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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 1945

Vol. 97 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 61—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £2,108,125 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1946, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c. 74; 8 Edw. 7, c. 48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c. 26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928; No. 14 of 1940 (secs. 30 and 31); No. 14 of 1942 (sec. 23); etc.), and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

The estimated Post Office expenditure for the financial year 1945-46 amounts to £3,225,125, representing a gross increase of £223,364 on the provision for 1944-45, of which approximately £174,080 is due to increased cost of living and emergency bonus. There are offsetting decreases of £62,894, leaving the net increase in expenditure £160,470.

The principal features of the Estimate are as follows:—Sub-heads A (1) to A (4)—Salaries, etc. The gross increase is £203,526, due in the main to increased bonus, which accounts for £151,815; to normal incremental increases; to additional staff provision necessitated by general growth in various classes of work, including additional remuneration to sub-post masters for increased business; provision for officers resuming from Army service, and increased cost of labour in Post Office factory, etc. There are offsetting decreases amounting to £23,316, the result of savings on retirements and lesser number of weekly pay days at certain offices—leaving the net increase under the sub-heads £180,210.

Sub-head E (2)—Conveyance of Mails by Road. There is an increase of £2,570, due to increases in subsidies to mail car contractors to meet advances in maintenance, etc., costs. Sub-head E (5)—Conveyance of Mails by Air. There is a reduction of £13,869 under this sub-head, due to provision having had to be made last year for arrears of payment in respect of Commonwealth air services.

Sub-head G (1)—Non-Engineering Stores. There is an increase of £4,585, due chiefly to increased cost of mail bags; to the purchase of charcoal for gas producer plants and to higher cycle costs. Sub-head G (2)—Uniform Clothing. The decrease is £9,000. Provision above normal had to be made under this sub-head last year due to an anticipated reduction in credits from other Departments. This was due to difficulty in obtaining raw materials and consequent delay in placing contracts. Sub-head G (3)— Manufacture of Stamps, etc. The increase of £1,630 is due to provision of additional watermarked paper for children's allowances orders and to increased price of paper.

Sub-head I (1)—Engineering Salaries, etc. This shows a decrease of £7,075. The gross decrease is £25,890, due mainly to increased relief from telephone capital, against which there are offsetting increases on account of cost-of-living and emergency bonus—£16,315 —staff increments, etc. Sub-head M— Telephone Capital Repayments. Here the increase is £5,873. The repayments are in respect of annuities created under the Telephone Capital Acts, which authorised the Minister for Finance to borrow moneys for the development of the telephone service. The provision to be made each year is notified by the Minister for Finance.

Sub-head N (1) — Superannuation Allowances, etc. The increase here of £12,765 represents an increase in the total payments to pensioners, due to additional retirements; also increased provision for marriage and death gratuties, bonus, etc. Sub-head O (1) —Savings Bank Salaries, etc. The increase of £2,675 under this sub-head is due mainly to increased cost-of-living and emergency bonus. Sub-head O (4)—Stationery, Advertising, etc. The decrease of £7,570 is due to special provision in 1944-45 for advertising of savings bank facilities not being repeated this year. Sub-head O (6)—Losses by Default, Accident, etc. There is a decrease of £2,050. The saving bank losses were higher in the previous year, necessitating increased provision in that year.

Sub-head Q (1)—Salaries, Wages, etc., Civil Aviation and Meteorological Wireless Services. There is an increase of £3,250, representing mainly the cost of increased technical staff and of labour for new works. Sub-head Q (2) —Civil Aviation Equipment, etc. The decrease is £17,190. A special provision of £17,000 was made in 1944-45 for the payment of outstanding accounts in respect of radio equipment supplied. Sub-head T — Appropriations-in-Aid. This shows a reduction of £7,081, due mainly to decreased receipts from savings bank funds and from other administrations in respect of agency services performed for them, e.g., payment of money orders and postal orders.

The financial position of the three main services—postal, telegraph and telephone—on a commercial basis at the end of 1943-44 (the latest year for which complete figures are available) was as follows: Postal services— surplus £114,621; telephone service— surplus £247,703; telegraph service— deficiency £73,685; showing a net surplus of £288,639 on the three services. This surplus is estimated to have dropped to approximately £89,000 at the end of the financial year just completed (1944-45). Although the revenue of each service increased substantially last year increase was more than counter-balanced by increased administrative and operating costs—mainly cost-of-living bonus.

The past year was one of considerable difficulty for the Department in connection with the maintenance of the internal mail services, by reason of the drastic restrictions in railway transport which became operative in April, 1944, as a consequence of the emergency coal situation and which involved an almost complete reorganisation of the mail arrangements. Passenger services generally, except on certain local lines, were reduced from six days a week or two, and, on the days on which the passenger trains did not run, the Department was dependent for the conveyance of mails upon much less expeditious transport —goods trains, lorries and buses— running at times only moderately suitable for Post Office purposes. Certain branch lines were closed, and, generally, the transmission of correspondence was closed down, especially in areas in which travelling post offices had to be withdrawn. There was, however, no serious dislocation of service, and I am glad to acknowledge that the railway company did everything in its power to meet Post Office requirements in the very difficult circumstances. The position improved somewhat in July, 1944, when passenger train services were increased to four days a week and additional bus services provided. The Department has kept the closest possible watch on the situation, and has availed of every opportunity that presented itself to improve the mail arrangements. So long, however, as the present restricted transport facilities continue, the existing postal services are the best that can be afforded in areas served by Córas Iompair Éireann. As far as the employment of postal staff is concerned, the mail service restrictions have, fortunately, had little adverse effect.

I am glad to be able to report an improvement in the postal services in North-West Donegal. Since 25th November last the night mails for the Letterkenny area have been conveyed by special service from Strabane to Letterkenny, and under the new arrangements it has been possible to have the mails ready for despatch from Letterkenny Post Office at 6 a.m. As a result of the new arrangements, deliveries along the entire Burtonport line have been accelerated and the scheduled time of arrival at Burtonport is now 9.5 a.m. as compared with 12.35 p.m. previously. There has also been substantial improvement in the postal services in the Rathmullen, Milford, Downings and Rossnakill areas.

Postal traffic during the year, apart from the Christmas period, showed little variation as compared with the previous year, the upward trend in parcel traffic continuing. The traffic during the Christmas period was extremely heavy, but the satisfactory response to appeals for early posting, combined with the restoration of normal train services during the fortnight before Christmas, enabled the Department to effect delivery of all Christmas mails before Christmas Day.

As regards cross-Channel mail services, for a period of four months last year the sailings of the Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead Packet were restricted to three days a week in each direction owing to circumstances outside the control of this Administration. By the use of the cargo boats from and to the North Wall it was, however, possible to maintain the cross-Channel mail services without serious impairment. The normal emergency services were restored in July last.

Postal communication with foreign countries generally has undergone little change during the past 12 months. Hostilities in Western Europe last summer caused interruption of the services to France and other European countries, with the exception of Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Russia. Limited services are, however, again in operation with the Vatican City, with Southern Italy (including Sardinia and Sicily) and with France and Belgium. The service to Switzerland which was suspended for a time has been restored. The transmission of foreign correspondence generally is, of course, subject to serious delay.

The various air mail services continue to be used extensively. In addition to approximately 300,000 air-graphs, over 38,000 ordinary air letters were despatched by Commonwealth Air Services last year. Air mail services to the Continent of Europe which had been suspended for some months have now been partially restored. It is hoped to introduce a 6d. Commonwealth air letter service in the near future. Foreign parcel post traffic, which showed a material decline in 1943-44, is again growing. Over 281,000 parcels were received and 4,800 despatched last year, as compared with 111,100 received and 2,600 despatched in the previous year. Events are happening so rapidly that we may anticipate a marked improvement in external services in the near future.

There is little new to be said about the telegraphs. While the service continues to benefit from emergency traffic, especially telegraph money orders, expenditure has grown considerably by reason of increased operating costs. It is estimated that at present the loss on the service is approximately £113,000, as compared with £73,600 at the end of March, 1944. There is nothing the Department can do to improve the position.

