Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 1948

Vol. 111 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 11—Employment and Emergency Schemes (Resumed).

Mr. Kissane

When the Dáil adjourned on Friday last I was speaking on this Estimate and was referring to the failure of the present Administration to provide work for the unemployed in the constituency that I have the honour to represent. I pointed out to the Parliamentary Secretary that the minor employment schemes that used to be carried out during the spring and summer months were not being carried out this year, and I wanted to know the reason for that. As everybody knows, there is a great deal of unemployment in the country to-day, especially in rural Ireland, and when one remembers the fine promises that were made by the spokesmen of the present inter-Party Government during the last general election, and before it, about the way in which they would provide full employment for the people if they were elected to power, one is amazed to find that up to now very little has been done to implement those promises. I was inclined to think that this absence of employment was more or less confined to North Kerry, the constituency that I represent, but I find that there are similar complaints in other counties.

I see on the Order Paper to-day two questions—Questions 11 and 12—dealing with the same thing. Question 11 was asked by Deputy Roddy of Sligo. He asked the Minister for Finance if he would state when the minor relief scheme and the rural improvements scheme would be put into operation in County Sligo, so it can be seen that not alone in North Kerry are people complaining of lack of work but also in Sligo and other counties. Also, Deputy Killilea asked the Minister for Finance if he will state whether it is intended to proceed with the minor drainage relief schemes this year, and if so, when he will have a list of such schemes ready. It is an extraordinary thing to find in the early part of July Deputies in this House putting down questions to ask the Parliamentary Secretary why schemes of work are not available for the people in rural Ireland. It is very hard to understand what the policy of the present Government is at all towards this question of employment. There is a bigger number of unemployed in the country to-day than there has been for many years.

If we take the unemployment figure for the 26th June, we find that the total number of persons on the registers of employment exchanges and branch offices during the week ending June 26th, were 45,269, compared with 40,483 during the corresponding period of last year. That does not tell the whole story, because in the recent employment period Order, which was put into effect in the middle of June, certain classes of people were put outside the scope of the Unemployment Assistance Acts, and, of course, when these people find themselves ineligible for unemployment benefits they do not think it worth their while to register at employment exchanges. The problem of unemployment is with us to-day more than ever. It has reached alarming proportions despite the assurances that we got from members opposite about the way in which they were going to provide work for the people if they were given the responsibility of office. The question of full employment was spoken of on every platform throughout the country, but instead of any attempt being made to provide full employment we have less employment for the people. Added to the number of unemployed who would ordinarily be with us, we have this year those people who have been disemployed by reason of the closing down of the hand-won turf industry. I understand that I am precluded from dwelling on that under this Vote, but, however, we will have the opportunity of dealing with it at another time. Because of the Government's failure—at least I should say owing to a great extent to the Government's failure—to provide employment for the people—I am concerned for the moment with the people in rural Ireland—there is mass emigration. Emigration was never so rampant in rural Ireland as it is to-day and the peculiar thing about it is that those people who tried to condemn the previous Government for this evil of emigration, trying to make out that they were responsible for it, seem to be quite complacent about the question to-day, because they themselves are in office and what they described as "a great national evil, a cancer on the body politic" is now accepted as commonplace. It is attributed now to such causes as wanderlust and a desire on the part of our people to see the world outside, but by no chance would they say that it is due to the failure or the inability of the Government to provide the necessary work for the people. They tell us now naïvely that it is an ordinary development that would take place in any country. Even quite recently the Minister for Agriculture told us that he had no fault to find with the phenomenon of emigration. On the contrary, he said that he would like to see parents in this country having families of 21——

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Donnellan)

That is very reasonable.

Mr. Kissane

——so that 20 could emigrate and one stay at home to look after the old homestead. We can see, therefore, that what was regarded as a national disgrace before the change of Government is now regarded as a normal development.

One item I would like to refer to here is the field drainage scheme. I do not know whether the present Parliamentary Secretary has any responsibility for it, but this field drainage scheme was designed for the purpose of providing employment for those people who lost their employment through the closing of the turf industry. I think that £4 per statute acre is an unreasonable contribution to ask of those people who are supposed to benefit from the scheme. After all, I think £4 per acre would represent nearly half the amount that would be expended on the scheme, and I would like to draw a comparison between this scheme and the rural improvements scheme. Under the rural improvements scheme, beneficiaries are called upon to contribute 25 per cent. and I heard Deputies in this House during the course of the debate stating that in their opinion 25 per cent. was too much to ask of those people who make applications under the rural improvements scheme. I think there is substance in their complaint. I think that 25 per cent. is a fairly high percentage to expect the people to contribute, but if 25 per cent is regarded as excessive in the case of the rural improvements scheme, surely 50 per cent. would be very excessive in connection with the administration of this other scheme I referred to, the field drainage scheme. In any case, we have had very little information as to how that scheme is operating, because I understand that it has been confined so far to western counties.

Mr. Donnellan

You know the reason why.

Mr. Kissane

Why?

Mr. Donnellan

On account of the unemployed turf workers in those two counties.

Mr. Kissane

Is it the intention to extend it to other counties?

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister for Agriculture says that that is so. This is just an experiment.

Mr. Kissane

I should like if the Parliamentary Secretary would tell us whether it has been a success or a failure in the counties where it has been in operation. Before I sit down I should like to say that the officials in the employment schemes office are, in my opinion, the most hard-working officials in the service of the State and that they can be complimented on the way in which they have handled and are handling a difficult problem.

Mr. Donnellan

Definitely, that is so.

Mr. Kissane

Despite the fact that their task is a difficult one, those of us who have occasion to approach them from time to time find them helpful and courteous in the extreme, and I think their example could be very usefully emulated by other branches of the Civil Service.

Mr. A. Byrne

I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that over 1,000 men have lost their employment at the turf depôts at the North Wall, Alexandra Basin, and the Phoenix Park. I should like to know if the Parliamentary Secretary is in a position to recommend the formation of an immediate relief scheme to give opportunities to these men to go back to work again. When I was at the North Wall a few weeks ago before the cessation of the turf scheme I met a number of the workers there. The young single men told me that if they could get work they would prefer to stay in their own country, but that if they did not get work soon they would emigrate and not come back again. One of the foremen in charge told me that at a day's notice he could get employment for at least 200 of these men in an English district. I implored these men not to go away for a little while anyway.

I asked the foreman if there was any remedy he could suggest as there was no use in blaming anybody for the fact that turf production had ceased. He said that at the extension of the Alexandra Basin there was a glorious site for the making of cement blocks for house building at which these men could be employed as it was the simplest form of work. He suggested that if a cement block-making industry was established the North Wall area offered both shipping and railway facilities. Cement could be brought in there without very much trouble. He drew my attention to the fact that when we could import cement there was a jetty adjoining the turf depôt at the Alexandra Basin where cement could be unloaded and that such an industry would give continuous employment and provide much needed material for the big housing programme which we expect to see started soon. I put that before the Parliamentary Secretary as an idea which I approve of. If the Parliamentary Secretary would consider such a scheme for the employment of those who were engaged on turf work he would be doing a good day's work not alone for these men but for the building industry. He would be providing us with materials to go ahead with the building of houses in a much speedier manner than at present.

Some speakers I notice were blaming somebody for turf work being brought to an end, as if it were brought to an end by any deliberate action. So far as Dublin City is concerned, you could hardly get some of our people to take turf for nothing. They got such a dose of bad, wet turf during the last five, six or seven years that they have taken a dislike to it and, no matter how good it is, you could hardly get them to go back to turf again. I remember seeing turf briquettes which had been made at Lullymore or some other place, and they were a magnificent production. They were given out to factories and in some places by the boards of assistance to the most deserving section of our people. If you want to get turf production going again, you will have to develop that industry.

An Ceann Comhairle

Turf production is not relevant to this Vote.

Mr. A. Byrne

I was just suggesting that if we wanted to keep it going——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may lead others along a broad road.

Mr. A. Byrne

I shall not deal with it any further. There is no use in shutting our eyes to the fact that unemployment is growing rapidly in the City of Dublin. It is the duty of the Government and the Parliamentary Secretary's Department to see that those who are disemployed because of the completion of one form of Government work will be provided with some other employment.

Mr. Kitt

The two schemes under this Vote that affect rural Ireland are the minor relief scheme and the rural improvements scheme. The minor relief scheme was brought in by the Fianna Fáil Government in the autumn of 1932 to give employment to those who were unemployed. Several Deputies have criticised the operation of the minor relief schemes as people did not register in one area, while in another area they did register. In fact we had quite a lot of people registering, say, in area X. and people not registering in area Z. Some of these people could not get work in the next townland. I hold that on account of people registering in certain places and people in other places not registering certain works were undertaken which were not as important as works that are left outstanding in other places and should have been undertaken long before.

A priority list should be drawn up for the purpose of ensuring that the most useful works which require to be executed will be carried out first. That system should be adopted even if it entailed a sort of mobile unit to transfer unemployed from one area into another—somewhat on the lines of what happened during the emergency, when turf workers were brought in lorries from one area to another. That would, in addition, give employment to those people who bought lorries but who now have no work, because they could be engaged in transferring the workers from one area to another. As things are at the moment, if a worker has to go a certain distance for employment he can refuse the work and still draw the dole.

With regard to money which was voted by the Board of Works to the county councils to provide employment for the displaced turf workers, I would point out that in our county we received a grant of £20,000. The county council, of which I happen to be a member, were asked to subsidise that amount to the tune of £6,666. We had, therefore, to place an extra burden of 3d. in the £ for the next year on the ratepayers of County Galway in order to get that grant. The rate which was struck this year for County Galway is the highest ever recorded in County Galway and it is a very heavy burden on the people. If that grant was to have been made available at all, it should have been made available in full. We should not have had to ask the ratepayers of County Galway to subsidise the grant we were given in order to help the present Government out of the difficulty they created by the stoppage of the hand-won turf scheme.

The rural improvements scheme was another very useful scheme which was introduced in the early days of the war by the Fianna Fáil Government. I understand that there is to be a change in the way these schemes are going to be carried out and that a special board is being set up to deal with them. In County Galway these schemes have been carried out up to the present by the county surveyor, the county council officials and the workers directly involved. I have no objection to the manner in which they are carried out provided they are carried out but I would say that the old system was very satisfactory in our county. When the people filled up a form and lodged their money to get one of these schemes carried out they had not to wait very long until the work was done and they had a chance of earning their money back.

