Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (12th Dáil) – Friday, 14 Jun 1946

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health (Resumed).

The Dáil resumed consideration of the Vote in Committee on Finance.

Mr. Halliden

As the Minister is aware, there is a very serious shortage of agricultural workers throughout the country. In my opinion, that is due mainly to the insufficient number of houses available to them. We appreciate that efforts are being made by the Government to expedite the erection of houses throughout the country generally. Still, the fact remains that, while a large percentage of those houses is being erected in the urban areas, the percentage to be erected in the rural areas is very small, some 25 per cent. At the present time there is a grant available for the renovation and construction of houses for small farmers. I hold that, under present circumstances, that grant is too small. There is also a grant to agricultural workers for the erection of houses. It was fairly generous in normal times, but now when commodities are very dear it is altogether insufficient and very few agricultural workers can avail of it. They have to buy a plot from some local farmer and then they get £80 as a grant, which does not go very far in the erection of a labourer's house. The Minister should consider the advisability of increasing the grant substantially.

In my locality, several of those houses have been erected and they definitely are a great asset to the agricultural workers, as well as to the farmers who want the farm work done. It is very hard for an agricultural worker to build a house at the present time and, that being so, I wonder if the Minister would consider the reasonableness and the advisability of having grants made available to farmers who desire to build houses for their labourers. I know several farmers who would do that, if they got an inducement. If the grants now available to the workers were made available to the farmers also, for the erection of labourers' houses, it would be a great help.

I was speaking recently to an extensive farmer in my locality on the labour shortage. He employs about 20 hands regularly and I asked him how he stood now in connection with spring and harvest work? He told me that he never had any difficulty with his labourers because he has houses for them. Many young boys and girls are very anxious to settle down in life, if they could get homes, and I think every encouragement should be given to the building of these houses, either by them or their employers. If a local authority builds a labourer's cottage, two-thirds of the cost of its erection is provided, whereas if a labourer himself decides to build, he does not get one-fifth of the cost. It would be well if the grant in that respect were considerably increased, because it would be a great incentive, both to agricultural workers and to farmers.

With regard to workers' houses in urban areas, I recently interviewed some employers who were willing to build houses for their workers, if there was an inducement by way of grant. Some people may feel that that is not a very commendable way of approaching the matter—such houses may be regarded as tied houses—but, still, all large firms at present are inclined to build houses for their workers and the people who occupy them are quite satisfied to get them, although they are built by their employers. There was, I think, some time ago, a grant available to employers in urban areas for the erection of such houses and I hope that grant will be restored.

As to the managerial system, I suggest it should be revised. It needs drastic amendment in many directions and I think the Minister should revise it in the light of the experience he has gained in the past three years. The position, as I find it in my county, is that the manager and his assistants are overworked. They find it physically impossible to go from place to place holding meetings of urban councils, public health committees, etc., etc., and attending to various other duties, and I am afraid that the health of many of these managers and their assistants is being very seriously impaired because of the overwork which the system entails. I can give the Minister particular examples of it if he wishes.

I want to suggest also that the Minister should consider the advisability of arranging for the payment of the supplementary grant of 2/6 to old age pensioners through the Post Office, with the old age pension. Some of the pensioners—all people over 70 years of age—have to travel long distances to collect this allowance and great inconvenience is caused to them. In addition to arranging for the payment of the allowance with the pension through the Post Office, I suggest that the Minister should double the amount, and give these poor people an opportunity of meeting the cost of living which is rising every day. Commodities of various kinds are dear; clothes are dear, and all provisions are dear; and still old age pensioners have got little increase. If the Minister could see his way, in conjunction with the local authority, to increase the allowance to 5/-, it would be a good day's work for very deserving and needy people.

Mr. Lydon

I should like to commend the Minister on his Estimate and particularly on the method adopted by him of giving all necessary information in respect of each sub-head. We have had a lot of talk about housing, and it is peculiar that there are Deputies who have been members of public bodies for a number of years who do not yet appear to realise their functions in this matter of housing. One would gather from the speeches made here that it was the function of the Local Government Department to provide houses. That is not true. It is the business of the local authority to make provision for houses, to put up the necessary schemes to the Department, which, having duly considered them, will make the necessary subsidies available.

In 1943, a circular was issued to all local authorities in which they were asked to prepare schemes for submission to the Post-war Planning Committee, and last year the Minister told all local authorities to proceed with the preparation of housing schemes as expeditiously as possible and that the matter of the subsidy would be adjusted at a later date. In this Estimate, provision is made for the subsidy, which is to be retrospective in respect of houses built in recent years. We in Galway are very thankful that the subsidy has been increased and that this Transition Development Fund has been created to keep rents at a normal fixed level.

The Department, in 1937, terminated the provision of grants under the 1932, and continuing, Housing Acts to urban areas. I do not know what the point of that was, but these grants should be restored as they would be an incentive to the private builder to go ahead with house-building. Deputy Halliden mentioned employers building houses for their workers. If he reads the 1932 Act, he will find that there is nothing to prevent any group of employers forming a friendly society to build houses for their workers and getting the necessary subsidy from the Department. As a matter of fact, it has been suggested at different times that the trade unions, instead of continually crying about housing—and some of them have fairly considerable funds— should form friendly societies and build houses. They will get the same facilities as the local authority.

The most important development which has taken place for a number of years—it does not strictly arise on this Estimate—is the action of the Minister for Finance in bringing down the rate of interest. In areas in which local authorities have heavy indebtedness and a tremendous amount of sewerage and water scheme work to carry out, the reduction will bring down their overheads by about 40 per cent. It is a great departure and one for which the House should be very thankful. Under it, too, urban authorities may provide money for building houses under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act. I think the original rate for that was 4¾ per cent. and the local authorities were allowed ½ per cent. for administration costs. Now, the money will be made available to them at 2½ per cent. and it will be lent to the borrowers at 3 per cent. The drop from 4¾ per cent. to 3 per cent. will make a very big difference to the borrower in his annual annuity charge.

There is one further matter I wish to stress in connection with roads. I agree with the proposition to set up dual carriage ways, but I do not think that this 90 foot scheme is one that is suitable for this country; I think, too, that it would be outside the scope of the finances of this country. I would ask the Minister why, when making the supplementary grant for roads to the local county councils, he left out the urban roads. I think the reason given was that they had not suffered the same deterioration over the last six years as the county roads. That may be true to some extent but it is certainly not true in the case of Galway. I am sure the Minister knows the position there. To the west you have an extensive turf area, while the railway station is situated on the east side of the town. All heavy turf traffic from the west has to pass over the urban roads, thereby causing considerable deterioration in them. There is definitely an injustice being done in connection with those roads and I think the Minister would be well advised to make some provision by way of a special grant for the repair and upkeep of these roads, even outside of the usual county council scheme. In the case of Galway a great injustice has been done in respect of these roads.

The Minister spoke about town planning and told the House that he is setting up a special section to deal with it. I would offer one word of advice to the Minister in regard to town planning, and that is "Make haste slowly." In England they brought in a Town Planning Act and I think it was only in the early stages of the war that they began to realise there the big difficulties in the way. We have a town planning scheme in Galway—a sketch development scheme prepared by an architect. I may as well tell the Minister now that the original scheme submitted to the local authority was utterly fantastic; it would have cost millions—not thousands—to put it into operation. Planning is all right where its essential purpose is to keep alignment or for the economic development of an area.