The growth of the telephone service continues. Notwithstanding the suspension of the cross-Channel service for five months, there were 686,000 more trunk calls in 1944 than in the previous year; while the increase in local calls was 2,000,000. As an indication of the extraordinary development of the service since pre-war days, I may mention that in 1938 trunk and local calls numbered respectively 3,297,000 and 30,000,000; the figures for 1944 were 6,630,000 and 43,000,000 respectively—representing percentage increases of 101 and 43. With these remarkable figures in mind and taking into account that line construction and other stores are unobtainable, it is not surprising that the standard of service, particularly of the trunk service, is at times adversely affected, especially at peak traffic hours. Everything possible is done to keep delay to a minimum, but as the capacity of circuits is limited, delay at times cannot be avoided. Even so, apart from peak hours, a very substantial proportion of trunk calls is dealt with "on demand", that is, while the caller remains at the telephone.

Lest the Department may be again charged, as it has been previously charged, with a want of foresight in relation to the provision of reserve stocks of telephones and telephone plant, let me repeat what I said on the matter a year ago when presenting the Estimate for the last financial year. I pointed out that, as far back as 1938, when the European situation showed signs of disturbance, reserve stocks to the value of £100,000 had been purchased. At the outbreak of the emergency we had actually a reserve of three years' supply—quite a reasonable provision at the time. But the emergency brought its immediate telephone problems and the huge network of communications that had to be arranged for the Defence services, on a scale that could not possibly have been anticipated by the Post Office, ate rapidly into the reserve. Supplementary stocks, up to the limits obtainable, were subsequently secured, but they had to be drawn upon to meet the requirements of the abnormal traffic which developed from emergency conditions.

In connection with the replenishment of stocks it has, of course, to be borne in mind that the materials employed for engineering purposes have in the main to be imported and that, as they are materials of a type in large demand by the belligerent countries, it has been impossible to procure them for our purposes in anything like adequate quantities. We have managed to keep going during the past few years only by resort to very special expedients, as, for example, by getting the utmost possible life out of spare and recovered materials, expending on reconditioning money in excess of what would be justified if normal sources of supply were still available. I regret that I see no prospect of any material improvement in the supply position at an early date. In the extremely difficult circumstances, however, I think that the service afforded has, on the whole, been as satisfactory as could reasonably be expected.

The total number of subscribers' circuits at the end of 1944 was 32,773, an increase of 1,357 during the year. There was an increase of 1,135 in the number of subscribers connected to the automatic exchanges. The position as regards new subscribers is that, owing to shortage of instruments, of underground cable and of wire for overhead circuits, it has recently been necessary to impose further restrictions on the provision of service. A list of priorities has been drawn up, preference being given to essential and emergency services, hospitals, doctors, etc., and this must be rigidly adhered to until the supply position improves. Meantime, however, Deputies may rest assured that every effort will continue to be made to afford service where there are special circumstances.

At the end of January last, a severe gale, followed by snow and frost, caused considerable damage to the telephone and telegraph plant throughout most of the country, more especially in the south-east, where the damage in the Wexford, Waterford and Kilkenny areas was very extensive. A large number of trunk circuits was put out of service and large numbers of subscribers were cut off. All possible steps were taken to repair the damage as rapidly as possible and normal working was generally restored by the end of the month.

A 3-channel carrier system was opened between Dublin and Clonmel during the year and steps are well advanced for bringing a Dublin-Tralee 3-channel system and an additional Dublin-Limerick 3-channel system into operation in the near future. We have also a promise of delivery during the coming year of a new type of carrier system which will give 10 speaking circuits on the one pair of physical lines. With this new equipment, if delivery is not unduly delayed, a material increase in the long distance circuits throughout the country should take place in the near future. In addition to the circuits to be provided by means of carriers we have, for the coming year, an extensive programme of new overhead circuits. The extent to which the programme can be carried out in practice will, however, depend upon the supply position.

Traffic on the automatic exchanges in Dublin has been very heavy during the past year and continues to grow. In consequence of the impossibility of obtaining additional automatic equipment, the exchanges are working under conditions of considerable difficulty. Schemes for large-scale relief have been prepared and will be put into operation as soon as plant is forthcoming.

I may mention an interesting development in regard to the limitation of calls from call offices in the Dublin area. All automatic coin box installations, including all the street kiosks, have been fitted with equipment which limits the time of local calls to five minutes after the number dialled has replied. A warning of the termination of the call is given by "pips". It is estimated that the number of calls thus restricted is something between 800 and 900 per day, which means that the call offices generally are at the disposal of a much larger number of the public than was formerly the case. The expedient remedies a nuisance which was a source of much public dissatisfaction and one to which attention has frequently been directed during Estimate debates. It is a source of satisfaction to record that the complicated equipment required was designed by our own engineering staff.

It is estimated that, at the present time, the profit on the telephone service is about £247,500, the same as at the end of the year 1943-44. Increased revenue last year of £30,000 was counterbalanced by correspondingly increased expenditure.

In concluding my remarks in regard to telephones, I may say that I anticipate large-scale development of the service in post-war years. The installation of a telephone call office at every post office now without service is intended as part of a five-year plan, and it is also hoped to increase our existing plant sufficiently to cater for double, or even treble, the existing number of subscribers. Preliminary investigations and plans are well advanced.

The value of contracts placed by the Stores Branch last year was £1,431,211, an increase of £53,572 on the figures for the previous year. The value of contracts placed for articles manufactured or assembled within the State was £1,128,235. Difficulty is still being experienced in obtaining tenders for imported stores, or stores manufactured from imported materials, although there have been some signs of improvement in this respect of late, especially in regard to tenders from Great Britain. We have, I may say, left nothing undone, both on our own part and in conjuction with the Department of Supplies, to procure stocks.

The Post Office factory, which was destroyed by fire in November, 1942, has been re-established, and all the shops are at present working. The equipment is satisfactory and the employment given at the moment compares favourably with that prior to the fire. The extent to which this position can be maintained will, of course, depend upon the situation in regard to raw materials and spare parts, which is at present particularly difficult.

With regard to Post Office buildings, final plans for a post office and telephone exchange at St. Andrew Street. Dublin, have been approved but, owing to scarcity of materials, building work cannot yet be undertaken. It will, it is expected, be possible to give the matter early priority after the emergency. It is hoped, too, that construction work on the new district office at Whitehall, Drumcondra, will commence very shortly. In regard to Post Office accommodation generally, I may say that a comprehensive survey is at present being made with a view to effecting improvements as soon as building materials are again available. Serious difficulties for the Department in the matter of accommodation have arisen from the large volume of additional work falling on post offices by reason of the various new social services instituted during the emergency, particularly the children's allowances scheme.

The development of Post Office Savings Bank business proceeds apace. Five years ago annual deposits numbered about 679,000 and amounted to slightly under £3,000,000. In 1944 the number of deposits was in excess of 1,000,000 and the total amount was £8,500,000. Withdrawals, on the other hand, only rose from £2,100,000 to £3,400,000 in the same period. The average amount deposited per transaction five years ago was £4 6s.; it is almost double that amount to-day. One person in every six of the population of the country now has an account, indicating the widespread appeal of the Savings Bank.

In addition to the ordinary deposits a sum of £949,500 was deposited last year by way of investment of moneys received by the Minister for Finance for the credit of trustee savings banks under Section 31 of the Finance Act of 1940 and £31,200 was withdrawn by these banks. Interest credited to the banks during the year amounted to £74,000. The total, inclusive of interest, invested since 21st November, 1940, amounted to £3,143,500. The total amount invested by the public in Savings Certificates during 1944 was £1,511,000, an increase of £336,000 on the figures for the previous year. Withdrawals (principal and interest) amounted to £619,000, leaving a net saving for the year of £892,000.

I have to refer in conclusion to the serious railway accident which occurred on the 20th December last as a result of the night mail train from Dublin having crashed into a stationary cattle train at Straboe, near Portarlington, and which resulted in the death of one of the officers employed in the travelling post office and in serious injury to two others. The regrettable circumstances are well known and it is not necessary for me to refer to them in any detail, but I am glad to say that accidents of such tragic character are rare, both in railway and Post Office history, in this country. In expressing my very deep sympathy with the relatives of the deceased officer and with the officers who were injured—all excellent officials—I wish to pay tribute to the remaining members of the sorting carriage staff whose zeal and devotion to duty on the distressing occasion, under conditions of considerable hardship, were in accordance with the best Post Office traditions. To all concerned, including civilians on the wrecked train and officials from post offices in the vicinity, I return grateful thanks for the valuable assistance so promptly and willingly rendered.

