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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 Nov 1943

Vol. 91 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 5—Office of the Minister for Finance.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £26,237 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st of March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Finance, including the Paymaster-General's Office.

It is not usual for the Minister to say much in moving this Vote. In fact, in looking over the reports of the previous year's debates I find that there was very little discussion on the Vote for my Office. The Vote shows a net increase of £3,000 odd as compared with last year. The increase in cost is largely due to increments to staff, the grant of emergency bonus and, to some extent, to the fact that there are 53 pay weeks in this year as compared with last year. Eighteen members of the Department's staff are on loan to other Departments, due to the emergency, but the payment of their salaries is still on this Vote. The salary list has also been increased because of certain activities arising out of the emergency. This was called for as a result of foreign exchange control, on which we have ten additional officers working. We have eight officers working on the Neutrality (War Damage to Property) Act. That has also led to a certain increase in cost.

I am sure I am expressing the views of other members of the House when I say that we are all glad to see that the Minister has recovered from his recent illness. I hope that he is fit and well again, and is willing to join his colleagues in the work of preparing a plan for the post-war period. I gave notice to the Minister's Private Secretary that I would ask him to give the House a brief survey of the activities of the Central Bank since it was established and what, if anything, it has done to try to bring down interest rates. Will he also tell us of any other aspect of the work which was delegated to that body when it was set up by the authority of this House?

I do not know whether, on an occasion like this, it would be fair to ask the Minister what he thinks about the revenue position, or, with the information at his disposal, if there is likely to be any necessity for the introduction of an emergency or supplementary Budget.

One serious matter came to my notice from studying the last issue of the Trade Journal. The returns indicate a great increase of investments by Irish banks abroad during the period between June, 1939, and June, 1943. The report of the Central Bank disclosed that the investments of Irish banks abroad have increased from £104,000,000 to £161,000,000 inside of four years. I would be interested to know what is the average rate of interest earned on these foreign investments. I am informed that some of that money is invested at a rate of interest as low as 17/6, or less than 1 per cent., and that the average rate of interest from these huge foreign investments, which increased by £57,000,000 in four years, would not exceed 2 per cent. That is of interest to everybody who has made any examination of the position that is likely to face the Government of the day in the post-war period.

The Taoiseach, in answer to a question addressed to him last week from these benches, said that the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Supplies, Industry and Commerce, and himself, were acting as a sub-committee of the Cabinet dealing with proposals for the post-war period. We know perfectly well from the reports of proceedings of local authorities published in the newspapers that county managers, the Tourist Board, the Electricity Supply Board and other big bodies have been invited by the Government to submit plans for the provision of employment in the post-war period. I read a number of statements made following invitations that were sent to county managers, presumably by the Department of Local Government. In Galway the county manager stated that one of the proposals he was submitting, presumably for approval, was the building of 360 labourers' cottages at a cost of £133,200. On the assumption that interest at the present rate was charged local authorities, it worked out at £370 per cottage.

In Kerry it was estimated that, with present financial facilities, it would cost £550 to build a house that could be constructed a few years ago for £350. I want to know from the Minister, particularly as he is acting as one of the members of the Cabinet sub-Committee dealing with the solution of post-war problems, what instructions or advice have been sent to county managers. Can he tell us if county managers, county councils, the Tourist Board, or the Electricity Supply Board have been instructed to prepare their plans on the basis of interest rates now charged local bodies for development schemes.

Is it understood that in the post war period local authorities here will be expected to plan for the building of a large number of houses for labourers in rural areas, having regard to the present cost of materials, at the present excessive rates of interest? I gather that that is the position in view of recent remarks of county managers in Galway and Kerry. If that is so it is certainly very serious for the taxpayers. At the same time we find that £161,000,000 has been invested by Irish Banks in foreign securities— British Government securities I presume—at rates of interest not exceeding 2 per cent. A big proportion of that money is lent at rates of interest not exceeding and, in some cases, less than 1 per cent. What action if any has the Minister, the Government or the Central Bank—if it has any function there—taken to bring down rates of interest for work of the kind I mentioned to a reasonable figure. I asked the Minister on a previous occasion to indicate any country where the cost of money for national development purposes was as high as it is in this small State. Is it to be understood that the building of houses, the drainage of land, the carrying out of afforestation, local relief schemes, peat development or other national development works that may be undertaken post war, will be carried out with moneys borrowed at excessive rates of interest? Have any representations been made by the Government to the Central Bank to ascertain whether there is any justification for the bank interest being 1 per cent. higher here than in Great Britain? In view of the fact that we are tied hand and foot to the British £ I do not see any justification for having the bank rate here 1 per cent. higher than in England. I hope the Minister will not think it unfair of me to ask for an answer to these questions. I gave notice of my intention to do so earlier, because they are of serious moment to the people as a whole and involve the capacity of the taxpayers to undertake them.

Recently the question of the removal of the means test in connection with old age pensions has been raised in this House. Like other Deputies, I welcome the introduction of the Children's Allowances Bill, but there is one striking feature of it which, I hope, has made a deep impression on the Minister for Finance.

Cannot that matter be dealt with when the Bill comes before the House for Second Reading?

I do not propose to refer to the Second Reading but to the administration of a certain section of another Act by the Minister.

I cannot allow the Deputy to forestall what is in the other Bill.

I only want to ask the Minister a question, if the Chair will allow me to do so.

I cannot allow the Deputy to forestall a debate on a measure that is to come before the House later.

I am not attempting to do so, as you will see quite plainly if you allow me to finish the sentence.

Yes, but the Deputy will have got in his blow.

I am asking the Minister for Finance whether he has any intention of abolishing the means test in connection with the administration of old age and windows' and orphans' pensions. I think you will agree that the Minister for Finance is the Minister responsible for the administration of the Old Age Pensions and Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts.

At the appropriate time.

I do not know of any more appropriate time to raise a matter of this kind than when the Minister's salary is being voted.

The Deputy is deliberately evading my ruling. He cannot persist in doing so. He is forestalling a Second Reading debate.

I am not referring to the Bill. I referred to it only in a passing way. I am referring to the administration of the Old Age Pensions Acts, for which I think you will agree the Minister is responsible.

No, he is not responsible. The provisions are contained in the British Act of 1908, which is not an Act of this Parliament at all.

I submit that that Act was carried into our legislation by the Adaptation of Enactments Act. Must Deputy Davin go to the British House of Commons to discuss old age pensions here?

There is a vote for old age pensions which will come up for discussion.

There is, but I suggest that, as the Minister is responsible for the administration of the Act, it is in order to raise it on this Vote. If you allow me to raise it, and to refer to certain matters very briefly, I shall not repeat my remarks when the Old Age Pensions Estimate comes up.

The Deputy is too old a member not to know that if one Deputy is permitted to raise such matters, all Deputies will have the same right. That is my difficulty.

I am long enough here to suggest that the remnants of the Act of 1908 should be abolished.

Not on this Estimate.

You were good enough to remind me when you thought I was referring, or about to refer, to a particular matter, of the British Act of 1908. I hope it is in order for me to suggest that it be abolished or repealed without any further delay.

Not on this Estimate.

In answer to a question which I addressed to him on a recent occasion, the Minister admitted—and I was surprised at the extent of the admission—that 21,500 old age pensioners are in receipt of pensions of less than 10/- per week. The main reason for the fact that they are receiving pensions of less than the maximum of 10/- per week is the existence of this miserable, mean test which is still being applied.

The Deputy is aware that on Vote 7, with which we shall be dealing, he will have ample opportunity of discussing this matter.

I understood that the practice, where a Minister introduces the Estimate for his own Department proper and where, as in this case, there are a number of subsidiary Estimates, was to discuss administration on the Minister's Estimate since the Minister's salary is carried there. That has been the practice for many years. Is that practice to be departed from on this Estimate?

If the House desires that can be done, but that arrangement was not arrived at.

It has been the practice all this year in respect of all the other Estimates.

It was not agreed that these Votes should be taken together.

Can we not agree now, to get over the difficulty?

If that is agreed, I accept it.

As the Minister for Finance, a member of the Cabinet having collective responsibility for all Government legislation, is, I am sure, a party to the removal of the means test from the Children's Allowances Bill, I suggest that he consider now, which, I think, is the appropriate time, the question of wiping out the means test in so far as it applies to applicants for old age pensions and widows' and orphans' pensions. I also make the plea—and I hope that somebody with a more appealing voice than mine will make the plea—that the miserable maximum of 10/- per week in existing circumstances should be increased.

Legislation would be required for that.

I do not know whether Deputy Allen, who does not say very much very often, regards Emergency Powers Orders and regulations as legislation, but it could be done by the issue of an Emergency Powers Order. He ought to know better than I that these regulations are prepared by senior civil servants and issued with the rubber stamp of the different Ministers. Is that legislation? It could, however, be done by a stroke of a pen under the Emergency Powers Act.

The Deputy is not in order in pleading for new legislation on an Estimate.

I do not want to weary the Minister with any further queries. I am deeply interested in the conditions under which post-war problems, such as the provision of better housing accommodation, the carrying out of drainage schemes and other works of a national development nature will be solved, and I hope he will indicate whether these national development schemes, which it is proposed to carry out in the post-war period, are to be paid for on the basis of the excessive rates of interest now paid to the banks for whatever moneys were borrowed for that purpose in the recent past.

Bhfuil sé socruithe go bpléifí ar an Meastachán seo gach Vóta go bhfuil baint aige leis an Aire Airgeadais? An mbeidh mé in ordú tagairt do dhéanamh do Vóta 26—Ollscoileanna agus Coláistí— anois?

Ba mhaith liom rudaí éigin do rá ar an Meastachan sin. Sara nglacaidh an Dáil leis an Meastachán, sílim go mba cheart, más féidir é, roinnt míniú do bheith againn. Tuigim go bhfuil Achtanna ann, agus fé na hAchtanna sin go bhfuil deontas in aghaidh na bliana ag dul go dtí Ollscoil na hÉireann. Sin é an dlí atá againn, ach ní fheadar an bhfuilimíd go léir sásta go bhfuil luach an airgid sin á fháil againn. Scéal achrannach an scéal seo. Níl mórán eolais agam i dtaobh scéal Ollscoile na hÉireann. Is gá baint do bheith agat leis an áit sin chun eolas cruinn d'fháil mar gheall uirthi. Do réir mar thuigim-se an scéal, domhan beag inti féin iseadh an Ollscoil. Níl aon chomhacht ag an Riaghaltas uirthi agus sílim gur amhlaidh atá an scéal in gach tír fé luighe na gréine. Sa tír seo, creidim go mba cheart Ollscoil níos Gaedhealaighe ná mar atá do bheith againn, go mba cheart gur domhan beag Gaedhealach bheadh inti, ach ní mar sin atá. Tá, deimhnithe go leor againn maidir le hOllscoil na hÉireann nach bhfuil scéal na Gaedhilge chó maith ná chó mór ar fónamh agus ba cheart a bheith. Sílim go bhfuil an scéal níos measa san gColáiste annso i mBaile Atha Cliath ná mar tá sé in aon choláiste eile den Ollscoil, agus ba mhaith liom iarraidh ar an dTánaiste an bhfuil sé sásta go bhfuil an t-airgead atá áchur i leath-taobh á chaitheamh ar fónamh ar mhaithe leis an tír agus ar mhaitheas Ghaedhealú na tíre. Tá eagla orm nach bhfuil scéal na Gaedhilge sna Coláistí Ollscoile, tré chéile, mar ba cheart.