Mr. Donnellan

Possibly the Deputy was not in the House the other day when I was speaking to Deputy Killilea on the matter. Deputy Kitt is a member of the local authority himself and he must realise that the County Manager for Galway has informed us that they cannot carry out these schemes now. Therefore, we have to do that ourselves now.

Mr. Kitt

I was in the House when the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the matter to Deputy Killilea. The Parliamentary Secretary should not, however, think that because I do not happen to be a member of this House for very long his interruptions will upset me.

Mr. Donnellan

It was merely a point of explanation.

Mr. Kitt

I heard what the Parliamentary Secretary had to say on the day in question and I have read it since. I know that the County Manager in County Galway has stated that they cannot co-operate with the Board of Works now but the people were quite satisfied with the way the work was being carried out. I believe that the county surveyor and his officials would still be prepared to carry it out but for the fact that a new board is being set up. I would urge that that board will see to it that the work is carried out as quickly as was the case heretofore. I have often filled up forms for people who applied for such schemes. Some of them were very poor people living in boreens and culs-de-sac. They would lodge one quarter of the money and they would do so in the hope that they would be able to earn back not alone the amount they paid in but the other three-quarters as well. They often have great difficulty in scraping this money together among themselves—perhaps four or five small farmers. Two receipts were given to me for works under the rural improvements scheme. The people concerned have asked me to find out if the works are going to be carried out and, if not, to get the money back. One receipt, dated 26th March, 1948, is for a sum of £25, and the other is for a sum of £40. These receipts are in respect of a road at Sruffane, Caltra, and a road at Kilglass, Ahascragh. Although this money has been collected by the people concerned for each of these roads there is still no sign of the work being executed. These people do not get money on the side of the road. They do not want it lodged in Dublin for a considerable time without having some chance of earning back not alone what they have paid in but the extra money as well. I have been asked by the people concerned to raise this matter and I am doing that. It is immaterial to me whether the work is carried out by the special board or in the old way by the county council so long as it is carried out. Let me quote from the Official Report of the 14th April, 1948:—

"Deputy Beegan asked the Minister for Finance if he proposes to amend the rural improvements scheme to provide that the full estimated cost of repairing roads other than culs-de-sac will be made available from State funds on condition that the county council is prepared to take these roads over and maintain them as county roads after repair is carried out; and, if so, whether he will state the minimum width (if any) to be specified for such roads in order to qualify for a grant.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Donnellan): Under the existing procedure for the rural improvements scheme, a grant can be made for the repair of any road which connects two county roads, without requiring a contribution from the adjoining landholders, provided that:—

(1) the link is of sufficient importance as a public road; (2) the cost is not excessive in relation to its utility; (3) the work is not one which the county council would otherwise have done out of their own funds; and (4) the county council, with the approval of the Minister for Local Government, undertake to maintain the road on completion."

That was the first part of the reply to the question. We in County Galway were very glad to hear that reply. We decided to avail of it and, accordingly, on the motion of Mr. Beegan, we set up a special roads meeting. We have not actually held this meeting yet, but each councillor has been requested to send in details of roads in his own particular area that can be described as link roads which join up two county roads. As a result of this roads meeting we intend to forward a list of these roads to the Board of Works so that their improvement and repair will be carried out. Once that work is carried out I am quite sure the county council will agree to maintain them. There are some roads in our area which would never be touched under these minor employment schemes. One of these is the Gowla road. Possibly there was a little spent on it once since the employment schemes first came into operation in 1932. This road connects the Mount Bellew-Ballyforan road with the Castlefrench-Ahascragh road. There is another road in Fohenagh, Ahascragh, where the Land Commission did part of the work. I spoke of it in the Department of Lands debate. If there were a small addition to it it would be a convenient link for people going to fairs and so on. There is another through Castlegar-Ahascragh to mention but some. If the county council agrees to maintain these roads I hope the Board of Works will see its way to repairing them.

Field drainage has been mentioned in this debate. I understand it can only be referred to in so far as it provides employment for those who have been thrown out of work as a result of the stoppage of the hand-won turf scheme. I come from a county in which this scheme is in operation. I have this much criticism to make of the scheme: I think the £4 per acre that the farmers are being asked to pay is excessive when one takes into consideration the rateable valuation of the farms most in need of this work. Some of these farmers' valuations run roughly from £2 10s. to £10. Naturally farmers on such a low valuation could never avail of this scheme. We have not got a big number of landlords now but we have big landowners—fairly well-to-do farmers and farmer shopkeepers. These are the only people who are able to avail of this scheme in my area because they are the only people who can afford to pay for it. I am surprised that there has not been some criticism, particularly from the Labour Deputies, of the Government subsidising a scheme to benefit the wealthier landowners in the Counties Galway and Mayo.

Last week I saw a copy of the Connacht Tribune dated 3rd July, 1948. In that I read the following extract from a speech made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance:—

"No Unemployment.

The Government had sent down £20,000 to the county council to provide alternative work for the turf workers; and Deputies Killilea and Kitt had stated in the Dáil that there were 3,000 people unemployed in County Galway. His Department dealt with unemployment and he could tell them that if they knew of any man looking for employment he (Mr. Donnellan) would have a job for him in the morning. It was well known that there were no unemployed but Fianna Fáil stooped to deliberate lying to blackguard the Government."

I shall not read any more of it.

Mr. Donnellan

Continue. It was the truth.

Mr. Kitt

I shall not inflict the rest of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech on this House.

Mr. Donnellan

It was the truth.

Mr. Kitt

The Parliamentary Secretary has accused me of deliberate lying. He says that the extract I have read now is the truth. I challenge him to produce a scintilla of evidence from the official record of this House or from any speech that I have made showing that I have told a deliberate falsehood and that he has told the truth. Is the Parliamentary Secretary now accusing me of telling deliberate falsehoods?

Mr. Donnellan

Any man who says there is unemployment in North Galway is telling deliberate falsehood. I was in the Deputy's town last week and I asked any unemployed man there to put his hand up. Not one single hand was raised though there were at least 2,000 people listening to me.

Mr. Kitt

I say there are unemployed in County Galway and I hold that I am not telling a deliberate falsehood in saying that.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

You are entitled to your opinion.

Mr. Kitt

The Parliamentary Secretary bases his assumption that there are no unemployed in County Galway on the incorrect premise that he asked for a show of hands at a particular meeting of his and no hands were raised. He adopted these schoolboy tactics with his own supporters in the square at Mount Bellew. There was no one at that meeting except his own supporters. Some of them were drafted in by lorry from Corofin and Turloughmore. Lorries are not permitted to take people to G.A.A. matches but they can be used to bring a Parliamentary Secretary's supporters to his meetings. He asked his own supporters if any of them were out of work knowing perfectly well that none of them would put his hand up. He comes along then and he says that there is no unemployment in County Galway. I say that there are unemployed in County Galway.

Last year £116,000 was paid out between 2,000 and 3,000 turf workers in Galway. What is the alternative this year? A sum of £20,000 with a contribution from the county council of £6,666, and this field drainage scheme. The total availing of that so far in Galway and Mayo is 28. This is to provide for those who were working on the bogs last year. Some people were working on the bogs for six years before that. Last year when tar became available some of those who had been working on the bogs in the intervening years were called back by the county council to road work. Now these are unemployed. A few days ago a married can came to me and told me about a river that is being done under this special scheme through his land and they could not get work on it. Had he and his three sons been in the square in Mount Bellew they could all have put their hands up. Being a Fianna Fáil supporter, he did not happen to be there.

Mr. Donnellan

They are getting scarce.

Mr. Kitt

The crowd would have been scarce at your meetings only they were able to come in lorries for long distances, the same as in the Blueshirt days.

I would like to mention a matter that was referred to by Deputy Killilea the other night—the rumours that were being spread in my constituency to the effect that any representations made by Deputy Killilea or myself would be of no use and that the Parliamentary Secretary was using his office to further his own interests. We got an assurance the other night that that is not so. The rumours were probably started by over-enthusiastic supporters of the Parliamentary Secretary in order to further Clann na Talmhan interests in the constituency. Since I was elected here, I know that in every Department which I visited—and I have been in the Board of Works as well—my representations were listened to and I got replies from and satisfaction in every Department. I hope, as Deputy Killilea said, that that condition of things will continue, that the rumours we have heard are unfounded, and that Deputies, particularly on this side of the House, will not be victimised simply because they happen to be sitting in these benches.

I hope that the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary, that there is no unemployment in County Galway, will not be used by him as a lever so that we will not get any of these minor relief schemes this year; I hope that he will not use that as an excuse. I can tell him that there are plenty of unemployed, and I sincerely hope that some of the minor employment schemes will come to the constituency which the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Killilea and myself represent.

Mr. Palmer

A great deal of humbug has been spoken in connection with these Estimates. Indeed, Deputies opposite seem to be infected with some sort of fever arising out of turf. I suppose one might call it "bogitis". It would be well if all these turf dumps disappeared, so that those Deputies could get away from talking about turf on different Estimates. Money was voted in order to give employment to those who were supposed to be unemployed because of the stoppage of the hand-won turf scheme. It has been found in various areas that people cannot get any men to carry out work. In one district in my area, a fortnight after a scheme came into operation, a ganger could find only three men to work on the roads. Notwithstanding that, we have all this talk from Fianna Fáil Deputies about great unemployment. There is no purpose served by talking about unemployment caused through the cessation of turf schemes. There is too much talk entirely about unemployment.

If work under a rural improvements scheme, a minor employment scheme or a field drainage scheme is to be carried out, attention should be given first of all to the work that has to be done; the question of employment should be only secondary. This money, the taxpayers' money, has been misspent in most cases because those who are engaged to carry out the work merely idle their time away. Money was voted by the last Government to give a certain type of employment in order that the Party in power might gather votes in the elections that would follow. Those in charge of the works allowed the men to idle their time. I hope that steps will be taken in the future to ensure in the carrying out of public works that a good return will be given for the money spent. We represent the ratepayers and taxpayers and it is for us to see that our money will not be wasted for political purposes.

