In the course of the debate on this Estimate much has been said concerning the language question and the methods adopted up to now to save the language. I agree that this matter is one of considerable importance for the Department of Education. The policy of attempting to save the language by Government backing was initiated when this State was formed. That policy was carried on by the subsequent Government and it now has a history of 26 years behind it. Looking back on those 26 years, anybody speaking on the subject of the Irish language speaks not in a vacuum but in possession of the actual facts concerning the progress or lack of progress made. Realising that, I think that every sensible person must agree that the progress made has not been satisfactory. We have spent a considerable sum of money in propaganda throughout those years, propaganda aimed at getting the people to speak Irish and to advocate the language in all spheres of life. We have spent large sums of money in educating a teaching staff to teach the language. We have spent large sums in encouraging people to go to the very source of the language itself. We have also spent considerable sums in encouraging people in their own interests, for their own material prosperity, to learn Irish and to become proficient in it. Despite all that, as one year succeeds another, the fact remains that there is less and less Irish spoken as the ordinary tongue in this country.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).
That is not so.
The Deputy may speak if he wishes and express his own views but I am in possession now and I am speaking with due consideration. I am not speaking as an opponent of the language. I am speaking of a fact which, in my opinion, exists and which I think is regrettable. I would blame the existence of that fact on the mentality which I mentioned on the last occasion on which I spoke in this House—the intense touchiness of everybody advocating the Irish language on hearing a single criticism as to the methods adopted to save it. It is about time, if we are serious in our efforts to save the language, that we should take stock of what we have been doing and decide what our aim is going to be in the future. I do not suggest that this Government or the present Minister should make any radical change in what has been agreed policy since 1922, as to the method of saving the language.
One Deputy speaking in this debate on the last occasion suggested a change in what is known as compulsory Irish. I do not know what people mean either by the policy of compulsory Irish or the suggestion of changing it. So far as the school curriculum is concerned it would be an extraordinary thing if Irish was not an obligatory subject in this country for children attending school and doing examinations. I am certain that nobody would advocate such a change; but I suggest very seriously to the Minister, who is one of the greatest friends of the language in this country and a man who will bring to this task all the enthusiasm which he possesses, that this whole matter should be considered very carefully. I am glad that, in this connection, he proposes to take the advice of the teachers and of the parents on the present policy in connection with the language.
I am sure that, by methods like those, we will get back eventually to the only way in which the language can be saved, that is, through the ordinary enthusiasm of the people, an enthusiasm springing from their love of the language and not enthusiasm driven into them by the big stick of the Department of Education, because, if we have a continuation of the big stick policy in a matter such as this, the language will become something to be hated by every schoolboy from the moment he goes into school until the day he leaves it. It may be that it is now too late, that too much damage has been done by a bigoted outlook on this matter. I sincerely hope that that is not so, but I urge on the Minister that a stocktaking should now be made of the entire question.
It would be possible for a speaker on this subject to talk at length about the Irish language, but I propose to avoid the temptation, and, in conclusion, would like to express my appreciation of the manner in which this debate has been conducted up to this. I am glad that Deputies on the opposite side are prepared to approach this important Estimate in a deliberative way, and on the basis of considering what is best for the country generally, apart altogether from Party affiliations. If that spirit is carried through to the teachers, progress will be made in the entire question of education.
Aontaím leis an Teachta Ó hUiginn gur ceart an cheist seo, múineadh na Gaeilge sna scoileanna, a chur fé scrúdú gan aon pholaitíocht a tharraingt isteach, mar ceist mhór leathan isea í a bhaineann linn go léir. 'Se ad theastaíonn uamn: teanga na Gaeilge a thabhairt thar nais athuair sa tír seo. Fé mar is eol domsa, tá dhá dhream sa tír seo atá i bfhábhar na Gaeilge. Tá dream a cheapann gur ceart na hábhar scoile a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge nuair a bhíonn na múinteoirí oilte chun é sin a dhéanamh agus nuair a bhíonn eolas a ndóithin ag na leanaí óga chun leas a bhaint as an teagasc a tugtar dóibh.
Maidir leis sin, is baolach go bhfuil a lán daoine, agus fiú amháin daoine sa Teach seo, nách dtuigeann an cheist seo i gceart, nách dtuigeann an rial a bhaineann leis—nach bhfuil sé d'oblagáid ná d'éigeantas ar aon mhúinteoir na hábhair scoile a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge, muna bhfuil an múinteor sin oilte chun a dhéanta agus muna bhfuil go leor eolais ag na leanaí chun an teagasc do chur chun tairbhe dhóibh féin. Sin riail a cuireadh ar bun chomh fada siar leis an mbliain 1931 agus rinneadh tagairt don rial sin ó shoin. Is ait liomsa go labhrann daoine annso, agus lasmuich leis, gan aon aitheantas a thabhairt don riail sin, agus, fé mar is eol dom, nuair a bhíonn na cigirí ag dul timpeall go dtí na scoileanna, cuireann siad ina luí ar na muinteoirí gan na habhair scoile do mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge muna bhfuil siad oilte chun é sin a dhéanamh.
