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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Mar 1944

Vol. 92 No. 18

Committee on Finance. - Vote on Account, 1944-45 (resumed).

All I have to say in conclusion is that, on the question of milk, there is something wrong which surely could be remedied by understanding between both Parties, whether it be by subsidy or otherwise. I hope that the Government will take notice of that and that the price of milk will be brought within reach of the workers. On the question of the cost of living generally, I am sure that the Minister and every other member of this House, will agree with me when I say that commodities like clothing and boots are at present outside the reach of the ordinary worker. The organised industrial worker was regarded as fairly well treated, but to-day, out of the wages that comes into his home, he is not able to get the price of a suit of clothes or a pair of boots. I do not see where the money will come from for these commodities because his wages are only barely sufficient to buy very plain food. The price of a pair of boots for a child has gone from 5/11 to 21/-. I would be quite pleased, and I am sure all workers would be pleased, to pay 21/- if we were convinced that those engaged in the production of the boots got a proportionate increase.

In regard to the produce of farms in County Dublin. I am sure that many Deputies are aware that a load of cabbage sent to the market is sold very often for as little as 12/-, but I am sure that the ordinary purchaser will not get it at a proportionate price. The price usually charged on the retail market puts things like cabbage beyond the reach of the people. Owing to the low price which the farmer gets for his crop, it is not worth his while to buy feeding for his horse or to pay a man to take it to the market. We know that some people are making huge profits while they are employing their staffs under very bad conditions. I have one practical suggestion to remedy the position which is being criticised by the Deputies who have been talking about increased taxation. If we have social services, we must pay for them, and I would like those who criticise them to tell us which services, in their opinion, should be withdrawn. I think there is general agreement that certain sections are not looked after at all, and I would like those who have been criticising the Estimates to come forward and tell us what services should be cut out and what should not. Before I close, I would like to say that I am satisfied that the farmers are not getting exorbitant prices, nor even sufficient prices, for some of the food they produce. Every person in the nation is looking to the farmers and their workers, and will continue to look to them until this crisis is over, to save the nation. It is no exaggeration to say that the nation is dependent on them to-day, and I appeal to the Government to give the farmer every help they possibly can, and every consideration he is entitled to so that he may be put in a position to produce the nation's food and to pay his workers a wage that would attract them to stay on the land, a wage that would enable the worker to maintain his dependents in a reasonable amount of comfort.

It is obvious that turf production is becoming more important every day. I consider that the Government should do everything in its power to produce the maximum quantity of turf this year. I am under the impression that we are not producing as much turf as we should when one considers the resources at our disposal. It is necessary for turf production that we should spend large sums of money in draining our bogs and in the construction of bog roads. If the bogs are not properly drained, it is obvious that we cannot produce good quality turf, because the best of the turf is in the lower layers of the turf banks. If these banks are not drained we cannot get this good quality of heavy turf. Unless you construct good bog roads it is clear to everyone that it is only a waste of time for the farmers to cut turf when they cannot move the turf from the bog. In June last year we had a very wet summer, and as a result, the farmers were unable to remove their turf. The bog roads were water logged and we find that even to-day there are thousands of tons of good turf lying in the bogs— turf badly wanted at present—and I think the first step the Government should take is to see that proper roads are constructed. I admit that the Board of Works have done excellent work in this matter, but they appear to decide the question whether a bog should be repaired or a bog drained on the basis whether it is a benefit to unemployment locally rather than to turf production. I think the Board of Works should decide the question that these roads should be constructed if we are to increase the production of turf. They should not take into account only the number of unemployed men in the locality.

I have heard a number of city Deputies complaining of the large quantity of wet turf sold in Dublin. I am sure that Deputies will be surprised to know that in country towns we were all compelled to use inferior turf this year because of the fact that the summer was exceptionally wet. Even the farmers themselves had to use inferior turf.

I have looked into this matter and I find that the rainfall in South Kerry was ten times greater in June, 1943, than in June, 1942. Everyone knows that turf production depends on the fine weather. One could not expect that we would get as good quality turf in 1943 as we did in 1942.

I should like now to refer to turf mould. City Deputies have complained very much about that, and they are quite justified in doing so. Turf mould is generally caused through negligence. If turf is not properly saved and ricked at suitable times, there will be large quantities of turf mould. Turf cut in wet weather or during periods of frost is liable to break. Unless the turf can be saved in periods of fine weather there will undoubtedly be large quantities of turf mould. Just consider to what extent turf is handled at the present time. It is carted from the bog to the roadside, it is then put into lorries and brought to the railway station. It is thrown from the lorries into the railway waggons, carried long distances, again loaded into lorries and finally ricked in the vicinity of towns or cities. Everyone knows the characteristics of turf. It cannot be abused and, if there is turf mould in these ricks, I do not think the Government can be held responsible.

I have considered this matter of turf production very carefully. I realise that there is undoubtedly wet turf being sold in the city. I have asked myself how this position could be remedied, and the only solution I can find is that it is essential that the Government should have inspectors or foremen to see what quality turf is being loaded into the waggons. It takes a considerable time for a lorry to be unloaded and any man familiar with turf can see at a glance whether it is inferior or otherwise. If it is inferior the lorry driver should be made take it back to the owner.

I think it is a ridiculous policy for the Government to allow inferior turf to be conveyed to Dublin before it is condemned. Consider the valuable space that is taken up in railway waggons conveying this type of turf. It appears to me to be absurd that the Turf Board should condemn or reject turf at its destination rather than at its source. That is a matter the Government should carefully consider. It would not cost very much to appoint foremen. They would be quite prepared to do the work for £3 or £4 a week. I do not suggest we should send down inspectors from Dublin but I do suggest that if anyone is appointed, he should be a man familiar with turf production; that is the only type of person who should be employed in that work.

With regard to the attitude adopted by Fuel Importers, I believe the procedure is that when they enter into contracts with the producers there are conditions set out that if the turf is not up to a certain standard Fuel Importers can make certain deductions. I am not complaining, because if people send wet turf to Dublin or other places it is quite proper that deductions should be made. But I do object to the procedure adopted by Fuel Importers. For instance, if a man sends turf from Kerry, a month later he gets his cheque and possibly there is a statement to the effect that so much of his turf was wet and they were obliged to make certain deductions. Would it not be better if Fuel Importers, immediately the turf was inspected at Dublin, notified the person concerned that the turf was wet and then that person would have an opportunity of sending an agent to inspect the turf. If the agent is satisfied that the turf is of good quality, the owner should be entitled to sell his turf elsewhere. That matter is causing some dissatisfaction in South Kerry and, as a result, very few persons there send turf to Fuel Importers.

Another point is that I believe the merchants in Dublin can enter a waggon, select the good turf, and leave what they consider the inferior turf there. That is a most unfair procedure. It might be fair enough if the turf were mixed. In our own areas in Kerry we can get only mixed turf. I consider it is a wrong policy to allow any merchant to enter a waggon and leave it to him exclusively to decide whether that turf is inferior or otherwise. I was glad to hear the Minister stating that it was intended in South Kerry that the county council should cut turf this year. The council did not cut turf last year or the year before. I do not know the reason why, but it is certainly amazing to learn that the council did not cut turf during 1942 and 1943. In 1941 over 15,000 tons of turf were railed by the county council from Cahirciveen station.

Deputy Davin stated that it is intended that the county councils should pay their employees at the rate of 10½d. an hour. I think that amount is entirely too low. The work is hard and the men should get a decent wage. I do not suggest that 10½d. is a proper wage to pay any man engaged in turf production. The Minister should see that the slean man is paid a higher rate than the pike man. If there are good slean men and if they are paid a good wage they will work hard and you will find the production of turf will be increased. It is the slean men who give the output and sometimes they can cut so much that the pike men will be compelled to work.

I know that, for years prior to the emergency, in the turf production areas in South Kerry, the farmers, when employing labour, generally paid the slean man at a higher rate than the pike man. If the farmers, who have been engaged in turf production all their lives, have found it profitable to do that, the Government should follow their example. I have heard it stated that the cost of turf is too high and, on the other hand, the producers declare that they are not paid a sufficiently high price. I think there is too much of a difference between what is paid to the producer and what is paid by the consumer. I cannot understand where the difference goes, but probably the loading and handling expenses are high. At the same time, I think the price to the consumer is entirely too high.

Mr. Larkin

I rise principally because of the speech made by the Deputy who has just spoken. I think it was a very reasoned speech. The Deputy applied himself in a reasonable way to the fuel problem. I only wish the Minister concerned with fuel was in attendance, but of course Ministers have other duties. Possibly the Minister for Finance will convey to his colleague at a later stage the points that were raised.

Deputy Healy shed some light on fuel production and he dealt with aspects that until now were touched upon only by Deputies from the City of Dublin. We are usually told, when we approach agricultural and turf subjects, that we approach them with a Dublin mentality. We pay for that Dublin mentality; we pay very bitterly for ineptitude, incompetence and unbusinesslike methods. When you get a man from the extreme end of Ireland admitting that there is, on the part of the Government of which he is a supporter, ineptitude and incompetence, there are, I think, times when, if we seem to be critical of the Government's lack of understanding and lack of business methods, we are somewhat justified.

All the Deputy said in connection with turf is true. He gives a reasonable excuse why the county council did not produce turf last year in Kerry— he referred to the exceptional weather. The fact is, however, that we did get turf from Kerry last year. What kind of turf did we get? He said that some of it was rejected, and he rightly objects to the merchant being the deciding factor as to whether that turf is consumable or not. In ordinary business no one would allow the buyer to be the deciding factor.

You must get to the root of this lack of business ability. Who appointed Fuel Importers or the Turf Development Board? What about the public, the turf consumers or the turf workers? This industry is one of the most valuable we have, coming next in importance to agriculture. It will be our last line of defence as regards keeping industries going in this country and keeping warm the homes of the workers and other people. We are not concerned about these other people, despite what my friend Deputy Liam Cosgrave may say. He is very concerned, apparently, about the 3,000 who have all the wealth and all the money in this country, but I am more concerned about the 3,000,000 who are the workers and producers of this country. Why do not we approach this question in a reasonable way? Take the case of those merchants who have been dealing with coal for all those years—men who, naturally, are not concerned with the production of turf and who do not like it. Naturally, if these people could get coal imported to-morrow, they would not handle your turf.

I remember that during the 1929 strike here in Dublin a certain paper the Irish Times, got up a fund for the relief of distressed Irish Protestants, to supply them with fuel. A certain firm here advertised that it had a large quantity of old railway ties and certain other types of fuel for distribution during that period of emergency, and that they were prepared to handle it. They did so until the first load of coal came in when the strike was over, and then they did not care whether the distressed people concerned were Protestants, Catholics or Mahometans— they just chucked them there, and proceeded to import the coal. Accordingly, I say that if, to-morrow, coal could be easily imported on the quays of Dublin, there is not one of those merchants who would handle even one ton of turf.

All we are asking is that the Minister for Supplies should approach this matter in the right way. He has proved himself to be inept, and has made so many mistakes that I think we are entitled to point out his mistakes to him, but it would seem, from his speeches, that we have got no right at all to speak on this subject. He was approached both publicly and privately by people who wished to enlighten him about certain things of which he does not know the alphabet. For instance, take the case of the turf that is clamped up here in the Phoenix Park. They bring up the turf from Kerry. It is loaded at the station there, and nobody cares whether it is good-quality turf or not. It has to come up that long drag from Kerry to Dublin, and I think that the freightage is 17/11 per ton.

