At the beginning of the harvest last year we saw notices in the papers intimating that the county council and local bodies were prepared to help farmers in connection with labour in their harvesting operations and we were also informed, through the same medium, that, if we wanted military assistance, we would have to contact a military man. The county council arrangement was satisfactory. The men available were sent around to the farmers. As regards the military scheme, to get the necessary assistance took three or four weeks. That was bad business on the part of the Government. By the time the military man was contacted and the arrangements made, the harvest would be over. The Government showed no foresight in that regard. These are all things that should be taken into consideration by the Department of Agriculture if they want to get the farmers to produce food for the people. I pointed out last night that the Minister for the Co-Ordination of Defensive Measures told us that he would not give us military, that it was only the lazy farmers who wanted military help. The Government did not set out to help the farmers.
We have had Fianna Fáil Deputies getting up in Dublin and saying that the farmers are making plenty of money in the present drive. If they are making money, they are not making enough to clear the debts which they incurred owing to the policy of the Fianna Fáil Government in 1937 and 1938. It will take some years to clear off the debts due to that mistaken policy. It is very unfair for a city Deputy—what I would call a Dublin "jackeen," if it is allowable—to say that the farmers let down the people of Dublin, as Deputy McCann said. The farmers did not let down the people of Dublin. They worked tooth and nail from dawn to dark and it is very uncalled for for Deputy McCann to say publicly that the farmers of Ireland let down the people of this city. The farmers went out wholeheartedly to provide food for the people. It is a bad thing for the the Government to allow one of the members of its Party to say such a thing. When I read that statement I was faced with a big harvest task. We had a big retinue of men working from dawn to dark. If Deputy McCann had been down that day helping to save the food of the people, he would not make the statement he did. It was a most unfair statement and the Government should have recalled it. Things such as that discourage the farmers.
It is all right for the Government to say that we must till 37½ per cent. of our arable land. My own opinion is that 25 per cent. was enough if the Government went about the task of getting the 25 per cent. done in a businesslike way. They chose the lazy way of doing it. We all saw that tillage was, in some cases, not done in a proper way, but the Government did not help the farmers concerned to do it properly, as it was their business to do. This 37½ per cent. which they want done has broken the camel's back. I know a good deal about tillage. I have been working at tillage all my life. I have been working my own farms and I have been managing other farms. Last year, we could not deal satisfactorily with the crop where a large amount of tillage was done. On one farm of 90 acres of tillage, we had the implements and the labour ready and in the second week of August it looked as if we could get the harvest in but the weather went against us. We had continuous rain. That crop was standing up in the last week of August. We would have saved the harvest but for the fact that the weather went against us. The oats and wheat which we had not cut by the 1st September fell flat down. I was managing this place and had a certain amount of labour and equipment but, as I have said, when the weather went against us, what was uncut was flattened out. When we came to the last nine or ten acres we tried to get help to finish it off, but could not. The military were not available then, but were in a week or ten days afterwards. I said to the men, when we came to the last nine or ten acres, that we had better go back and save what we had in stocks. If at the time we had a squad of men available I think we could have saved these nine or ten acres. I had 15 men on that farm and two binders. Most of the nine or ten acres, when cut later on, was lost. In my opinion, if the military had been available in time I could have got them out and kept the binders going. In that way all the corn could have been saved. Numbers of other farmers in Westmeath were in the same position. All that, I think, was due to bad organisation and lack of foresight on the part of the Government.
As regards tillage, we in Meath and Westmeath are differently circumstanced from the people in the south. That, I am afraid, is not generally understood. Though our land is situated in the heart of Ireland, the truth is that our crops do not ripen as early as they do in other parts of the country. They ripen late, and as a consequence we are running into bad weather all the time. Therefore, I do not think we are properly treated. I think that as regards Meath and Westmeath, the Government should look for 25 per cent. tillage. Personally, I am all out for the production of food for the people. I honestly think that if the Government helped the farmers, and went out for 25 per cent. tillage, we would get enough food. I think the Government did not help the farmers, and therefore I have tried to point out what has happened. If any one were to make a personal visit to Meath and Westmeath he would find, I think, in the case of almost every farm that there is an acre or two that has not been saved this year. The Minister may challenge that statement, but if investigation is made, I think that will be found to be the position. Therefore, I do not think it is right to expect the people to do 37½ per cent. tillage. Better results would be got if the Government helped the farmers to do 25 per cent. tillage.