I agree that planning is desirable there. I do not agree with planning when it reaches the stage where a man is going to be told what colour he may paint his front door. That, I understand, is quite possible under the 1939 Act. If the Minister does intend to set up this section I think it will be necessary to take a very broad view. He told us that he proposed to have one principal officer and one architect. That, I believe, was his intention. But I would advise him strongly that he must make every effort to hold the balance evenly between the planning authority and the man-in-the-street, because planning can be a very autocratic business indeed.

Mr. McMenamin

Quite true.

Mr. Lydon

There is now the control of shops under it. Recently there was a case which came to my notice in Galway where a woman, who all her life had a small shop—a huckster's shop, if you like—was notified that under a planning scheme the entire row of houses in which her shop happened to be situated would have to be demolished. She thereupon bought a site on the other side of the road with the intention of building a shop there. She was turned down. The Minister may tell me that there are rights of appeal. I grant you there are, but the procedure of appeal is a costly business because a tremendous lot of preparation has to be made for it in the way of plans and specifications and so forth. It is not the appeal itself so much as the preparation of the necessary data which is the big snag. I would advise the Minister again to "make haste" slowly. Town planning is a difficult subject; it can also be a very costly affair indeed.

At long last—one does not wish to appear too carpingly critical now—we are going to have the Galway municipal hospital. I suppose the less said about it now the better. Even at this late hour we are glad to know that it is going to come.

Now, there is one little matter to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention and that is the advisability of establishing some kind of liaison officer between the local authorities and his Department. I understand that in the old days under the British régime a senior inspector of the Department of Local Government occasionally visited the local councils or local bodies and smoothed out difficulties which had arisen or grievances, real or imaginary, under which such councils were labouring. I think that some similar system should be adopted now and I think that in that way more satisfactory work would be done and done probably more expeditiously. There would be less criticism of the Department of Local Government, on the one hand, and less criticism of the managerial system, on the other. That would also lead to co-operation and I think that co-operation is very desirable in matters of this kind. The present system is rather cold, if I might so describe it. Schemes promoted through the local authority go to the county manager; they are then sent up to the executive office here; if there are technicalities involved they are passed on to the section which deals with them; and in that way they pass through a whole series of people who are completely divorced from the actual situation. When there is any snag at any particular point you have the local authority, like the Deputies in this House, blaming the Department of Local Government, and you have the Department of Local Government blaming the local authority. If there were some system under which an inspector of the Department would occasionally visit the local bodies I think that snags and difficulties could be smoothed out as between the two. That was the original system.

Deputy O'Leary spoke about the free turf. He is not in the House at the moment but I would like to tell him about our scheme in Galway. I can give him full particulars about it. It is called the Mayor's fuel scheme; it is run by a local committee and it gives out turf free of charge. The necessary grants are made by the Department of Local Government under the different classifications and the balance is raised by public subscription. It is a very interesting scheme and a study of it would occupy the Deputy's mind to advantage.

Before I conclude, I have one very serious charge to make in the House in connection with a local matter. I regret that I have to do it; but I think myself it is a matter of some public interest and it is certainly a matter which requires investigation. Recently, the Galway County Council advertised for the position of 11 temporary engineers in the month of April in all the daily and local papers. On the face of it that looked perfectly all right. A number of people applied and on the 11th May a number of people attended for interview in Galway. The interview started at 12 o'clock and continued throughout the day with a break of, I think, one half-hour. Many of the unfortunate applicants were compelled to go away without interview in order to catch their 'buses; but during the progress of the interview they began to realise that there was something radically wrong. Now, the fact is that this interview—and I will submit to the Minister all the necessary and relevant data—to put it in a nutshell, was a fraud. I have no objection to the persons in question being appointed but what I do object to is the advertising in the local and daily papers of certain positions, calling people to an interview, when the people who are interviewing—at least the principal one of them—had already intimated that he was going to give these positions to certain specified people.

Mr. MacEntee

Perhaps the Deputy would elaborate that a little. He said that a certain person who conducted the interview had already announced that he was going to give the positions to certain people.

Mr. Lydon

Yes, I will do that What I object to, as I have said, is not the appointment of the individuals in question but the procedure—first, the advertising in the local papers, deluding the public into thinking this was a genuine interview, and holding these unfortunate people there from 12 in the morning until some time in the evening. Some of them had to go home. I know that men came from Dublin, Sligo, Ballina, and so on, and it cost them quite a nice sum. I will read a letter issued from the Bank of Ireland Chambers, Westmoreland Street, Dublin, dated 2nd May. Bear in mind that the date of the interview was the 11th May:

"Re: Temporary Engineers— Comhairle Condae na Gaillimhe.

"Dear Sir—We thank you for your letter of the 30th ultimo, received here this morning. In view of the fact that applications for the position in question must be lodged by the 3rd instant, we wired you as follows:—

‘Advise withhold application. Writing.'

The Central Council desires to thank you on behalf of the engineering profession for your co-operation with the cumann in its efforts to regularise and improve the salaries paid to temporary engineers.

The salary offered for the posts in question does not strictly comply with the Schedule of Minimum Salaries because `suitable experience' is specified in the advertisement. The Central Council, however, is not taking strong action in this case because it is known that there are 11 engineers at present employed by the county council in question— eight at £4 per week and three at £5 5s. 0d. per week; and it is understood that the posts now advertised will be filled by these 11 engineers. This, as you will agree, is a step in the right direction and hence the decision of the Central Council not to take strong action.

In the circumstances it will probably be futile for you to make application, and at the same time, the Central Council considers that it would not be in the best interests of the profession for you to do so. The less applications the county manager receives the more will he realise the fact that £6 6s. 0d. per week is not an adequate salary where experience is required."

That is on the 2nd May and the interview was not until the 11th May. The more you study this thing the more you will see that there had been contact previous to that which definitely indicated that the positions were going to be filled in the particular way. I have here a statement from a person who was at this interview.

Mr. Donnellan

From one of the applicants?

Mr. Lydon

Yes, one of the applicants:—

"I interviewed the Galway County Surveyor, Mr. George Lee, on Wednesday, 3rd April, 1946. I was accompanied by my brother. The interview lasted about 15 to 20 minutes and was concerned with the 11 appointments mentioned above and generally for the purpose of my obtaining employment in Galway as an engineer. Mr. Lee stated that he had already 11 engineers working in the posts referred to at very low salaries and that it was his intention to have the posts filled by the engineers already mentioned above."

That statement is signed and witnessed. I have a corroborative statement by the man's brother.

From the data I have available and the statements which I have read, I think there can be no doubt that it was the intention of the county surveyor to appoint those persons. I want to make it particularly clear that I find no fault with his intention to appoint the persons concerned but what I do find fault with is, first, that these positions were advertised in the daily and local Press, at the expense of the ratepayers, secondly, that the people were deluded into applying and were caused unnecessary expense, thirdly, and most important of all, the odium which such things create in the public mind. I would ask the Minister, to whom I will send the necessary statements, to take some action to have all the applications examined in respect to the experience of the persons in question, and to see that such a thing does not occur in future.