Now, we all know how many tons of turf you can get on a three-ton or even a six-ton wagon. As a railway expert, Deputy Davin told us yesterday, you may be only able to get three tons of turf on a six-ton wagon, and, as Deputy Lynch has pointed out, the merchant who is going to retail that turf is the man who decides whether it is good turf or not. What he considers is good turf he puts aside for his own customers, and what he thinks is not presentable he throws aside and it lies there until it turns into mould. May I also put it to the House that more is lost by repeated handling of turf, because turf will not stand repeated handling. A certain amount of handling is necessary. There is, of course, the removal of the turf from the bog, the loading of it in wagons, and the clamping of it when it arrives in Dublin. That, however, is only three handlings, but in some cases there are anything from 20 to 30 handlings of the turf by the time it is clamped here in Dublin.

As I pointed out, about three years ago certain prominent people here, including the Lord Mayor and Aldermen of this City, approached the Government with a view to securing approval of a scheme for distribution of turf in and around the suburbs of Dublin. It was pointed out at the time that that scheme would save the cost of carriage and petrol consumption, and would enable the thing to be done in a business-like way; but we were stopped, and we are still stopped so far as that scheme is concerned. Now they have clamped something like 100,000 tons of turf in the Phoenix Park. I wonder how many handlings go to the transfer of that turf from Kerry to the Phoenix Park, and what is the economic value of the turf? They take it and ship it to James's Street harbour, and the mould is shipped down to Carlow for pressing into briquettes. I proved that it took 11/- a ton for the carriage of the mould from Dublin to Carlow, where it is used to make pressed briquettes. However, I intend to deal with that matter in a few days in order to show you the gross political nepotism that has occurred in connection with this matter, and I have got documentary proof of it.

At the time that this emergency arose we had something like 80,000 men unemployed, and many of these men had been engaged in unloading and sacking coal all their lives. These men who were out of work could have been employed in connection with the turf scheme, but what happened? Men were brought up from Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Kildare, and so on, and put to work in Dublin. Why? It was evidently because there was a certain amount of political "pull." They had been offered 35/- a week in their own areas, but they were put on to work in the Dublin area at 60/- a week. Is it not ordinary human weakness that if you can get 60/- a week in Dublin, with, possibly, better conditions, you will accept that rather than work in Donegal, Mayo, or other districts for 35/- a week? The result was that when these people got here they sent for their cousins and even their 42nd cousins, which meant that the men who had been engaged all their lives in sacking coal here were put out of work. The men who should have been kept on the bog were brought up here to do ordinary labouring work, such as shovelling the turf into bags. That could have been done by our workers here, but instead of that these people were brought up to Dublin, and the excuse was that the Government wanted a few men who had experience in the clamping of turf. How long would it take any man of average intelligence to learn how to clamp turf? Apart from that, I suggest that there might have been not so much need for the clamping of turf in open areas, since there was a number of places available in which the turf could have been stored, such as the Chapelizod Brewery, in which thousands of tons of turf could have been stored. But, oh, no! That could not be done: they had to put the turf in the open in the Phoenix Park; and then they had to put it down at the East Wall, where the salt spray and the easterly winds could get at it, wetting the turf and making it practically unfit for use. They would not listen to reason, however; they knew all about it. When Mr. Grey was appointed as a member of the board we asked that a representative of the consumers should be appointed, but we are still asking the Minister to appoint a representative of the consumers, or a representative of the farmers and a representative of the people who buy more, such as county councils and other large institutions, to be appointed, but nothing has been done.

No, that could not be done, because then there would have been somebody in the camp who would have known the game which was going on. They appointed a coal importer as chairman and the rest of the board—I am not saying a word in disparagement of them—consists of civil servants and others who know nothing about turf or the distribution of turf. The men who were appointed to inspect the business were undoubtedly appointed for political reasons. There was no reason for bringing these men into the city. There were numbers of men who know what turf is and who were born and trained in Kildare and other counties, but they had to be brought in and these men in Dublin were left to sign on at the labour exchange. It was not a question of 500 or 600 men coming in, because when these men got their feet after a month or two, they got permits to leave and another 600 came up.

Surely the commonsense thing to have done was to have said to these men: "Instead of insulting you by offering you 35/- or £2 a week, we will give you the same wages as you would get in Dublin. Stop here where you are wanted. Cut the turf, dispatch it and leave the people in Dublin to handle it." That, however, was a stupid policy from the Government point of view, so they sent the turf up here and 25 per cent. of it is waste. The first contractor for the carting of this mould, dust and dirt—because all kinds of gravel as well as the top of the ordinary grass is mixed up with it—was getting 3/6 a ton for carting it to James's Street harbour. Another contractor got the contract at an increase of 2/- per ton. The barges then had to be loaded and the stuff sent on to Carbury, and we are here to-day to vote thousands of pounds for this lack of business capacity.

What is the charge for the turf we get? It is 64/- per ton. Some Deputy yesterday suggested a costings committee for agriculture. Why do we not get half a dozen men with business sense to do as is done in other businesses—in the building and other trades—to form a costings committee, composed, if you like, of civil servants and lay members of the House, to ascertain the cost from the point of production to the point of distribution? I suggest that they will find out something. I do not think Deputy Healy will say that I am speaking without the book when I say that if they get 22/- per ton on the roadside in Kerry, they are being paid fairly well. I do not think there is a farmer or any man winning turf in Kerry who would not be glad to get 22/- per ton, but between 22/- and 64/- per ton there is a big margin. How is it to be explained? Suppose it costs 16/- per ton by rail from Kerry and handling charges here in Dublin amount to 3/6 per ton, in what way is the figure of 64/- per ton arrived at? The bags have to be paid for, naturally—it is a capital charge— but a bag will last at least three years with care. The clerks have to be paid, and there are inspection, delivery note and other charges to be paid, but I have sat down night after night to try to work out how that involves so great a differential as that between 22/- per ton at the point of production and 64/- per ton at the point of consumption.

I have the figures with regard to Carbury pressed turf and I know what it costs. In 1937, it cost 29/- per ton to deliver a ton of pressed briquettes from County Kildare to Portrane. They were brought up by barge, handled by men who were paid the union wage of 65/- per week, taken by rail or road to Portrane and sold at 29/- per ton. That stuff is not now on the market. It is reserved—so the Minister says. Yet I have here a book issued by a club, with which are connected some very active units of Fianna Fáil, which one can join for 2/-, and get bags of these pressed briquettes. But it is only to that club, presumably under a certain charitable organisation, and I want to know where the Minister gets power to give away the property of the Government without any order of this House. By what means is the Minister for Supplies in possession of power to dispatch vast quantities of these pressed briquettes, which are in reserve, to any organisation? If it is a matter of charity, it is the Minister for Local Government who has the right to do these things, and then we ought at least to get some knowledge of the amount.

It appears to me to be a question of administration.

Mr. Larkin

And of the money which it is proposed to spend, with all due respect, Sir.

The Deputy might take it quietly.

Mr. Larkin

Are we not dealing with the cost of living and with fuel? Am I correct in that view?

When the Deputy is seated, I will tell him. We are discussing general questions of policy, not details of administration. The destination of a certain amount of briquettes is a detail.

Mr. Larkin

I am not going to argue, but surely if a Minister charged with responsibility for a particular Department is not carrying out his function, it is a question of policy.

Which may be raised on the Estimate.

Mr. Larkin

I can assure you, Sir, that you have not heard the last of it.

The Deputy can deal with it on the Estimate later.

Mr. Larkin

I know that you are very kind to everybody, Sir, and especially to me.

I endeavour to be fair rather than kind to all Deputies.

Mr. Larkin

The authority in relation to these matters is the Minister for Finance—I was about to say Minister for Defence, but possibly he will be Minister for Defence before many days pass—and on this question of turf, he has the last word as to whether money shall be advanced or not. Does he think it wise that in a crisis money should be advanced to any Department if that money is not carefully conserved and if the commodities or materials bought are not distributed in an expeditious and business-like way? I submit that that is a matter for the Minister to answer. It has been proved conclusively out of the mouths of their own prophets that they are not doing the job.

It has been proved on this side that they lack capacity and they have been called on to answer before the country as to what is their business aptitude, their ability to take over the responsibilities which they will assume in a few days. We say that they lack that business aptitude, that they lack sagacity and a sense of responsibility. We say that they lack vision and that there has to be some common denominator to govern every man, woman and child in the near future and particularly those men and women who are elected to this legislative body and the administrative bodies in the country, because we are confronted with a crisis and now is the time for every good man to come to the rescue of his people.

I want to turn now to the question of food and the cost of living. I do not propose to labour the point, but I live with this subject every hour of the day. I have heard people talking in a critical way about members of the House who drew the attention of the House, and, I hope, the country, to the mischievous way in which the national income is distributed. After all, what is this question of economics? It is purely a matter of housekeeping. It is only a question of doing what we would do in our own homes on a weekly or monthly income, or if living on investments. How is that money spent? Is it spent wisely or by wasting one's substance on riotous living, as many people do? When a Deputy with reasoning power and with the ability to do so applies himself to a review of the situation that confronts us or lack of aptitude on the part of the Government, he is told that he is taking a class view of things. It is that class dominates this country. I never heard working-class people taking that narrow view. There is no one so gracious and so generous in their approach to economic questions as the working-class. If they were only as conservative, and as rigidly reactionary as those who exploit and live on their labour, this might be a country where they could have a full measure of life.

When Deputy Tunney spoke I saw one or two Deputies evincing a certain amount of hilarity when he suggested giving value to the farmer. By the way, the farmer is only the licensed holder of land, and if he does not use it I would not hesitate to tell him that somebody else would use it for him. In that statement I think I have the full support of this House, because many of the questions are inquiries when this or that estate is going to be divided. No Deputy would defend the non-use of land. If a man is using land lawfully, and in the best interests of the nation, surely he has a right, whether he is a large farmer or a small farmer, to be paid for his ability and for his labour, even if that labour be only of a supervisory character. If the farmer has that right, and if 90 per cent. of the time of this House is monopolised by claims that he should get better prices, I do not think that anybody on the Labour benches would object when he is producing wealth. The farmer should get a full and a generous measure of living, but the same rights should be given to the man who works beside him, the hired worker, so that he might get just the same measure of life, and none less. We remember the Biblical story about the labourer who went to the vineyard at the eleventh hour, and got the same reward as the man who went in at the beginning. Some Deputy said that that did not apply in view of the present needs. Surely it ought to apply. Out of the supplies that are available every man, woman and child is entitled to the same measure of life. If Deputies want authority for that statement I can give it. It is admitted that all men are equal, but when it comes to measuring out the supplies that is not the case. Lines are then drawn between the 3,000 who hold 90 per cent. of the wealth of the country and the remainder who get a share under sufferance or under tremendous pressure organised or otherwise. Relying upon ourselves as we will be, I think we are able to defend ourselves from any infringement externally. The only danger to this community is the danger that we have always been confronted with, internal danger, disunity, lack of common honesty between one another and lack of recognition of the wants of one another. Otherwise we can defy the whole world even if a wall was built around this nation.

As a community we can sustain ourselves in all difficulties, but we have to realise that in accepting that responsibility we must be organised. When we appealed for organisation and for a planning campaign we were laughed at. Some people with their omnipotent power—I do not say brains —think they are very intelligent, and having the power they are bankrupt in the use of it. Then men who boast about the old days no longer live in those days. They live in a world of bankruptcy of ideas, of profits, of selfishness or of black-marketing. Deputy O Cléirigh said that black-marketing was the order of the day in everything. What brought about black-marketing? It was not the Labour Party. If we know that there is black-marketing in operation, surely it is an easy thing to check it and to see that people who are known to be in the black-market are prosecuted. For example it would be easy to control the meat trade. Everybody knows how many bullocks and breeding cows there are in the country. The average increase in the price of cattle has varied from £2 to £9 per head. The cost of meat is gone up by a few shillings per cwt. When I asked the Minister for Agriculture if it was true that cattle with embryo calves were being killed he told me that was not so. Yet it was found that 22 per cent. of the cattle slaughtered for canning purposes were in young. In some of the British markets recently it was found that 15 per cent. of the finest fat cattle were in calf. Is there a greater crime than that? That is nearly as great a crime as killing the calves and selling their tails to prove that they were killed.

