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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 13 Jul 1945

Vol. 97 No. 22

Emergency Powers (Continuance and Amendment) Bill, 1945: Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

On that question, I want to say that we have endeavoured to get clear what elements the Government think are in the present situation that impact either on the public safety, on public order or on the preservation of the State. So far as we can find out from the minds of the Government, there is no danger in any of these directions, except the danger that arises out of supplies and the provision of the things that are necessary for the maintenance of the lives of the people. That has cleared our minds a bit. I hope it will set the minds of a number of people outside at rest, too. While that is so, we still require very much more detail in regard to what the Government is doing in its general plans so as to reopen the normal economic and trade activities of our people, so that the shortages we are experiencing may gradually disappear, and that the exercise of emergency powers over the lives of our people may be completely dropped at the earliest possible opportunity.

This Bill gives the Government power to continue the Emergency Acts until September, 1946. We hope that, long before that date, the Government will be able to say that it has dropped all the powers except those that deal with production and with the distribution and supply of certain specific goods. I opposed the Bill on the Second Reading, and I am opposing it now because of the powers which the Government is talking to prohibit exit from the country.

I want to give my views on the Bill. The members of our Party felt that, when the war in Europe terminated, we would have been able to do without any of these powers, with the exception of those which are concerned with the control of essential supplies. Nevertheless, most of the powers are being retained. The Taoiseach's amendment, dealing with the departure of people out of the country, which has been very fully discussed, was one of the most contentious that came before the House. There has been a great difference of opinion on both sides of the House on this question of the control of persons leaving the country. Some of the Deputies on the Fianna Fáil Benches have spoken as if there was full employment for all the people within the State. That is not so. The amendment that I have referred to is now incorporated in the Bill. In view of that, I would ask the Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce to take into account the fact that vast numbers of our people are definitely without employment, and that they should, at the earliest opportunity, grant some relaxation, thereby allowing people out of the country who cannot find employment here, or for whom the Government has failed to find reasonable employment.

Those who have no employment are not being retained in the country.

That has not been my experience. Within the last 20 months or so more than 1,800 people asked me to intercede for them so that they might be able to get permission to go away. I could not possibly deal with all the applications I got, but I can say that vast numbers of those for whom I interceded have not been allowed to go.

What ages were they?

Very few were under 22. The vast majority were over 22.

That is strange.

I can give actual proof of that fact.

A turf worker will not be allowed to go away.

That is a different matter.

But what kind of turf work can a man do in the month of November?

The point is that arrangements are made for that.

If the Taoiseach inquires he will find what the position is.

In North and South Mayo I know, from the number of requests I have received to intercede with the Department of Industry and Commerce, that it would be safe to say that there are between 3,000 and 4,000 people who are anxious to leave. I have yet to meet the young man or woman who goes cheerfully to seek employment in England. Most of them would prefer to stay at home, and would stay at home even at a much lower wage than they can get in England. I quite realise that at present, while war conditions obtain, we would not be able to compete with England in the matter of wages. I do not ask for that, but I do ask that every reasonable effort should be made to provide employment here. If employment cannot be provided, 2/- or 3/- a week dole is not sufficient to meet the situation, and they should be allowed to leave the country. There are 1,200 people employed on turf production in Mayo. What is the use of keeping 3,000 or 4,000 at home when only 1,000 are required? According to the report of the county surveyor, a large number of the 1,200 are women.

I know that we must have turf and food. I am in favour of the Government providing turf and food by all means while the semblance of an emergency remains. We must all admit that a certain amount of emergency conditions still exists. I ask the Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce to give a chance to those who cannot find work here to go elsewhere, while they are young, to earn a little money. Most of the holdings in the West of Ireland are small. There may be three or four boys on a holding and they cannot all find employment locally. Why not give them a chance to go and save a few pounds to enable them to settle down later on in life? That is the argument I put up. We had speeches from the Fianna Fáil Deputies who should know better. We had city Deputies speaking of conditions in the country and it was obvious from their speeches that they do not know a thing about it. They were merely trying to pull wool over our eyes. Let them go to Mayo or anywhere on the western seaboard, and study the conditions, where the holdings are small and the families large.

All I ask of the Taoiseach is, in view of the fact that this Bill will become law in a very short time, to give more attention to the case of those people who cannot find work at home or for whom the Government cannot find work. By all means keep the number of turf workers and agricultural workers that you want at home, but let the unemployable surplus get a chance to earn a wage in a foreign country. None of them likes to go. It is the dearest wish of my heart to see the day when emigration will cease. I think the same applies to every Deputy, no matter what political affiliations he may have. Apparently we have not yet reached that position. Although we have had freedom for so long, it seems we cannot employ all our young men and women. Do not keep them at home if you cannot provide employment for them. Keep the number you want for turf and agricultural production, because we must have food and fuel, but do not keep four people at home for every job that is available.

I take it this is the Final Stage of the Bill?

I oppose the passage of this Bill because I cannot get from the Taoiseach, at any stage, a firm undertaking on which this Oireachtas can depend that on a given day he will abandon the emergency legislation and seek from Oireachtas Éireann such powers as the Executive of this country may properly ask for the purpose of maintaining order, the safety of the State and supply in normal times. What puzzles me about the Taoiseach is his manifest reluctance to trust the House. He seems to think that, were he to let go these emergency powers, he might find himself on the morrow faced with some new and unforeseen critical situation and denied the necessary power to deal with it. Why should he think that?

I do not think it.

When the emergency of war broke upon this country, the Taoiseach elected to maintain a Party Government.

The Government.

There is no need for the Taoiseach to get vexed. I am not trying to vex him at all. Let me try to recall to him things that should be a source of gratification to him and to me rather than things calculated to irritate him. In 1940, when France fell, the situation became infinitely more critical and the Taoiseach felt that, for certain Departments of Government, in any case, it was necessary to have something more than Government drawn from one Party—if that pleases the Taoiseach better—and he sent for the Opposition to ask them for their co-operation. Can he deny that in that situation we were able to sit down together and, in one half-hour, overcome a lot of delicate and difficult problems connected with the establishment of the Defence Conference?

It took longer than that.

I recollect an anxious evening in which, after Mr. Cosgrave and the Taoiseach had taken the decision to establish the Defence Conference, one of these tricky little questions arose.