I am not against tillage; I realise that it is necessary for the country today. I pointed out yesterday that the Government are not helping the farmers, especially those in the Midlands. Take beet as an example. We are absolutely debarred from growing beet. My opinion is that the Minister and his Department do not want the farmers of Meath, Westmeath or Louth to grow beet. I grow it, but if I do it costs me 17/5 per ton to deliver it to the Carlow factory. That is the cost of delivery to farmers in Meath, Westmeath and Louth. I get a subsidy of 2/- per ton from the Carlow factory. At Moate, there is a line drawn, and below it the farmers who grow beet can have it delivered at the factory for 6/- a ton, but the cost to those above that line is 17/5 per ton. If the Government do not want to have beet grown in the area I speak of, why do they not encourage the growing of potatoes? That is a proposition I want to put to the Minister. We are prepared to grow potatoes so that we may have a proper rotation of crops. If it is not considered economic for the beet factory to have beet grown in the Midlands, then why not encourage the farmers to grow potatoes? We have the most suitable land in all Ireland for the growing of potatoes, and why not give the farmers £10 a ton for doing so? In a time of an emergency, the safest and best crops to grow are potatoes and oats. If the people can get plenty of oatmeal and potatoes, they will not starve. If the farmers were given £10 an acre for the growing of potatoes, you would have an abundance of them in the City of Dublin, and people would be able to get cheap food at 2d. and 3d. a stone. In addition, that method of rotation would help to bring the land back into fertility.
I would like to stress this point on the Minister, that it is not easy to grow wheat on the lands of Meath and Westmeath. I think, the Minister should have a talk with some of his inspectors about that. They are very good men, and I have not heard any farmer object to them. I saw wheat grown on some of the best land in Meath and Westmeath and, for some reason or other, it fell down. That may be due to some acid in the land. There is something short anyway. For years I advocated an increased application of lime to the land. My land was supposed to be short of lime. I got 30 cwt. of it from Wicklow, and put it on an eight acre field in which I grew a second crop of wheat. I got the soil tested, and was told that there was a shortage of lime in the land. This year I grew beet in that field and it suffered from crown rot. Now, the inspectors tell me there is too much lime in the land. A good deal of caution needs to be exercised in regard to application of lime. People in my county tell me that in the old days when there were numbers of lime kilns there was too much lime put on the land, with a result that the land got worn out. I am not against this lime business, but I just want to say that.
Personally, I am all out to produce food for the people. I think that the Minister would be well advised to go easy with regard to the Midlands. Many people may think that the rich lands of Meath and Westmeath are the proper lands on which to grow wheat and other crops, but I think if the Minister consults his inspectors he will find that that is not so. I think, if the inspectors' reports are consulted, it will be found that the growing of wheat on Mr. Purdon's farm near Killucan, which the Department took over, was not a success. You went to all the "rounds" in the world to sow oats on part of the lands taken over from Mr. Banim, somewhere near Slanemore, Mullingar. You had a great crop of oats, but it fell down. You put it up for auction, but no one took it. The parish priest took 30 acres for something like £30.
The Minister should take into consideration the experiments carried out by his inspectors and also the reports of his inspectors in Meath and Westmeath, and should bear in mind that the farmers should not be asked to try to do more than they are able to do. Certain farmers no doubt did not carry out the tillage which they should have carried out, but I understand that in Westmeath that applies to only 1 per cent. of the farmers, which is a great credit to us in Westmeath. I do not know the returns for Meath, but the Minister will find from the inspectors' reports that he should not try to make the farmers do what they cannot do. This 37½ per cent. tillage demand is going too far. If the Government had kept to the 25 per cent. tillage, and so much grass, and helped the farmers to carry that out properly, enough food would be produced to feed the people.
Deputy Corry last night mentioned many things. I do not agree with Deputy Corry on many points, but I thought he made last night the most sensible speech he ever made. He spoke of how a profit is made by the merchants on turnip and mangold seeds, and his remarks brought to my mind the real policy of the Government, which seems to be a policy of helping the manufacturer and industrialist more than the farmers. He showed how the farmers got so much a pound for turnip and mangold seeds and how the merchants and other people handling it got hundreds per cent. more. That is the real policy of the Government, and I am glad Deputy Corry brought it to the notice of the House. I find, however, that Deputy Corry says many things over which he does not stand when it comes to a vote. These are matters which the Government should look into.