Workers engaged in the meat trade had an application recently before the Wages Tribunal for the balance of a bonus of 11/-. The employers were represented there legally because they were not fit to do their own work. They had hired spokesmen and after spasmodic hearings the question was asked: supposing the butchers and messengers got all they asked for, what would be the increased cost of beef in Dublin? One man stated that it would be a ¼d. per lb. When I asked him to prove that statement he could not do so. I believe that the increase would be less than ¼d. per lb. if the men got the whole of the 11/- that they claimed.

Yet Deputy Tunney has quoted here —and I will prove it if necessary— that the price of beef joints, all kinds of joints, all measures of cattle, has gone up at least 87 per cent. Some of those portions in certain shops have gone up 120 per cent. The rents have not increased. The rates have increased by 1/10 or a little more. Then where does this margin come in, and how is it explained?

The same thing applies in the case of swine. It was so bad in the market for pork, that I had to go as a member of a deputation to the Minister and ask him to free the market, so that men in the pork trade would at least get a measure of supplies. The price of the hide has gone up—not very much—and the peculiar thing is that the profit lies in the hide, in the fat or in the entrails. The price of casein, the coverings for sausages, has gone up 127 per cent. and you cannot get them. They were being shipped until we demanded that the export be stopped. You can take any commodity in the City of Dublin and though you get here the figures for the increase, I say that those figures are incorrect and are always behind time. The figures, as we think, should be checked up by some statistical inquiry and will be found to be radically wrong. Take any woman, give her the wages and send her out with a basket, to buy the things that are set down in this document, and how far will she get? We are told that milk is a primary food. Of course it is. My friend Deputy Tunney said something I would hardly credit—that there are children in this country who have never tasted milk. Possibly, he meant that they would get it only in the form of tea. When we gave those children natural milk recently in the schools, they resented it; they did not want it, they wanted tea.

They never saw milk before in its fluid or natural state until it was given to them under the school meals scheme. But what has happened within the last two days? We, in our wisdom or otherwise, decided to give a larger measure of supply to a larger number of children. Deputy O'Sullivan, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, has gone out, but my colleagues are here on both sides of the House, Deputy Dockrell and Deputy Breathnach, to bear me out. The Minister put his foot down and said—though we were willing to spend the money and to pay for it out of the rates—that we were spending too much and must stop giving the children milk. We must stop giving the hungry children milk! That was not the first time he did that. It was the second and third time. You remember, previous to the general election when he said that we would make the children all good Communists if we gave them full bellies. Is that not an extraordinary thing in a Christian country? There was our natural willingness to give our children food, paying for it out of the rates; but the Minister comes along and says the children are well fed— and he himself is well fed—and, ergo, "Stop there, you are spending too much money". Is not that kind of blackguardism enough to create disorder and trouble in any country?

Is it any wonder that men do not want to go outside their own areas to seek work? I was surprised to hear a Deputy talking at some great length, and suggesting that some people do not want work. Surely there are some such people, but they are not amongst the working class. Go down Grafton Street now and you will see the large number of ill-disciplined men, with weak bodies, who do not mean to work if they can avoid it. But you will not find such persons amongst the common people in Ireland. You will not tell me that the ordinary men, women and girls who go to the labour exchange and walk from factory to factory, morning after morning, do not want work. The most dangerous menace in the city is the unoccupied young woman, going from factory to factory, seeking work, although we have organisations for the protection of such women.

I quoted the other day in the House the case of a factory started on the North side of the city a few months ago, to make starches and custards out of potatoes. What were the wages offered to young girls of 14, and possibly to some who were over 20? They were 7/6 a week; and even then they were not getting a full week's work—only casual or broken time. I wonder what kind of Christian country it is that permits that. No factory inspector has ever been in that factory. No Minister for Supplies ever knew about it. The Minister for Industry and Commerce never heard of it until the ordinary Ishmaels we are always talking about, as being enemies of our own people, had to go out and apply the cure. Surely that was our task and the task of this Government.

Could we not get some common denominator, some common line of action, to bring men from different Parties together—I am not concerned who they are—pledged to work together, in the words of Deputy Esmonde, "as brothers in a common bond"? Could we not be determined to use these Four Fields of Kathleen Ní Houilhán for the benefit and sustenance of every man, woman and child in this territory, against all enemies outside and against all those traitorous enemies who, at the present moment, are inarticulate but who will soon, when the opportunity is presented, make themselves articulate, as they did in the many years of our purgatorial history? Deputies should drop all feelings of bitterness and lack of understanding and should appreciate each other's good points; points of irritation should be smoothed over and points of acceptance and good comradeship should be worked out, in order to find a fulfilment of the dream of those who have gone before us, so that we in our lifetime may see it brought to fruition.

It is in that spirit that I approach this question this afternoon. I sat here all day yesterday, to the closing of this business in the Chamber last night, and to-day from early morning. I would be sorry to go home to-night— when this nation is confronted as we know no other nation under God ever was confronted—without the knowledge that something has been done of dynamic value, in the last two days. I came in with a feeling of upsurge in mind and heart, knowing that the right course had been taken by the spokesman of the race, and feeling that we were going to implement his wisdom and good sense. Yet nothing has been said so far of any value, to-day or yesterday. We have been arguing about these material matters—matters of no moment—as to how to live for to-day.

The spiritual matters that should animate our people are being forgotten. It may be that they are held in abeyance. There was a question here yesterday about a righteous protest against the violation of the centre of Christendom by the belligerent powers. The spokesman of the Government said that was a matter about which he was deeply concerned, but that the line of thought would not be followed up by action until the right moment. That was a correct policy. In our own case, what is the message given to our citizens, who are anxious but self-controlled? No race in the world could have stood the last few days as our race did, with not one person getting worried. Everybody was phlegmatic, knowing they could rely on the inner powers if the test came. Yet we are getting no lead. I think we should have stayed up here, even up to the very eve of the Patron Saint's Feast, and continued to deal with this problem and to devise ways and means to combat it. I suggest, even at this late hour, that it is not too late to decide that.

I think that the Minister ought to decide that this is a case of an emergency; and I believe the present Minister is the best man to do that. He could declare this to be an emergency —not a panic, but a question of emergency, in which everyone should be concerned. I came through the city to-day and saw three private cars. I saw one gentleman driving in to his office and using petrol, and I saw other people running around in hired cars. Though we should conserve every pint, every ounce, of petrol, they were wasting gallons of it day after day. Surely, no one should have the right to use any more petrol, except to deal with matters of great urgency?

Surely, driving from joy centre to joy centre, from public house to public house, or to and from race-meetings is not an urgent matter. The farmers want the petrol, the men in the industrial areas want the petrol, and I would not allow one ounce of petrol to be given to anybody else. As to the setting up of an economic council, I have heard the Leader of the Labour Party appeal for the setting up of such a council. You will be forced to set up such a council in the immediate future. It has been suggested that you have carried the burden yourselves. You say so. But the fact is that you have thrust the burden on to other people to bear. You are up against it now and the embattled forces of the nation will have to get together. We know that this matter will not be put to a division, that you will get your Vote on Account. If it were in our power to give £50,000,000, you would get it. As to the suggestion put forward by a Labour Deputy this morning, I think you ought to do the right thing, the correct thing, the wise thing, and take over the reserves in the banks, giving the banks the same return that they give to the people who deposit money with them. If you put £1,000 in the bank you get 1 per cent., certainly not more than 1½ per cent., on it. Give the banks that, or even say to them: "We will give you 2 per cent., but we will take over all your liquid assets."

We should give to the farmer whatever he thinks is his right, on the basis that he will give to his labourer what we think is right. There should be in every county a wage of not less than £3 per week for every farm labourer and every man working on the bogs. If men working on the bogs cannot get to their homes, we should provide proper shelter and food for them and allow any member of any political Party to inspect the living conditions of these men, because we must get fuel, and at once.

Every farm labourer should be assured of continuity of employment, and get not less than the industrial labourers in the cities and towns. Why should a man working on a farm not get a wage equal to the man working in the building trade in Dublin? In the County Dublin the wage of a farm labourer is £2 6s. per week. He is living under exactly the same conditions as I am. Some of them are living in the County Borough of Dublin, and their cost of living is just the same as mine, or perhaps higher, because they wear out more boots. As I say, the farm labourer in County Dublin gets £2 6s. per week. By whom is that wage fixed? By a hand-picked group of farmers and a hand-picked group of political supporters of Fianna Fáil. They decide what the wages will be for agricultural workers in County Dublin. Surely these workers have a right to speak for themselves without the Government interfering and saying what their rights are. In other counties in Ireland the wage for farm labourers is £2 per week—not 10½d. an hour as was stated, but 9d. an hour. If any man in any clerical or industrial capacity works on Sunday he gets double pay for his work. But a farm labourer who works 54 hours per week, while other labourers only work 48 hours, gets £2 per week and, when he works on Sunday, he gets the same rate of wages as on any other day of the week. Surely the farm labourer is entitled to a 48-hour week, for every hour over that, time and a half, and for Sunday work double time, the same as any other human being. The farm labourer should be given a reasonable wage, at least a wage fixed according to the lowest minimum standard for any worker. We in the towns have fought for him for the last 30 years and demanded justice for him. Even if we do not get any higher standard for ourselves, we will be prepared to suffer that if the men who produce get a proper standard of living. They are the only men we should be concerned about now—the men who produce food, clothing and shelter. In conclusion, I ask the Minister in all earnestness to make a gesture to the House and, after consulting with his colleagues, to see if we cannot have this round-table conference of representatives of every section of the community.

I think Deputy Larkin, Senior, overlooked one important point when relating the question of farm labourers' wages to that of industrial workers. In fact, it was mentioned by Deputy Larkin, Junior, this morning when he asked whether, if the doles and subsidies that are being demanded by those who claim to represent the agricultural community were granted, would the people on the Farmers' benches be prepared to say that the agricultural labourer will get his share of that. When those who claim to represent the farmers spoke for the first-time in this House last year. I asked the Leader of their Party that question. If they did get a subsidy of £3 per acre for tillage and other concessions, I put it to them that, naturally, something should be done to relate the wages that were being paid to the farm labourers to what the farmers were getting. I failed to get an answer from these people, and I am sure that Deputy Larkin, Junior, will fail to get an answer.

The real difficulty that I see, and I put it to Deputy Larkin, Senior, is not so much the question of the wages of the farm labourer, as that can be settled, but the question of fixed hours. Every farmer and every farm labourer knows that the great difficulty about employment on the land at present is the question of fixed hours. The question of fixed hours has done a considerable amount of damage in the dairying industry. Everybody knows that it is very hard to fix definite weekly hours for any kind of farm labourer, even the person working in the yard, as distinct from the person working on the land, because there are considerable periods during which labourers are not actually working at all. I suggest that at the present time the wage of £2 6s. 0d. per week in County Dublin and £2 per week in other parts of the country has very little bearing on the question. So far as my own district is concerned, the agricultural labourer's wage exceeds the rate fixed by the wages board. Anybody who has any knowledge of the rural areas must admit that the actual cash wage, even for men who have a yearly contract, is far higher than the rate fixed by the wages board on the weekly basis, because there is a considerable demand for good agricultural labourers and the people who want them are prepared to pay them.

