Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Jun 1946

Vol. 101 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 72—Alleviation of Distress.

The Taoiseach

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £1,750,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1947, for the Alleviation of Distress in Europe due to War.

Last July the Dáil voted a sum of £3,000,000 to cover the cost of sending food and other supplies to European countries to alleviate distress caused by war. The present Vote is required to enable this effort to be continued during the present financial year. Perhaps I can best introduce this new Vote by giving the Dáil some account of what has already been done under the Vote passed last year.

Mr. Dillon

How much did the Taoiseach say the Vote was for?

The Taoiseach

£1,750,000 now. That is to complete the sum of £3,000,000.

Mr. Dillon

Is not the sum in the Estimate £3,000,000?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There was a Vote on Account, the Deputy may be forgetting.

Mr. Dillon

On account of this Estimate?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is the balance—and that applies to every Vote we are discussing.

Mr. Dillon

Thank you. Nobody else knew that but the mover thereof.

The Taoiseach

We have been carrying on for a number of years knowing it.

The supplies made available last year consisted of specified quantities of some 13 different categories of goods. They included 20,000 head of cattle, 1,500 horses, 10,000,000 lb. of canned meat, 20,000 cwt. of butter, 16,000 cwt. of bacon, 10,000 tons of sugar, and 100,000 blankets. There were smaller quantities of cheese, infant foods and condensed and dried milk, as well as a variety of woollen textiles—200,000 knitted undergarments for children, 50,000 lb. of knitting wool, and so on.

We made a public offer of these supplies, making it clear that they were available as a gift from the Irish people to the peoples of the Continent who had suffered from the war. As I told the Dáil when I was moving last year's Vote, the offer was accepted by the Governments of Holland, Belgium, France and Italy. Each of these countries had recently been the scene of active hostilities; their peoples had suffered the loss and destruction which invasion and war bring in their train, and, being, on the whole, conveniently situated in regard to this country, the problem of transport—which at that time appeared the major obstacle in any effective aid from this country to the Continent—was not without hope of solution in their case. Accordingly, one-fifth of the total supplies available was allotted to each of the four countries named—Holland, Belgium, France and Italy. The remaining one-fifth was allotted later in the year to the Joint Relief Commission of the International Red Cross for distribution according to need in other parts of Europe.

As I said, it was made clear that these supplies to Europe were being offered as a gift. Holland, Italy and the International Red Cross accepted their allocations on that basis. The Belgium Government intimated its desire to pay for the supplies sent to Belgium, and the French Government, while accepting as a gift the supplies sent to and distributed by private charitable organisations in France, expressed its desire to pay for the goods received and distributed by French Government Departments.

Deputies will notice that, although the supplies included in last year's Vote were allocated and accepted in the manner I have described, the present Estimate includes a Re-Vote of an unexpended balance of last year's provision amounting to £1,552,000. This unspent balance is almost entirely attributable to two main factors. In the first place, for transport and other reasons, Italy and the International Red Cross were unable to take advantage of their allocation of live stock, and, although 14,664 cattle and 2,026 horses were shipped to the three countries, Holland, Belgium and France, some of these were purchased direct and paid for by the Governments concerned. These together resulted in a reduction of £650,000 in the estimated expenditure. Secondly, in spite of every effort it proved impossible to obtain the tins and other packing materials necessary for the dispatch of the 10,000,000 lb. of canned meat included in last year's gift. It is a great pity that this difficulty should have been met because, as we have been told from many quarters, and as is indeed obvious, this canned meat would have been a very useful and valuable form of relief supply. The non-dispatch of the canned meat, however, resulted in a further reduction of £750,000 in the expenditure originally proposed.

With these exceptions, however, practically all the supplies made available last year were successfully shipped and distributed. Of the total provision of 20,000 cattle and 1,500 horses, there were shipped, as I have said, 14,664 cattle and 2,026 horses. The provision of 20,000 cwt. of butter, 10,000 tons of sugar, 100,000 blankets and 5,000 dozen pairs of woollen gloves was shipped in full. Some of the quotas were actually exceeded. Eight hundred and five tons of cheese were shipped as against the quota of 800 tons, 60 tons of dried milk against the quota of 50 tons, and 700 tons of condensed milk against the quota of 250 tons. Shipments fell short of the quotas in the case of woollen socks, knitted undergarments, baby foods and stoves and cookers. Seventeen thousand two hundred dozen pairs of socks were shipped against the quota of 20,000 dozen pairs; 14,760 dozen knitted undergarments against a quota of 16,000 dozen; 40 tons of infant foods against a quota of 50 tons; and 340 stoves and cookers out of the 500 which had been earmarked. The French shares of the quotas of 250 tons of cheese and 50,000 lb. of knitting wool had yet to be shipped at the end of the financial year. Otherwise, those quotas were shipped in full. In order to complete this picture of what was sent out last year under the Vote, I might say that, in addition to the supplies I have mentioned, foodstuffs and medical and other supplies to the value of £36,000 were provided for the Irish hospital at St. Lo in France.

I do not think the Dáil need have any doubt that these supplies have been sincerely appreciated by the people who received them and that they have been of real and substantial value in relieving distress and suffering. If proof of that were required, it would be found in the many thousands of letters which have been received from people in the areas in which the supplies were distributed. Great progress towards national recovery has been made in the countries of Western Europe during the past 12 months. Conditions in these countries are already very different from what they were a year ago when our offer was made and the first supplies shipped. It is satisfactory to think, however, that the food and other supplies sent from this country arrived at a time when they were really needed and that, in their way, they helped to relieve the distress of the transition period.

I said just now that one-fifth of the relief supplies made available last year was allocated to the Joint Relief Commission of the International Red Cross. These supplies were sent to the French port of Bayonne in Irish vessels; from Bayonne they went by rail to Switzerland, and from Switzerland they were distributed through the machinery of the Joint Relief Commission, to nine different European countries—Austria, Czechoslovakia, Albania, Germany, Hungary, Northern Italy, Poland, Rumania and Yugoslavia. The allocation of the supplies as between these different areas was made on the principle of relative need, due account being taken of transport possibilities and other material factors; and, in each case, the supplies were distributed in accordance with a definite scheme of distribution worked out by the Joint Relief Commission in agreement with the local authorities. Young children, nursing and expectant mothers, maternity hospitals and sanatoria for tubercular patients received particular attention, and the supplies of sugar, dried and condensed milk and butter were found of particular value, especially in the case of children.

I shall not take up the time of the Dáil now by trying to give an account of the difficulties which the Joint Relief Commission had to surmount to arrange the transport and distribution of the supplies in these areas of war-torn Europe and of the effect of the arrival of these consignments of food on the local populations. The reports I have received from the International Red Cross on these matters leave a deep and lasting impression on anyone who reads them, and I am considering whether the whole subject might not properly be made the subject of a White Paper.

I should like to take this opportunity, however, of paying a tribute to the work which the Joint Relief Commission of the International Red Cross has done on our behalf. When they accepted responsibility for the distribution of Irish relief supplies in the parts of Europe I have mentioned, the commission undertook a formidable task. There was not only the problem of arranging transport from Switzerland to the areas concerned. The relative needs of different areas had to be examined and assessed; the permission of local occupying authorities had to be obtained; schemes of distribution had to be worked out with the authorities of the countries concerned and measures for supervising the actual distribution arrangements had to be made.

All this work the commission has performed with the greatest efficiency and despatch. We ourselves could have done very little without their aid. We are very much cut off from many of the countries of Central and Eastern Europe and have no means of obtaining that accurate and up-to-date information regarding local needs, means of transport, local organisation, and so on, upon which any efficient scheme of relief work must be based. The co-operation which the Joint Relief Commission extended to us in connection with the distribution of last year's supplies in Central and Eastern Europe will continue to be available in connection with any supplies we may have to send to those areas in the present year. As I shall explain in a moment, we hope to take extensive advantage of this co-operation in connection with this year's programme.