I would make an appeal that somebody should pay the people who came to that interview. They are entitled to be reimbursed their expenses. One man had to hire a car for an extensive distance in order to go to the interview. One man came from Dublin and we all know what it costs to travel and stay over a number of days. You cannot do it all in one day now. These people should be reimbursed their expenses. Somebody should be made pay them.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister will forgive me if I emphasise a few points that have been made by other speakers. I will draw attention only to one or two matters that affect us in the City of Dublin. I want to emphasise again and again, at every opportunity I get, the alarming condition of housing in the City of Dublin and the position of people with large families and those with small families who are passed over completely and who have no opportunity of getting a room, a flat or a cottage. I appeal to the Minister, who has done so much in connection with housing, to go a step further and set up a housing board that will help local authorities to get the necessary materials to continue their building programmes.

For the last five or seven years the excuse has been—and it may become hackneyed—that there have been no materials. Men seeking employment have been told there are no materials to carry out the work. People seeking housing accommodation have been told there are no materials. We are told it is impossible to get glass, seasoned timber, steel or iron, all of which are required for the erection of every cottage and flat. I have reason to believe that if the Minister or the Minister's colleagues would go to the other countries—not send junior representatives —and try to make trade agreements, just as they did in connection with the coal-cattle pact—good results would ensue.

Perhaps the Minister will try to make some arrangement for the supply of necessary materials in return for our exports of food. Incidentally, I hope our exports will continue and increase and that we will be able to help other countries on the Continent. I think the Minister should be able to get, in return for the food we export, not paper money but materials which are so necessary in this country just now. In passing, may I hope, as regards the food supplies we export and hope to export, that we will not injure in any way our home supplies or drive up the cost of living on people who are in receipt of small wages here? The Minister should try to get materials available in other countries that will help us to continue our housing programme. There are countries producing timber and these countries may want goods that we are producing. Instead of taking their money for the goods we are producing we should ask them to pay us in materials that will help us to continue our housing activities.

We have sanctioned every proposal put up to us by the Dublin Corporation.

Mr. Byrne

Will you help us to get in materials to continue house-building schemes? The people in your own constituency, in Rathmines, are nearly as badly situated as people in tenements. They cannot get rooms. A newly married couple have to pay £1 a week for rooms. I merely want to bring home to Deputies the conditions in Dublin. Conditions here are as bad as in any part of Europe. We want 20,000 flats in Dublin and 10,000 cottages and I want the Minister's help in having them erected. I know the Minister is aware that the grants which the corporation are getting towards the erection of houses are just the same as in pre-war days. It now costs £750 to £800 to erect a house that in pre-war days would be built for £400, but the Government have not increased the grants to enable local authorities to meet the demand for housing.

I suggest there is a big problem regarding transport to housing schemes in the suburbs. Houses are erected on sites around the city and people find they have to travel three or four miles to those houses, thereby putting transport charges on top of rent and other expenses and those people have to cut down on certain commodities in order to pay their transport charges. Perhaps the Minister could help us to get a cheaper form of transport?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has nothing to do with transport; that is a matter again for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. Byrne

I know that, but it is no harm to ask him. He sanctions housing schemes and we have to put up the houses, but they are so far out that some agreement should be entered into to avoid putting further hardship on our citizens.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not an obligation on the Minister.

Mr. Byrne

I beg to differ with you, although I obey your ruling. This is really a matter for the Government. I will now discuss substitutes for the materials essential in house building. The Government have engineering staffs and scientists at their command. The Scientific Research Bureau should be able to devise certain substitutes for materials that are used in the building of houses. There is a difficulty in getting slates and glass and I think the Minister should ask the Research Bureau to find substitutes for such materials in order to enable us to continue our building schemes.

I suggest that when the Minister is introducing new measures for the protection of child life and the health of children generally, he should take the advice of organisations that deal with infant aid and child welfare. He ought at least to give them the satisfaction of an interview. They know what is required. One society in this city distributes milk. I think it operates under what is called the national milk scheme. That society has 300 to 400 voluntary visitors in Dublin, business girls who give up their time for the purpose of looking after children following hospital treatment. These girls know what is required and I think the Minister should take them into his confidence. When he is introducing any measures affecting child welfare, or bringing about some improvements, the members of this society should be consulted and their advice requested.

In a short time I think we shall have to ask the Minister for increased grants to meet the growing unemployment problem in the City of Dublin. Many workers are returning from across the water to increase the number of unemployed already in the country, and although the rate of demobilisation from our own Army may be slow, I am aware that a couple of thousand from that source will be added to the unemployed in a short time. It may not be easy to find work for these men and I would ask the Minister to see that suitable schemes will be prepared so that if they cannot get employment in industry, we shall have at least relief schemes which can absorb those who are anxious to avail of that kind of work. I am stopped almost a dozen times a day by young men outside this House who ask me how they are going to get employment. When I ask them if they have tried So-and-so, they produce a batch of letters showing that they have applied to a number of firms, all with the one result. I do not wish to make any attack on any Department for which the Minister is responsible but I think a greater effort will have to be made if work is to be provided for physically fit men who are daily joining the ranks of the unemployed.

Mr. Keating

It is necessary for me to remind the Minister once more of the condition of cottages occupied by agricultural workers in my constituency. I have reported the state of these cottages several times and three years ago I asked the Minister to send down an inspector to examine them. An inspector was sent down, and he found some of the cottages in a very bad state, but they have not been repaired yet. If the wife of an agricultural worker has to live in a damp house, which is in a bad state of repair, it is impossible for her to rear a healthy family, particularly if they have only bad food and bad clothes. In many cases people occupying these cottages have to shift their beds from one side of the room to another during rainy weather. I would ask the Minister again to send down an inspector to report on the condition of these cottages. I have already reported their condition to the county manager and he has promised to have them attended to as soon as possible. Nothing has yet been done to the cottages which I reported to the Minister three years ago. People should at least be assured of a dry bed to lie on.

Another matter to which I wish to draw the Minister's attention is the quality of the bread at the present day. Poor people have to live wholly on dry bread and tea.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Minister for Local Government and Public Health.

Mr. Keating

Is he not the Minister for Health? Is he not responsible for the health of the people?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Not for the quality of the bread.

Mr. Keating

If poor men and women have to eat bad bread they cannot be healthy citizens and they will fall easy victims to tuberculosis. I shall pass away from the subject of bread, in compliance with your wishes, Sir, but I think that good food is an essential thing. Very often the poor people have no butter for this bread or indeed no milk for their tea. They have to subsist on watery tea and bad bread.