Chonaic mé tuairise le déanaí i dtaobh coiste ollamhan a cuireadh ar bun sa choláiste i mBaile Atha Cliath maidir le ceist aithbheochaint na. Ghaedhilge ann. Ní fheadar an bhfaca an Tánaiste an tuarascbháil sin. Tá sé ró-fhada agus ró-chasta bheith ag dul isteach ann anois, ach tabharfad cóip don Aire, más mian leis. Tá sé soiléir ón dtuairise sin nach féidir bheith sásta le staid na Gaedhilge sa Choláiste sin. Chuir sé áthas ar Ghaedhilgeoirí agus ar dhaoine Ghaedhealacha gur labhair an tUachtarán nua i gCorcaigh as Gaedhilg nuair tháinig sé os cóir an phobail ar an chéad ócáid mar Uachtarán agus nuair dúirt sé go ndéanfadh sé gach a raibh ar a chumas an Ghaedhilg do chur chun cinn sa Choláiste i gCorcaigh. Rud mór ab eadh é sin, ag teacht ón bhfear sin, agus tá súil ag gach duine go bhfuil aithne aige air go seasóchaidh sé lena bhriathar. Ba mhaith an rud é dá bhféadfaí a leithéid a rá mar gheall ar an gColáiste i mBaile Átha Cliath.

Dá mbeinn in ordú, ba mhaith liom a mholadh nach dtabharfá an deontas so go dtí go mbéadh geallúint deimhnitheach againn maidir le Gaedhilg san Ollscoil. Chím go bhfuil £3,000 le fáil ag an gColáiste le haghaidh léighinn na Gaedhilge fé fhó-mhír (D) an Mheastacháin. Ba mhaith liom fháil amach an bhfuil aon eolas againn ar conus a caithtear an t-airgead sin. Sílim go bhfuil an t-am tagtha go mba cheart don Riaghaltas bheith ag ceapadh ar an sceal seo do scrúdú go mion.

Do cuireadh Ollscoil na hÉireann ar bun tar éis troid morán bliana ag na daoine a bhí á lorg, ach Riaghaltas Gallda a chur ar bun í. Ní cuimhin liom an t-am sin, chor ar bith, ach tá fhios agam go raibh troid mhillteach ann sarar glacadh le Gaedhilg mar ábhar riachtanach i mbunscrúdú na hOllscoile. Bhí baint ag dream maith daoine atá ina dTeachtáí fé láthair leis an troid sin. Bhí dlúbhaint ag an dTaoiseach, ag an gCeann Comhairle, agus ag Teachtaí ar na binsí thall leis. Ní fheadar an bhfuilimíd níos fuide chun tosaigh indiú maidir le ceist na Gaedhilge san Ollscoil, ná mar bhíomar an lá san. Bféidir go bhfuilimíd beagáinín, ach nílimíd chó fada chun tosaigh le Gaedhealú na hOllscoile agus ba cheart. Sílim go bhfuil an t-am tagtha go mba cheart don Riaghaltas an cheist iomlán do scrúdú go cúramach, agus más rud é go bhfuil airgead le cur amach againn, go mba cheart deimhniú do dhéanamh de go gcuirfí cuid den airgid sin i leath-taobh le hOllscoil cheart Gheadhealach do bhunú. Iarraim go láidir ar an Aire agus ar an Riaghaltas coimisiún do chur ar bun a scrúdóidh an cheist seo ar fad, staid na Ghaedhilge, agus uile, chun go mbeadh deimhniú ag an dtír go mbeadh Ollscoil náisiúnta ceart againn agus a háit cheart onórach ag ár dteanga féin ann.

Tá fhios agam go bhfuil Ollscoil eile sa tír seo freisin, sé sin, Coláiste na Tríonóide, agus chím go bhfuil £2,500 le fáil ag an gColáiste sin fé fhó-mhír E. Má cuirtear coimisiún ar bun ag an Riaghaltas chun cúrsaí oideachais Ollscoil na hÉireann do scrúdú, sílim go mba cheart obair an Cholásite eile atá sa tír seo do scrúdú chó maith. Tá tuairim agam—tuairim pearsanta seadh é—gur cheart an dá Ollscoil a bheith le chéile, agus nach gá Coláiste na Tríonóide bheith ann. Bhí cuspóirí áirithe ann nuaire cuireadh an Ollscoil sin ar bun, mar is eol do gach aon duine a léigh stair na tíre seo. Níor eirigh leis na cuspóirí seo, ach tá an Ollscoil sin inár measc fé láthair agus níl fhios againn conus a sheasann sí. Níl fhios againn cioca Ollscoil Ghaedhealach nó Ollscoil Ghallda í, nó a nglacann an Ollscoil sin le cuspóirí na tíre seo. Ba cheart feasta go mbeimíd deimhnitheach mar gheall ar na rudaí seo. Dá bhrí sin, táim ag iarraidh ar an Aire agus ar an Riaghaltas an cheist seo oideachais Ollscoile i gcoithcheann do scrudú.

On this Estimate I desire to raise the question of the administration of the Civil Service cost-of-living bonus stabilisation regulations for which the Minister for Finance, as the ultimate employer of civil servants, is responsible. It is probably necessary briefly to give the House an idea of the genesis of the complaints which have arisen because of the Minister's action in stabilising the cost-of-living bonus. To those who are not intimately acquainted with the subject it might appear at first glance that what is known as the Civil Service cost-of-living bonus is a special gift from a benevolent Government. I want at the outset to lay that ghost by asserting that it is no such thing. The cost-of-living bonus agreement came into operation in 1920. The purpose of that agreement was to enable the pre-1914 rates of wages and salaries to be adjusted in so far as the Civil Service was concerned by an upward or downward movement reflective of variations in the cost-of-living index figure. That bonus agreement of 1920 was not just a Government edict. It was the product of a long period of negotiation and ultimate agreement and became known both to the Government of the day and to the staff organisations as the cost-of-living bonus agreement. Under that agreement, the British Government of the day bound itself to respect its terms and the staff organisations, on the other hand, bound themselves likewise.

As I have said, the bonus agreement provided for an adjustment of the wages of the staff in the Civil Service and in all branches of the Civil Service, in accordance with fluctuations in the cost-of-living index figure. The main grievance of the staff in regard to it was that, whatever its advantages in respect of those with fairly good basic salaries, it had a very obvious and easily recognisable defect inasmuch as it was made applicable to the lower grades of the Civil Services who had low basic rates of wages.

From 1920 to 1940 that agreement was loyally honoured by the staff. They respected their word; they respected and honoured the agreement, notwithstanding the fact that during that period they suffered constant reductions in wages as a result of its operation, these reductions being inflicted by the Government because of their contention that the cost-of-living index figure had fallen to a degree that would justify wage reductions under the terms of the agreement.

Many and bitter were the sufferings of the staff by reason of the constant wage reductions imposed upon them. In order to get a picture of the extent of the losses which they sustained because of the fact that they honoured the bonus agreement, it is only necessary, perhaps, to quote one instance to this House. An officer who, under the bonus agreement, in March, 1921, had a consolidated wage, that is, a basic wage to which the cost of living figure applied, of £4 12s. 9d., had that wage reduced to £2 12s. 6d., in July, 1933— a loss of £2 0s. 3d. per week in a period of 12 years, under the normal operation of the cost-of-living bonus agreement.

I say to the Minister, and I think I can challenge contradiction, that no other grade of worker, in private industry or in the municipal service, suffered such severe reductions in wages during that period. In all the years, from 1920 to 1940, the British Government, this Government and the previous Government acted the classical role of Shylock; they claimed and got their pound of flesh under the cost-of-living bonus agreement, in the form of wage reductions, even when they must have been convinced that the imposition of wage reductions, particularly on lower-paid personnel, meant a debasement of their standard of living and an improverishment of many persons working in the State service.

In 1931, when the extent and intensity of these reductions were inflicting very great hardship on the lowly-paid staff in the Post Office, an effort was made to secure an easement of the burdens and on that occasion the Fianna Fáil Party, then in opposition, was approached. The merits of the case were explained to the Party and no less a person than Deputy MacEntee, first Minister for Finance in the Fianna Fáil Government, was so convinced of the justice of the claim of the lower-paid grades that he elected to champion their cause in this House and to plead here for an easement of the burdens which he then recognised were inherent in the rigid application of the cost-of-living bonus agreement. It might be well at this stage to quote, for the edification of the present Minister, some of the views of his predecessor in connection with the rigid application of the cost-of-living bonus agreement to the basic wages of lowly-paid civil servants. Speaking in this House in June, 1931, the former Minister for Finance, then Deputy MacEntee, said:

"To me, looking at the rates of pay which some of the smaller civil servants have, it is a constant wonder how they are able to maintain the appearance they do. I can only assume that they do it by spending upon clothes what might be much better spent on food."

Later in the same speech, the Deputy continued:—

"I am not surprised that such discontent should exist, particularly among the lower grades, because they see an entirely unfair standard has been adopted to determine what is going to be their remuneration from quarter to quarter."

That was the viewpoint of the first Minister for Finance in the Fianna Fáil Government. But, of course, like many of the other utterances of that great man, it was quickly forgotten when the mantle of responsibility was adventitiously thrust upon him in 1932. But, even if we do not put the same value now on the views which Deputy MacEntee then expressed, we can go to higher fonts of authority in order to ascertain the extent to which at that time even the present Government believed it was desirable that, so far as the lower grades of the Civil Service were concerned, they should be treated fairly and honourably.

In 1932 the Taoiseach issued what became known as the Fianna Fáil election manifesto of that year. This is what the Taoiseach then said:—

"We do not propose to seek economies by restricting the social services or by cutting the salaries of the middle and lower grades of the Civil Service. The salaries are in most cases barely sufficient to meet the cost of the maintenance of a home and the support and education of children."

When the Taoiseach issued that manifesto in 1932, the cost-of-living index figure was operating normally. Whatever were the defects in the agreement, at least, the staff were getting what they undertook to agree to in 1920 and, if the salaries of the middle and the lower grades of the Civil Service were barely sufficient to meet the cost of the maintenance of a home and the support and education of children, when the agreement was operating normally in 1932, surely the position is very much worse to-day when the bonus machinery is not operating normally and when the Government, having exacted all the benefits to which it claimed to be entitled under the agreement, has now declined to recognise that there are obligations on the Government to respect the agreement even when it does not happen to be as advantageous to them as it had been.

In order to show that that was not merely an incidental statement by the Taoiseach, we had a subsequent Fianna Fáil election manifesto in 1933. These were the days when Fianna Fáil believed that civil servants' votes were important. This was the 1933 declaration:—

"Our promise not to cut the middle and lower salaries of the Civil Service still remains good. This does not, of course, refer to the change in the cost-of-living bonus which is automatic in its operation."