I was sorry, Sir, that I was not able to hear the whole of the Minister's speech, but there are a few points I should like to raise. One is in connection with the time of deliveries in suburban areas. Most people who live in the suburbs and work in Dublin City have to leave their houses, at the very latest, at somewhere around 9 o'clock, and the vast majority of them have to leave a great deal earlier. I am thinking particularly of an area around Sandycove where the post does not arrive until after the people have left their houses. That is a very great inconvenience to citizens in that area. I am not raising this in any confentious spirit. I know that it is not the fault of the postal people in the area. The actual roundsmen do their work very efficiently and are very hardworking men. Possibly it may be due to some effort to save money, and so on, but the length of the postman's round has been so extended that at the end of his round he is very little use to the residents on whom he calls.

Another matter which I have long wanted to raise with the Minister is in connection with the telephone directory. There is a lot of information under the preface and under "How to Use the Telephone", but I do not think it is set out to the best advantage. There is a section, "If You Have a Dial Telephone", which tells one how to lift the receiver, listen, and so on. That is all very necessary, but most people who use the dial telephone pick up the method pretty quickly. What they forget, or perhaps do not know, is, when they want to make a trunk call, what precisely they should do—whether they should dial 0, 39 or 31. I think there is also 30. Although it is in the telephone book, it is not very easy to find it. You will not find under "Trunk Calls" whether you should dial 0, 30 or 39, or if it is there it is rather effectively hidden.

Most people when about to make a trunk call look up the trunk call charges. They read what they are to do and look at how much it will cost them, but they do not find how they are to get on to the proper person in the exchange, and I suggest that, under trunk call charges, there should be shown clearly how to contact the proper person. Granted it is all in the book—I am not making that point— but if I have to make a trunk call, I find that I have to hunt feverishly through the book to find out exactly what to do. I may be a great deal more stupid than the average person, but I certainly find that difficulty and I know that other people find it too.

In connection with the telephone service, we all know that at present we are experiencing a shortage of materials, but, speaking for myself and for other people with whom I have discussed it, I should like to say that telephone subscribers find the men who come to correct faults extremely courteous and efficient. The Minister is to be congratulated on the manner in which he manages that rather difficult side of his Department in these days. I should like the Minister to look into the matter of setting out more clearly how to get on to the correct person in the telephone exchange when making a trunk call and also the matter of the time at which the morning mails are delivered in the Glenageary and Sandycove areas. The vast majority of the people in those areas do not receive their morning mail until they return home in the evening, which is a great inconvenience.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on the good results he has achieved in the past year, and has achieved generally for a number of years. The Post Office service is an extremely good service, and I have no complaints to make, except complaints which arise out of the shortage of materials. Even with the shortage of materials, the telephone service has increased enormously. Due to the partial mechanisation of tillage operations, the telephone has become a great facility and a great help to farmers who very often urgently need parts for machinery. There have been difficulties and delays in getting in touch with firms in Dublin and the larger towns, but these, I understand, are also due to the emergency and the lack of materials.

I am glad the Minister indicated that the telephone service is one which will develop. I believe it will and that it will become a great facility in the rural areas which have been completely cut off. I advocate that as soon as possible he should put up the necessary lines and obviate the delays which farmers often experience in trying to get calls to Dublin.

In general, I have nothing to say about the officials. They have all been extremely courteous and have done their best and any matters to which one might take exception generally arise from restricted space. The onus thrown on post offices, and especially rural post offices, has been made much heavier. They are more or less like the Civic Guards. The Government during the emergency gave a lot of matters to them to administer, the result being that in many of the rural post offices space is not adequate. There is another difficulty, of which the Minister is aware. I have the impression that many of these sub-postmasters are scarcely treated fairly. As far back as 1924, a special payment system was applied to them, but there was a promise—I think, a definite promise—that in a short time it would be reconsidered and their conditions improved. That has not been done. The war broke out, the cost of living went up and these people, very often with extremely low remuneration and with their duties multiplied, have had to engage assitants. Holidays with pay came along and the assistants had to get these holidays, but these sub-postmasters got no increase, except whatever unit system existed for paying them in respect of the telephone and other services. The fact of the matter is that these people are extremely badly paid and their hours are excessive. I know post offices in the country in which the staff have to commence work at 6 o'clock in the morning and with a break after 7 o'clock, have again to be on duty at 11 o'clock to receive mails.

I am sure the Minister himself is aware of a good deal of that. I believe there is some grievance there, and that a more equitable system than the one that exists at present should operate in the future. I would like to hear from the Minister what his opinion is on that. It is quite true that before the war many of those people with sub-post offices were carrying on little businesses, but, like the old age pensions, their businesses were considered to be very important and so their salaries were reduced accordingly. We all know that since the war started these little businesses have practically disappeared. Supplies could not be obtained, with the result that those people were left high and dry. Consequently, for the last four or five years, and, possibly, the same situation will obtain in the future, whatever little side lines they had could not be counted upon to bring in some return to them. That is an added reason, I think, why their position should be considered. Apart from that, I have nothing to say about the Post Office or its staff but what is complimentary. I, and I think the members of the public generally, have always found them most anxious to give a reasonably good service. Where that did not occur it was due entirely to the fact that their space was extremely limited.

The Minister, in the course of his statement, made reference to the extraordinary growth in post office telephone traffic. In saying that he was, of course, only recording what is a well-known fact. Notwithstanding the emergency and the shortage of materials, telephone traffic has continued to increase, and all the indications are that it is likely to expand still more rapidly in the post-war period, as soon as materials are made available to provide the services for which there is an extensive public demand. I think, however, the Minister ought to realise that the Post Office is not keeping pace, from the point of view of building accommodation, with the rapid development there has been in the growth of telephone traffic. It is true, of course, that a new exchange has been opened at Exchequer Street, but I think the Minister will realise—he certainly would realise it if he had to work there— that the accommodation is utterly insufficient for the traffic that is being carried there. The result is that in warm weather particularly, notwithstanding the efforts to get air-cooled conditions in the building, the place is most uncomfortable to work in. In my opinion, it is overcrowded, and is very unpleasant for those who are employed there continuously. Not only is it overcrowded from the staff point of view, but the pressure of work there, particularly on certain positions, is so great as to impose a very severe strain on the staff which is engaged on a type of work that is fatiguing, arduous, onerous and nerve-racking. I would suggest to the Minister that the Post Office Department ought to employ its talents in an effort to try to provide relief for the overcrowded position in the Exchequer Street Exchange. The conditions there, as I have said, impose on the staff very distinct hardships, some of which are of a character which, I think, would yield to treatment. I realise, of course, that it probably will not be possible to get a satisfactory telephone service in Dublin until such time as the St. Andrew Street Exchange is open.

I understood the Minister to say that the final plans for the erection of a new exchange in St. Andrew Street have been prepared, and that the work will be carried out as soon as materials are available. If we are going to have a continued expansion of telephone traffic, it is absolutely essential to have a new exchange in St. Andrew Street made available. Otherwise, the staff are going to be harassed by having to deal with the present volume of telephone traffic, and the public are going to get a very unsatisfactory telephone service. The Minister has told us that these plans have been approved, and to some extent we can appreciate the difficulties of procuring equipment in present circumstances for the fitting up of an exchange of that character. I wonder if the Minister could tell us if the Department has a promise from those from whom the telephone materials have been ordered that these materials will be made available, and, if so, when. Further, can the Minister, at this stage, give us any idea as to when the St. Andrew Street exchange will be made available for the accommodation of telephone staff, and for the diversion to it of the telegraph traffic which is at present being dealt with under very onerous conditions in the Exchequer Street exchange?

I noticed that the Minister ran away from the ghost of the Pearse Street office this evening. It is no wonder that he should. The Minister told us with a great demonstration that the Post Office is making progress, and that it is going to open a new district office in Whitehall. That announcement will not shake the world. Probably it will provide some facilities in the Phibsborough area. It is all very well for the Minister to tell the House that the Post Office Department is going to open a new district office in Whitehall, but he could not tell the House what the Post Office intends to do in the way of providing a central sorting and delivery office for the capital city of the country.