Cad is oiliúnt ann maidir an leis gceist seo? An teastas dhá-theangach a bheith acu, nó teastas níos airde ná sin, an t-árd-teastas, a bheith acu. Dá bhrí sin, tá súil agam ná gclosfimid a thuile mar gheall ar an rud seo ar a dtugtar "compulsory Irish" mar tá an rud céana le rá i dtaobh gach abhar scoile a múintear do na leanaí.
Anois, ní aontaím leis na daoine seo adeir ná fuil an Ghaeilge ag dul ar aghaidh. Is dóigh liomsa go bhfuil, ach obair chruaidh is ea teanga d'aithbheochaint tar éis roint blianta, go mór mór nuair atá an oiread seo constaicí sa tslí. Tá na pictiúrlanna an radio agus na páipéirí nuaíochta go léir sa tslí sin maidir leis an troid ar son na Gaeilge, ach na daoine a bhfuil baint acu leis na scoileanna, leis na bunscoileanna féin, chíonn siad, ó bheith ag labhairt leis na leanaí, go mbíonn cuid mhór Gaeilge acu san ag fágaint na scoile dhóibh. Is é an deacracht atá sa scéal ná nuair théas siad amach sa saol ina dhiaidh sin, ná bíonn an chaoi acu chun an t-eolas a fuaireadar sa scoil do chur i dtairbhe agus chun cinn. Ní bhíonn sé de chaoi acu an Ghaeilge ná comhrá na Gaeilge a leathnú mór-thimpeall orthu agus sin é an laige atá sa slabhradh. Sin é an laige atá ag baint leis an scéal ar fad, agus, dá bhféadfaimis an laige sin a leigheas, bheadh rud mór déanta againn.
Ach ba mhaith liom a rá arís go bhfuilim sásta go mbíonn roint mhaith Gaeilge ag na leanaí ag fágaint na scoile dhóibh. Gí go gcloisaimíd a lán mar gheall ar an éigeantas atá ag baint leis an nGaeilge, ní mór a chloisaimíd in aon chor ar an éigeantas atá ag baint leis an mBéurla. Fé mar is eol dúinn go léir, caithfidh, fiú amháin na daoine atá sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht, an Béurla d'fhoghlaim, agus má bhíonn aon scrudú le déanamh acu, bíonn Béurla ann mar ábhar éigeantach, agus is minic go deimhin a theipeann orthu mar gheall ar an rud céana. Dá gcuireadh duine ceist ormsa, ar cheart an Béurla a scrios amach ar fad as na scrúduithe sin, déarfainnse gur cheart, ach is dócha go mbeadh a lán daoine eile ná haontódh liom. Tá daoine ann adeir nach ndéanann sin aon díobháil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta, ach geallaimse dhuit gur lua go leor a gheobhaidh siad eolas ar an mBéurla sa nGaeltacht. Tá súil agam go dtuigfidh na daoine sin a bhíos ag fáil locht ar an gcóras oideachais annso mar gheall ar an éigeantas atá ag baint le múineadh na Gaeilge go bhfuil éigeantas eile ag baint le múineadh an Béurla sa nGaeltacht agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil cúis ghearán annsin.
Thosnaíos agus rinneas tagairt do dhá dhream atá sa tír seo—dream go dteastaíonn uatha go muinfí na hábhair scoile trí Ghaeilge agus a cheapann gurb é an tslí is fearr é chun an Ghaeilge a leathnú sa scoil mar go mbeidh an méid sin aimsire á chaitheamh in úsáid na Gaeilge nuair a bheas na hábhar scoile á mhuinéadh tríthi agus dream eile, agus daoine, is dócha, atá dílis don Ghaeilge, leis, gur dóigh leo nár cheart in aon chor na hábhar scoile a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge, ach go mbeadh an Ghaeilge fhéin mar ábhar scoile sna scoileanna agus go dtabharfar spás áirithe do mhúineadh na Gaeilge féin sna scoileanna. Fé mar adúirt ní cheana, nuair bhí an cheist seo fé dhíospóireacht sa Teach seo cheana, nílimse ar thaobh na ndaoine sin, ach, bíodh is nach bhfuilim, ní deirim nach bhfuilid dílis do chuspóir na Gaeilge. Ceapaimse, má tá leanaí óga ag dul ar scoil ar dtús agus gan mórán colais acu ar an mBéurla, bheadh sé chomh maith tosnú le Gaeilge—pictiúirí a thaispeáint dóibh agus cainteanna beaga a thabhairt dóibh mar gheall ar na rudaí atá timpeall na scoile. Dá luaithe a tosnófar leis na rudaí seo, is ea is fearr é. Bheadh an méid sin focal agus an méid sin cainteanna foghlamtha ag na leanaí óga, agus, ina theannta sin, tá daoine ann a chuireann suim i gcúrsaí oideachais, daoine léannta, daoine a bhfuil eolas acu ar theangacha, gurab é an t-aos is fearr ná idir 4 agus 8 mbliana chun teangacha d'fhoghlaim. Ina dhiaidh sin, bíonn aigne an linbh á socrú agus bíonn sé níos deacra air greim d'fháil ar an teanga. Is fusa go mór an tslat do lúbadh nuair a bhíos sí óg ach nuair a chruas an tslat is deacair, í a lúbadh. Is mar gheall ar sin go bhfuilimse ar thaobh na ndaoine atá i bhfábhar leanúint den chuspóir atá againn.