Another matter to which I should like to call the Minister's attention is the inadequacy of old age pension allowance. The Minister for Finance has refused to provide any increase for old age pensions, but now at the eleventh hour, when many of these poor people are faced with a lingering death, I would appeal to the Minister for Local Government to do something for them. They are almost in the same condition as the people who went on hunger strike; they are barely able to keep body and soul together. I ask the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to increase the pension allowance by at least 50 per cent. until such time as the cost of living has again become normal. Let their pensions be paid through the Post Office instead of drawing, as under the present system, 10/- as a pension and then going as paupers to look for an additional 2/6. Only a minority of the pensioners are getting that 2/6. A case was brought to my notice last week where a man was getting the old age pension for the last three years and was getting in addition the extra allowance of 2/6. Three months ago his wife qualified for the old age pension also and she naturally looked forward to getting the extra allowance of 2/6 so that they would have a joint income of 25/-. She was, however, refused the extra allowance of 2/6.

That reminds me of a story about an old woman in New Ross whom I met one time. I bid her the time of day and asked her how she was getting on. She replied: "I am not too bad, all things considered. Myself and Mick are drawing 10/- each a week pension, thanks to Mr. de Valera." I said to her: "No; it is thanks to Lloyd George. Although Mr. de Valera is several years in office now you are still only drawing 10/- while British pensioners are drawing 25/- a week each." I say it is a disgrace to a Christian country to compel old people to live on 10/- a week and, at the eleventh hour, I would appeal to the Minister to increase the amount. I do not know how long the cost of living will remain at the present figure but if it were only for another year, these people are entitled to consideration.

I cannot understand why the present conditions should be allowed to continue in a country like this where we are so prone to expand our chests and say there is no poverty in the country. If the Minister will come with me, I can show him as much poverty in country districts as there is in the warstricken areas in Europe to-day. People have to send their children two or three miles to school in all kinds of weather badly shod and badly clothed. Sometimes they have no shoes at all. They have to remain in wet clothes in the school during the day and when they return to their homes in the evening, they have very poor meals awaiting them.

I have no bouquets to throw at the Government but, even if I had, I could not conscientiously throw them because I do not think they are worthy of them. Considering the speeches made by Fianna Fáil candidates before 1932, I can only say that they were all hypocrites. They told the poor people that, if they were returned to power, they would be a poor people's Government, and the poor people flocked in to vote for them. It is time that people realised the state of the country. It is ridiculous that in a country like this where in times gone by there was a big surplus of bacon and butter to export, there is not sufficient of these commodities for our own people now. Some people in the county I represent never see butter at all. The farmers have not a proper mixture to feed their cows during the winter time, and if cattle are not fed well during the winter, they are not going to give a proper supply of milk during the summer. This has happened because of bad management. In the case of farmers living between Enniscorthy and Wexford, they have to travel on a concrete road in order to reach their lands. I have met many of them at fairs, and I have received letters from several other farmers complaining that the turf lorries speed along this road at 30 and 40 miles an hour. Their horses turn around on the road when they meet the lorries with the high loads. I suggest that the remedy for that should be to limit the speed at which the lorries can travel.

I think they should be confined to a speed of 20 miles an hour, instead of travelling as they do at present at 35 and 40 miles an hour. I think that would help to get over the farmers' difficulties. The Minister is not here, but I think that a better and decenter man is sitting here. I hope that when the time comes and he will be a Minister he will be more liberal to the poor.

Mr. Pattison

This debate has gone on for a considerable time. I do not want to repeat what has been said already. Housing has been referred to, and rightly so, because Deputies from all parts of the country are, unfortunately, only too well aware of the urgency of this problem. We find at the end of a world war which has gone on for nearly six years, that our arrears in the matter of housing have considerably soared. On the question of the cost of houses, and what the rents are going to be, particularly for poor people who will be moved from slum houses, something should be done to bring down costs. The Government apparently are not prepared to tackle the monster called "Finance" in a proper way. In view of that, we ought to endeavour to eliminate all unnecessary costs so far as house-building is concerned. The Minister and his advisers must have learned a good deal during the housing campaign in the period 1932 to 1939. One lesson should be that many of the things considered beautiful when the houses were presented to the people have now become very unsightly things. I refer particularly to the amount of iron railing that one sees in connection with the housing schemes. The local authorities find it difficult enough to raise from the rates the sums of money necessary to provide for social services. They do their utmost to keep the rates as low as possible, and should not be called upon to provide money to maintain such amenities as iron railings. I would suggest that they could be eliminated from future housing schemes. I know schemes where a very nice concrete wall suitably plastered and coped was provided instead of iron railings.

In my opinion, it is far more presentable and far more artistic than the railing. It will last for ever, and, of course, there will be no maintenance cost. I am sure that that type of wall is actually cheaper to produce than the other which is expensive from the time it comes from the foundry until it is erected.

Another suggestion which I want to put to the Minister is that, when we are providing houses for very poor people, we ought to include in the plan a device which would save them from the necessity of buying certain articles of furniture, which, at the moment, are very expensive. For example, it should be an easy matter to provide in every bedroom in a working class house a built-in wardrobe. In Kilkenny we adopted a scheme of that kind. It met with general approval.

After all, the local authorities look to the Minister and his advisers for guidance in the matter of getting the best and the most economical type of working-class house. We must admit, I think, that many of the houses which were provided by local authorities in the old days, as we would say now, were, in fact, built according to a much better plan than some of the recent plans that were adopted. There is one plan which was turned out by the Minister's Department, and I think it was a disgrace. Houses were built according to it in a part of the country where, I think, the people should have been given a better type of house. It was called, I think, the Claddagh plan. I am aware, of course, that it has since been improved to some extent. My view is that it ought to be scrapped completely. I think it is a hopeless plan, and that an attractive house could never be produced by following it. I should like to see more thought given to the preparation of plans for houses that, if you like, will have more utility than beauty. After all, if the utility element prevails in the planning of the house everyone will admire it, and say that it is a beautiful house.

There is another point in regard to house building to which more consideration should be given. I refer to the production of slates.

I know, of course, that there have been some unfortunate calamities under the Trades Loan (Guarantee) Act, but, after all, there are some honest people left in the country, and they ought to be encouraged. We have in part of my constituency what are known as the slate quarries. Since that concern went into liquidation, numbers of farmers and working-class people in that area are themselves producing slates. Since the State claims that it is anxious to develop our national resources, it should, I suggest, encourage the production of slates. In the County Kilkenny, and in other counties I am sure, a satisfactory type of slate might be produced and made available. I think that we should avoid the use of a heavy concrete tile in our housing schemes in the future.

With regard to the work of local authorities, I want to say that owing to the many schemes which are being operated by the Minister's Department, such as the scheme for food vouchers, boot vouchers, turf vouchers and the others, the work of the clerical staffs in county council offices, particularly, is simply becoming overbearing. So far as I am aware, the Minister refuses to allow the local authority to make reasonable provision for adequate staff. I know for a fact that officials in county council offices have been working day and night. In fact, some of those officers have had a break-down in health in trying to cope with all the work that is to be done. A great part of their time is occupied in getting out returns, many of which are of very little use. Masses of figures and statistics of all kinds have to be got out. I think that we have enough of them without wasting time in getting out any more. Instead of being engaged on work of that kind, I think that those officials might be employed on more useful work.

I am definitely of opinion that this question of staff should receive more sympathetic consideration from the Minister. He must know that the members of local authorities are more concerned than he is in keeping down the rates, and that it is not our desire to create jobs for people, with the consequent result of having to provide salaries for them out of the pockets of the ratepayers.