I was listening to Deputy Moran, who represents a Mayo constituency. He said it was the duty of the Government to provide work for the people who are unemployed as a result of the stoppage of the turf scheme. The Deputy who finished speaking just now told us that there are 3,000 people unemployed in Galway. In connection with the drainage of the Brosna, only 120 men can be found, whereas there is work for 500. The Brosna is not very far away from the county where 3,000 are supposed to be unemployed. For County Mayo £18,000 was voted for an employment scheme and the county council there, of which Deputy Moran is a member, refused to accept that money. If they were concerned with the welfare of the unemployed, surely they would accept the £18,000 which could be expended in their county. They are doing a great wrong to the unemployed, because there are roads to be improved and bogs to be drained and that could be done if they accepted the money voted to them.

Deputy Kissane said that in North Kerry there was no work for the people under the minor employment schemes which are usually in operation at this time of the year. Money was voted for North Kerry under the emergency employment schemes. In one area the amount allocated was found to be entirely too much and I am very pleased to say that it was possible to transfer £690 to South Kerry. If there was any unemployment in North Kerry Deputy Kissane would see to it that they would keep the money there and not let it go south to us.

I understood that on the minor and rural employment schemes work is usually carried out in the winter and the early spring. That is only right; if it is not so it should be so. In an agricultural country all our people could find work on the land from spring to the end of autumn and we should not divert them to other works. I would not be displeased if the money recently voted to give employment to those supposed to be unemployed because of the stoppage of the turf scheme were withheld until farm work would be done. Those schemes could be carried out when the farmers would no longer require the services of labourers. You cannot get men to work on the land when they can engage on these schemes and can idle their time perhaps a good deal.

In the rural improvements scheme there are at least two weaknesses. Let us say a scheme is to be carried out in order to provide an accommodation road. There may be six people interested, but for some reason one or two may not sign; they may not wish the work to be carried out. That is a great weakness and something should be done to overcome it. As regards those who will not put up the money, it is not that they will not use the road or benefit by the scheme, but they may not be friendly with neighbours. That has often been found. The other weakness is this, that in many very poor districts those who require a road or drainage may not be able to put up the money. It would be well if some provision could be made so that they could give a guarantee that they would give employment to the extent of the money they are supposed to put up, in other words, that they would do the work and when they were being paid, that so much would be retained until the amount they were supposed to subscribe would be fully met.

In connection with minor employment schemes, we have experienced great difficulty from the fact that certain very necessary works in some electoral areas cannot be carried out because there is not a sufficient number of unemployed registered in that area. I think that Deputy Hogan referred to this matter also. In one electoral area where, as I say, very necessary work was awaiting attention you would have perhaps only six unemployed, whereas in an adjoining electoral area there would be a very large number of unemployed. Yet under existing regulations these men cannot be brought to carry out this very necessary work in the neighbouring electoral area. I think that in such cases there should be a greater attempt at co-ordination by joining certain areas so that schemes of that character could be carried out.

In connection with field drainage, some Deputies seem to think that £4 per acre is too much to expect from any farmer as a contribution. I understand that under that scheme the Government proposes to pay £12 for every £4 contributed by the farmer. Under such conditions, a farmer who gets a field drained for £4 per acre gets a very good bargain. We have only to cast our minds back 20, 30 or 40 years ago to recall when our farmers had to drain their land, make their roads, and do all their work without getting any grants or payments of this kind. Now it seems that they have been so spoon-fed that some of them will not even take the trouble to dig a sod out of a little stream on their own land. They want the Government to do it. I believe that it would be a good thing if we could get our people to realise that they must rely more on themselves and not be looking to the Government for everything. While it is well to improve our roads, to drain our land and make country life bright and happy, and while it should be the function of the Government to give all the support possible, the people should be taught to help themselves so far as they possibly can.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I am interested in trying to get alternative employment for people from County Dublin who were discharged from the fuel dumps in the Park and who were also sacked from Collinstown Aerodrome. A number of these men have been with me day after day seeking employment and I am very anxious that the Parliamentary Secretary would do something for them. In the course of the debate on the Finance Bill, the Minister for Finance told me that if I could get 500 unemployed men for him he would be very grateful. I put down a question about a week after that and told him that I could get that number for him. As usual, that question was hedged and, like so many other proposals of the inter-Party Government, it is now in abeyance. I heard Deputy Palmer stating that any scheme on which the unemployed could be set to work would be welcome. I agree with that, but one suggestion with which I do not agree is that the way in which the work should be carried out is a secondary consideration. We have an obligation here to the citizens of the country as a whole. We have a duty to see that the burdens imposed on these people are lightened as much as possible and to make what representations we can to ensure that those who need work will be provided with suitable work. Although it has been alleged that we have been trying to get jobs for our friends, so long as I am in public life any influence I can exercise, let it be in commercial life or in any other sphere, I shall exercise to see that any man in my constituency will be employed, no matter what his political views are.

I desire to call attention to another problem facing certain constituents of mine. It affects a number of people, especially men who are working in a civilian capacity in military barracks: Judging by the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Defence, the Vote for civilian employment is to be reduced by about £50,000. I am given to understand that there is a certain number employed in a camp in North County Dublin——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should have raised that matter on Vote 10—the Office of Public Works.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Very well. It means that there will be more unemployed on the market anyway and I am deeply concerned about these people. Deputy Byrne referred to a number of men who had left the North Wall. Some of those who were employed there are constituents of mine. I think it is the business of the Parliamentary Secretary to see that the Government carries out some of their big pre-election promises, some of the great miracles which they promised to perform if they got into power. They should at least do something to obviate the necessity of these people lining up, looking for permits to get out of the country.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present. House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. P.J. Burke

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to intimate when he is replying if it is his intention to introduce some minor relief schemes to provide employment for people who have been discharged by Fuel Importers Limited from the Park and for those who have been discharged by the authorities controlling Aer Lingus at Collinstown.

We have heard a lot about rural improvement schemes and, in that connection again, we have a problem in County Dublin. I have raised this matter with the previous Parliamentary Secretary and I raise it again now. The position is that a number of people will agree to get work done in their area under a rural improvements scheme—let it be drainage, the making of a by-road or a laneway into a house —but they then find that one or two other people will not agree to the work being done, with the result that people who are anxious to get the work carried out are held up. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to interest himself in that matter with a view to helping these people.

I do not know if I am in order in mentioning them, but there are other schemes of drainage work which could be undertaken as minor relief schemes in County Dublin. I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary that it is not his intention to bless County Dublin with the arterial drainage scheme at the moment, but I suggest that, when it is possible to put these minor relief schemes in operation, he should consider some of the rivers in the north and south county, about which I have already made representations. If he could get work on these rivers carried out as a minor relief scheme, I should be very grateful.

There is another problem which we have along the coast, that is, extensive erosion. I understand that the Government will not accept responsibility in the matter and I realise that it does not arise on this Vote, but I wonder if it would be possible for the Parliamentary Secretary to bring the matter in under a minor relief scheme. A very small expenditure on work from Skerries to Rush and around Donabate and Malahide would prevent a good deal of the erosion which is taking place there. There are also a number of culs-de-sac and small roads not taken over by the Dublin County Council, and while a number of minor relief schemes are carried out on main roads and administered by the Dublin County Council, I feel that, if these minor relief schemes were applied to some of these laneways, and especially to the prairie tracks made by the Land Commission from time to time, it would be more serviceable. The widening of main and secondary roads and the taking off of corners, instead of being carried out by means of minor relief schemes and unemployment grants could be done directly through the county council road grant. Such work would bring about improvement in the condition of many of these laneways. The Parliamentary Secretary may tell me that these people can take advantage of the rural improvement schemes, but the fact is that, in nine cases out of ten, there is always somebody who will object, with the result that the work cannot be carried out. I admit that these schemes are very good, but I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider switching the minor relief schemes to such laneways and bad roads.

I welcome the field drainage scheme, but I am sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary proposes to confine it to his own county and County Mayo. I should like to see the scheme made applicable to certain parts of my constituency. The farm improvements scheme is very good, but the field drainage scheme would, I believe, be very applicable to County Dublin. Although it is regarded as a comparatively dry county, much of the land is under water and has become very sour as a result of its not being drained properly. May I ask if I am in order, Sir, in referring to piers on this Vote?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may discuss anything for which there is money in the Estimate. I do not think there is any money for piers in it.

Mr. Beirne

As a Deputy from a rural constituency, I feel it my duty to show my interest in matters arising on this Vote. All Deputies realise that a very high percentage of the Parliamentary Secretary's duties is connected with the rural parts of the country, and it is noticeable that almost every Deputy from a rural area has made a contribution to the debate. It is consoling and encouraging to have such a man as Parliamentary Secretary as we have to-day. He is a man who, I presume, is thoroughly conversant with conditions in the rural areas. He comes from an area very convenient to mine, where conditions are practically similar, where minor employment and rural employment schemes have been availed of in many instances and where much good has been derived from these schemes. No matter what I say or how I try to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary my great desire for the carrying out of these schemes in rural areas, I know that his views are identical with mine and that my words are falling on sympathetic ears. For that reason, I do not propose to force an open door or to spur a willing horse.

Money expended on these schemes pays a very good dividend, and I doubt if there is any money which we vote in this House which can show a greater dividend, because money spent on rural improvement schemes or minor relief schemes tends to increase production and I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to bear that fact constantly in mind. The more money we spend on this scheme the more land will be put into production, resulting in a considerable advance in our economy.

Of the two schemes we have been discussing, the minor employment scheme and the rural improvement scheme, I presume in all constituencies the minor employment scheme is the more popular. It does not present so many difficulties as the rural improvement scheme. First of all, there is a full cost grant; secondly, there is no necessity to organise for the purpose of collecting local contributions; and, thirdly, it secures the co-operation and goodwill of the people in the district.

I have said, and I emphasise, that it is a most popular scheme and in connection with it an immeasurable amount of work has been done but the scheme should be extended and enlarged and more money should be devoted to it. If we in this House agree to a larger expenditure on this scheme I am sure we will have the co-operation and goodwill of the Parliamentary Secretary. I know that of old. I think, however, that his hands are tied by legislation but I am convinced that if he or the Minister for Finance want such legislation amended or repealed to enable further works to be carried out in accordance with the wishes of Deputies, all Deputies will join in amending the legislation.