So that in 1933, having promised in 1932, not to cut the salaries of the middle and lower grades, the Taoiseach re-affirmed his 1932 declaration and added that, so far as the cost-of-living bonus agreement was concerned, it was automatic in its operation and, impliedly, he had no intention whatever of interfering with the agreement.

In 1933, about the time that the Fianna Fáil manifesto of that year was issued, there was considerable agitation in the Civil Service to endeavour to secure an easement of the cuts in the cost-of-living bonus which were then threatened because of a continued fall in the cost-of-living index figure, a fall which was not reflected in the price of commodities and a fall which, whatever may have been its theoretical effect, at least in its practical operation did not make it possible for the lowly-paid civil servants to adjust themselves to the altered index figure. At that time the Taoiseach was appealed to and was asked to intervene with the then Minister for Finance in order to ensure that, whatever the operations of the bonus agreement were, they should not be relied upon to such an extent as to impose hardship and actual suffering on the lowly paid grades in the Post Office, grades that were particularly badly remunerated and in respect of whom the burden of the cuts in wages was heaviest. The Taoiseach at that time told us that the cost-of-living bonus agreement was a sacrosanct document, that it could not be interfered with, that it was something the Government inherited and something the Government intended to apply, and that, if there were any defects calling for a remedy, the remedy for the defects lay in adjusting the basic wages and salaries and not in a revision of the cost-of-living bonus agreement or in the abolition of that agreement. So convinced was the Taoiseach on that occasion that he went down to Ennis in January, 1933, and, according to the Irish Press of 9th January, 1933, the Taoiseach delivered himself of these views.

"There was at present a commission sitting to inquire into the conditions of the Civil Service, and its report was expected very soon. The Government have nothing to do with the cost-of-living bonus. It had been in operation before they came in. We promise that when the report is issued we will reconsider the bargain between the British Government and the civil servants. I never spoke of that at the last election. I was speaking of a reduction of big salaries, and I promised at the last election that when we begin to deal with salaries in the Civil Service we are not going to cut the lower salaries. We are going to keep our word when we get the commission's reports. In my opinion it would be a bad thing for Labour to agree to getting rid of that sliding scale. I am as certain as I am standing here that world prices are going to go up, and the cost of living will go up; and when prices do go up, it is a great boon to the civil servants to know that salaries will go up to meet the cost of living."

These were definite, positive, and unequivocal declarations by the Taoiseach that he regarded the cost-of-living bonus as something by which the Government was bound, as something which was an honourable agreement between both sides, as something that it was bad to get rid of, and, even more so, as a covenant with the civil servants, and, so far as he and his Government were concerned, they were not going to scrap that agreement because they recognised that it was a document to which two groups were parties.

From 1933 to 1940, realising that the Government regarded the cost-of-living bonus agreement as something sacrosanct and as something which could not be and would not be interfered with, the Post Office staff endeavoured to have a remedy applied by making claims for increases in the low basic wages so as to offset in some measures the reductions which were inflicted on them by the operation of the cost-of-living bonus agreement. It was not an easy job to convince the Post Office authorities even to examine the matter of a claim for an increase in wages.

But the present Minister for Defence, when he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in 1939, admitted to a deputation which waited upon him that he was impressed with aspects of the claim for increased wages and undertook to examine the matter sympathetically. The whole atmosphere surrounding the discussion with the Minister on that occasion and the Minister's very obvious words indicating his sympathy with the claim led the staff to believe that at least the Minister was going to recognise frankly that his staff were underpaid and that he was going to improve the notoriously low scales which were in operation in the Post Office. But, much to the surprise of the staff, the emergency was utilised as an excuse for not pursuing the matter further. Subsequently the staff, through its union, was told that, in view of the emergency, the Minister could not see his way to grant any increase at that time in the basic wages of the staff.

That position was bad enough, but in the following year, in June, 1940, the Minister for Finance announced that he had decided to stabilise the application of the cost-of-living bonus on the basis of an index figure of 85, the base being 0, and that he proposed to apply that stabilisation as from July, 1940. When that stabilisation was applied, the cost-of-living index figure was not 85; it was 105. So that, by applying stabilisation on the basis of an index figure of 85, the Minister was very definitely cheating the staff of a bonus award to which they were entitled on the basis of the normal application of the cost-of-living bonus agreement as from July, 1940. The immediate effect of the stabilisation of the bonus at the time was that an officer in receipt of, say, the low basic wage of 35/- was denied an increase of 7/- per week which he ought to have got under the normal operation of the bonus agreement. By the Government's unilateral repudiation of the agreement, that officer was denied the increase of 7/- per week to which at that time he had a moral and legal right under the operation of the agreement.

I do not think that the pages of our recent history contain an act by a Government so mean and dishonourable as the stabilisation of the cost-of-living bonus by this Government. The Government knew that it was bound by the agreement. No less a person than the Taoiseach himself declared his complete faith in the agreement, and his determination to honour it. Yet, in 1940, after this Government and its predecessors had exacted, under the agreement, every wage-cut which they claimed to be entitled to make, we discover in July, 1940, the Government stabilising the cost-of-living bonus at a time when it felt that the staffs concerned would get some slight advantage under the agreement because of the fact that the Government was unable to control the upward movement of prices. It seems to me that the repudiation of agreements of that kind—agreements freely and voluntarily entered into between the two parties concerned—shows very little conception of honour and fair play, and I think that it is a very serious reflection on our Administration here that a Government, having exacted all the benefits that it could for itself for a period of about 20 years, under an agreement, should then repudiate that agreement. That is a type of conduct which, I think, does not enhance the reputation of this State. At any rate, it certainly does not tend to inspire respect for agreements or respect for those who so light-heartedly tear up these agreements.

I think it was in November, 1939, that this Government announced, rather heroically, that it was going to set its face against anybody getting any advantage from the war situation; but when, by implication, it was indicated by the Government that if it was going to control wages on the one hand it would also control prices on the other hand it was generally thought that that declaration by the Government meant that if wages were to be pegged down to certain levels, prices would also be maintained at approximately such levels as would maintain the relative stability of wages as a purchasing medium. But what has happened since then? Since the cost-of-living bonus agreement was stabilised on the basis of an index figure of 85, the cost-of-living index figure has risen to 184—a rise of 99 points since the bonus was stabilised, in July, 1940: a clear indication of the helplessness or the unwillingness of the Government to control prices on the one hand, whilst being wickedly efficient in controlling wages on the other hand. If the Government could or would control prices, one might understand their contention that wages ought to be controlled. I do not say that one needs to agree with their contention in that respect, but one might at least understand the philosophy which it postulated. What can one think, however, of a Government which, stabilising wages on the one hand, refuses, on the other hand, to take the necessary steps to control prices so as to maintain the relative stability of the pre-war purchasing power of wages?

Prices have risen very rapidly. The present wages index figure is 184 as compared with 73 in September, 1939, and the fact is that the purchasing power of wages paid to a worker, whether he is employed by the Post Office or engaged in private industry, has shrunk so low that such a worker is completely unable to maintain anything like his pre-war standard of living or the pre-war purchasing power of his wages. In the Post Office, in response to sustained demands by the Post Office staff, trifling increases— described as an emergency bonus—were granted as from June of last year. The maximum increase granted was as low as 3/6 per week. Some of the increases varied from 2d. to 6d. per week. Now, I do not purport to be able to plumb the mentality of people who can maintain, in 1942, that an increase of from 2d. to 6d. per week will compenstate a man for the shrinkage in the purchasing power of his wages as between 1939 and 1942; but if there are any such financial and economic wizards in the Government, or in any Government Department, who can discover that an increase of 2d. or 6d. per week, or even 3/6 a week, will adjust the shrunken purchasing power of wages in 1942, as compared with 1939, then I should say that that person is a national benefactor; that his discoveries should be published at once, and that he ought to be permitted to give to suffering humanity, in this one respect, the benefit of his advice as to how to adjust present low wages conditions to the rise in prices that has occurred.

I think that the most cynical and ironical comment that could be made in connection with the present situation would be with regard to the decision of the Minister for Finance not to permit any part-time single officer to participate in that increase. Some such officers in the Post Office, in many cases, would be paid less than £1 per week. Some of them might have £1 per week; some might have 25/- a week, and some of them might have 30/- per week. Although these people are single, they may have to maintain aged parents, or younger brothers and sisters, or invalid brothers or sisters. Yet the Minister for Finance decided on that occasion that because such people would not, or could not, marry on their low wage of £1 per week they would not get any increase at all. Evidently, from the point of view of the Minister, the best way to get such people to marry is to squeeze them by giving them no increase in salary, in the expectation, apparently, that they will be consumed immediately with a passion to enter into the state of matrimony so as to get the increase in their wages.

Now, I think that anybody can hardly imagine a person with a wage of £1 a week contemplating matrimony, but evidently the Department of Finance lives so far away from the normal feeling of men and women that it expects that people should be willing and eager to marry on £1 per week and that, because such people either would not or could not marry on that miserable pittance, then they should be deprived of the bonus increase.

Since last year—indeed, since July, 1940—the bonus increase has now been lifted to a maximum of 7/-. Only full-time married officers can get that increase, and it includes the bonus awarded last year. If a full-time officer is unmarried, he can only get a bonus increase of 5/-, and if he happens to be an unmarried part-time officer, he can only get an increase of 3/- per week. Can anybody imagine this petty increase providing anything like adequate compensation for the shrunken purchasing power of the low wages of the Post Office staff in present circumstances? Can anybody imagine that it is equity or even approaching fair play to offer these petty increases to a staff which, by definite agreement, was assured that its wage standards would be regulated according to a rise or fall in the cost-of-living index figure? I shall now give the petty amounts offered to the staff in compensation for what they have lost—and just look at what they have lost! An officer in the Post Office, with a basic wage of 20/- per week—and, Heaven knows, that wage is low enough—is losing to-day, under the Government stabilisation proposal, and even with the Government giving credit for the emergency bonus increase-10/- per week. If his basic wage amounts to 30/- per week, he is losing 18/6 per week; if it amounts to 40/- per week, he is losing 24/9 a week. If the basic wage amounts to 50/- per week, he is losing 28/8 per week; if it amounts to 60/-per week, he is losing 32/6 per week; and if his basic wage amounts to 70/- per week, he is losing no less than 36/8 per week.

One has only to reflect for a few moments on these figures, and to remember that these are not annual or monthly losses, but weekly losses, to realise the unjust and unfair manner in which the lowly-paid staff of the Post Office have been treated under the Government stabilisation proposals. I put it to the Minister that he can easily confirm the truth of my assertion that there are in the Post Office large numbers of lowly-paid officers whose basic wage or whose combined wage is utterly insufficient to enable them to bear the heavy burdens which are imposed by the substantial cuts in salaries and wages made operative under the stabilisation proposals. I tell the Minister, I tell the public, that there are in the Post Office Department to-day many hundreds of young married officers who are absolutely in debt and who, in that state of financial impoverishment, are yet required to handle millions of pounds of the community's property each month and each year. They work at all hours of the day and night in order to serve the community, and I think it will not be gainsaid that they serve the community faithfully, efficiently and courteously. They perform onerous and responsible duties, and I think it will be admitted on all hands, having regard to their difficult task and to the regulations which enshroud them, that they discharge these duties in a manner which from time to time calls for, and begets, the admiration of the public they serve.