With regard to turnip seed, the year before last, numbers of farmers in my county set turnip seed and got half rape and half turnip—mongrels. I understand that that happened because certain farmers growing turnip seed grew it close to land where there was rape seed, with the result that they got mixed. If you propose to have turnip seed grown by the farmers it will be necessary to see that it is grown in such a way as will ensure that mongrel seed will not be produced. Hundreds of farmers in Westmeath last year got nothing but mongrel crops—half rape and half turnips —due to the bungling of the Department. I hope the position has been improved this year, and I agree with Deputy Corry that we should go into this question of having our own seed grown here and give the farmer the benefit of growing that seed and so keep the money in the country. There is no use in giving a man in America the benefit. We ought to be well able to grow the seed. The Beet Association are well able to get their seed grown, and they see to it that if they give out a contract for the growing of beet seed, there is no other seed within half a mile of it and that there are mongrel results. A business group like the Beet Association sees to it that mongrel seeds are not produced and the Government, surely, ought to be able to see to it.
The Government's policy seems to be to give the manufacturers all the benefit and to ensure that they will get the biggest profit while the farmers get only a certain percentage. That is the sort of thing that is going to kill the farming industry. No forethought is shown in the efforts made to encourage the farmers to produce. It is all done in a haphazard way and the same applies to the tillage programme. The farmers are told: "Till 37½ per cent. of your land and take a chance that there will be enough food for the people," but if they kept to the 25 per cent. and saw to it that that 25 per cent. tillage was done properly, we would not see stooks of oats every 100 or 200 yards in the country. It should be done properly, if it is done at all.
Deputy Cogan spoke about committees appointed in each county, but I am very doubtful about these committees. My experience of them is that there is too much politics about them. I think it would be better to keep away from them because there is too much favouritism in them. My experience of county councils is that if a man has a grievance and comes up to the meeting, even though he is in the wrong, he gets the benefit of the doubt. If necessary, let there be a local committee whose views can be got, but with whom the final verdict will not lie. The verdict should be given afterwards by the inspectors. The local committees are working well in England, but I am sorry to say that our people are not built that way. What you want is an honest committee, and, if necessary, as I say, you can have a local committee which, however, should not have the right to decide. Get their opinion and their advice, but leave it to the inspectors to decide afterwards.
The Minister mentioned that the chairmen of county committees of agriculture might be appointed to these new consultative bodies, but that is a matter which he should look into. The chairmen of certain committees may be very good, but they may not be agriculturists. They may be men from the local towns or men like Deputy McCann, city men—that is what I want to avoid. The Minister will need to be very careful in regard to the chairmen of county committees whom he appoints because, though quite popular and decent men, they may know nothing whatever about agriculture and may have no agricultural outlook.
The Government have muddled practically everything all along. They muddled the potato situation, and, with regard to binders, we are told that a certain number, of these came into the country this year. I remember that, during September this year, when I was busy harvesting, certain people who were getting binders came to me and said that the binders had arrived two days previously in Dublin. I do not blame the Government for being so late, as it was not their fault, but the binders arrived on the 7th or 8th of September. I knew where there were acres and acres of corn awaiting the arrival of these two binders. I got on the 'phone from Collinstown to the Department and said that I understood that a certain number of binders had come in the day before, and asked if those binders which had been allotted to the two men who approached me could be sent down to Mullingar to be assembled. I was told that they could not, that a certain man in Carlow or somewhere else had the contract for the assembling of these binders. The official said to me that there was only one man in Ireland who could assemble a binder. I remember in the last war a certain number of binders came into Mullingar and were assembled in Mullingar. I pointed that out to the official. Fifty binders came in. I asked when could these two men get their binders, and the official told me that the man could assemble one, or at the most, two a day, that everybody would have to take his turn and that it might be three weeks before the binder would reach the farmers in the Mullingar district. I think that cannot be denied. I think that was real muddling. I pointed out on the 'phone to that man that in the last war binders came in and were assembled in Mullingar. The result was that one man got his binder 14 days afterwards, when all the grain was lost, and the other man got it three weeks afterwards. If these binders had been sent to the town of Mullingar, there were competent men in the town to assemble them. We are not duds in Westmeath, though we are not supposed to be tillage men. We have engineers. If the Minister for Agriculture had seen the rain that was falling and knew that 50 binders had arrived at the North Wall that were for different parts of Ireland, surely he would not have them sent to Carlow to be assembled at the rate of one or two a day and then transported all over the country. I know that one of those binders never reaped a sheaf this year. It could have reaped acres of corn if the Government had been alive to the position. These are all instances of the muddling that is going on.