The thing to be decided is: how far can the agricultural community afford to go in paying agricultural labourers at the moment? I have always felt, and nobody can deny it, that where there is a gradual improvement in prices and in the general position of the farming community, the position of the farm labourer should also improve.

I would say to the people who seem to be very doleful, even at the present time, about the position of the agricultural industry, the people who seem to feel that it will not exist unless they get these subsidies, that they will find it very hard to explain to me that if the farming community of this country are in such a depressed condition why land sold now is making prices even in excess of what were paid during the last war. Within my own immediate neighbourhood in the last week, accommodation land near a country village went for £100 an acre. There was a farm of 90 odd acres of not particularly good land, a farm that was not worked for a good number of years, because it was part of an old estate and the price of it was £3,150. It was not paid by a speculator or by any of these mysterious gentlemen we hear of buying land in Dublin. The price was paid by next-door neighbours.

Encouraged by the banks.

Mr. Larkin

Ready money.

Yes, ready money. I know what I am talking about, and I do not think there is any great encouragement now by the banks so far as the ordinary farmer is concerned. Those people are of some value to the community, men who have made money out of their own land and who are prepared to put it back again into the land. They are the farmers who are of value to the community, and not the type of people who are looking for doles and subsidies. To my mind the best way to resettle the Irish people is to see that those prepared to work hard and to make money out of their holdings should be encouraged to extend their activities and to put their families into farms of their own. Those are the people who will preserve the agricultural future of this country, the people who have faith in themselves. They are not fools and we know perfectly well that unless they have the greatest confidence in the agricultural future of this country they will not put their money into land.

They are the type of people who always treat their agricultural labourers best, because they work side by side with them, and feel themselves no better than agricultural labourers. Whatever Deputy Larkin (Junior) thinks, there is no class barrier between the farmers and the agricultural labourers in districts like mine. It is the commonest thing in the world to see the son of a farmer of 30 or 40 acres working with a farmer of 60 or 80 acres. There is no social distinction, but there is the natural inclination to treat agricultural labourers like themselves. These people are in a position to get labourers to work for them. I am quite satisfied that a farmer who believes in working hard has never begrudged proper payment to his labourers, so long as he feels any security in his own future, and so long as he feels that he has been justly treated by the State. There are times when the farmers have not felt that.

It is very hard to compare the position of an agricultural worker with that of an agricultural labourer. A worker in the country has a cottage for perhaps 1/- a week, and he has an opportunity of keeping a cow and growing a few ridges of potatoes. If he does not keep the cow, he may get milk at a cheap rate. He has an opportunity of getting fuel, and of getting assistance to get fuel during the summer months, and he is in a much happier position than the worker in the City of Dublin or, indeed, the worker in a small country town who may be earning 35/- to £2 a week and paying 6/- or 7/- a week for a couple of rooms and having only the bare cost of living. The man in the country is much more resilient.

In many respects, the man in the country town is every bit as badly off as the man in the city, but often the man in the country town has a better possibility of providing for himself. There is no comparison between the city worker and the rural worker, and I think the lack of agricultural labour in a number of districts, at any rate, is not accounted for by the fact that they do not want to work on the land or are dissatisfied with the wages paid, but by the fact that there is an attraction to young people to move somewhere. Nobody could explain why young men will leave a farmer they were working for for four or five years under good conditions and reasonably good wages.

Why, for example, should they go away to live in a hut in Kildare on the bogs, under conditions which may be all right, instead of remaining behind in their own home with their families? In the County Kildare camp they receive a wage which is not very much in excess of what they earn at home. I think the same argument would apply to those young people who leave continuous employment in the country to go to England to earn higher wages. They are not supposed to be allowed to go to England if they are employed, but there is no means of testing that accurately.

The local employment office writes to the person described as the last employer. They ask him if he has any work and, of course, he says he has not. If he says he has, the man concerned will not get his passport, but he will walk out. For some unknown reason, in the rural areas it is not so much dissatisfaction with the work as the fact that there seems to be an attraction in moving somewhere else, away from home. Boys have gone up to Kildare notwithstanding keen competition for farm labour. I cannot explain it, and I doubt if anyone can, but I am afraid that there is a definite tradition in this country, perhaps on account of the forced emigration for a number of years, to move abroad from one's own particular area and to seek work somewhere else.

Deputy Tunney delivered rather a lecture to the Fine Gael Party at the end of his speech. He said that some of our people had criticised the amount of the Vote on Account, and the amount asked for in the Estimates without suggesting what social services should be abolished. Why should we? I put it to the Deputy that the entire amount of the Estimates could be criticised by an intelligent Deputy without any question of social services. Apart entirely from the emigration situation, there must, in the post-war period anyway, be a time when those emergency payments will no longer be necessary, and we must have an examination of the gross national expenditure of this country with a view to seeing that our national taxation is kept within the limits of our national income.

At the present time, for various reasons, the impact of increased taxation and expenditure is affecting a far greater portion of the community than it ever did before. I hope that Deputy Tunney does not represent the Labour Party point of view. He criticised us for not wanting to remove social services. Nobody did. When he repeated it the third time I took a careful note of it and I found that he said it five times after that, always ending up by saying that something must be done. He ended every sixth sentence with that phrase, "something must be done," but he never told anyone what should be done. My submission is that it is not within the right of any Deputy to criticise any other Deputy or any other Party for their lack of suggestions, if he is not prepared to suggest something himself. I know that the Deputy is a very humane man and that he has a great interest in the various sections of the community who are not as well off as others, but beyond a slight criticism of the difference between the price producers receive for commodities such as meat, and the price paid by consumers, and a suggestion that there should be some examination of how that difference is disposed of, he did not suggest anything.

There are a great many people in this country at the moment who are hit every time there is an increase in the cost of living or an increase in taxation who possibly were never touched before. Everybody realises that there is a certain proportion of our people who have always been badly off, who have never been in regular employment and whose families always suffer from malnutrition. That is one section who are always affected by economic pressure, but at the present time there are thousands of other people suffering who were never seriously affected before. Take tradesmen. Take for instance the country blacksmith who has to keep a wife and family. He is now able to obtain only sufficient iron for a week to carry him over a month. Or take the country carpenter who gets only sufficient timber in the month to do him for a week. These people have no possible means of increasing their incomes to meet the rise in the cost of living. Again, take people carrying on small shops who are not in the position of those big firms who have been able to increase their profits by 100 per cent. The curtailment of their normal supplies has reduced their income in some cases by 75 per cent. These people have no means of expanding their incomes to help them to withstand the increase in the cost of living or increases in taxation.

In every district in the country, there are people who would normally be considered fairly well off, who would never in normal times be classed as poor, but who are now in as destitute circumstances as the people whom we would classify as poor in pre-emergency days for the simple reason that they find it as hard to buy clothes, milk, vegetables, boots and shoes for their families as people who were considered really badly off in pre-emergency days. These people have no possible chance of doing anything to preserve themselves against the shock of increases of any kind. They are not in the happy position of people who have a little bit of land, no matter how small the area. No matter how small the acreage, if a man has a little bit of land, it will enable him to withstand the greatest shock of all, the shock of starvation. People who have not that advantage and who are living on fixed incomes must at the present time be suffering to a considerable extent. People in receipt of reasonably good wages, good artisans who in ordinary times earned good wages, having regard to the price they must now pay for essential commodities, must be feeling the pinch acutely.

I am honestly afraid that there are a number of people whose families are suffering from malnutrition and in whose case the danger of malnutrition is more serious simply because up to recently they had always enjoyed a certain standard of living. They were not considered poor people and they are not people who will get anything from the various social services to meet the rise in the cost of living. I am quite satisfied that there are hundreds of homes in this country in which the adults of the families are starving in order to buy milk for their children. If they are not starving, the parents are not eating sufficient food to maintain them in ordinary conditions of health.

It is really alarming to think that any increase in the cost of living or in taxation has such a serious effect on a great proportion of the people. My suggestion is that, whether during the emergency or during the immediate post-war situation, the House should ask the Government seriously to examine, and examine very closely, the position of every family in this country from the very poorest and the most destitute up, to find out what is really necessary to enable a man to marry, have a home and rear a family, to use the words of the Taoiseach, in frugal comfort. That is a problem that will have to be examined, because the work of the nation cannot possibly be carried on if young children are reared under a system whereby it is not possible for their parents to provide food or clothing.

Everyone will appreciate the reference made by Deputy O Cleirigh to the black market, but there is something worse than the black market and that is, dealing in articles that are not controlled. One of the reasons for the lack of public confidence of which Deputy O Cleirigh complained is to be found in the fact that, in every daily paper, one sees articles and commodities that are very scarce advertised for sale under box numbers—articles like horse-shoe nails, shoe tips, etc. These things are not controlled but they should be controlled. I know shoemakers in my own constituency who saw advertisements in the paper from parties as far away as Donegal offering supplies of tips, nails and tacks. These tradesmen in order to keep their business going would pay any price for these articles. One of the reasons why there is such a great lack of public support in the matter of controlled prices is that people feel that while the prices of certain articles are controlled the prices of a hundred and one other commodities that may not be exactly vital but that are nevertheless important for the life of the commodity, things such as horse-shoe nails, tips and tacks, are not subject to any control. People believe that they should be controlled and that, if there are stocks of these articles in the hands of individuals, or of groups, the Government should take steps to find out exactly where they are.

Mr. Larkin

The Government would not interfere with private interests surely!

The position is that it is very galling for any shoe-maker down the country to see articles which he cannot get being advertised under a box number in a paper. That is one of the reasons why the Department of Supplies do not get the support they should. I may mention another reason. Two years ago a number of people in County Cork who wanted barley were prosecuted for paying an excess price. One of the reasons why there is a lack of confidence is that nobody is ever prosecuted now for paying more than the controlled price.

One sees that a great many people were prosecuted and fined for selling articles at more than the controlled price. It would be of great assistance, and it would tend to strengthen the public mind in its desire to support the Department of Supplies, if the people who paid more than the fixed price, and who were known by the inspectors to have done so, were prosecuted and heavily fined. It is the purchaser and not the vendor who makes the black market. The sooner some of those people who can afford to go into the black market and make purchases are dealt with, the better for everybody.

Deputy Larkin said that the Government had done nothing to control inflation. Inflation, even in the sense of the money coming in from Britain, has had a very peculiar effect on black market activities. There are many people who are getting more money than they really need for their families, if one may put it that way. When they have that loose money, they are in the market for any commodity they can pick up. With that money coming from England and with the increase in agricultural prices, there is a certain amount of money lying dormant because there is nothing to buy with it. The person who has that money is a potential black market customer, if he or she hears that there is a commodity going which they want. I believe the Government should have gone much further than they did when they commenced rationing and control of prices. They should have gone down the list the same as the customs people do when one is coming into the country to see what articles are dutiable. In the case of every article necessary to the life of the people; there should be either rationing or price control. Piecemeal rationing and piecemeal price-fixing have had a great deal to do with the black market. When one article was rationed, or when a price was fixed in respect of it, one did not need to be an astute business man to guess what article would be next on the list. Everybody remembers the incident connected with the drapery business. Ninety per cent. of the real damage as regards the black market is done between the time the rumour starts that the price of some article is to be controlled and the time that the Order is made. Unfortunately, that has happened on more than one occasion.

Deputy Larkin, junior, seemed to take a line which I did not expect from him. Deputy Larkin, senior, I think, disagreed with him. Deputy Larkin, senior, said that references to social classes and social strata do not come from the workers, that they are not the people who are sensitive in this connection. Deputy Larkin, junior, suggested that one of the great evils was the extreme difference in social strata which we have. I think that the less talk which we have from the Labour Party or any other Party about that, the better. We, in the rural areas, are fortunate in the fact that there are no social strata there. To the extent of 90 per cent. in some of the rural areas and to the extent of 100 per cent. in others—Deputies from the south-western counties will bear out what I say—whether the people pursue professional activities, business activities, farming activities or farm-labour activities, there are no such things as social strata.