The further sum of £3,000,000 which the Dáil is now being asked to provide is required to cover the cost of sending the following relief supplies to Europe-during the current financial year:— 20,000 cattle; 5,000 draught horses; 10,000 tons of sugar; 2,400 tons of bacon; 9,000,000 lb. of canned meat; 300 tons of dried and condensed milk; 250 tons of cheese; 25,000 lb. of wool; 185,000 blankets, as well as a large quantity of supplies made available by the Army—clothing textiles, bedding material and kitchenware to a total value of about £163,000.

Before coming to the question of the allocation of these supplies, I might say something about the need for relief of this kind on the Continent at the present time. There have been many reports in the Press in recent months about the threat of starvation in Europe. From the information at my disposal, I am satisfied that these reports do not exaggerate the general picture. Although things in Western Europe have greatly improved, there are still many people in those countries living below what is regarded as the necessary nutritional level. But it is between the Rhine and the Russian frontier that the real problem exists. There, as Mr. Hoover put it in his speech at the recent Food Conference in London, "hunger sits at the table thrice daily in millions of homes".

It is almost impossible for us living in this country to realise the extent of the misery and suffering to which whole populations in that part of Europe are reduced. Infantile mortality rates in many European cities have reached hitherto unheard of proportions. The particulars given with regard to the prevalence of tuberculosis, rickets, anæmia and other deficiency diseases make a truly appalling picture—more appalling for its reminder that, in circumstances of this kind, it is the mothers and the young and growing children who are the worst and the earliest sufferers. The extreme destitution in some areas reflects itself in acute shortages of clothing and the most ordinary necessaries of life. I have had reliable reports stating that, in some rural areas, people are forced to work in the fields at night for lack of clothing to cover them during the day, and I recently received an appeal on behalf of over 3,000 school and university students in a famous capital city in Central Europe who are unable to attend their classes for lack of clothing. Much of this is already a matter of common knowledge, so it is hardly necessary for me to go into further detail. I will only say that, in Central and Eastern Europe particularly, there is a problem of human subsistence and of human suffering so vast that even the utmost which we, with our limited resources, can do, can be no more than a very small help towards its solution, but that, even so, every single article of food and clothing which we can send will be of real and immediate value in relieving suffering, if not indeed in saving human life itself.

Coming, therefore, to the allocation of the supplies to be made available this year, it is proposed, as before, to proceed on the principle of greatest need, due account being taken of practical factors such as the availability of means of transport. Leaving aside the live stock and the surplus Army clothing, bedding-material and household ware, which I will refer to in a moment, it is proposed to allocate 75 per cent. of the available supplies for distribution in Central and Eastern Europe through the intermediary of the Joint Relief Commission of the International Red Cross. Of the remainder, it is proposed to allocate 15 per cent. to Italy and 10 per cent. to the Entr Aide Francaise, the French charitable organisation through which a considerable part of the supplies sent to France last year was distributed. Bearing in mind the extreme destitution and the shortage of clothing in parts of Central and Eastern Europe, a thorough review has been made of existing Army and Post Office stocks, and, as a result, it has been found possible to get together a substantial quantity of surplus or obsolete stores of a kind likely to be found useful. This includes some 30,000 greatcoats; 20,000 men's suits; some 60,000 yards of serge, shirting and other materials; 25,000 waterproof capes; 20,000 mattresses; 17,000 towels; over 100,000 other articles of wearing apparel, and a large collection of delph, cutlery and other household ware. It is proposed to allocate these supplies to the Joint Relief Commission, who have already worked out a scheme of distribution for these supplies and the 75 per cent. share of the other supplies which is to be placed at their disposal. Distribution will be effected, according to need, in Albania, Austria, Bulgaria, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Poland, Rumania and Yugoslavia.

As regards live stock, a somewhat different method must be followed because, as I said earlier, the International Red Cross are not in a position to handle the transport and distribution of cattle. Still proceeding on the principle of greatest need and bearing in mind the deficiency of proteins and fats in the countries concerned, it is proposed to offer 2,000 head of cattle for slaughter as a gift to each of the countries, Poland, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Austria, Czechoslovakia and the British and American zones in Germany. Transport is apt to be a great difficulty in the case of some of these countries, but we can only make these offer and hope that means of overcoming the transport difficulties involved will be found.

As Deputies know, a serious threat to Europe's bread supplies has developed within recent months. We must do our share in helping to avert that threat. We were represented at the conference called to consider this matter in London early in April, and, since then, steps have been taken here to give effect to the conference recommendations. We took the initiative in raising our extraction rate to 90 per cent. The war-time restriction on the serving of bread with restaurant meals has been reintroduced. We agreed to carry on with the minimum of carryover stocks until the new harvest is available. By virtue of these measures, we were able to agree to do without imports of foreign wheat until the end of July, provided we could be assured that the 30,000 tons required to carry us over into the new harvest would be made available in August.

If our contribution in the present situation is to be the maximum of which we are capable—and I think we all feel it should be—the co-operation of every individual man, woman and child in the country is required. In the first place, we must scrupulously avoid all waste of food, and try, if we can, to eat less bread. It has been calculated that a reduction of 5,000 sacks of flour in our present weekly consumption of over 60,000 sacks would provide a bread ration for 325,000 people on the Continent. I suppose at least one heel of a loaf is wasted in every household each day. This means about 400,000 lb. of bread a week, enough to provide a bread ration for 70,000 people in Europe. If each of us ate a slice of bread less each day, it would give us 1,700,000 lb. of bread a week, or a bread ration for 300,000 people in Europe. The immediate task is to bring the purpose and urgency of this appeal home to everyone in the country. Everyone can help in this work. The appeal is being advertised in the Press and broadcast at frequent intervals from Radio Eireann. Private organisations can help by enlisting the support of their members, and business concerns by publicising the appeal in their advertising space. If everyone lends a hand in this way to help this anti-waste crusade, we can make a further and effective contribution to the relief provided for in this Vote. I think I have given a fair picture of the situation and I hope to be able to answer any questions on which Deputies may require information.

Mr. Dillon

I think it is reasonable to assume that every Deputy in this House cordially approves the most energetic measures of which our Government is capable in co-operation with the rest of the world, to relieve the distress of our fellow-men throughout the Continent of Europe, but I think the time has come to speak plainly on what those measures should be if they are to be the most effective that our country with its limited resources can employ. As the Taoiseach has said, 12 months ago the situation in Europe was even worse than it is to-day. It is a source, I have no doubt, of satisfaction and relief to everyone in this country to know that the people of Holland, the people of Belgium and the people of Denmark have made such splendid progress towards the restoration of some degree of modest efficiency for the nutrition of their own people. In regard to some other parts of the Continent of Europe, I have heard from various sources disquieting reports that while there continues an acute food shortage in large municipal centres, there is comparative abundance in the rural areas and that, in fact, the situation is that the agricultural communities of certain countries in Europe have made up their minds that they are not going to feed their own cities at the fixed prices which the municipalities are prepared to pay for the produce which these agricultural communities have to dispose of. I remember one friend of mine whom I recently met in London on return from his post in a rural area on the Continent telling me that while in the neighbouring city an acute shortage existed, a regular traffic obtained amongst racketeers who left that city every morning by bicycle, who purchased, in this particular case, chickens at approximately 10 times the price which the municipality had fixed for that variety of produce, who cycled back into the city, sold them on the black market at a profit and returned the following morning to the countryside to repeat the operation.

The attitude generally in that rural area was: Why should farmers carry their produce to the city and sell it at inadequately controlled prices when, by sitting at home, they could get people to come out of their houses, and purchase it at ten times the price they would get if they conveyed it themselves? If that picture is true I begin to wonder are we helping in the most effective way we can by sending food into these cities when people in the neighbourhood of these cities will not send in food? I have heard from a friend who recently visited the Continent that in certain Continental cities they were able to eat in fashionable restaurants more luxuriously than, or, as luxuriously as, they were ever able to eat, if they were prepared to pay for it. I recognise how great the problem may be to administer supplies in these countries. I recognise that on occasions it may be extremely difficult to bring the black market under effective control, but I cannot see that our most effective method for helping hungry people is by sending such exiguous supplies as we can dispose of into the vortex of that black market, directly or indirectly to be sold at black market prices to wealthy tourists who can afford to pay for them.