Dúirt an tAire, nuair a bhí sé ag cur an Mheastacháin seó os cóir an Tí go bhfuil sé ar aigne aige Comhairle Oideachais a chur ar bun. Níorbh é sin an chéad uair a rinne an tAire tagairt do chomhairle oideachais. Nuair a bhí sé ar an dtaobh seo, agus taobh amuigh, den Teach seo, rinne sé tagairt dó, mar gur dhóigh leis, agus gur dóigh leis fós, is dócha, gur rud maith é. Caithfidh mé a rá nach bhfuilim ar aon aigne leis agus nach rabhas ríamh, mar ní fheicimse cad é an tairbhe a dhéanfadh sé comhairle oideachais a chur ar bun. Cé hiad na daoine a cuirfí ar choiste mar seo; conas a toghfaí tuistí, conas a toghfaí bainisteoirí, conas a toghfaí múinteoirí de gach saghas, conas a toghfaí cigirí mar is dócha gur cheart focal aibidh do bheith ag na cigirí? Nílimse ar thaobh comhairle oideachais a chur ar bun, mar tuigtear dom go bhfuil máistrí a ndóthain ar na múinteoirí, gan a thuille trioblóide a chur anuas sa mullach orthu. Má tá aon eolas ag teastáil ón Aire i dtaobh conas atá cúrsaí na tuaithe ag dul chun chinn maidir le ceist an oideachais, gheobhaidh sé an t-eolas ó na bainisteoirí gan mhoill. Má theastaíonn uaidh a fháil amach conas tá an córas oideachais ag obair, gheobhaidh sé an t-eolas ó na cigirí agus daoine oilte eile.
Ar léigh an Teachta an tuarascáil a cuireadh amach an bhlian seo caite in Albain?
Do léas tagairt dó.
B'fhiú don Teachta é a léamh.
Fé mar is eol dom, ní go ró-mhaith atá an córas ag obair annsin, ná i Sasana. Ar aon chuma, seanaphort is ea é sin agus ní inniu ná inné an chéad uair a chualamar é. Creidim i gcónaí gur cheart an cúram a chur ar aon duine amháin chun cúrsaí mar sin a stiúradh agus sin é an córas atá againn fé láthair.
Is ait liomsa go bhfuil an tAire sásta an tsuim airgid a bhí sa Mheastachán i gcóir glanntóireacht na scol a laghdú. Bhí sa Mheastachán ar dtús £90,000 i gcóir na hoibre sin agus aon duíne a bhfuil eolas aige ar na scoileanna agus ar conas mar a bhíonn na leanaí istigh iontu, caithfidh sé admháil gur beag go leor an tsuim é sin maidir le sláinte na leanaí agus ní fheadar in aon chor cad 'na thaobh ar laghdaíodh an méid go dtí £65,000, sé sin le rá, go bhfuiltear le £25,000 a sparáil air. Ní fheadar an domhan an mbeidh na bainisteoirí sásta leis sin. Ní dóigh liom go mbeidh, agus is iad na bainisteoirí na daoine atá freagarthach sa cheist seo í gcónaí.
B'fhéidir go mbeadh an Teachta i ndon innsint dúinn cad 'na thaobh gur méadaíodh é i mbliana?
Mar tuígeadh gur rud tábhachtach scoileanna a ghlanadh i gceart maidir le sláinte na leanaí.
I mbliana?
In aon bhlian.
Seachas anuraidh?
In aon bhlian— agus is ó bhlian go chéile a bhímid ag bailiú eolais.
Is fíor sin.
Sin é an tuairim atá agamsa, ach go háirithe.