Unfortunately, the history of Post Office wages is a history of low wages and wretched incremental conditions. It may astonish the Minister to know that, low and all as are the basic maxima rates in the Post Office, it takes officers from 14 to 22 years to reach these low maxima. It would be difficult to discover in any other employment in this State a scheme of wage rates, based upon putting such impediments in an officer's way of reaching the maxima as have been devised in the calculation of Post Office wage scales. One would imagine that at this stage in our history it would not take an officer, for instance, 17 years to reach a basic wage of approximately 48/- to 50/-. That is the position in the Post Office, and because of that position, young officers are suffering from severe privations, owing to their low wages at all times and the low basic maxima which they attain only after service varying from 14 to 22 years. I know from my own experience that young married Post Office officials, with heavy rents to pay, with heavy domestic responsibilities, are carrying the community's property, running into thousands of pounds, while they are beset with the almost impossible task of making ends meet.

While they are carrying thousands of pounds belonging to the community, they are wondering how they are going to pay the rent next week, to pay the grocer, to pay the milkman or to buy clothes and shoes for those dependent upon them. I put it to the Minister that these facts, which can easily be confirmed if he wants evidence, disclose a situation, so far as wages in the Post Office are concerned, which calls for an immediate remedy. I know of no financial situation here which would justify the imposition of these hardships on the lowly paid staff of the Post Office. I put it to the Minister that he cannot justify them either on financial or economic grounds and that he dare not try to justify them on social grounds.

I speak here on this matter of the stabilisation of the cost-of-living bonus and the hardships which it has imposed for the lowly paid staff of the Post Office and of the Civil Service generally, in other words, for those entering the State service who are in roughly the same category as workers in private employment. I want to appeal to the Minister to give these people a fair deal and a square deal. They are entitled to nothing less. We put in our Constitution Article 45 which declares:—

"The State shall, in particular, direct its policy towards securing that the citizens (all of whom, men and women equally, have the right to an adequate means of livelihood) may through their occupations find the means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs."

If that is not just all "cod", and if it was not put in there just to deceive and ensnare people, the least the Government ought to do is to honour that Article and to observe it in respect of its own employees. To tell us that the State's policy shall be directed towards securing that citizens may through their occupations find a means of making reasonable provision for their domestic needs, while paying officers in the Post Office rates of wages that deny them an opportunity of meeting legitimate demands for groceries, clothing and other household necessities, unless they pawn their property, is a sheer mockery. The Minister for Finance, in the last resort, is the employer of civil servants. He has a moral responsibility for their well-being and for the payment of wages. I put it to the Minister that he must realise in his conscience that he is bound in duty to honour and discharge that responsibility by paying fair rates of wages and by recognising the necessity for decent conditions for those whom he employs.

I want to conclude by asking the Minister to examine personally and sympathetically the unfair way in which lowly Post Office employees are being treated under the operation of the stabilisation of bonus regulations. If he does examine the case fairly and sympathetically, I feel he must be convinced that, so far as these grades are concerned, there is an undeniable case, an unanswerable case, for improving their wages because the present wages are not sufficient to enable them to discharge their citizen and domestic responsibilities and are certainly not sufficient remuneration for the onerous, faithful and efficient services which they render to this community.

Deputy Davin has informed the House that in looking up recent returns of investments made in Great Britain he has discovered that associated banks in this country have invested in Great Britain a sum of approximately £161,000,000. He pointed out that that sum has grown in the last four years by something over £50,000,000. He went on to state that some of the moneys are invested at rates as low as 17/6 and that the rate operating over the aggregate sum of £161,000,000 is under 2 per cent. He suggested, more by innuendo than otherwise, that it was the policy of the banking institutions here to invest money abroad at the present time. I have no interest in, nor brief for, the banking institutions, but it may be of interest to see if the Minister can give us any information on this matter. Can he say what portion of the increased amount of money invested in external assets is due to the export of goods in the form of live stock and other commodities exported from this country? Our assets have appreciated, as our exports are greater than our imports— we are sending out more goods at present than we are importing. As a result, there has been over a period of years an appreciation of our assets.

Would the Minister also say what portion, if any, is due to direct investment at those low rates of interest? It has puzzled a great many people and appears to have puzzled some Deputies in the past. I remember that, in the debate on the Central Bank Bill, many Deputies pointed out that moneys were invested by banking institutions abroad at very low rates of interest, while at the same time high rates were being charged at home. It appears to me that they do so in order to strike a fair balance, what they consider a fair profit, if they have to accept a low rate of interest abroad. Those investments are not due to the banks but to our own commercial activity. I do not know what effort the Government has made to secure imports in exchange. If the banking institutions have to accept a very low rate of interest for moneys invested outside, it appears that, in order to strike what they call a fair profit, the rate at home is proportionately higher.

That appears to be a matter more relevant to a Budget debate.

I am only saying, in passing——

Other Deputies might not pass so quickly.

It was raised by Deputy Davin.

That fact is not conclusive proof that it is in order.

I would not have raised it at all but that it was raised by another Deputy. I ask the Minister if he would give the House information as to the amounts invested abroad.

Does the Deputy suggest that the Minister for Finance is answerable for the actions of the joint stock banks?

I do say that he is partly responsible for the fact that we have an appreciation of assets abroad.

The Minister has no responsibility for joint stock banks, their assets or liabilities.

The Minister has this responsibility, at any rate.

The Deputy cannot discuss it on this Estimate. If the Minister is not responsible for the action of those banks, why pursue the subject?

I say he has responsibility for the charge on currency.

I have no responsibility at all for that.

The Minister has no responsibility for the 50/- rate on currency?

On currency, yes, but that has nothing to do with the Estimate.

I would like the Minister to inform us what revenue we are deriving, or has been derived, in the last financial year from that rate of 50/- on currency.

The Deputy will get it in the report of the Central Bank, which was laid on the Table of the House.

When we talk about the rate on money, we cannot overlook that the high rate that is charged on currency is bound to react on the rate on money invested.

It does not arise on this Estimate.

Would the Minister say what interest is being charged for money on short-term loans to the Government—Exchequer bills—at the present time?

We have none.

On the question of post-war planning, I agree with Deputy Davin that the cost of building and reconstruction will be very seriously affected by the high cost of money. For building activities and other such purposes, money lent by the Government and by Government institutions is certainly very dear, and that is possibly due to the fact that the rates paid for Government loans are high. In the event of any loan being floated by the Government in the near future, I wonder if the Minister would be prepared to take the other Parties in the House into his confidence in discussing the rate of interest? It should be the concern of every Party in the House to try to have the rates on loans for State purposes reduced to the lowest possible rate at which money can be borrowed.

On the question of old age pensions, I would like to refer to the means test. I am sure every Deputy is experiencing complaints at the present time on that point. There appears to be very high valuation in the case of poor people— especially small farmers and labourers —of any little industry they may have, such as poultry or a cow or a couple of calves. In my opinion, the valuation assessed on an income of that sort is far too high, and is unfair and unreasonable. I believe that the director of old age pensions would be sympathetic on this matter, but the law is there and he is bound by it. A pension at the rate of 10/- per week is already low at present without trying to cut it any lower, and there are far too many pensions granted at a rate below the full amount. I hope that the Minister will look into that matter and deal with it sympathetically.

On Vote 8, I would ask the Minister the amount of draw-back paid on bounty on sugar made from homegrown beet. It is £600 this year, and last year it was as high as £26,000. Would the Minister say if that is entirely or mainly paid on condensed milk exports, and why there is such a substantial reduction during the present year? Does it mean that this is another commodity which we were exporting in substantial quantities in the past and which now is almost disappearing? Would he say what amount of sugar is involved, and the total quantity and value of the goods exported? I am not criticising the policy of paying a draw-back to firms who have been exporting goods under this heading, but I regret the fact that our trade in that regard has fallen.

It does not imply that the trade has fallen. It means that the bounty has ceased.

There is a draw-back involved.

There is payment of a bounty on exports of sugar.

There should not be any bounty at all now. It is a pure fraud. They are getting 1/- per cwt. to which they are not entitled. They got away with it, like many another firm.

Will the Minister tell the House what the position is?

Deputy Dillon has told you.

Tá ceist amháin agam chuig an Aire: conus a socrúitear scrúdúcháin i gcóir postanna ins an mBanc Ceannais; an mbíonn fógraí ins na nuachtáin ag cur síos ortha, ag rá cathain a bheidh scrúdú ar súil. Bhfuil baint ag Coimisiún na Stát-Sheirbhíse leis na scrúduithe sin; bhfuil na scrúduithe sin cosúil leis na scrúduithe bhaineas leis na bancanna eile; nó an "patrúntacht" an rud a gheibheas post do dhuine? Bhfuil comhacht ag an Aire i dtaobh na ceiste seo, nó ag na hoifigigh ins an Roinn Airgeadais? Is mithid dúinn athrú do dhéanamh agus postanna do thabhairt do na daoine a n-éirigheann leo go maith ins na scrúdúcháin ins na meán-scoileanna. Molaimse an méid sin don Aire.

Ba mhaith liom fios d'fháil ar rud eile atá im intinn agam: nuair iarrann duine an pinsean sean-aoise agus nuair a dhéanann Teachta a dhícheall chun an phinsean d'fháil gan éirigh leis san iarracht sin, conus is féidir le Teachta eile dul isteach mí ina dhiaidh sin agus pinsean iomlán d'fháil. Tá mé ad' iarraidh pinsean mar sin d'fháil le cúig bliana anuas, do dhuine im' Cheanntar féin. Is minic a rinneas mo dhícheall ina thaobh agus gur theip orm. Scríobhas, agus chuadhas isteach go Teach an Chustuim, agus theip orm. Mí ina dhiaidh sin, chím Teachta eile, agus fuair sé pinsean iomlán le haghaidh an duine sin. Is mithid stad do chur le himeachta mar sin.

I listened with great sympathy to Deputy Norton's plea on behalf of the lower-paid members of the Post Office staff. I think that the sufferings of people who have fixed incomes on a very low scale are very severe. I am more familiar, of course, with the case of the agricultural labourer who has 36/- a week. I am bound to say that, again and again, I stand in open-eyed amazement when I see a man with five children and with 36/- a week living. I do not know how he does it. I do not know of any statistician or social worker who can explain to me how a farm labourer with 36/- a week, with the prices of things as they are, is able to keep living and to maintain five or six children.

He is merely suffering.

That is the case I am trying to make. Assuming that he is suffering all that a human creature is capable of, assuming that he has given up tobacco and every other luxury he ever enjoyed, how does he still live? We all know what it costs to buy a pair of boots.

You must not visit them or you would know how they live.