Mr. Larkin

Some thousands of them have left this country.

It would pay Deputy Larkin and it might ease his mind on the question of social strata if he came down and spent a week in the town in which I reside.

Mr. Larkin

I spent more than that in the same county before you were born.

If the Deputy did that, he would find out that what I am saying is correct. I am sure that Deputy Looney and other Deputies from Cork will confirm what I say and that Deputy Spring, who represents North Kerry, will say the same of that part of the country. We cannot help it if the Dublin mentality tends to that kind of thing. I can understand Deputy Larkin's contempt for the parasite walking down Grafton Street. These people, probably, regard Deputy Larkin, senior, as equally objectionable. That is, probably, the Dublin mentality. When we speak of the Dublin mentality, I do not think we mean it in the hurtful sense that Deputy Larkin imagines. We take a different view. Dublin people have built up a legend that the people in control of government, in control of the civil service and of business are people who came in from the country and were too clever for the Dublin people. That is, possibly, true but the Dublin mentality is such—and everybody knows it—that it likes to assimilate those people.

When they become heads of the State or are in control of Departments or in charge of businesses, they are assimilated and get the Dublin mentality. The rest of Ireland may be all right, in the opinion of Dublin; the people living there may be decent people who work hard to supply them with food and fuel. But, whether Deputy Larkin likes it or not, I am afraid there is a Dublin mentality which feels that it is paying us a compliment by asking us to produce its food, fuel, and so on. The sooner the people of Dublin get that idea out of their heads the better. I met persons during the past couple of days whose real concern was not the danger arising out of the emergency but whether the Government would be strong enough to make those country fellows do the necessary work. Everybody knows that that is a nonsensical idea. Before and during this emergency, when economic conditions permitted, the farmers worked their lands in a proper manner and were always prepared to supply city and country with their needs, so far as they could.

It is not the fault of the farmer or the agricultural labourer if the people of the cities and towns are paying too much for milk, butter and meat. The whole fault lies in bad control of distribution and bad control of profits. If the distribution of milk and those other things were handled in a proper manner, the cost would go down. You have a creamery in a country village handling 7,000 or 8,000 gallons of milk at 1/- a gallon. Deputy Mahony will bear me out when I say that there is not a village where people are not paying proportionately higher for their milk than they are paying here, although there is milk going in practically next-door at 1/- a gallon. I suggested before that something on the lines of the free milk scheme should be done in connection with the ordinary distribution of milk—that a certain amount should be taken at every creamery in a village and distributed in that way. I was told that it was not feasible, that the cost would be too much and that there was really no necessity to do it because one group of creameries could practically supply the whole of this country with its fresh milk demands at the moment. I entirely discredit that statement. It might be accurate. There is quite a possibility that a couple of creameries might soon supply the people with all the milk they can purchase because they cannot afford to buy very much of it in the towns and cities.

Everybody knows that, before and during the emergency, our consumption of milk was shockingly low. It is perfectly obvious that if the distribution of milk—wholesale and retail— was efficiently dealt with by any Government, the people paying 5/- or 6/-, or 10/- or 12/- per week for milk would still pay the same amount, even if they got double the amount of milk for it. They would not cut down that expenditure. The main thing that the heads of a family are anxious to provide is fresh milk. I was amazed to hear Deputy Tunney say that some children never knew the taste of milk. Deputy Larkin said that some children who were getting the free milk desired to be supplied with tea. It is hard for a nation to exist if large numbers of its citizens are being reared in that way. I entirely agree with Deputy Larkin. I want to make clear to Deputy Larkin, junior, that it is not right or just for any member of this House, whether belonging to the Labour Party or any other Party, to suggest that there is not on every side of the House as good a conception of the ills and woes of the destitute and of the poor and as much anxiety to assist them as there is in his own Party.

There is no good in saying that Fianna Fáil failed to do this or that Cumann na nGaedheal, when it was in power, failed to do that: that it failed to deal with the unemployment question. As far as I am concerned, what I would wish after the emergency has passed, and when we have to face the post-war period, is that we could by some means or other stop men's minds from going back for ever on the history of the last 20 years, thereby making it possible for all of us to look forward and see how we can best help in the future. Deputies, however much they may dislike the politics and ideals of other members, should at least remember that every Deputy sent here represents a cross-section of the community. There is no Deputy who represents the rich only or the poor only. Each Deputy represents a cross-section of the community in his particular area, and if he is worth his salt he has as much interest in the poorest of the poor as he has in the richest of the rich.

I, and the members of this Party, naturally feel that the amount that is being demanded by the Government is extremely high. I put it to the Government that it will be necessary for it to stock-take very severely once the emergency is over. When taxation rises to great heights we often hear it said, as people will say when the local rates reach a high figure, that after a period certain things will not be necessary and that, therefore, expenditure can be brought down. That seldom happens. When this emergency ends, it is true that several items which appear in the Estimate to-day will no longer be necessary, to the same extent at any rate. Army expenditure, for example, will not be as heavy as it is now. During this period of emergency we have found it possible to raise a certain amount of money through taxation. We are doing that in a period of stress. It may be necessary for us to continue to do so in the post-war period, but to utilise the money so raised in a different way from that in which it is being utilised to-day. People are beginning to realise that the scourge of tuberculosis, with which we have been tinkering for the last 20 years, will have to be seriously tackled. It is a tragedy that of all civilised countries in the world, it should be more widespread here than in any other country. It may be that it will be worse after the emergency, due to malnutrition.

Since we have been quite prepared to spend money in raising and maintaining an army on the present scale, I am sure there is no member of the House who would not be prepared cheerfully to spend money in getting an army together whose work would be to save the nation and the race against the scourge of tuberculosis. There is no use in thinking that you are going to deal with it by the expenditure of a few thousand pounds or by the erection of a small hospital or a sanatorium here or there.

Nobody would object to increased taxation to deal with a problem such as that any more than they would on the things that were found necessary to be done during the emergency, or to give Deputy Cogan the things that he would like. There are some things that we cannot afford to give the Deputy. I am sure he will admit that we will have to cut taxation because it is too high. I would remind Deputies on all sides of the House that sectional demands, whether they come from the Farmers' benches, the Labour benches or from our benches, which tend to increase taxation and the price to the consumer, without a fair proportion of the latter going back to the producer, only means that we are robbing Peter to pay Paul. Such demands merely mean that we are increasing taxation which will fall heaviest on that section of the community which, as Deputy Larkin (Junior) says, is hit most severely by indirect taxation. It hits the poor man with a large family far more severely than it does the comparatively well-off man who has the same size of family.

Deputy Larkin suggested that an economic council should be set up. That suggestion was made before. I want to say that any help that this Party can give the Government to carry the country through the emergency will be given. In our view, apart altogether from the present emergency, it is necessary that the Government should start now to plan for the post-war situation. It is not sufficient just to talk about big arterial roads or plans for arterial drainage—we must start to plan to meet the situation that will face the country post-war. In that situation you will have hundreds of thousands of people coming back to the country. Preparations will need to be made for their reception and to give them employment. The situation that will face us then will be as serious as any that arose during the war period.

This Vote on Account is a very large one. In my submission it should not be as big as it is. Our capital debt has been increasing year by year; taxation has been increasing year by year. No matter how much taxation is increased, the Government are still not able to present a balanced Budget. Something should be done to reduce taxation for otherwise a dangerous position may be reached. Our credit may be impaired if we have too big a capital debt.

Taxation itself might be impaired by the fact that our national income had gone down and ultimately the only way of meeting the situation might be by reducing our social services. With Deputy Larkin, I believe that all Parties in the House would be willing, if asked, to co-operate with the Government, but it is the Government's duty to plan for the post-war emer gency. If that planning is not done now to make preparations to deal with such questions as unemployment, the social services, the housing of the people and the situation created by the thousands returning to the country after the war, I do not think that I would care to be a member of the Government that will have to handle that situation, one in which, for example, you had one adult in every five unemployed. That is a situation that the Government ought to have in mind at the present time. In conclusion, I think that the best motto for the House and for the people of the country to adopt in dealing with the present situation is: "Business as usual."

This Vote on Account is an intimation to the House and to the country that the nation must prepare itself for raising £50,000,000 in taxation this year. When we consider that the State's demand for £50,000,000 will be accompanied by a demand from the local authorities for approximately £7,000,000 to be raised out of the rates, we are face to face with the position that the nation, out of its income, will have to provide £57,000,000 this year. For about 20 years the national income of the State has been static at about £150,000,000. Possibly, arising from inflationary tendencies, the national income might now be said to be £170,000,000 or £180,000,000. No recent figures are available to enable calculations to be made, but the fact is that out of a national income of approximately £170,000,000 we will have to provide £57,000,000 for national and local services.

I do not think the Minister will attempt to deny that that is a very heavy charge on such a relatively small national income. It seems that roughly 30 per cent. of the national income is raked off for services of the kind I have indicated, and I think that rake-off in our circumstances is something that is unusual, something that is unparalleled in countries whose circumstances are approximately similar to those which obtain here. In my view the significance of these figures cannot be gainsaid and the dangers which they indicate cannot be overlooked. To raise a sum of £57,000,000 in taxation out of a national income of £170,000,000 is to impose upon the people a very heavy burden. I do not, of course, attempt to deny that the raising of the £57,000,000 is necessary in our circumstances, but I think the point must not be overlooked, because it is at the root of our economic life, that if we are to make that burden tolerable for our people, it can be done only in one way, that is, by increasing national productivity and thereby making it possible for our people to bear the burden under more endurable circumstances. In New Zealand, a country with a population of approximately 1,600,000, the national income represents £180 per head of the population. Applying the New Zealand national income of £180 per head to our circumstances, our total national income would be in the vicinity of £540,000,000 and our financial and economic relationship with New Zealand may be gauged by a comparison of our national income, £170,000,000, with their national income, £340,000,000. That might give us some indication of the extent by which we must multiply our productivity here in order to be able to provide better standards of social legislation for our people.

The most significant feature and the most dangerous symptom of the Estimates is that in this relatively small country we find it necessary to make provision to the extent of £6,000,000 for services which are related to the relief of poverty and distress. If ever there was an indictment of our statesmanship it is surely to be found in the fact that, out of our national expenditure of £50,000,000 we must necessarily spend approximately £6,000,000 for services definitely related to the relief of poverty and distress. That is a dangerous situation. It is an undesirable situation. It is a situation which can only be remedied by removing the causes of poverty and of want.

For this situation there is only one remedy. It is now possible to find it in operation in most countries which have been compelled to mobilise their manhood in time of war. That remedy is the provision of full employment for each and every citizen able and willing to work. Are we doing that to-day? Quite clearly we are not. There has been no attempt whatever to utilise to the full the available manpower of the nation in all spheres of national activity. What we are doing to-day is simply relying on the worn-out, peace-time economic policy, which gave us deplorable results in peace-time and which are giving us still more deplorable results in the emergency. We are now in the fifth year of the war. If we failed in the first year of the war to make the provision that one finds it necessary to make in time of war, it might be said in justification of our inertia that we were caught on the wrong foot when the war broke out, that we had not time to make the necessary preparations. But to-day we are in the fifth year of the war and we have not yet realised the necessity for mobilising the nation's resources and for mobilising the available man-power and material that are dormant in the country to-day.