I hope there will be some revision by the Minister of the position in regard to staffs employed by local authorities so that the work in the offices will be always kept up to date. We have superintending assistance officers. These officers have so much office work to do that they are kept in their offices day after day when they should be out seeing that the assistance officers were attending to the needs of the people. If they have to spend practically all their time doing office work, then the assistance officers are likely to become careless, and such has been the case, unfortunately, in a few instances.

I did raise here, by way of Parliamentary Question, the position of one section of local employees. I want to say to the Minister that in my own county, and I am sure in other counties, we have many men who are now in the autumn of their lives and who have given to the local bodies very valuable service. Since we became masters of our national affairs and started to make our country more up to date, these men have carried big responsibilities. In some cases, they are called overseers; in others they are called gangers or supervisors. A different system, I understand, prevails in every county; but under these men you have large numbers of ordinary labourers and other types of workers engaged. I think the Minister will agree with me when I say that a more conscientious army of men could hardly be found than that which is employed on the construction and maintenance of roads. I would urge him now to endeavour to produce his promised legislation so as to provide some social security for those people when they are no longer able to work. Some of them feel that the time has now arrived to make provision for them so that they might get out and make room for some of the young men who have recently left the Defence Forces.

I should also like to express the hope that the Minister will continue his efforts to have this scheme of social security, which he proposes to substitute for the much-welcomed scheme propounded by Most Rev. Dr. Dignan, implemented. The people of the country trust that their hopes will soon be realised and that the Minister will produce and implement his scheme.

As regards old age pensions, I agree with the speakers who have, to some extent, criticised the Administration in this respect. I do not see why the Minister for Local Government cannot create in that section of his Department the same spirit and atmosphere which exists in D'Olier House. There, non-contributory pensions under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act are dealt with and there is the same means test. I find a completely different approach by officials in that Department from the approach in the old age pensions branch. Both codes are based on a means test and I think that there should be carried into the old age pensions branch of the Minister's Department the same human touch which one is so glad to find so abundantly in evidence in D'Olier House.

I shall conclude by referring to a matter which affects my constituents very much, indeed. Under the County Management Act, we have no manager, inasmuch as the manager has two counties under his jurisdiction and lives with his family in County Waterford. We have no fault to find with the manager. Some of us are most sympathetic to him and feel that it is very unfair he should be asked to manage two counties. The Minister should give this matter some thought. To remedy it, an amendment of the Act may be necessary. The Minister must have heard, many times since the Act came into operation, that there is general dissatisfaction with this position. Farmers, business men and workmen who require personal contact with the manager on certain matters must wait about until he pays a flying visit to sign certain documents for his chief officials once a week, or sometimes once a fortnight. The people's representatives—members of the county council and corporation—feel the absence of the manager on many occasions.

That is not the manager's fault; it is the fault of the system. That is what the Act lays down and I presume an amendment of the Act would be required. There should be somebody available all the time in the courthouse who would have power delegated to him by the manager or the Minister, so that he could act in the manager's absence. Although I mention this matter last, it is very important and it is the matter on which I got up to speak, in the hope that something will be done by the Minister to appease the grievance which exists in Kilkenny because of the absence of the manager in another county.

Mr. R. Walsh

An Act passed here in 1929 contained a clause dealing with cul-de-sac roads. Those who inserted that clause had a worthy motive, to prevent corruption, because cases had arisen where individuals got roads made for their personal benefit. The object of the clause was to prevent abuses of that kind. But while doing that, it also created a hardship, because there are many townlands in Mayo where the roads leading to them are culs-de-sac, with the result that in densely populated areas the people have in many cases to make their way to the main roads through mud and slush. There should be some amendment of that clause, not to prevent abuse, but to enable local bodies to deal with special cases, and to provide the people with the necessary road accommodation. I have had considerable experience of local bodies since 1920, and I repeat that the provision as well as the upkeep of roads is going to become an unbearable burden. It is one that should be closely examined in all aspects. A good portion of the cost of roads should undoubtedly be a national charge. Admittedly, it would be unreasonable to expect that the entire costs should be a national charge, but, what should be a local charge and what should be a national charge should be defined, so that local authorities would know their position. Otherwise, some local bodies will not be able to bear road charges or may refuse to undertake to do so.

There have been many references to the housing question and some of the statements made were amusing. One Deputy, who dealt at length with tuberculosis, stated that one of the principal causes of that complaint was the lack of proper housing. The same Deputy made a fierce attack on the Department of Local Government. He complained that it was not making sufficient provision in its housing plans for people suffering from tuberculosis. No matter what Fianna Fáil does the Opposition and the critics say it is wrong.

Then we had one of the principal members of the Clann na Talmhan Party solemnly stating that there was discrimination against farmers in regard to housing. His reason for that statement was that a larger grant was made for the building of workers' dwellings than for the building of farmhouses. The fact that the farmer owns his own house and that he owns his land did not weigh with the Deputy. Of course, that was only a trifling matter. The fact that wherever the Land Commission deals with an estate it builds houses, and that the real cost of these houses is charged to farmers, was also only a trifle not worth mentioning. The taxpayers provide two-thirds or three-fourths of the cost of houses provided in that way. The same Deputy also forgot to mention what a terrible misfortune it is that workers cannot be guaranteed constant employment. Let any man of common sense go through the country and let him take a worker's dwelling and compare the rent he has to pay with what any farmer will have to pay for both a house and a holding of land. This class of thing, trying to play up to the meanest instinct of class prejudice, is very low tactics. There is no discrimination against the farmer, just as there is no discrimination against the worker. This Government and the former Government, as far as it was in their power, since we got the right to govern ourselves, have tried to hold the balance evenly in all the matters it could.

We heard a lot about the old age pensions and many Deputies wept tears over the pensioners. I am not going to say that the present rate is sufficient—I do not believe that it is— but it is as much as this State can afford at present. If there is to be any change, the direction in which I would like to see it in the immediate future would be in raising the basis of income. For instance, £39 10/- is altogether too low to use as a basis for estimating a man's income and if he is above that he does not get an old age pension. I would like to see that go up by at least 50 per cent. and it is in that direction I would like to see the reform, before we try to increase the pension. I know that 10/- is a very small sum, but I would rather give 10/- to three people than give a little more than that to two people.

We find Deputies talking about housing and making demands on the Minister to do this and do that. One would imagine that there was not a shot fired in Europe for the last 100 years, that there was no such thing as a war, with war vessels on the surface of the sea and under the sea and war planes overhead, preventing supplies coming in to this country. One would imagine that the Minister was a wizard who could say some magic words to conjure supplies out of some mythical store. It is right that local government should be well discussed during this Estimate, as it is a branch of Government which affects the life of the people very closely; but when we are discussing it, let us have a sense of realities. A Clann na Talmhan Deputy yesterday evening, after attacking the Government, telling us that the people were sick of the present Administration, then comes around and contradicts his own case by stating that the people voted for the Government because they were giving so much old age pensions, so much widows' and orphans' pensions and so many other things, and they were afraid they would not get them if the Government were not returned to power.