I do not like to become too avuncular in the case of my neighbours. I am not in the habit, when I visit my friends, of asking how they live. I accept whatever hospitality I get. Nor should I like my friends to ask how I provide any hospitality I may afford them. But I remain in silent astonishment in the presence of people suffering under these appalling circumstances. My familiarity with the sufferings of the agricultural labourer makes me peculiarly sympathetic with the case Deputy Norton is making for the Post Office employee who, in some cases, is living on remuneration commensurate with that of the agricultural worker. While I feel that sympathy and feel it very genuinely, I find myself confronted with a problem which, I have no doubt, is present to the mind of the Minister for Finance. I do not think that there is any escape from this equation: if we want to preserve the purchasing power of the citizens at the same level as obtained pre-war, by providing them with a cost-of-living bonus on their basic wage proportionate to the rise in the cost of living, are we not confronted with this situation—that a purchasing power in the community equal to that of pre-war, with a diminishing amount of supplies, means inflation, which means higher prices for whatever supplies are available. These higher prices will weigh most heavily on those who have the smallest resources. I agree that if you had as comprehensive a system of rationing as obtain in England, you could meet that position by providing for every citizen a limited supply of goods at fixed prices and insisting that every citizen, rich and poor, get that supply every week. But we have not that in this country. The system of rationing here is extremely lax. It relates only to a very limited number of commodities and, if the purchasing power of the community is the same as it was pre-war, the price of everything not strictly rationed and controlled will go sky-high.

We have experience of people who are entitled to rations under the existing rationing scheme finding themselves unable to get them because the demand in the black market is sufficient to induce dishonest traders to put them into that market instead of selling them to the people entitled to them. I feel that, if we are to continue the struggle to prevent inflation much longer, we shall have to institute a much stricter form of rationing. I have no doubt that the Minister for Finance is having his mind directed to this situation. While he and I may be in substantial agreement as to the fundamental purpose of the policy the Minister is employing to avoid uncontrolled inflation, no economic argument will reconcile our people to seeing children obliged to go to school in Dublin barefooted because their people are unable to purchase shoes for them. I do not think I exaggerate when I say that, in some of the poorer districts in Dublin, children are going to school in what are little more than rags and, in a small number of cases, barefooted, because their parents are unable to get boots for them.

The Deputy is going considerably outside the Estimate of the Minister for Finance.

All this is being done in the sacred cause of avoiding inflation. While I sympathise with the Minister's desire to avoid inflation, I think you have got to take the risk of whatever inflation may attend upon the effort to relieve the circumstances of those in the low wage ranks. I have taken that view right from the beginning. If that involves a very much wider system of rationing, then I think we ought to prepare ourselves for that and face it. But I do not believe you can continue the existing system, in which wage restrictions tend to keep people in the lower wage brackets at a level which means that the children must go barefoot because their people cannot afford the shoes. I think that Ministers, who have the best intentions, Governments, with the best intentions in the world, who are taking the long view and are apprehensive of the remote consequences of inflation, may become so obsessed with that remote, if certain, danger that they will lose sight of what is right under their eyes, and that is, the rigidity with which they are sticking to their precautionary policy may precipitate, in the present, the very upheaval that they are apprehensive will eventuate if inflation were to get fully under way. I think prudent foresight is a good thing, but it is a foolish thing not to see the chasm under your feet, you are so anxious to avoid the pitfall on the horizon.

We must not underestimate the difficulty of the Minister for Finance. I think, situated as we are in the lee of Great Britain, with millions of pounds pouring in here all the time from our people who work there, and with a steadily diminishing supply of goods coming in, it is fearfully difficult to avoid inflation in this country.

It is impossible.

I think, in fact, the truth is that we are experiencing a very brisk inflation at the present time and it is the refusal to acknowledge that, and to make the necessary adjustments with those earning lower wages, that may precipitate trouble. I know I am going to bring "melia murder" around my head by stating this, but it requires to be stated, that, so far as national school teachers are concerned, so far as civil servants with three or four hundred pounds a year are concerned, and so far as any other section of the community is concerned, the plain fact is that, unless we are going to pull the whole community round our ears, persons with incomes of that size will have to face the fact that they must experience a certain measure of hardship in the period through which we are passing, and no effective relief can be given them by increasing their remuneration without precipitating a catastrophe.

I do not say what they are receiving is excessive: I do not think it is generous; but there are lots of things we have to bear with at present that we would not expect anyone to bear with in normal times. I am fully aware that where you have an unfortunate man struggling to keep up a family, his position is very hard. He is obsessed with his own personal and family difficulties, and it sounds very hollow in his ears to be talking economics when he is trying to keep his children at school. Undoubtedly if you try to restrict income at that level, individual cases of hardship will arise which no one would wish to eventuate —men with peculiarly heavy responsibilities, men in exceptional positions. But, talking generally, I do not think we can escape the conclusion that unless we are going to abandon ourselves to a tornado of inflation, persons in the higher income brackets will have to recognise that they must accept a lower standard of life than they enjoyed before the war.

It is far away from this Estimate to initiate a general debate on possible inflation and the counter measures to be taken, on the question of the salaries of civil servants.

I understood we were discussing the Estimate for the Office of the Minister for Finance.

I suggest that the whole argument with relation to salaries and the cost-of-living bonus had a bearing on the important issue of avoiding inflation and the grave consequences that would flow therefrom.

Is the Minister responsible in that connection?

How he can answer Deputy Norton's arguments unless he is, I cannot imagine.

Deputy Norton dealt mainly with the lower-paid civil servants, particularly in the Post Office.

I understood he dealt with inflation. If the Chair thinks I am going too far, I shall stop.

A full-dress debate on inflation is not in order. Many of these points would arise in a Budget debate.

I do not know how the Minister will answer Deputy Norton unless he can meet the implications of that. I know of no argument that he can put up against Deputy Norton, unless it is that the only reason we can withhold from the civil servants the bonus they all got in normal times is that if we give them the bonus the whole thing will blow up and, instead of giving them a benefit, we will do them an evil. I anticipate that that will be the Minister's reply.

I am trying to take a middle course. I think he is going too far. I am saying, in respect of all persons at a fixed income, that his rigid attitude is a mistake. I say that with the persons right down at the bottom there ought to be a recognition that it is right to take a risk now rather than precipitate a revolution. I know I am speaking to a Minister who is sympathetic and that I am not dealing with a reactionary. I say quite deliberately that if I were a man in this town with a fixed income and I discovered that the Government policy to avoid inflation required me to take the shoes off my children and send them to school barefoot in the type of weather we experienced for the last two days I would revolute, and I believe if the people did revolute on this ground only, that it wanted the wherewithal to put shoes on their children, nobody in the House would say: "Turn out the troops; mow them down." I think Deputies would say: "Whatever the remote consequences of meeting that emergency, we are in favour of meeting it and, if there are evil consequences hereafter, when they begin to manifest themselves we will take appropriate measures."

I am certain, if we can carry conviction to the Minister's mind that the remote evil will be less disastrous than the present hardship, no one will be more ready than he to alleviate the present hardship. That is the case I am trying to make. I do not believe, from any point of view, it is good to let the present situation go on.

Convinced as I am that increasing purchasing power while supplies are diminishing is going to produce inflation, with all its attendant evil results, I do not think that conclusion should debar us from considering whether we might not try to increase production of certain things that we can produce here—if necessary, borrowing the money wherewith to produce them—and distribute them, if needs be, free, provided that by doing that we acquire a tangible asset rather than a further accretion of our foreign investments. Suppose we increase the production of milk and alleviate, in some measure, the distress of very lowly paid or unemployed persons in our cities by ensuring that their children should at least have an abundant supply of milk, free if necessary, does the Minister agree with me, provided we could increase the production of milk from our own resources, that it would be a good thing and a sound thing to take such measures as might be necessary to get that increased production, distribute it amongst our own people, and thereby purchase the health and strength for children who would otherwise grow up in some degree crippled or inefficient? I venture to suggest that if we adopted that course we would purchase with currency at present intact the capacity to earn stabilised currency in the future.

If we continue to pile up external assets through saving on account of the scarcity of materials which prevents consumption, it seems to me that what is going to happen is that we must lend the saving either to Great Britain or to some country outside this, and that, ultimately, when currency is re-constituted after the war, as I believe it must be, our loans at present made will be repaid in the re-constituted currency. Well, now, if all loans of that kind are going to be repaid in devalued post-war currency, might we not as well take advantage of making the repayment in the devalued currency, always provided that we are going to get tangible assets without adding to our existing problems. There are two tangible assets that I see we could purchase at the present time. The first is health for young children growing up to whom that would be denied if poverty constrains their parents to impose malnutrition upon them, and, secondly, the reconditioning of the land. I am not going to expand that because I think it would be wandering pretty far afield if we were to proceed to examine every question on which we could borrow money.

I do say that our desire to avoid inflation should be qualified by two restrictions. The first is that the special problem of the poorer sections of the community should be kept in mind. The second is that one of the results of the measures requisite to prevent inflation is calculated to produce a large saving. In our state of affairs, as we are carrying on at present, that saving must go somewhere. It is going to Great Britain because it has nowhere else to go, and it is liable to be repaid in devalued currency. We might as well take advantage of this devalued repayment, always provided that we are going to purchase with that currency tangible and useful assets at the present time. Albeit I see a revaluation of currency post-war, let nobody in this House fall into the egregious error, which I have heard enunciated from Fianna Fáil Benches, that the external assets which we are accumulating at the present time are of no value. I have gradually come to regard myself as the Cassandra of this nation. I am continually warning the House of things that are about to happen, but nobody believes me. When they do happen, Deputies forget that I had warned them. I warn them now of this: that after this war the very existence of our nation will depend on our accumulated external assets. We will pass through the post-war period when nothing but the accumulated savings of our people during the war, invested in. Great Britain, will enable us to keep afloat. The existence of that raft on which to float after the post-war seas have settled down, and its storms have abated, will enable us to arrive at a modus vivendi with the rest of the world. Without these accumulated assets, I think we might be precipitated into an immediate and desperate disaster. Therefore, I beg of Deputies to keep a proportionate view of the value of our external assets, to rejoice in their accumulation, and whilst setting a due and proper value on them not to become their slave. Let us recognise that they are a useful servant to use post-war, and at the same time ensure that they will not be inflated by moneys which might be more profitably used for the purchase of tangible assets of enduring quality within our own community. I am sure the Labour Party will agree that certain hardships will have to be borne by all sections of the community, but I think if you proceed on the lines I have indicated, reasonable provision can be made for those on whom troubles bear most heavily at the present day, while the rest of us can get along as best we can.

I would like very much to see the Minister increasing the weekly amount paid to old age pensioners. At the present time it is very difficult for an old person to support himself or herself on 10/- a week. I know, of course, it is easy for me to ask the Minister to do this. I realise that he must take the necessary steps in order to get the money to give the increase. If the Minister is unable to grant the increase, I think he should at least consider carefully the old age pensioners who belong to the labouring class. They have to depend exclusively on the old age pension they get from the Government. They have no other means to pay rent for their houses, to buy milk, butter, potatoes, etc. They are in worse circumstances than the large number of old age pensioners who have rights reserved to them under deeds of assignment. I think that, at least, these old age pensioners should be supplied with free milk, potatoes and vegetables.