The present building in Pearse Street—a disused distillery—is still a ramshackle building. It has been serving as a central sorting and delivery office for more than 20 years. A very considerable amount of money has been spent patching up that ramshackle building in order that it might continue to serve the function of a central sorting and delivery office. While, as I say, a considerable amount of money has been spent on the building, it is still a ramshackle distillery, and is still an unsuitable central sorting and delivery office. Instead of telling us that the Department had some plans for dealing with a situation of that kind, a situation which surely ought to be troubling the Minister's conscience, he proceeded to skittle away from the Pearse Street Office to tell us that the Department was opening a new district office in Whitehall. The Minister on one occasion had a predecessor known as Deputy Boland, who, in his salad days, told us that the Post Office had plans for the rebuilding of the Pearse Street office, that these plans had reached such an advanced stage that the now cautious Minister for Justice felt he could assure the House that the new building would be erected in 1941. This is 1945, and the Pearse Street building is to-day almost the same as it was 15 years ago. Not a new brick has been laid since then. In fact, the building has been deteriorating in the meantime.

The present Minister has been delightfully silent as to what the Post Office propose to do in the way of erecting a new central sorting and delivery office. I would like to ask him, because he cannot ride away from his responsibility in this matter, if any decision has been reached with regard to the disused distillery that has been masquerading as a central sorting and delivery office in Pearse Street? Has the Post Office secured the site on which they propose to build a new office? Have any plans been prepared for the erection of a new office? Have these plans been approved by the Board of Works, and has Finance sanction been secured for the erection of a new building? Has the Post Office got the consent of the Department of Industry and Commerce and Department of Supplies to proceed with this work under a post-war priority plan, and, if all these formalities have been completed, will the Minister now say when work on the erection of the new building is likely to be provided? These are matters of very considerable importance to the staff to whom the Minister paid a tribute a short time ago. Many of them are much more interested to know what the Minister proposes to do in Pearse Street than in what he proposes to do elsewhere. I should be glad if the Minister would give us some definite evidence that the Post Office is alive to the necessity of providing suitable offices in Pearse Street, that it realises its responsibility in the matter and that the present Minister will try to put a face on the now rather reckless promise which was made by his predecessor, Deputy Boland, when he said that the new office would be erected in 1941.

That was before the war.

Were Fianna Fáil promises different before the war from what they were during the war?

You cannot overlook the war.

I should like to know what the policy of the Post Office is in respect of the erection of telephone kiosks in small towns. In a number of those small towns, the post office service is not available after 8, 9, or 10 o'clock. Again, in many of those small towns, there are no kiosks. In some of these small towns and large villages, there are no Gárda barracks, with the result that, if a person requires to make an urgent telephone call, he must go to a private house and ask leave to use the 'phone. It is not right, when we have a national telephone service, that that service should not be available in cases of urgency. Take the case of Leixlip, eight miles from the city. There are no Gárda barracks there and there is no telephone kiosk there. I think that the post office service there closes about 8 o'clock. If you want an urgent telephone call after 8 o'clock, you must go to one of the few subscribers in the town and ask permission to use his telephone. I realise that there may be difficulty, in present circumstances, in getting the type of coin-box which is used in telephone kiosks. That may explain why such kiosks are not generally available in small towns and large villages, but I should like to ascertain from the Minister the policy of the Post Office so far as the extension of the kiosk service is concerned. Would the Post Office be prepared, in cases such as I have mentioned, to meet the public demand by installing kiosks in view of the exceptional circumstances? I have no doubt that there are many similar cases.

There is another matter to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention in the hope of inducing him to move with much more alacrity than he has moved during the past few years. A few years ago, the urban area of Howth was absorbed, for administrative purposes, into the City of Dublin and became as much a part of the city as Rathgar, Fairview, Whitehall or Phibsboro'. As a matter of fact, the citizens of Howth elect members to Dublin Corporation. When Howth existed as a separate urban area, the staff at the Howth office were paid on the basis of an office located in a small urban area. Howth was brought into the City of Dublin for municipal purposes a few years ago and is now subject to Dublin rates and Dublin administration. Because of that, the staff ought to be paid on the same basis as the staff employed within the jurisdiction of the Dublin Corporation.

A case was made to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that Howth, which was a thriving urban area and had characteristics resembling the suburban characteristics of Rathmines, Ballsbridge and Rathfarnham, should be recognised as part of the City of Dublin and that the staff should be paid on the same basis as the staff in other offices in Dublin. It was pointed out to the Minister that the moment Howth was incorporated in the Dublin area, the Department of Local Government, which used to pay widows and orphans non-contributory pensions on the scale appropriate to Howth when it was an independent urban area— that is to say, on the Class III scale— issued instructions that, in future, widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions should be paid on the same scale as in the City of Dublin. In other words, the Department of Local Government recognised that the whole character of Howth had been changed when the district was brought within the jurisdiction of the City of Dublin. Consequently, persons in receipt of widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions in that area had their pensions stepped up from Class III to Class I. The Department of Industry and Commerce, which administers unemployment assistance, makes these payments on the basis of a certain scale for Dublin and the county boroughs, on another scale for areas with a population of 7,000, and on a third scale for areas with a population less than 7,000. That Department also recongnised that the characteristics of Howth had undergone a change and stepped up the scale of unemployment benefit from Class III to Class I. Dublin Corporation, when Howth was amalgamated with the City of Dublin, imposed an urban rate in the Howth area and, in respect of new lettings of cottages handed over to them, charged as if Howth were, in fact, portion of the City of Dublin. We heard the Minister for Local Government saying in this House that the Corporation had rightly levied rates on the Howth area in the same way as rates were levied on other portions of the city. Notwithstanding that all this evidence has been submitted to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, notwithstanding that it has been shown that other Government Departments have been recognising the change in the characteristics of Howth because of its incorporation in the city, notwithstanding that he has been urged for almost two years to recognise what other Government Departments have already recognised, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has maintained for some time a stony silence.

The Minister must recognise that the merits of the claim for raising the scale of wages in Howth area, and in any other areas which may be brought within the ambit of Dublin Corporation, are unchallengeable. So far, the Minister has not indicated what he intends to do in the matter. I put it to him that he cannot abstain any longer, in equity, from recognition of the claim that the staff at Howth should be paid at the same rate as the staff at Rathgar, Phibsboro', James' Street and other portions of the city. I hope the Minister will tell us that he will put an end to that long-continued injustice and pay the proper rates of wages to those employed in the Howth area.

Another matter which has been the subject of representations to the Minister for close on two years is the question of recognising the claims of temporary officers to some pay when they are, unfortunately, stricken with illness and unable to attend for duty. The House may be interested to know that there are full-time temporary officers with a service of up to 15 and 17 years. Yet, notwithstanding the fact that they may have served 15 or 17 years, if they are out stick for a single day, the Post Office does not pay one farthing for that day, in spite of the long service they have given. Representations have been made to the Minister in respect of these employees. It has been pointed out that in other Government Departments a certain scale of sick pay is allowed for a period in the case of person who have a certain minimum service. The Minister has been urged to apply to the temporary staff in the Post Office the same conditions as are operative in respect of other Government Departments. I think the Minister now recognises the merits of the case which has been submitted and there are some indications that the Department is prepared to concede the claim but so far there has been no crystallisation of the extent to which the Department has agreed to meet the precise claim which was submitted. I should like, therefore, if the Minister could on this occasion indicate what exactly the Post Office intend to do in the matter and what is the precise nature of the sick pay regulations which in future will apply to temporary officers of all grades.

The Minister told us that the Post Office last year yielded the staggering surplus of £147,000. Approximately £250,000 of a surplus was yielded on the telephone service. One could in normal circumstances afford to take pride in an achievement of that kind if one felt satisfied that those who toiled in a Department of that kind were well paid but, of course, that is not the position. While the Minister tells the House of the fact that the Post Office telephone service is yielding a surplus of approximately £250,000 per annum, the Minister must know that he is responsible for the employment in the telephone service of people under the most appallingly bad conditions. There is quite a considerable number of persons who are known as temporary night telephonists. There is another class known as part-time temporary night telephonists. These part-time night telephonists are employed for a period of three hours at night, from 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. They are paid notoriously low wages, so low, in fact, that the Post Office cannot keep them in employment because, when those folk are recruited from the employment exchange and when they learn the wages, and experience the conditions under which they have to work, the boys take themselves away and say: "I would not work under those conditions. I would not work for those rates of pay."