In other countries, notably those at war, the urge of war and the necessities of war have brought about economic and financial revolutions. Old economic structures have been ruthlessly torn up and replaced by others better calculated to ensure the success of the war effort in these countries. Old financial systems that stood for generations have been uprooted. What were thought to be orthodox methods of finance are no longer permitted to operate in these countries because, under stress of war, the various nations realised that the necessities of the time demanded that there should be an abandonment of methods that were not calculated to ensure the best possible equipment for the pursuit of war being available for the nations concerned.

While that has happened over most of the entire world and to a very large extent, even in neutral countries, we in this portion of Ireland are content to bask in the twilight of an economic and financial age which the world has long since left behind. We still cling to financial and economic policies which the world has long since abandoned, and we continue to tolerate the deplorable results which adherence to out-worn financial and economic systems inevitably brings. Nations engaged in war to-day are not merely taxing their people severely, but are mortgaging future generations. In many of these countries generations of their citizens will bear very heavy burdens inevitably associated with the prosecution of war. Many of these burdens will not be liquidated until many generations have passed. Indeed, he would be a very wise man who would attempt to say when the financial burdens which have been imposed on the principal Powers of Europe or other parts of the world are likely to be liquidated. Here, with a resolution and determination worthy of a better cause, we struggle on to maintain economic and financial systems which the world has long since abandoned. Possibly, there is no other nation in the world to-day that has such a conception of the purpose and the use of money as we have. We fail completely to realise that the main source of life here and elsewhere is the production and distribution of food, goods and services, that these are the vital factors of life and that money is merely the mechanism which promotes the production and exchange of goods and services.

We, however, prefer, against the better judgment of the rest of the world, to regard money as the supreme authority, as something which determines what will be produced, the quantities in which it will be produced, the manner in which it will be distributed, and the areas over which it will be spread. We overlook the fact, the incontrovertible fact, one that is realised to-day in Europe and the world generally more clearly than ever, and that is, that a nation can only live on what it produces, that there is nothing else on which it can live.

What we have to recognise as an essential part of any agricultural or economic regeneration here is that we must intensify production of goods and services, and the mechanism of money must be utilised for the purpose of serving rather than delimiting that objective. But we, of course, would not be content to do things even in a half-radical way. In the matter of money mechanism, we have probably the most conservative system in the world. Our money mechanism operates so that we provide currency and credit on the basis of an anchorage not associated with Irish goods or assets. We are content here with a monetary system under which we permit our banks to issue money on the basis, not of the assets of this country but on the basis of what another country owes.

Under the unfortunate Central Bank Act and the Currency Act before it, special steps were taken to ensure and make permanent our anchorage to the British pound. Before our banks can issue new money for any purpose they must get a British pound note, deposit that note with the Central Bank here, so that they may get permission to issue an Irish pound note. In other words, before you can get an Irish pound note into your hand, you must get a piece of paper representing what Britain owes—British Defence Bonds, British Victory Bonds, any type of British security—and deposit it with the Central Bank. Then, and only then, will an Irish citizen get permission to hold an Irish pound note.

I do not know what the Republican separatist members of the Fianna Fáil Party think of that; whatever their ambitions used to be about breaking the connection, there is no question of breaking the connection there. The Irish £ can now look the British £ in the face, but the British £ will decide on what conditions it can be looked in the face. When you get what represents British debts, and deposit them with the Irish bank, then you will have the privilege of looking at the Irish colleen on the Irish pound note.

That was the position of the last Government brought about by the Currency Act and that is the situation the Fianna Fáil Party are perpetuating in this country, and they are perpetuating it in the most dangerous set of circumstances that could possibly be visualised in this country. We are anchoring our currency to-day to that of a nation which is engaged in a great war and which is spending probably £15,000,000 a day. Britain has long ceased to have had any gold backing for her currency. Britain has ceased even to have any metallic backing for her currency. She is issuing notes on the character and the credit of the British people. She is issuing money on a colossal scale and we get it because we give the British goods for it. We plank these notes in the Central Bank and are then permitted to look at what is described as an Irish £ note.

I wonder whether the Minister is happy with that set of circumstances? The last Government, in 1927, took power to put into the Currency Act, in less dangerous circumstances, a provision which would enable them to break the anchorage with sterling and get an entirely new anchorage, probably related to Irish production or Irish assets. But here, in the face of the biggest crisis with which the nation has been menaced during the past 20 years, we are gaily carrying on a financial system under which our notes are anchored to the unlimited issue of notes of a neighbouring power engaged in a life and death struggle. I think such a policy represents the economics of a mad-house. Can any Deputy contemplate the situation of buying up the assets of a person who is scattering assets in the way that assets are being scattered in the prosecution of this war?

I think that it is imperative now to apply fresh thoughts and to bring new ideas to bear on this question of our relationship with sterling. It will not be an easy job at the moment to break the link entirely, but it ought to be an easy job to break parity with sterling, and it ought to be an easy job to look at the situation afresh with a view to seeing what can be done to protect Irish interests in a manner which will ensure that we will not have to bear what I fear will be the crushing fiscal and economic effects of the post-war period because of our present-day anchorage to sterling.

One of the most vital needs of our people to-day, if we are to ensure that full employment will be provided for all our people, is that money should be issued to finance every worthwhile scheme of national development; that there will be no reluctance on the part of the State to issue the necessary credits to put people into employment. Every idle man and woman, every man and woman able and willing to work and who is denied an opportunity of working, is a national loss. The idle man and woman must be fed, clothed and housed. Because of their involuntary idleness they are being maintained at the expense of the community and denied an opportunity of contributing to the pool of wealth out of which the community must maintain them.

The Minister for Finance said on one occasion that there was an abundance of money for every worthwhile scheme. I think that was a terse phrase on the part of the Minister. He knows it has no relation to reality; money is available at 5 per cent. but not otherwise. Mention has been made of the fact that persons are employed on rotational schemes for four or five days a week. When you propose that these people should get six days; in other words, that they should do on the fifth and sixth days what they were doing on the first, second, third and fourth days, you are told they cannot be put to work on the fifth and sixth days because there is no money to keep them in employment. The result is that these unfortunate victims of our present chaotic economic system are compelled to subsist on the fragmentary income they get from four days' work. They are denied an opportunity of getting full wages which would help to give them a better standard of living.

The defence put up by the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary, and the Government generally, as regards rotational employment and their parsimonious attitude in respect of the expenditure of money on schemes of national utility, is that the cost is too high and money cannot be spared; but it seems to me that in the circumstances of to-day, and in our circumstances at any time, cost is a trifling matter if we can only produce goods against expenditure and if we can only ensure that these goods are efficiently produced and distributed. I think that unless the Government recognises that the expenditure of money with which to put men and women into full employment represents the only real road to prosperity this nation will stagger on from one economic blizzard to another, and that the actual poverty endured by large sections of the people and the appallingly low standard of living of our people will become a permanent basis of economic servitude.

The need for mobilising our resources in material wealth and man-power is greater to-day than it has been at any time before in our history. The events of the past fortnight have an ominous meaning for this nation, and we must realise that those threats of isolation that are now being made against us may assume very serious proportions. They have yet to be implemented but, if they are implemented, then we must meet them with the characteristic courage of our people, and meet them in the spirit that difficulties are made in order to be surmounted. While on this subject, perhaps I might take the opportunity of saying that the whole nation is behind the Government in the stand it has taken recently. I, as a member of the Defence Conference, have had an opportunity of considering many aspects of our national defence, and I am breaking no confidence or giving away no secret when I say that in all the meetings of the Defence Conference the one impression made on me was the Government's scrupulous desire to maintain strictly the policy of neutrality, so far as our country was concerned, as between the different belligerents.

Every possible precaution, every possible care, and the greatest prudence were exercised by the Government and by the members of all the Parties who constituted the Defence Conference, to ensure that there could be no reflection on our attitude concerning the preservation of our neutrality as between the different belligerents. I think that an examination of the proceedings of the Defence Conference, and of the Government's handling of both national and international affairs, will show that there is no other country in the world which has maintained such a correct appreciation of what strict neutrality involves, and which acted with such commendable fairness towards the belligerents. I think that it should also be said, not merely for the information of our own people, but for the information of the peoples of the world generally, that the reply sent by our Government to the various Notes was not the reply merely of the Fianna Fáil Party, but of our united nation—a nation which is striving, as it always has done, to maintain its rights and its own honourable way of life. The reply issued by the Government to these Notes was a reply, not merely by the Party now in office but a reply reflecting the sentiments which every Irish man and Irish woman feels to-day. Our stand in this matter has been dictated solely by Irish needs, and that standard also conforms to international law.

We seek no domination over other lands or other countries. We merely seek to preserve our rights and our neutrality, as other nations sought to preserve their neutrality until such aggression as is now threatened against us forced them into the war, but if there is still left any respect for peace-time international morality, then we have a right to expect that no aggression will be resorted to against us, and that no sanctions will be imposed upon us—and especially that no such demand should be made upon us by nations which profess to the rest of the world that they are liberty-loving nations. If there are to be sanctions imposed upon us or aggression undertaken against us, they cannot be justified on any moral basis or by any reliance on international law. The imposition of sanctions, and the threat of aggression, can only be justified on the ground of the frenzied necessities of war, and let it be said that they cannot be justified on any other ground.

In such times, vigilance must be the watch-word of our nation. Nothing should be allowed to stand in the way of the preservation of our liberty and our national rights; and if, faced with the crisis with which we are faced to-day—a crisis which may be a continuing one, and which might lead to an eruption here—we fail to ensure that our people may be enabled to face the crisis that exists at present and the greater crisis that may yet be in store for us, and to enable them to preserve our liberty in the face of any difficulties which may manifest themselves, then posterity will pass judgment upon us, and rightly so, and I think that it will not be a judgment which will reflect much credit upon us. If the emergency through which we are passing, and the crisis in which we are now to some extent involved, demonstrates one thing more than another, it is the necessity for national and economic awareness, and the real necessity for that awareness shows itself particularly in what might be described as "the food front." Food is our chief defence line. It could be quite easily our weakest line of defence, but it ought to be our strongest line. We have at our disposal 12,000,000 acres of arable land—arable land which is the envy of Europe. The cultivation of 3,000,000 acres of that land would satisfy the demands of our people, and those who are responsible for the development of that land and for its administration must ensure that of those 12,000,000 acres not less than 3,000,000 acres will be used for production. In that connection, I may say that the greatest mistake that could be made in connection with this question of a possible food shortage is to haggle over the price that will be paid to the producers or the wages that will be paid to the workers. I think it ought to be an easy matter to get the goodwill of the whole agricultural community: first, by giving the farmer a remunerative price for his crops, and, secondly, by ensuring that the agricultural labourer will be given a proper wage and a fair share of the produce of his labour. That can be done, first, by giving the farmer a good price for his products, and, secondly, by insisting that the farmer will pay a reasonable wage to the agricultural labourer. Here, again, I should like to draw attention to the methods of our agricultural production. What is the use of haggling about money or prices if our people are starving? We are told about sterling assets, but what is the use of giving to Britain goods to the value of £2 if we are only getting £1 in return, and getting the remaining £1 in the shape of a credit note which may not be honoured on demand, while, at the same time, our people are unable to get food here?

At present we are exporting to Britain twice as much as Britain is giving us, and, while some people seem to take a delight in what is described as a favourable balance of trade, I think we are doing to-day something which is simply economic daftness. We have a relatively small productivity and we are exporting to Britain a very substantial portion of it. I do not say this in any spirit of hostility to Britain—the argument is the same if it were being sent to Germany or Russia. Of the limited produce we have here, we are giving Britain a substantial portion and Britain is giving us back half the value of it and is chalking up in the Bank of England a credit which we know perfectly well we cannot use during this war, because Britain is taking most effective steps to freeze our external assets, and which, in the circumstances of the post-war period, we may not be able to use either.