That is more evidence of a little co-operation. It proves to us that this alliance will be a real one and that no partner to it will let the other fellow down. In my opinion, if the Minister can conduct his Department as well during the coming year as he did in the past, under the difficulties he has to contend with, we will not have much to grumble about. We heard a lot of talk about roads from a Clann na Talmhan Deputy. He complained about all the money being spent in County Mayo on the main roads. I am not particularly aware myself as to why the backward roads are neglected and why we are not able to do the same thing for them, but I do say that I hope the Department continues to spend money on the roads.

It is giving considerable employment and I would not like to see it stopped. If the Deputy has any substitute that will give the same amount of employment, I will be glad to hear it. Mayo is very well aware of what Fianna Fáil has done regarding the roads. Some Deputy contended that the Fianna Fáil Government never did anything for the by-roads. I say here deliberately that they did more for the backward districts than any other Government which ever existed in this country since we got into power.

Mr. Keating

Did they blow up many bridges in 1922?

Mr. R. Walsh

I am sure the Deputy did not. Despite all that has been said about the Minister, and despite his being so much abused and that we were told it was a crime to congratulate him, I will end my speech by repeating that he did well during the past year and I hope he does as well during the coming year, in the adverse conditions under which he will have to carry on.

Mr. Commons

I have listened patiently to the whole of this debate and I agree with other Deputies that local government is very essential and that it really and truly caters for the needs of the people. By close co-operation between the local authorities and the central authority, everything will run smoothly. I was rather surprised by the manner in which the Minister introduced his Estimate. He definitely came into the House with an attitude which gave Deputies, who might have been inclined to put forward honest criticism, no option but to strike back on the lines adopted by the Minister. If the debate at times moved back beyond 1931 and 1932 to blown-up bridges in the civil war, nobody but the Minister can be blamed.

The Minister started by comparing the amount of money spent in 1931 and 1932 with the amount spent at present, but everybody knows that the value of the £ in those days was much greater than it is at present, that it was capable of purchasing much more and, even though over £2,000,000 is now spent on local government, there is not such a great increase from that point of view, and considering also the enormous increase in taxation which has come about in the intervening 12 years or so. I have not the slightest doubt that had Deputy Mulcahy, who was Minister for Local Government at that time, and his Administration presented the House with a Budget of £35,000,000 to £40,000,000, they could have included in that Budget much more for local government, for housing, for tuberculosis treatment and for the different social services. The previous speaker has said quite a lot about election speeches, but there was an undoubted tinge of electioneering in what we heard from the Minister.

When the Minister came down to facts in relation to his Department, it was easy to see that local government falls into four main categories and that the money provided will be expended in respect of tuberculosis treatment, housing, roads and social services. The greatest scourge in this country is the scourge of tuberculosis and it is no credit to any Government —Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or any other Government who may replace the present Government—that there should be a single tuberculosis sanatorium required in this island. Let the Minister or nobody else think that the provision of sanatoria will eventually oust tuberculosis. It is a cure, but not a prevention. What will get at the root of 90 per cent. of the tuberculosis problem is the provision of four good meals a day for every citizen, an honest day's work and a good house to sleep in. Any person who has these facilities should definitely be more immune from infection than those who have to live on small wages, in bad housing conditions, or those who are unemployed.

Nobody, however, will criticise the Minister with regard to the increase of something like £48,000 for combating tuberculosis. The white scourge is here and we must try the cure, since prevention has not been brought about. The Mayo County Council recently debated conditions of employment in these sanatoria and we were informed by the medical officer that he found it very hard to get cooks, maids and even nurses at the salaries they were permitted to give. We hear constant cries that nurses are not adequately paid and that, when they are trained, they go to England, Scotland and, now, I understand, to the Continent, where they enjoy much better conditions, and if the Minister could provide better conditions for these nurses in sanatoria and general hospitals, he would be moving in the right direction.

The next big item is housing. So much has been said about it that I do not propose to add very much, but I want to say that the housing carried out over the last 20 years may have its good points, but it certainly may have its bad points also. In County Mayo, where we have not very large towns, there is an outcry for every labourer's cottage which becomes vacant. For each cottage, there are seven, eight, 10 and even 12 applications from single men about to be married, and married men with families, and it is obvious that there are not sufficient houses to meet the needs of those people. The Minister's guarantee, therefore, that the housing problem will be tackled in a much more forceful way than heretofore will be welcomed.

We realise that for the past few years, no big housing scheme could be undertaken. It is foolish for Deputy Walsh, or any other Deputy in this House, to suggest that the Minister could make building material available out of his sleeve and lay it before the building contractors in order to enable them to build houses. That sort of argument cuts no ice anywhere. We do not anticipate that there can be any immediate improvement in the position in regard to the construction of new houses, in either the rural or the urban areas, in the course of the next few years. The question is, how much can be done in the next three or four years?

That is the all-important consideration before us now. The one commodity in which we are lacking at the present moment is timber. How much timber can be imported? That is the problem which now confronts the Government. They will have to shoulder the responsibility in that respect. The Minister has told us that 60,000 houses are to be built. The Minister can have no guarantee under present conditions that materials will be available for the construction of those 60,000 houses. Where is sufficient timber going to be found for the necessary roofing, flooring, staircases, doors, windows and so on? If the timber can be got, and if these schemes can be put into operation, it will be a splendid achievement undoubtedly.

Down in County Mayo we have labourers' cottages erected. A labourer— a married man with a wife and children —goes into one of those cottages. What is the situation with which he is faced? He has to rear his family on, perhaps, 36/- a week, or £2 a week. No man could bring up his family on such a meagre figure. No body in this House, or outside of this House, can say that a road-worker is in receipt of a living wage; no road-worker who goes into one of these cottages, can live in any sort of comfort. Various county councils have sent forward resolutions time and again to the Minister asking for increases in the wages paid to road-workers, turf workers, and so on; time and again, no attention of any kind has been paid to those resolutions. The same thing applies to the agricultural worker. How can those people find any courage to remain in this country, to go and live in county council-built cottages on a wage which does not permit them to live in even the most meagre comfort? That situation then leads to another evil. Where those workers find themselves unable to make ends meet they adopt a policy of sub-letting a part of their cottages. That is something which has been done to a great extent. I believe now that policy is being discouraged. I know the county manager in my area recently issued an order in regard to it. But the position now is that where that sub-letting has taken place in the past new slums are being created. Rooms are sub-let to a young married couple at 3/-, 4/- or 5/- per week.

In nearly every instance the original tenant can get as much in rent as he himself is required to pay in rent and rates per week. That is the position. The only way in which to meet that situation is by the erection of more houses. The erection of more houses will naturally place a bigger burden on the people; as Deputy Walsh has said, it is immaterial where the money comes from to finance these schemes because, in the last analysis, it comes, either directly or indirectly, out of the pocket of the taxpayer. I am glad to learn, though, that the money is now being made available at a lower rate of interest. I cannot understand why the Government should not have done this before now. There is no reason why the Government could not provide money, even at 1½ per cent., in order to help out in the erection of houses. That is not a matter for boasting on the part of the particular Minister concerned. It is the Minister's duty. If the Minister does his duty then it is up to the Opposition to congratulate him on that; if he does not do his duty, then it is up to the Opposition to criticise him for his ineptitude.

