Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (13th Dáil) – Wednesday, 16 Jun 1948

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government (Resumed).

Mr. Childers

When the House adjourned last night, I was making reference to the Minister's plan in regard to the study of the provision of water supplies to houses in rural areas, and I had asked him to let the House know what are the plans he has in mind, alternative to the establishment of a special committee. I pointed out to him that it would take a considerable time to make such plans and that to abolish the committee merely because it was interfering with houses now being designed seemed on the face of it, shortsighted. I indicated that even if it were necessary to plan houses overriding preliminary decisions of this committee, it was nevertheless valuable for the committee to go on with its work.

I should like also to ask the Minister whether he is ensuring that the memorandum on housing standards issued by the former Minister is being closely examined by the local authorities. The memorandum included information on what could be regarded as good standards of house construction, in addition to those already enforced through the sanctioning of grants. It included information on such matters as the insulation of walls, the use of hollow-cast concrete and the use of certain materials for construction. It included also information on the type and dimensions of water supply systems, the size of rooms and the use of materials for partitioning walls and also provided some information on the provision of cupboard space to be included in the design of buildings where possible, and also information as to the desirability of installing such things as drying cupboards within the framework of the house. I should like the Minister to tell us if this memorandum is being closely followed, whether he has received the reactions of county managers and housing authorities generally to it and whether it has been found to have been of service.

Following on the issue of this memorandum during the term of office of the previous Minister, the officials whose duty it was to prepare this memorandum, so far as I recall, had just begun to consider whether or not they could provide standard specifications in respect of certain types of material. At the moment, as I understand it, there is a huge variety of sizes in respect of length, thickness and so on in such products as rainwater goods, copper piping, cisterns, sinks and the like. The suggestion was made that, in order to speed housing and to secure materials in greater supply, and particularly at lower prices, the Department might proceed to devise standard specifications for the ordinary type of house which would enable orders to be given on a very large scale by the different local authorities concerned, so that gradually suppliers would find that they would be able to reduce prices because the number of sizes and specifications had been very drastically reduced. That seemed to me at the time to be worthy of study and I should like to ask the Minister how far the investigation of that matter is proceeding.

I should also like to have some information from the Minister on the relation of the present labour shortage in certain areas not only to the types of houses which are being built and any determination he has made in regard to building licences but also in regard to the number of apprentices. So far as I can gather from reading the newspapers, there have been tentative moves on the part of the Ministers concerned to persuade certain unions to increase the number of apprentices. The unions in reply have said that among other conditions which they would insist on being observed if they so agreed, would be a guarantee of continuous work by the Dublin Corporation and the contractors thereto for a considerable period. The Minister, as a member of the Labour Party, should be in an ideal position to pursue that matter and to find out whether the conditions are possible of fulfilment. I should like very much to hear from him what recent information he has on the question of the number of apprentices allowed in certain classes of trades and in relation again to the volume of building operation.

There has been a great deal of talk since the election about the issue of building licences for luxury purposes, and I think it is necessary for this side of the House to point out once more that a vast amount of what can only be described as clotted nonsense was talked during the elections about the misuse of building materials and labour for building of a purely luxury type. It is only fair to the former Ministers, both the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Industry and Commerce, to keep on repeating these figures until finally the reckless statements of certain members of the inter-Party Government are stopped. The actual fact is that at no time during the past two financial years did the building licences, in terms of pounds, for recreational and tourist purposes exceed 5 per cent. of all building licences, so that the statements of people who pointed to cinemas being built at the expense of workers' houses are patently ridiculous.

In fact, going further into the figures —I have not got the very recent figures, but I am giving them approximately—the allocation of building licences for houses amounted to some 47 to 50 per cent. of the total building licences; for industrial production, power and fuel enterprises, to some 25 per cent.; for schools, colleges, churches and hospitals, to just over 10 per cent. I have already given the figures for recreational and tourist purposes. In respect of housing required for transport, the figure was 1.9 per cent.; Government building, 1.6 per cent.; maintenance, 1.7 per cent.; and distribution, shops, offices and warehouses, 7.3 per cent. These figures, I understand, have not varied very greatly from year to year. The question now at issue is whether the Minister is right in limiting the number of licences granted to houses which do not receive a subsidy.

The most recent figures I can secure in regard to the former Minister's attitude, of the building licences granted for housing are as follows: 37 per cent. were in respect of houses for local authorities and 26.8 per cent. in respect of houses of the same type being built by building societies and others for rent or sale. Of the remainder, only about 7.8 per cent. were houses above £2,000 in value and there was also a certain number of houses of the value of £1,100 to £2,000. These are fairly recent figures. The former Minister has already adverted to the desirability of not cutting out the building of houses of luxury type to the degree of 100 per cent. As the Minister for Local Government may well know, that effort in England by Mr. Aneurin Bevan, the Minister of Health, did not succeed. When he overstressed the question of workers' houses, he jammed the warehouses with materials and he had to modify slightly his plans in that regard.

I trust the Minister will take the advice of the former Minister, and, even though he must direct the great majority of building materials and labour towards workers' houses, that he will give each his due proportion. If a certain amount of building of all types is allowed to proceed, the Minister will find that he will escape temporary unemployment problems, and will escape the problem of finding that certain materials can only be used for houses of a more luxurious type; he will find that he can avoid all sorts of difficulties, if he takes a stern, but reasonable, view of the allocation of licences. If he takes the view of the former Minister for Local Government he will not go far wrong. He will find that 72 per cent. of the building licences went for housing, for industrial production and for the production of fuel and power.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he has considered that portion of the housing inquiry report dealing with differential rents. The committee reported that the system of providing differential rents for persons with different means was an admirable one and that matter was being studied. I would like to ask the Minister who, in his own position, must surely appreciate the value of such a scheme, whether he has any views on the matter.

I believe also that towards the close of the last Government's administration the Department had decided to recommend to the Minister that in allocating houses to persons coming from condemned buildings there should be more or less a mixture of tenants of various classes. To put into a particular area only large families, coming from basements, for example, in the City of Dublin, many of whom suffered from tuberculosis—to put a group of such people together in one housing area would not conduce to the very best standards. It would be better to provide a proportion of tenants who had, shall we say, a happier experience of life. That was found to be the case almost universally in Great Britain and other countries. I would like to ask the Minister whether he has considered that matter. It is obvious that one could not go very far in that direction, but to have a sprinkling of people in the area who had had a happier experience of life would be found to have many advantages and it would be very interesting to hear the Minister's views on that question.

With regard to the question of road maintenance and road development, the officials of the Department of Local Government reported that the programme of road restoration, preserving the present skin on the main roads and restoring county roads, had been completed by 30 per cent. Certain counties were behindhand owing to the diversion of labour to turf and tillage taken together during the summer period. In some counties, such as, I believe, Wicklow and Wexford, restoration had been proceeding at a higher rate. As the former Minister for Local Government indicated, a sum of £3,000,000 is being provided for road maintenance to local authorities, which is over £1,000,000 above the amount available from the Road Fund. Unless that extra sum had been provided from the central funds it would not have been possible to continue with the restoration of county roads. As the Minister must know, for the first time in the history of this country, for the third year running, grants are available for the repair of county roads. As before this the Road Fund provided only for the repair of main roads, the whole programme would have had to be cut out, and although many of the roads were damaged as a result of the haulage of turf, there would not have been any funds for their restoration.

The question which I would next like to ask the Minister is one which has already been asked by the former Minister for Local Government, Deputy MacEntee: Where is the money to come from to provide that £1,000,000? That question is an extremely serious one for the House to face. The cost of road maintenance and road improvement has increased by at least 50 per cent., while vehicle taxation has not increased in any like measure. Therefore, when the road restoration programme is being completed and road improvement commences from one to two years from now, if the Minister borrows from the Road Fund he will be placing a burden on the local authorities which would be impossible for them to carry. It is a very big problem for him to face. He has the difficulty of the 50 per cent. increase in roads costs and of an increase nothing like that in vehicle tax. He may have to consider raising the vehicle tax, but I think that is a course which should only be pursued if nothing else is possible. But at least he should not debit the Road Fund in the future for the repayment of that £1,000,000. That would not be good business. It would not be good business for agriculture or for industry and it would not be good business to make the Road Fund responsible for recoupment.

As the Minister may already know, in the course of the last six years there has been a new approach to road improvement work. There are some 50,000 miles of roads in this country of which some 10,000 miles are main roads, and of that 10,000 miles there are approximately 3,000 miles of important arterial roads. Twenty-five million pounds have already been spent since 1922 on the provision of good roads and the work has proceeded fairly well. Until recently there have been no universal standards for the improvement of roads. County surveyors more or less took their own initiative in widening roads, easing bends and providing certain amenities such as footpaths and cycle tracks and so forth. Now certain road standards have been adopted by the Department to provide a measure for roads by which roads can be improved according to the traffic density on them. The former Minister for Local Government approved of these road standards. They are roughly of this order. Where the vehicle density is over 400 cars per hour, it is essential to construct two carriage ways 24 feet wide with the appropriate footpaths, margins and cycle tracks; where there is density of some 100 to 400 cars per hour, it is necessary to have one carriage way 24 feet wide; in the case of roads carrying less traffic than that it was considered that the roadway could be built with safety 20 feet wide. The question then arose as to how far the Department should advise local authorities to plan ahead. It seemed to be reasonable to suppose that with full supplies of petrol traffic density would increase at the same rate as it did between 1928 and 1939. As the traffic density in 1928 was known in respect of the various roads, it would be possible to make an approximate plan, the conditions of which could be varied at the end of five-year periods and which could be varied by local authorities, the Minister for Local Government and the Department. Surveyors were appointed and are now working out the approximate cost of road improvement on the basis that road widths, at least, should be planned up to 1970. It would be reasonable to assume that the gradual mechanisation of traffic will increase unless there is a major economic depression and money will be saved to the ratepayers if, instead of chopping and changing, making the Cork road, for example, one foot wider in one place and three feet wider in another, it is decided to have increased widths on that road on a definite basis.

The Minister, I hope, will not have to face the criticism which we faced when in office in regard to the road plan. A lot of farmers, eager apparently to save rates, went around the country talking about our constructing luxury autobahns of a type which could never be afforded by the public. In actual fact, the programme is a most reasonable one as can be seen by the House when it is realised that the first-class road, the road with a double carriage way, 24 feet wide for each track, was only planned in respect of 125 miles for the first five years, or roughly 25 miles a year in the whole country. Only 25 miles of double carriage way roads are to be built each year. That is not an unreasonable proposition and is not one which would provide too great a burden on the taxpayers or the ratepayers.

As to the second-class roads, 24 feet wide, it was planned to improve them at the rate of some 220 miles per year. Again, that does not provide a very heavy burden. I am outlining the plans made by the former Government in order to assure the House that we felt we were not going beyond what was needed to be done and in order to persuade the Minister not to allow the Minister for Finance to take the £1,000,000 away from the Road Fund because it would be disastrous. Whether he continues to adopt our road standards and principles or whatever system he adopts, he will not have nearly enough money for that minimum of improvement which must be effected on the roads if he allows that money to be taken. Therefore, I should very much like to hear from him what is his present view on the matter.

There are a number of other minor problems about which a great many Deputies will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say. A grant was made from the Road Fund for certain very bad stretches along the main arterial roads of the country. Deputies from the West will know the appalling condition of the road from Enfield to the West. Deputies from Roscommon will know the very bad condition of parts of the main road leading from Dublin through Strokestown. There is another very bad portion of road going to Cork. A sum of, I think, £250,000, had been granted from the Road Fund for immediate repairs on these stretches of arterial road before the main improvement plan begins. I should like to ask the Minister whether the plans for the repair of those stretches of road are being pursued.

Money was also made available from the Road Fund to the Dublin Corporation, particularly with a view to repairing the appalling stretches of road where tram tracks still exist. I should like to ask the Minister if he has received any report from the Dublin Corporation as to whether they are doing anything to remove the tram tracks in various sections of the city and how far they have been able to plan to procure materials for spending that £100,000, which would not only give much-needed employment, particularly in the winter, but would go far towards restoring the roads of Dublin to pre-war condition.

There is also the very urgent question of doing something to improve the Bray road. This is only one small stretch of road, but it is used very widely. The Minister knows that the difficulties in arranging for compensation are very considerable and that the time which elapses before you can improve any road in County Dublin is very great indeed owing to the difficulties of acquisition. So far as I remember, the improvement of the Bray road will cost anything from £50,000 to £80,000 a mile and provide a ticklish financial and administrative problem for the commissioner of the Dublin County Council, and the Department when they consider the plans. It is a matter which should receive urgent and prior consideration by the Minister and the Department.