Maidir le ceist seo na Gaeilge ins na scoileanna, ba mhaith liom a thaispeáint do na daoine atá ag fáil locht ar an gcóras atá ann faoi láthair, ná fuil na hábhair scoile á múineadh trí Gaeilge i mórán scoileanna in aon chor. Fé mar a thuigim na figiúirí, tá 5,009 scoileanna agus níl na hábhair scoile á múineadh trí Ghaeilge ach i 611. Na daoine atá fáil locht ar an gcóras mar gheall ar na h-ábhar bheith á múineadh trí Ghaeilge, b'fhéidir gur cheart dóibh féachaint ar na figiúirí sin agus na daoine adeir go bhfágann na leanaí na scoileanna agus iad aineolach i nGaeilge agus i mBéurla, d'oirfeadh dóibh staidéar a dhéanamh ar na figiúirí sin ach bíonn a lán daoine mar sin ag caint agus ní thuigeann siad an scéal ar chor ar bith.
I would like now to say a few words in English, having spoken so long in Irish. First of all, I express my astonishment that the Minister, during the whole of his speech in his presentation of the Estimate to the House, did not mention anything about teachers' salaries. Everybody knows that that has been a burning question for some years back. One would imagine, having regard to the attitude that the Minister and his colleagues and those who now substantially form the Coalition Government took up in connection with the teachers' strike, that one of the first things which they would do when they came into office would be to raise the teachers' salaries. As far as I can see, no advance is being made beyond what the previous Government thought fit and proper to do, namely, to raise the teachers' salaries by £1,250,000, minus the cost-of-living bonus. That was regarded by many politicians at the time as outrageously low so far as the teachers were concerned.
Since then a general election has taken place. Some of those very teachers played a rather important part in that general election against the Fianna Fáil Government, expecting a better deal from the Coalition. I am afraid that those of them who believed that their case would be reviewed after the change of Government took place are sadly disillusioned. It is a question of "as you were" so far as they are concerned. They can see now that there was no sincerity behind the clamour of those politicians.
With regard to the council of education to which the Minister has referred, I know very well that that is a pet subject with the Minister. It has been so for many years. It comes as no surprise to me to find that one of his first steps as Minister for Education is to announce to the House the setting up of such a council of education. Reference has been made from time to time to the way in which such a council of education works in other countries.
It seems to me that it is better when dealing with such an important question as education—and everybody will admit that it is one of the most important questions coming before this House for discussion—that responsibility should be fixed upon one individual. We all know that it is through our educational system, as formulated and carried out by the Minister and his Department, that the lives, habits and characters of our people are moulded. I do not believe in relegating responsibility for our education to a number of people. I believe in fixing responsibility on one individual provided that that individual has access to all the channels of information that should be available to him. I submit that those channels of information are available. The Minister has his managers who can inform him as to how the system operates throughout the country. He has his inspectorial staff who can inform him as to what progress the educational system is making throughout the country. He has many methods by which he can keep in touch with the parents in order to find out from their point of view how the land lies as regards education. I cannot see what useful purpose will be served by setting up a council of education in this country.
I have already referred in Irish to the heating and cleaning of the schools. I find it difficult to understand why the Minister should now see fit to reduce the Estimate from £90,000 to £65,000. This involves the health of the children and a reduction in the Estimate is unjustifiable even in the interests of economy.
I do not like to interrupt, but there is a rule in this House that a Deputy may not make a speech in Irish and then repeat it in English, or vice versa. In other words, a Deputy may not instruct the House in two languages.
It was my intention to give a synopsis of what I said for the benefit of those people in this House who may not understand Irish. I am, however, willing to abide by the ruling of the House in that regard. I want to say a few words about teaching through the medium of Irish. I have already referred to it in my speech in Irish, but I merely touched upon the fringe of the subject.
There is no objection to both languages being used provided the Deputy does not repeat himself.
I wish to refer to speeches made here about teaching through the medium of Irish. I think Deputy Collins and one or two other Deputies said that the children were leaving the schools "illiterate in both languages"—that is, illiterate in Irish and illiterate in English. That is a grand phrase but a threadbare one. But, of course, no evidence has been forthcoming to prove that that is so. On the contrary, the evidence is all the other way. There is now an examination in the primary schools for the primary certificate. I remember coming across a reference to that examination in the Leader some time ago. A teacher of long experience said that this examination imposed an undue burden upon the children; he said it was too difficult for children of that age. The fact remains, however, that from 70 to 75 per cent. of the children who sat for that examination each year from its inception successfully passed it. You have, on the one hand, a statement by an experienced teacher that the examination is too difficult and too burdensome; on the other hand, you have the results to prove that from 70 to 75 per cent. of the children passed the examination. I think that is proof, if proof is needed, that children leaving school nowadays are not the illiterate people they are represented by some people to be. I have not the figures with me, but it would be easy to get them.
When this statement was made, that children were leaving school illiterate in both languages, the implication was that the teaching of Irish in the schools was responsible. From figures which I have come across out of 5,009 schools, ordinary subjects are being taught through the medium of Irish in 611, and of these there are 174 in the Fior-Ghaeltacht, 83 in the Gaeltacht, 106 in the Breac-Gaeltacht and 248 in the Galltacht. If you subtract 611 from 5,009 it leaves you 4,398 schools where teachers, exercising their own intelligence and common sense, teach the amount they think it is proper to teach through Irish and the rest through the medium of English. So this thing that is called compulsory Irish is not compulsory in the sense that the Deputies who have spoken would have us believe.