I recognise that what I am saying now is open to misconstruction in certain quarters. Nevertheless, that type of information has reached me from so many people concerned, that we cannot but believe that where there is so much smoke there must be some fire. I, therefore, suggest to the Government that we are not adopting the most effective method of relieving the suffering people of Europe by the methods we are at present employing. It may get us some nice publicity as being a very Christian people. It may win us pious resolutions from certain Continental countries of gratitude for our magnificent gesture, but I take it we are not engaged in this business for gratitude. I take it that in sending these supplies we are not looking for vacuous praise.

We are trying on the very small scale of which we are capable, to help fellow-men as we would wish them to help us if we were in a similar case, and as we remember they did help us in the days of long ago. With that then in view, I want to suggest to the Government that we should send no more stuff to Europe in the way of foodstuffs. Let me emphasise again how small is the volume of stuff that we can send to Europe, as compared to the need that exists, particularly in that part of Europe referred to by the Taoiseach, from the Rhine to the Russian border, but that we should say to Europe that we would take their children, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or any other religion that they may be, and that we make no apology for naming their categories in terms of religion, because, being a Catholic nation, we take them in the full realisation that our duty to them will not end with feeding them, clothing them, but that we will take precautions, in so far as we can, to ensure that our Jewish fellow countrymen will look after the spiritual needs of such Jewish children, that our Protestant countrymen will concern themselves with the spiritual needs of Protestants and that our Catholic majority will look after the welfare of such Catholic children as are entrusted to our care.

We spend £3,000,000 a year sending food and requisites to Europe. I reckon that we could maintain a child in this country for £100 per annum, and I would like to think that we could find housing and shelter for that. If that were so, £3,000,000 would provide for at least 20,000 children, and if we could take off the hands of those struggling with adversity at the present time, the piteous burden of undernourished children, and leave parents thus relieved free to struggle for the maintenance of their own existence, comforted by the knowledge that their children are, at least, safe, that, I think, would be a material contribution to the relief of suffering Europe.

I detest these associations that have grown up in this country for the relief of German children, for the relief of French children, for the relief of Greek children, and for the relief of YugoSlav children. I do not care whence they come, whether they be German, French, Polish, Russian, Greek or YugoSlav children. If they are suffering and in need, I think our people would be ready to receive them, and to send them back when their parents are prepared to keep them, as well tended as lay within our power, and as closely analogous to the standard of their parents as possible.

That would be a much more difficult contribution to the relief of Europe than we are at present making. It would mean inconvenience, personal inconvenience for those who in this country undertook to share the burden. But I think an ounce of personal effort of that kind is of more value than all the money we could send. Three million pounds may sound a lot of money, but when all is said and done, it does not cost us very much to send £10,000 to Europe. It means that we have got to do with 1 oz, or 2 ozs. of tea in the week, but apart from that no citizen feels the pinch in any way. It would be a real effort if we had to take the children in.

I remember, in the days when the Nazi terror first started to oppress the Jewish people of Austria and Germany, I was vicariously interested in attending to certain refugees who managed to escape from that detestable tyranny. I do not want the house to imagine that I made any material contribution, for I did not, but others close to me did. It meant effort; it meant work; it meant discouragement very often; but it was worth doing, and, because it was done on a voluntary scale, it had, of course, to be on a very small scale. When that work was done, however, at least one had the feeling that every effort put into it had been well spent and that those for whom the work was done had derived, or could have derived, some benefit from it, if they chose to collaborate, as the vast majority did. I feel that we could do a useful work if, at the end of our exertions, we returned 30,000, 20,000 or even 10,000 children to Europe who were not crippled in body or twisted in mind.

I think we would have given a superb example to the world of what Catholic government means in religious tolerance by the reception into this country of Jewish children, Protestant children and Catholic children and of showing that we understood what religious toleration means, that is, that those in good faith confined to our care shall not have their untutored minds trespassed upon by Catholics who recognise the right of parents to answer to God not only for the material but for the spiritual welfare of the children entrusted by Him to their care. There are other countries which would do as much but there are certain countries, and were such children entrusted to their care, they would leave that care vastly changed from the condition in which they were handed over by their parents for temporary custody. We, I think, could honestly boast that those for whom we became responsible would go back as they came to us, untouched in anything but the restoration of their strength and vigour and health, safe and in the same condition as that in which they were entrusted to us by the parents who trusted us with the most precious thing they had.

If that case be valid, I want to say something which Deputies are inclined to forget. We talk a lot here in Ireland about starvation in Europe and the burden of trial and tribulation which Europe is carrying at present, but I have never heard anybody in this House yet talk of the hunger in England. Our best customers for the last hundred years have been the British people. I do not know how many Deputies have recently been in England—a good many of us have—but I think that calm observation of the situation in England must bring home to the mind of any unprejudiced observer the fact that, though the British may have a certain bulk of food, the quality which they have consented to put up with, in order that they may better contribute to the relief of those worse off on the Continent of Europe, is appalling, and while it is true to say that nobody in England appears to be hungry or emaciated, it is also true to say that the want of certain types of food has induced in the British people a degree of exhaustion and tiredness that must stir the sympathy of anybody who admires the efforts of a valiant people in face of great peril.

Apart from the fact that they have borne the heat and the burden of the day for six long years, for a great part of it alone, they are our closest neighbours and have been our best customers. Is it not nearly time, when we are protesting our solicitude for the Yugo-Slavs, for the Hungarians, for the Austrians, for the Greeks, for the Germans and for the French, that we should make some gesture to indicate that we appreciate the measure of suffering with which the British people have had to contend and should give some indication of our readiness to exert ourselves for the relief of that suffering, in so far as within us lies?

What the British lack at present, above everything else, are the protective foods which we are peculiarly qualified to produce. They require eggs, and butter and milk products, and they require them urgently and acutely. What we can do perhaps in the sphere of butter and milk products for the vast population of that island is too small to bother about, but it would be a worth-while gesture if we could make a real effort to send them eggs in greater quantity than we have done heretofore, if we could select some section of that people who most need it and offer to our ancient enemies a gift in the same spirit as that in which we offered it to the nations of Europe during the year which has passed by. There may be those amongst us who think that what we have to offer would be so small as to excite ridicule. I would prefer to remember the spirit of that immortal story Les Jongleurs de Notre Dame and rest content that, providing we were doing our best, he would be a poor recipient indeed who would despise it as inadequate. In any case, so long as we were doing our best and giving of what we have to give, it would not matter what they thought, so long as we knew the reasons for which we offered it and so long as we knew that it was the best we had to offer.

During my short sojourn in England recently, I could find no evidence of any large-scale disappearance of the restricted foods into the black market, and I was much struck one night, on being brought to dinner at one of the most fashionable restaurants in London by a wealthy friend—a restaurant to which I could not have afforded to go —by the fact that not a single item in that extremely expensive restaurant, where fantastic prices were charged, was a controlled item. It did not seem that, whatever price you paid or bid, you could get in that restaurant a black-market product. The luxury of its fare was built up on the provision of such things as fowl and game, which are fantastically expensive, but which, note well, are bought at great prices, but not stolen, from neighbours who are left short of what they ought to have when black-marketeers misappropriate rations and sell them at black-market prices. There is that infinitely important distinction between the provision of luxury foodstuffs, which would not in any case become available to the markets of the people, on the one hand, and the diminution of the people's supply of such foodstuffs as butter and milk and so forth in order to divert it on to the tables of those who are rich enough to pay illegal and prohibitive prices for such comestibles.