There is one further point I would like to make in regard to the designs of houses in this country. I agree with Deputy Hughes in this matter; I think it was he who said that housing in this country should not be of any uniform or standard type. There should be a considerable variety in design. Houses should, if possible, be built singly; where space is available they should be built in blocks of three or four. They should be built with different types of frontages, different types of windows and so on. I think that is something which the Minister should examine into to find out if it is possible to have more variety in design. He should instruct his architects that, in the preparation of designs in the future, more attention should be paid to variety. The expense may be a little more, but I think the country definitely would benefit by such a procedure.

The third item then with which I wish to deal is roads. There is no doubt that the roads absorb an enormous amount of money in every country, and part of the finances of the State as well. There is also no doubt but that we must have good trunk roads. We cannot leave the main and trunk roads all over the country full of potholes or with sadly deteriorated surfaces. If we decide to leave our roads as they are we may save money; but I do not think that is a direction in which any saving in money would be justified. Undoubtedly, we require a better type of road. But at the same time I cannot myself see any justification for our embarking on sixty foot wide roads. They are quite suitable on the continent of Europe where an enormous volume of traffc is daily passing over them; they are all right in the United States of America or in the Southern states of America where there is unlimited space. In this country we cannot afford to have such gigantic roads or highways, certainly they are not essential to our population as it is at the moment. We could, perhaps, have an easing off of corners and a straightening here and there. I would suggest, too, that some provision should be made for the farmers who use the roads with the humble horse and cart. I speak from experience here because I have hauled with a horse and cart over these roads and I know the amount of effort that is required on slippery surfaces. If the Minister could make some provision for the farmers it would be a good day's work on his part.

I do not think we should concentrate entirely on the trunk roads and main roads. It is quite right that they should not be neglected; but at the same time we should not neglect the other types of roads. They are just as essential to the country—or, perhaps, more essential—than the main arteries and the main highways. In my county we have one of the biggest road mileages in the whole of the Twenty-Six Counties. I admit that the present lay-out of the roads in that county is not the fault of the present Administration; they were laid out years ago. Now the county council in Mayo will take over and look after any road which is not less than eleven feet wide.

That leaves a vast mileage of by-roads and secondary roads—some of them mere culs-de-sac—which have to be looked after by means of the various minor relief schemes or the rural improvements schemes, as the case may be. I wish to deal mainly with culs-de-sac. There are cases where only one individual benefits by the road in question. There are others where as many as six, seven and eight people benefit. I have in mind a case where a road is being repaired at present under a rural improvement scheme which will benefit as many as 11 people. They should be entitled to just as much consideration as those who are fortunate enough to benefit by a road which can be taken over and maintained by the county council. They are all ratepayers. The Land Commission and the old Congested Districts Board, in their redistribution of land, very often have to create a number of culs-de-sac because an estate might run along the borders of a village which had a road of its own. In order to make a road for the tenants, a cul-de-sac had to be created. That road may not have been repaired for 20 years. The people on that road pay very high rates and rent. I do not know whether the Minister will give consideration to their case or whether he can do it under the Local Government Acts but, definitely, these people have a genuine grievance. The Minister received a deputation from Mayo County Council who asked for a certain percentage from the local authority to help with a rural improvement scheme. The Minister told us, honestly, that that cannot be done under the law as it exists. A great deal of improvement must be made before by-roads and culs-de-sac can come up to anything like a suitable standard. It is better to live in hope than die in despair, but, definitely, something will have to be done about it.

Another matter that caused a great deal of discussion is social services. I maintain that the more social services there are of the kind that necessitate the voting of money for free boots, free milk, free clothing, et cetera, the surer sign it is that the Government are allowing the country to become decadent and desolate. Ireland has the tradition that its men are willing to work and do not want anything free. Nobody should get a single thing free who could be provided with work at wages which would allow him to buy the goods that he requires. There are people who are not fit or able to work. It is the duty of the Government to look after these people, but there are thousands of people who would gladly work, if they could get work, but who are given social services of one form and another and have been brought down to a degree of decadence that was quite common, years ago, when we had in power a Government whose policy it was to degrade the Irish people with bounties and doles. It is no credit, I maintain, to any Government, to have to expend money on social services such as these. It is an entirely different matter to provide social services in the form of old age pensions, blind pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions. These will be dealt with on another Vote and I shall not say anything about them now. These things are necessary and the citizens are entitled to them. But, I repeat, it is nothing of which any man or any Government can boast that we spend so much money on social services of the other type I have mentioned..

Another question that has created a good deal of comment is the managerial system. I have been a member of a county council since last June. At the first meeting to which I was summoned, I was issued with a circular pointing out the powers we had. We were told that we had almost as much power as we had before the managerial system was inaugurated. I found that things were entirely different.

We had plenty of power if we were in full agreement with everything that was laid down by the county manager or engineer, as the case may be, but if the council decided to make certain alterations in any matter the manager had to be informed and he, in turn, had to get in touch with the Minister or the Department, until we found that the circular was an absolute humbug, that there was no democracy as far as local government administration was concerned. We see from the Local Government Bill that if a local body decide that a proposed rate is too high and refuse to strike the rate on the ground that the people cannot afford it, and if they decide to strike a lower rate, they must submit it to the county manager to be submitted to the Minister and his Department. What is the position then? The Minister can decide the rate that is to be struck, if he considers that the proposed rate is not sufficient to meet the needs of the county. I want to know whether it is the local authority or the Minister who might be expected to have the most intimate knowledge of local conditions. If we have local bodies, they should be let severely alone, perhaps checked or reprimanded occasionally, but certainly not coerced. It may happen that a county council will always be in full agreement with the manager or the Minister but it may be the other way around. Time will tell what the consequences will be. I do not see why we want county managers when we have done without them for over 40 years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now criticising legislation. That is not permitted. You cannot change legislation on Estimates. It is administration, not the Act, that can be discussed.

Mr. Commons

Thank you, Sir. I do not want to go outside the scope of the debate. County managers, by close co-operation with the county councils, can do a very good job of work. The fact of their being there has necessitated salaries of £1,000, and that is what I would be up against. I can assure the Minister it is a system that is not popular in any county, even among members of his own Party. I hope that system will be altered in the near future.

The Minister talked about infant mortality. He said it was high and that some effort would have to be made to get it under control. He may rest assured he will have every support in this House when he tackles health problems. It would be foolish policy for any Opposition to criticise him when he decides to look after the welfare of the children. He said it was not the policy of the Government to let children die, and that doctors and hospitals would be provided for them. It was not the policy of his predecessors to let the children die, nor will it be the policy of his successors.

There is another aspect to this matter. When the children grow up to manhood and womanhood, it is to be hoped they will not be forced to emigrate. When children are brought up in perfect health to manhood and womanhood it is one of the saddest things, one which any Government should be ashamed of, to see them packing their bags and moving to other countries to get a livelihood for themselves and to provide for those they leave at home. That will have to stop.