I should also like to ask the Minister how far the reorganisation of the engineering staffs throughout the country is proceeding. I think that about December last in the great majority of counties the final determination of what a good and efficient staff was to be had been completed. In most places the qualifications had been established for a certain number of additional engineers and, with the ending of the turf campaign, it should now be possible to provide a first-class engineering organisation in every local authority area. I should like to ask how far that has proceeded in the last four months and whether the Minister is satisfied that the engineering organisation of the country as a whole is adequate, modern, and able to carry out the duties efficiently.

One matter upon which we insisted with great force was the provision of sufficient clerical assistance for assistant engineers throughout the country so that they will have no excuse to stay in their offices in order to fill up forms and in order to do the pay sheet work which could be done by a minor clerical officer. One could almost say that the efficiency of assistant engineers depended directly upon the length of time they were able to be out on the roads. A considerable number of authorities, where there were no such clerical assistants appointed, agreed to appoint them. In other places the matter was under consideration. I, myself, from my experience in the Department, regard it as absolutely essential to see that county surveyors and their assistants are out of their offices as much as possible, supervising the work on the roads and seeing that good and efficient work is done at all times. I trust the Minister will press forward that necessary change in local authority administration.

Towards the end of last year, in fact even before then, the Minister for Finance had agreed to an increase in the engineering staff of the Local Government Department owing to the need to carry out more research upon the best method of constructing roads, owing to the need for greater inspection, not only when road works had been completed, but during their completion, in order to ensure the provision of the highest possible standards and to ensure that the taxpayers' money is spent to the best advantage. Indeed, the county surveyors would have no possible objection to that. Most of them would welcome more numerous interim inspections by Departmental engineers, particularly when the new plan is in operation. In fact, an increase of staff would be essential, in the first instance, to see that that plan of building roads according to certain standards is carried out efficiently. I trust the Minister for Finance is not going to allow the heavy hand to fall on that. From looking at the Estimates it appeared to me that there had not been sufficient increase for the engineering staff to allow for the increase in the number of officials which had been authorised by the former Minister for Finance. I may have read the figures wrongly. I hope my mind will be relieved by the Minister.

So far as the provision of engineers to do a certain amount of research work is concerned, that is absolutely vital to this country. We have received every year a mass of material from the British Road Research Department on the strength of concrete, the use of various kinds of bituminous mixtures, and the use of various new machines. A great deal of that does not apply to this country because of the rate of rainfall and special experiments have to be undertaken here. Unfortunately, for quite a considerable time the right kind of machinery has not been available for that purpose. More machinery, however, will be on the market in the future and more engineers will be required in the Department if something is to be done to reduce per mile the enormous cost of improving roads, particularly having regard to what I said earlier in regard to the increase in the taxation of vehicles and the cost of improving the roads, no matter what standards you adopt, taking only the minimum required for a proper standard in this country.

Another very fundamental step taken to improve the technical standards of road construction was insistence upon stone analysis. Good work had been done in providing roads in the past. I am not in any way complaining of the work of most of the surveyors but, as time went on, both in America and in England and in this country it was found possible to improve the standards of the stone used. It was found possible to measure absolutely in a laboratory the extent to which stone would polish when mixed with tar and literally millions of pounds could be saved if stone is used for the main roads which does not polish easily. Literally, millions of pounds can be saved in the next 20 years if proper stone analysis is insisted upon as the absolute sine qua non for the granting of money from the Road Fund for road work.

At the end of last year a very large number of samples of stone had been sent to the British Road Research Laboratory and to the universities here for analysis with a view to securing stone of proper quality, raising the standard throughout the country and providing central quarries for work on the main roads. The Department was not concerned so much with minor roads. The Department was concerned with the 3,000 miles of main arterial roads and certain important link roads. It has been found, contrary to what might be imagined, that the extra cost of bringing stone a considerable distance is negligible compared with the saving in money through not having to renew the surface at frequent intervals. Any person who has been through Wicklow will have observed the extraordinary resilience of the stone, what is known as its rugosity. Some of the roads there have lasted for ten years and have not shown the faintest sign of polishing. In Wicklow, almost all the stone available is very suitable for road work. In other parts of the country limestone only is available, and is highly unsuitable. We made a rough calculation that it only cost 1/4 more per square yard to bring stone over 20 miles by lorry in order to ensure an extra good surface for roads under heavy traffic. I hope the Minister will encourage the Department to continue the work of providing lectures for county surveyors on modern methods of road construction and by visits to areas where very first class work is being done. He will find this an advantage in overcoming his difficulties in the increase of the cost of road improvement.

When we left office circulars had been issued to all local authorities encouraging them to provide adequate protective clothing for workers, clothing of an ordinary type for any type of work, clothing of the type suited to tar spraying and to work with crushers and grinders where there was a tremendous outflow of dust. Replies came in that were fairly satisfactory, but there were a number of areas where there were difficulties to clear up and advice to be given. I hope the Minister will pursue that matter. I feel sure he will regard it as in his own interest to pursue the matter of providing proper clothing for workers.

The same thing can be said of the conditions for wet-time working under local authorities. Of course, the Opposition, as it then was, always blamed the Minister for Local Government, not only for relating in some way agricultural wages and road workers' wages but also wherever the wet-time conditions were bad for the worker, the Minister was automatically blamed, as though he himself had imposed severer conditions in a particular area than in other areas, whereas most Deputies should know that the wet-time conditions are a matter for the county manager and also for the county council who have to raise the money to pay the workers if the wet-time conditions are improved.

Mr. Pattison

Did the Minister not refuse to sanction that several times? It is a matter for the local authority and the Minister always refused sanction.

Mr. Childers

Mr. Murphy

Minor? Did the Deputy say "minor"?

Mr. Childers

Yes. If the Minister says "major", I am only too glad if he can do anything to speed up the matter.

Mr. Murphy

I said the Act was a joke.

Mr. Lemass

If the Minister will interrupt the Deputy, let the Minister at least be good mannered about it. These are corner-boy tactics.

Mr. Childers

The Minister has already good legislation in regard to that matter. Another question which came to our attention was that of the inspection of local authority cottages for repair purposes. Arrangements were made to insist that all cottages would be personally inspected by the cottage rent collectors. It was very difficult to persuade and to advise local authorities that that was desirable but, by the middle of last year, most of the county councils had arranged for regular inspection. There had been a practice whereby rent collectors collected rents in the market and very often never visited the houses. As a result, repairs became more and more costly and delayed. There were other reasons, of course, for repairs becoming more costly. There was the difficulty of securing materials. But it would be well for the Minister to ensure that the regular inspection of council cottages for repair purposes continues, because that is the only way of catching up on arrears of repairs as a result of the wartime period and reducing the average cost of repairs per cottage.

I should like to ask the Minister whether he has any figures with regard to the purchase of cottages under the relevant Acts. There were difficulties in securing title in a great many cases, which caused delay in purchase schemes that were being carried out. I should like to ask the Minister whether he has any further report for the House on that matter.

In regard to the establishment of the Library Council, while the Library Council would naturally have a very free hand, it will need the Minister's advice and guidance as to how to proceed. One of the first things we hoped it would do would be to appoint two surveyors who would go around the country and perhaps visit other countries and prepare what might be described as an ideal library plan for each local authority based on the number of inhabitants, rateable valuation, and the particular needs of the area. The Carnegie Trust very kindly offered to give a grant for that purpose as a final gift since the Library Council has taken over responsibility for the management of the Central Library. I hope that matter will be pursued because it is the first and most necessary thing to be done if the library service is to be generally improved.

I should next like to advert to problems in connection with road traffic and road safety. There are a number of administrative changes required in the present legislation but, as I understand I am not allowed to deal with those matters, I simply point out the necessity for raising the maximum fines allowable for certain road traffic offences which are based on a cost of living which has been far surpassed in the last 20 years. There is also the problem of Dublin traffic congestion which probably divides itself into two parts and is of national as well as of local importance. The first part relates to the fact that Dublin City probably has more T junctions close to its centre than any other capital city in the world, while the existence of Trinity College in the centre of the city provides a traffic problem such as hardly exists elsewhere. The Dublin road sketch development plan clearly provides for two bridges, one below the Custom House, and one somewhere near Capel Street. Unless that engineering problem is considered very rapidly there is nothing the Guards can do to prevent traffic congestion. It is growing and growing continuously in the central area of Dublin. Unless there is planning, probably a most unpleasant regulation would be to prohibit the parking of cars, even temporarily, in a very wide area in the centre of Dublin, but whatever is done about parking regulations or whatever is done to provide more parking spaces unless the Minister uses his influence to have the construction of these two bridges considered, the parking congestion problem in Dublin will grow and grow. The cost will be very heavy. It will take, I suppose, at least two or three years to design, construct and complete the bridges, and yet the problem is one that cannot be delayed very long. I do not envy the Minister in having to handle that problem. The fact is there and it cannot be left entirely to the Dublin Corporation because, obviously, the huge number of cars coming to the city from all over the country makes it a national problem.

The other solution would be to alter the regulations in regard to parking. That is equally a matter where the Minister will need to give some advice and some encouragement. So far as I can recollect there were 800 parking places provided for motor cars that were not used between 11 a.m. and, say, 4 p.m., when parking is most prevalent and when the largest numbers of cars are parked. It is estimated that, whereas there are some 1,500 parking spaces available in Dublin, there will be a need for some 4,000 parking spaces within ten years. That provides another headache for the Minister and the Dublin Corporation. The difficulty of solving the problem is very great. Any proposal, such as the construction of underground parks, is bound to be enormously costly. The cost of a single ramp or parking station to provide accommodation for 600 cars would run into something between £50,000 and £60,000. The question arises how far the ratepayer on the one hand and the owner of a car on the other should be responsible both for the capital cost of providing such parking places and their maintenance. That is another matter that will require the attention of the Minister. Some temporary relief was to be given in this matter by stricter parking regulations, by providing in the centre of the city more temporary parks on building sites. Some of those have been provided and others have not. The intention was to provide more parking places.

The actual fact which the Minister has to face is that this is a problem that is almost beyond the Dublin Corporation which will need his assistance and advice. Unless something drastic is done, there will come a time when people who own cars who go to work in the city or to their business in the city will have to park their cars along the canals and out into the regions of Ranelagh and Rathmines. There will be nowhere else to park them. It seems to me that some kind of committee should be appointed to study that matter. I have not got the figures with me, but that statement is not an exaggeration—that unless something very drastic is done cars will be parked in the suburbs of Dublin within the next ten years, assuming that not 2,000 but 4,000 cars will need to find parking space. That is not an exaggerated statement and requires early and constant planning.

I do not think there is very much I need say about road traffic safety. The Minister has only to carry on with the plans made by the former Government in that regard. I would like to encourage him with regard to the provision of more Irish films. I would like to say that the provision of Irish-made films for road traffic safety, according to the present standards of the Minister for Finance, is hopelessly uneconomic if we believe in having Irish-made films. You can buy films from foreign countries that are quite suitable for showing here for £50 or £60. For £75 you can purchase the rights in regard to them outright, and have six or seven films circulating at the one time, to be seen by the schoolchildren in the schools and by the general public in the cinemas. We believed in what the Minister for Finance would call a waste of the taxpayers' money by getting an Irish-made film costing £1,500 and if necessary getting another Irish-made film, so as to provide a fresh one each year. Although the Irish-made film has a certain value which may reduce the number of deaths due to road traffic accidents due to its local character, we still say that is economic and we are not ashamed of it. I hope that the Minister will be able to prevail against the Minister for Finance in having Irish-made films produced rather than go on getting foreign-made films at a cheaper rate.

I have some figures with regard to road traffic safety propaganda. Last year there were 170 killed in road accidents and some 3,000 injured. A sum of £7,000 was allocated for road safety propaganda from the Road Fund. This amount would improve from two to three miles of very minor narrow main roads out of a total of 50,000 miles of roads. In order to help reduce the number of deaths from road accidents, the Minister may need to have available a very much larger sum of money for road improvements. Deputy O'Higgins, in the course of his speech, referred to the relation of road improvements to a reduction of accidents. If he will study the figures he will find that the easing of bends on roads and the general improvement of roads has the effect of reducing fatigue in the case of drivers, but does not directly reduce accidents. So far as I can find, in only about 10 per cent. of the cases where deaths occurred, were they due either to road conditions or to the condition of the vehicles. In actual fact, the vast majority of the deaths were due to the carelessness of drivers. That is a big problem in regard to traffic safety. The roads must be so designed as to reduce fatigue, which increases the length of time the driver takes to react to a new situation. I hope that the Minister, with the advice of the Minister for Justice who is the enabling Minister in this matter, will see that the regulations for enforcing sobriety on the roads will be made very strict. The number of cases of deaths, due to drink, in the last year has been appalling.