The rural improvements scheme has many objectionable features. First, it requires a certain amount of organisation and local initiative. Remember, the job of initiation is not very pleasant because, while certain people may be sympathetic and inclined to contribute willingly, another person may be obstinate and cannot be persuaded to contribute. Secondly, there may be people who are unable to pay although they may be quite willing and anxious to provide the service. There is a further obstacle. There is such a thing as preference being given in the matter of employment and in the selection of a ganger. Generally, a ganger on such a scheme is selected from the people who contribute to the scheme. There is often some jealousy over that, which gives rise to unsatisfactory results and often to the abandonment of the scheme. One man may have three sons eligible for employment on the scheme. Another man may have two sons. There again confusion arises. From that point of view also the scheme is unsatisfactory.

To return to the minor employment scheme, you cannot qualify for a scheme unless there is a certain number of registered unemployed in the district. I think 50 is the number. That proviso should be eliminated from the scheme because the figures in connection with unemployment for these schemes are not altogether accurate and do not present a true picture of the employment position in the area. I rarely hear of a case where money has been returned to the special employment branch when it has been granted to a district. I have known a few cases where money was given where there were no registered unemployed. In particular I remember one case. Prior to the last election, in my own district, a grant was given for a minor employment scheme while in that area there were no registered unemployed at that time. I assume what the reasons were in that particular case.

Mr. Donnellan

Will the Deputy give me particulars of that case?

Mr. Beirne

I would like to assure the Parliamentary Secretary that I have received a reasonable explanation which, up to a point, I am accepting, and I will privately discuss the matter with the Parliamentary Secretary if he wishes. In connection with that scheme I might also mention I have been deprived of information which I thought I should get, while an opposing candidate at the election had got the information. I did not get it. The whole thing was political. The man appointed as ganger happened to be secretary of the local Fianna Fáil club and the persons employed on the scheme were also members of the Fianna Fáil club.

Mr. O'Grady

The Deputy has made a definite statement that he has been refused information supplied to another Deputy. May I ask him to whom he applied for that information and by whom he was refused?

Mr. Beirne

I did not catch what the Deputy said.

Mr. O'Grady

Might I repeat? The Deputy has stated that he has been refused information which was supplied to another Deputy in his area and I would like him to state here to the House to whom he applied for that information and by whom it was refused.

Mr. Beirne

I think the Deputy has misrepresented me. I did not say I was refused. I said information which another person got had not been received by me. I did not make any request for the information whatever.

Mr. O'Grady

Did the Deputy apply for the information?

Mr. Beirne

No, I did not. As a matter of fact, there was very little use in applying for the information when the job was practically done. But that is a fact, I can assure the Deputy, and it is very rarely I refer to these things or stoop to that kind of thing.

Mr. Donnellan

The Deputy does not say it came from the special employment schemes office?

Mr. Beirne

Yes, I do.

Mr. Donnellan

I can guarantee to him that it did not.

Mr. Beirne

I was dealing with the question of the proviso as to the number of registered unemployed in the district. I do not think it is a real or an honest test or that it is a qualification that should be necessary for one of these grants, because very often men who are not normally labouring men, who normally do not work for hire, may be induced to register. I know small farmers have been induced quite recently to register at the employment exchanges as unemployed men. Strictly speaking, these men should not be employed on the schemes and should not be permitted to sign on, for the simple reason that there is sufficient work for them to do on their own land. It is an abuse. On the other hand, I know people who could be regarded as unemployed but who have sufficient pride not to sign on for the dole.

I think the problem of unemployment is greatly exaggerated. In particular areas people who would never be classified as labouring men have been canvassed by certain individuals to register at the labour exchange. These are not really labouring men and never have been. Therefore the figures we get may be regarded as fictitious and unreliable. In County Roscommon, for instance, while there may be a problem in particular areas, the problem is greatly exaggerated. In North Roscommon when we began to import millions of tons of coal, a large industry was closed down. Remember that was prior to the last election. When we were sending emissaries all round the world seeking coal, when we hired 60 ships in America to bring us coal, the Arigna mines were closed down, causing unemployment to 500 or 600 men. Who was responsible for all that? Surely it was not the present Government? We were not satisfied in getting in 12,000 tons a week until November, 1947, when we got a promise of 1,000,000 tons and jumped at it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary has no discretion in that matter.

Mr. Beirne

I link it with the problem of unemployment, which has been highly exaggerated here. Unemployment in Roscommon is due, in the main, to the cessation of the work in the coal mines, which has been brought about by the importation of foreign coal.

I welcome the change in the administration of the grants from the local to the central authority. Like Deputy Palmer, I hold that we were never getting an adequate return for the money we were spending on those schemes. A complete overhaul from the bottom up was needed, from the gangers to the workers, as they have got into a very undesirable groove for some years past, of giving the smallest return possible for the biggest amount of money. I pay tribute to the work administered by county councils. In my county particularly, the county surveyor, deputy surveyor and others did all they possibly could, working under severe difficulties and handicaps. They were overpowered with work on the turf scheme and so on and could not give the supervision necessary. The same applies now, when they are full of work, owing to the recent grants for the relief of unemployment being distributed for work on the roads. These gentlemen are fully occupied and have not got sufficient time to supervise these works, so I welcome the change from the old system.

I do not intend to waste the time of the House in talking of by-roads and culs-de-sac now. At a later date, that question will be raised on a motion sponsored by Deputy Commons and myself.

I know every Deputy who has a grievance regarding conditions of unemployment and other things over which the Parliamentary Secretary has control will have the Parliamentary Secretary's sympathy. He comes from a rural area and knows where the boot pinches the people there. I hope that, when he gets time, he will look into these matters. He is only four months in office and one cannot expect him or the Government to bring down the sun, moon and stars in that time. We must have a bit of patience, especially in view of the obstruction which occurs, not alone inside the House. The delaying programme aims at keeping us here until the 1st September, when we could be better engaged in saving hay or doing other productive work.

Mr. O'Grady

Address that to your colleagues.

Mr. Beirne

Yes, as usual, and to the Deputy also.

Mr. O'Grady

I did not hold the House very long.

Mr. Beirne

I will not spur a free horse. We know we will have the sympathy and co-operation of the Parliamentary Secretary and I hope that, when his term of office comes to a close, we will see many improvements throughout the countryside.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I could not let this debate go without mentioning the way it has been conducted by the Deputies opposite. This Estimate has been used by them to suggest to the people that there is now serious unemployment, of such a degree as we have not known in recent years. Each Fianna Fáil Deputy has made his contribution along those lines. From my own experience and my knowledge of my own constituency, I can say that that suggestion is completely without foundation. I represent Laoighis-Offaly which, in recent years, has been the home of turf production. I am glad to see sitting amongst the few Deputies opposite Deputy Gorry from the same constituency. If there is any constituency that would have been affected by the cessation of turf production, it would have been that constituency. If there was any substance whatsoever in the remarks of Deputy Kissane and other propaganda spokesmen from the benches opposite, we would expect to find in Laoighis-Offaly hundreds of unemployed lining up in the towns clamouring for work. I attend my constituency pretty regularly and have gone through the areas of Offaly from which turf has been produced in abundance in recent years and I find no evidence of any unemployment. I have taken the trouble of inquiring from official sources as to whether there is any return from either Laoighis or Offaly of unemployment and I can find no such return. I know that down in the Brosna, in the heart of the turf area, a great national scheme has been commenced which requires 500, possibly 1,000, men, who cannot be got. The entire number obtained to date is 126, from this home of turf production in Offaly. What is the sense in Deputy Kissane and others talking sheer nonsense and suggesting there is unemployment?

Mr. Kissane

Has the Deputy seen the unemployment figures?

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I know from the Parliamentary Secretary, and it will be stated here and has been stated on a number of occasions, that 500 men are required there and only 126 have been obtained. I do not know what information Deputy Kissane has about unemployment in North Kerry, but if he has any I am sure he will be willing to give it to the House, instead of making general statements about appalling unemployment. The figures for unemployment are not available yet, but I am certain that we will find no difference in them as between this year and last year.

Mr. Kissane

There is a difference to be seen already.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Do not talk nonsense. The test of such a suggestion is to find where men are willing to work. If unemployment is causing hardship, any man so unemployed would be very anxious to obtain employment of a lucrative nature. The fact is that, right down through the turf areas, farmers are clamouring for labour and cannot find workmen to work the land for them. There is the Brosna scheme which is in danger of being held up because labour cannot be found. In the face of such facts the Deputies opposite must be very hard pressed for a bit of propaganda when they suggest and try to create in their own minds the belief, that the figures in regard to unemployment have reached astronomical proportions. There is no foundation whatever for that suggestion. I regret very much that this debate has been used for such a purpose by the Deputies opposite. Of course, it is only part of the very unnational campaign which they have been conducting since February last. They now find themselves in a political wildernesss and are going around prepared to hit at anything, much like a boxer suffering from the effects of a very bad blow.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I suggest to the Deputy that he should now come to the Estimate.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

The suggestion has been made by the Deputies opposite that there is, apparently, extreme unemployment in the country, and I think that I am entitled to reply to that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has said three times that there is not, and I take it that is sufficient.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I think that if I were to reply to all the suggestions made in that regard on the Estimate I would have to repeat it 15 times, but in deference to the Chair I will leave it. I also listened to certain remarks made by Deputy Kissane when he was dealing with the rural improvements scheme. His suggestion was that a contribution of 25 per cent. to the cost from the people intended to benefit under the scheme would place too much of a burden on them, and that it should be changed. It may not be popular and perhaps not good, politically, to say that the sooner we in this country get back to that spirit of self-help and of self-reliance mentioned by Deputy Palmer the better it will be for the people. In the past, there was too much of a tendency, in connection with all these schemes, to dole out work and charity to the people. By that policy we have taken away from them that spirit of self-reliance which, in the past, made the Irish farmer respected throughout Europe. The contribution asked for under this scheme is a necessary one. Where a scheme is carried out, it confers a benefit on the particular area selected. Why, therefore, should any Deputy suggest that the entire cost of it should fall on taxpayers living perhaps hundreds of miles away from that area? I wonder would Deputy Kissane like to suggest to the people in a particular area in his constituency that, by way of contribution, they should pay for work done in an area that was 40 or 50 miles away from them?