On another occasion I referred to a circular issued to the schools some years ago in which an instruction was given to the teachers to the effect that the "ordinary school subjects are to be taught through the medium of Irish only where a teacher is competent to teach through the medium of Irish and, where the children can assimilate the instruction so given, where these two conditions exist teachers should endeavour to extend the use of Irish as a medium of instruction as far as possible". The words "as far as possible" are used. "When these conditions do not exist, such teaching through the medium of Irish is not obligatory."
Again, in 1936, instructions were sent out to teachers as follows: "In regard to the question of teaching through the medium of Irish, it is considered necessary to draw the attention of inspectors to the circular, a copy of which is issued herewith, dealing with this question, and particularly to the warning it contains against using Irish as a teaching medium in schools or classes where the conditions set out in the circular as necessary for the success of such teaching are not present."
It can be seen from these instructions that not alone are teachers not compelled to teach school subjects through the medium of Irish where the two conditions referred to are not in existence, but the teachers are definitely discouraged from doing so. I hope we have heard the last of this thing they call compulsory Irish.
I would like to refer to school buildings. There are some school buildings in my constituency that urgently need attention. However, I do not think this is the appropriate time to refer to these things. I shall be able to supply details to the Minister later on about these schools.
Is suimiuil an rud é le tabhairt fé ndeara nach gcloistear an oiread Gaeilge sa Teach aon tráth is a cloistear nuair a cuirtear Meastachán Roinne an Oideachais faoi bhráid na Dála. Sompla maith is ea é do na daoine leasmuigh agus 'spáineann sé go bhfuil na daoine ar gach taobh ag cur suime i gceist na Gaeilge. Tá súil agam agus táim deimhnitheach de go leanfar de sin. Sin a bhfuil le rá agam go fóill.
I agree with the previous speaker that this is one of the most important questions that we could discuss and I am surprised that more interest is not taken by members of the House in a matter of such importance.
Much of our educational system is designed along class lines; the very fact that we have divided our educational system into primary, secondary and higher forms reveals that. Broadly speaking, the primary school child is given the amount of education that prepares him for the factory, the workshop or the field. It is very restricted and it makes it impossible for that child to understand and appreciate the place of men and women in society. Secondary education, on the other hand, prepares the child for supervisory positions and as teachers. The fee-paying child has prospects of reaching the university and even the scholarship child, although to a lesser degree, has such a possibility ahead. As far as I can see, the type of education that is given to the secondary school child is different even in scope from that given to the primary school child.
Here I want to say to the Minister —and I am inclined to think that I am dealing with a Minister who would be sympathetic—that we have to deal with the talented child who has no chance whatever of reaching the university. I know of cases where parents are begged to leave their children at school but they have to be taken from school at the age of 15 years because of lack of means. Those children have no chance of receiving a higher education and I feel that our educational system is at fault. I feel that it is at fault where children of talent are lost to the country because the system of education makes it impossible for them to go to the university on their talents.
I feel that there is very little value in a system of education that launches young people into life, class conscious and burdened with social wrongs. I would like to bring the Minister's attention to changing all that with a view to giving a talented child a chance of going to the university and getting the education which he is entitled to get.
Listening to the various speakers, I feel that educationists in this country and the Deputies who have spoken here this evening are more preoccupied with means and methods than with ends. I feel that education must be considered from a social point of view and must have a definite objective. I feel that it is our duty to try to achieve the ideal of giving to our young people an education which will not merely help them to get on in life but which will help them to understand what life is. I also feel that the first and most important dividing line is the line between those who believe, and passionately believe, that there is an urgent need for social change and those who, having vested interests either intellectual or material, want to preserve things as they are and I believe that education will have to stand on one side or the other of that dividing line. We must prepare and educate our people for the changes which are taking place in society and if we are to have a better Ireland we must get people who believe that a better Ireland is possible.
I will now come to the question of the school leaving age and I hope that every Deputy in this House will agree with me that the time has come when the school leaving age should be raised. Young people are thrown out of our schools year after year who are quite improperly prepared for the contact with life, and at this stage education is specially needed in order to develop children personally and morally. I think that the Minister and educationists throughout the country should concentrate on the problem of adult education. I know a couple of young men who were able to secure a silver medal and a gold medal for speaking Irish at the age of 16. The parents of one of them had died and the other man was in very poor circumstances. These chaps did everything possible to equip themselves to be teachers but they had not the means to do so. One of them offered to work in a certain college with a view to becoming a vocational teacher. It is a sad thing that young men with talent and desire to educate themselves are denied the means to do so because of our educational system.