I think it is not an exaggeration to say that the Gardaí although they have no legal proof would agree that one in every three deaths and injuries on the roads at the present time is due to partial intoxication. It is not intoxication that can be measured or assessed in any court because the persons involved are not in the legal sense intoxicated. It provides a problem for the Minister and, to my mind, the main problem in dealing with road traffic safety. One third of the deaths took place in the Dublin area. There again the Minister will have to advise the Minister for Justice in regard to that matter. He will find that the majority of the deaths took place not in the centre of the city but along the wide main thoroughfares. He will find that the deaths took place along Clontarf Road, which is bounded by the sea on one hand; on the North Circular Road, and on Merrion Road, where the roads are wide and cars can get up speed. The Minister will find, unpleasant as it may be, that there is a certain case for an absolute speed limit in the whole of the Dublin Metropolitan area in order at least to encourage drivers to reduce speed on those long straight stretches where three quarters of the deaths have taken place—not in the central congested area where the traffic is going too slowly to cause many deaths.

During the last three years the arrears of audits were eliminated and I trust the auditing staff and the inspector of audits will have the Minister's kindly eye in order to ensure that they are carried out in an up-to-date way. Among the results of bringing audits up-to-date was a great improvement in the efficiency of county management. It obviously had a tremendous moral effect on all local authority officials once the audits were carried out regularly. An enormous improvement took place generally, too, in the last three years in county administration. Many faults were eliminated. I hope that work will continue. I hope the auditing staff will be given every encouragement by the Minister in carrying out their work punctually.

I have nothing more to say except to express the hope that the Minister, when he considers the County Management Act and the functions of the county managers, will realise that any substitute would be difficult to find. There has to be some executive officer in a local authority. The actual facts are that in a great many areas local authorities are not exercising the powers available to them. There is a certain comparison between a local authority and the county manager which exists between the secretary of a Department and a Government.

There is nothing to prevent a much closer supervision of a county manager's work without any recourse to legislation. There is nothing to prevent a repetition in a local form of what goes on in this House in connection with the preparation of Estimates and the reporting of the work done by Government Departments in consideration of the moneys to be voted for the coming year.

There are a great many local authorities who have no special roads committee to examine the work done on the roads and to examine the provision of moneys for a future period. A great deal of the type of administrative work done in this House can be repeated by the local authorities thus giving them far closer control on the work of county managers. I trust that whatever else may be in the Minister's mind he has no intention of doing away with the system of the appointment of staff by county managers.

Political influence is almost inevitable if staff appointments are not carried out through the medium of such institutions as the Civil Service Commissioners or the Appointments Commission or under the direction of the Minister for Local Government as at present provided for in the case of minor officials of local authorities. The Minister will, no doubt, be aware of the fact that an enormous book of regulations has been sent out to all the local authorities telling them how to appoint practically every type of official and enabling the county manager to use his discretion.

That system, in addition to avoiding an enormous amount of correspondence with the Department, should make it unnecessary for a local authority to have to appeal to the Minister in order to appoint an extra typist on its staff, once the regulations are understood and some universal standards are adopted. The methods of appointment are also provided in these regulations, thus avoiding any political influence and at the same time giving fairer opportunities to all persons desiring to be employed. In many instances the examination papers are actually brought to Dublin to be examined so as to ensure a complete absence of local influence. I trust that the Minister will allow the county manager or some executive official to appoint the staff in order to avoid a source of political influence in appointments which would be inevitable, however honest the members of the local authority may be. The pressure brought to bear on them would be so excessive that no man, even with the most honest intentions, could avoid exercising it. We in the former Government gradually eliminated that evil through the making of the regulations in connection with the County Management Act.

Mr. C. Lehane

Of the moneys to be provided for in this Estimate I think I understood the Minister to say that 88 per cent. were in respect of housing. Therefore, I feel that the major consideration that must operate in our minds is the manner in which these moneys will be expended in a review of the policy of the Department of Local Government for the coming year in regard to the solution of what must be considered one of our major national problems. I do not think any Deputy could quarrel with that description. There are people living in this city to-day who, if they were aware of the course that public business followed in this House and if they were aware that under this Estimate the housing problem was being considered, would be awaiting with anxious interest the deliberations of this Dáil.

Of the population of the whole State, 22 per cent. is concentrated in the Dublin City area and it is there that the real major housing problem exists. Representing a city constituency as I do, I feel that it is right that the attention of the Minister and of the Dáil should be directed to the circumstances under which many of our people live. There are at the moment in Dublin City 30,817 families living in tenements. There are 18,936 families living in one room and there are 13,625 families living in dwellings unfit for habitation—in tenements, in cottages and in stables. I would not like to appear on this Estimate to be attempting in any way to secure debating points or points of Party propaganda. This is a problem of such magnitude and such seriousness that the best that is in the minds of the Deputies on both sides of this House should be concentrated on a sincere and honest effort to arrive at a solution. Deputy Childers, in a rather elegant phrase, referred to the "clotted nonsense" that had been talked by various people concerning luxury building and its relationship to the housing problem. I am prepared to concede to Deputy Childers that exaggerated statements may have been made from time to time. I am not conscious personally of having made any of them, but I would be prepared to make any exaggerated statement that I thought was necessary, if it would waken the public conscience to a realisation of the inhuman and unchristian conditions under which there are people living in Dublin City and in other places throughout the country to-day.

With all respect to the Minister and his Department, I think he must approach this problem, and the search for a solution, in a more revolutionary manner than that which he has indicated to us. The people must be wakened out of their apathy, the Deputies in this House must be wakened out of their apathy, on this question of housing. I suggest to the Minister also that it is a problem which must be approached on a national basis. The Minister has set up, as Deputies are aware, a consultative council on housing to deal with the situation as it exists in Dublin City, in the Borough of Dún Laoghaire and in Dublin County. I think that council may serve a very useful function, but I hope that the Minister will not rely too much on it, and I suggest to him that the setting up of a small national housing board to direct, on a nation-wide basis, a drive for the better housing of our people might give very satisfactory results.

Various difficulties stand in the way. There are difficulties, we are told, of labour shortages, of shortages in supplies and in administration. I would like to refer the Minister to a little piece of evidence which he can see for himself with his own eyes, as an instance of what can be done when the incentive is there. Down in the North County Dublin, on the borders of County Meath, at a place called Mosney, a holiday camp was run up in record time to provide for the accommodation of tourists and holiday-makers. If buildings can be erected of that nature and with that speed, to provide recreational facilities for tourists and holiday-makers, then I would urge on the Minister that, with similar speed and with greater urgency, it should be possible to make a contribution at any rate of an immediate nature towards the alleviation of the lot of the people living in insanitary dwellings in this city.

Deputy Childers referred to the necessity for adherence to certain standards. To anybody who considers on the one hand the appalling urgency of the problem and on the other the necessity for planning for the future, that is a conflict which must present itself; but if that conflict arises in the Minister's mind, I think I am justified in urging upon him—though I say this with a certain amount of hesitation— that high standards and long-term planning must give way before the urgency of providing some type of accommodation for the people who are now living under circumstances which mean that they, or at any rate some members of their families, are condemned to death. That is what it means. There are tenements in this city where to bring children into the world and attempt to rear them simply means that as soon as they are born they are condemned to death by tuberculosis or gastro-enteritis or some of the many other ailments and diseases which spring from insanitary housing conditions.

I am aware of the very excellent work being done by the Minister for Health and I am aware of the very comprehensive plans that the Minister for Health has for the hospitalisation of the country. I would urge upon the House and upon the Minister for Local Government that, unless something can be done to end the insanitary housing conditions under which so many of our people live, the work being done by the Department of Health is only a waste of time. I have directed most of my remarks to conditions in Dublin City-I am not to be taken as suggesting that there are not rural slums which also require the Minister's attention. It is for that reason that I urge upon the Minister the necessity for national planning and for the setting up of a national housing board. I do not think this problem can be tackled by the Minister and his Department alone because he will require the co-operation of the Minister for Industry and Commerce as well. It should be possible with the co-operation of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Local Government to create a pool of building materials upon which the Minister could draw for the housing needs of local authorities.

In that connection I would urge upon the Minister the necessity for a proper investigation of building costs. I am not in a position to speak as an expert on this matter. I have not got that comprehensive grasp of the problem which Deputy Childers disclosed. I am only voicing to the Minister a fairly widespread feeling amongst the general public that building costs have been excessive in the past and that, in particular, the profits made by builders' providers are ripe—to put it mildly— for examination and for a fairly close scrutiny. People in the timber trade have informed me that a big strand of timber which can be sold to a builder at the moment at a cost of £126 to £130 could be imported into this country at a figure which would permit of the sale to the actual builders of such timber somewhere about the £92 to £94 mark. I suggest that the costs of building and the profits of builders' providers could very usefully be the subject of examination by the Minister in collaboration with the Department of Industry and Commerce.

I would urge upon the Minister further, that greater consideration should be given to the possibility of utilising direct labour on local authority schemes. I do not want to tie myself to a definite percentage. My inclination would be to say to the Minister that direct labour should be utilised wherever it is possible for him to procure such labour and wherever it is possible to utilise such labour. Certainly the question of the utilisation of direct labour is one which should be investigated in the fullest possible manner.

Deputy Childers referred to the nonsense that was talked about luxury building. We on these benches are quite prepared to leave ourselves open to a repetition of a similar accusation from Deputy Childers because we again urge upon the Minister the stoppage of all building which is of a purely luxury nature and the concentration in the future on building plans for the white collar workers and on building schemes under the control of local authorities.

The difficulty of obtaining labour has been referred to in this debate. I would urge upon the Minister that one of the surest ways of overcoming that difficulty and one of the surest ways of recalling from England the skilled tradesmen who have emigrated there in the last ten years is by guaranteeing to them continuous employment on local authority schemes here. In the absence of such a guarantee I do not think we will be able to get these people to come back. This is an emergency problem and the Minister will have to tackle it by emergency methods. The traditional method of building will not give us the 20,000 houses that are immediately required. Even if the Minister were to provide 20,000 local authority houses in the space of five to seven years for Dublin City and County, at the expiration of that period, through the obsolescence of existing houses, we would require probably a further 10,000. I do not believe our building industry, relying on traditional methods, will be able to provide these houses, and the Minister will have to get away from traditional methods if houses are to be provided.

I do not feel myself qualified to urge the merits of any particular type of prefabricated house upon the Minister. Whether by the provision of prefabricated houses or by some other method, other than the traditional method, the normal building industry will have to be augmented in its efforts. I understand that recently a hospital structure was contracted for. I understand that when the Minister for Health investigated the possibility of having the construction work completed in six months he was told that it was impossible. I understand that when he insisted that it should be possible a firm undertook to put up the structure in two months.

I think the Minister should refuse to allow himself to be hidebound in any way by the conventions or traditions of the building industry. He should be prepared to go outside traditional methods in order to attack this problem. It is with some difficulty that we on these benches approach this Estimate, because our feeling is that it will be only after the financial policy of Clann na Poblachta has been brought into effect that this problem can be properly tackled. At the moment the tenant purchaser of a local authority house, of a Dublin Corporation house, who pays £1 per week rent, is paying 10/6 by way of interest and bank charges, while 9/6 represents the reduction of the capital amount advanced. Be that as it may, the Minister, I feel, will have the goodwill and co-operation of all Parties in the House if he can bring to this problem of the proper housing of all our people the vigour and enthusiasm and energy which it requires.

With regard to county managers and the Managerial Act, we of the Clann na Poblachta Party, favouring as we do a policy of decentralisation, would urge upon the Minister—I do not think there is much need to urge it on the present Minister—the vesting of the fullest possible power and authority in local bodies, subject to this proviso, that no sectional interest should be allowed under any circumstances to stand in the way of the greatest possible speed being used in the drive for the proper housing of the people. If there are additional powers that the Minister may need, he should ask the House for them. Delays have been occasioned in the past, due to the fact that the selfishness of individuals operated to hold up local schemes of considerable importance. Not very long ago we had the spectacle of an important drainage and sewerage scheme in the County Borough of Dún Laoghaire being held up for a period of years by one individual. I urge upon the Minister that if he anticipates difficulties of that kind he should come to the House and look for the necessary powers in order to surmount them.

Reference was made by Deputy Childers to the need for a speed limit. A number of tragic occurrences have taken place within the past few years and they reinforce powerfully what Deputy Childers has said. It is a matter which merits the Minister's serious consideration. A very strong case could be made for the imposition of a speed limit, particularly in Dublin City and County.

The Minister should consider at an early date the claims of the lower paid employees of local authorities throughout the country. I have in mind people who are assistant surveyors and assistant engineers and who in many instances have been appointed on a temporary basis. That temporary employment may last 25 or 30 years and some officers may be all their lives in the service of a local authority, but, their appointment being temporary, their remuneration is at a figure which I suggest is inadequate.