That is not in the Bill and it is certainly not in order on the Fifth Stage. The Deputy can discuss only what is in the Bill on this stage.

I am only drawing the attention of the House to the fact that in a very critical situation the Taoiseach got friendly co-operation and help to meet an emergency. Why does he apprehend now that if another difficulty arose he could not depend on us to get the same thing?

That has all been accepted in the Bill. The Deputy must deal with the Bill now.

I am arguing against the passage of the Bill, because I do not think it is necessary, because I think the Taoiseach ought to know that, without retaining any of these emergency powers, if any unforeseen contingency arises, he could get help to meet that contingency, without hesitation. It might very well seem that our opposition to this Bill was irresponsible. It really is not. I think some of us gave clear evidence by our attitude on the Committee Stage that in regard to the matter of supplies we were very glad to leave with the Taoiseach powers which in themselves were obnoxious to us, but we felt— some of us at least—that if you had to choose between doing that and the black market, you hated the black market much more than the necessity of leaving these powers with the Taoiseach, and some of us took the view that we would give him these powers so long as he had the black market to grapple with.

To-day the front page of the Daily Sketch in London is plastered with a story that an illegal body in this country has sentenced the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice, the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence——

What has that to do with this Bill, Deputy?

——to death. I will tell you, Sir. You remember that the Taoiseach stated that one of the reasons why he wanted some of the powers in this Bill was to meet plotting that was taking place in this country.

I did not. We got rid of the powers.

I want to tell the Taoiseach that I do not believe that it is right or intelligent for people outside this country to attach the importance that the Daily Sketch is trying to attach outside Ireland to an incident.

To the Fifth Stage of this Bill?

I do not think that this Bill or powers of this kind are necessary to meet an incident of this kind. If people outside imagine that irresponsible threats against the lives of our Ministers or public servants are calculated to throw this Dáil into such a state of chaos as would induce them to suspend the Constitution in order to deal with threats of that character, they are making a very great mistake. The Parliament of this country 100 per cent. supports the Government in suppressing the attempt of any unauthorised power inside or outside this country to challenge the right of the legitimate Government of Ireland to govern the country in the name of our people.

We disagree with the Government in many matters; we are prepared to censure them vigorously in Dáil Eireann and outside it; but if anybody imagines that that attitude involves the support of any element in this country which would challenge the authority of the legitimate Government, they make a great mistake. If anybody outside this country imagines that Parliament in Ireland, acting through the elected Government, is not able to deal with any conspiracy that is set on foot by a small or large group, they are quite mistaken. We do not have, in this day and age in Ireland, to resort to emergency legislation or to violent methods to sustain ordered government against the attempt of an irresponsible few, or indeed of an irresponsible individual who may be concerned in this case and may address threatening letters to public figures in the country. It ought to be remembered that, although newspapers inside or outside this country may feature such things as being occasions of great drama, such letters are continually appearing in the police files of Great Britain, the United States of America and every civilised State in the world. Any lunatic can steal a sheet of notepaper from a Government Department and use it to write a threatening letter to one or more important figures in the community to which he belongs.

Therefore, I beg of the Taoiseach, even at this late stage, to do something which will secure for him the kind of co-operation which he got when we were putting the Defence Conference into operation, that is, to say now: "I will come back to this House on a given date and I will repeal all emergency legislation; and, at the same time, I will ask the House frankly for the specific powers which the Government requires and will advance my reasons to justify my request for each several power for which I ask." Should he do that, this House might, with a very much easier conscience, give him a prolongation of these powers which he now seeks to maintain, giving him six or even 12 months to examine the position and make up his mind as to what precise powers he may require for the future.

I do not think it is necessary to recall to the Taoiseach's mind that, for two years of which I had a knowledge, his Ministers and the Leaders of the Opposition were able to sit around a table and, in the Defence Conference, argue and discuss in the most intimate and frank way the gravest possible matters. I am speaking now of the years that I knew of; I do not know what happened after I left the Conference. I do not think in all that time there was a single breach of confidence in regard to the proceedings of that body, and I think his own Ministers are constrained to admit in this House that those members of that body who were most opposed to them were helpful and co-operated in whatever work they had to do. Why does the Taoiseach think, with that experience at his disposal, that in the future, if unforeseen difficulties arose, he would find himself obstructively harassed by the Parties of this House?

Surely, there was never a time when it was more incumbent on us to make clear to those inside and outside the country that, trenchant as our differences may be on almost everything, there is one common ground between us all, that is, that the legitimate Government of this country shall govern without interference from any other body whatsoever and that any person who calls that in question faces not only the Government but the whole Oireachtas of Ireland? How better could that be underlined and emphasised than by a declaration from the Taoiseach that he was resolved to put emergency powers out of existence and to trust to Dáil Éireann in future to give him the help in emergency that has been given him in the past?

Now, I do not think I have said anything designed to irritate the Taoiseach. I want to safeguard the reputation of my own country. I want to feel in my own country that I am a free man; I resent the feeling that the Government of this country can infringe my liberty and leave me without any remedy whatsoever to vindicate my rights under the Constitution against the Government. Is there anything wrong in that? I cannot help feeling that a great many members of the Fianna Fáil Party, having lived through six years of emergency under Emergency Powers Acts, have developed a kind of feeling that that ought to be the norm, that there is nothing queer about living in that way. I have never felt that and do not feel it now. I have always resented the necessity of living under powers of that kind. I have recognised that one had to bury one's resentment and endure the humiliation of submitting to tyrannical powers of that kind, because the alternative was to put the whole State in jeopardy to the armies of the Third Reich. Once the German menace has passed, I ask the Taoiseach to give me back the freedom I enjoyed before that menace manifested itself. The Taoiseach's reply is that he cannot do that, as some unforeseen crisis might come upon him, in which he would need to have recourse to these emergency powers again. Surely that is what the Taoiseach has said.