I have also in mind a number of young boys who get the chance of employment at the age of 16 and 17 and who are not able to finish their course for matriculation. There should be some means for them to go to night classes in order to qualify themselves for matriculation with a view to getting ultimately a B. Comm. or whatever else they want to get at the university. I think that this is a very important matter as far as boys and girls of the working classes are concerned. Are we getting the type of citizens at the moment that we should be getting? Something is wrong with our educational system because young men and women grow up who have not got the social sense or the sense of responsibility which we would wish to have in our growing boys and girls. I would suggest that adult education particularly should have its place and I would urge the Minister for Education to give more consideration to the question of adult education for young people who are between the school-leaving age and the age of 19 or 20. Young people who have talent should have a right to receive the university education which their talent entitles them to have.
I have a very great deal of sympathy with the remarks of the last speaker with regard to giving talented boys and girls the opportunity of carrying their studies through to university age. I believe that it is a matter of great interest to this country that the best brains of the country should be capable of being trained and used here. To a great extent, the difficulty stated by Deputy Hickey is got over in other countries, in Canada and the United States of America, by whatever way they work their system in certain provinces and States so that young men and women can follow their university career and at the same time earn the means to do so by having some form of livelihood outside. If we could arrange something of that sort here, this difficulty could be overcome and I think it should be overcome.
It is only natural that on the question of the Education Estimate the problem of the Irish language as a living language should be discussed. It is treated and I hope it always will be treated, from a non-Party point of view. I would divide Deputies in this House into three categories: those who have a genuine knowledge and enthusiasm of the language; those who, like myself, have no knowledge of the language whatever but who are enthusiastic for other people to acquire it; and the Deputies who are between those classes. If we were to pool our brains and our experience here we might evolve a system which would produce a victory for the Irish language. Persons like myself who do not know any Irish are in a very fair position to judge what progress the language has made. Those who know the language are inclined to be slightly prejudiced—and I do not mean this in any offensive sense—but they are inclined to be slightly touchy about it. One thing that has convinced me that there must be something wrong with our methods at the present time is the results that they have shown. I have made a perusal of the statistical abstract of the population of this country and I think a very fair analysis can be made from the figures. The population of this country at the present time, leaving out those persons who reside in totally Irish-speaking portions of the Gaeltacht, who are over the age of nine is roughly 2,000,000 in round figures. I have taken these figures from the Statistical Abstract. I arrived at the figure in this way: the total population was 2,992,000 in 1941— the latest figures available. The population under nine years of age is 546,000, leaving 2,445,000 over the age of nine. I find from the Statistical Abstract dated 1936—the latest figure available—that the population residing in totally Irish-speaking districts was 426,000. If one takes 426,000 from 2,992,000 one gets roughly 2,500,000 and, allowing 500,000 to bring the figure up to date, one gets 2,000,000.
As far as I can obtain from the same analysis of the Statistical Abstract, in 1941, the total population between the ages of nine and 24 was 779,000. That means that that population, in 1941, was going through or had been through a course of Irish, compulsory or otherwise. I start with the year 1925 for that purpose. Taking the figure given in the Statistical Abstract for persons under nine years of age, that is, 546,000, it is only fair to add for the seven years since 1941, at least 250,000 to the figure of 779,000. That leaves the incontrovertible figure of 1,000,000 for the figure of population that is going through or has gone through a course of compulsory Irish in our schools. That means that one out of every two people in this country has had the advantage of a course of compulsory Irish. I leave it to the House to decide on the figures which I have given, and which are accurate to the extent of thousands or 1,500 here and there, whether or not the system has been a success in the object it was set out to attain. It must be a great disappointment to all who would like to see the system a success that although one in two of our population has had the advantage of a course of Irish under our own Government and under our own institutions, the number of those who use the language is nowhere near that figure.
There is a branch of teaching which should be extended and emphasised in our schools. I refer to cookery. This country produces a variety of very valuable vegetables. These vegetables can be grown from inexpensive seed. They are not properly appreciated in the majority of Irish homes because the women have not received proper instruction in the cooking and preparation of these foods. The Department should make a special effort, by instruction and propaganda, to increase practical knowledge of cookery. It is very important for a number of reasons. First of all it is important economically. By producing vegetables we would increase the supply of home produced food to take the place of imported food. It stands to reason that if our people eat more vegetables the amount of wheat and other grain we will have to import can be reduced. Secondly, it is important from a health point of view.
Any Deputy who is connected with a health organisation or with the medical profession realises that I am talking common sense in this matter. Vegetables have a very high food value. The reason they are not more generally used is the lack of proper facilities for teaching cookery in our schools and the lack of interest in the matter. The proper Department to sponsor an effort of that kind is the Department of Education.