In answer to a question here, the Minister recently told me that 14 of these part-time telephonists who had been trained, after being trained decided they would leave because they were not prepared to continue to work for such rates of pay. I put it to the Minister that it is a most unsatisfactory condition of affairs to have the chief telephone exchange of the country staffed on the basis of employing persons from 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. at wretchedly low rates of wages whilst employed for that period. The Minister, surely, should be able to organise his telephone staff on the basis of providing full-time employment for these people. It seems to me nothing short of an outrage that the Minister should be talking of a surplus of £247,000 on the telephone service while persons are being employed in that service for as short a period as 18 hours a week. Many of these workers have no other employment whatever. To employ people for 18 hours a week with the pittance which they get for this work, a pittance which is not even sufficient to induce them to remain any length of time at the work, whilst talking about a surplus of approximately £250,000 seems to me rather strange and ironic.

At one time, of course, the Post Office used to tell us that the whole postal system would collapse unless the service was saturated with part-time labour. By dint of constant effort over a long period of years, it was demonstrated that part-time labour in Dublin could be abolished. As a result of constant pressure by the staff organisation, approximately 150 part-time duties were abolished, and now there is no part-time employment on the postal side in the City of Dublin. If at one time you went to the Post Office and said that part-time duty should be abolished, the authorities would hold up their hands in holy horror and say the thing simply could not be done. But it was done, and the Post Office has continued to make a greater profit every day since, while the service has not been impaired in the sightest.

If it was possible to do that in respect of 150 duties on the postal side, by the conversion of these duties to full-time duties, surely it should be possible to apply a similar remedy in respect of part-time duties in the telephone section, and abolish the present system by providing full-time employment in the telephone exchange. As a matter of fact, those who know the inside story are aware that conditions in the telephone exchange are very far from satisfactory. Many of these people who are employed to work from 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. are beseeched to come in at 7 o'clock because the place is in a jam and in a panic. Again, when they are about to leave at 11 o'clock, they are beseeched to remain on until 12 o'clock. Not only that; they are entitled to one rest night in the week, but they are asked to come in on that rest night, and told that the office cannot be properly staffed unless they come in.

Did anybody ever hear of worse huckstering with a national telephone service than that? People who are supposed to be employed from 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. are asked to come in at 7 o'clock to get the service out of a jam, and again when the lads are leaving at about 11 o'clock, they are asked to stop on until midnight. They are even asked to sacrifice their rest night in order to keep things going. The Post Office is sufficiently insolent to ask for an explanation as to why they will not come in on a rest night. One would think that these employees were getting a retaining fee of £1,000 a year instead of being paid the miserable sum which the Post Office gives them for 18 hours a week. I put it to the Minister that this is a disgraceful method of administering a national telephone service, huckstering with staff hours in this way, paying low rates of wages, and keeping the service perpetually in a panic, with the question eternally cropping up: "What will to-night be like if so-and-so does not come in at 7 o'clock, or if he is not prepared to remain on until 12 o'clock to-night?"

It is not a very big problem, but it is a vicious problem so far as those who are its victims are concerned. It is a problem easily capable of solution. With a surplus of £247,000 on the telephone service, the Minister ought to recognise that the evil of part-time employment in the telephone service should be brought to an end and that the persons concerned should be paid a decent wage on a full-time basis, the part-time duty being extended so as to create full-time duties in the interest of those who are employed on those duties and in the interest of providing a better and more efficient service for the community.

In March last I raised on a Supplementary Estimate in this House the question of providing pensions for auxiliary postmen and the Minister then sought refuge in a statement that this was a problem that affected other Departments and could only be considered in conjuction with other Departments. I say to the Minister this does not affect other Departments in the same way as it affects the Post Office Department. There are approximately 2,600 auxiliary postmen in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. A large number of these officers give service up to 40 years. Some of them give service even in excess of 40 years. When they go out at the end of 30, 40, or 50 years, as the case may be, they may get a grant from a fund known as the Minister's Special Fund. If they happen to have a son or daughter working and living with them they get no grant whatever. If they happen in these days to have a son or daughter in England sending home money then, the Post Office says, notwithstanding a man's 40 or 50 years' service: "You will get nothing in respect of that service because John Bull is paying your son or daughter and your son or daughter is sending money back to you".

I think Pharaoh was tender-hearted, compared to those who could adopte that stony-hearted attitude towards those who had served them for 40 or 50 years. If the Minister was an employer, and if a man who had served him for 40 or 50 years was leaving, I wonder would he just shake hands with him and say: "Now, Pat, thank you very much. You have a daughter at home and a son earning in England and I cannot see my way to give you anything." That would be all against the laws of justice and an infraction of the Constitution. I am sure that the Minister would not do anything like that. But that is what the Post Office Department is doing to people who were employed in it for 40 or 50 years. In many cases they are given no gratuity, and no recognition for the long service given to the community, and to the State as distinct from the community. It is true that some in very needy circumstances may get grants from the Minister's Special Fund. The grants are trival, when you think of the services rendered by auxiliary postmen, particularly those working in exposed coastal areas for periods of 40 or 50 years. Many of these men work from 30 to 33 hours weekly. If we take 33 hours as an example, and the normal attendance for a full-time established postman as 44 hours, many of those who work for 33 hours are doing what is three-fourths of a full week's work. Although they serve for three-fourths of a week they get no recognition whatever for that service. If they were established officers, working 44 hours weekly, they would have to get recognition under the superannuation code, but not being established full-time officers they get nothing as a matter of right, and as a return for their services, even though they worked three-fourths of a week for 40 or 50 years. I put it to the Minister that he cannot possibly justify that kind of almost inhuman treatment of a large section of people who serve the community in such circumstances as to draw praise from the Minister and from Deputies. The common answer of the Minister is that there are people in other Departments similarly affected. The hard core is in the Post Office Department. The real grievance exists in there because people employed there have rates of wages less than those operative in other Departments. In this case the Minister has a moral responsibility of which he cannot divest himself merely by saying that there are other people like them employed elsewhere.

On the last occasion I raised this question I endeavoured to enlist the Minister's sympathy. The Minister was then oozing sympathy. I put it to him now that whatever sympathy he may or may not have, he has a moral responsibility, and that in conscience, as the ultimate employer, he is bound to take some steps as a member of the Government to try to remedy the situation. The Minister has all the powers of an individual Minister to raise this matter. He has as much power as any Minister to initiate correspondence with the Minister for Finance calling attention to the existence of this problem. I put it to the Minister now, knowing that he has a moral responsibility, that he should initiate proposals to remedy it. If the Minister, during his period of office, has not displayed any sympathy towards claims presented to him on a number of occasions, now that the war situation cannot be used as an excuse for postponing consideration of them, I hope he will be able to announce in the House this evening that he is impressed with the claims of these people for a pension on retirement, and that he will undertake to have it sympathetically examined so as to remedy what has been too long a scandal to the whole administration of the Post Office.

The Minister indicated that there has been an enormous increase in the telephone service. That is to be expected, because that service will eventually supersede the telegraph and, to some extent, the letter services. We were promised an improvement in the trunk service when new equipment was provided. There was a substantial improvement for a while, but I think it has lapsed again, because my experience has been that there was unreasonable delay in trunk calls. Possibly the Minister will look into that matter. I want to ascertain what steps are being taken to provide a really efficient telephone service for the agricultural community in rural Ireland. Are any plans being developed to provide such a service at a reasonable charge? There has been a good deal of talk about agricultural development here, and about competition with other countries. In respect to this service other countries have advantages that our people have not. The telephone service throughout rural Ireland would make for expedition in agricultural affairs.

We can appreciate what a tremendous advantage it would be to people living in remote districts if they could ring up neighbours when they required the use of a machine or wished to have a conversation. I hope the Minister will be able to tell the House that the question of extension is under consideration. I do not know whether the Electricity Supply Board poles that will be used for rural electrification could carry telephone wires. The whole problem is a very big one and is well worth going into to see if such a service could be provided at a reasonable charge. So far as telegraphs is concerned, it is a dying service and, as it is continuing to shrink, the Minister should consider the question of the charges for telegraph delivery in rural areas. This matter is raised every year. The charges are excessive and, at certain times, they constitute a hardship. In the case of a death in a poor family, if a number of telegrams expressing sympathy arrive, to charges for delivery constitute a hardship. This service is a State service; it is not conducted by a private institution; and the people living in remote districts are entitled to equal consideration with the people living in more densely populated districts. That applies also to the two-day delivery postal service. The delivery generally in rural areas is slow. I do not wish to stress that point because I appreciate the difficulties, such as lack of transport. It is often difficult for business people to post early in small towns. Their customers may not place their orders in time for early posting. The matter is not a simple one. I merely want to say that I hope the Minister will continue to give every possible attention to that particular problem, and that he will secure more expeditious delivery. There is a fairly substantial increase in the Estimate for road services—£2,500. Whether that is due to a further deterioration of the rail services or to an effort to improve existing services, I do not know. I would hardly expect that the position has further deteriorated in the last 12 months. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us that something definite is being done in planning for what is going to be the premier service in the near future.