Now, he has said further: "I want time to examine the whole thing and ascertain what powers I may require permanently". Surely the test is whether the Taoiseach would say: "On this day six months I am going to abandon the emergency powers altogether and then going to ask Dáil Eireann for powers to deal with the emergencies of which I then have knowledge". But that involves the Taoiseach trusting Dáil Eireann that if some emergency arises which he has not foreseen, he will get from the Dáil the powers necessary to deal with it forthwith. I say to him that his past experience should teach him that he might safely depend on the Oireachtas to do so; and it is because he will not trust the Oireachtas to do so that he wants to hang on to all these powers until he is perfectly certain that he knows of every contingency which may arise. If he adheres to that view, he is going to hang on to the powers for ever, since no man can foresee the future with certainty.

There is the issue joined between us. I ask him to trust Oireachtas Eireann to give the legitimate Government of this country adequate powers to deal with any threat that may arise to the safety of the State, to the maintenance of public order or to the protection of the people; and the Taoiseach's reply is: "I cannot do that; I must retain all the powers and use them, if and when I think it necessary to do so". I beg of the Taoiseach to see where that is leading.

I ask the Taoiseach to think of himself as being on the Opposition side and, hearing the Leader of the Government, of which he was not a member, making that claim, what would he say to himself? Would he not say: "That means that he wants to keep these powers forever; that means that for ever more the Constitution of this country is in abeyance". And, remember, that so long as the Emergency Powers Act is in operation the Constitution is in virtual abeyance. I am asking the Taoiseach to bring the Constitution back into operation and give us back all our constitutional rights. I have not yet had from him any satisfactory explanation of why he will not.

This much is certain, if he adheres to the view that he will never surrender the Emergency Powers Acts until he has foreseen every contingency that can possibly arise, it means that we never will have the Constitution back; that we never will have the Emergency Powers Act code relinquished, and that the status of every citizen is altered, and altered in such a way as to leave the Irish people infinitely less liberty than they enjoyed under the bloodiest administration that Balfour ever sustained in this country. None of us complained of that while the World War was in progress, but it will be an enduring shame to this country if, when the crisis has passed, the shade of Balfour can say: "The worst that I dared to do in Ireland pales into insignificance beside what an Irish Government claims the right to do 50 years after I left the scene".

As I and the Party to which I belong opposed the amendment which the Taoiseach has embodied in the Bill, with the assistance of the majority in the House, I feel I could not let the Fifth Stage of this measure pass without making some comments. The Taoiseach seems to be completely unaware of the fact that there are considerable numbers of men and women, particularly men, who have sought facilities to leave this country in order to get work abroad, and have been refused. He seems to be absolutely unaware of that fact, but, if he is, I and others like me, who come from the West of Ireland, are not unaware of it. At a rough guess I can say that I have had 300 letters asking me to intercede with the Department of Industry and Commerce in order to help the writers to leave the country. Hundreds more have been turned away from my door and from the door of Deputy Blowick on the ground that nothing can be done for them.

The decision of the local Gárdaí counts for everything. Many of the Gárdaí are desirous to help, but they are afraid that if they do anything it will get them into trouble. Therefore, they are reluctant to define who is or is not an agricultural worker or a person experienced in turf production. There are many men in the West who are carpenters, joiners or engaged in other trades who have got offers of work abroad. They cannot get employment in this country. They have sought for facilities to leave the country, but they have been turned down merely because they have a knowledge of agricultural work and turf production. I am a joiner by trade, but I have a knowledge of agricultural work and of turf production. If I was anxious to get to England, if I was not a member of the Dáil and wanted to get employment in England, I would be stopped by the Gárdaí, who would tell me that I have experience of turf production. But I have never earned my living by producing turf, and that is the difficulty that many people experience. It is obvious that, with the Taoiseach's amendment embodied in the Bill, we will experience still more difficulties.

Not more, surely.

I suggest to the Taoiseach and the Department of Industry and Commerce that when we make representations to them we do so merely because we feel it is our duty and because we know that the men who desire to leave the country have good reasons for making their requests to get away. Their chief reason is their anxiety to maintain their offspring, their parents or other dependents. I have worked outside this country for a number of years. I did not do so in order to see London, or other big English cities. Once you have seen one you have seen the lot, because they are all alike. I remember coming home in April, 1942. I made every possible effort to get back the following September but I was not allowed to do so. I was told I could not go, although there was work waiting for me on the Clyde, in the shipyards of Glasgow, at £10 a week. It was my good or my bad fortune to have to remain here.

You have not to pay income-tax here, Deputy; you would have to pay it on the Clyde.

That is so; I have not. At any rate, I was not overanxious to engage in the manufacture of something designed for the destruction of the human race. I felt I should not go back there. If it was for the purpose of helping to build up British social standards, it would be different, but when it was for the purpose of constructing something intended for the destruction of the human race, I had the feeling I was as well off not to go back.

I listened to Deputy Dillon talking about the emergency powers and the dangers of these powers in relation to the Constitution. I understand that when certain men here are brought before the civil courts, especially in connection with political crimes, the jury are nervous about giving a decision and for that reason it is felt that it is necessary to have powers so that a jury can be dispensed with and the men can be tried in what is known as a military court.

These powers are not in this Bill as it stands.

Yes, they are; of course, they are.

I do not wish to deprive the Taoiseach or the Government of such powers, because they many have information which I do not possess, but I think the Government should endeavour to see that, when a man who is guilty of a political crime, large or small, is to be brought to trial, he should be tried in the civil court by a judge and jury.

I will again point out to the Deputy that these powers have been taken out of the Bill.

Only the Government say that. It has been argued by the ex-Attorney-General, by myself and others, that they still exist.

Those powers are not in the Bill as it is now being considered.

I deny that categorically. Surely, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is not going to take it upon himself to determine the validity of the arguments advanced on both sides of the House.

The Government should make every effort to have these men tried in the civil courts and, if it is found that the jury are threatened or blackmailed, then let there be a resort to the military courts. While, on the one hand they can retain the emergency powers, on the other, let them set an example by having these individuals tried in the ordinary civil courts, or the High Courts, before a judge and jury. The juries could be drawn from widely different areas—it is a pretty large country—and I cannot see how their identity could be established or how it could be ascertained where they come from.

I think we should make an effort to get away from the practice of mentioning what is known as I.R.A. and Republicans, who plead for the Republic which the Taoiseach and many more set out to achieve—but which has not yet been achieved—and that these people say they are the only persons capable of achieving, either by force or by other methods. If these men are not going to accept the ordinary decisions of the civil courts, and if they are going by blackmail and threats to prevent juries from coming to decisions, then come back to Parliament which can enable the military courts to be used. The first thing to be done is to give these people the privilege of trial in the ordinary civil courts.