In connection with town planning, I might mention that recently in Claremorris a plot was allotted for a graveyard. It was inspected by the county engineer. I suggest that the site selected is not a suitable one. It is at the back of a group of county council cottages, just at the end of their gardens. I should like the Minister to see if it is possible to get a more suitable site. There is land available in the locality and it should be easy enough to select a more suitable place. The people in that locality think that some other site should be selected. I think that on examination the Minister will find that a more suitable site could be found.

Deputy Walsh devoted most of his remarks to this side of the House, to the members of this little Party. I have no doubt about his reasons for doing so. It is unfortunate for him that in the area from which we both come the tide of political opinion has swung in a very definite manner. I can assure him that there is no inclination for that tide to swing back. He talked about an anti-Government bloc of some sort making an effort to oust the Government. I wonder where he got that idea from? He must take a very serious view of the column that appeared in a certain newspaper not so very long ago. So far as we are concerned, it is not antagonism to the Government that put our Party into the field; it is because of rights which have been denied to the people, rights which the Fianna Fáil Administration forgot to give the people, that has brought such a change west of the Shannon.

The Minister said that certain criticism would be ill-informed criticism and gross misrepresentation— I think those were his exact words. He prepared himself at the outset by acting as a wise general who believes in the policy of attack being the best form of defence. The Minister went into the attack anticipating gross misrepresentation. I do not think we have been too harsh on him. Our policy is to represent the interests of our people and lay before the Minister the thoughts of the people politically opposed to him. That is my position as regards the majority of the people in my constituency.

I hope he will give serious consideration to the suggestions that have been put forward here and that local government will not much longer be tied up as it is; that a relaxation in various forms will be granted to local authorities and that they will be allowed to do what they were elected to do—that is, keep in close contact with the people and with the central authority so as ultimately to have the best administration in the interest of all the people.

Mr. McMenamin

The Minister, when he was introducing this Estimate, seemed to annoy a lot of people in the House and, of course, they assumed he was making a speech for the electors of Cork. I think that was a despicable allegation to make.

Mr. MacEntee

I do not think the Chair, by gesture or word, should give any sort of semblance of assent to that statement. I am entitled to present my Estimate to this House and, in advance, if I wish, to meet any arguments that are likely to be made. If the occupant of the Chair did not nod his head in assent to Deputy McMenamin's statement, then I most humbly apologise to the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is quite mistaken. The Chair was nodding to Deputy McMenamin, indicating that he was entitled to intervene.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy was on his feet for some minutes.

Mr. McMenamin

Perhaps we are reaching the stage in this country when we will find that we have not the right to get up to speak here at all. Perhaps we may be told that. However, that time has not arrived yet. If there is any challenge of that type it will be met as other challenges have been met in this country. There is no doubt about that. If the Minister was not referring to Cork, it was obvious that he was anxious to do a bit of white-washing of his Department. That was badly needed.

Of course his predecessors did nothing for this country! The Minister wanted to give the impression to the House that they never spent a penny on building. I do not want to go into that aspect of the matter. Inquests do not bring dead men to life, and I think the least said about the past the better. I am more concerned about the present and the future, with 1946, 1947 and 1948. I have no time at all for the many unhappy and unpleasant things that occurred in this country. The Minister has not told the House how many houses are going to be built this year or how many houses are going to be built the year after.

Mr. MacEntee

All that was told to the Deputy but he did not hear it.

Mr. McMenamin

Anybody listening to the Minister for Industry and Commerce speaking on his Vote, heard him say that 15,000 standards of timber were going to be imported during the course of the next year, whilst the normal pre-war consumption was 37,000 standards. I want to know on behalf of the people how many houses are going to be built not on paper but built on the ground this year, making allowance for the priority that will have to be given to the building of churches and factories. What the people want to know is how many houses can be built with the 15,000 standards of timber which the Minister for Industry and Commerce said we would import for the coming year. We had a unique opportunity in this country whilst we were undisturbed by war and suffered little from its reactions, to make arrangements for the post-war period and to ensure that our plans could be immediately put into operation when the emergency ended. How long are these plans going to remain merely on paper? Will the Minister tell the House, so far as this major issue is concerned, that such an amount of timber will be available as will enable a full-blown scheme of house building to proceed, now that the emergency has passed?

In this connection, no reference has been made to the opportunities to be afforded private builders to undertake schemes on their own account. Those who have observed what has been taking place in a neighbouring country will remember that an attempt was made to stifle private builders there but the attempt was not successful. Some efforts should be made in this country to enable private builders to start operations again. References were made to what occurred here in 1931. Anybody conversant with that period will recall that the private builders of this State alone erected houses to the value of £6,000,000. What opportunities or what inducement will be offered to private builders this year or next year to collaborate and contribute their technical knowledge, their equipment and their skilled organisation to assist the Minister in solving the housing problem in this country? Is there some reaction against these men notwithstanding their technical knowledge, the capital they possess and the capital they command? Are they not going to be called in to the assistance of the State to solve this major problem? We want to employ every ounce of the resources we possess in this State if we are going to solve this problem in any reasonable period.

Closely associated with the question of housing is the question of town planning. The first thing to plan is the individual house. Comments have been made here as to the design, external and internal, of houses which it is proposed to build. I think a new housing programme should be drawn up before these schemes develop so that these houses will have all the facilities that modern science can devise to help housewives and the people who will occupy these houses. Every labour-saving device, every method which architects have devised to save room, should be incorporated in these houses so that the maximum space will be available for the occupiers. Deputy Pattison has referred to the desirability of having wardrobes built into the walls. A device of that kind would achieve two very important things. Firstly it would save space and secondly it would save working-class people the cost of furniture. Otherwise they may have to buy furniture or procure it on the hire-purchase system and thereby mortgage their future. Every effort should be made to ensure that the maximum space will be available for the accommodation of families and to ensure that there will be no undue waste on stairs, landings, etc.

With regard to town planning, it is a distressing sight to see a number of houses strung along a road without any beauty or design about them. For the past 10 or 15 years there has been continuous criticism of ribbon building in these islands. From what I have seen, England is just as bad in that respect, but in spite of protests they have continued just as we have here with this ribbon building. One sees local authorities building a string of 20 houses on one side of the road. They look derelict and deserted without any beauty of design about them.

I think we should have passed away from all that. We are supposed to be an artistic people and surely we should be capable of conceiving a more pleasing design for our building schemes. There should be something about a house to make it more attractive than a conglomeration of mere bricks and slates. Some effort should be made to secure the very best designs for these houses, so that we shall have buildings with some approach to beauty of outline, buildings which will add something to the scenic amenities of the country and that are not going to be absolute eyesores 20 or 30 years from now.

I should like to make some brief reference to hospitals and hospitalisation. Some ten or 12 years ago I was shown in my native county a beautiful model for a county hospital. It was a wooden model from which you could remove the roof and examine every floor right down to the bottom. The model ultimately disappeared, the hospital has not yet appeared and no one has the least idea when it will be built. There is of course need for accommodation for ordinary medical cases but what is really tragic in this country is the position with regard to sanatorium accommodation. Efforts are sometimes made to provide accommodation for tuberculosis patients by adding a wing to an old workhouse.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. Tuesday, 18th June, 1946.

Dáil Éireann debate - Friday, 14 Jun 1946

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health (Resumed).

Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 14 Jun 1946