If the Minister is not in a position to grant these concessions to the old age pensioners, he should, I think, obtain for them the right to have the means rate restored to what it was before it was reduced by the Fine Gael Party: that is to say, they should be entitled to receive the full pension if their means do not exceed £26 5s. 0d. a year instead of the £15 12s. 6d. as at present. I also consider that the interest charged on money in the bank, or in hands, is too high. At present the rate is 5 per cent. on the first £400. I think the interest charge should only be that which the money earns. It appears to me to be absurd to have a person who has £100 in a bank assessed at 5 per cent. a year, if he only receives 1½ per cent. I consider that the interest charged on the market value of shares is too high. I could understand an assessment of 5 per cent. if a share was paying a good dividend, but where no dividend is paid why should an assessment of 5 per cent. be made? These are two regulations which the Minister might look into.

Deputy Norton put up a very good case on behalf of the Post Office officials. I wish to call the Minister's attention to the position of auxiliary postmen whose wages vary from 20/- to 30/- weekly, and in some rural districts are only 10/- weekly. These men must be ten years acting as auxiliary postmen before they receive uniforms and are out in all weathers. In view of what it costs to keep a family at the present time, I ask the Minister to give their case favourable consideration.

Mr. Byrne

Attention has been called by other Deputies to the conditions of postal workers, but I wish to refer to pensioners who left the service in pre-war days and who are now living on very inadequate pensions. Is there any hope that people who were in the service in days gone by, and who retired on what are now inadequate allowances, will get any bonus under any Emergency Order to enable them to meet the increased cost of living? As the means test in connection with old age pensions has been mentioned, I want to call attention to the attitude adopted by some officers in compiling the value of means. I know that it is not the desire of the Minister, or indeed of the officials, to prevent these old people getting pensions, but some officials seem to read the regulations as if it was their duty to give as little as possible to applicants, when really it is the desire of the Minister and of the Department to give poor persons the benefit of the doubt. I mentioned on a previous occasion the case of a blind pensioner who was told that he had means because he collected pence in the streets. The case was a sad one. I consider that it is not right to take into account in cases of that kind what people who are begging receive. That man was paying 5/- a week for a room, and he found it necessary to ask for pence so that he might pay the rent and be able to buy a penny dinner. When he had not a penny he went to the nuns and got a free dinner. As a result of some misleading information that man was prevented from getting a blind pension. In that case the Minister stated that the Department was not satisfied as to the extent of the blindness. The man never got an opportunity of going before a doctor. He was disqualified on the ground that he had means. It is to be hoped that the Minister will be able to do something in that case or that the applicant will get the opportunity of being examined by a doctor.

What is to happen poor people between the ages of 65 and 70 years who are not entitled to unemployment benefit or national health insurance? I ask those in charge of the county home to remember that they are not paid to give the least possible aid to the poor but to do everything they can to help them. They could not expect old people who are getting a grant of a half-crown weekly to exist on that amount at the present time. I urge that there should be a more generous application of the regulations as far as the means test is concerned. When the Minister's predecessor was replying to Deputy Hickey on a former occasion he stated that any means or money that was not belonging to a person as a statutory right was not to be taken into consideration in assessing means.

I know that the Minister is concerned for the welfare of Dublin and its people, and now that he is restored to health, I join with other Deputies in welcoming him back to the House. I know that he is ready to accept responsibilitiy, as well as criticism that he sometimes considers unfair, and I ask him to consider the condition of the poorest amongst us, who have to live on national health insurance, widows' and orphans' pensions and old age pensions. I also direct attention to the horrible conditions that exist in some of the poorer quarters of Dublin, where children are going to school without boots or stockings and with very poor clothing. I should also like to know if it is the intention to do anything about providing clothing and boots for these children. I suggested some time ago that it might be possible for the Government to buy up 100,000 clothing outfits for boys and girls and, if necessary, to subsidise such purchases, so that they could be sold to necessitous people at moderate prices on the instalment plan. To give a suit of clothes at 6d. or 1/- per week to a woman in the working-class quarters of Dublin who has 6, or 8 or 10 children would be a very gracious act on the part of the Government. They are about to do something by way of family allowances, but it is not enough. Some time ago the Minister anticipated me by saying that we would not be satisfied with that scheme. I am not satisfied with the allowance mentioned, but I do say that it is a great step in the right direction. I suggest to the Minister that he should take the matter in hands himself and see if anything can be done to provide clothes for the children of the City of Dublin whom we can see going round the streets barefooted and ill-clad, and who are living in tenement houses with broken windows without any blankets to cover them. I know that the Minister did his best to deal with the housing problem, but the war came along and stopped house building from going ahead. I appeal to the Minister to see that the women and children of Dublin will be given some relief from the terrible conditions under which they are living to-day.

I want to add my voice to what has been said in connection with old age pensions. It has been advocated that there should be an increase in the old age pensions. I know that legislation would be necessary to bring that about, but I think this is a good opportunity to request the Minister to do something to relieve the distress among that section of the community. I want also to refer to the application of the means test. It is very hard to understand how that test is applied in a great many cases. One Deputy spoke about the amount of interest that was taken into consideration when an application for an old age pension comes before a pensions committee. On an investment of £100, the interest is taken to be 5 per cent., when one knows quite well that the interest is not half of 5 per cent. In many cases, if a man has a goat or some fowl, in applying the means test a certain amount of money is put down against that man as income. Time and time again this Party has spoken against this means test. They have referred to certain instances in which men and women have been paying into a superannuation fund in their trade union. The moment they get beyond their labour, that superannuation allowance is paid to them. But, when it comes to the time when they are entitled to an old age pension, in consequence of the fact that they are drawing a certain amount of money per week from the superannuation fund, their pension is reduced. I came across a case recently in my constituency where a man who was out in the 1916 Rising received an I.R.A. pension. When it came to the time to draw his old age pension, that I.R.A. pension was taken into consideration, and his old age pension was reduced accordingly. Earlier to-day we were talking about gratitude. I think that the country does not require the Government to be so ungrateful to men of that kind, who went out in Easter Week and who were prepared to risk their lives in order that the country should obtain its freedom. As I say, when it comes to a question of giving such a man the old age pension, his I.R.A. pension is taken into consideration in order to prevent him from getting the full pension.

Deputy Norton spoke at great length on the question of civil servants, especially Post Office workers. I want to add my voice to what he said. I cannot understand how the Minister expects to get good service in the different Government Departments, especially in post offices throughout the country, with the miserable wage that is paid to workers, especially the lower paid ones. Deputy Stapleton instanced the case of auxiliary postmen who are only in receipt of wages ranging from 20/- to 30/- per week. These men have been prevented by the Stabilisation Order made by the Government in 1940 from getting what might be considered to be a pretty reasonable wage. I understand that, in consequence of the Stabilisation Order, a man whose basic wage is 20/- per week has been prevented from receiving a further 10/- per week.

Deputy Dillon talked about the dangers of inflation. I submit that inflation is here already so far as the working classes are concerned. Everything which they have to buy has soared rapidly in price, so that so far as they are concerned inflation stares them in the face. They have been prevented by Government intervention from securing sufficient to enable them to cope with the cost of living, which is soaring rapidly every day. In Great Britain during the last war the cost of living increased by 108 per cent. In this war, the cost of living in Great Britain has only increased by 29 per cent. In this country, it has increased by 60 per cent. Notwithstanding the fact that the cost of living has only increased by 29 per cent. in Britain wages have increased in some cases by 300 or 400 per cent., while wage increases here have been very small. In consequence of Order 83, two or three years of the war elapsed before anybody was able to get an increase, and the increases given since are not commensurate with the increased cost of living, so that, regardless of what Deputy Dillon has said, we have inflation here already so far as the working classes are concerned. Inflation is always used as a bogey by Governments and other people when it is a question of providing a worker with the means to live.

I should like to refer again to the question of the means test. It was brought to my notice the other day that, in the railway service, when a man reaches the age of 65 he gets a weekly allowance from the railway company. When he reaches the age of 70 and is entitled to an old age pension, the railway company either takes his pension away altogether or cuts it down. That is an example of other employers following Government lead. I suggest to the Minister that a company like the railway company, when a man who has rendered good service has been given a pension, should not be permitted to take away that pension or cut it down in consequence of the fact that the man had reached the age of 70 and was entitled to an old age pension. It is the headline set by the Government that is responsible for action of that kind. People who are drawing old age pensions at present are on the verge of starvation, and the country owes more to them than is being paid to them at present. The means test is being applied in a very mean manner. I suggest to the Minister that something should be done to remove it and that there should be an increase for those unfortunate people who are entirely dependent for a living on the old age pension.

Deputy Byrne has referred to the position of persons who have been in receipt of pensions for some time past, whose rate of pensions was fixed when the cost-of-living was not so high. Repeatedly, the Leader of this Party, Deputy Norton, has asked that some attention should be paid to these people, that some bonus should be attached to their pensions. I would appeal to the Minister to consider their case. These people rendered good and faithful service to the State, as Post Office workers, as teachers or as civil servants of some kind. I do know that in Egland bonuses have been paid in respect of some pensions. My attention has been drawn to the fact that a bonus has been added quite recently in respect of naval pensions. These people rendered faithful service, and the Minister should favourably consider the question of giving a bonus on top of the small pensions which some of them receive.

In supporting the appeal made by other members of the House in connection with old age pensioners, I wish to direct the Minister's attention to the position of old age pensioners in rural areas who are not allowed vouchers. They receive only 10/- a week although they may be only 100 yards outside the boundary of an urban area. I also wish to draw the Minister's attention to the position of forestry workers. Forestry workers are engaged on work of national importance. Many of them have to travel nine or ten miles to their work. They have to supply themselves with bicycles. Their maximum wage is 35/- a week. I consider that the Minister might have some case if the price of timber were not increased, but that is not the position. In County Wicklow, the workers who supply timber to the Dublin Corporation are in receipt of pre-war wages, while the Minister's Department is receiving prices much higher than pre-war prices for that timber. There is no justification whatever for the position by which forestry workers receive less wages than agricultural workers. The case was brought before the Wages Tribunal by the employees of a sawmill supplying timber to Dublin in competition with the Forestry Department. The employers' case before that tribunal was that they were not in a position to increase their employees' wages, although they wished to increase them, simply and solely because the Government have sawyers, assistant sawyers and men, at a maximum salary of 37/- a week, while the trade union rate of wages of a sawyer in a mill not two miles away is 50/- per week for a 48 hour week, plus bonus. They put up the case that the Government had their men working for such a small wage, against trade union regulations and everything else, and did not guarantee a full 48 or 54 hours' week. The men are stopped for wet days. The position of the forestry worker in rural areas very often is that he has only three days' pay in a week owing to wet weather. I ask the Minister specially to consider the forestry worker.

I join with my colleagues in the appeal made on behalf of the Post Office workers. These men have given loyal service to the State. How can we expect loyal service if we give such small wages? We have the position in certain areas that although vouchers are given, the recipients cannot get milk for them. I know an area at the present time where the dairyman refused to accept the voucher in exchange for milk. That is a serious position for these people, and I want to know what action the Government are taking in connection with it. The vouchers are there, but the people cannot get the milk unless they buy condensed milk. The dairyman will supply the milk for cash but not for vouchers.