The military courts have been got rid of.

They have, but you have power at any time to re-establish them. We have got no guarantee that they will not be re-established if crimes are committed.

What is the use of arguing about something that is away from the facts? What is meant by saying that we can give ourselves power again?

Of course you can.

Can you not re-establish these courts?

By what power?

By the powers you have.

Are we not depriving ourselves of that power in this Bill? The Deputy does not want to see that.

Where is it?

In the Bill.

The Deputy must deal with what is in the Bill.

The Deputy has not read the Bill. Apparently he is in the same position as Deputy Dillon.

I must ask the Deputy to sit down if he does not deal with the Bill.

Is the Taoiseach going to control the course of the debate? Are not Deputies entitled to maintain from their interpretation of the Bill as it at present stands that the Taoiseach has power to set up special courts before which he intends to have persons tried for black marketing or for other offences? Under what power does he bring persons before special courts to be tried for charging an extra shilling for tea.

If the Deputy is asking me a question, the answer is under the Offences against the State Act, not under this Bill.

By what power do you bring persons before the courts at Arbour Hill for black marketing?

Under the Offences against the State Act—not this Bill.

There is not power under this Bill?

After what the Taoiseach and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle have said I do not intend to refer further to that subject. I think it would be a wise and proper step to take if any crimes are committed in future which could be described as political crimes, that the culprits should be tried in the ordinary courts, until there is a genuine cause for going back to military courts. Until that is achieved I think there is a good case for the argument of these gentlemen, that they are not treated as citizens, or as if they were in an ordinary civilian community or democratic State. Because of that state of affairs, as Deputy Dillon stated, newspapers can try to create the impression amongst the people, and outside this State, that we are living in a country where there is turmoil and insecurity, and where ordinary citizens have no guarantee of security. It is for that reason that I have tried to make this point that we should make a start, now that hostilities have ceased in Europe, and turn over a new leaf, by trying to make men who commit crimes believe that we are prepared to give them all the facilities of the civil courts and of juries when defending themselves and declaring themselves to be innocent. It was stated by Deputies on the Government Benches that the amendment which has caused this controversy is an essential one. It may be essential with regard to providing the necessary supplies of fuel and food. As far as the fuel supply is concerned, if it has not been secured already, there will be a poor chance of getting it now, as the greater portion of the season for saving fuel is over.

It has been argued by some Deputies that our attitude in opposing the amendment is to create the impression outside this country that this Government or any future Government will not be able to bring about a situation in which the majority of our people will be able to make a living at home. No Deputy has greater experience of what it means to have to go outside to earn a living than I have had. As a boy I followed the early campaign of the Fianna Fáil Party. I followed the Taoiseach and gate crashed his meetings so that I should not miss any of his words. I thought when I would come of age that I would have security of employment in this State. When I came of age and had my time served I found that my only hope was to emigrate. I could not see any difference in that respect between the previous Administration and the present one. It was stated that the emigration from this country was a disgrace. Deputy Butler can make a speech which will appeal to the patriotic section of the community, and to every man who loves Ireland, but the purpose of such a speech is to cloud the real issue. No Deputy on the Opposition or on the Farmers' Benches wishes to discredit this country.

Will the Deputy now come to the Bill?

I am speaking to the amendment embodied in the Bill. The amendment would prevent Irishmen who wished to do so leaving Ireland. Deputies on the Government Benches tried to reflect on this Party by suggesting that we have taken this opportunity to try to make it appear that there is no hope for the future of this country. That is not our attitude. Our attitude and our principal object is to build up this country.

That does not arise on this Bill.

It does arise in this way, Sir, in my opinion, that if we oppose the amendment on the Fifth Stage as well as on the Second Stage, it is because of our opposition to that amendment in the Bill.

The Deputy cannot propose to oppose an amendment on the Fifth Stage.

We can oppose the whole Bill.

The Deputy, on the Fifth Stage, cannot specifically refer to an amendment which was either passed or not passed.

But can we oppose the whole Bill on the ground of that amendment?

On what is actually now in the Bill.

I am merely trying to give them a reason why I am going into the Lobby to oppose the Bill, and I am endeavouring to reply to those Deputies who, rightly or wrongly, have tried to make out that I and others who have spoken on this Bill have as our desire and intention to present this Bill to the people in this country and outside it as a Bill which shows this to be a country in which nothing exists but turmoil, unemployment, poverty and destitution.

The Deputy is now going back to the same point. He will have to deal with the Bill as it stands now. This is the Fifth Stage, not the Second Stage of the Bill, and the Deputy cannot go back on what other Deputies said in connection with the amendments.

Well, I shall conclude by saying that it is my opinion and belief that if we are to keep our people here at home, if we are to divest ourselves of the necessity for introducing legislation of the kind that is before the House now, it can only be done by a complete overhaul of the social system that exists here at the present moment. There is no other possible way in which we can achieve the ultimate desire which the people of this country possess. There is no other possible way in which we can achieve ultimate agreement, and there is no other possible way in which this country can be governed except by giving to the people security of employment and security of wage so that as they grow up they will be able to look to the future in this country with a certain guarantee that when they are able to take up employment it will be within the State, and not outside it. If they grow up along these lines, it will be good for the future and there will be no need of legislation of this kind to curtail emigration. That is a public admission by the Fianna Fáil Party and by the Taoiseach himself of his failure in the past 15 years.

I understood, and so did many others, that instead of having to introduce legislation to prevent our people from emigrating it might be necessary to introduce legislation to bring back to the country those who had emigrated, but I see now that, instead of there being an enticement or security which would induce people to come back, legislation has to be brought in to prevent our people from emigrating. There is no case to be made for such a thing. The case is being made now that legislation is necessary, and instead of bringing people back to the country they are preventing them from leaving. Now, there is no Irishman or Irishwoman, no matter from what part of the country they come, who is willing to leave this country, having regard to the state in which the world is at the moment and the state in which our nearest neighbour finds herself. Consequently, our people are not anxious to go, and the only reason they are leaving the country is that there is no security here and no employment, and because the social system under which we live is not a system which will give us in the future any more security than it has given us in the past.

(An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.)