There are two other matters, which do not come strictly within the meaning of the class of relief which the Government has in mind, but which are worthy of consideration—one, from the point of view of helping people who are in distress, and the other from the point of view of economising in foodstuffs here at home. I think it is common experience in this country at the present time that it is practically impossible to find girls who desire to enter domestic service. That is no reflection on the girls. If they do not want to enter domestic service that is their own business; they prefer other types of employment. But I imagine that there are in Bavaria, in Austria, and in other parts of the Continent of Europe considerable numbers of young women who would very gladly avail of the opportunity of taking positions as domestic servants here—firstly, to secure a livelihood for themselves and, secondly, to earn the wherewithal to send help to those who depend upon them at home. I should be interested to learn from the Minister for External Affairs whether he has considered the propriety and the desirability of examining with other Governments the question as to whether, if we were prepared to offer employment to a certain limited number of young women of that class, a scheme could be worked out which would be satisfactory to our Government and, at the same time, provide the Governments of these other countries with the assurances that they would naturally require to ensure that their nationals would be justly and equitably treated in the event of their seeking employment in our homes.

The last detail to which I wish to refer and to which I recommend the very special attention of the Taoiseach, in order to press home the campaign to save wheat—and I speak now as a practical baker of 20 years' experience —is that the most effective way to save wheat and bread in this country at the present time would be to reduce the standard size of the 2 lb. loaf by one-sixth and its price by one penny. At present every housewife goes into a baker's shop and she buys a 2 lb. loaf. If they bought a loaf which weighed in fact a pound and three-quarters the exterior difference would be very slight, but a family that ordinarily consumes two loaves of 2 lb. each and throws away the heel would find two loaves weighing 1¾ lb. each would not go round if they threw away the heel; and, according to how the family was run, in some instances the husband would have to eat the heel and in others the wife—but somebody would eat the heel. As a baker of 20 years' experience, I can assure the Taoiseach —I do not know what his experience has been in the past with regard to the heel—that the heel is as nutritious and as excellent a part of the loaf as any other part. In view of the circumstances that obtain throughout the Continent of Europe it would be a choosy citizen, indeed, who would go on hunger strike in Ireland rather than eat the heel. It would be an utterly unreasonable citizen, I can assure you, who would go on hunger strike rather than eat the heel of the loaf that I bake. As regards the loaf that other people bake, if their heels are not, satisfactory the remedy is to reform the baker rather than waste the bread. That is a practical contribution which, I think, would surprise those unfamiliar with the trade by the resultant measure of economy in the consumption of bread and wheat. It is one of these simple expedients that "larned" men rarely think of because their minds turn rather to rationing and other measures like that.

One final observation—I note that in some of our neighbouring countries rationing of bread is to be the order of the day. I have not the slightest doubt that if an operation of the character I envisage were carried to sufficiently drastic lengths, where the necessity existed, the rationing of bread would become unnecessary. When I hear talk of the rationing of bread my mind goes back to the very trenchant observations of a gentleman called Braunstein, who died alias "Trotsky", at the hands of his own comrade, who shall be nameless in view of the fact that Trotsky died from a wallop on the head with a hammer. But Braunstein, before he died, wrote this: "Bread tickets are the natural order of dictatorship because, if you can once persuade a free people to accept the principle that only those who work will get bread it is a very short step to the acceptance of the doctrine that only those who obey will eat."

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is somewhat away from the Vote now.

Mr. Dillon

Rather than save bread by rationing——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no rationing now.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister spoke of the possibility of rationing bread because of supplies of wheat. That has to be provided for.

An Ceann Comhairle

It can be discussed if and when it does arise.

Mr. Dillon

Surely we can make a contribution to the wheat of the world by reducing our own consumption. In our efforts to reduce it I ask the Deputies of this House never to suffer themselves to be reconciled to a proposal to ration bread, but rather to resort to the device which I adumbrate. It is a safe, a prudent, and an effective device to reduce the consumption of bread or wheat in any community. The other may be a gateway to a detestable tyranny. I would be happy to think that, as a result of this, instead of declaring tonnages and millions of money, it would be given to Ireland to issue an invitation to the depressed peoples of Europe: "Send us your children and we will look after them as you would wish to have them cared for." It may not earn so many encomiums for us; but I think, when history came to tell the story, it would have it to tell that Ireland made the best contribution, and that most carefully designed to do what most urgently requires to be done in the circumstances of our day.

Mr. Norton

I do not want to say anything which would in any way appear to cast a reflection on the very commendable efforts which are being made by this small country to help the starving peoples of Europe. Therefore I speak with some difficulty on a matter of this kind. The observations that I make are designed, not to impede the Government in its efforts but to suggest that there is need for a certain awareness in this matter and that we ought to make sure that our contribution, small though it be in relation to the needs of Europe, is not utilised in a manner contrary to the intentions of the nation which is donating these supplies for the relief of stricken humanity in Europe.

I have had an opportunity during the past 12 months of meeting many continental people. I have taken particular interest in ascertaining from them the situation in their particular countries and in neighbouring countries with which they had personal contacts. In that way I have been able to secure a fairly reliable picture of the conditions because the accounts I got were given in the secrecy of a conference room, without any attempt to propagandise the position from any standpoint whatsoever. The outstanding impression one gets about the food situation, generally, in these countries is that side by side with poverty there is a black market in which those who have the necessary money can get anything they want, that the supplies are available but that the difficulty experienced by the masses of the people in some of these countries is that they have not the financial coupons to purchase the commodities they require. It may be the case that even if all the available supplies were distributed on an equitable basis amongst the entire population, there would not be sufficient for all, but there is something radically wrong and inherently vicious in the situation that in countries to which this and other countries export food; a black market abounds on a scale that dwarfs anything of the kind that exists here.

I have had occasion to meet people from countries in Europe, in particular from one neutral country which has made a magnificent contribution of foodstuffs and household requisites to the needy peoples of Europe. This person, who had been closely identified with the problem for many years, who had made many visits to other countries, supervising the distribution of foodstuffs and other articles from his own country, told me that the necessity for care and caution in the distribution of these foodstuffs was such that his Government insisted on sending their representatives to prospect, to survey the requirements of the countries to which goods were being sent and to supervise their distribution. That was carried to such an extent that this particular official of a European Government went with a convoy of hundreds of lorries into other countries for the purpose of supervising distribution. He said that his experience was that otherwise you could not be sure that what was being given for the relief of starvation would not find its way into a profitable black market.

I have been told by people who have close contact with the situation that in some of the countries relief supplies have been used as currency and are being exchanged and traded for other commodities. I think that allegation has been made by many people who have close experience of these countries and have been privileged to make visits to them recently. Bearing in mind that our object is to make the maximum contribution possible within the limit of our resources, we should make sure that such supplies as we send will reach the homes of the neediest people and are not utilised for the purpose of facilitating the existence of black markets by providing the stock-in-trade for such black markets.

I had occasion recently to visit a continental country to which we made a substantial contribution in goods last year. I was perfectly amazed at the position which I found there. There was what might be described as a high-class black market, not just a rough-and-ready trading, but a well-recognised black market where you could get anything you wanted so long as you were able to pay for it. You might go into a London restaurant to-morrow and order chicken and ham but it would be a long time before you would get it, but you can go into the capital of the country to which I refer and get all the chicken and ham you require provided you were able to pay for it. You could walk from one end of London to the other and you would not see a chicken in a shop, while in the city to which I refer there are poultry shops stocked with chickens which you would not see in a shop in the City of Dublin. We were giving food to that country. You could go into a restaurant in that city and get more sugar in your tea than I have ever got in the restaurant of this House or any other restaurant in town. If you wanted butter, there was not the slightest difficulty in getting it. All you had to do was to pay, and once you pay everything is all right.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Traynor)

Is the country one of those that were purchasing goods from us? We would like to get that clear.

Mr. Norton

I understand that the Taoiseach said to-day that we offered a certain quantity of goods to about five countries. As a matter of fact, I made it my business to tell the Department about this when I came back. I am not saying this in any critical way.

Mr. Traynor

It would make a difference if it was one of the nations that was offering to pay.