Tinned vegetables that have been imported from America, Belgium, Czechoslovakia and other places are purchased by people in Irish country towns although the same food could have been grown in their own gardens. Deputies will realise that fresh food is preferable to tinned food. The Almighty gave us an indifferent climate for some purposes but an admirable climate for growing vegetables and I would press upon the Minister's Department the necessity, in the interests of economy and health, of considering the matter I have raised.
There are a few points I would like the Minister to consider. At the moment, I am afraid, all the component parts of education are disjointed. Until there is proper coordination, education will remain in its present stage of development which, unfortunately, is not a very satisfactory state. I have often wondered at the number of students who have had a long academic career, up to leaving certificate standard, who, through no fault of their own, have to discontinue their education and enter blind-alley employment. I have often wondered why some effort has not been made by the educational authorities to evolve a plan so that the brains of these people would be utilised to the very best advantage to the State. If these people could be trained for a certain trade or profession it would be of benefit to themselves and to the State. Unfortunately, year after year, lists of brilliant examination students appear in the newspapers.
These lists are published by the colleges or schools in which these students studied. After that they seem to fade out of the life of the country. Nobody seems to hear anything about them except in exceptional cases where, by virtue probably of their parents' financial position, they are able to continue their studies. I have no hesitation in saying that, without financial backing, the majority of those brilliant boys and girls are casualties and are led into blind-alley employment. Since I have come to the House I have not heard anything said with regard to teachers. Personally, I have the greatest admiration for the national teacher—that man or woman to whose care is given the child of tender years and who brings that child to an educational standard where it can be transferred to secondary education. In my opinion, those people—I hope that at this time I am not striking any discordant note in the proceedings— should be paid commensurate with the services they are giving to the nation. I am afraid, however, they are not.
I should like to suggest to the present Minister that he should introduce into his primary schools some system which would inculcate in the youth of our country the respect that is due to our national flag. I believe that the only way of inculcating that is to have those children brought out on a morning of a week or a month or a term and made stand to attention while the flag is being raised. I believe that in their subsequent careers as men and women that training would be of benefit to them and give them a public spirit which all the preaching that might be given to them after a certain age would not achieve. I am sure a lot of people here realise that as well as I do. A lot of children are more or less haphazard about the way the national flag of the country is raised or lowered except those coming from the very few schools where it is flown. With the co-operation of the national teachers that difficulty could very easily be surmounted and the training would pay in value in the subsequent lives of the pupils.
I should like to refer to the lack of co-ordination in the different educational elements in this country at the moment. Deputy Sir John Esmonde referred to cooking. We have, in this country, domestic economy classes; the ordinary vocational commercial classes; language classes such as Irish and so forth, and needlework classes. In addition we have agricultural education. All these elements of education seem to be disjointed. Some of them, I understand, do not come under the scope of the Department of Education at all. Agricultural education is different. All these elements of education should be brought under one control and from that control the different systems and curricula should radiate so as to co-ordinate the educational life of the country.
With regard to the school-leaving age, I am afraid that before we can hope to get any results we will have to do something to improve the wages of the parents. Everybody knows that at the moment, in places where there is only the ordinary basic industry of the country, £2 15s. Od. per week is the sum of money on which a man has to rear a family of probably five or seven children. It follows that when the eldest child reaches the age of 14 he or she, as the case may be, must try and earn a living for himself. If we want to arrive at any satisfactory solution for the raising of the school-leaving age we must first seriously relate ourselves to the raising of the wages so that the father need not worry about what is going to happen to his eldest child on reaching the age of 14 years. The father will then be in a position to maintain that child at school for a further educational period which will be of benefit to the child in later years. I hope that in the very near future the school-leaving age will be raised from 14 years to 16 years and that no illeffects will accrue from that measure as far as the parents of the child are concerned.
Pádraig Ó Cuinneáin
Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar cheist na Gaeilge agus ceist an oideachais go ginearálta. Sa gcéad dul síos ní aontaím le héinne adeir nach bhfuil dul chun cinn déanta sa tír seo maidir le Gaeilge mar tá mé cinnte go mbíonn mórán Gaeilge ag na páistí nuair a fhágann siad an scoil ach go bhfágtar ansin é. Ní labhrann siad an Ghaeilge tar éis fagaint na scoile doibh. Ní fheadar cé tá ciontach leis sin. Sé mo thuairim gurb é an t-aon locht atá orainn ná go ndearnadh faillí sa cheist náisiúnta le roint blianta anuas, cur i gcas, ón lá a rinneadh an Conradh le Sasana agus an tír seo agus gur bhuaidh an chumhacht orthu. On lá sin amach rinneamar faillí i gceist na náisiúntachta agus anois tá na daoine óga faillíoch mar nach bhfuaireadar an sompla uainne. Fiú amháin sa Teach seo tá sé le feiceál. Chomh fada is atáimse anseo ní dóigh liom go bhfuil deá-shompla dá thabhairt do na daoine óga mar tá an iomarca Béarla le cloisint anseo. Bíonn daoine ag caint ar cheist na Gaeilge tríd an mBéarla agus, dar ndóigh, is ait an rud é sin. Tá fir óga, cuid acu ar múinteoirí scoile iad, sa Tigh seo agus is beag Gaeilge a bhíos ar siúl acu anseo. Ba choir níos mó Gaeilge a bheith le cloisint sa Tigh seo agus ba chóir, freisin, go mbeadh i bhfad níos mó Gaeilge le léamh sna páipéir nuaíochta. Rinne an Teachta O Ciosáin tagairt do na pictiúirlanna. Is mithid dúinn athrú éigin a dhéanamh orthu sin. Go deimhin, tá an iomarca Béarla le cloisint ins na pictiúirlanna—agus Béarla ná déanann aon mhaitheas do na daoine óga. Ba choir dúinn aire a thabhairt don taobh sin den cheist agus na pictiúirlanna a Ghaelú beagáinín.