I wish to draw the Minister's attention to the dissatisfaction that exists in the Dun Laoghaire area in connection with labour employed in the Dun Laoghaire section. Last January established men received an increase of 10/- a week, cost-of-living bonus, while some other men got only 1/- a week increase. These men feel they have a great grievance. The Minister must be aware that there is dissatisfaction in that particular branch. While he has not given the increase to these men, he has reduced the Estimate this year by £7,000.

In the rural areas the linesmen have a very large area to cover, very often in inclement weather. I recommend that these men be supplied either with a small car or a motor cycle. They may have to cover 15 to 20 miles, and it is difficult to do that with a push-bicycle. The Minister, I think, would find that the provision of a car or motor cycle would be economic because if he examines the records I think he will see that it is costing the State much more in sick pay than it would cost to provide proper facilities for the work.

I do not want to repeat what has been said in other years about the small wages paid to the auxiliary postmen. That has been raised year after year and, no matter what appeal is made, there seems to be no change in the Government's outlook in that respect. I think it is in the Minister's power to reconsider the wages being paid in the Dun Laoghaire area. If it is in his power, I would appeal to him to take courage in his hands and to fight the Department of Finance in that matter and not to have every Minister subject to the Department of Finance. The Minister is in charge of the Department and he should realise that it is in his interests that there should be satisfaction and contentment, in the whole service. If he wants to secure satisfaction and contentment, he can do so by obtaining justice for these men.

Ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh do sheirbhís telegrafa do na hoileáin ar an gcósta thiar. Roimhe seo bhíodh an tseirbhís telegrafa sin ar cábla, ach ó briseadh na cáblaí is amhlaidh a rinneadar an tseirbhís neamh-shreangach a chur ar bun, agus níl sé sásúil. Bíonn na daoine ag clamhsán. Bhí, agus tá, sé cruaidh agus deacair é oibriú i gceart mar tá uaireanta áirithe go gcaithfidh siad a bheith san áirdeal agus ag fanacht ag gach stáisiún. Cuir i gcás, má tá Árainn ag iarraidh scéal a chur go Gaillimh agus nach bhfuil na cloganna ag réitiú le céile nó béidir go gcuireann rud éigin isteach ar dhuine de na hoifigigh, caithfear fanacht uair a chloig eile. Bheadh uair a chloig caillte agus ar an gcaoi sin ní oibríonn sé go ró-mhaith. Tá daoine eile ag clamhsán, go mór mhór an dream a bhfuil gléasanna éisteachta acu. Cuireann sé isteach orthu. Níl mé fhéin ag tabhairt móran áird air sin. Is iad na daoine a bhfuil mé ag tabhairt áird orthu, muintir oileáin Árainn agus Inis Bó Finne agus Oileán Chláir. Nílim ag iarraidh aon cheo ar an Aire anois. Tá a fhios agam nach féidir leis an cheist seo a cheartú fá láthair mar níl an long-chábla le fáil agus ní raibh sé le fáil le tamall maith. Iarraim air, ar son na ndaoine sin, nuair bheas an long-chábla ar fáil arís, go dtiúraidh an Roinn áird ar an gceist seo. Ba mhaith liom dá n-aibreodh sé cé an caingean atá aige faoin gceist. An bhfuil sé de rún aige deis neamh-shreangach a choinneáil ar siúl nó an bhfuil sé de chaingean aige na cáblaí a ligin síos arís? Moláim fhéin na cáblaí a chur ann arís mar is iad is freagraithe ann.

There are some items to which I wish to draw the Minister's attention. In the first place, can he indicate to the House any hope of a reduction in the rentals on telephones? I know the Minister would like to see telephones multiplied possibly by ten or 12, but I am aware of the fact that materials are scarce and, when available, are rather expensive. I can appreciate the difficulties which attend the whole question, but, now that the war is over and that materials may become plentiful and perhaps cheaper, I was wondering if the Minister would consider the question of reducing those rentals, and reducing the charges of the telephone service generally. At the moment they are prohibitive.

There is just one other matter to which I want to refer. The staff of the Cork Post Office—a more courteous lot of officials it would be difficult to find; that is my experience and the common experience of every user of the Post Office service from day to day —are at times considerably overworked. There are rush hours, the periods when pensions are being paid out and so on, when the officials are run off their feet. Some arrangement should be made whereby the ordinary citizen who just wants to buy a half dozen 2½d. stamps can be catered for. They have not quite got into the queuing-up system at those counters, and sometimes considerable delay is caused to business people and other users of that very central Post Office. Of course, there are delays in the smaller offices, too, but they are infinitesimal compared with those in the General Post Office in Cork City. There are occasions during the week when the staff is quite sufficient, but they are definitely overworked during the periods I have mentioned, and I would ask the Minister to see if something could be done to ease that position.

I should just like briefly to add my voice to the plea made here this evening in regard to one class of employee in this Department, the auxiliary postmen. In recent times particularly, attention has been called to a number of cases which could only be described as a disgrace even to any private employer. I brought to the notice of the Department recently the case of a man with 46 years' service, who had never been away from his employment through illness or anything else. He has given 46 years' faithful service, but now, owing to rheumatism contracted through wettings in the course of his employment, he will be unable to carry on his duties much longer. As has been pointed out by previous speakers, if that man had given 46 years' service to the meanest private employer he would get some material recognition in his old age. I want to ask the Minister to see that this matter will be considered. Everybody in the rural areas knows how faithful those auxiliary postmen are in carrying out their duties. In many cases they have to walk through boreens over which nobody but themselves and the dwellers in the house at the other end ever travel. In view of their whole conditions of service, I think the least they might get at the end of 46 years is some material recognition which would keep them out of the county home.

I should also like briefly to refer to the position in recent times in the General Post Office in Kilkenny City. The Minister knows that many complaints have been made, both in this House and outside it, in regard to this matter. Due to the expansion of social services, the payment of children's allowances and so on, the premises in the City of Kilkenny known as the General Post Office would not do credit to a town with one-third of Kilkenny City's population. I sincerely hope that the Minister will get the experts of his Department to examine that premises to see in what way the structure could be rearranged in order to give greater space and facility to the public. I believe that the premises could be very much improved if the matter were looked into by the competent people in the Minister's Department.

Another matter which I mentioned to the former Secretary to the Minister's Department some short time ago was the manner in which the mail car work is carried out in the City of Kilkenny. Up to the petrol shortage, we had petrol-driven vans, but for some years past an open dray has been used, and many people have complained to me that postal parcels are saturated with rain when they receive them. If that kind of car is to be used, there ought to be proper protection for the parcels. Another subject of complaint is that this type of vehicle is unsuitable for the proper transit of such things as egg boxes and so on. At this stage, it might be possible for the Minister to restore the motor vans.

In conclusion, I sincerely hope that this will be the last year that members of this House will have to appeal to the Minister for some Christian consideration for auxiliary postmen on retirement.

I have mentioned here on previous Estimate debates a matter very similar to that raised by Deputy Anthony to-night, except that my complaint relates to the City of Dublin while his relates to the City of Cork. Anyone who has experience of providing staff for retail trade knows the difficulty of maintaining a staff adequate to deal with the rush hours. If one keeps on duty all the time a staff sufficient to deal with the rush hours, one has a redundant staff for probably three-fourths of the day. Nevertheless, the Post Office is a public service, and I can assure the Minister, speaking as a businessman, that if I ignominiously failed to provide a staff adequate to deal with the business transacted in my shop on a market day in Ballaghaderreen I would very quickly lose my custom on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. I have got to maintain such a staff as will obviate the necessity of my customers queuing-up on the market day, which is Friday, for the very excellent reason that my customers would not queue up; they would go and deal in another shop.