Mr. Kissane

It was Deputy Commons who suggested that.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

The Deputy himself made the suggestion in my hearing.

Mr. Kissane

I was quoting what the other Deputy had suggested.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

And I take it you were agreeing with it.

Mr. Kissane

I was.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I also heard, I think, Deputy Kitt, and perhaps other Deputies, refer to contributions expected from county councils in respect of grants made to them in connection with the provision of alternative employment, following the cessation of hand-won turf production. Again, the suggestion was made that these grants should not be dependent on a contribution from the county councils. Under the county council hand-won turf schemes, the money to pay the labour employed on them came from the county councils. As regards taxation, it does not seem to matter a lot whether it is raised from the rates or is part of the national revenue, or whether the entire contribution is going to fall as a national charge or is to come in part from the rates; but where a benefit is being conferred on a particular county, where there is to be alleviation of possible unemployment, it seems to me only fair and reasonable that the people there should, in some way, contribute to the cost of such alleviation, and not the people in Dublin or in other cities or in other counties, because the latter derive no benefit whatever from the alleviation that is given in a particular county. It seems to me, therefore, that in the case of these schemes a contribution is fair and reasonable in the circumstances.

There is one other matter, the field drainage scheme, which is covered by the Estimate. I certainly commend the Parliamentary Secretary on this scheme, and I think it is an excellent one. It is one of the best schemes of this type that has been put forward in the country for a number of years. I would like to impress upon him the necessity for extending it to other counties affected by drainage. If I describe Laoighis-Offaly as the home of turf production, I think I can also describe it as the home of water. There are no two counties more affected by drainage and flooding, or with more idle land due to the lack of drainage, than these two. I hope this scheme will be extended so as to alleviate the problem of flooding and field drainage in Laoighis-Offaly as soon as possible. I think that the charge made in connection with it is not unreasonable. I know that in Offaly, and in parts of Laoighis, there are many farmers who would be willing to pay far more than is being asked if they had the assurance that their idle land, due to flooding, was going to be restored to a condition of fertility. That, however, is a matter on which I certainly would accept the views of the Parliamentary Secretary. I do want to impress on him the necessity of extending this scheme to other counties, and particularly to Laoighis-Offaly.

I do not think there is anything more I have to say on the Estimate except to join with the other Deputies who referred to one of the defects in the special employment schemes, namely, the fact that labour cannot be moved from one electoral area to another. I think that is a defect and I certainly would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that where work which is urgent and necessary in one area is found to exist, the fact that there are not the necessary number of registered unemployed there should not prevent an employment scheme from being commenced in that area.

Mr. Beegan

The importance of the Board of Works as a branch of a Government Department has for the past 16 years been brought nearer to the every-day life of the people in rural Ireland than it was at any previous time. It was not easy to educate the people to that point of view, that the Board of Works was a body that would take their grievances and hardships into consideration. Certainly, as it was formed and manned at one time, it is easy to understand why they should hold a very black view of it. One of the first schemes introduced here by the late Deputy Hugo Flinn, go ndéanaidh Dia trocaire air, was the minor relief scheme. I am sure that he had a very difficult task in impressing upon the Department of Finance the necessity for making sufficient money available. From my knowledge and from what I have heard of that particular Department—I suppose it is as well they are in certain cases so strait-laced—I believe there was nothing short of moans and gasps when they heard of a scheme like that being put into operation. As time went on, and when the bog development scheme, the rural improvements scheme and the farms improvements scheme were put into operation, I can very well understand the feelings of the officials in that Department. But, nevertheless, the Parliamentary Secretaries who occupied the post during the term of office of Fianna Fáil insisted, for the greater part, that their policy and intentions should be given effect to. I hope and believe that the present occupant of the chair is also well intentioned, but he has his obstacles to contend with. I am saying this by way of advice and encouragement to him, not to be discouraged at first, but to keep on insisting and to get the money which is very badly needed for two things. One is to get very much-needed facilities for the farming community of the country, and the other is to relieve the unemployment problem that existed, that still exists, and that will exist, unless some very big steps forward are taken. One thing which I dislike in this Vote—I suppose the Parliamentary Secretary will tell me that it is the Estimate of his predecessor— is that as far as unemployment is concerned, it is not a much larger Vote. It is, of course, the Estimate of his predecessor, but things have changed considerably since that Estimate was prepared. I would not be allowed, of course, to dwell at any length on the abandonment of the hand-won turf scheme, but I do think that I am quite relevant——

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

That is lucky for Deputy Lemass.

Mr. Beegan

——in relating to it the unemployment that exists at present, and any amount of employment does exist at present.

A Deputy

We are sick of that.

Mr. Beegan

The Parliamentary Secretary's position has been made an impossible and intolerable one at the present time because of the policy of retrenchment enshrined in the recent Budget. Not merely is there more unemployment—and I want this to sink into the people who represent labour and the people who claim to be interested in the small farmer—but there is a big reduction in the weekly income of the rural workers, the manual labourers of the West of Ireland as a result of the abandonment of that scheme. Other schemes have been spoken of as a means of finding alternative employment. I know a family in the West of Ireland where two young men brought in an average for seven months of the year of £11 a week. Even if they are fortunate enough to get employment on these schemes to-day, what amount will they bring in per week? They will bring in just half that amount. It might be all right to say that they are lucky enough to find employment——

Mr. McQuillan

That is why turf will not be burned in Dublin.

Mr. Beegan

It is all very well to say that that is why turf will not be burned in Dublin, but it is immaterial to the men who have been thrown out of employment and who are on the unemployed list whether turf is any use in Dublin or not. They were in receipt of an income that was cut away from them.

A Deputy

Was it not Mr. de Valera who cut them out?

Mr. Beegan

I am not giving any heed to interruptions and I am going ahead with my speech, but I might give a few broadsides before I am finished. It is just like a death in the family. The day of the death, the day of the corpse house, the night of the wake and the day of the funeral, the loss is only felt as a sentimental one, but it is when all the friends are gone away and the people have to undertake the duties that the one who has departed was helping them to undertake, that the material loss is added to the sentimental loss and it is then that the grief is somewhat deeper.

We hear a lot about lowering taxation and the necessity for lowering taxation. I do not stand for the lowering of taxation if it means increasing unemployment. In the case of those people who have had their incomes reduced, when the suit of clothes that they have and were capable of buying and paying for cash down on the counter as a result of the much-abused Fianna Fáil scheme is becoming a bit threadbare, will they find that the draper is agreeable to give them a similar suit of clothes for half the price?

By three weeks' labour last year they were capable of earning £16 10s. 0d. which would dress them from head to heel with a suit of clothes, underwear, stockings, boots and shoes, but it would take six weeks of their time this year. That is something which people should try to understand, because that is the position to-day. It is all right for well-to-do farmers to say: "We are glad that this thing has come about, because we now can get a man for 7/- a day for the few weeks we want him, while we had to pay him 15/- a day last year for the same type of work." That is the position the Parliamentary Secretary is presented with and that is the problem he has to solve.

We hear a good deal about inflation. The cardinal virtues of the inter-Party Government seem to be retrenchment, economy, hard work, and deflation. From whom is the hard work going to come? The people who have always worked hard in this country are the small farmers and those who are termed—it is not a proper or appropriate term—the unskilled labourers. They are the people who are the first to be hit under the cardinal virtues expounded and being operated here by the inter-Party Government. If there was to be retrenchment and economy the Government could have gone somewhat higher up the ladder and not start, as they have done, at the lower rung. I want to tell the expert financiers and all the other people who talk so glibly about inflation that my experience is that the small farmers and the workers were always pretty comfortable and pretty well to do in periods of inflation. When we had periods of deflation, they were the sections of the community that were the first to meet the adverse wind.

Deputy O'Higgins said that there is no unemployment in Offaly. He is a young man and does not know much about unemployment or hardship or other difficulties. He is fortunate enough to have been brought up in a family circle——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is rambling very far from the Vote.

Mr. Beegan

With all due respect, I am only replying to what he said.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is rambling very far. He is dragging in inflation and deflation and other things. He had no business to refer to Deputy O'Higgins's bringing up.

Mr. Beegan

I am relating it to the unemployment problem which, in my opinion, is bringing it about.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The general unemployment problem is not under discussion at the moment.

Mr. Beegan

With all due respect, Sir, the relief of unemployment is under discussion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not. I want it to be perfectly clear that the general unemployment question is not under discussion. There is an Estimate on which that matter can be discussed and there is a method by which the question of unemployment could be discussed on this Vote, but there has been no motion to refer the Estimate back, and therefore no question of policy arises. There has been a good deal of latitude allowed.

Mr. Beegan

I bow to your ruling. I wish to say, however, that the £20,000 allocated to the Galway County Council, plus the £6,000 put up by the county council to supplement that, is very inadequate compensation for the £116,000 per year paid to employees of the county council under the turf scheme for the past six years. Rural improvement schemes and minor relief schemes have been held up for a considerable length of time in County Galway. That is not the fault of the Parliamentary Secretary or of his predecessor. I can place the blame, if on anyone, on the Galway county manager. I understand that he intimated to the Department of Local Government and also to the Office of Public Works that he required all his engineering staff for county council work and that, consequently, he would not permit them to undertake the supervision of rural improvements or minor relief schemes.

Mr. Donnellan

That is correct.

Mr. Beegan

When I got a hint of that, I took it up at a meeting of the Galway County Council. I should like to pay tribute to the engineering staff of that county council for the manner in which they carried out these schemes on which they did exceptionally fine work. When I took the matter up with the county manager he said that, with all they had to attend to, the engineering staff could not devote their time to these schemes. As I have stated previously, something else occurred in the meantime. It was notified to the county council and to the county manager that the county council would no longer be responsible for the production or the supervision of the production of hand-won turf. When that came to my notice, I wrote to the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor protesting at any change being made. I pointed out that, as the engineering staff were being relieved of the supervision of the hand-won turf production, they could very easily supervise the rural improvements and the minor relief schemes as heretofore. I am sure my letter is on the files of the Department. I got a reply from the then Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Grady, that the matter was being considered between the Office of Public Works and the Department of Local Government and a subsequent one to say that they could not see their way to agree to my suggestion. As a consequence I understand that the Office of Public Works are organising their own staff. I have no fault to find with that. I am pleased to know that they are opening an office in Galway. In that way, I believe the staff can be very beneficially employed in many ways and that they can get a better knowledge of schemes than they otherwise would have if they were confined to their office in St. Stephen's Green, Dublin. There are many obstacles which they can iron out because of the fact that they have an office there.