Rud eile dhe, táimid ag síor-chainnt i dtaobh "compulsory Irish". Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil a leithead ann ar aon chor.
Tá an ceart ag an Teachta.
Pádraig Ó Cuinneáin
Tá fhios againn go léir nach mbíonn eolas ag paiste, nuair a théas sé ar scoil ar a 4 no a 5 bliana d'aois, ar theanga ar bith. Is cuma leis an bpáiste cén teanga in a múintear é. Is cuma cé acu Béarla, Gaeilge, Laidin nó Greigis é. Mar sin fhéin táimid ag síor-chaint mar gheall ar "compulsory Irish". Sé mo thuairim gur mór an chontúirt é anois, go mór-mhór, aon athrú a dhéanamh ar an modh atá againn fé láthair mar tá Galldachas agus gach rud mar sin atá i gcoinne na tíre seo ag teacht isteach níos láidre na riamh. Tá sé sin le feiscint, i ngach tír sa domhan agus muna dtugtar aire do cheist na Gaeilge is eagal liom ná beidh sí beo againn i bhfad. Tá mé sásta go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ann agus go mairfidh sí ins na hollscoileanna agus ag na daoine léanta. 'Sé atá uainn sa tír seo ná an Ghaeilge a chur i mbéal na ndaoine. Níl slí ar bith chun é sin a dhéanamh ach an náisiúntacht d'athbhunú sna daoine i dtreo is go mbeadh meas acu ar gach ní Gaelach. Ba chóir dúinn, freisin, a chur in a luí ortha na rudaí a rinneadh ar son na Gaeilge agus na daoine a throid ar son na Gaeilge agus ar son saoirse na tíre. Tá cuid mhaith d'aos óg na tíre gan an t-eolas sin anois agus, dá bhrí sin, níl meas acu ar aon rud Gaelach. Go dtí go ndéantar sin ní bheidh aon dul chun cinn déanta againn. Ba chóir go gcuirfí scéim éigin ar siúl i dtreo is go mbeadh caoi ag na páistí a fhágann an scoil leanúint dá gcuid oideachais leasmuigh den scoil. Tá áiteanna ann ina ndéantar sin fé láthair—áiteanna a mbíonn ranganna Gaeilge faoi Choistí Gairme Oideachais, agus mar sin. Bíodh sin mar atá, tá a lán áiteanna nach ndéantar é sin ós rud é nach bhfuil múinteoir le fáil ionntu. Chomh fadh is atá an Ghaeilge ag na páistí déarfainn gur chóir deire a chur leis na focla "compulsory Irish" agus tréan-obair a dhéanamh i dtreo is go mbeidh an Ghaeilge mar phríomhtheanga na scoile agus a chur d'iachall ar na páistí an Béarla d'fhoghlaim. B'fhéidir go n-éireodh linn 'na dhiaidh sin.
Is dócha go bhfuil sé in am againn deire a chur leis an díospóireacht seo anois?
Níl an tAire anseo. Tá cúpla nóiméid agat.
Ní dóigh liom gur féidir liom óráid a dhéanamh laistigh de'n am, ach is féidir liom tosnú ar chuma ar bith. Aontaím lena lán dá ndúirt an cainteoir deireannach, ach ba mhaith liom rud éigin a chur leis—sé sin, nach amháin gur ceart dúinn an Ghaeilge féin a choimead ach go bhfuil orainn sprid na Gaeilge a choimead freisin. Ba chóir dúinn ár ndícheall a dhéanamh chun an sprid sin a chur i ngach rud a déantar sna scoileanna. Go dtí seo do bhíodh a lán cainnte mar gheall ar an teanga féin ach ní raibh dóthain cainnte á dhéanamh mar gheall ar sprid na náisiúntachta agus sprid na Gaeilge —an sprid sin a bhí taobh thiar de gach rud a rinneadh roime seo sa tír seo. Ni fheadar an féidir liom dul níos doimhne sa scéil anois ós rud é go bhfuil sé 7.30.