In regard to tillage there is no organisation whatever, no forethought. As the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures said, he does not want to help the farmers; they are a lazy lot. He said in Westmeath: "We are not going to help the lazy farmers." If the farmers of Westmeath did 99 per cent. of the tillage they are asked to do, they are not lazy. That is the point I wanted to bring to the Government. All this shortage of wheat and everything else is the Government's fault. I do not want to be personal; the Minister for Agriculture is doing his best but I personally think that no doctor can be Minister for Agriculture. I am in agriculture all my lifetime and I cannot see how a man who has to go to school until he is 21 or 22 and study for his profession can know agriculture. To know agriculture one must be reared to it and one must be all the time on the land. I give the Minister credit for certain things. He knows a good deal from the experience he has had but he has been a student for a certain number of years. A man who wishes to be Minister for Agriculture must be a straight, honest farmer who has been on the land all the time.
Why did not the Minister go in for more rye cultivation? Deputy Donnellan said here yesterday that the people of Connaught could not grow wheat. I agree with him. A great deal of the land in Connaught could not grow wheat but if you had an alert Minister for Agriculture he would grow rye. If we had rye we would not be short of pigs now. There are thousands of acres of bog that are being tilled at the present time which would grow the best rye and the greatest crops of rye ever known. Rye is the greatest food that could be grown. I grow all the rye I can possibly grow to feed my stock. There is no food as good as rye for stock. If you mix rye with barley the cattle and the pigs will thrive on it. If you are short of food you could have rye to mix with the wheat. Rye has been forgotten. All the people in the poor lands wanted a cash crop. I paid £4 10s. 0d. a barrel for seed rye last year. If the poor farmers of Connaught could get £4 10s. 0d. a barrel for seed rye they would have a productive cash crop. There was great lack of foresight there. You require a Minister for Agriculture and a Government that know these things. If one wanted two or three barrels of rye to grow for seed at the present time, it is not available in the country.
All these things show that the present Government is taking the lazy way of getting the tillage done. They are blaming the farmers. I do not think they should blame the farmers. The farmers went all out and worked from dawn to dark to produce food for the people, but they were not recompensed. As regards wheat, I did not vote for the £3 a barrel proposed for wheat two years ago, because I thought then that if we went out for £3 we would not get it, and I thought 50/- was a paying proposition. Since then I see it is not a paying proposition. I see that 55/- a barrel at the present time is not a paying proposition for wheat, because we can grow other crops that will yield a better profit. If the Government want wheat, I advise them to give £3 a barrel for it. Let them not be afraid to pay the farmers. There seems to be some "edge" against the farmers all the time. You want the food. Give them the price for it and they will produce it. At the present time 50/- for wheat and 35/- for oats is the same thing. At that price I would grow oats in preference to wheat. If you want wheat you should give £3 a barrel.
At the Ard-Fheis, the Taoiseach said that the farmers in 1935 and in 1936 were in the front line trenches. I do not remember his saying that in 1935 and 1936. Now he says it, and he advises the people of the towns to stand behind them. I have been in politics since 1932. I went all through this thing in 1935 and 1936. I know what the farmers suffered in 1934, 1935 and 1936. I say it will take them generations to recover the losses of those years. But I never heard the Taoiseach saying that he advised the townspeople to stand behind them at that time. I remember when the farmers of Westmeath were harassed for their annuities. I remember that they went into the sheriff and offered £4 or £5 when they were asked for £20 annuity, and it would not be taken, but their last cow was taken, and they were brought into Mullingar by the flying squad. That was going on for eight months. At that time Deputy Ruttledge was Minister for Justice, and I remember coming to him at the time and saying that this was wrong, that the farmers were unable to pay, that they would pay if they were able. I said, "If a farmer owes £20, and if you will take £4 or £5, you will get your money." He saw my viewpoint, but it was only after a six-months' campaign, and after the farmers were beaten off the fields, that he saw it. I remember at the time there were sales in Mullingar, and the townspeople were asked to shut their shops, but they did not do so. There were no local townspeople to stand behind the farmers at that time.
Though the Taoiseach said at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis that he advised the industrialists to stand behind the farmers when they were in the frontline trenches, they were not behind them. Now he says: "I advise the farmers to stand behind the industrialists." What about the poor men? I know poor men who were batoned in Mullingar and who went home bleeding.