We in County Galway are not inclined to be over-anxious to get a big scoop of everything that is going. We like and we intend to put up reasonable proposals to the Board of Works regarding roads of public utility. We are putting up these proposals as a result of a statement which was made by the Parliamentary Secretary. I admit that it was a qualified statement. The scheme was there already. It was there always if we had only gone to the trouble of availing of it. The Parliamentary Secretary knows our difficulty in that respect quite well. Heretofore we put up motions to have certain roads of public utility put into repair and maintained by the county council. The county council was quite willing to put up the money. In recent times, however, we have met with a very definite objection from the county manager and the county surveyor to the effect that unless the road carries a 25-foot width between the fences it cannot be scheduled a county road. The Act of 1925 states—and it was pointed out to me in a reply here by the Parliamentary Secretary—that money can be expended by a local authority on a road 11 feet wide. I want to know when the new regulation was introduced in the Department of Local Government whereby they now insist that unless a road is 25 feet wide they will not sanction its being scheduled as a county road. We know the formalities that have to be gone through in order to have a road scheduled a county road.

When we held a meeting recently to decide on a special meeting for the submission of works of the kind I have mentioned, the county manager stated that he would get in touch with the Minister for Local Government to see if any solution to the problem could be found. A number of the members of the county council held that if a road was 18 feet wide, or even 15 feet wide in some cases, and if it was benefiting a large section of the public, we should be permitted to expend the money, and that, in addition, it should be scheduled as a county road for maintenance later. I was sent a copy of a letter which was sent by the county manager to the Minister for Local Government. I presume I was sent it because I proposed the calling of the special meeting. No doubt a copy was also sent to the Parliamentary Secretary. I should like to know, when the Parliamentary Secretary is replying, if any decision has been reached on that matter yet. It is very important, as far as we are concerned.

The matter of field drainage was mentioned by a number of Deputies. I always believe in giving credit where credit is due and in commending a scheme to the people if I believe it is a good scheme. The best way to commend a scheme is by setting example. I myself am availing of that scheme. I believe it is a very useful scheme. An are which I should like to see revived in this country is the art of field drainage. That art, in the main, has been lost in this country.

Mr. Donnellan

The Deputy does not agree with Deputy Kitt, then, that it is suitable only for landlords?

Mr. Beegan

I suppose it suits landlords, big farmers——

Mr. Donnellan

And small farmers.

Mr. Beegan

——and everybody who is in a position to avail of it. I have only two faults to find with it—not in so far as it applies to myself, because the more elaborate it is the better I like it—but because I believe it is somewhat too elaborate. I know very well it follows the system outlined in the Department of Agriculture. I think, however, that the French type drains, nine yards apart, are a good deal too near. If they were double that distance from each other, in two or three years they would be just as beneficial to the land as they would be if they were nine yards apart.

There are two other things I wish to mention in regard to the scheme. First of all, I consider that £4 per acre is quite reasonable, because I know that it takes perhaps eight times £4 or ten times £4 to carry out the scheme.

Mr. Donnellan

A very good judge.

Mr. Beegan

But there is a number of people—as was mentioned by Deputy Kitt and by other speakers, too —who, because they have to put down that money, do not feel that they are able to do it. There should be a proviso in this scheme similar to that in the rural improvements scheme that they will put down the money. If they are honest people they will get somebody to go guarantor for them. They should, anyhow, be given preference on the work just the same as unemployed people. Those of them who are not able to put up the money should be given equal preference with unemployed people. The people who are able to put up the money would not spend time on work of that kind because they have too much to do otherwise. If they were given that opportunity it would be reasonable enough.

I understand that the scheme is intended to give employment to those who are displaced on the bogs. I should prefer that it would not be enforced in that rigid way. In fact, I think a resolution was sent from our county council in regard to a number of these schemes—both in regard to this one and in regard to the maintenance of rivers and so on—whereby the Department of Local Government and the Board of Works were requested not to adhere rigidly to the engagement of people who are unemployed as a result of the abandonment of the hand-won turf scheme. However, if there is no other way out then by all means adhere to it rigidly. At the moment it is not being adhered to rigidly and because of that some cause for complaint can be found. People other than those who were employed on bogs in 1947 are being employed. I have no fault to find with that to a certain extent but it does seem unfair that two members of the same family should be in employment under this scheme while another family, equally deserving of employment, are ignored. If a member from every family got work there would be no fault to find with the scheme.

Reference was made to the unemployment register. It was said that the register was wrong in principle. I advise the Parliamentary Secretary to adhere to the unemployment register. If he does not do that he will make endless difficulty for himself and create for himself a problem to which he will find no easy solution. Reference was made to the fact that people are too proud to register as unemployed. If they are too proud to register I hold that, when they are out of employment or sick, they should get no benefit. I can see nothing wrong in having to register. I think it is a good thing that the people have that facility. If a man has to register as unemployed that is no reason why he should feel compelled to bow his head in shame. If the work is not available for him then there is an obligation on the State to make provision for him in the same way as the State provides for those who are ill.

Mr. Madden

It is nauseating, after four months of government, to listen to the politics preached here. An important scheme like this should get more attention from the Deputies. A greater effort should be made, especially by the Deputies who represent the rural areas, to bring this scheme to fruition. To-day we had a political diatribe from Deputy Kissane. I would have expected better than that from Deputy Kissane. He told us about the promises that were made; he told us about the unemployment problem we were allegedly supposed to solve with the touch of a magic wand and, by its solution, stem the tide of emigration from the rural areas overnight. Is it not preposterous that valuable time should be wasted like that? The present Government has done much in its short time in office. A definite undertaking was given that if we were elected the taxpayers' money would be handled in a more careful and judicious fashion. We have reduced taxation by £6,000,000. No one except perhaps an inmate of some lunatic asylum, would promise from a public platform to solve immediately the unemployment problem and stem the tide of emigration. But that is the type of debate to which we have to listen here while important economic problems with a direct bearing on the life of our people are ignored.

I say that the rural improvement scheme is a magnificent scheme. If this scheme came about because of the initiative of the Fianna Fáil Administration, then all credit to them for their work. This scheme has been one of the most beneficial in improving the amenities of the rural population. That improvement has in turn brought about an increase in productivity. A greater expedition and a more intensive effort are perhaps called for. More could be done than is being done at present. Some of us receive too many of these blue cards. Possibly the number of applicants is disproportionate to the amount of money available. Possibly the Office of Public Works is not sufficiently well staffed to cope with all the applications. I am sure that if all the staffs of all the Government Departments were turned over on this work, all the applications would still not be covered. The scheme to which this blue card relates that I hold now was recognised over a year ago. There is another scheme in which I am interested myself. We are still waiting. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to expedite these schemes. We certainly can congratulate ourselves on the improvements that have been made in the roads and boreens throughout the country.

I raised this matter in the Seanad on a former occasion and the Minister invited me then to drop into the Board of Works and point out the snags. If a number of persons gather together they can jointly send in their forms, pay their proportion, and in time the scheme will operate. But, take the case of one unfortunate man who has a long, twisty boreen which forms the only approach to his tillage. He has no tractor, no modern machinery of any description. That unfortunate man, with his young family, is stuck in there a quarter of a mile. He has to bring his wheat and oats a long distance to have them threshed. That individual does not come under this scheme. He may come under another scheme initiated by the Department of Agriculture. The rural improvements scheme, where it applies to two or more people, is worked in this way: they pay their contribution of 25 per cent. and after that the work is done by the county council. Where only one man is concerned, he sends the form to the Department and it is he who must do the work. He may not have a family to help him and he is not, perhaps, in an economic position to employ labour. He has to leave his garden or his meadow and concentrate on the other job.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will see his way to take that particular snag out of this excellent scheme and make it a more attractive one for the whole rural community. Look at the advantages. You can increase production and by doing so you reduce the cost of production, and in that way you help to reduce the cost of living. You will change the whole outlook of rural life and make it much more attractive. When I drive out from my own place in the afternoon I can see the lovely avenues and roads which have been constructed under this scheme. It makes all the difference between a life of hardship and a pleasant existence.

I understood one Deputy to say this scheme has been dropped. That feeling is abroad. Within the past month I was asked several times if the rural improvements scheme has been dropped since the inter-Party Government got into power. I said I did not think it was and that I believed the Government were trying to check up on the number of applicants. I understand that 22,000 have already made application. I think this matter ought to get publicity here because that will put at ease the minds of many people in the rural areas who are anxious to take advantage of this excellent scheme. I do not believe it has been dropped; it may have been slowed up owing to the elections and the considerable number of applicants.

There is then this matter of giving grants, not so much for essential reproductive works as to relieve unemployment. I know that you must have a certain number of unemployed in an area before a scheme can be undertaken. I know areas where you could do partial drainage work—incidentally a work of great help to lowlying land, into which run mountain streams—but the incidence of unemployment in such areas does not warrant the doing of such work. Consequently, the farmers in the valleys into which pour the mountain streams are precluded from a scheme because the incidence of unemployment in the area would not warrant it. Employment may be given in an area where, perhaps, there is not such urgency and purely for the sake of keeping men at some work, whereas in areas not far removed you will find very essential work on land running through one, two or more parishes, and yet, because of this qualification, it cannot be undertaken.

These are a few of the points that occur to me. Some of these schemes brought about a new outlook, a cheerful atmosphere and changed rural amenities. I hope my words may intensify the efforts of the Parliamentary Secretary and all others concerned and that there will be a greater and more united effort to encourage and expedite these schemes and, if possible, to reduce the cost. The contribution is a bit high. Some of these people have poor land, low valuations and boggy soil from which they get a meagre existence. When they are asked to contribute £5 or £6 out of a small income, it is very hard on them. If there could be a reduction for such classes of people it would encourage them. By encouraging them and expediting those schemes you will help to stem in some measure the tide of emigration, you will make country life more tolerable, the land more productive and you will be doing valuable work for the whole community.

