the words "if satisfied that it is undesirable to admit such person as a member of such trade union on account of his bad character or on account of his previous expulsion" substituted therefor.
It was pointed out that Section 35 as originally drafted might make it mandatory upon a trade union to refuse to admit to membership a person whom they regarded as a bad character or who had been expelled from the trade union for habitual breaches of the rules. The purpose of this amendment is to give the trade unions a discretion in the matter and to allow them to decide whether or not they shall accept for membership a person against whom such allegations might be made. It is presumed, of course, that before admitting such a person to membership of their union they would first of all assure themselves that he had reformed, that whatever blots there may have been on his reputation prior to that he had purged in some way or that he had given them some assurance that he would conform to the rules of the organisation.
When the first part of this particular amendment came on, it gave me very great pleasure indeed to see the expression "bad character" out. I take it that in connection with these trade union matters the possessive masculine pronoun may also be read to mean the possessive feminine pronoun.
I am sorry I do not understand the Deputy's point.
It refers to the genus homo, regardless of sex—will that do?
I am sorry, I still do not understand.
Does it refer to men and women, or to men only?
Yes, I see the point now.
The Minister will appreciate that when the allegation is made against a lady that she is a bad character, it is about the worst one could make against her. Similarly, with regard to a man. It depends very much upon what particular syllable in the word is lengthened or dominant as to what the interpretation of it is. Would the Minister not consider making it: "who is not a good character," which is not objectionable in any way? In the form in which it appears at present it is open to implying a very great slur, beyond what was intended. The intention is character in respect of matters connected with trade unionism.
That is the main thing. The other thing is not concerned. In any case, "not having a good character" would cover it, and would not be so objectionable as it is in this form.
I do not think the section is as objectionable as the Deputy suggests. What we are providing is that where one trade union has been given the sole right to organise any body of persons, that trade union will admit to membership every bona fide applicant who is a person of good character or who is a person whose reputation is not so questionable that ordinary citizens would prefer not to associate with him or who has not been previously expelled from that union for continuous breach of the rules. The only thing that this proviso is intended to secure is that the trade union will not be compelled to admit to membership, against the considered opinion of the majority of the members or of those who are responsible for the management of the trade union, a person of known bad character, and it makes that reservation in regard to the general right which it confers upon people to secure admission to trade unions which have been given the sole right to organise bodies of citizens, in this case, more particularly bodies of workers. The section as drafted originally seemed to make it mandatory upon a trade union, if a person of known bad character applied for admission, to refuse to admit him. It was suggested that many people fall, and a good many of those who fall reform, and that it would not be right to deprive the trade union of normal discretion in the matter in regard to the people whom it would admit even if their character appeared not to be above reproach. All we are doing here is that we are ensuring that unless the trade union can convince a district justice that a person is of bad character or has been guilty of habitual breaches of the rules of the organisation, the union must admit him to membership. It does not cast any slur on the general body of persons. The only thing it does is that it still reserves to members of the union the right to decide for themselves where they will draw the line in regard to the reputation of an individual.
There is no description of this "bad character". Surely what is wanted in this case is to ensure that a person of good character gets in?
If he has not got a good character you can exclude him?
They can exclude him if they are able to justify it.
Why not put that in? I heard of a very estimable gentleman, who was a friend of mine, on one occasion being refused admittance into a pious society because some person in that society said: "This man does not keep peace with his fellow-men." The man had an excellent character. What you want is to include persons of good character. The Minister's job is not exclusion; it is to ensure that persons of good character get in. A person may have a bad character in respect of what might be described as the particular rules of a society, and nevertheless have a good character otherwise. I am not trying to get in persons who have done anything objectionable to trade unions, but I want to ensure that a man who has a good character will get in. If it is reserved to persons of good character, the persons of bad character cannot enter. We do not want a person to be branded. I think this is expressed in an unfortunate way here, and it does not effect the purpose. The purpose is to ensure that persons will get in, assuming that they have a good character.
I do not think we can do very much about it at this stage.
The Minister could consult with the Ceann Comhairle and see whether or not that is a better expression. There is some such power as that in connection with this matter. When it appears in the vernacular, it is quite possible that it will be put in the form I have mentioned.
If it is, it will do more than is intended.
What the Deputy is suggesting is that those persons should be tried by court martial, that is to say that they would be called upon to prove that they are persons of good character. As the Bill stands, the onus is on the trade union, if it refuses to admit a person, to prove in court if necessary that he is a person of bad character. For instance, in the case of a trade union catering for locksmiths, if a person who was reputed to be a burglar came along I assume that we would not deny to the trade union the right to refuse to admit the burglar, but I think it would be easier for the trade union to show to the satisfaction of the district justice that this locksmith was a bad character, by reason of the fact that he had been on a number of occasions convicted of burglary, than it might be for another person, who had only been suspected of having committed a burglary, to show that he is a person of good character.
The Minister might term his observations in that form tu quoque in connection with this argument. If a man of good character comes before the trade union, he should be empowered to get in. That is all I ask. He is entitled to have that right. It is very easy to destroy a man's character. It is most unlikely that a man of bad character will get in, but I want to ensure that a person of good character will get in.
Well, I think that is done here.
It is not, and as a matter of fact that particular terminology is open to many objections. It is not creditable to our legislation to have it in such a form.
It occurs in other Statutes.
Does the phrase "bad character" occur in other Acts?
It is in other Acts. It is in the licensing laws, for instance.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 20:—
Section 36. In sub-section (1), page 15, a new paragraph added as follows:—
(e) the fees payable under Section 38 of this Act.
This section provides that the Minister may make regulations in relation to certain matters governing the procedure of the tribunal and of appeal boards. It was urged that the regulations should cover the question of the fees payable under Section 38 of the Act.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 21.
Section 39. In sub-section (3), page 16, in line 58, the word "fixed" be deleted, and the word "taxed" substituted therefor.
This is merely a verbal change. The word "fixed" was printed in error instead of the word "taxed."
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 22:—
Section 40. In sub-section (1), page 17, after the word "tribunal" in lines 5 and 6, the words "and appeal boards" inserted.
This section empowers the Minister to appoint officers and servants of the tribunal, and the amendment extends that power of appointment to officers and servants of appeal boards.
Question put and agreed to.
I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 23:—
Section 40. In sub-section (2), page 17, after the word "tribunal" in line 8, the words "and appeal boards" inserted.
This is a consequential amendment.
Question put and agreed to.
Reported that the Committee had agreed to all the Seanad amendments.
Report agreed to.
Message to be sent to the Seanad accordingly.