I should like to bring to the Minister's notice one matter of considerable importance. As the law stands local authorities have not the power to alter the names of public roads or streets. It may seem a matter of a very minor nature but I think I am entitled to suggest it to the Minister on this Estimate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to deal only with administration. The Minister cannot do what is suggested without legislation. The Deputy is suggesting legislation and that is entirely irregular on this Estimate.

Mr. C. Lehane

With all respect, I was not suggesting legislation but the alteration of existing regulations.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think that is tantamount to legislation.

Mr. C. Lehane

I bow to your ruling. I ask the Minister earnestly to approach the problem of erecting proper houses for our people. He should consider that as one of the major problems confronting the country. It constitutes an emergency and it should be tackled by emergency methods. No vested sectional interests should be allowed to offer successful opposition.

Mr. P.J. Burke

This is a Department which seriously interests everybody here and in the country. The Minister for Local Government will have a big debt to clear up in the matter of housing. No Minister could possibly grapple with the housing shortage. We all know of it. If I may put it this way, it has been handed down to us traditionally. We have had 25 years of native government. We were going on very well up to 1938. A lot of houses were built in that year and there were a lot built also in 1939. Then the war came and that put us back again. The Minister at the present time is faced with the problem of making up the leeway that has been lost and of replacing the wretchedly bad houses that were handed over to us 25 years ago. There is the slum problem, the problem of overcrowding and the large number of people who have no houses at all.

I have heard many suggestions as to the solution of the housing problem as a whole, and while I am essentially a democrat, I think this is one Department in respect to which I would be inclined to agitate for dictatorial powers in order that house building might be expedited throughout the country. No matter what wages workers may have, no matter how excellent our hospitalisation system or the conditions of employment of our workers may be, unless our workers are provided with decent houses, decent homes to which they can go after the day's work, all the other advantages they enjoy are of little use to them. No matter what Minister may be in office, he has the sympathy of every Deputy in his efforts to try to deal with this problem. We are all aware of the magnitude of that problem, and I suggest our efforts should be directed at first towards trying to discover some method of expediting the building of houses. Speaking of my own constituency, County Dublin, I know that it takes quite a long time to acquire sites. The previous Minister for Local Government achieved considerable progress in the constituency in that way. He asked the county commissioner for plans. The result is that in County Dublin plans have already been submitted for a considerable number of new houses and a number of sites have been acquired, but, taken on the whole, the acquisition of sites is a very slow process. I take this opportunity of suggesting to landowners that they might co-operate with local authorities and with the Minister in expediting the acquisition of these sites. Speaking for my own constituency, I should like to see more engineers employed to deal with that matter. Whilst the previous Minister sanctioned the employment of all the engineers required, I still believe that it is necessary to employ more engineers to deal with this highly specialised work.

Turning to the question of building by private enterprise, I say that we would be in a very bad position in this country as far as housing is concerned were it not for the work carried out by private enterprise. The recent Housing Act, which is a measure that the people of the country greatly appreciate, caters for the particular type of worker with a moderate salary who can be served by private enterprise if he can possibly avail of the provisions of the Act. He is also assisted by the fact that loans will be available under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Scheme when that particular section of the Act is operated. I believe that were it not for all the work carried out throughout the country by private enterprise local authorities would be in a very much worse position to-day so far as the housing problem is concerned.

Mr. Hickey

The Deputy does not suggest that private enterprise is responsible for the work carried out by local authorities.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Deputy can speak later and I shall not interrupt him. Under the Fianna Fáil régime thousands of houses were constructed by private enterprise. Many small farmers were provided with houses in this way. Some of them, although they lived in the wide open spaces, had very primitive housing conditions. All this work was carried out by private enterprise. The special grants for the type of houses visualised by the previous Minister—a five-roomed house with a capacity of 1,200 square feet—were also an inducement to the white collared worker to build his own house by private enterprise and helped local authorities inasmuch as it eased the demand on these authorities for houses which they were able to provide.

So far as County Dublin is concerned, as a result of a question I put last week dealing with the housing position, I have got a big list of houses that have been let out for contract already. Some of them were let out for contract last January. In that connection I should like to refer to the problem mentioned by Deputy Con Lehane, namely the cost of building. There is definitely a problem created by the fact that even a council cottage now costs £1,300, £1,400 or even up to about £1,700 and £1,800. There is one contract entered into in County Dublin at the moment and if the houses which are to be erected under it were let at an economic rent it would be 23/9 per week. The cost of building is definitely very high. We are told that there is a shortage of skilled labour and the suggestion has been made here that we should carry on housing by direct labour. I have seen one housing scheme in County Dublin advertised three times before any contractor submitted a tender for it. Why that is, I do not know. If it were possible to split up housing schemes into groups of smaller numbers of houses, smaller contractors would be induced to tender and there would be more competition for the building of these houses. As a result overhead charges might be reduced. We have heard some talk about prefabricated houses but the first difficulty in connection with such houses, a difficulty of which, I am sure, the Minister is aware, is that you would be up against the trade unions. We know the position here in that regard and I am not going to say anything more about it.

Captain Cowan

It might be as well to tell us all about it.

Mr. P.J. Burke

A lot of stones have been thrown with regard to the Dublin County Council and the dictatorial powers vested in the commissioners, both the present commissioner and his predecessor. Why was the commissioner sent there? He was sent there as a result of an appeal by the people of the county——

Captain Cowan

When were the stones thrown? They were not thrown in this debate.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I know that Deputy Cowan is so verbose that he nearly bursts, but if he will allow me to speak he can speak after me. The Minister at the time was inundated with letters from ratepayers asking that something be done. These were not letters from Fianna Fáil ratepayers but from people who felt that the position was that they were paying rates while others were not. The council was controlled at the time by Fine Gael and unless you were a member of the Fine Gael Party, you got no cottage.

Mr. O'Leary

How were picture houses and dance halls built during the war?

Mr. McGrath

Is the Deputy referring to the Four Provinces Club?

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Dublin County Commissioner started providing a number of parks along the coast. He put up much-needed public conveniences, and I should like to see that work continued because it gives employment and does not interfere with the supply of materials required for housing. People go out there; these small parks were availed of and the bathing shelters were availed of, and public conveniences are very much needed. I have dealt with Howth on a few occasions before. The Claremont strand on Howth is frequented by thousands of people on Sunday evenings and Dublin Corporation have not provided public conveniences anywhere where the people could get clean drinking water, fountains or shelters of any kind, and it is just the same as it was when this country was found first away back in the dark ages. That should not be the position. Places like Howth, which is so near the City of Dublin, and other places along both the north and the south coasts where people can get out for a few hours in the evening should have some conveniences.

Another recent Bill passed by Fianna Fáil empowered local authorities to acquire playgrounds or sportsfields especially for children. From the point of view of the health of the child whereever a site can be acquired in rural Ireland for a playground people should encourage the local authorities to carry out that work.

Another matter I would like to discuss is that the old Dublin County Council acquired sites anywhere and everywhere and did not mind whether they built houses in a hollow or on a height. We have instances of cottages being flooded and in my estimation cottages should not be built on such sites. Some were built over 20 years ago and there is no use trying to carry out reclamation now.

I welcome administration by local authorities but I think that they should at least be a little far seeing and see further than the parish pump. That is one reason why the then Minister was forced into the position of having to bring in the Managerial Act. I have heard a reference from the Minister to the clearing of derelict sites. Under the present commissioner a number of derelict sites were cleared and I cannot see any place where the county commissioner failed under that section of the Act. It may be different in other areas but I do not know about that.

With regard to the repair of council cottages, a number of cottage owners in County Dublin are anxious to purchase their cottages and I thoroughly agree with them because it is the ambition of all of us to have a home. But the cottages should be put into excellent repair. I know it is in the section of the Act that the cottages should be handed over in proper repair, but I would like to ask the Minister to find out whether the cottages which have been purchased were in fact handed over in a proper manner giving the people the opportunity of carrying on and not having to spend money on it a year after purchasing their cottage.

I am going to deal with a rather hackneyed subject. I do not know who is to blame for that. It is the Balbriggan outflow sewerage. I would welcome either private enterprise or a dictator to take charge of some of those things because they are too long in abeyance. One man mentioned private enterprise. Private enterprise, when a man can get along and do his job is all right and if the Minister has not a large enough staff to do the work he should do something about it. Here I would like to mention that in dealing with the officers of that Department I have always received courtesy and consideration. I do not like the position at Balbriggan and I do not think it is fair. I put down a few questions about it from time to time but the matter is still going on and no decision has been reached to carry out this work. This work is most important. If you go there in summer you will remember you were there and I would like to ask the Minister to expedite the work.

The county commissioner sent on the particulars regarding a cemetery in Donabate quite a long time ago. I had a question down about it from time to time, but the answer was not as satisfactory as I would like it to be because this is one of the matters which I believe could be expedited.

I have referred to the North County Dublin regional water scheme and I would like the Minister in his reply to give me some information on that point. I would like to know also how the Tallaght and Rathcoole water scheme is going on. I would ask the Minister, where it is possible, to get water into every part of County Dublin.

The question of county council workers was referred to. The previous Minister for Local Government was very helpful to me when I made representations to him with reference to protective clothing for road workers. I want to make another request to this Minister that road workers working in a quarry or quarries, especially in limestone quarries, for five or six months, or maybe the whole year round, should get an extra supply of protective clothing, shirts and boots. It would be only just and I feel that their work demands that.

Another matter is the pay of temporary engineers. I know some engineers in the Dublin County Council who have been working quite a while on temporary pay. It is a job for the county commissioner of course, but I think that a man working a long time in a temporary capacity and doing good work should be considered for annual increments. I am referring to one man in particular who deals with housing in County Dublin. He has been working in a temporary capacity for the past three years and I believe that he is not entitled to any increment because he is temporary. I would ask the Minister's favourable consideration for engineers of that type. It would encourage them to do better work and when they were satisfied, we could expect better results.

Another matter we are concerned with in County Dublin is the provision of car parks, especially for the seaside resorts. Last year in Skerries, Donabate, Rush, Malahide and Howth, we found ourselves with no car-parking space at all. Local committees have also on a few occasions brought to my attention the need for a speed limit in these seaside resorts. Last year I had to have a few children who were hurt on the strand at Donabate removed to hospital. The position is that cars park on the strand because there is no parking space for them. I suppose they have a right to go on the strand. The result is that you have at least 4,000 or 5,000 cars there and children get hurt by these cars on the strand. The problem is acute in the County Dublin, being so near the city. Some of these accidents could be eliminated if car parks were made available where the local authority advised the Minister that they are necessary. Last year at the peak time there were at least four or five miles of road which nobody could get up or down. Of course the weather was very fine and people who had cars went to the nearest seaside place owing to the petrol shortage. Making a car park of the strand is all right, but I would prefer if a car park were provided off the strand and leave the strand for young people and others who want to use it. In that way, they would not be interfered with by the cars travelling up and down along the strand.

I wish the Minister luck in the big job he has in front of him. The groundwork has been done for him and he can carry on from that jumping off ground. Materials and supplies will be available. It is not a job that any person would envy, because the Minister is going to have a lot of trouble and worry. The housing problem is a national one. We are only too anxious to co-operate with or help the Minister in anything he can do for improving the housing position, local administration, and local conditions as a whole. When the houses are built, the people who deserve them most should get them and not those who belong to one political Party or another.

Sir John Esmonde

On the occasion of the introduction by the Minister of his first Estimate I should like to offer him my best wishes in the vast and complicated task that lies ahead of him in connection with the problems with which he has to deal. I should like to pay this tribute to the Minister—that in the short time he has been in that position in any contact I have had with him on behalf of my constituents I have realised that we have in him a man who possesses a very valuable quality, a quality that should be present when difficulties have to be solved, and that is the quality of sympathy with those who have certain problems to put up. I believe that, if the Minister approaches those problems with a quality such as that, he is going a long way towards their solution. Having regard to his opening statement on this Estimate, I believe that he is going to approach these problems in an atmosphere of realism.

I am in agreement with some of the speakers, particularly with the speech of Deputy Con Lehane, that this enormous problem which we have to face and which is the principal problem with which the Minister has to deal, the problem of providing our people with adequate housing, is one which should be lifted above the controversy of Party politics and should be approached by Deputies on every side of the House from the standpoint of contributing to its solution in the very best atmosphere possible. I do not think sufficient stress has been laid upon the reasons why we are faced with such a housing problem at present. Very often, in order to cure an ill, it is advisable to inquire into its origin. One of the ingredients in the origin of this problem with which we are faced is the fact, whether we like it or not, that for a considerable number of years past the lot of the private builder, the person who builds the privately-built houses as against what are referred to as local authority houses, has been a very difficult one. Whatever may be the number or the quality of those houses that were built at the beginning of this century, whatever condition they may have got into, these houses did originate from the activity of the private individual. That particular person has, for a number of reasons, been driven away from the category of those who can now by their industry and initiative contribute to the solution of the problem. For that reason, the provision of houses for the working classes has been thrown back almost entirely upon the shoulders of the local authorities. These authorities have to shoulder the entire burden. I should like to see some policy originated whereby, in some way, the private builder could be brought into the arena again in order to contribute to the solution of the working-class housing problem.