The general social system, surely, is outside the scope of this Bill.

It is to a certain extent, but in so far as that amendment is concerned it does come into it on a board basis.

I understood that we were on the Fifth Stage of the Bill and not on an amendment.

Yes, the Fifth Stage, but I am opposing the Bill because that amendment is in it.

The amendment has already been dealt with and decided.

Yes, but I am opposing the Bill merely because there is in the Bill that amendment. That is my chief reason for opposing it, and I am trying to point out that it is not necessary and that the introduction of this is an admission by the Fianna Fáil Party of their failure to bring about social security.

Social security does not arise in it.

May I ask the Taoiseach a question? The Taoiseach said that he arraigned black market offenders before the special courts under the Offences Against the State Act, whereas, in fact, he arraigned them under Section 3 of the Emergency Powers Act, No. 16 of 1940. I know that the Taoiseach did not wish to mislead, and I should be glad if he would look at Section 3 of the Emergency Powers Act, No. 16 of 1940, and he will see that I am right.

No. 16 of 1940 is going, is it not?

Yes, I know, but I should like the Taoiseach to look at it.

If that section has gone, surely it does not arise on the Fifth Stage.

The Taoiseach is on record that No. 16 of 1940 was not invoked for that purpose, and I am asking did he wish to mislead the House?

I am not going to reply...

You said what was not right, and you ought to admit it.

This is an annual Bill, and the existing statute must expire in September next. Because of the fact that it will expire in September, and that the House is not likely to sit between this and next September, we are asked to pass it now without amendment. When it was introduced in September, 1939, it was to have an annual life and the House was to be given an opportunity of reviewing it every year and be given an opportunity of ascertaining the manner in which the Bill was utilised by the Government, and generally reviewing the Government's activities under the Act. If we pass this Bill to-day, the House will see the Bill again in September, 1946. In other words, in 1946, the Taoiseach, with his affection for the powers contained in this Bill, will come along here and ask the House to continue and amend the Bill unless, of course, in the meantime, he decides to shed the powers which are contained in this Bill. I put this suggestion to the Taoiseach—it is a double-barrelled suggestion—firstly, I think it is preferable, if this Bill is to be continued, that we should discuss it at some other time instead of at the end of a Parliamentary Session, when tempers are frayed and temperatures are high and when you do not get that calmness of discussion which is so desirable on a Bill of this character. I suggest, therefore, that the Taoiseach might utilise the Seanad to amend this Bill so as to provide that its normal life will terminate in March or April next, so that we can discuss the question of its continuance free from that feeling of hurry, haste and irritation which has been a feature of the discussion of the Bill this year and, so far as I recollect, other years as well. That is my first suggestion.

My second suggestion is that, in any event, we should get an earlier opportunity than we have previously had of reviewing the Government's activities under this Bill. In other words, we ought not to have to wait until September, 1946, before we are presented with a proposal for the continuance of this Act. The Taoiseach might consent to let us review the entire position in, say, March next, when we could see the changes which had taken place in world circumstances and the changes which had taken place in our internal position and arrive at a conclusion as to the powers with which it would be necessary to equip the Government to deal with such problems as required to be dealt with in the post-war period, and the powers which the Government should shed, having regard to the return of normal conditions. I hope that the Taoiseach will be able to tell us that he has no objection to providing us, by shortening the life of this Bill, with an opportunity of reviewing the whole position much earlier than would be the case ordinarily, if this Bill continues to be one of an annual character.

There is another matter on which I should like to get an indication of the mind of the Taoiseach and of the Government. I refer to the Government's wage policy in relation to this Bill. As the Taoiseach knows, this Bill is being utilised for the purpose of regulating wages and fixing wage ceilings. The Government say, in effect, to the workers: "No matter how the cost of living increases, you will get only the increase conditioned by the ceiling which has been fixed." The ceiling to-day is 11/- per week. In other words, no class of worker can receive an emergency bonus at a rate greater than 11/- per week. While the Government tell the workers, through the medium of this Emergency Powers Act, that the maximum increase they will be able to obtain is 11/-, on the other hand, they appear to be quite satisfied with a price policy which has permitted a price increase of not less than 71 per cent. While prices have risen by not less than 71 per cent., wages have risen by not more than 11/- or, approximately, 15 per cent. I should like to know whether the Government intends to perpetuate that lopsided conception of economics which compels people to pay prices greater by 71 per cent. than they were in 1939 out of a wage increase of, approximately, 15 per cent.

If the Taoiseach is fair in this discussion, he will have to acknowledge that the efforts of the Government to control prices were, in the main, a dismal failure. While the average increase in the cost of living is represented by the index figure as 71 per cent., if you were to go into a draper's shop to purchase certain goods, you would pay substantially more than 71 per cent. over the 1939 prices. The real increase in the cost of living is substantially greater than 71 per cent. While the Government have permitted prices to increase to that extent and have permitted those who manufacture and distribute on a large scale to get substantial rates of profit, on the other hand, they have been wickedly efficient in compelling workers to accept a wage increase which is completely and adversely disproportionate to the increase which has taken place in the cost of living during the past five and a half years. Does the Government intend to continue that policy? Is it intended, for instance, to permit the cost of living to remain as high, judged by Government standards, as 71 per cent. over the 1939 figure and is it intended that the workers should get no more than an increase of 15 per cent. in their wages to meet that substantial increase in the cost of living? If that is intended then, although the workers will have seen the war end, they will not have seen an end of the problems which arose out of the war.

The effect of the Government's policy during the past five years has been to make the struggle for life, so far as the mass of working people are concerned, keener and sterner and a continuance of that policy will result in the continued debasement of the standard of living of the masses of the people. To ask workers in receipt of low wages, particularly workers in the agricultural industry, when prices are 195 per cent. over the level of July, 1914, and 73 per cent. over those of August, 1939, to produce, say, food for the nation on a wage of £2 per week is to ask them to live on less than subsistence standards. The Taoiseach owes it to the House and to the country to say in what direction the Government's mind is moving in respect of wage and price levels. It is not an unusual thing for persons who move through this city to see certain traders advertising that the controlled price of a certain commodity is so much but that the price charged by that particular firm is less than the controlled price. Inasmuch as none of these firms is in business for charity or to sell goods at a lesser sum than will yield them a substantial profit, that indicates——

Is not that a matter of administration and one for the Minister for Supplies?