I think Deputy McGilligan was perfectly right when he pointed out yesterday that, in the post-war period, Britain will endeavour to pay her overseas debts in goods, and if her overseas debts are paid in goods to those who are her allies in this war, there may be very little goods available for us; but even if these goods were there, Britain is certainly not going to give us goods and take our sterling investments in lieu of them. If she gives us goods, it will probably be on a barter basis, on the basis that we send goods to Britain against the goods she sends us, and our sterling assets in the meantime will continue to be frozen. I put it to the Government now that they ought to make a serious effort, by means of a long-term agricultural policy, to fix prices for agricultural produce for several years to come in order to let the farmer know what he may expect for many years ahead and to pay to the agricultural labourer a wage which will enable him to enjoy a decent standard of living and which will beget his goodwill and his enthusiasm for the essential task of producing the maximum quantity of food for the nation.

If we can ensure for ourselves an abundance of food, if we can ensure that by paying the agricultural worker a decent wage and the farmer a decent price for his produce, then we are spending the money in the family, and, I never yet knew a family which became poor by distributing the family's assets amongst the various prudent members comprising the family. We, apparently, are satisfied with a situation in which we irritate the farmer for months and months by haggling over prices and in which we keep the agricultural worker in a state of constant indignation by our failure to pay him a decent rate of wages, and, in circumstances like those, and being in the position of a beleaguered island, we expect to produce here the necessary food for the maintenance of our human and livestock population.

Similarly in regard to fuel. I have grave fears for the whole fuel position in the coming year. I think it is known to everybody that timber is in pretty short supply. It is extremely difficult to get timber now and I think the difficulties will intensify as the months pass. Transport problems may intensify our turf problems because of the difficulty of getting turf transported from the turf to the non-turf areas, and, because the available labour power is not fully employed or thoroughly organised, I think our turf production this year will be found to be less than last year. We continue, as Deputy Healy said, to indulge in the most wasteful of all luxuries: the carting of useless wet turf from faraway places to the City of Dublin and wasting the time of those who cut the turf, wasting the railway wagons, wasting the man-power employed, wasting petrol, wasting tyres and generally irritating everybody who has any association with the wet turf. I think the Government ought to think, and to get somebody to help them in the thinking process, in respect of turf production. It is the most criminal form of waste to send to the City of Dublin and other large centres of population a good deal of turf which I see on the roads and in railway trucks. Some of it is light brown turf—yellow turf, they would call it in some areas because of its poor quality.

It is not capable of standing up to the weather; it is not capable of giving a decent fire; and it is not capable of being stopped from going into mould. The only thing it is capable of doing is wasting the time of people who have any association with it, taking up space and generally irritating the citizens on whom the thing is unfortunately passed off. If we are to avoid what I think will be a very severe fuel shortage, and a particularly severe fuel shortage if there is a restriction on the export to this country of coal from Britain, we must make sure now, and not at the end of the turf-cutting season, that turf cutting will be made attractive to the producer. It is a well-known fact that the producer gets only a small percentage of the price at which turf is sold in the City of Dublin. I should wager that turf is probably being produced at less than 24/- per ton, and in the City of Dublin the same turf costs 64/- a ton, plus a subsidy of about £1 8s. in order to enable it to be sold at that figure. What is wrong with the whole turf distribution scheme that turf, which is being produced at £1 4s. per ton, is being sold at 64/- per ton and then has to be subsidised to the extent of £1 8s. per ton in order to enable it to be sold at 64/- per ton? If there is anything more daft than that I do not know what it is, but we sail on merrily, satisfied that that is the best that can be done and taking no steps whatever to remedy such a situation.

If we are not to fall into the mistake of permitting a serious fuel shortage, which could conceivably cause considerable public disturbance, to arise, I think that at this stage turf cutting should be made attractive to every person capable of cutting turf, and it can be made attractive in one way, that is, by paying those who produce turf a decent family wage, and fortified then by the satisfaction that these persons are paid a decent family wage, we can appeal to their national pride and their sense of national preservation to win the maximum quantity of turf. We can get turf produced in greater quantities in that way than by attempting to defend the present low rates of wages paid to the turf cutters, or by attempting to justify the outrageously high prices being charged for rubbishy turf in Dublin and many other cities and towns through the country.

Another aspect of the present emergency, and one which grows worse as time goes on, is the serious economic position of the workers. The Minister for Finance told us, in 1939, I think, that the Government intended to set its face against the attempt of any one class to make profit out of the emergency; the clear implication of the speech he then made and amplified in the Budget statement the following year, was that if there was to be control of wages, a pegging down of wages on the one hand, there would be rigid control of prices on the other. Everybody now realises that his undertakings were wholly illusory as far as they represented Government policy or intent. Prices have been allowed to rise so rapidly that many commodities are now out of the reach of ordinary working-class families. Prices have been allowed to rocket skywards while the wages of the workers have been kept down to an inordinately low level. The effect of the policy of permitting prices to rise, while keeping wages low, is that the pre-war £ is now only worth 9/- from the point of view of buying capacity. When we talk of agricultural workers or road workers having a wage of £2 a week let us remember that wage in pre-war buying value represents only 18/-. That situation is the inevitable outcome of the policy of permitting prices to rise while on the other hand keeping wages inordinately low.

I do not know if the Minister or the Government fully appreciate what a keen struggle ordinary working-class people have to live in the days through which we are passing or their herculean efforts to buy food, clothes and footwear. Many families, even where the bread-winner is working, are unable to pay the current prices of articles of clothing and footwear. I was speaking yesterday to a man with a wife and seven children. One appreciates what the expenditure of that family on food and clothing must be. That man's wages were £3 2s. weekly and, when I met him, he was coming out of a shop where he had bought a pair of boots for a daughter aged 20. He had to pay 31/- for the boots out of his wages of £3 2s., and then provide food and clothing for a family of nine persons. One has only to walk through the streets of this city and other towns to realise that there is, so far as exterior appearances go, a very notable debasement in the standard of living of the working class.

In many cases their clothes are poor and tattered, while boots and shoes are bad. Most appalling is the degrading spectacle of little children running around in their bare feet, or with some type of equipment for their feet, masquerading as boots and shoes. One has only to walk through the poor quarters to realise the amount of poverty and suffering that exists. I am assured by social workers in the Society of Saint Vincent de Paul that even in the new areas of Crumlin, Kimmage and Drimnagh there is considerable privation and hardship because of the rising prices and of the low wages of the people living there.

It is probably inevitable in a time of war, when sources of supply are cut off, or seriously restricted, that there will be some hardship, but the whole policy of the Government is, in my opinion, based upon a misconception of the value and purpose of money. The Government seems to be satisfied that the way to tide over this crisis is to debase the standard of living of the people, and that the country can be prosperous while the wages of workers are kept low. I think that is economic heresy. I do not think it could be justified. I do not think there can be any sound economic justification for a policy which manifests itself in a constant lowering of the standard of living of the mass of the people. While workers see their standard of living forced down, while it is harder than ever to buy the barest necessities of life, and while footwear and clothing are unpurchaseable by many families, on the other hand they see large industrialists able to gather in wealth, and able to make larger profits, even by handling a lesser quantity of goods. They also see that what these industrialists cannot distribute in the form of exorbitant profits, they can store away for use some other day. I do not think anybody can pretend to be complacent about the standard of physical health of the nation to-day. The great scourge of tuberculosis continues defiantly. No effective steps have been taken to combat that disease in a manner which gives hope that its progress will be arrested at an early date. So long as the people are underfed, badly clad, and badly housed, as they are in the present emergency circumstances, it seems to me that we are simply embarking on a policy of aiding and abetting the development of T.B. by our inability to take effective steps to control its progress.

Every county medical officer of health who has reported on the standard of health in the county which he administers has been compelled to call attention to the growth of malnutrition. Rickets continue to blight child life in this city as well as in other cities and towns. From my knowledge of conditions in Dublin and of towns in my constituency I believe that if there was a close investigation of living conditions of a large section of the working-class people, a state of affairs would be revealed which would shock our sense of complacency to-day. Reports made from time to time by medical officers interested in social work reveal a deplorably low standard of health amongst young children who will be the citizens of to-morrow. Apparently we are content with a situation when, even in the early days of their lives, the physique of these children is being blighted by malnutrition and poverty associated with low wages or no wages. If we are going to permit that condition of affairs to develop, the future Irish nation will pay a very heavy price for our incompetence and our legislative laziness. Reflecting on these things one is tempted to ask: Why should all this be allowed to happen? Why should we compel our people to tolerate a low standard of living? Why should we permit poverty, malnutrition and various other diseases which have an economic origin to inflict such privation on our people? Why should we tolerate such a state of affairs when we have the capacity to alter it? If they were the consequence of invasion one could understand them flowing from invasion. Why do we deliberately set out to inflict such hardship and suffering on our people? It may be quite useless to do it in present circumstances, but I want to make a plea for a new, a Christian conception of life in this country towards the mass of our people, for a conception of life which will do some honour to our Christian past.

I put it to the Government that this crisis may well provide the opportunity of abandoning the pagan economic philosophies to which we have been anchored too long. I want to plead for a state of society and a condition of life, in which the State, acting for the community, will guarantee to every citizen who serves the nation a full and decent life for the service which he renders. I want the State to say to each and every citizen who serves the nation that he will be entitled, as part of the State's recognition of his service, to a share in the national heritage of public well-being. I want the State to say to the citizen that, in his daily life, in his service on behalf of the nation, the State will stand behind him, guaranteeing him decent wages and regular employment, and guaranteeing to him that, in want and poverty, in sickness and adversity, it will help him and befriend him. I make the plea that, in old age, a grateful nation will insulate the aged citizen from the shocks to which, unfortunately, old age accompanied by poverty exposes him to-day.

It seems to me to be a challenge to our statesmanship and to our capacity that we live in an age which has given us the most fiendishly efficient instruments of death and destruction, and the genius, the capacity and the so-called statesmanship which can give us those fiendishly efficient instruments of destruction but which cannot give the ordinary, simple, honest-to-God citizen a life which will ensure him three meals per day. That is a challenge to our capacity and a challenge to our statesmanship, but it is even more—it is a challenge to whether we have any real Christian philosophy within us at all. I refuse to believe, so far as this country is concerned, that the emigrant ship, the labour exchange and the workhouse, are the natural destinies of our Irish men and women. I think it is nothing short of a mockery of our Constitution that these evils should still haunt tens of thousands of our Irish men and women, in this fertile land of ours.

This crisis could be a valuable crisis to us, if it shakes us into a sense of human values and away from philosophies that have given us such evils as poverty, malnutrition and want, and if it teaches us that men and women are the most cherished assets which this or any other nation could have. I suggest to the Government, in the fifth year of the war—and I have submitted the same plea on every previous year of the war—that it should take stock, that it should realise the tendencies which are current to-day, that it should weigh and appraise the economic hardships and the social miseries which abound in this country to-day.

As Deputy Linehan has rightly said —I think he speaks not merely for his own Party but for every good citizen —there is an abundance of co-operation available in the economic field. I suggest to the Government that, in the course of its stocktaking, it should make up its mind to seek and to utilise the abundance of goodwill which is there available, in all Parties, for a mass attack on the social evils which confront our people to-day. I believe that the utilisation of that goodwill, properly directed, is capable of safeguarding our people from very many of the evils which, unfortunately, press so heavily on them to-day. I believe that goodwill, properly organised and properly directed, could avert what I fear will be still greater evils; and I believe that the implementation of a policy of national goodwill in the realm of our economic activities would enable our people to see a bright horizon, holding out the hope of a decent life. It might do something more: it might result in an abandonment of that bleakness and drabness which, unfortunately, surrounds the lives of tens of thousands of our people to-day.