I would ask the Minister to consider the matters that have been raised here this evening. I would ask him specially to consider the cases of the forestry workers. They have a great grievance, in that they are the lowest paid workers, considering the service they are rendering at the present time. I have appealed to them many times to leave the forestry work there. Unfortunately they are in such an economic position that they are unable to get to England and have no alternative but to accept this miserable wage that the Government have decreed must be their lot—35/- a week. I have already indicated that, before the Wages Tribunal, mill owners who were prepared to increase the wages, pleaded the small wages paid by the Government to their employees.

I hope the Minister in reply will give some encouragement to those men to remain at their work by allowing them to have the rates granted to other workers who appeared before the Wages Tribunal who, in support of their claim, put forward the fact of the high cost of living. I think it is most unfair for the Government to try to get a monopoly by paying small wages when other millers in competition with them have to pay trade union rates of wages, especially in view of the fact that the Department have increased their charges for the timber which they are selling to the people in the area or to the Dublin Corporation. I hope that, as a result of the appeal made from all sides of the House to-night, there will be a different outlook on the part of the Government towards men who have suffered silently in the past year or two and that the Minister will do something to improve their condition.

I take it that I have the permission of the Chair to reply to the variety of subjects which were raised, on the main Vote. There was a number of subjects raised on the Supplementary Votes that are down to-day for discussion and for which I am responsible. Deputy Davin raised a number of important issues. I suggest some of the matters that he raised are not matters for which the Minister for Finance has any responsibility. As the law stands at present, this House has no responsibility for one or two of the matters which Deputy Davin raised. May I say, first of all, I thank Deputy Davin for his kindly personal reference? As the law stands at present, the House has no responsibility for the joint stock banks, for their growing assets, if there are such, or for their liabilities.

Or their investments.

Or their investments. I know Deputy Davin would like to have the law otherwise. I know that he would like that we should have complete control of these matters as well as many other matters —I think I am not wronging him in that—that he would like that the Minister for Finance should be able to give any directions he pleased to the joint stock banks as well as to many other similar institutions in the country. But, that is not the law at present and the Minister for Finance does not control the joint stock banks, even those that have their headquarters inside our territory. He does not control them and he cannot interfere with the manner in which they conduct their business, in other words, how they invest their money, if they have money to invest, and what rate of interest they get for that money.

Or what rate of interest they charge the Government for services?

Oh yes. The Minister for Finance is seriously interested there. He is seriously interested in the rates that anybody from whom he is successfully able to borrow money wishes to charge him. He is very seriously interested there; that is true. But with regard to the banks, having said that I have no responsibility—and I do not want to be taken as accepting any responsibility—Deputy Davin asked for some figures and such figures as are available for me at any time, I will be always glad to get them and to give them. He asked for some figures with regard to sterling assets. The figures I have got are that in September, 1939, the Irish banks' sterling assets amounted to £117.2 millions, and that their liabilities amounted to £55.8 millions; net assets £61.4 millions. In September, 1943, the sterling assets were £195.9 millions, and the liabilities, £85.8 millions; net assets, £110.1 millions—an increase, roughly, of £40 millions.

Now, as I say, not accepting any responsibility for them, but desirous, if possible, to acquire and give to the House any information that may be available from any sources to me, I am giving these figures to Deputy Davin.

With regard to Deputy Davin's queries as to the activities of the Central Bank, it should be remembered that the bank is not very long in existence. It only came into official existence in February of this year, and, as to its activities, so far as its constitution permitted, they were reported, and the report was laid on the Table of the House. I do not know whether Deputy Davin saw that report, or if he knew of its existence, but it was laid on the Table of the House in June of this year. In any case, with regard to the questions asked by Deputy Davin as to the bank's activities, or such activities of the bank as are within its powers, as set out in the Central Bank Act, particulars will be found in that report, as I have said. I rather think, however, that Deputy Davin was anxious to know what control, if any, had been exercised by the Central Bank with regard to the rate at which money could be borrowed. Well, the powers of the Central Bank are limited in that regard—very limited. There are certain powers relating to moneys loaned to certain bodies, such as local authorities and others, and the bank has powers to fix the rate of rediscount with regard to moneys borrowed in certain ways, but these are the only powers that the bank has, to control costs of loans and, so far as I know, an opportunity has not yet been offered to the bank to exercise those powers.

With regard to fixing a rate of rediscount, there is a means there of influencing the value of money, and the rate at which it can be borrowed, but up to the present the bank has not been called upon to exercise the powers conferred on it by that section of the Act. So far as my knowledge goes, the bank has not been called upon, so far, to perform its functions in that regard. Accordingly, it may be said that, up to the present, the bank has not exercised, even so far as the legal power given to it is concerned, the influence that, perhaps, Deputy Davin might desire with regard to the question of cost of money.

Have you not three bank directors on the board?

We have, and that is according to law.

Why not ask them to try to give us cheaper money, for local as well as national services?

Well, the Central Bank itself does not loan money for such purposes, and is not empowered to do so.

No, I admit that, but it is rather unfortunate.

That may be Deputy Davin's view, but it might or might not be wise to let the bank have that power. When the Bill was going through this House, the Dáil could have given that power to the bank, but evidently it did not think it proper to do so. Deputy Davin also asked about the possibility of the introduction of a Supplementary or Emergency Budget during the present year. There is no likelihood of it. There will be a Budget, please God, next May, but I do not see any likelihood of any Supplementary or Emergency Budget being brought in before that.

Deputy Norton gave us, at considerable length, the history of the cost-of-living bonus. With its earlier history, of course, this House is not concerned. This State took over the system that existed in 1922, and that system remained in operation. Deputy Norton told us that the cost-of-living system worked up and down until some time after the outbreak of this war, when our Government decided, or when the Minister for Finance announced that the cost-of-living bonus figure was to be stabilised. That, in Deputy Norton's view, and in the view of others, as also, perhaps, in the view of some of those who were hit in their pockets by the stabilisation of the cost-of-living bonus, may have been a very wrong and unjust thing, but that decision was taken with full knowledge of the charges that might be levelled against the Government, and against the Minister for Finance as the mouthpiece of the Government: as to whether, for instance, it was proper and just to deprive the civil servants of the benefits that would accrue to them by allowing their salaries and wages to go up in accordance with the various rises—steep rises, admittedly— that have taken place in the cost of living since, and even before, the stabilisation in the cost of living came into being. The sole purpose of the Government was to endeavour to control inflation: to endeavour to see to it that, particularly, the least well-off people of the community should be saved from—I think I can use the word —the horrors of grave inflation, as experienced not so long ago in many countries in Europe where inflation was allowed to run without control. I think it is admitted everywhere, by anybody who has taken any serious interest in the matter, that if inflation were allowed to develop without control, and to any serious extent, in this country, the very first people who would be hit, and hard hit, would be the poor.

The rich can look after themselves, but if inflation is allowed to get control of the currency machinery in the country, then the people who would be the first to suffer and suffer most severely—and there would be practically no remedy for their suffering— would be the poor and the lowly-paid people. What the Government did in stabilising wages at a certain cost-of-living figure was intended as an endeavour to safeguard the position for the poor and the least well-paid people in the community as a whole, including civil servants.

I admit that inflation to some extent does exist; it would be foolish not to admit it because it is obvious. We are in a very difficult and complex situation, surrounded as we are by a world at war. We are in particular relation to one country at war where money is no object, naturally, because the country is fighting for its life. Many of our workers, owing to the scarcity of raw materials in this country, have had to go there to look for a living. They are offered big wages, increasing rapidly ever since the war started. Much of the money accruing to Irish workers is sent over here and that causes a certain amount of inflation. Here, on the contrary, on account of our special position, we have a very difficult situation. The quantity of materials is growing less and less and it is becoming daily still more difficult to keep those who are working in continuous employment. Even when wages are increased, as they have been increased in many cases in this country, we know that it means, and must mean on account of our situation, that the tendency because of the increased amount of money put into circulation, is to increase still further the cost of living.

What is the opposite to that, then?

That is the position and Deputy Norton cannot deny it. Wages have been increased, perhaps not sufficiently to satisfy some of the Labour Deputies, but there have been considerable increases given to workers in industry, to various classes of workers outside, and to some extent to our own workers —a modest increase, it is admitted— but even with those increases, though some may say they are inadequate, many of the people who got them are no better off. They cannot buy shoes because the shoes are not there. We experience difficulties in getting raw materials to manufacture shoes and clothes. The same thing applies in England where the wages are very much higher. The people there are restricted in what they can buy. They get liberal wages and one reason, probably, why so much money is coming over here from Irish workers in England is that they can find no use for it there. They can get only limited quantities of cigarettes and tobacco to buy. Even in the case of beer, though I believe it is in greater supply proportionately than tobacco, people have to stand in queues in bars in England, where the money is so free and plentiful, in order to get what they regard as a sufficiency of that liquor.

That is our position in regard to the introduction of the cost of living stabilisation Order. Deputy Norton may say that it has not worked and ask why not let these people have the full benefit of the increased cost of living. If everybody were to have full compensation for the increased cost of living as compared with 1939, and if we were still faced with an insufficiency of supplies of various commodities that are generally regarded as necessary, some even as essential, to life, taking it all round, the people who got these increases would not be one whit better off and might be much worse off. You would have started then on the high road to inflation, and if we started on that road it could end only in something like the position about which I am sure most Deputies have read if they have not had personal experience of it, that arose in some countries on the Continent after the last war. Nobody wants to see that condition of affairs brought about in this country, Deputy Norton I am sure least of all, but there is no other prospect before us if we with our eyes open allow ourselves to be forced to permit the free inflation of the currency here.

You cannot prevent it so long as you are tied to the British £.

You can prevent it to a limited extent, and we have done so. We have held our position fairly well. As Deputy Dillon said here to-day, there are some things you can do and some things you cannot do even with regard to inflation. We have held the position here fairly well, and if one considers what might have happened, how many people might be not only without shoes and clothes but without food of any kind to keep them alive, one must recognise that on the whole the country has not fared badly. Individuals here and there may have suffered, and civil servants, of whom Deputy Norton spoke so eloquently here to-day, may have suffered more than others but, on the whole, this country, considering that we were situated in a most difficult position, financially and economically, has come through a very difficult situation in most troublesome times remarkably well, and with very little cause of complaint on any side.

The wages of workers in the Post Office of which Deputy Norton spoke, may in relation to present circumstances be lower than they were in 1939 and it may be harder for these people to face up to the difficulties of the times. The wages in the Post Office service have always been low for certain classes of workers, but even these workers have some advantages that are not open to the ordinary worker in outside employment. That fact has to be taken into account. Deputy Norton asked to-day, as he frequently asked before: "Why does not the Government control prices; if they attempted to control prices the situation might not be so bad as it is?" The Government has attempted, with striking success, to control prices. It has not put up anybody against the wall and shot him for black marketing, as has happened in countries in Europe.