I do not want to plough into this matter in any detail, but this Bill has been utilised, much to the surprise of those who gave the powers to the Government, to regulate wages and, nominally in any event, to regulate prices.

The Deputy was discussing the question of prices, certain aspects of which were debated on the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

This Bill is the villain of the piece so far as wages are concerned.

But not administration.

I shall discuss the wage policy of the Government and of the Taoiseach. This Bill is the villain of the whole piece so far as wages are concerned. It is the Bill by which the Government clamp down wages. My contention is that the Government have utilised their powers to clamp down wages as low as possible while, on the other hand, they have permitted prices to rocket skywards without displaying the same efficiency that they displayed in relation to wages. Does the Taoiseach intend to continue that policy? Is the policy to be a continuance of small wage increases for the workers and substantial profits for the producers and large-scale distributors, or are we to get any approximation to pre-war standards of living with pre-war relationship to price levels? Are we to be compelled to accept for another generation the lopsided levels we have had during the past five years, with prices rocketing and wages forced down as low as the Government can force them?

I saw in the Press the other day a reply by the Minister for Education to a Parliamentary question in which he said that the Government had worked out some new scales of salary for the teachers, that these would be applied when the emergency was over and that he hoped to have discussions with representatives of the teachers in the course of the next few months.

Everybody will welcome an increase in salaries for teachers because of the fact that they have been very badly paid but the Minister's reply appeared to indicate that, as far as he was concerned, he saw the emergency ending in the course of a few months and that the ending of the emergency, as he saw it, would apparently permit the lifting of the wage ceiling and the introduction and application of new scales of salaries for teachers. Would the Taoiseach mind telling us whether his mind is running in the same direction as that of the Minister for Education? Would he tell us for instance whether he contemplates the termination of the emergency so far as wage standards are concerned in the course of a few months? Would he say whether the Government contemplates the lifting of the ceiling in relation to other grades of workers such as apparently is contemplated by the Minister for Education in relation to teachers? One thing I would impress on the Taoiseach is that the whole wage policy of the Government has resulted in foreing down the standard of living of the masses of workers in this country. At the same time, the effect of the Government's price policy has been to allow well-to-do people to get wealthier during the emergency.

Many firms, producers and distributors have made profits at the expense of workers during the emergency which they never dreamt of. Approximately £4,000,000 was ranked in last year in the form of excess profits, ranked in by robbing the pockets of the workers. I suggest that that £4,000,000 might have been spent in an effort to reduce prices and to bring these prices within the ability of the masses of the people to pay. I think the Taoiseach should tell us whether the Government is going to continue the policy which they have pursued for the past five-and-a-half years or whether they will revise their price policy, insist on keeping prices at a reasonable level and on maintaining at least the pre-war relationship of wages and prices.

I do not think many Deputies have contributed to this debate from the farmer's point of view but one point emerged that struck me very forcibly. The late Arthur Griffith and the late D. P. Moran agreed about 40 years ago that it took about £200 to rear a young man or a young woman up to the age at which they could emigrate, say 19 or 20. I wonder what it would take at the moment? I suppose one could add £50 or £100 to that figure. One wonders how a poor man can raise a family at all in these circumstances. Those who go away when they reach that age are a great loss to the nation, yet we know that there is £400,000,000 of our money invested in foreign countries. That has been going on for 100 years and it is still going on while the country remains practically undeveloped. There are about 55 per cent. or 60 per cent. of our people engaged on the land. I mentioned here some time ago that in every 30-acre farm it would be possible to add another man to the number employed, while on a farm from 30 to 60 acres we could add two, and in the case of a farm from 60 to 90 acres three additional employees. Our young boys and girls are going abroad. Why? Because the farmer cannot afford to pay them attractive wages at the price which he at present receives for his produce.

Would the Deputy relate that argument to the Emergency Powers Act?

Quite so. They are flying from the country.

I ask the Deputy to relate that to the Emergency Powers Act.

Does that not come into it?

I should like the Deputy to show how it does.

I heard Deputy Norton speak of low wages.

Deputy Norton spoke of the control of wages.

I was greatly sturck by his plea for higher wages for the workers, but we did not get very much support when we were looking for a higher price for beet and milk products last year.

That has no connection with the Bill before the House.

We have not the wherewithal to pay agricultural workers or to pay ourselves for our work. Deputy O'Leary mentioned something about young men flying from the country, but we cannot get sufficient agricultural workers in Tipperary. I could get work for agricultural labourers with every third farmer in Tipperary at the moment, but the workers are not there. We cannot get the wherewithal to pay them.

These questions do not arise on the Bill.

Perhaps then I have said sufficient.

I am opposed to a continuance of the powers of prohibition on travel which the Government have enjoyed because I greatly fear that these powers will be exercised unduly to keep at home people who are anxious to better themselves abroad. Take, for instance, the case of the nurses. If nurses go to England they can get double the salaries they are paid here. There is a big demand for probationers in England and probationers are generally girls of from 19 to 20 years. The Government may use these powers to say: "We shall not let you go." I am afraid the Government will use the powers unduly and unfairly. I would ask the Taoiseach to give us a guarantee that if persons of that type, probationers and others, are given opportunities to go away and to earn much better salaries than they are offered here, he will see that they are permitted to go.

We all know that working conditions for nurses in this country are anything but fair. I suppose they are the worst paid female workers in the whole country. If this power is given to the Government, a nurse may want to get away to take up a better position and the Government may say: "We shall not let you go." On the other hand a nursing home or an institution may say to such a nurse: "If you do not come to work with us, we shall report you and say that you are an essential worker." That unfortunate nurse is then forced to take up a position here on the miserable wages and conditions that are offered at home. If travel permits were not unduly withheld in that way, employers, institutions and local authorities, such as county boards of health, would have to increase nurses' salaries, improve their conditions and make these positions pensionable. There would then be some inducement for nurses to remain at home.

