Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Jul 1942

Vol. 88 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Local Elections (Amendment) Bill, 1942—Committee Stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

As regards amendment No. 2, at Question Time to-day I expressed some doubt as to the relevancy of that amendment. In it reference is made to two Local Government Acts—1923 and 1925. I have since looked up the Local Elections Act of 1937 and the Local Government Act, 1941. In the 1937 Act, Section 3 runs:—

"Nothing in this Act shall prejudice or affect the operation of any Order made (whether before or after the passing of this Act) under Section 12 of the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923 (No. 9 of 1923), or Section 72 of the Local Government Act, 1925 (No. 5 of 1925)."

That is an Order, let us say, abolishing a local body. This provision was adapted by Section 54 of the Local Government Act, 1941, which expressly provides that nothing in those Acts shall affect such an Order. The Bill before the House is a single purpose Bill, a Bill to postpone elections. Deputies might imagine from the tone that permeated the Second Reading that it is a Bill to arrange for holding local elections. It is, however, a Bill to postpone such elections. If the elections are held, they will be such elections as fall to be held within the law and do not include public bodies that have been abolished by Order as expressly provided by the two Acts mentioned. This amendment, therefore, is quite outside the scope of this measure.

General Mulcahy

I got your note, Sir, only about 8.45 p.m.——

An Ceann Comhairle

My doubts were confirmed by the provisions of the Acts of 1937 and 1941.

General Mulcahy

I am delighted to find that there is somebody who is able to give a short and simple explanation of Section 54 of the Local Government Act, 1941.

An Ceann Comhairle

Section 3 of the 1937 Act is explicit. I will admit that Section 51 of the 1941 Act is not so clear.

General Mulcahy

Section 51 of the Local Government Act, 1941, says:

"Where immediately before the commencement of this section a local authority stands dissolved, by virtue of Section 72 of the Act of 1925 and an Order made under sub-section(1) of this section, the following provisions shall have effect upon such commencement, that is to say:—

(a) such local authority shall cease to be so dissolved and shall be re-established by virtue of this section."

If we had time to examine the Local Government Act, 1941, and if we had had notice that this amendment was out of order, we probably would have been able to suggest some amendment that might extract from the Minister a promise that, when elections were being held as promised by him, elections would be held all over the country. However, I put down my amendment——

An Ceann Comhairle

The amendment is not being discussed. Is the Deputy on a point of order?

General Mulcahy

Yes, on a point of order, Sir. I want to say that I accept without any further argument your ruling on this matter, but I want to point out that I put down the amendment in order to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that there were dissolved authorities, and that in explaining to us, following his remarks the other night, that elections were to be held, he would tell the House, if possible, that elections were to be held for all dissolved bodies and that if there were some dissolved bodies in respect of which he did not intend for any reason to hold an election, we would have an opportunity of hearing why. I even hoped that we might have an opportunity of devising some other means.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has now made his point.

Mr. MacEntee

The Minister is not as guileless as that.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.

SECTION 3.

General Mulcahy

I move amendment No.1:—

In sub-section (1), lines 37, 38, 39, to delete the words and figures "30th day of September, 1943," wherever they occur and substitute therefor the words and figures "31st day of October, 1942,", and in sub-section (2), line 46, to delete the words and figures "30th day of September, 1943," and substitute therefor the words "31st day of October, 1942".

The section as it stands proposes so to make the law that local elections need not be held until the 30th day of September, 1943. To pass the measure in that form would, I think, be out of keeping with the statements we heard from the Minister and the Taoiseach when we discussed the Second Reading. I thought August would be a suitable time for local elections, and I move the amendment in order that the Bill may be brought into keeping with the Statements made here the other night and in order that elections will be held not later than 31st October of this year.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy will remember that on the Second Reading I pointed out that irrespective of whether the elections were held at an early date or not, I should, as a matter of common prudence, press the House to pass the Bill, because one does not know what vicissitudes we may pass through in the future, what emergencies we may have to face or what steps we may be compelled to take on account thereof.

General Mulcahy

I do not want to go into any long argument on that point. My only interest in this matter is to ensure that the country will know what is the date contemplated by the Government for the holding of the elections.

Mr. MacEntee

The position is that we desire that these elections should be held at the earliest possible moment. Accordingly, it is my intention, subject to arrangements which may have to be made, to hold the elections as convenient to 15th August as possible—on the Wednesday or Thursday of the week preceding 15th August or the Wednesday or Thursday of the week subsequent to 15th August.

Mr. Hughes

Why not on 15th August?

Mr. MacEntee

That is a matter which I do not at the moment propose to discuss, but the date at which we are aiming is Wednesday, 12th or Thursday, 13th August. As I say, certain arrangements have to be made which would perhaps necessitate our carrying that date over to the following week, but our general idea is to hold the elections on the Wednesday or Thursday preceding 15th August. From inquiries I have made, I gather that, while there is no date which would not carry its inconveniences and disadvantages in present circumstances still taking the country as a whole, failing the 15th, the Wednesday or Thursday preceding that date would seem to be the most acceptable date, and, subject to the fact that we may be compelled to depart from it by postponing the elections for perhaps a week or ten days, the House can take it that the elections will be held on that date. At the same time, while I say that, I would ask Deputy Mulcahy not to press his amendment.

General Mulcahy

I withdraw the amendment.

Mr. MacEntee

If we are going to have any postponement, we might as well allow ourselves a reasonable margin.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Dockrell

I do not know if this is the appropriate time to raise the matter, but at Question Time to-day I interjected a question about the Borough of Dún Laoghaire. I take it that if and when the corporation elections are held, the election for the Borough of Dún Laoghaire will be held at the same time?

Mr. MacEntee

The elections will be held on the one day, if that is reasonably practicable.

