Vol. 88 No. 7
I move:—
That a sum not exceeding £2,447,250 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1943, for Old Age Pensions (8 Edw. 7, c. 40; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 16; 9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 102; No. 19 of 1924; No. 1 of 1928; No. 18 of 1932, and No. 26 of 1938); for Pensions to blind persons (No. 18 of 1932, and No. 26 of 1939); and for certain Administrative Expenses in connection therewith.
Perhaps the Minister could explain a case that was put up to me some time ago. It was put before me by a medical practitioner in my constituency. A woman is in receipt of a disablement grant of 7/6 under the National Health Insurance Act. She is also in receipt of 6/- a week under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act. She reaches the age of 70 years; she is made willy-nilly an old age pensioner, and she gets 10/- a week. She loses 3/6. Is that actually the law?
I think so.
Does the Minister consider it fair?
It is the law.
Does the Minister consider it fair law?. I am not advocating legislation. I am only suggesting at the moment that if the Minister does not think it proper, there is such a thing as an Emergency Order and he can remedy the situation by administrative action. I suggest I am in order in urging him, by administrative action, to remedy that state of affairs. Is he prepared to do so?
No.
So far as I am concerned, I can quite candidly say, speaking in connection with the administration of the Old Age Pension Acts and with an experience of nearly 20 years, that the work carried out in this connection by the officials of the Local Government Department has been carried out in a very efficient and very sympathetic way. If I have any complaint to make, it is in regard to the way in which the Old Age Pension Acts are administered by the Revenue Commissioners. Some time ago the Minister gave us the number of persons in respect of the maximum pension and he also indicated the average pension received, taking into account all who are in receipt of pensions. On that occasion I asked the Minister if he could give me certain information. Perhaps he can do so now. If he cannot give the information at the moment, perhaps he would convey it to me later on. I was anxious to know the number of cases where pensions were passed by local pension committees and subsequently rejected by the Revenue Commissioners as a result of confidential reports made by investigation officers concerning the means of the applicants. In my constituency a considerable number of claims that were passed, granting pensions varying from the maximum down to the smallest amount possible, were rejected by the Revenue Commissioners following reports by the investigation officers regarding the means of the applicants. I happen to know the circumstances of some of those applicants, and I cannot understand how the investigation officers arrived at the figure they calculated for means. I take it they calculate so much for hens on the basis of the number of eggs laid by the hens in the year and subsequently sold to the local shopkeeper. I think the officials responsible for these confidential reports have deprived many deserving applicants of pensions, and they are not interpreting the Old Age Pension Acts in the way in which I believe the Minister would like to see them interpreted.
I have not that information at the moment, but I may be able to get it for the Deputy. I shall try.
If the information is available, I shall feel obliged if the Minister will let me have it later on.
There is, I understand, a provision in the Act— and, of course, the Minister is bound by the Act—setting out that an applicant who is alleged or supposed, or who has been proved to the satisfaction of the Department, to have given over a farm for the purpose of getting a pension, is ruled out. I believe that it is interpreted in that way. I understand that unless the farm is given over to the son on the occasion of his marriage, it is assumed that it is being given over in order to get the pension. Does the Minister consider it good policy that a man who has reached the age of 70 years or over must still cling to the farm and must not give it to his son; that a widow of 74 must keep the farm and not give it to her son; that even if a person at the age of 80 years hands over the farm to his or her son, that person will not get the pension; that even a widow of 78 will not get the pension if she hands over her land? I put it to the Minister that that is actually the interpretation put on the Act by the Departmental officials. I ask him to see that there is an immediate revision, because it is very unsound public policy. I think one of the worst features of country life is that the son of a farmer must remain a boy until he is 60.
I agree with the Deputy, but so far as I can remember any of these cases coming before me when I was in the Local Government Department—they do not come before me now—while I think there is a very strict and rigid interpretation of the Act, still there have been ways found of getting around that and to my knowledge they have utilised methods of getting around that.
I am not denying that, but that did not happen in numbers of cases to my knowledge. I, together with Deputy Davin, have very often experienced sympathetic treatment from the officials, but in the particular type of case to which I have drawn attention, I have always found that interpretation of the law. I am speaking now of my own experience. Of course, it was alleged that that was not universal.
It was not universal, and I think there have been ways found of getting around that particular point. A number of ways have been found, and I am sorry the Deputy has not discovered them.