If you have a Government monopoly, which is a public service, it is true that that kind of pressure cannot be brought upon it, because there is nowhere else you can buy stamps, but that puts a peculiar obligation upon a Government Department to see that they will, from a sense of duty, provide the same standard of service that they would provide were competition the spur, and the Minister has grave grounds for apology if he is obliged to come before this House and say: "During rush hours in the General Post Office I know that my employees are overworked, and I know that, overworked though they are, the public is not getting satisfactory service." If this is to be the permanent attitude of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, it means, first, that they are bad employers, and secondly, that they are incompetent business people, and that is an indictment to which they should not leave themselves open.

I know all the stock answers the Minister is going to make—that if he has enough staff there all the time to deal with the few rush hours, he will have a redundant staff in the meantime. Let him go down to any country shopkeeper in Ireland, and he will tell him how to deal with that problem. Let him go to Clery's to Todd's, to Arnott's, to Switzer's, or to Brown Thomas's, and ask them what they do on sale days.

He will find that they have a reserve of assistants on their permanent staff which they can switch to the counter to serve the public coming in or else they go out and hire a temporary staff. Let the Minister make up his mind that, if the counter staff in the Post Office cannot be maintained at a sufficiently high level to provide for the rush hours, a system of subsidiary pay will be provided for officers working in other parts of the building to compensate them for coming down and assisting the counter staff to meet the rush hour demand. That is only one of many possible solutions. Ministers are continually saying that there is no use in finding fault if you do not propose a remedy. There is a remedy. There are about 600 employees in the post office building. Let the Minister bring down the clerks, the typists and the runners from upstairs——

Or the Minister himself.

Or the Minister himself —to wait on the public. I was at a picture showing the late President Wilson, Lord have mercy on his soul, during the last war when he was at a railway station serving out refreshments to the soldiers going to the war. If the President of the United States can put an apron round his middle to wait on soldiers going to the war, the Minister or his subordinates might roll up their sleeves to wait on the public, if the necessity for it exists.

Or put on a Post Office uniform.

That is a dignified costume that any man might be proud to wear. Seriously, if there are employees of the Department in the building they ought not be above coming down and waiting on those who employ them, namely, the public. If there are people working in the building, they ought not to be above coming down and lending a hand to their fellow-workers, if the burden of work becomes unduly heavy at any particular part of the day. Now I want to refer to an incident relating to the Kerry Gaeltacht. I am not going to be more particular in locating the incident than to refer to the Kerry Gaeltacht. I say that the Department has a very special responsibility to ensure that every servant of theirs in the Gaeltacht is able to transact his business, be it humble or exalted, through the medium of the people's vernacular, just as people have that obligation in regard to their employees in Dublin, or in Cork, or in Monaghan. The vernacular of the people in the Kerry Gaeltacht is Irish. Therefore, I say that every employee in the Post Office working in the Kerry Gaeltacht should be able to transact all his business through the medium of Irish.

I know of a case where there was a temporary postman working in the Kerry Gaeltacht filling the place of a permanent postman until such time as a permanent appointment was made. As some Deputies will understand, these temporary appointments often last for years, and this man was running the post in this particular area for a long time. He spoke Irish before he ever learned English. Irish was his vernacular; English was to him a foreign tongue. Like many another man in the country, he was handier with the spade than with the pen; but he was able to transact the business of the post in Irish, to read the addresses and to deliver the letters correctly, and no fault was ever found with his execution of his duty. In due course the Post Office proceeded to fill the permanent post and, amongst other candidates who presented themselves, was the temporary postman. There were also some learned men who had drawn their learning from the volumes of O'Growney, and after the academic test imposed on the candidates, one of the learned men got the post and the temporary postman found himself out of a job.

My information is that the gentleman who got the job is not able to talk to the people in Irish. His vernacular is English, and if anyone asks him what time it is or engages him in any casual conversation he is not able to reply. If they ask him to run on a message for them, he is not able to execute their commands unless their commands are addressed to him in the English language.

Now I suppose that any system of a rigid kind may slip up occasionally. I do not want to dragoon the Department or suggest that they are inimical to the Irish language; I know they are not. But they will want to be very careful to ensure that an employee chosen for work in the Gaeltacht is furnished with something more than an academic knowledge of the language; their primary solicitude should be to see that he has Gaeilge as an gcliabhán. That, I know, can only be satisfactorily ascertained by an oral test and interview. I appreciate that the Post Office may feel that giving primary importance to an oral interview might create a situation in which a less equipped person would get the job in preference to somebody who is better equipped but who was, in some way or another, not as fluent at an interview as the successful candidate. Such precautions as are feasible should be taken to allay any apprehension on that score, but the prime purpose to be kept in mind is that a sub-postmaster or a postmaster or any other employee of the Department in the Gaeltacht should be able to transact his business through the people's vernacular, just as similar employees in the Galltacht should be equipped to use the vernacular of the people living there.

I suspect the Minister knows the case to which I am referring but, if any ambiguity remains in his mind, I shall be pleased to furnish him in private with the specific instance, thus avoiding the undesirable practice of referring to an individual in the House.

Several Deputies have spoken about temporary postmen. There is not the slightest doubt that the position of temporary postmen in this country is very anachronistic. I should like some Deputies who are pressing on the Minister all the things that I would like to press on him to tell me how we are to get out of the difficulty of establishing the temporary postmen. I think I am right in saying that if a postman is put on the establishment the Department is entitled to move him anywhere within the postal service. Is not that so?

Of course, a great many temporary postmen in this country do not want to take employment which makes them liable to be transferred 15, 20 or 40 miles from their homes. On the other hand, it does not seem to be a very practical proposition to appoint a civil servant on the basis that he is entitled to tell his employers where he is prepared to work in the service. If he becomes a full-time servant of the State, presumably he ought to work where the State wants him to work Deputy Norton is familiar with the problem from the point of view of the temporary postmen; we all are, because the temporary postman is the neighbour and the familiar friend of most of us.

I have had exactly the same dilemma put to me with regard to a district court clerk. A number of these are not established civil servants and are anxious to be established. The Minister for Justice is quite prepared to establish them if they will accept the conditions of establishment. Their reply is: "We do not want to be shifted to the other end of the country, because we have a number of other little jobs which, taken together with the district court clerk's salary, make a decent income. If we move to another part of the country we will lose all our ancillary jobs and find it hard to live on the district court clerk's salary alone." Therefore, I find myself in a dilemma. Am I to say to the Minister for Justice: "You must establish this man and give him a guarantee that he is to go on working in this area whether you want him to or not"? I think it is true of most temporary postmen that they do not live on their wages. They have other little employments of one kind or another in a particular district, and it would not suit them to be transferred to the other end of the country. Is it practical then to establish a man as a permanent full-time civil servant and at the same time guarantee that, unless he is willing to be transferred, he will not be transferred? I may be wrong, but it does not seem practicable to me. If anyone can suggest a remedy for that, I would be very glad to hear of it.

However, I do not think that that places any block in the way of the matter raised by Deputy Pattison. All the local authorities have temporary and established servants. The established servants are entitled to pensions on a scale; the unestablished servants are entitled to a gratuity when they retire. I do not think the Minister will challenge what I understood Deputy Pattison asked for, and that was that if an unestablished postman has served 20 or 30 years, at the end of his time he should get a gratuity, if not a pension, of a reasonable sum. I believe that is a proposal which most members of the House will feel is equitable, and about which I do not see any real practical difficulty arising. I commend the proposal that some recognition of these men's service should be given to them, particularly where they have been in the service of he Post Office as temporary workers or a protracted period.

Talking of that draws me to the sub-post offices. The theory with regard to sub-post offices is that if some old lady in the country gets a sub-post office, she ought to keep a shop, and between the two she would have a airly good living, but none of them would be expected to live on the income from the sub-post office. I think that is a rotten system. There is a emptation to everybody employing labour in this country to try to get somebody who is living at home, or to try to get an old broken-down penioner and pay to that person less than just wage and keep the difference in ne's pocket. It is a thoroughly rotten principle. If you employ a person to do a particular job, you ought to pay that person; if you are not prepared to say such persons, then do not employ them at all.

If the people of Ballaghaderreen or Castleblayney or Glaslough want a sub-post office, then they ought to pay a postmistress or a postmaster to do the work in that office, but they have no right as a community to go to some poor woman or hard-pressed man and say: "Because we know you are prepared to take less than a living wage owing to your special circumstances, we will give you less than a living wage to do the particular job we want done". That is very undesirable and ought to be put an end to. If it is to be put an end to, the right way to do it is to review the whole system of operating post offices at the present time, because the existing system is putting a premium, from the Department's point of view, on multiplying the number of sub-post offices.