Mr. Beegan

The Minister has said that the elections will be held as near as possible to 15th August, and I suggest that he very seriously consider holding them on 15th August, if at all possible, because, owing to the fact that transport facilities are as they are at present, I am afraid that in rural Ireland there will be a very small poll if the elections are held on an ordinary week-day. Furthermore, I believe that the urban areas and towns would have a decided advantage as against the rural areas, if the elections are held on an ordinary week-day. I ask the Minister and all Parties to consider the advisability of agreeing to the holding of the elections on 15th August.

Mr. Corish

There is another matter that I want to raise. Is it the intention of the Minister to hold both county council elections and urban council elections on the same day? There are some large towns which would be affected by such a decision—Sligo, kilkenny, and Wexford are three that I have in mind—where it was always very difficult to hold a county council election and an urban council election on the one day by reason of the fact that two ballot papers had to be issued in the one booth, which led to considerable confusion. I remember that on the last occasion on which such an election was held it was almost impossible to get all the people to vote on the one evening. Since that election was held we have had an extended franchise and, in my opinion, it would be absolutely impossible to get a true reflection of the minds of the electorate if the two elections are to be held on the one day. I do not think it should be done unless there is something very special to account for it. I know that in Wexford town the electorate, on the last occasion, was approximately 4,000, and we found it practically impossible to deal with the situation. Now, the electorate is going to be about 7,000 and the situation will be infinitely worse.

Mr. Corry

It is my opinion that nobody in this country wants local elections at the present time.

Mr. MacEntee

The House has already decided on that.

Mr. Corry

Apart from that, I should like to support Deputy Beegan's suggestion about holding the elections on the 15th August, if you are going to hold them at all. It is bad enough with the difficulties of transport, and there is no doubt that you will have an urbanised county council. With the difficulties of transport, if you get a 70 per cent. vote in an urban area, you will only get a 30 per cent. vote in a rural area. That is definite, but apart from that situation, which will arise as the result of the transport difficulties, you will be holding the elections at harvest time, when farmers will be busy saving the largest harvest that was ever reaped in this country, which is going to render it practically impossible for the rural population to go to the polls at all. I suggest to the Minister, that under these circumstances the elections should be held on the holyday or postponed until some time when the rural community can come to the polls. To hold an election in the harvest time is unfair and unjust to the rural population of this country.

Mr. Byrne

I should like to take this opportunity of saying that I am definitely opposed to holding the elections at such an early date.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That question is not before the House. We are on Section 3.

Mr. Byrne

I think, Sir, that, generally speaking, the whole question of the holding of the elections arises on the Bill which the Minister has brought in, and it seems to me that the public will be hostile to holding them and will not vote. The people, are uneasy, because their minds are on bread and butter at the moment. I would ask the Minister whether all this talk about paper scarcity and the withholding of newsprint from the newspaper people to the extent that newspapers are reduced to one-half of their size, and reduced in number, while others say that they are going out of business, is deliberately designed with a view to preparing for a Parliamentary election, and whether these local elections are being regarded merely as a "try-out" for Parliamentary elections. Is the Minister assured that he will be able to get ballot papers, or will Deputies or members of local councils, who may want to put their views before their constituents, be supplied with paper? If so, why are newspapers to be reduced in size and, in some cases, why must they reduce the numbers employed on them? I think that the paper which will be used for ballot papers and for other election purposes could be better used by keeping it for essential purposes.

I think the country is opposed to holding an election at the present time, and I say unhesitatingly that it is merely a "try-out" for Parliamentary elections. I would ask the Minister to postpone the elections and give the people some chance. The people have been getting enough shocks for the last few years. Do not give them another shock. In the case of the City of Dublin alone, many thousands of men are working elsewhere and will not be able to vote, and there is also the Army Vote, and extra paper will be required for the absent voters. I say that it is not playing the game to the general public, who do not want an election.

Mr. Cooney

One point that I should like to raise is concerned with the question of the incorporation of Howth in Greater Dublin. Perhaps my query would come better from Deputy Dockrell or other Deputies, but I should like the Minister to inform the House whether the residents of Howth will be enabled to vote at the forthcoming elections.

General Mulcahy

With regard to Deputy Byrne's remarks, I should like to say that we have always understood that the people of this country, over long years, have stood for representative Irish institutions being set up in this country, controlled and elected by themselves, to do their work. I have always understood that, apart from national work, there was always enough local work to be done in this country, and I am surprised that a person, who is so closely connected with so much very important local government work in the City of Dublin as Deputy Alderman Byrne is, would not clearly distinguish between the two, and would not realise the separate importance of local government work as against the ordinary national, political work. At any rate, whatever it is, both in our local work and in our national work, men and women, boys and girls, have struggled for generations to see that we would get the right to do our own work through our own institutions. Very often they had to fight and struggle hard, and they did not always have the most modern weapons, and if the spirit of democratic, responsible citizenship is going to be quenched in the people of this country because it is thought that we have not enough paper to wrap our citizenship and to wrap our responsibilities up in, well, then, I do not know what we think we are doing here or what the generations we came from would think we are doing at all.

I think we ought to try to keep things in a reasonable perspective. We all have work to do in this country, and we should aim at having all our people doing their work and all our institutions functioning sanely and adequately. We want to have our people using their brains and their energies through the local institutions, because it is only when your local institutions are working properly that you get a very important section of your national work done. I do not think you will be able to get these local and Parliamentary institutions working properly in the future unless you have an informed electorate, and I do not think it matters, in that connection, whether the electorate have a big enough bit of paper in their hands on which to mark their votes or whether a big enough bit of paper is sent to them by the candidates. I think we ought to look upon the holding of these elections as a very necessary job, which has been too long delayed already.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. Wednesday, 8th July.