The Minister announced that some time ago there was necessity for the provision of 100,000 houses. That, in relation to our population, is an enormous objective. He envisages that of those 100,000, 60,000 will be provided by the local authorities and the remaining 40,000 will be left to private enterprise. Deputies will note that the ratio is as two to three and it means that if our entire energies and resources are mobilised with State aid towards the solution of the problem in regard to 60,000 houses, when that is accomplished there will be the 40,000 problem with compound interest and, as a result, there will be an unbalanced state of affairs. I add that to the reasons I have already given why the private builder should occupy a prominent position in the solution of the housing problem.

If you make it worth while for the private individual to co-operate in that work you will be bringing into that sphere a body who are specialists in their own line. If the private builder is given an opportunity, subject to proper control, which is an element which should be considered, he will make a valuable contribution to the solution of the problem. I do not want to talk too much about the private builder. I am not holding a brief for him here. I introduce him into the discussion only because I believe he can be a valuable asset. At the present moment he suffers a very serious disability. First, he would be building at present the type of house for which there is very little priority in the matter of building licences. Mark my words. You do not want to drive out of a valuable industry persons engaged in that industry and thereby deprive the country of the fruit of their experience. The people who are catering for the class of house which would come within the 40,000 as against the 60,000 are giving, directly and indirectly, a very valuable contribution to various types of employment.

Mr. Hickey

Are they not getting sufficient encouragement at the moment?

Sir John Esmonde

They are not. If the Deputy will allow me. Perhaps Deputy Hickey does not quite follow my argument. I am not now dealing with local authority houses. I am dealing with the 40,000 houses that are required. The private builder receives encouragement to the extent that, subject to certain requirements, he will obtain a grant but at present the first priority is for local council built houses. The next priority is the grant house and other houses are away in the distance.

Having made these remarks about the private builder, I do not wish it to be understood that I am in any way trying to oust the very necessary work which should be done on behalf of the working-classes in the provision of houses through local authorities. In that respect again there is an historical foundation for the problem. In the past ten to 20 years a considerable amount of legislation was introduced for various purposes, but all of it having its effect, directly or indirectly, on housing and houses in local country towns and in the City of Dublin. There was the Housing Miscellaneous Code under which the local authority had power to demolish houses that were deemed unfit for human habitation. That Act was used on many occasions for the purpose of demolishing a house so that the occupant should obtain a key to a newly-built council house. That is a matter of historical fact. In the course of my professional experience, I came across a case, not in my own constituency but in a town in the Midlands, where the local authority had made an order demolishing one-third of the existing dwellings in the town. That is a good many years ago and I believe the case was severely contested and there was a compromise. Bad as those dwellings were, and it is admitted that they were, there was no provision and there would have been no provision whatsoever for the occupants.

I believe in those days we were in much too much hurry. We should have concentrated more on seeing what could be done with the existing buildings to convert them into reasonable and fit dwellings. That could have been done and it would have been more economic than demolishing the houses and building new houses from the ground up.

One of the difficulties with which the Minister has to contend in his housing programme is the shortage of materials. I think we all agree that probably cement is one of the materials most in demand, with timber, in all housing schemes. I do not know whether the Irish cement factories, if working at full production, are in a position to produce the entire amount of cement that is necessary for any current housing programme, but I do say, and I am glad the Minister suggested it in his statement, that an examination of the question of the adoption of new methods of building is an important one. You have to get the job of housing our people done as quickly, as scientifically and as cheaply as possible, and I believe that the first consideration is the most necessary one— as quickly as possible. If the matter is properly investigated, there may be a great deal in what has been sometimes referred to as the prefabricated house. Possibly, that is a misnomer, because with their big problem in England after the war, when houses had been knocked down as a result of air raids and so forth, there were, practically by return of post you might say, dwelling houses provided which came to be known as prefabricated houses. I do not think that name should be applied to a house which is built with a new type of material, a house that, if you life, can to a certain extent be finished in the factory and later put together on the site, because the name, prefabricated house, has come to be synonymous with a small sort of hut which was the first type of mass-produced house produced in a very great hurry immediately after the war finished in England. I believe that, on a proper examination of the subject, it will emerge that, in all civilised countries at the present time as a result of improved methods and of improved design, a very good house can, to a certain extent, be made in the factory for assembly on the site. I am very glad to see that the Minister has thrown out a hint, and indeed made the statement, that he is examining into that possibility and into those methods in the exploration of the different matters which may help him to solve our problems.

I hold very strong views that we should endeavour, so far as we can, to give to the people who live in our towns and cities in this generation the same facilities that existed in past generations, and that are there at the present time through the land code, namely, the opportunity to purchase their houses. I believe that such a scheme would be for the benefit of this State. If you can get the tenant of a house to accept the proposition that he should become the owner of it, and if you give him facilities such as exist under the Land Acts to purchase that house, he will take a pride in keeping it in order. His purchase of it will raise his status as a citizen; it will give him a few square inches of our territory, and it will be his. By doing that you are making him not only a citizen but a joint owner of the soil of this State. I believe that if some sensible national scheme were designed for that purpose that, in itself, would make a valuable contribution towards a solution of our housing problem.

There is, of course, a further question on the subject of house purchase, and that is the class of house that we build here. That problem is going to face us sooner or later with regard to the houses that were built under the Soldiers' and Sailors' Land Trust Scheme for Irishmen who served in the 1914-18 war. These houses were provided out of British funds. They stand on Irish territory at the moment and are part of the national wealth. So far as I understand the position, when an ex-soldier or ex-sailor dies or leaves one of those houses, it reverts to the ownership of the legal trusts which provided it in the first instance. I am sure the Minister will keep that in mind and will see that those houses while they remain on our soil will remain our property as well.

I hope I shall not be considered as a faddist by suggesting something else, and it is that housing and health are intimately linked together, and I might add a third "h" and spell out "happiness". We in this country, whether we come from the town or the country, have been brought up to live in a certain way. I would like to see provided with each worker's house a small plot of land. If it is not possible to provide that around the house, then I should like to see it made available at some spot adjacent to the house, some little garden which the owner of the house and his family could call their own and take a pride in cultivating it. They can obtain expert assistance so far as the cultivation is concerned. I think that we can always profit from what we see people in other countries do. In Central Europe, before the recent war, anyone travelling in a train immediately became aware of the existence of a Central European town before they ever saw the smoke-stacks or the buses or trams on the roads running alongside the railway, by parks after parks of well-kept and neat allotments which belonged to the dwellers in the city through which the train was proceeding. These did not look like allotments or plots which had only existed for one or two seasons. They looked like permanent features of the landscape and they all showed that the owners of those plots took a pride in their tillage and in their appearance.

I hope I am not going to tread upon anybody's toes by my next remark. We have here what is known as the Hospitals Sweep which provides a considerable amount of money according to the success or non-success of the enterprise after each race. In this country we are not shy about lotteries or betting. Why not, therefore, devote the proceeds of the Sweep to the breeding ground of the disease and not to the cure of it when the disease has become rampant in this country. I mentioned this several times many years ago. I understand that we have some false pride in saying that we would not like to sell our tickets in the Hospitals Sweep and then let the world know that we cannot afford to pay for our own houses. I cannot see any difference in selling a Hospitals Sweep ticket for the provision of a hospital and in selling one for the provision of a decent house for a member of the working classes in this country.

I am very glad to see in the Minister's statement that he has it in mind to explore the present ramifications and working of the managerial system. When I sat on the other side of the House when that Bill was going through I fought against it at every stage and voted against it on principle, because I believe that our local authorities and our democratic institutions could work better on a modification of that system.

There is one other point I should like to make in regard to encouraging the building of houses. In my constituency in County Wexford I have seen a number of houses built by the people who were themselves going to live in them. They might not exactly be tradesmen themselves but they managed to do it. They managed to get the sand, the cement and the timber and they managed to erect very fine substantial two-storey dwellings. I have seen these houses and they are standing after some years. I hope that that class of person will receive every encouragement, because every house built is a step towards the solution of the problem.

Deputy Childers spoke of driving on the roads and of improving the roads for the purpose of avoiding accidents. I do not believe that the accidents on the roads, and particularly the serious accidents, during the past year or so have been due to the condition of the roads. Private motoring has only come back into being again during the last two or three years. It is my respectful submission to this House that these serious accidents were due to the grossly bad and irresponsible driving of the people at the wheels of the motor cars.

Major de Valera

But are they not usually contributed to by some feature of the road? Do they not happen at a place where there is something wrong with it?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

They often occur in places where the road is too good.

Sir John Esmonde

At the present time I am living in a house whose windows give me an opportunity of looking into the drivers' seats of the motor cars that pass on the Bray road. The road is possibly at its widest point in that particular place and is without even a bend. I can honestly say, in regard to some of this road-hog driving, that I frequently see people just escaping the most serious accidents. There may be dangerous turns but, because a turn is dangerous, does that give the driver of a motor car the right to take a chance? I think that if my friend and colleague, Deputy Major de Valera, will look into the matter he will find that if the factor of speed and irresponsibility were not there it would not matter about the dangerous corner. While it is necessary to eliminate and straighten out dangerous corners it is vital to bring home to the minds of the drivers of the £2,800, the £1,800 or the £1,500 cars a sense of civic responsibility so that they will not think they are entitled to have a grievance, just because their cars have loud horns and are capable of high speed, when they cannot pass out the careful motorist in front who is doing his 25 m.p.h. on a main artery into the city. I have given this matter careful thought and I have made careful observations from where I live at the moment. I prophesy to this House that unless something is done about the speed limit on the main roads into our city we shall have many more ghastly accidents within the next few months.

In the excitement and enthusiasm of looking after the employees of local authorities one other deserving class is very often overlooked. I should like, as a last word, to plead for the skilled professional man in the employment of a local authority.

Mr. Sheehan

We are all aware of the grave seriousness of the terrible scarcity of houses all over the country —particularly in the cities—and particularly in the City of Cork which I represent and of which I happen to be Lord Mayor for the past three years. During these three years I have seen very sad cases and heard many sad stories about people looking for houses. I am glad to see our present Minister for Local Government taking a serious view of the housing problem. He has gone around the country from city to city and from county to county and has seen a lot for himself, and I feel that he will make progress in this respect very soon. Supplies are getting better. During the emergency, there was great difficulty about supplies and yet when an emergency arises we seem to be able to get material to build air-raid shelters and road blockades. The most serious problem of all to-day is the building of houses for our people. It is hard to expect to have a healthy race when you hear of the conditions under which people live. We talk a lot about hospitals, but I say here and now that houses should come first. If you build houses for the people, you will not need hospitals. That is the way to have a decent, healthy race. I would appeal to the Minister to give a general idea to the local authorities of the type of houses he requires. Then the local authorities should have full power to go ahead and build, without any restrictions. I am sure that we in Cork will do our utmost to make progress.

An Ceann Comhairle

All that can be told in its proper season.

Mr. McGrath

I am merely pointing out what happened this evening. Deputy Con Lehane said that Deputies. needed to be wakened up to the facts of the housing situation. As our Lord Mayor said a while ago, the Cork Deputies certainly do not need to be wakened up. Their trouble is that they cannot get enough time in which to sleep because there are people coming to them at all hours of the day and night looking for houses. In Cork we are very much alive to the situation. We are prepared to help the Minister, or anybody else, in his efforts to go ahead with the housing campaign.

A Cork Corporation decided as an experiment to give 250 houses to direct labour. I suggested at the time that the best way of carrying out the experiment would be to give 150 of the houses to direct labour and 100 to contract. There was not agreement with me on the point and I did not press the matter because I myself do not wish to do anything that might militate in any way against housing. I suppose I am approached more often than anybody else in this House by people looking for houses. At the time this experiment was suggested the Lord Mayor said that Cork Corporation were quite prepared to give direct labour a trial provided the Minister would cut out the red tape and leave the matter in the hands of our engineers and in the hands of the housing department of our corporation. I hope the Minister will see that that is done.

Deputy Lehane also spoke about houses erected by private builders. At the present time any builder can build any houses he likes on a speculative basis. I think the time is now opportune to give these builders a chance of tendering for local authority houses particularly if steps are taken to prevent them building the type of house which they are building at the moment. In that eventuality they will be put out of business. That may be the desire of some people but I think it is not a good practice to put anybody out of business. If there is profiteering the Minister can step in.