Mr. Norton

It is one of the countries that got one-fifth of our stuff and one that, I understand, subsequently offered to purchase the commodities, but if we had them to spare I should prefer to see them allotted to Eastern Europe, where there is greater need, than that they should go to a country which, as far as I could see, ought to be able to give something to Eastern Europe. I do not want to see a situation of that kind continued and I say to the Taoiseach that the mere fact that it exists is evidence of the need for care and caution. With Deputy Dillon, I feel that the food position in Britain to-day is worse than it is in any country in Western Europe. I have had experience of it on a number of occasions recently. While you have a very fair chance of getting meat in some Western European countries, anyone who has had experience of the microscopic portion of meat that is served at a lunch or dinner in Britain will realise that Britain is very much worse off from the point of view of supplies than any country in Western Europe to-day. We cannot relieve the problem there. We could make a contribution, perhaps, which would be no more than a gesture, but we could make a gesture to that fairly good customer as easily as we have made it to other countries where it seems to me the need is not so great.

I am glad that the Taoiseach has intimated that this £3,000,000 worth of foodstuffs will be diverted to Eastern Europe. There is a number of countries in Eastern Europe where apparently the position is very bad notwithstanding the fact that elaborate black markets exist in those countries. That is my information on the matter and I think it is very reliable. We know that, as a result of the devastation that has been wrought in these countries, there must be acute suffering.

The Taoiseach knows well the sphere of influence under which these countries come. Many people with access to more information than we have, have said that there is an iron curtain in portions of Europe and whatever you send there you know little of its destination because it is extremely difficult to get information about what is happening east of a certain line in central Europe. That makes the need for care and inquiry all the greater.

With the goodwill of other countries, I suggest, some effort might be made by our people, either by means of a Parliamentary delegation or a delegation of officials from our Red Cross Organisation or from the Departments that are dealing with the situation, to ascertain the precise needs, as they will see them through a visit to some of these countries. Then the foodstuffs and other commodities can be delivered wherever it appears the need is greatest. I frequently think that when we hear things valued at a certain level in Europe we do not look on these things through the same eyes as the Europeans. I do not think we are trained to realise the standards of value that Europeans have. Certainly in the portion of Europe I visited recently I could not find any hungry Europeans. Some people who saw continental teams in sports fields in this country recently said: "If these are the products of starving Europe, then starving Europe cannot be such a bad place." The visiting teams left our people standing, so to speak.

In this matter there is need for caution and prudence. At the same time, you cannot look at the matter in the microscopic way in which the Civil Service machinery is used to dealing with problems of this kind. The British people have been sending delegations to every country in Europe. The British Government have been granting facilities, to members of Parliament to visit these countries. They have been granting facilities on a large scale to commercial people in Britain where there is any possibility of opening up business. The fact that it can be done, apparently with ease, by the British Government might induce us to inquire into the possibility of some kind of delegation visiting the stricken countries so that we will get a first-hand picture of the situation and so that the report of a delegation, concerned only with safeguarding Irish supplies and ensuring the best utilisation of these supplies in the interests of stricken humanity, will be the guide on which to base the allocation of these foodstuffs. It ought to be possible to do it.

I do not want to make the slightest reflection on the commendable efforts already made but, like the fisherman, one can fish all night and catch nothing, and so also one can distribute a lot of food and yet not reach the kernel of the European problem. One can see the best efforts thwarted by manipulators who have a special type of cunning for turning the intentions of well-meaning people to their own advantage. I suggest some consideration might be given to the question of seeing whether the position in these countries to which we propose to send these goods could not be examined on the spot by a delegation from this country and reliable reports obtained as to the best means of distributing whatever relief we have to give to stricken Europe.

Mr. Cogan

I am sure the House will be unanimous in supporting this grant of £3,000,000 for the relief of Europe. The speakers who have addressed the House have shown themselves to be well-informed in regard to matters on the European Continent. I cannot claim to be well-informed on such matters. I think the speeches to which we have listened should bring home to the Government the need for the utmost care in the distribution of food supplies and also the need for ensuring that whatever organisation undertakes to distribute those gifts, it will be efficient and effective. I think there is a justification for our Government, in view of the fact that this is a national contribution, taking whatever steps as are necessary to follow those supplies right to the tables and, I might almost say, to the months of those who urgently need them.

The only direct information which has come to me from the Continent has been sufficient to indicate that all the supplies which were sent to the Continent last year did not go astray. I had a letter a few months ago from a member of a religious community who is in charge of an institution for the aged and infirm and she mentioned that an allocation of sugar from this country reached her institution, although it is located in one of the most remote villages in France. The institution which derived that benefit is one which richly deserved it. It is an institution which takes care of the aged poor.

It might be considered by some people that supplies of sugar sent to the Continent should go to children or young people, but I think the aged also are deserving of consideration. This lady informed me that no words could express the gratitude of those people to our country for that gift. Small though it was, they appreciated it. There were many in that institution, she informed me, who were not aware of the existence of this country until they received this gift. I am not saying that to emphasise in any way that we should seek to make capital for our nation out of this Vote. That should not be the intention. It should be our intention to see that the food and clothing which we provide go to those in extreme need. For that reason we should make sure that there is an organisation behind the distribution of those supplies which will be effective in delivering the goods to those who require them.

I should like to say a few words on the suggestion which was made by Deputy Dillon, that instead of sending the food to Europe, we should bring European children here.

I think there is a good deal to be said in support of the suggestion that, as far as possible, needy children should be brought to this country, but in this matter as in the distribution of food it is not always the most needy who benefit. I am told that some of the European children who reached this country recently were not members of the poorest families in Europe. It may be that some of them had suffered severely from actual contact with the military operations, but certainly they were not members of the poorest families. I do not think that we should definitely confine ourselves to either one or other of the two courses suggested, that is sending food to Europe or, secondly, bringing European children here. I think there is a good deal to be said in favour of adopting both courses as far as it is humanly possible. It is desirable I think to send food to the Continent wherever we can ensure that it will reach the persons who need it. It is equally desirable to bring to this country European children when we can be sure that these are children who are in real need and who cannot be provided for in their own homes. By adopting both courses as far as is open to us, I think we shall be doing the maximum that it is within our power to do.

I should be glad also if the Taoiseach in replying would inform us as to the nature of the organisation which purchases those supplies for export. I should like to know what particular procedure is adopted in regard to the purchase of those supplies. As the Taoiseach did make a reference to the export of wool to the Continent, I should like to suggest to him that in purchasing wool from our producers here he will see that it will be purchased at a fair price. It is a good thing to be generous to others, but we must remember that the people who rear sheep to produce wool in this country are mostly people living on the poorest land. The price they are receiving for that product this year is a very inadequate one and in many cases will not be sufficient to enable them to purchase for themselves all the necessaries which they require for themselves and their families. I should like, therefore, if the Taoiseach would tell us how prices are arranged and what are the organisations set up for the purchase of those supplies.

I should like to endorse what has been said in regard to the urgent necessity for doing everything that is possible to increase supplies of protective foods exported to Great Britain. I believe that in many of the homes of this country too much of these foods are consumed. Certainly, I believe that in many of the well-to-do homes of this city, and perhaps throughout the country, far too many eggs are consumed, and it would be a great thing if something could be done to ensure that a large proportion of these valuable foodstuffs was made available for export to Great Britain. There is no doubt that that country has set a headline in regard to the distribution of food and the avoidance of black marketing.

Another matter which bears very much on the distress in Europe is the necessity of ensuring that as far as possible, not only for the next few months but for the next 12 months at least, we shall cut down to the lowest minimum our consumption of flour, bread and other wheat products. I feel that not enough is being done in this country to encourage the consumption of products other than bread.