I have one case in mind—and again, I shall give the Minister the name in confidence if he asks me—of what is called a sub-post office, where one post-mistress has died of a stroke and the other post-mistress there will not die of a stroke because she is determined she will not so far exert herself as to incur a stroke. But she will give everybody else in the town a stroke, and the reason is that her remuneration is not sufficient to permit of her hiring the help she requires to operate the post office and, being a very sensible woman, she has no intention of killing herself on the job. The public have to take such service as the efforts she is prepared to expend will provide, and if they want any further service, they can go whistle for it so far as she is concerned because, sensibly enough, she says: "One pair of hands cannot do the work of four; I am paid so much and out of that I have to pay an assistant and what is left would not feed a sparrow and only I am very abstemious I might be dead to-to-morrow".

A woman in that position ought to be an established servant, running the post office in the ordinary way and let the public, if they are unable to get the service that they are entitled to expect, demand of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs the provision of additional employees and, if they can satisfy the Minister that the business is of sufficient volume to justify the employment of additional hands, he would have to send additional workers. But the neighbours in that town cannot go to that post-mistress, knowing the income she is getting from the Department, and ask her to hire extra help because we know that if she did the extra help would be "sweated" and she could not afford to pay an adequate wage; even if she paid them an inadequate wage, she would have little left for herself.

The Minister may say: "Are we then to close down the small post offices in outlying areas where it would be manifestly ridiculous to maintain a permanent employee?" I do not think that that obligation devolves upon the Minister at all. I think he will find that the bulk of the business transacted in these cross-road shops would be the sale of stamps and possibly postal orders and instead of appointing a post-master or a post-mistress for these areas I would farm out the right to sell stamps; I would appoint agents for the sale of stamps and, if the people want other post office facilities, let them travel to the neighbouring post office or, if they want a post office in a district which it would be manifestly uneconomic to maintain, let them by way of memorial to the Minister ask him to levy in their area the sum necessary to maintain the post office and provide it for them. I think in the vast majority of cases no such memorial would reach the Minister. If he provides facilities for the purchase of stamps and postal orders in these peculiarly remote areas, the people would be quite content to travel three or four miles to the nearest suboffice if they want any more elaborate conveniences from the Department.

I want to give the devil his due in regard to telephones in one sense, and then to give him his due in another sense on the same topic. A great deal of difficulty has been experienced by a number of people in getting telephones during the emergency. I have made representations to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in a very large number of cases where people have put forward special circumstances which would justify the installation of a telephone. The vast majority of those applications have been turned down, but I am constrained to say, although it may not please some of my constituents for whom I failed to get telephones, that I cannot deny that in every case where I felt the want was real and urgent the Post Office went to the most extreme lengths possible to get the equipment necessary to install the telephone and did, in fact, provide one.

In the vast majority of cases the want was acute, no doubt, but compared with the demands of more urgent services I was constrained to admit that the Post Office people were right in saying: "These other applicants will have to wait until the supply position becomes better. Bad as their wants may be more urgent wants remain unfilled." Therefore, I must acknowledge with appreciation the exertions that the telephone division of the Department has made, with a very limited quantity of equipment at its disposal, to meet every reasonably urgent requirement in regard to telephones.

On the other hand, I find the greatest fault in the Department is the deplorable trunk service. There is not the slightest doubt that, admitting all the difficulties with which they have to contend, resulting from the inadequate supply, there is something radically wrong with the personnel or the equipment dealing with trunk calls. Sometimes trunk calls can be had with reasonable expedition, but very frequently the delays are utterly unreasonable. From time to time, I have written to the Department, and I do not deny for a moment that, every time I addressed the Department, the specific complaint I made was exhaustively examined. In each case, I got a reply setting out the reason for the delay and, where necessary, saying that disciplinary steps had been taken to prevent a recurrence of the cause of the delay. On other occasions, it was said that the volume of traffic was such that the equipment could not carry it and the delay was unavoidable.

I do not believe that efficient steps are being taken to do all that might be done in order to get the trunk calls through as quickly as they should be got through, with the equipment that is available. Whether it is that the assistants are not sufficiently highly trained or whether it is that the equipment, such as it is, is not kept in adequate repair, I am not in a position to say; but a delay of 30 or 40 minutes on a call from Ballaghaderreen to Dublin is not looked upon as fantastic.

There are not sufficient positions to take the traffic.

Not sufficient lines?

Mr. Corish

Sometimes it takes two hours in Wexford.

The moment you say: "There are not sufficient positions to take the traffic," the Minister says: "Supplies! Give me the wire and I will provide the service."

That is right.

We must all admit the Minister's difficulties. I am going a little bit further. I am alleging that, with the supplies the Minister has, the trunk service is not getting that degree of supervision requisite to extract from it the best it is capable of yielding.

It could not get more. If you saw the inside of the exchange, you would know it could not get more.

If I saw the inside of the exchange in Dublin, I may say that that is true; but the Deputy had not the experience which was so eloquently described on one occasion by "Quidnune" in the Irish Times, of a trunk call from Tuam to Dublin, in the course of which the caller heard two railway porters discussing whether “that ould wagon had passed down the line or not” and, having successfully disposed of them, he heard a man asking “whether the greyhound had had pups yet” and, after that person, it seems that there was someone who wanted to know “if that was Mrs. Slattery”— and then he threw his hat at it.

That was interference on the line.

I do not see that it is reasonable that that kind of interference should take place, if the trunk line between two points in this country were efficiently and effectively staffed. We must remember that the strength of any line is its weakest link. You may have highly efficient staffs at both ends, but put an utterly untrained person at any two stages on the line and you may cause complete chaos in a system which, if left to the two ends, would work efficiently. I think it ought to be practicable to resolve a problem of that kind.

I know a case in the city last week— and here again the Minister can have the name privately, if he wishes to have it—where a telephone began to ring at, I think, 2 o'clock in the morning. It rang continuously until 3.30, when an irate householder hurried downstairs and took off the receiver in despair. An employee of the telephone service called at the house within an hour of being summoned the following morning. He carried out the most elaborate repairs and stepped on his bicycle, but he had not turned the corner when the telephone began to ring again, in a sibilant whisper. It rang all day until about 6 o'clock. Again, the Post Office was approached through another telephone and, promptly, an engineer was on the scene. This time he gutted the whole installation and left, with profound apologies for the trouble. The hiss of his bicycle tyre had not ceased when the telephone began to ring again.

Further representations were made and again—that is the disarming quality of the Post Office, that they never fail in courtesy or in consideration and, apparently, they never lose their temper—the men arrived, this time armed with a completely new instrument. They rooted out the whole installation and put in this new instrument. Night had not faded into dawn before the new instrument began to tinkle again. At ten o'clock this morning, there was a man out again, rooting most energetically, and the last report I had from the front, speaking on the telephone a quarter of an hour ago, was that everything was functioning normally, but the whole family were standing around agog, waiting to see if the instrument would begin whistling again. There seems to be some very big miscarriage of exertion in a case of that kind.

The Deputy will not fail to let us know to-morrow what happens.

What worries me is that I hate to seem to complain about men such as those who tried to carry out these repairs. In every case their attendance was prompt, in every case their zeal was admirable, in every case they were manifestly anxious to get the job done and to be obliging in every possible way. It then seems a poor thanks-offering for their admirable demeanour, to be making a complaint out of their failure to achieve their purpose. I think there is some kind of inefficiency, as in the case of the intermediate stations on the trunk line. It is not goodwill that is lacking, but the ability to give effect to the excellent intentions of what, in my experience, has proved to be a very well-intentioned Department.

The last point I would refer to is one which was made the subject of comment in more than one Report of the Committee of Public Accounts, that is, the disappearance of mail bags. I am not going to deal at length with that, as those who are interested can find it adequately reviewed in the evidence and report of the committee. However, I would ask the Minister, when dealing with the Vote in his reply, to tell us if the position in regard to mail bags is improving.

At one time, the losses were quite sensational, as the bags disappeared in thousands. I believe that a new system of accounting and checking was introduced subsequently, as a result of the comments made by the Committee of Public Accounts. The House should watch this matter with some vigilance, and the Minister may be in a position to reassure the House that articles as valuable as these and as difficult to replace are not disappearing on the scale they used to disappear.

I can assure the Deputy that that is so. I made inquiries recently, and the loss has decreased very considerably.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 17th May, 1945.
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