I had to look into two cases in connection with housing to-day. A young man approached me last week and told me that he had seen a letter in the Sunday Independent to the effect that permits for housing were being held up for an unconscionable period. This young man is a carpenter and he is anxious to build a house for himself. It is a bungalow-type house and he wants to take advantage of the long daylight in order to complete it. His permit was not forthcoming and I told him I would approach the Department in the matter. I called to the Department of Industry and Commerce and I was told that the C.B. 4 had been returned because it was out of date and that he should get another one. He got the other application form, filled it up and returned it. I called to the Department to-day and the answer I got, when I made inquiries about it, was that it would not be in the list of permits issued in July. That was all the information they could give me. I admit that this application is only in for a week or two. I would ask the Minister to approach the Minister for Industry and Commerce so that some effort will be made to hurry up these permits for private individuals who are anxious to go ahead with particular houses.

I have had a number of complaints in regard to another matter. In Cork I have had several complaints and I am sure that Dublin suffers in the same way. Houses that are already built by private builders but which were not completed before November last cannot be sold now because the grant is not available for such houses. The reason the grant cannot be got is because the person requiring the house did not procure a contractor's agreement before the house was started and he is not now eligible for the grant. I think there are many cases like that of which the Minister may not be aware. In one particular case in which I am interested the house fulfils all the qualifications with regard to size and cubic capacity. If the applicant for that house could avail of the grant he would be able to buy it. The builder had already got the £45 grant. I do not know whether it would be possible to advance the balance to the man who is anxious to buy the house now. I can assure the Minister that there are several people in a similar position at the moment. There are houses built which are unoccupied and which would be occupied to-morrow by people who are anxious to get the benefit of the grant. If the Minister could investigate the value of those houses in order to find out if there is profiteering or overcharging he might be in a position to do something. Whatever he does in an effort to get those houses occupied he will be doing a good day's work to relieve the housing situation.

With regard to managers and the managerial system, for years I was opposed to the managerial system. Since the former Minister for Local Government sent out a circular asking for co-operation between the managers and the local authorities, the Cork city manager has on every occasion consulted the local authorities in practically everything, with the exception of interference in staff matters or anything like that. Any housing scheme drawn up was put before the corporation and he abided by the decision of the corporation. That helped to wipe out some of our previous grievances with the system. There are certain people who stand for election to local authorities who have no interest in local affairs. They attend only two meetings in the year. Those of them who are property owners attend the rates meeting in an effort to get the rates reduced, and they attend the election for a lord mayor. Apart from those two meetings, one does not see them any more during the year. Those are the people who are the cause of want of interest more than anything else. If they only watched the business of the local authorities during the year they might be able to do a lot more to help to keep down the rates.

As regards Deputy Esmonde's remarks about the roads, I think he misunderstood Deputy Childers. Deputy Childers made it quite clear that it was on the straight, level stretches that the accidents occur. He pleaded for a speed limit on the outskirts of Dublin. I wish the Minister every luck in his housing programme, and I hope he will be able to speed up the construction of houses.

Mr. Cogan

Stripped of all its trappings and trimmings, the main purpose of the Minister's Department is to provide for the construction and production of houses and for the construction and production of decent roads. These are the pressing things, and I think priority should be given to the provision of decent houses for our people. It is estimated there are 100,000 houses urgently required. If those houses cost on an average £1,000 each, that would represent a capital investment of £100,000,000. That is an enormous sum and, because of its enormity and the burden which it must place on the community, and also because of the urgency of the problem, it is absolutely essential that there must be the clearest thinking and the most active consideration of this matter with the object of ensuring that the work will be speedily done and that houses will be produced efficiently and at the lowest possible price.

I have experience of the provision of rural houses in two counties that adjoin each other. I find that in one county it has been possible within the past two years to provide a good type of rural house for a little more than £500. In the adjoining county tenders are at the rate of £1,000 for each house. There you have an example of houses costing 100 per cent. more in the adjoining county and it is because of that disparity that it is essential to have clear and active investigation.

It is the duty of the Minister to continue doing what he has done during the short time he has been in office. He has been making what was described by Deputy MacEntee as a royal tour of the counties. The Minister ought to be congratulated on that. All prominent statesmen make a royal tour of the capitals of various continents. The Minister for Local Government is content to roam through various provincial centres and find out how the local authorities and their officials are operating, with the object of improving their working methods. It is only by comparing what is done in one county with what has been done or left undone in another that we can step up the standard of efficiency in all counties.

If it is possible to build a good house in one county for £500 it should be possible to build a similar type of house in practically every other county in Ireland. The difference in the available materials cannot be so great in one county as compared with another.

A lot has been said about the desirability of adopting mass production methods in relation to houses. When we think in terms of 60,000 houses being required by the local authorities, we ought to think in terms of mass production. I do not believe that the housing problem can be solved by antiquated methods or by a variety of standards in various districts. We must have standardisation in regard to the type of house required and, as far as possible, we must have mass production in the provision of such portions of houses as can be mass produced.

If we are to break the back of this problem quickly we must adopt a standard type of house. Some people may object to that, saying that it will make for a monopoly or it may spoil the landscape to see large numbers of houses of a similar type and size. We must remember that 100 years ago practically every country house—and most of the houses were built in the rural areas—was identical in type and size. They were long, low thatched houses. That was the type of house built 100 or 150 years ago.

In recent years there has been a large measure of uniformity in the type of house provided by local authorities and I do not think there is anything very objectionable in that. It is possible for the owner of a house to change its appearance by improving the outdoor amenities, by providing various types of shrub and other methods of decoration which will alter the appearance of the dwelling. It is also recognised that the general surroundings to a certain extent alter the outward appearance.

This matter is so important we must not be too sentimental, if you like, about it. We must aim at getting houses built as quickly as possible. If you adopt standardisation there is no doubt you can reduce costs enormously. If you build 20,000 or 30,000 houses of the same size and type, there is no doubt a great reduction can be achieved in expenditure. Why was it possible for Henry Ford to produce cars so cheaply? Simply because there were tens of thousands of cars of the same size and type produced. In the recent war it was found possible to build thousands of tanks and aero-brahe planes on a large scale, simply because they were all of the same type and it was possible to get them constructed much more quickly than if there had been a wide variety.

We must remember that these war machines were built in the main by people who had very little previous experience. Into the war factories and war industries of Britain and America were brought men, women and girls who had no previous factory experience, but because there was standardisation and organisation it was possible to use that type of labour efficiently and effectively. In the same way we have, as the Minister pointed out, a shortage of skilled labour for housing generally. I believe that with standardisation it will be possible to get through an enormous amount of the work of building with labour of a type that possesses very little of what is known as building skill. I do not know whether prefabricated houses of the type spoken of in other countries could be utilised here or whether they could be provided at a sufficiently economic rate. It is possible that we might not be able to secure the materials here as cheaply as in other countries, but even if you had to consider the type of house which we have at present, the concrete house roofed with asbestos, it is possible, even with that type of house, to provide for a good deal of mass production.

On this point I should like to say that I believe that the cheapest and best house that can be purchased is a house built with mass concrete. You can have the entire casing for that concrete mass-produced and turned out on a sufficiently large scale to ensure that, so far as the walls of houses are concerned, they can be built by labour that would probably be regarded as unskilled. It would be possible to manufacture the casing so that even a very inexpert builder could put it together and then it would be only a matter of filling it up with mass concrete. Here we have need for mechanisation, and mechanisation on a fairly large scale. The raising and screening of the sand, the mixing of the concrete and even the delivery of the concrete into the shapes or casing could all be done by mechanical power. The old-fashioned shovel and trowel, all these hand instruments, could to a large extent be eliminated, so far as building the walls of the houses is concerned. Then in regard to doors, windows and fittings of every type all the necessary materials could be factory-prepared so that they could be put together quickly. In my opinion, this is the only way to tackle the problem. I have seen quite a good deal of building with concrete blocks but I do not think that is as speedy a method as the method which I have mentioned. I have spoken to a number of county engineers and they have more or less come to the conclusion that, with proper casing, the mass concrete provides the best type of house.

The next question that arises in regard to housing—and it does make a very important difference in the cost— is the cost of the building sites. I was denounced here in this House as a stern conservative because I stood for the rights of the farmer in connection with land that might be acquired from him. Nevertheless, I shall not hesitate to say that it is an injustice to the community if an excessive price is charged for building sites, particularly in the vicinity of a large town or city. The value of the land upon which these houses are to be built is inflated, not by reason of any work done by the owner of the land, but by reason of the industry, the enterprise and the needs of the community. While property has its rights, the community also have their rights and I believe the only standard of value for land is its agricultural value. I do not think that the community should be held to ransom because land in the vicinity of a large town or city is made valuable by reason of the pressing urgent needs of the community at large. I think that there is a problem that has got to be faced. If building sites are to be acquired, they should be acquired at a price that is fair, not only to the owner but equally fair to the community at large who require these sites so urgently.

The next matter of importance in regard to housing is the problem of finance. Ten years ago a commission inquired into the whole question of finance, credit and the problems associated therewith. In one of their reports, it was recommended that money should be made available for housing and for national development work free of interest. That report still stands. It has never been acted upon although it was signed by a member of the then Government Party. I should like the new Government to consider that report carefully. There is nothing to prevent the Government going to the Central Bank and asking them to provide money.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. Cogan

I was recommending to the Minister that he should give some attention to the minority report produced by a member of the Fianna Fáil Party on the Banking Commission. I do not know why the Fianna Fáil Party, during their ten years of office subsequently, paid no attention to the recommendations in that report. I believe the new Minister can, with profit to the community, adopt that report. We will be saved an enormous burden of interest rates which press, and will continue to press, so heavily, not only on the incoming tenants of these houses but on the ratepaying community generally. During the past year the Minister has pointed out that the burden of rates increased by £1,000,000 and I think it is time measures were adopted to check and correct that steadily mounting increase. The burden falls not only upon the farmers and business people but upon the working people occupying these new houses, and I would say that a very substantial portion of that cost is comprised of interest rates on money raised for housing and other purposes by local authorities.

I have said that the two big tasks the Minister has to deal with are the provision of roads and the provision of housing. I have dealt with the provision of housing and I should like to say a few words now with regard to roads. Just as in the production of houses, so also in the reconstruction of roads we have a very wide disparity between the costs in the various counties, and I think it is time that urgent steps were taken to check up on costs as between one county and another. The Minister should find out what it is costing the engineers in each county to reconstruct a road surface. There are, of course, some variations in the costs of materials in one county as against another. In some counties, as Deputy Childers has pointed out, plenty of good stone suitable for road surfacing is available, while in other counties it is not, but to-day, with a cheaper system of transport and with so many lorries available, it should be possible to secure the best type of stone within a reasonable distance of the roads in any county and there should be no excuse for roads costing twice as much in one engineer's district as in another.

There must be a stepping-up of efficiency all round and I think the time has come for the Minister to call for the taking of the most effective measures by his engineers to ensure that the greatest output of work is obtained for the number of people employed. It is not a question of men in one county being better than those in other counties; it is a question of the engineers or supervisory staff being less efficient in some counties than in others. To a great extent, everything depends on the county engineer, who is the key man and upon whose dynamic force, personality and ability will depend whether the roads are efficiently and cheaply constructed or not. Just as in housing, there is urgent need for mechanisation on roads. The days of the pick and shovel are to a great extent passing and one high-powered machine can do the work of a considerable number of men. It is not a question of displacing men. If it were, there might be some objection to the utilising of the most up-to-date machinery, but there is so much work to be done that the purpose of the machine is not to displace men but to ensure that really effective work is secured from the number of men employed.

In this connection, when so much depends upon the efficiency of the engineering staff in each county, I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that there are some counties which have been left for two, three and four years without any county engineer. I do not know why that should be. It is due to the dilatory tactics of the Appointments Commission who spend years deciding whom they should appoint as county engineer. The position of county engineer should be filled when it becomes vacant. It could and should be easily filled within a few months. Yet, in County Carlow, there is a vacancy for nearly three years and the result is that it is impossible to have work properly organised. The acting engineers are waiting from day to day expecting that the position will be filled. It is not fair to any county to leave the enormous work of the engineering section without a permanent officer in charge.

Another point which strikes me in this connection is that, if we are to get the best type of service from our engineers—and it is upon them that we must depend for efficiency not only in housing but in road construction—it is essential that the young engineers should have not only the necessary academic qualifications but also practical experience of the type of work they have to undertake and of the handling of men and working with them. A young man coming out of college may be a first-class engineer, but he may know very little about the organisation and practical carrying out of work in connection with roads or housing. I do not think we should rely entirely in any county, in regard to both road construction and housing, on either the contract system or the direct labour system. Both systems should be operated and it would be possible by so doing to bring about a little of that competition which is essential in every human activity. Even in this Dáil, we are told that a little opposition or competition is very useful, and I do not agree with those who denounce the direct labour system for housing. I believe that with a proper engineering staff houses can be cheaply and very efficiently provided by direct labour. In the same way, I do not accept the view that we should rely entirely on direct labour for road construction. It should be possible for every county to try out the contract system on portions of roads and to see how a good contractor's work would compare with the work carried out directly by the county engineer. These two systems can work well together and there is so much work to be done that one will not eliminate completely the other.