If it is undesirable and perhaps impossible to restrict the consumption further than has been done, there should be more propaganda on the matter and more publicity directed towards ensuring that the consumption of bread will be reduced and that alternative foodstuffs such as vegetables will be substituted. If we are able to secure a reduction in our consumption of bread, I think we shall be making a very valuable contribution towards the relief of the food situation which exists on the Continent. Everything that is possible should be done in that direction.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

I listened attentively to the Taoiseach's speech. So far as I could gather, I think he told us some time ago that, broadly speaking, half of the food that was allocated in the last financial year could not be utilised because we had made it part of the bargain—and I think quite properly so—that transport would have to be provided. Apparently, as transport was not available about half the quantity of food provided last year had to be carried forward to this year. The Taoiseach did not specifically mention transport with regard to the provision for the next 12 months, but the difficulty seems now to be in regard to packages for the canned beef. I am wondering how he is going to get over that difficulty this year and if he can give us in a very rough and ready way an idea of the amount that has been already supplied and whether he hopes to be able to deliver the total quantity during the present year. The Government naturally are in possession of the greatest amount of information. I take it, that, of course, they have made a calculation, first of all, as to what these people need and then what we can offer. I think we have all read the very commendable advertisement at present appearing in the papers urging people not to waste food but it is wonderful how conservative people are. I do not care how much you urge people through the medium of the newspapers, I am quite sure that waste is still proceeding to an extent that, if we could avoid it, would make a very considerable difference to our food supplies.

I take it that side by side with the waste occasioned by throwing out food that could be eaten, there is waste going on when seasonal food is not preserved properly, is allowed to go bad, or is accumulated in one district while there is a shortage in another district. I do not suggest that the Government could do away with that situation by a wave of the hand, but I take it that by publicity they are trying to help in doing so.

There is an aspect of this relief question that I should like to bring to the Taoiseach's attention. While I suppose that everything said about the black market in European countries is true, and that some people in them are well fed, there is dire want in practically all European countries, and in other places where, owing to distance, the Government considers they could not help. In the mind of the ordinary citizens there is a desire to do something by making a personal sacrifice. If we sent a great deal more than this Vote represents, it would not satisfy the desire of some citizens to assist in a personal way. I remember the scheme by which everybody who sowed potatoes was asked to sow an additional drill for a particular organisation. I think the difficulty of collecting the potatoes broke down that proposal. I am quite sure that an effort along such lines would probably result in potatoes costing the Government far more than they could get them for in the markets. I should like to suggest to the Taoiseach that if there is any way by which the ordinary citizen, who is desirous of making some sacrifice could assist, he should be able to do his bit in that way. That would be apart from the Government's contribution towards the relief which this Vote covers.

I noticed a proposal to save bread by reducing the size of the loaf. In my opinion that is only cheating the devil in the dark. I do not know if the Taoiseach would agree with that scheme. Reducing the size of the loaf would not produce anything like the results expected, or be as useful as an arrangement by which people who wished to do so, could make some personal sacrifice. When they have made up their minds in that direction they could be able to do so.

It was said that if the size of the loaf was reduced no "heels" would be left. Deputy Dillon was wondering what section of the family should be asked to consume the "heels." I do not know whether I could be termed a tyrant, but in my family it was decided that members who were left in possession of teeth provided by the celestial dentist were the people best suited to consume the "heels." I do not think the Taoiseach would agree with that conclusion.

Mr. Norton

How did the scheme go?

General Mulcahy

There was no waste.

Mr. Norton

How did the teeth go?

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

Those who had teeth provided by the celestial dentist were the people to get the "heels." Dentists do good work, but they never provide anything equal to the natural teeth. I approve of this Estimate. I think everybody does. Some people are only sorry that the amount is not more. We want to see that we get the utmost value for the money that is being provided. The desire on all sides of the House is that the money should be distributed with the least trouble to the community, and that as many as possible should share under this scheme.

Mr. Briscoe

This Estimate is to provide money to send a variety of commodities, including foodstuffs, abroad. I imagine that every Deputy is satisfied that before the Government originally decided to embark on this scheme they satisfied themselves from information received from their officers abroad, as well as from institutions, that there was immediate need for relief of this kind. Having satisfied themselves to that extent they examined the matter to see how best the relief that could be given out of the very limited resources available, would go furthest in this charitable act on behalf of the people of this country. In the course of the discussion, instead of examining the situation as far as it has gone, and the idea behind its conception, we have been listening to suggestions as to how something better could have been done, and as to how other methods might have given greater results.

One has to understand what the situation in the different countries of Europe is. We had Deputy Dillon to-day saying that, in his view, we would do far more good if we brought to this country 20,000 assorted children and maintained them here for a period. I do not know whether Deputy Dillon knows what the picture of distress is. He coupled his remarks with references to black market activities and it is quite obvious that the greater the distress, the greater the black market activities. The few who have resources will naturally utilise them to keep themselves from suffering the privation endured by those who have not the means to buy even rationed commodities.

One has to approach this problem with knowledge and a certain amount of realism. Some of us may not have certain facts. I am in constant communication and constant touch, not only with people coming here from different European countries but with people who have been abroad and with organisations and societies abroad, and I shall read for the House now particulars in respect of one of the millions of cases which exist. It is the case of a family consisting of a father, mother, three boys and a girl living in Rumania. The parents are highly respectable and hard-working. The father was in a working camp for years and the mother worked extremely hard to keep her children, and she occasionally managed to send parcels and money to her husband in camp. During her husband's absence, the mother lived through terribly difficult times.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

The Deputy refers to a "working camp". Was it a concentration camp?

Mr. Briscoe

I do not know. It was a camp and all kinds of people were put in camps. Despite the hopeless situation, the mother brought up her children excellently and kept them admirably. This family has lost everything and are in dire need of help, in the shape of clothes, shoes, etc. Is it suggested that we should take from these parents one or a number of their children and bring them over here for a short period, leaving the rest to remain as no concern of ours? Surely it is far better to have the knowledge that, in the hands of the organisations such as the International Red Cross and the Church organisations of all denominations, whatever we send is going to families of that type who have nothing and who cannot buy even the rationed goods, not to speak of taking part in the racketeering which is going on in the big cities of Europe.

It is quite clear also that nations as well as people have a certain amount of pride. This has been exemplified for us by the fact that the two nations to whom we offered goods free are now prepared to take from us commodities of which they are short on a basis of paying for them. Obviously other nations, if they had the means, would not permit the acceptance of charity of that kind. It is due to absolute need and destitution, particularly in the areas which were overrun during the war. It is also quite clear that a serious effort is being made by peoples on the Continent to rehabilitate themselves as happy beings and this has been proved by the rapid recovery in some of the countries in Europe—a recovery which is not altogether complete, but one which nevertheless is such that these people are now able to trade as nations without the necessity to get commodities free from us.

Deputy Dillon introduced into his references a lecture as to how we should behave ourselves here and how we should make savings. I agree with Deputy Dockrell that it is all nonsense to suggest that, by cutting the 2 lb. loaf by a quarter pound, we will fool the people into believing that they have eaten a 2 lb. loaf. Is it not obvious that it is not on the basis of what the eye sees on the scales that we satisfy our hunger but on the basis of what satisfies our stomachs? I agree with Deputy Dockrell that if there are members of a family who have not got their original teeth to enable them to eat the "heels" of bread, there are other ways of consuming these "heels." In my household, the "heels" are used to make bread puddings, and it does not matter whether we have our original teeth or not.

The Government have acted quickly in response to this call from Europe, and I believe from what I have heard that everything we have sent has gone to the people to whom it should have gone. I do not believe that one single item from this country has found its way into wrong channels, because I am satisfied that the organisations such as the International Red Cross will make sure that the confidence placed in them will not be abused to the extent of allowing that to happen.

I have a number of details similar to those which I have given to the House and they come not from any anonymous source or some person whom I happened to meet while travelling. The information I have, I have got from a lady of great repute who is well known in this country, Miss Dorothy Macardle, who is at present travelling Europe and sending reports on the situation there and on the work being done by the organisations which are disposing of the goods provided by the assistance given by this Government. This nation has gone far in relation to its resources and we ought to feel happy that we have been able to render some service. Let us hope that the situation in Europe will continue to improve rapidly, so that it will not be necessary for us to consider the spending of money for this purpose.