Another case comes to my mind. A few years ago the travel restrictions were used against a particular individual who was classed as an essential man in the shipbuilding trade. He has a wonderful pair of hands, but he was paid only £4 a week here in Ireland. He was offered a job in Canada at £1,000 a year. I raised the case here in the House at the time. His employers used the Emergency Powers Order to restrain him. They said: "He is essential to our industry and we cannot spare him". That man was refused permission to leave the country. Then, having promised the man permanent work—I think he had £6 or £7 a week as he was a pretty good man—his employers said: "Although we put you down as essential, we now find that we can do without you, but we will put you on repair work at £4 a week". They first put his name on the list as an essential man and said that they wanted him for development work. In that way, they prevented him from getting a job in Canada. Then they reduced his wages and offered him temporary work at £4 a week. I raised the case in this House, and because the Minister saw that the terms of contract of this man of £6 or £7 a week were being broken he allowed the man to go away; but, by the time permission was granted, the job was not available. Thanks, however, to his trade union, he was able to apply for a similar job and he travelled to Canada, where he is now doing well.

Surely this emergency legislation will not be used to prevent other men getting opportunities to make good in other hands and surely the Taoiseach can give us some guarantee that if such a case arises the authorities will not use their powers to prevent such men going away. The Government have a majority and can do what they like. I do not want to use the word "dictatorship", but when a Government with an overwhelming majority puts forward a proposal, we all know that it will be carried. All we can do is to ask the Taoiseach to give us a guarantee that such people as I refer to will not be unfairly treated.

I have in mind especially the cases of nurses. County councils, homes and hospitals in England look for Irish nurses, and these girls should get an opportunity of taking up employment there, if they so desire, until such time as the wage standards and conditions of their profession are as good here as across the water. Most Deputies have spoken of going to England, but in the old days it was America, to which country our fathers and grandfathers went in those days. Is that kind of thing to be prevented under these new powers and are our people to be denied the opportunities available in these distant lands? Far away fields are green, as the Taoiseach said, but even if that is so, there is such a thing as liberty. This measure is really a coercion measure and means coercion, if full effect is given to it, and I ask the Taoiseach to give us an assurance that the powers contained in it will not be unfairly used against our citizens.

The Deputy talks about new powers. I anticipated, of course, that there would be a considerable amount of opposition to this Bill. I think it only right that there should be a full discussion of any measure of this sort, but I hoped that that discussion would be based on the Bill and on what the Bill sought to do and would be narrowed down to a relatively small field, but it has roved over the whole wide world. When I came here asking for certain powers nearly six years ago, we had to face the possibility of one of the greatest dangers this country ever had to face. We did not know what it might hold for us and we therefore got very full powers, but in fact during those five or six years, while there were dangers around us, the only immediate internal problem we had to deal with was mainly of an economic character and not of a military character. Whatever threats and dangers existed—and we had to have powers to meet not merely what was happening but what might happen — during the last five and a half years, the immediate difficulties we encountered in practice were difficulties of an economic character, related mainly to the problem of getting supplies and so on. That is the position, and I think all Deputies will admit that it is so.

I do not.

Will the Deputy tell us what army we had to fight on our shores?

Certainly. I remember the Government passing a Bill—which was discussed at the Defence Conference and passed here without discussion — authorising the Government to lock up 500 men on the Curragh, on the ground that they were conspiring with a foreign army to invade this country.

It was not in that connection that we brought in these Bills. We had the Offences Against the State Act which was ordinarily sufficient to enable us to deal with that situation. The difficulty was accentuated by the fact that there was a war, but mainly our difficulties in this community for the last five and a half years were of an economic character, created mainly by the fact that it was difficult to obtain supplies from outside. That is my view of it. We had to have powers, it will be admitted, to face many other possibilities. We had to do all sorts of things in preparation for meeting possible military attack from outside, but the difficulties we really suffered from here were difficulties of an economic character. We were fortunate of all the nations of the earth that that was so, because these other nations had to deal, directly and immediately, with attacks of a military character. They were waging war and war was waged upon them. We were fortunate and therefore most of our difficulties worked out in practice to be difficulties of an economic character, because the threats did not materialise.

Because of the Statute of Westminster.

It is not so, but I cannot argue that with the Deputy here. They did not materialise because some particular individuals who had the power to do things did not wish to do them, whatever may have been behind their ultimate decision not to do them. I do not propose to go into that, but ultimately it hung on that. We, however, were fortunate that we did not have to deal with military attack on this country, and we have been, of all the nations on the earth, most fortunate for that reason, because these military attacks brought with them not merely immediate danger and death but also the tearing asunder of social life in these countries. It brought an economic situation on them tenfold more terrible than was brought upon us.

We have been fortunate, and, if we had not been, we would not be discussing these questions in the spirit in which we have been discussing them here in the last two or three days. We have a feeling of happiness, although matters may have been irritating at times, that this thing is possible because we have been fortunate. What is actually being done by us here? We said it is our intention, and we have not deviated from it, to get rid of those powers which were given to us in certain circumstances, as quickly as the circumstances would permit. I said at the start that this war is only two months over, the European side of it; that there is still a major world war on; that it is not simply being waged at the other side of the world—that our next-door neighbour is engaged in it; that that next-door neighbour of ours is at war; that war restrictions are in force there; that the United States of America is also at war; and that, therefore, the supply position, as far as we are concerned, has not improved to any extent, and may become worse than it has been at any particular period during the war. That is a fact. Now, that being a fact, what can we do about it? We said that we were anxious to get rid of those powers as soon as we could. The moment the European war was over, we got rid of a number of them. At least we got rid of the particular Orders that were made under those powers, and we came to the point at which we said: "We can practically get rid of everything now except that which has immediate and direct relation to supplies", or to the economic situation, if I keep it a little bit wider, but mainly with regard to supplies.

Do not forget that people could have starved in this country, because, although we are producing food in excess of our needs, there is the distribution of that food, and it cannot always be made available for the ordinary citizen. People could have been shivering with cold in our houses here. Some of them are even as it is, but that situation could have been ten times worse. We could have been short of food. We could have been short of clothing. We could have been short of fuel. All those things were possible, and the Government had to have powers to try to see that in so far as we could make them available from our own resources, those supplies would be made available. We had to turn to turf. We had to increase our production of wheat. We had to do a number of things, and we did not get those things done simply by the goodwill of everybody in the community. Even a large section of the community could not have done it if there was not co-operation, and in every community there will be a number of people who will not co-operate, who will not be good citizens, and of course if a certain section will not be good citizens their neighbours will say: "Why should we do those things when others are let off?" Therefore, powers of compulsion were absolutely necessary in order to get through that situation as well as we have been able to get through it. Again I say it refers mainly to the questions of supply and production. That situation has not altered to any large extent. Therefore, we say that we are not yet in a position in which we can dispense with all those powers, but we have come in here to the Dáil and said: "Give us time to segregate them. We have had only two months."