An important matter in connection with roads is the question of safety, safety not only for the mechanically propelled vehicle, but also safety for the horse and for live stock. I am satisfied that the only road surface that will stand up to heavy traffic in this country and give satisfaction is a tarred surface, but in laying down a tarred surface it should be, and it is, possible to lay a surface sufficiently rough to ensure that it is safe for live stock and for horses. I do not believe in a perfectly smooth surface for any road as it is not even good for the motorist. From the motorist's point of view too, it is necessary that there should be a roughish finish on the road so that the vehicle would be able to hold its grip and that the brakes would be effective in case of emergency. I think a good road surface can be laid down that will stand up to heavy traffic, lorries, cars and buses and that will at the same time be safe for horses. That is one of the first problems that have got to be faced. I know that there is a commission sitting on this question and I would be interested to hear their views, but I am simply giving mine in anticipation of whatever they decide.

On the question of safety I am in complete agreement with Deputies who say that no straightening out of roads or removing of dangerous curves or bends will ensure safety. Safety in the case of the mechanically propelled vehicle will depend on the vehicle itself being in proper order and on the driver being in proper order. I know it is an unpopular thing to suggest, but human life is important, and I believe that sooner or later we shall have to adopt a speed limit, and I do not believe that that speed limit should be confined only to the immediate vicinity of cities. There is as much danger on the main roads of this country and in provincial towns. It may be possible, in arranging for that speed limit, to provide for certain exemptions or a variation of the limit. For example, a person with a very large-powered car who has proved to be a careful driver in the past and who has no offences marked against him might be allowed a higher speed than drivers of smaller cars and other types of drivers.

It may be outside the scope of the Minister and his Department, but there is another aspect of safety which is definitely inside the Minister's bailiwick, that is to provide some protection for harbours or open piers. During the last four or five years there have been a series of dreadful motor accidents in which cars went over piers in various places and into the water. There does not seem to be any reason why some protection could not be provided and I believe that that protection could be provided at a reasonable price and without interfering with the use of that pier or harbour. There have been too many of that type of accident, and in fairness to the general motoring public some protection should be provided because I do not believe that these accidents were due to carelessness on the part of the driver. They may have been due, in some cases, to the driver driving in unfamiliar surroundings and without any warning finding himself in the water. This problem should be dealt with immediately and the Minister should not leave it to one or two local authorities but should warn all local authorities to provide the necessary protection. I believe that if instruction is given by the Minister, that protection will be given throughout the various counties and various cities.

The Minister's predecessor, speaking last week, was very severe upon the Government for having dropped the committee investigating into rural water supply. I have made it a definite practice not to interrupt speakers, but I felt myself very severely tempted when listening to Deputy MacEntee to interrupt him and ask him how much water did this Rural Water Supply Commission produce during the period it was in existence. I do not believe that you are going to provide water in rural areas by having a commission or a committee sitting here in Dublin. That problem must be tackled and I think for a while it will have to be tackled on the basis of trial and error.

I think that steps should be taken by doing a little practical work and making up areas that are badly served with regard to water supplies and seeing how it works out with regard to cost. A commission sitting in armchairs can hear a lot of evidence, do a lot of talking and make a lot of recommendations, but I think that if some engineer or manager would undertake the work of making up an area where there is no water supply and seeing how the scheme operates it would be much more useful. I have in mind in my own constituency a townland called Balltiboys where there are 20 small farmers and practically no water on any of those farms. It is true that that townland may be unique in so far as it was affected by the hydro-electric scheme with the result that some of the existing springs were submerged. But the position at the moment is that I believe it would be practicable to bring a piped water supply to these houses at a reasonable rate and the occupiers would be quite willing to pay a reasonable rate for that service. That problem and problems like it will not be solved by a committee or commission. It requires practical work. The difficulties which have to be overcome can only be properly estimated when the work is undertaken in a number of areas.

There is one small item in the Estimate with which I am in wholehearted agreement inasmuch as it fits in with what I have said in regard to standard specifications for houses. There is to be a competition for designs for houses. I hope that will be brought to the notice of all engineers and architects, and that there will be the keenest possible competition. As I have said, we must adopt a standard type of house and, if we are to get such a house built efficiently, cheaply and on a large scale, it is desirable that it should be the best possible type of house not only from the point of view of the local authority but also from the point of view of the person who has to live in it.

I am one of those who opposed the County Management Act at all stages when it was going through this House. I am glad that the Minister proposes to reform the existing system and I hope that the reforms will be carried out on progressive lines. I believe it is desirable to hand back to the local representatives of the people a reasonable measure of control in their local affairs. In that connection, I have an idea which I should like to submit to the Minister for consideration. It is extremely difficult for a county council consisting of 20, 25 or 30 members, scattered throughout the length and breadth of a county and meeting perhaps not oftener than once a month, to get down to all the details of administration. I have often wondered whether it would be possible for each county council to appoint a small committee of from seven to nine members, each member of that committee being given a department, just as in this House we appoint an executive committee which we call the Government and put each Department in charge of one member of it. What I suggest is that each county council should elect a small committee, each member of that committee taking charge of one section of the work of the county council. For example, you would have one member in charge of roads, another in charge of housing, another in charge of public health, another in charge of home assistance, and another in charge of the water supply system generally. When I say in charge, I do not mean that he would be in the position of an executive officer. What I imply is that he should have the special duty of coming into the county council office and investigating one particular section of the work. It is impossible for any member of a county council to get a clear grasp of all the branches of the council's work. It is impossible for an ordinary business man, an agricultural worker or a farmer to get a clear grasp of all the problems in regard to housing, health institutions, home assistance and all the other matters which have to be attended to. If, however, the function of making a special study of one section was given to one member and he was required to make a monthly or a quarterly report to the council of the work in that department, I think a good deal of improvement would be achieved. The county council would be brought into closer touch with the actual administration, which is the all-important thing, because we must remember that it is impossible for all members of a council to get a really clear grasp of all the work to be done.

We have found from experience that even the managers, who devote full time to the work of the council, are finding it very difficult to keep track of all the various sections of administration under their control. It is becoming an almost impossible task. The suggestion which I have made may not be practicable, but I think it is worth considering. I am one of those who would suggest that, whatever you do in regard to the county management system, you should not give back to the local authorities the power to make appointments. As a matter of fact, I should like to ask the Minister to take charge of appointments to the remaining offices in the hands of the local authorities—the appointment of rate collectors. I think members of local authorities would be very glad to be relieved of the task of making appointments to local services.

Major de Valera

As one might have anticipated, this debate has centred largely around the question of housing. If there is one matter on which there is unanimity in this House, it is the desirability of providing more houses to meet the existing deficiency. Reiterating that, however, is not going to get us anywhere. There is a problem there which is largely a legacy of the war. It will not be solved until we take active steps to solve it. We Deputies cannot very well help or take part intelligently in a discussion before (a) we know precisely what the difficulty is; and (b) until we know precisely what action the Government propose to take in the matter. I understand that supplies, for instance, continue still to be a difficulty in regard to housing as they have been in the past.

We would be very interested to know what exactly is the position in regard to building supplies now and how far the contemplated housing drive is held up because of such deficiencies. Then the Minister would facilitate the House very much if he could tell us what active steps are to be taken, or what steps can be taken would be a better way to put it—because the Minister can only achieve the possible; he can not achieve the impossible—to get over that particular difficulty. The scene is changing in regard to the supply position generally and, therefore, any estimate formed some months ago is likely to be out of date now. At this stage I would ask the Minister if he could help us by giving us that information.

I agree with Deputy Cogan to a certain extent when he says that commissions and inquiries get us nowhere. Of course, these things are a matter of balance. Very often a Minister, before tackling a problem, requires to have a survey to obtain information. One can readily understand that. For that purpose such bodies are useful and frequently helpful. On the other hand, too much time can be wasted in waiting for reports. Such bodies sometimes achieve very little or lead to little more than a survey of the problem and, in the last analysis, as Deputy Cogan says, they do not do the job; the job has to be done by executive action elsewhere. However, it is merely a question for proper balance. We know that certain steps in the survey line have been taken but we would be interested to know what positive executive steps can be taken to implement the housing drive that apparently this Government contemplates, as did the last.

Before the last Government went out of office, certain plans and certain schemes were practically ready for implementation. The Minister might tell us how far he is adopting these or how far he will modify them or change them and substitute action of his own. All these things would be matters of considerable interest to us here and, I think, would help us to an intelligent and helpful discussion of this matter more than this continual reiteration of the assertion that more houses are required.

For a large number of years there has been considerable housing activity in the country. It was held up by the war. It is continuing now. We want to see it continued; I do not think there is any need to press the Minister to try to see that it is continued. The trouble is, what can we do to help him in the matter of the difficulties with which he is confronted? I have menttioned one, the question of supplies of material. There is another, I understand, the difficulty, in certain quarters at any rate, of providing the necessary skilled personnel and, I understand, there are questions of finance.

Deputy Cogan tempted me somewhat when he referred to a certain minority report of the Banking Commission. However, I think this is not the proper place to follow that up. There is obviously room for the proper coordination of the requirements of, say, the Minister for Local Government, who is taking this Estimate through the House, and the Minister for Finance. We would be interested to know in what way the financial structure of the State can be used to aid the Minister in his housing drive; how far Government action in these two spheres, which are related at this point at any rate, is to be and can be coordinated.

There is another aspect of that, the repercussion of the Department of Finance attitude on the housing situation, to which I shall refer in a moment in another connection but I will just leave what I have said with that net point, that, perhaps, if we could get down to earth by biting on definite facts and figures, instead of talking at large about this subject, we might get further. I would, therefore, ask the Minister to do what he can to help us by giving us the material upon which to bite.

Moving from the question of housing in general, there is one concrete aspect of housing affecting the City of Dublin, to which I should like to refer. Since the early 1930's there has been considerable expansion of the city. In fact, wholly new suburbs have grown up in certain quarters and there has been a considerable amount of rebuilding within the city. I might mention en passant that it was found from the social point of view better to reconstruct certain premises in the centre of the city and so to try to accommodate the families who were used to living in quarters there than to try to provide houses for them on the outskirts, even though that course might have involved the responsible body in greater expenditure of money. In the building of these new schemes in Dublin and in the attempt to re-house the people living in what were called the slum areas, a problem immediately developed which every city Deputy knows about. Where you transferred a family from the centre of the city, say, the Gardiner Street area, and brought them out to, say, Cabra, it looked all right on paper in the first instance. It seemed to be a good thing to take them out and put them in a fresh new house in a fresh area, even a more healthy area. That seemed to be the best thing to do at first sight, but in actual fact, it did not work out so well because you were rooting those people up from their natural associations and it had an adverse effect. That argument has a good deal in it, although it is difficult to substantiate it in so many words. Not only was that so but, when they went out to a place like Cabra, they found themselves confronted with a higher cost of living.

That situation looks like getting worse, if anything, unless something is done to check it. Say a family which have had a room in that area in the centre of the city of which I spoke were paying a rent under 10/- a week or up to 10/- a week. By virtue of the rent Acts and particularly where they were controlled under the old rent Acts, the standard rent was controlled at a value related to 1914 and in cases where the tenant chose to assert his rights— as many of them are doing—they were able to ensure that the rents would not cross the 10/- a week mark normally, and even that was high for many of them. When they go out to these other houses, especially when the cost of building is going up, there is the danger that they will have to pay more.

Let me be clear. I do not want to push the case too far. Admittedly, families who have been transferred to corporation houses have a house as against a room. They have better value. I am conceding that. But, from their point of view, there is a greater outgoing in rent and they have less money for other purposes.

That is disadvantage number one. Disadvantage number two is the question of the cost in regard to transport, and, possibly, in regard to eating in town. People, while living in one room in the centre of the city, were within reach of their work by walking or by taking a penny bus fare, but now they find themselves, when so transferred, faced with increased transport charges amounting to a considerable sum. That disadvantage accrues to them and, lastly, they are frequently constrained because of the distance from their homes to have a meal in some eating-house in town where prior to their transfer they would have been able to get a meal in their own homes. These considerations bring very acutely before anybody who looks at the Dublin problem the question of how far can we expedite the accommodation of these people within the city itself, and they are usually the people in the city who are most in need of re-accommodation.