With regard to Deputy Dillon's suggestion—a suggestion made lightly and without any consideration at all— that we should bring 20,000 children here, does anybody believe, apart from the consideration of the family circumstances which I have related, that we could accommodate such a number of children here? Our situation with regard to housing accommodation for our own people is so horrible and so bad that we could not possibly consider accommodating such large numbers of people here. I want to say that I have some knowledge not only of these organisations abroad but of charitable organisations at home, and one might as well say that we should be careful before we give charity through such a society as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, because that charity might find its way into the black market. Is not that stupid and nonsensical? Is it not obvious that every organisation which is attending to the distribution of this food is doing it from a humanitarian point of view? It is up to us to lend our unanimous support to the continuance of this operation, so long as it is necessary, and not to find fault with it, or make suggestions which would imply that all is not well, or that there is something wrong with it.

I welcome this Vote, as I welcomed it when it was first introduced in this House. I hope that the time will come when it will no longer be necessary for us to send relief to Europe. I would regret very much if anything which has been said in this House to-day would give the impression abroad that we were not quite satisfied—because we are—that every ounce of food we send and every commodity we send is finding its way to the most deserving of the destitute poor of Europe.

The Taoiseach

It is not unnatural that Deputies, knowing that black markets exist, should be very anxious that the food which goes from this country and which is intended for the relief of those in desperate need, should not find its way into such a market. Those dangers were clearly before the mind of the Government from the beginning and also before the mind of those who were entrusted by the Government with the details of this work. The organisations through which this food is distributed are mainly Governments and the International Red Cross, with the exception of one or two others. By giving it to the Government we got the only guarantee we could get that this food was going to be distributed in accordance with the needs of the people. If the Government did not do it I do not see how anybody else could do it. In regard to the International Red Cross, we have had reports which go to show the extreme care taken to see that the supplies which we send go to those places and those peoples to whom it has been arranged they should go. We have got receipts from the actual people who received these goods. Everything that is humanly possible is being done to ensure that these food supplies go to those people for whom they are intended. I think that we can be reasonably satisfied that the relief supplied is definitely used for the purpose for which it is intended. You have, of course, black marketeers in these countries. I was absent for a few minutes from the House while Deputy Briscoe was speaking. I think the idea he had in mind when talking about these black markets was this— that they arise, of course, from the fact that the amount of purchasing power in the hands of the people is not uniform. Some people have a good deal of money and they are prepared to be extravagant.

Life is more precious than money to them and they therefore use their money for the purpose of purchasing the necessaries of life. Where you have no Government to control, or where Governments are not in a position to control and see that the necessaries of life are equitably distributed, then, of course, a black market will operate; and those with money will be able to purchase food while those who have no money will have to go without. There is no extensive black market in England, just as there is no extensive black market here. But in those countries where governmental organisation has broken down or where you have only a makeshift governmental organisation, or control, then black markets are almost bound to exist.

Nobody has given any indication that the relief supplies which we are sending are finding their way into these markets. It would be hardly fair, I think, to say that, because around some of the larger cities you have a rural population who have supplies of foodstuffs to sell, we should not send supplies into those cities or come to the aid of the people in those cities. You may say to yourself: "These people ought to look after themselves and they ought to have some governmental organisation in control." I am sure that they are doing their utmost in this regard; I am sure they are fully alive to the needs of the situation and that they are trying to do their best to meet it. But conditions are altogether against them. Around every large city you have a rural population; that rural population has certain foodstuffs to sell and some people make it their business to go out from the cities and buy up these supplies. You cannot prevent that. They go out and purchase the supplies. Sometimes organised transport is not available, and if these supplies were not purchased by these people they would never be made available to the people in the city. These people go out on bicycles and bring in chickens, and so on. They sell them at high prices inside, but they are at any rate getting over, to a certain extent, the transport problem. The fact that a black market exists ought not to prevent us from trying to come to the aid of those who are in dire need.

Mr. Dillon

Might it not affect our judgement as to how we might most effectively come to the aid of those who are in need?

The Taoiseach

Certainly, but we have had no indication of any kind that any of the supplies which we are sending out have not gone exactly where they were intended to go. We have had the receipts of the International Red Cross, and so on, to prove that. Many thousands of letters have been received. As a matter of fact, I should say that hundreds of thousands of letters have been received; they are now so numerous that it is no longer possible to count them. We have had letters from individuals. I think Deputy Cogan stated that he had got letters from institutions. I can give any Deputy who wants to see these letters every opportunity of doing so. I have a few specimens here; I do not know whether the Deputies would be interested in my reading them now.

As far as ordinary human care can go, every care has been exercised. I think there is no substantial reason to doubt that the supplies that are being sent by us to the Continent are going exactly where it is intended that they shall go. That is the value of the International Red Cross. They asked us to send out people to investigate how these goods were being distributed. One lady reported back to me after visiting the Continent. I do not know whether she belongs to a group or not. She told me exactly what the result of her experience was. I think it is being arranged for a groups of two or three others to go to the Continent and see for themselves.

Mr. Dillon

But only one-fifth went to the Red Cross.

The Taoiseach

That was last year. The rest went to Governments. Again, every care was taken to convince us by letters, and so on, that the food went exactly where it was intended to go. The organisations which receive this food are most anxious that we should be satisfied under this head. I cannot imagine anything more harmful to efforts at relief than a suggestion that the relief was not going exactly where it was intended to go. It would be disastrous.

I do not think that anybody here doubts that the need for relief is very great. Last year, as I said, 75 per cent. went to Governments and 1/5th to the International Red Cross. This time 75 per cent. is going to the International Red Cross. Here, again, I am absolutely convinced that every possible step is taken to ensure that this food shall go where it is intended to go. I think we can assure Deputies under this head that the efforts of our people will not be abused in any way.

As regards better methods of doing this work in relation to the children, the Deputy who suggested those knows very well that sometimes the best is the enemy of the good; and that by attempting to get the best you very often achieve nothing. I think the method we have adopted is as good a method as you will find. I should say that we have tried to get very many more children than the Deputy suggested. We have been trying to get some hundreds and have failed. Something has been done in regard to the French children, but so far we have not been able to do anything for the children in other parts of Europe. We are trying to get 500 Polish children, but there are difficulties in the way. In answer to a question some days ago, I said that we were making arrangements to take a certain number of German children here. If that can be extended so much the better. There is a good deal to be said for it. You have a direct contact and you can be satisfied that you are doing a very good work and doing it directly. But there are other aspects of the problem. People do not like to part with their children if they can help it, and many other things intervene there, so that it is not so easy to get children as one might think at first sight. I was asked, I think by Deputy Cogan, how the goods that are sent abroad are purchased here. They are purchased in the open market in the ordinary way, at competitive prices.

The position of England has been mentioned. It is a matter which everybody must regard as wonderful the way in which the British are denying themselves so that more supplies will be available for Europe. As far as we are concerned here we are very anxious to help in any way that we can, but no way appears to us. There seems to be no way. As everybody knows, the market is here and it is not a question of shortage of money or anything like that; it is a question of getting supplies. Anything that was being sent out from here was rather by way of limitation of our own supplies than encroaching on anything that they were purchasing. The market is open too, so that, as far as our supplies are concerned, they are available for Britain in the first instance and, as far as the supplies to the Continent are concerned, there is a certain amount of competition in the buying because we buy in the open market and they would be buying too.

It is very difficult to see what we can do in the way of helping. We would be very glad to get any suggestions as to how it can be done. I have not seen any so far. But, we must remember that most of the British difficulties and the hardships they are enduring are deliberately endured in order to make available for the Continent more than would otherwise be possible. They are doing that in the case of bread and, I am sure, in regard to other matters as well.