Last night, Deputy Fionán Lynch recited a litany of commodities which have increased in price in the past four years. It struck me that it would have been much easier for him to look for a commodity which has not increased in price in the last four years. I do not believe he or anyone else would find one such commodity which is in general use and which has not been increased in price in the last four years. That is the result of the complete failure of the Government to control prices. Much has been said about that in the past two days and on many previous occasions, and that complete failure cannot be denied. Coupled with the keeping down of wages, it has resulted in great hardship and privation to the workers.

The few shillings increase permitted in wages—after elaborate and costly Wages Tribunal procedure—is worth very little to a worker. I think 11/- is the maximum increase at present, while the cost of living for the average man has not gone up by a penny less than £2 per week since 1939. For the lucky few who have got the increase, it is not nearly enough; but what of those large sections who have not got any increase whatsoever? Many are on small incomes and have not been able to get emergency bonuses or increases in wages, because they have not been organised. Others who are organised are still numerically too weak to let their voices be heard above the clamour.

I spoke in similar strains here a few months ago, on the Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department. I quoted one example which I had in mind, and I make no apology for putting forward the very same case again, as it is a terrible scandal. On the Royal Canal we have, employed by the infamous Great Southern Railways, 17 lock-keepers, full-time workers, whose total wage packet is £28 11s. I have the Christian names and surnames of those 17 men before me now, setting out which locks they control and the exact amount of money each receives. One man is getting £1 1s. 9d.; another is getting £1 3s. 9d. I am glad Deputy Carter is here, because on this list is Thomas Rogers, of whom he spoke about a fortnight ago. He is down as receiving £1 9s. 9d. for controlling four locks. That man has a family of nine and I do not suppose he will have any objection to my mentioning that I heard that a charity dance had to be run recently to raise money to help him and his wife and nine children.

Has the Minister for Finance any control over the appointment of these men?

This has reference to the cost of living, which has gone up terribly, while these men have not received one penny increase. Before the stand-still Order was brought in their wages were ridiculously inadequate—£28 11s. 0d. between them, or an average of £1 13s. 7d. That is a crying shame. This great company, the Great Southern Railway Company, which talks in millions of pounds and whose passenger receipts alone run into tens of thousands of pounds, has refused to grant a penny increase to these men and their wives and starving families. When I brought up this matter in November last, the Taoiseach on that occasion made a long speech in reply to the debate on his Estimate. Here is part of what he said—I am quoting from Volume 91, column 2629, of the Official Reports of 19th November, 1943:—

"We first began with those at the level which could not afford to be further depressed. We said there was a certain level. There may be a difference of opinion between us as to the level we should try to draw. There were certain people, anyhow, at such a low level that if you depressed it any more the hardship was going to be excessive. We tried to rule these out and allow them to negotiate with their employers, or otherwise, so that they might raise themselves up to that particular level. At a later stage we felt that the level was somewhat low and we raised it. A certain system was arrived at by which adjustments could be made by going before a tribunal."

The Government allowed men like these lock-keepers to negotiate with their employers. I suggest that that is not good enough and that in cases like these there should be some form of compulsion on the employers to pay a decent living wage. The Taoiseach, on a famous occasion, spoke about the possibility of having to go outside the system if the system did not operate to give a measure of frugal comfort to everybody. I seriously suggest to the Minister for Finance, as I suggested on the former occasion to the Taoiseach, that cases like these, of which there are thousands, should make the Government think once more about changing radically the present wage system.

Times are certainly changed when, on the occasion of the Book of Estimates being presented to us, we find that there is hardly one to criticise the increase in the Estimates. That does not look well for the Farmers' Party who came in here with the blare of trumpets to see that things would be cut down drastically. I hold that if there were any honesty in this House or in the country, the Estimates could be drastically reduced. There are too many doles and sops being given to people who are giving no return for them to the country. I listened to Deputy Norton talking about what could be done in this country and more or less suggesting that we could have a heaven upon earth here. I think he will realise that he is far from seeing that being attained either by his Party or the Government. It is easy to talk in terms like that. But, when you find sops being doled out for ten years to hold the people in political subjection, it is difficult to see that in this State business methods will be the order of the day.

The harder a man works here the less he is appreciated. The waster, the chancer, those who can get money easily are considered to be the best men in the country. Hard work is not appreciated and the dry rot will continue until honesty comes back. Although I dread this crisis coming upon the people when they are not prepared for it, I hope the crisis will make people realise where they stand. There is too much drifting in this country. Nobody seems to care what will happen to us. That applies to everybody from the Government down. Pandering to popular clamour has caused these Estimates to be swollen as they are. I think it is time that stopped and the Government should give a headline to the country. The Minister can smile, because he can say:—"I have you all tied up with the family allowances scheme. You shouted for that and I gave it to you. I told you that if I heard you whining within the next few months, I would let you know about it."

The chief cause for the national and economic decline for the last 10 or 15 years is because we are not getting a proper output from the people working on the land or from the people who are working in industry or on the bogs or anywhere else. There is no question about that, but it has not been touched upon. As a farmer, working amongst farmers, I can say that if our land were worked as it should be—I know that there are certain circumstances which keep people from doing that at the present time—one acre would be as good as three acres are now. We are not getting the proper output from the land. In my county I have seen thousands of acres of wheat wasting and rotting because nobody could be got to harvest it at the proper time, or no machinery to thresh it; it was left there to rot and to be eaten by rats and crows. That is a terrible state of affairs at a time when we cannot afford to lose one barrel of wheat or oats or barley.

Taking agriculture in general, I am not one of those who are always whining about the farmers and arguing that they are always down and out. I am satisfied that the farmers themselves do not want that sort of whining at all. Most farmers, at the present time, are doing reasonably well. They are getting fair prices for their sheep and cattle and for oats and barley. On the whole they are doing well, and some of them, a great many, are able to pay off old debts which accrued during the economic war. These farmers are not whining. What they do complain about is that the Government do not appreciate their position.

The first thing the Government should look after is the problem of finance. Numbers of farmers around my county with holdings varying from 30 to 50 acres had not the wherewithal to buy a horse or a plough, or two horses as the case might be, at the outbreak of the emergency. The Government should have stepped in then to see that the farmers got the money to provide these things so that they would not have to depend on their neighbours to do their ploughing and sowing for them, often incurring a delay of three to five weeks in getting in their crops and a similar delay at harvest time. The failure of the Government to provide money for these farmers was a severe set-back to agricultural development.

As regards wheat-growing, while I say that it is necessary to produce wheat, I hold without fear of contradiction that it is not a paying proposition for any man, although I know we must grow the wheat. Farmers are prepared to lose on the wheat because there is a chance of recovering their loss on cattle or on oats. The price of wheat is disgracefully low. You cannot expect a farmer to produce it when oats gives him such a good profit. After growing wheat for two or three years, he will get a yield of only four or five barrels per acre, while on the same land he might get 15 to 20 barrels of oats and that is a vast difference. You can see the profit that oats will give you. The price of wheat should be far in advance of oats or barley or any other crop. There should be a definite encouragement to farmers to grow wheat although they know it is always a hard crop and one that gives a poor return.

In my view, the farmer should have at least £4 a barrel for his wheat and no nonsense about it, because he has generally to grow it on the same land for two or three years in succession and very often cannot get the right seed to put in. Very often the seed is rubbishy and weedy and hardly fit for pigs. Then there is the lack of machinery. I believe the Government could have got ample machinery four or five years ago. When the emergency began there was no reason why they did not spend £1,000,000 on machinery. My own county is not a tillage county, but to-day you find men with 150 acres of tillage in it and they are seriously handicapped by not having proper equipment. They are often months behind time in trying to turn up the land, and have often to wait for six weeks in the hope that a tractor will come along. There is no reason why the Government should not have come to the rescue in time. In my own area last week I saw a man who had a very fine-looking rick of wheat. He expected to get up to 130 barrels from that rick and he had it well secured for the winter.

After telling many of his neighbours, progressive farmers, not to buy seed wheat because he would have it, he threshed the rick. They were waiting for him to thresh it and what was the result? All he got out of that huge rick of wheat was 32 barrels, and the farmers depending on him have now to rush to the seed firms and the Government. All they can get is the new Manitoba wheat from Canada, which will yield only four barrels to the acre. I asked what was the cause of the rick turning out so badly as it did and was told that the grain was not reaped in time and that at least four barrels to the acre had been lost in the field before the crop was ricked. The cause of that was that there were neither men nor machines to help that farmer. It is all very well talking about production. What is the use of production if you cannot reap and harvest the crop in time? One acre properly done will yield as much as three acres badly done.

Of course, a great many Deputies are talking about the social services. We all agree that the lower-paid people in this country and those living on home help are in a desperate plight. It is on their shoulders that this burden is bearing so heavily. I have no respect for the higher paid man, or even for the farmer, but I would ask the Government to do something to help the people who have to live on 25/- a week.

People who are on home help are in a desperate plight, and were it not for the charity of their neighbours, they might be found dead in their own homes. I would ask the Government, for God's sake, to do something for these people who are in misery, the people who are crushed down by the burden of the emergency. I do not care where the money comes from, but let us get them help immediately.

I feel that we are not getting the required output in turf production. Take the case in my own county. We have a vast scheme under the county council and thousands of men are on the bogs. Beside those workers, we have a private concern headed by an energetic man who worked his way from the bottom to the top, and he is able to turn three sods for every one sod turned by the employees of the county council. Why is that? My idea is that the men employed by the county council have not the initiative to work because the wage rates are so small. I would prefer to see more private enterprise. Under the present arrangement we are not getting an adequate return from the county council scheme, and it is just a waste of money. What the hell do people care when they are working under a ganger, a hundred of them, perhaps? If he says anything to them they will tell him to go to hell.

I think the Deputy might leave these epithets on the bog.

My belief is that we need more private enterprise on the bog. If a private individual on the bog can make a profit, surely the county council officials should make a better job of it? There is far too much waste and we have to pay through the nose for it.

I hold that it is nearly a criminal offence to give the dole in the agricultural parts of the country. The men who are looking for the dole should be made to toe the line. Many of them are continually on the dole while at the same time other poor devils are up to their necks in work. Another scandal which should be tackled is that of the black market. In my own county there is a black market in what might be called the necessaries of life. You have only to go to the village and pay the price if you want tea or sugar or tobacco. I blame the Government for that. The Border was not responsible for the growth of the black market. The commodities are coming down from the shops of Dublin and the Government should be alive to the situation. Tea costs as much as 6d., 7d. 8d. or 10d. an ounce in the black market and people pay it just to have the tea. Half their wages goes in buying what they call necessaries. Every effort should be made to discourage the black market and the Government should take steps to conduct a thorough search of the wholesale houses to ascertain what they have in their stores. These houses are doing away with the trade of the country shopkeeper at the expense of the small wage-earner in this country. It is really a disgrace.

This State is very poorly organised from the point of view of finance and man-power at the present time. There is work for every man if we mobilise finance. We should find work for them and not send them away from what is called the land of the free, to work in another country. We were told years ago that under a policy of self-sufficiency, we could build a tariff wall around the country and that we could live comfortably on our own resources. Now when a crisis comes upon us, we find that we would not last for seven days either as regards food supplies or the supplies of any other commodity. I blame the Government for that. They were always telling the people what a great country we had. Here we are now in the teeth of a crisis with neither leadership, initiative nor anything to encourage us, with everybody going his own way, everyone trying to "best" his neighbour and no one trying to work honestly. We are told that we could run the country on its own resources but that now we are likely to flop at the first fence. I know that the majority of the people themselves are to blame. It asked for this Government and it got it and we now see the result in a ruined nation.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-day.
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