Who is supposed to cheer that?

I hope that Deputy Norton will.

The worker is supposed to cheer the fact that you did not shoot the black marketeers.

What does Deputy Norton say should be done?

That is your problem.

Short of that extreme course, the Government has tried hard to control prices. Even in countries where people have been shot, they have not succeeded in wiping out the black markets. I do not think that this House would approve a law giving power to a Government to take life for such an offence but, even if it did, it would not stop attempts at black marketing and it would not help you to control prices. Admittedly, prices are high. The cost of materials of all kinds is high. But there is a war on and the scarcity here is as great as, if not greater than, it is in any neutral country of which I know. We have come through the war period with remarkable success for all sections of the community. The poor, as well as those not so poor, know that. We have spent some millions in addition to what was spent pre-war in an effort to meet the position of the poor and to enable them to live through these difficult and dangerous times. I do not say that it will not be necessary for the Government to do more. The Government has always the difficulties of the poor, particularly, in mind. That is very close to its heart and it has acted accordingly. Reasonable men who calmly sit down and examine what has been done by the Government in an effort to meet the situation, so far as the Civil Service and the rest of the community are concerned, must agree that the situation has been fairly met up to the present. While many have suffered and many have had to live with less of the goods they thought necessary for life in days gone by, anybody considering the situation calmly must admit that it compares favourably with that of any other country, not at war, in Europe, without going further.

Compare the social services with those existing in the Six Counties.

That is a country at war and I do not think it is fair that conditions here and in Britain should be compared. There is no just comparison between what the old age pensioner gets in Britain and what he gets here.

I am referring to the Six Counties.

Unfortunately, that is not our territory. I wish it were. They would, probably, give up all they have in the way of social benefits for the opportunity of coming in here and being at peace if they had an opportunity of deciding for themselves.

D'iarr an Teachta O Briain orm an rabhas sásta leis an gcaoi ina gcaitheann Coláiste na hOllscoile an méid airgid a gheibheas sí on Dáil ar mhaitheas na Gaedhilge. B'fhearr an cheist sin do chur ar an Aire Oideachais ach, ós rud é gur chuir an Teachta an cheist orm-sa, caithfe mé a rá nach bhfuilim sásta. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil éinne a bhfuil a chroidhe san Ghaedhilg sásta le staid na Gaedhilge sa Choláiste sin. Ach ní féidir linn, san Tigh seo, cur isteach ar obair na hOllscoile. Tá Coláiste Ollscoile Áth Cliath agus an dá Choláiste eile saor. Iarrann lucht na hOllscoile orainn suim airgid a thabhairt dóibh agus gheibheann siad méid áirithe i gcóir na bliana. Ach tá an Ollscoil saor an t airgead do chaitheamh mar is rogha léi féin. Ní féidir leis an Tigh seo ceist do chur ar lucht na hOllscoile i dtaobh conus a caithtear an t-airgead. Ach do chuir an Teachta Ó Briain ceist orm agus táim á freagairt agus ag tabhairt mo thuairime fhéin dó. B'fheidir go mbeadh seans eile againn an cheist seo do phlé. Tá roinnt airgid sa mbréis á iarradh orainn agus ni féidir an t-airgead san do thabhairt gan údarás ón Dáil. Ma thagann an cheist ós ar gcóir, b'fhéidir go mbeadh seans ag an Teachta Ó Briain, agam féin agus ag Teachtaí eile an cheist seo na Gaedhilge do chur fé dhíospóireacht.

Do chuir an Teachta O Cinnéide ceist orm maidir leis na postanna san mBanc Ceannais. Níl aon bhaint ag Coimisinéirí na Stát-Sheirbhíse leis na postanna so. Tá an Bord saor a chuid oibritheóirí do thogha ar a dhóigh fhéin. Ach tá dualgas ar an mBord rialacha do cheapadh agus is éigin na rialacha so do chur chugam-sa. Tá údarás agam na rialacha do scrúdú. Má tá cléirigh a teastáil ón mBord, is éigin scrúdú oscailte do bheith ann agus, imease na n-abhar scrúduithe, caithfidh an Ghaedhilg do bheith ann. Ach níl aon bhaint ag Coimisinéirí na Stát-Sheirbhíse leis na postanna so.

Amongst the subjects that were raised often by Deputies on this Vote is the question of old age pensions. Some Deputies appealed for an increase in the amount of the pension, and others asked for improvements with regard to the administration of the Old Age Pensions Acts that would be of benefit to pensioners. I would like to say that the old age pensions bill at present is a very heavy one, over £3,750,000, and is increasing. The number of old age pensioners is increasing. I suppose the Minister for Finance should not be thankful for that, but I do not object to it. In proportion to our population, we have a larger number of old age pensioners than our neighbouring country, so often referred to, Great Britain. This year we had to add well over £100,000 to the Estimate because of an estimated increase in the number that will be drawing pensions. Of these, nearly 98 per cent., I think, draw the full 10/-. With all the talk as to the means test and how it is depriving people of the pension, nearly 98 per cent.——

Would the Minister mind giving the figures in receipt of the full amount?

I will get them.

There are 21,492 in receipt of pensions under 10/- and 124,000 in receipt of the full pension. That does not fit in with the percentages.

I will get the exact figures. Last year, Deputy Davin suggested that, as a result of the confidential reports made to the investigating officers of the Department of Finance concerning the means of applicants, some cases were turned down and refused pensions. I want to make it clear to Deputy Davin and the House that the Revenue Commissioners or their officers do not adjudicate on old age pensions: all they do is investigate the means of all claimants whose claims are sent to them by the Old Age Pensions Committees. In the year ending 30th June, 1942, the number of claims received and finally determined was 14,699. Of these, 84 per cent.—12,400—went through without objection by the revenue investigating officers. If the officer thinks that the recommendation of the committee is not proper or just on the information he has, he sends in an appeal to the adjudicating officers in the Department of Local Government. The number of appeals was 2,221, or 15 per cent., which is relatively a very small percentage. What happened to those appeals? The number of appeals decided against the claim, not by the officials of the Department of Finance but by the appeals deciding officers in the Department of Local Government and Public Health, was 1,163, or 52 per cent. of the cases appealed. The number of appeals decided in which the claimants did not receive any pension was 812, or 37 per cent. I will let the Deputy have a copy of the figures.

Is it a fact that 21,500 pensioners are at the moment in receipt of less than 10/- a week, as a result of the operation of the means test?

The figure is about that.

That is the figure the Minister gave to me.

Yes, the figure is correct. But what does that prove? It proves that, in these cases, the people were not entitled, under the law, to receive the full pension. The vast bulk of those who applied for old age pensions do get the 10/- a week.

Hardly 98 per cent.

I am wrong; I am sorry; it is 86 per cent. Old age pensions are so numerous that even an increase of 1/- a week would mean a big amount. An increase of 5/- a week, as suggested by some Deputies, would mean an increase of 50 per cent. on £3,750,000, or over. The Minister for Finance and the Government have to consider where the money is to come from. This country is already pretty heavily taxed. Our income-tax is 7/6 in the £. Is that not a big tax on income? The tax on commodities that are in general consumption, commodities which are suitable for taxation, is already pretty high. The tax on beer and spirits is very high. I wonder would it bring us in, relatively speaking, an amount sufficient to offset increased pensions if the taxes on these commodities were raised? That is a matter that I have to bear in mind whenever the Budget is under consideration. The tax on tobacco is very high. It brings us in an enormous sum.

If I were to increase old age pensions, to increase wages here and there, as I am asked to do, I would have to consider where I am to get the money. I have to get most of the money out of the taxpayer. What am I going to tax next? Where is the subject for taxation that will bring us in an extra £1,000,000 or £2,000,000? These are the things the Minister for Finance has to consider. I know it will be very difficult to find the sum necessary to finance the children's allowances that this House will be asked to consider in the next week or two. That is going to cost a very considerable additional sum this year and, if we are to find money for that, I wonder where I am to turn to get that money, and also the money necessary to meet all the demands put up here. Cases were made from various benches here for increases in relation to a variety of things that, perhaps, should be increased.

Some people say we can borrow. You must not borrow for social services; you must not borrow for what are not emergency matters in any sense of the word. There will be no decrease, but rather an increase, in social services and we must take the money for those services out of the taxpayers' pockets; there is no place else to get it. If there are emergency services established, they are something that it might be reasonable to ask the next generation to bear a portion of. It would not be unreasonable to ask the next generation to bear some portion of the emergency cost imposed upon us by this war, and some borrowing in that case is permissible, but we could not borrow for the type of social service on which we are asked here, sometimes eloquently, to spend very large sums of money.

The Minister did not put forward that argument when he was looking for the £5,000,000 or £7,000,000 for the Army.

That is not a social service.

I know it is not, but you did not put up that argument when you got the £7,000,000 or £8,000,000.

I did put it up, and in balancing our Budget we got it.

What percentage of the population receives old age pensions?

The total number this year is 147,000.

A shade over 5 per cent. In England men of 65 and women of 60 would represent 12 per cent.

And they get better pensions.

We have not given pensions at 60 yet—or at 65, though demands that we should do so have been put up.

Who checks the Budget, whether you balance it or not?

The Dáil, and Deputy Davin is one of the severest critics.

The Auditor-General in the Bank of Ireland.

The Auditor-General in the Bank of Ireland has nothing to say to it. If we are anxious to borrow money, people are entitled to look at our Budget to see whether or not we are paying our way properly. I am torn between two loyalties oftentimes when I listen to appeals made here about old age pensioners, poorly paid workers, blind pensioners and so on. I would like to be generous, to be just to everybody. To nobody in this House can it give greater pleasure than to me to increase generously pensions and wages for those who are entitled to an increase. But, in the position of Minister for Finance, I have to look at the other side of the picture. Some Deputies here may say, irresponsibly, that we should borrow. If they were in my position they would not dream of borrowing for any service than cannot be considered an emergency service.

Do you not always borrow to balance the Budget?

For the emergency period, I believe it is right and proper in order to balance the Budget, but you must not borrow for social services or for increased wages for foresters or anybody else.

You do not want to.

It is not that I, do not want to. This House would be entirely wrong in giving me permission to borrow for such services. I think what I have said answers the points put about the necessity for increasing wages, salaries and social services. The answer is a general one, but it is one that to thoughtful people should be convincing. Where a special case is made in respect of hardship of any kind to any set of officials, or any individuals, I am always prepared to examine it sympathetically. I received a deputation from a Civil Service body about seven or eight weeks ago. I thought I would have been in a position to give them an answer at an earlier date. I promised the deputation that I would personally examine the case they had made carefully and sympathetically. I have carried out my promise to some extent. I have not finished my examination yet, but when I have examined the case that they put up eloquently to me and the similar case made by Deputy Norton here to-day, I must look at the other side of the balance sheet. If I can find that, without grave risk of increasing the dangers that do seriously exist when uncontrolled inflation is allowed to grow in a country, I can do anything to ease the situation for civil servants, particularly of the lower classes, and paid workers amongst them, I will be very happy to do it.

Question put and agreed to.
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