I have been speaking to quite a number of people from Britain and I have heard the same sort of comment that has been made by the Deputy here about the position of the people in Britain as a result of the short rations, and so on. There is no doubt about it that they are working the system well and there seems to be very little complaint about a black market or anything like that and there does not seem to be the situation that Deputy Norton spoke about as obtaining in other places where the well-to-do can go into hotels and get very well fed indeed while the poor people outside have to go on very short rations. I think it is equitably distributed. It is difficult to see exactly how we can help other than that there is an open field for them here. It is not a matter of money. Therefore, once the market is open for them, I think we are doing everything that they would expect us to do. If there is any particular way in which we could help, I would be only too glad to do it.

The main question is to ensure that the supplies which we are sending will go exactly to the people that need them. As far as we can help that, it is being done and every care is being exercised. There has been no suggestion that we should not continue to make this effort. I do not want to keep the House but I have here a list of some of the places that helped us 100 years ago as well as some letters which I have received. It would probably only waste the time of the House if I were to read them. Deputies know exactly the type of letter one gets—that children have seen butter for the first time, that they could hardly believe it when they saw butter on bread as in peace time; letters from people who had been short of food when they got bread and butter; a letter from another family telling you what it meant when they got some Irish bacon, and so on. These are things that Deputies can easily understand from their own imagination without confirmation by my reading the actual letters.

I know that this Vote will be passed. I am sure nobody wishes to oppose it or to detract from the amount. I think it is as much as we can reasonably manage at the moment. I was asked a question about this. A Deputy asked me whether we would be able to get the tins. Unfortunately, the position with regard to tins is almost as bad as it has been up to the present. It is only a question of hope. It is quite obvious that if we could get tins, tinned meat would be one of the most satisfactory ways in which we could make supplies ready for distribution and just in the form in which it could be easily handled.

Mr. Norton

Is there some doubt that the 9,000,000 lb. of canned meat will not be dispatched?

The Taoiseach

Yes, unless we are able to get the tins. Last year we provided for 10,000,000 lb. and we were not able to send it. So, it is a question of getting tins. We cannot provide them ourselves but if we could it would be a way in which we would be able to make a very substantial contribution. Nobody wants to vote against this Vote. Everybody wants to be assured, as Deputy Dillon and Deputy Norton want to be assured, that the supplies go to the people for whom they are intended and, in so far as it is humanly possible to give that assurance, I am giving it. I have seen evidence of the care that has been exercised and I would only say that the existence of the black market should not be regarded by us as a reason for not doing what we are doing. I think there is no evidence whatever that any of this is going on the black market.

I do not know about Deputy Dillon's suggestion to make the loaf smaller. It seems it would only give us more "heels" to a unit of weight of bread but sometimes a device like that does succeed. Nobody could tell in advance whether it would or would not. I think you can only do that by experiment.

Mr. Dillon

I think they have adopted a modified form of it in Great Britain.

The Taoiseach

Yes. It would be only by experiment that you could determine and for myself I would not hope for a great deal from the experiment.

Mr. Dillon

But you are not a baker.

The Taoiseach

No, but I have an idea of what a loaf of bread is, all the same.

Mr. Norton

The Taoiseach is versatile enough.

The Taoiseach

My own suggestion about saving bread has always been this: in the country parts—and I know that they eat a good deal of bread—there are always available potatoes. That is a very fine substitute. It can be done more in the country than in the cities, but if any of us wants personally to make a contribution in that way to diminishing the consumption of bread, we have only to eat less bread and turn on to more potatoes. If that were done on a wide scale, there would be a very substantial contribution. I was amazed when I got the figures that I read out about what could be done by the saving of a slice of bread, so much so that I urged them to make sure that the calculations were right, and I wanted to know what was the basis of the calculation. I did not check them myself but I had them checked. It is astonishing what, apparently, a small saving like a slice of bread will do over a considerable period of time when you have over 1,000,000 people involved. It shows what can be done if we do try to restrict our own consumption of bread. I think in this country, where other types of food are available, we could reduce considerably the amount of bread we consume and so require less bread supplies, with the result that there would be more for those in greater need on the Continent.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Taoiseach care to deal with the point raised with regard to domestic service?

The Taoiseach

I have not forgotten that the Deputy mentioned that. The Deputy knows what a very big question would be involved. I would not like offhand to give any opinion on it. It would be a very serious matter and all sorts of considerations would have to be taken into account. I would not like to say that I would favour that suggestion. It is true there is a great shortage of domestic labour here. What would be the reactions of trying to meet that situation by getting a large number of people from the Continent is another matter. I think that is what ultimately would be involved.

I should not like to commit myself to any opinion upon the matter at the moment. It would require much more consideration than I have been able to give it since the suggestion was made. I am assuming now that we have not had a war situation and that we had a different situation in which there was a need for workers. There is always the question as to whether, if these people are needed, you should not get them from outside as well. But you have to get the premises right, and that is, that you have work for which you have not workers. At the moment I do not think we have reached that situation and I do not know whether it is likely to be reached at all under the conditions in which we are likely to live for a number of years to come. I would not like to hazard any opinion on that matter at the moment.

Mr. Norton

Is it possible to get, for our own satisfaction, a report from some of our overseas legations on the distribution of these foodstuffs?

The Taoiseach

What legations does the Deputy think of? We have reports from the International Red Cross; I can get them for the House. I shall look into this matter to see whether I could not get something from other Governments and other organisations which would convince Deputies with regard to the goods already distributed. The greater part of the supplies that are now going will be handled by the International Red Cross and I will be able to get from them an account of what will be done in such detail as it is reasonable to expect. The International Red Cross will deal with the countries I spoke of, including Germany and Austria and other countries east of the Rhine. We have no legations there at the moment. We have a legation in Switzerland, but anything our representative in Switzerland can get can be got by ourselves. He would have to rely very largely on the information given by the International Red Cross.

Mr. Norton

Could you not send a delegation there?

The Taoiseach

There are three or so going with the International Red Cross.

Mr. Norton

Are they Red Cross people from here?

The Taoiseach

There are three people we would send from here. There is no point in sending more than two or three.

Mr. Dillon

Is it not so that there is very much less ground for anxiety about black market transactions in regard to our supplies, where they are being handled by the International Red Cross? In fact, the International Red Cross has a very good and well tested organisation for passing supplies almost directly into the hands of the afflicted consumers.

The Taoiseach

I would say so. That is the point I am making, that the supplies as a result of this Vote will be delivered by the organisation which dealt with our past supplies and I think we can be equally well satisfied as to deliveries. I have received no complaint of any kind that would seem to suggest that the supplies we sent did, in fact, get into the black market. I know of the existence of the black market and I heard people from these countries complaining of its existence. Apparently, it is the recognised way of supplementing the ordinary rations everyone gets. It is available for those with money.

If one did not make due allowance for the conditions in these countries, and the fact that transport has broken down there, one would regard it as a very severe reflection on the Governments concerned. I have no doubt they are as anxious in these matters as we would be. They have practical difficulties to overcome. It is not an easy thing to overcome anything like that when it grows up under these conditions. The existence of the black market does not warrant the suggestion or the suspicion that the supplies we gave did not go to the people who really needed them. I have seen no evidence that would suggest even a suspicion. Although I was aware of it, and my Department was aware of it, I did not think the matter would be raised here at all, or that we should have to look out for it. There was nothing to indicate that there was any immediate fear.

I know the spirit in which these remarks have been made here. I do not think they should justify any people saying we should not send these goods—I do not think they would justify that. I hope none of these remarks will have the effect of making our people less anxious to help the desperate situation which exists in Europe. I can assure the people that every effort is being made to see that the goods they send go to meet a real need. Our action is fully appreciated. It would certainly make our people feel that they have done good work if they could only see a section of the many thousands of letters which have come to our Department.

Mr. Norton

My only concern in raising this matter was to make sure that the goods we were sending reached the most needy people in the most needy countries. My main concern is that these supplies are properly utilised in the interest of those needing them most and that we get the maximum value from whatever efforts we make.

The Taoiseach

I did not mistake the Deputy's remarks at all. I quite understand the spirit in which Deputies spoke. I am only anxious that nobody will interpret them otherwise or will incline to the opinion that we should not make any more goods available in this way.

Vote put and agreed to.