Do not imagine that Departments of Government, which should be staffed only to the extent required to meet ordinary work, can cope with peak work of that particular kind. If we are going to carry staffs to deal with that, then for ordinary circumstances we would be carrying surplus staffs. Give us a chance of going through those Orders and segregating them, but we say, without going through them at all, that there are certain things we are prepared to do. There was the question of censorship. That is not immediately related to supplies. Out it goes. There was the question of arrest and detention and so on. That goes. That Bill takes it away. There was the question of minimum fines. That has gone. It has, of course. There was the question of a special court, the military court. There are two courts. There is the court under the Emergency Powers Acts. That has gone. The Deputy says no? Can he not read? The trouble about Deputy Dillon in this particular case is either that he is deliberately not wanting to see or he has not studied the Bill at all.

That is not fair. I have studied the Bill.

Well, if the Deputy has studied the Bill, he knows definitely that the military court has gone; that the minimum fines have gone; that the powers of arrest and detention have gone; that the power of interfering with the movement of citizens, Irish citizens, has gone, except in the one regard, and we have had a long discussion of that, and the need for it has been pointed out on our side—the question of the restriction on the departure of citizens from this country. I say you cannot control that unless you have prohibition as well. I am not going to deal with that particular point because we have dealt with it separately. This Bill then is the prohibition of ourselves from using this Act as a means of doing things that we are getting rid of. We are getting rid of a number of the powers which we have and we are retaining others in a general form. The reason we are retaining the others in a general form is that it has not been possible to go through them and say: "We want to do this, that and the other thing" precisely and particularly with respect to certain cases.

I cannot set a date to the ending of this situation with regard to supplies. I have said to the Dáil that when this period comes around again, if I should be alive and here I hope to bring in a Bill which will be replacing this one, and to say: "This is the sort of powers we find that we need to continue. We do not need those other powers", but I do not see what particular advantage there is at the moment in doing it in that precise form. Are we not getting to our ultimate aim just as quickly by getting rid of the things that are no longer needed, and that are objectionable? Nobody here in this House who has spoken against restrictions would speak any more strongly than I would. I detest them. I should like to see everybody in the community having as much freedom of every type as is consistent with the welfare of the community as a whole. Therefore, I have no desire, and I do not think any member of the Government has a desire, to keep those powers on, but we have the responsibility of safeguarding the interests of the community during the period that is ahead of us, and the period of danger from the supply position still continues. I think, therefore— although I am prepared to do the other—that we are proceeding in that direction just as well by the process of getting rid of things we do not want and trying to retain in the continuing powers only that which we do want. That is what is being done here. We are continuing the powers, it is true, but we are doing so after getting rid of a number of others. We are amending the Act by saying that we cannot do to-day what we could do yesterday or the day before. I am asking the House, therefore, as a necessary measure to pass this Bill.

Deputy Dillon seemed to suggest but I do not trust the House in an emergency. We are not in this Bill taking powers to deal with an emergency such as the Deputy has in mind. The powers that are being kept deal with an emergency that is on, the emergency of supplies, and what it would lead to. I am perfectly certain that we can trust the House, because whatever differences there may be between us, and whatever arguments we may have here from time to time, I think that when a common danger threatens all of us have good sense enough to know that if we do not hang together then we will hang separately.

Hear, hear.

I think this is sufficient to force people, no matter how different their views may be on other matters, to come together in a time of crisis. What I am asking the House now is—it is not so easy perhaps to see it when there are inducements to people to forget it—to give us the powers to preserve this community during the dangerous period that is still ahead from the supply position, in the same way that it gave us powers to preserve it during the period we have passed through.

What about the school teachers?

What have the school teachers to do with this? I am asking the House to give us the powers which we deem to be necessary. My first request to all the Departments, at the end of the European war, was: "Go through all the Orders that have been made, examine the powers which you have been exercising and get rid as quickly as possible of the ones you think you can get rid of." As regards the other powers which have been so valuable from the community point of view and which you think should be embodied in ordinary legislation—they might, for example, have discovered that, in the period we have gone through, there were certain things which it would be valuable to the community to have preserved in ordinary legislation—I asked them, if there were such things, to put them aside, and then try to get for us the precise powers which we want. As the result of that examination they gave me this Bill as the best thing they could do at the present time. They are waiting to get rid of this, that and the other, but they do want these powers to deal with the matter of supplies.

I ask the House to be wise now in giving us these powers for this particular continuation of the emergency. I ask the House to be as wise now in giving us these powers as they were wise in giving them to us originally. It may be that there were differences of opinion as to whether, in particular cases, the powers were used wisely or unwisely, harshly or otherwise; but, on the whole, is there any Deputy who is not going to say that the fact that we had these powers has been the instrument, in fact the main instrument, in saving our economic structure here during the emergency? Deputies know perfectly well that we would have gone to pieces if we had not got them. Do Deputies want us to go to pieces now? I am sure they do not. I believe that the good sense of Deputies will lead them to give us a continuation of these powers, such of them as remain, for the period that we have still to go. I assure the House—and this is my last word—that the moment we can get rid of this whole code completely and absolutely the better I will be pleased.

May I ask the Taoiseach a question?

No, questions are finished.

Surely, I can ask a question?

This Bill has been discussed in all its moods and tenses.

But, surely, I can ask the Taoiseach a question?

The Chair is not allowing questions. I am putting the question.

Do you say that I cannot ask a question?

The Deputy will please sit down.

You will not allow me to ask a question which the Taoiseach is willing to answer?

The question is: "That the Bill do now pass."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 46; Níl, 27.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colbert, Michael.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Furlong, Walter.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Brain, Donnchadh.
  • O Cléirigh, Micheál.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
  • Walsh, Laurence.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard S.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Bennett; George C.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, William F.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kissane and O Briain; Níl: Deputies P. S. Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 17th July, 1945.
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