Captain Cowan

I feel the time has arrived when someone should make a protest about the attendance of Deputies here. Deputies are elected to the Dáil to do a particular work. This is a deliberative Assembly. We are here to hear criticisms and constructive suggestions. What is said in the House ought to have some effect on the decisions that are subsequently taken. In this particular debate to-day the attendance has varied around the quorum of 20 members. That is wrong and there ought to be a much better attendance of Deputies. We are sent here to deliberate and hear the views expressed by one another and it is our duty to arrive at a proper decision. Can we do that when only 20 out of a total membership of 147 attend to hear the debate?

There is not one Minister in the House at the moment and there is not one Front Bench member of the Opposition Party here at the moment, either. I make this protest deliberately because this parliamentary institution will fall into disrepute if the members of the Dáil do not treat it with respect. Early this evening I drew attention to the fact that there was no quorum in the House. Not so very long ago I again counted the members and there was no quorum. I realise that about this time, between five and six o'clock, Deputies go to their tea. Perhaps it is a matter that might be referred to the proper committee, with the suggestion that there should be an adjournment for three-quarters of an hour so that we might all have tea together.

A Deputy

There is not sufficient room for that.

Captain Cowan

That is a matter to be considered, but if we are going to have our tea during a period running from three o'clock in the afternoon until 10.30 at night, I think it is unfair and improper.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy might now come to the Estimate.

Captain Cowan

I have said all that is necessary on that matter.

A Deputy

It is of no importance.

Captain Cowan

I think it is of importance and I felt it necessary to refer to it this evening now that I am free to do so. There is only one matter on which I wish to refer on this Vote. I agree with the compliments that have been paid to the Parliamentary Secretary and I wish him well in the task he has to perform. The matter to which I wish to direct attention has also been the subject of correspondence between me and the Parliamentary Secretary and a question was asked in reference to it by Deputy Childers. I refer to the Breensfort river near Athlone. A fortnight ago I was asked by the local people——

An Ceann Comhairle

Does this matter not arise under Vote 10?

Captain Cowan

I think it arises on this Vote. I am sorry if it is not on this Vote, because I understood it was being dealt with under one of these schemes.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. Under Vote 10—Public Works.

Mr. Donnellan

I am sorry; it is being dealt with by us under this Vote.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy, then, is quite in order.

Captain Cowan

I am glad to know that because I should be sorry to slip up on that point. I went down there and I was accompanied by a number of local people who are very badly affected by the conditions. They are all anxious that the scheme should be carried out. Unfortunately, there is one nigger in the woodpile—an old lady over 80 years of age, the owner of a mill. This lady will not consent to joining in the scheme and she has held up the whole work. The result is that there are some thousands of acres under water. Her reason for not joining in the scheme is that it will affect the millrace. There is a mill there; I saw it, but there is no roof on the mill and there is no machinery in it. The mill has not worked for 60 years. In fact, not in the recollection of the oldest man to whom I spoke, has that mill been used as a mill. Nevertheless, hundreds of farmers and thousands of acres are being affected because that lady says she will not consent to the scheme. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary, when he is replying, to let me know what difficulties are in the way of this work being carried out. The Parliamentary Secretary says he cannot do it because she will not join him. What I want the Parliamentary Secretary to do is to indicate to me what is the statutory difficulty that is in his way. I shall not advocate legislation, as I am not entitled to do so on this Vote, but if he indicates to me the statutory difficulty that is in his way——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid if the old lady says "no," that is an end to it.

Captain Cowan

I am afraid that is the difficulty.

Mr. Connolly

Acquire the mill.

Captain Cowan

You cannot acquire the mill. She must have statutory protection, and if the Parliamentary Secretary will be so good as to indicate to me what it is I shall certainly have the matter looked up to see if it will be possible to have a Bill introduced, even a Private Member's Bill, that will give to that very big area near Athlone the drainage which the people there badly need.

A question was asked in this House recently with regard to the workers disemployed here in Dublin, workers who had been engaged on the turf schemes, and the Parliamentary Secretary indicated that there were difficulties in the way of provision of employment by him. I want the Parliamentary Secretary to indicate in his reply whether he has been able to overcome, or can overcome within a reasonable period, these difficulties, or whether he can provide employment for those people in the City of Dublin.

This debate has proceeded on the lines—so far as Deputy Childers was concerned it went that way anyhow— of a debate on the provision of employment in a general way. I take it that is not correct. I take it that these criticisms that Deputy Childers made about the Clann na Poblachta Party and Clann na Talmhan Party were not, in fact, in order in this debate. Consequently I cannot take this opportunity to reply to criticism that was as unfounded as it was unfair. However, I shall get an opportunity of dealing with it on another occasion.

Mr. M. Sheridan

There are a few aspects of this Vote which I should like to bring to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary. The first point has reference to small drainage schemes. I think it must be evident to the engineers of the Board of Works or the Office of Public Works that these small drainage schemes cannot be carried out during the winter. It has always been a puzzle to me why these schemes are not carried out to a greater extent during the summer months. Surely, it must be evident to engineers that there is a need for these schemes. Surely it must be within the competence of the engineers of the Board of Works to devise a scheme for having these small drainage schemes carried out during the summer months.

It can be advanced that it will be difficult to get the necessary labour. I do not agree with that. In the rural areas there will always be sufficient labour to carry out these works, and the advantages, particularly in the case of these small drainage schemes, would be great. I can be told that the big thing is to get the major drainage scheme carried out first. I agree that is very important, but, until the major drainage scheme comes into operation and until it is possible to see the advantages which may accrue, as they are bound to accrue, from that scheme, it is very desirable that these small schemes should be carried out to a greater extent and, if possible, during the summer months.

With regard to the rural improvements scheme, a contribution of 25 per cent. is expected from those who will benefit by such a scheme. I should like to add my voice to those of other Deputies who have spoken on this matter and to say that I think that contribution too high. Most of the small farmers are not in a position financially to make that 25 per cent. contribution, and I should be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary and the Board of Works could see their way to reduce it.

Deputy O'Higgins spoke about unemployment and said there was no unemployment in his constituency. I can tell the Parliamentary Secretary that I pass through a small town in my constituency every week and I see there some hundreds of men lining up on that day to register at the Garda barracks. Surely, if there was no unemployment, there would be no necessity for these men to register as unemployed.

Mr. Donnellan

Do they live very far away from where we are draining the Brosna?

Mr. Sheridan

Yes.

Mr. Donnellan

How many miles?

Mr. Sheridan

At least 80 miles. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to let me know if he will see what can be done about the two matters I mention and also about the unemployment matter. I think that the ideas of Deputy O'Higgins are a little fallacious in that regard, because there is unemployment in certain areas.

Captain Giles

I agree with the last Deputy who spoke with regard to small drainage schemes. These should be started in the summer, and not the winter months, and many of these schemes which would give a fair amount of employment should be tackled immediately. There is no need to wait for the big drainage scheme. I am satisfied that this debate has been of a very low calibre, in which a very poor spirit has been displayed. The Opposition did not play their cards well at all. There was too much of the cringing and crawling spirit and it is no wonder that the people are always looking for State assistance. There is never any effort made to raise these debates above that level or to get the people to fend for themselves. I always regarded this nation as a brave little country in which every man would try to get on as best he could, but, judging by what Deputies, and chiefly those Deputies from western counties, said, everybody is depending on the State for a living. If that is the position, it is not worth bothering about the country at all.

With regard to unemployment, I am satisfied that there is very little unemployment in my county and I say to Deputies from the West that, if they have plenty of men in the West, they should send them to Royal Meath where they will get good work at good wages. They used to come in the past and I hope they will come in the future, because there is plenty of work for them there and the farmers will pay them a living wage. There is not so great a problem of unemployment as would seem to exist from the speeches of some Deputies.

We hear about the abandonment of the turf scheme. Why would we not abandon it? There was no use in robbing the State. What return were we getting? Look at what is up in the Park—a heap of junk. Do Deputies want more of that? I do not. There are plenty of bogs in the country, and if people want to work on them, let them work on them. There is plenty of room for private enterprise, and if there are any men unemployed, it is their own fault. They can walk in on a bog, cut their turf, spread it and dry it, and sell it. There is a market for it and let them avail of it. There is no use in their always depending on the State. There is no group of men who cannot go into a bog in Meath, Westmeath or Kildare and earn good money. The market is there for the turf, and in the area I come from there is not a farmer who will not buy ten or 15 horseloads of turf from any of these people. It is a good job for all of us that the State did close down on the turf scheme so that people might fend for themselves.

There is much good work which the Parliamentary Secretary could do in connection with the draining of these bogs. Many of the bogs were not drained properly and they should be attended to at an early date. Such work will give a great deal of employment, and if there is such a thing as unemployment in these counties, the drainage of these bogs would be of immense benefit. It is my belief that there will always be unemployed, even at the best of times. There are two types of unemployed—those who do not want to work and those who do. There is a vast number of men who are work-shy and who do not want to work at manual labour. They want to get into some State job, because it is always easier than working for a farmer. There are many farmers looking for men and unable to get them, while in the locality are idle hefty men who will not work for them. There is plenty of agricultural work in the country— plenty of work on rural schemes of all types, if the people will work on them, but if there is any sort of State scheme being undertaken you have hundreds and hundreds of men pedalling eight and ten miles to get a job on it, while if a farmer asks them to go out and clean a drain on his land, they will not do it. It is time Fianna Fáil came to realise their responsibility——

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Talk to your left.

Captain Giles

——and raised our people up instead of knocking them down. I am satisfied that our labour exchanges where these men are registering ought to receive a tightening up. There are many men unemployed at present who are genuinely looking for work, but I also know that there are many men registering who are working at the same time. I know that there is collusion——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary is responsible in that matter.

Captain Giles

I thought it would arise on this Vote, because men are registering for unemployment benefit who are employed. Rural improvements schemes are of immense benefit, and there are some schemes I should like to see concentrated on more than others, for instance, in connection with Land Commission roads. A number of these roads in my county were in a fairly good state of repair eight or ten years ago, when the Land Commission finished their work, but the county council refuses to take them over because they are not now in good repair and a rural improvement scheme should be carried out in relation to these roads so that the county council could take them over. So far as my county is concerned, the county council is willing to take them over the moment they are put into a state of repair, but no council could be expected to take them over in their present condition.