That was the charge made to me.
There is another matter in connection with old age pensions that has caused a lot of difficulty. I must say that the officials of the Department have been very sympathetic. I am aware that they deal very sympathetically indeed with all cases that are brought to their notice. Certain difficulties have arisen with regard to the assignment of a holding by the father or the mother. When it is assigned in connection with a marriage settlement, the pension is obtained without any difficulty, but it often happens where the son gets married before the father reaches the pension age and the father still holds on to the place until he reaches the age of 73 or 74 years, and then assigns it, the old age pension authorities will not regard that as a marriage settlement. Of course, it is not a marriage settlement, because it is made perhaps years after the marriage. In such cases the officials are not at all so sympathetic. The argument is put up by the officers of the Department that the old man assigns the place purely for the purpose of getting the pension. That is a difficulty that has very often arisen in the Department. I think this matter should be considered carefully, and I really believe it ought not to be adhered to so rigidly.
My experience of the officials of the Department of Finance and of the Revenue Commissioners and those who deal with the appeals in the Local Government Department—and they deal with only a small fraction of the cases, only 20 per cent. of the old age pensioners, while the Revenue Commissioners deal with 80 per cent.—is that they give careful and sympathetic consideration to the cases that are brought to their notice. When we talk of old age pensions and the administration, we must take into consideration the 80 per cent. that are dealt with by the Revenue Commissioners. If there is such dissatisfaction as Deputy Davin suggests with regard to the question of means, I must say, since I became Minister for Finance, I have not heard anything about it. I have not got one letter per annum——
That is why I am asking for the figures—to give the Minister an idea of the state of affairs.
I have not got one letter per annum of complaint on that subject. That is a fact. If the Deputy or any Deputy in the House has cases where they believe there has been hardship I will be glad to have them investigated. I do not know how many cases that were recommended by pensions committees were completely turned down by the revenue officers. I may be able to get these figures. It would probably take a good deal of trouble and we would have to go around all the committees in the country. There cannot be many people, of those who were granted pensions at all, who are suffering on the ground of the operation of the means test because, of the total number of old age pensioners—143,000, in round figures—121,089 are getting full pensions. That is a very big proportion, is it not? They are getting 10/- a week—121,089 out of 143,000. So the means test cannot be operating very rigidly or unjustly there.
That is not the whole picture.
That is of the total of those who are getting pensions at all?
Yes.
There may be others who do not get pensions at all because of the means test.
I have asked for the figures because I want the Minister to get the full picture.
I would be happy to see the full picture, but I do not think the means test can be operating very severely, judging by these figures. I will see if I can get the other figures the Deputy referred to.
Deputy Davin's point is not a means test point. The point arising from a combination of the remarks made by Deputy Davin and Deputy O'Sullivan is this—that certain people tried to effect these assignments of landed property and these assignments were not regarded as good and the person trying to effect these assignments does not appear in the old age pension lists at all.
The Deputy can be satisfied that there are very few such cases. Deputy O'Sullivan may have had one or two in his experience and Deputy Davin may have had one or two. There cannot be any more. They are very rare. I can assure the Deputy of that.
For the information of Deputy McGilligan, I may say that I have come across some of the cases mentioned by Deputy O'Sullivan.
I have too, but there are ways found to get round that.
The kind of case I have in mind is the case of small farmers who submit their claims to the old age pensions committees and get them sanctioned for payment of pensions from 10/- to the smallest figure. The pensions officer appeals against that, and makes a confidential report and indicates that in his opinion the means or income of that person are in excess of the figure laid down in the Acts, and in that way the Revenue Commissioners cut out a number of deserving applicants from the payment of old age pensions.
Altogether?
That is the part of the picture the Minister has not got in the figures he has quoted.
I will try to get those figures. It will mean a lot of trouble. We will have to communicate with every pension committee in the country. However, they may have the figures in the office.
I have only limited knowledge, and I would not pretend to have knowledge of the whole country. I was prompted to ask for this information as a result of the Minister having quoted the figures which he has now given to the House again. He quoted them on the Budget statement. I do not want to put him to too much trouble or expense in connection with the matter.
May I ask the Minister if it is not a fact that where a revenue officer appeals against an applicant for old age pension, as a general rule, that is left to an adjudicator in the Department of Local Government and Public Health?
No.
Not always?
They only deal with 20 per cent. of the old age pension cases on appeal.