The Minister has gone around the country. I would like him to see much of what remains to be done in Dublin. As the Minister knows, practically the whole of Gardiner Street was rebuilt —corporation flats and other buildings. Still there are parts of this city, and I think the Minister, if he were not in these rooms as I and other Deputies have been, would hardly believe the conditions under which families have to live. These, then, are urgent problems in Dublin. What I am saying in the net is that that urgent problem cannot be solved automatically by a provision for building houses on the outskirts of the city. I am not saying that you have built beyond the limit on the outskirts, but when you do go beyond the limit you are going to increase the difficulties that I have mentioned for those people.

You have got, therefore, to see what you can do to speed up the rebuilding of these habitations in the city itself. Before the change of Government, some of us were pressing very hard for this in regard to the city itself. There had been, for instance, not only cases of bad living conditions but cases of positive danger. I have had dealings with people who have had houses which collapsed around them. I would like the Minister to pay particular attention to the problem of hurrying up as practically a priority job the rebuilding of these houses in the centre of the city. You have, for instance, houses in Henrietta Street where the living accommodation is extremely bad. At the same time, I want to be fair to the Minister. He has only been in office a few months and I know that he cannot work miracles, but I am recommending this problem to him for his consideration, and asking if he would tell us what steps are proposed to be taken in these connections.

While I was thinking of that problem I looked back through some reports and came across an interesting matter which is referred to in the "Report of Inquiry into the Housing of the Working Classes of the City of Dublin, 1939-43" in connection with transport. The cost of bus fares seemed to be at that date even higher than I should have expected, but what is said in this report bears out my argument in regard to transfers. There is a suggestion made in it which I would like to bring to the Minister's attention and ask if he would consider it. This report points out, as things existed then, that rail transport was cheaper than bus or tram. There are not very many trams left now. The report points out that greater use could be made of the suburban railway services and that housing development along existing suburban lines should be considered. They pointed out, however, that the areas surrounding the southern lines had been built upon and that there was no room for housing development here. Kingsbridge is not central enough. It runs out along a line that does not offer prospects of development. The Great Northern line runs along up to Raheny, which is an area also fairly well built on. The report points out one interesting thing, however, that would strike one, and it is that there are possibilities along the old Midland Great Western line. The Broadstone Station was closed up by the last Government in spite of reasons that were shown to the contrary. There were very many people who urged that it should not have been closed, but it was and it was turned into a bus terminus. There are still railway facilities into it. There is the loopline that runs from the Liffey Junction at Cabra and that gives connections to Amiens Street and Westland Row. The report has this reference to it:

"As to the lines suitable for an extension of this nature we suggest one as being well worthy of examination, the old Midland Great Western Railway line to Ashtown, capable of giving a service from Finglas and Cabra districts to Broadstone, Drum-condra, Amiens Street, North Wall, Tara Street, and Westland Row. Such a service has great possibilities in connection with the better housing of dock workers. New stations might require to be opened, and old ones altered and improved, but the line is there waiting to be used."

In a later paragraph the report says:—

"However, we recommend that the possibilities in connection with the old Midland Great Western Railway line should first be investigated. A very considerable number of houses have been erected in the Cabra district by the corporation, and a population is already there. In addition, further building in that district is planned."

I am talking to the Minister for Local Government and I think it is a point which he might consider. I should like to say, in case it might be thought that I am trying to take advantage of a Minister who has not been very long in office, that I want to raise a point now I raised last year in regard to the Dublin rates. I must say that viewing the thing soberly one commences to be alarmed at the incidence of the rates in Dublin. They had reached the level of £ for £ some years ago. In other words, if our valuations had been at a proper level, if our valuations had been what they should have been or purported to be, you had got to the limit when you would be insolvent as a public body in charging £ for £ beyond that point. Unfortunately our valuations are not based on what they should be so I cannot say that in actual fact. What I can say is that the rates have gone from £ in the £ a few years ago when they were considered to be high up to 25s. 9d. last year which, to say the least, was alarming. Now we are faced in the City of Dublin with a rate, I think, of 27s. 6d. in the £. It has got to the stage of being a serious problem.

As I pointed out last year on this Vote it is a serious problem now for practically everybody, for all the poorer people living in the city and for all the salaried and professional people. It is not quite so big a problem for, say, the owners of big business flats and so forth where their valuations are probably not properly adjusted. I am not going to follow up that point at the moment; there might be a question for revaluation there. In the case of everybody else it is a serious problem because now, under the Rent Acts in force, every increase in rates can be passed on to the tenant. That means, of course, that the tenants are paying. I want to direct the Minister's attention, as I directed his predecessor's attention, to the position of all the poorer classes in the city in addition to the position of the so-called white-collared worker, the man who is employed by the State as a civil servant or in a business firm and who is on a salary, say, of £500 a year or under, which is not a very princely wage these days. Each and every one of these people at the moment, with a few favoured exceptions, are in this position. They are either paying rent to some landlord for the houses which they occupy or else they are the owners, or the nominal owners, of their houses. By that I mean that they are the owners of the house in law but they have to pay interest to the people who lent them money to buy. In other words, they have been buying through a building society or a bank. In either case the increase in rates falls directly on them and it hits them hard. It is passed on to the tenant by virtue of the Rent Act. The owner has to pay it if he is occupying his house. It is a serious burden. It is perhaps a more serious burden on the people who are trying to buy their houses at the present moment. Up to the moment a number of people bought houses of a £20 valuation or thereabouts. If they owned their house they had to meet as yearly outgoing the income-tax on it and the rates but, above other things, they had to pay the interest on the loan they secured from a building society or a bank. If you tot up the sum that such people would be paying on a house of that nature you will find that they would, in effect, be paying a rent equivalent to or slightly more than that paid by a person who is merely renting a house. In other words, all the people I have referred to are, from the point of view of money outgoing per annum, in the same position.

The only factual distinction to be made between them at the moment is the fact that one has no remaining interest after his tenancy while the other has, prospectively at least, the house as an ultimate asset. But from year to year the pay-out is the same in both cases. Now what does one do? The Dublin rates go up. In the case of a house of, say, £20 to £40 valuation— which is not a big house in this city at the present moment—if the rates in a few years rise from 20/- to 25/9 and then jump to 27/6, it is easy to work out the increased cost on these people. Therefore, I urge on the Minister; as I urged on his predecessor, the necessity for some action to prevent the Dublin rates from increasing any further. If it should so happen that this cannot be avoided and if the money has to be found, the system of valuation has be examined, so as to ensure that the burden is not being carried by the small people as against the bigger interests.

Now, I have again an opportunity of asking the present Minister will he please reconsider it. His predecessor would not do it. Will the present Minister please do what Deputy Byrne apparently wants done as well?

I now want to get back once more to the even tenor in which I was determined to approach this Vote. One must appreciate the fact that the present Minister has only been in office for a couple of months. It would take him that time to find his sea-legs and it would be unfair if I adopted any unreasonable attitude. The Minister is faced with this particular problem in so far as the administration of the City of Dublin is concerned. You have increasing rates. You have his colleague making the situation worse for him. I want to know where it is all going to stop. I am sure the Minister cannot tell me that. I urge upon the Minister, however, that he should do all in his power to ensure the best service, on the one hand, and the greatest economy on the other compatible with good and prudent business administration in regard to the City of Dublin. I can assure the Minister that there are many citizens who are not at all satisfied with the condition of things at the moment.

I would appeal to the Minister to give us some facts upon which to argue. If we have facts we can be reasonable and we shall not go far astray in the course of debate. There is another matter in connection with housing which creates something of a problem. Will the Minister give us a clear expression of his policy in regard to houses which prospective purchasers wish to acquire? There are many young married people who are anxious to buy their houses. Up to some years ago there was an ever-growing desire on the part of many people to own their own houses.

Facilities were afforded by the building societies in order to help people to acquire their own houses. During the war years the price of houses shot up. There was a certain restriction placed on credit—prompted, I think, by the Government—and these people found themselves no longer in a position to borrow. The problem with which we are faced now is not a simple one. The price of houses has soared altogether out of proportion to their true value. Because of that there is much to be said for the attitude of the Government in restricting credit, whereby loans were only advanced to the actual value of the houses. But if one is not able to bring down the actual price of the houses and still restricts the loan in proportion to that value, then there will be no possibility of certain classes of people acquiring their houses under what I describe as the hire purchase system. That is really what it comes to in the end.

Two problems arise out of that. First of all, the people who acquired their houses before the restriction of credit acquired them very often on the basis of the then existing circumstances relating to their total outlay at that time; in other words, they acquired the houses on the basis of an estimated outgoing on rates, plus interest, plus ground rent and other incidentals. The rates have now shot up and these people find themselves bearing an increased burden. Can the Minister do anything in order to stabilise the position of these people so that they will not be plunged further into difficulty; in other words, can the Minister do anything to prevent the repercussion of the increased burden of rates?

The second problem is as to what can be done for those people who now wish to acquire their houses by the hire-purchase method. The value of house property is still high. The building societies will not advance more than a sum calculated by their valuer and that sum is not necessarily related to the market price. It is, in fact, very often below the market price. There is a good case to be made for trying to prevent such inflation. In trying to prevent such inflation we must at the same time do nothing which might prevent people in that category from acquiring these houses. I am speaking now chiefly of young married people who wish to settle down permanently. These problems are not easy of solution. I would like to know how far the Minister has considered them and what can be done to remedy them. Certain provisions were incorporated in the Housing Act of last year but conditions have changed since then. Conditions have changed with regard to the market price and with regard to the credit available. Grants will be made available for such houses but one must always take into consideration the sum which the proposed purchaser is likely to be able to put up and so forth. It is a fairly complex problem. I would like the Minister to consider them in greater detail. The problems are there and they must be faced. I am talking now for the City of Dublin. I do not know enough about the situation in the country areas, and anyway my first duty is to my constituents in Dublin. I have been putting the problem from the point of view of Dublin and I hope that it will be given some consideration. One cannot segregate in Dublin the functions of local government, in so far as they affect the citizen, from the functions associated with the central Executive in regard to finance and other matters. Everything is tied up. The finding of money for social services and schemes for housing, the finding of money for running the State and for the administration of local government is an important factor, but all these are interrelated.

I want to go back to Deputy Esmonde's statement. There was something in the remark which I interjected about the safety of the roads. I do not agree that road improvement is not a factor. I will concede to the Deputy that the primary factors in most of these cases are something like carelessness on the part of the driver, drink, recklessness and so forth. It is, however, a significant thing that most of these accidents occur where there is some peculiar feature associated with the road that renders accidents more likely at that spot than at others. It is very obvious there should be some such relation. If I am driving recklessly, or if I am drunk while driving, and if I have a good straight road, I am more likely to keep on it, but if I meet a badly banked portion or a bad bend, that is the spot where I am likely to run off. That is elementary common sense. But the corollary is this, that while paying due attention to such things as the personal factor and admitting that they are primary, the other factor is still associated therewith and you will be contributing to the remedy by improving that.

I am sure Deputy Esmonde spoke from the security of his knowledge in the course of his professional duties, but there are many others who have had similar experiences and I think he will be the first to agree that there are very few running-down actions in the courts that are not associated with a bend, a crossroad, or a wrong bank in the curve. There is always some feature of the road associated with it. It is unusual to have a fellow going clean off the road on the straight. You do get collisions on a straight stretch —I will make that exception. While admitting much in what the Deputy has said, I still think there is a good argument for the other side and it is important for us to try to have the roads improved.

He referred to the Bray road. I will content myself with this, that most of the accidents on that road have occurred at places where there is something marked about the road. It may be only a bend, a corner or a crossroads. For that reason one cannot wipe out the road problem by saying it is a question of speed and drivers, because it is not. The speed and the drivers may count, but the condition of the road also counts.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Perhaps you took a wrong meaning out of Deputy Esmonde's references. It would seem you are both arguing the same case.

Major de Valera

I am happy to hear that, so I will not argue any further along that line. What Deputy Esmonde and Deputy Cogan said brings up a matter of great seriousness, but I regard it as more for the Minister for Justice than for the Minister for Local Government. It is this personal factor, being drunk in charge of a car. That is more for the Department of Justice than for the Department of Local Government.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I think it is more a matter for the judge.

Major de Valera

I must remember to tackle the Minister for Justice about it. I want specifically to bring a certain Dublin situation to the attention of the Minister for Local Government. I want him to expedite the housing drive in regard to the city. I want him to appreciate the peculiar situation I outlined in connection with housing and the problem of transferring people to outside houses. I want him to realise the need for coordinating communications with the housing drive and, lastly, the need for looking into the problems which have arisen through restriction of credit and rising rates and their repercussions on housing. I ask the Minister to help us by giving us the material upon which to bite, so that our arguments could be brought down to earth as it were.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 16 Jun 1948