The Land Commission say their job is finished. We should concentrate on putting these roads in proper condition under a rural improvement scheme. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take note of that. There are some lanes where such a scheme could be carried out but the 25 per cent. contribution is too high and many of the farmers who live along these lanes are not in a position to pay the contribution. Where such lanes are in bad condition a rural improvement scheme should be carried out at State expense. There are not many but there are some. The Parliamentary Secretary has his hands full. If there will be a busy man in this House it will be he. There will be endless schemes and endless trouble in working out the schemes.

Mr. Gorry

At the outset it would be proper for me to pay a tribute to the Office of Public Works, particularly that section which, in recent years, has done such excellent work and has supervised such excellent work all over the country. Speaking for my own constituency, I am satisfied that the work that has been done under the auspices of the special branch dealing with unemployment, under this particular Vote, has been excellent. I shall not discuss the merits of the small criticisms that have been flung across the House about wasteful expenditure. In any scheme there may be some misfit and things may go a little wrong, When one is dealing with registered unemployed, it must be borne in mind that one man on the register may not be able to give as good a return as another. A fair percentage of those that are called out from the unemployment register to carry out minor employment schemes, particularly in inclement weather from autumn to spring, are not able to give a full return as compared with able-bodied young men who may be on the same gang. Consequently, we cannot expect the same return for the same amount of money as if the Parliamentary Secretary or his officials or the ganger had the option to select, say, ten able-bodied men as against ten men in middle life or older men or men who, for one reason or another, were not competent to give a return. We would be devoting our time much more satisfactorily if we tried to examine the schemes that have been put forward in recent years and that have been supervised so well by the Board of Works from the point of view of seeing how we could improve them.

The farm improvements scheme has relieved a great deal of unemployment all over the country at periods of the year when work was slack and it has enabled necessary work to be carried out on farms that could not have been carried out by the farmer. I dislike very much, and as a farmer I recent it, to hear people saying that the Fianna Fáil Government doled out money and lowered the dignity of the farmer. Will anyone tell me where farmers with slight working capital could find the money nowadays, as contrasted with 30 to 40 years ago, when wages were a different problem, to employ labour at £3 a week for the purpose of carrying out certain necessary drainage work on the land if the State did not come in through the farms improvements scheme and the rural improvements scheme to subsidise the work? Certainly the income from the particular farms could not carry it.

Take a small farm of 30 to 40 acres. There may be two or three able-bodied sons. The farmer may be an able-bodied man. The womenfolk are doing their part, milking and looking after the fowl. The total income of that farm would not be sufficient to allow £30 or £40 to be set aside for necessary work. The State was perfectly justified in coming in to finance the farm improvements scheme, and anyone who wants to be honest and to speak the truth must admit that all over the country these schemes have been very beneficial and have transformed the countryside.

We are either hypocrites when we deplore the flight from the land or we are sincere, and if we are sincere we will be glad that some of the amenities enjoyed by people in the town should be brought to the rural community. There are many self-contained units in the rural countryside, away from towns, and the farmers concerned are as perfectly entitled to get money to improve the conditions around the farmstead to make it more tolerable during the winter period when there is a great deal of slush and mud about as are the people in the towns to get drainage and sewerage schemes and cement walks. I do not grudge the townspeople their amenities, because they have their difficulties too and we are glad to see the towns and cities brightened up, but there should be more give and take and people who are not in a position to criticise rural Ireland might remain silent on the matter or else spend some time in judging the situation fairly.

I am very glad that the farm improvement scheme was advertised again last week. Time has been lost in recent months because the scheme was not advertised last February or March, for this reason, that this year during the month of June, for instance, there were permanent workers on farms who could have been usefully employed if work had been certified and sanctioned. They were entitled to get any benefits that would have accrued.

There is just one criticism I have to offer. I do think the Parliamentary Secretary would be well advised to put it to the Government that the time stipulated for the receipt of applications, which is to end on the 19th July, should be extended because there are several farmers who do not get either weekly or daily papers and who will not have seen the advertisement, and who, therefore, will be caught out and will not be able to benefit until after March, 1949.

On the question of the rural improvements scheme, I join with many Deputies in suggesting that in many cases the 25 per cent. contribution is too high and is a deterrent to having certain useful works carried out. There should be more elasticity in the scheme. More discretion should be left to the Board of Works. In connection with, say, bog road schemes, where a number of people join together, I know they can increase the grant, but in general 25 per cent. is too heavy on the number of people. I know of cases where the amount of work to be done and provided for in the Estimate is costing too much and is too heavy on the few people there. I have heard that it would be a good thing if a county council, when striking an estimate for the year, arranged that a certain amount of money definitely be collected to subsidise these particular rural schemes; so that, if there were 5 or 10 per cent. from the county council and 15 per cent. from the local people benefiting, in that way you could make several schemes attractive and they would go through.

The Brosna scheme is a big one and I am delighted that it has started this year in my constituency, in Offaly. Some of the speakers here are speaking in an unreasonable way when they expect even idle bog workers to travel 30 or 40 miles away from their homes and try to get suitable lodgings near a scheme. They have to provide for their families at home. The wages would not enable them to live away from home, provide for their families and have a reasonable amount for pocket money. It would be necessary to provide hostels or lodgings in the area, in order to get a sufficient number of men. After the harvest, a certain number of men employed with farmers will be available for a temporary period. On a big scheme like that, we would like to see greater progress. I would like to see the Parliamentary Secretary getting his 500 men, just as in recent years we have had to bring in hundreds of men to Leix-Offaly, which has been referred to by my colleague Deputy O'Higgins as being the home of the turf industry.

He made one mistake in referring to unemployment there. He said there was no unemployment there. I do not agree with him in that, as there definitely are men unemployed in various parts of our constituency, because of the discontinuance of the turf scheme. There has been a certain amount of mishandling of the whole turf situation. I am more concerned with the family turf cutters, the people who get a very important part of their income from the bogs. I would put it to the city people, that all their assertions about the type of turf delivered here are not well-founded. I would like the turf industry to be continued as a rural employment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary is responsible for all the turf schemes.

Mr. Gorry

I do not suggest that he is, but they have been referred to very often here. I agree that I am slightly out of order, but I do not think I have gone too far.

Mr. Donnellan

Thanks to the Ceann Comhairle. Some Deputies went much further.

Mr. Gorry

Take the Croghan Rhode district of Offaly. There are idle men living on holdings of four or five acres, but for the last seven or eight years they have been working on the bogs. These men would not leave the district and could not leave, as they are married men with families, to go over to Ferbane side to work on the present scheme, under the existing conditions there. The conditions of employment will have to be brightened before you get men to migrate 20 or 30 miles. As has been suggested by Bord na Móna, if you can provide week-end transport, to bring idle men from one district to another, getting a group of men together on a Monday morning and getting them back the following week-end, that might be feasible. I definitely disagree with Deputy O'Higgins, as he emphasised this question too much. I am glad to say that we have not a very big unemployment problem to deal with in the constituency. In the bog case, there were as many men from the West of Ireland who got work in the constituency, particularly in Offaly, as native men were employed. At the present time in Clonsast I suppose it is a 50-50 basis or more to outside men who are working there, and they were all quite welcome to work there as Irishmen.

Splendid work has been done under the minor improvements scheme in the last 10 years. In the area I am familiar with, some of these valuable works are falling back into disrepair. I suggest that, when inspectors are in a district looking up recent applications, it might be no harm for them to look at a nearby scheme and see its present condition and see if it should be earmarked as a suitable scheme for the future. If a minor scheme were put through some years ago and the work is falling into disrepair, it should be tackled. I would be perfectly happy to urge upon the people that they should give some local contribution towards that. We must keep our bog drains and roads in good condition. Once a bog drain goes into disrepair, it gets into very bad condition in a couple of years, so it needs regular attention. The bog roads should be kept in good condition also. I hope that the schemes that have been sent in in recent years will be started. There will be many more suggestions from time to time to the Parliamentary Secretary and, through him, to his officers, as to ways and means of improving these valuable schemes—the rural improvements scheme, the farm improvements scheme, the farm buildings scheme when it comes in, and the minor schemes such as we have.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Tá cúpla rud agamsa le rá ar an Meastachán seo agus sílim gur féidir liom mo chuid cainte a dhéanamh i nGaeilge agus go dtuigfear mé. Mar gheall ar na Mion-Scéimeanna Fostaíochta, labhras anseo cheana mar gheall ar an rud céanna cúpla bliain ó shoin agus tá an gearán céanna agam fós—go dtosnaítear ar chuid de na scéimeanna sin in áiteanna agus ná cuirtear críoch cheart leo. Aon uair a tosnaítear ar Mhion-Scéim Fostaíochta ba cheart an obair a tógtar idir lámha a chríochnú sar a dtosnaítear ar aon obair eile den tsórt céanna sa cheantar céanna. Ba chóir don Rúnaí Parlaiminte féachaint chuige sin feasta. Is eol domhsa gur tosnaíodh ar bhóithríní a dheasú in áiteanna áirithe in Iarthar Luimnighe agus nar cuireadh críoch leis an obair. Má tosnaítear ar bhóthar a dheasú, ba cheart leanúint de go dtí go mbeidh sé ina bhóthar ceart.

An chéad phointe eile agam baineann sé leis an Scéim Feabhsúcháin Tuaithe —scéim atá ar siúl le roinnt bhliain anuas agus a bhfuil an-chuid maitheasa ar fad déanta aige. Tá moill áirithe ag baint le gach aon scéim den tsórt sin. Ní thuigim fáth na moille uaireannta. Is dócha ná fuil oifigigh go leor nó innealltóirí go leor ag Oifig na nObreach bPoiblí chun cigireachta a dhéanamh ar na hiarrataisí, agus caithfear fanacht ró-fhada sar a ndéanfar aon sgrúdú orthu. Seo ceann de na scéimeanna is fearr a ceapadh fós do mhuintir na tuaithe. Na scéimeanna eile—na Mion-Scéimeanna—bhíodar go maith do na ceantracha d'fhéadfadh tairbhe a bhaint astu, ach ní hé gach aon cheantar sa tír d'fhéadfhadh an tairbhe a bhaint as na Mion-Scéimeanna sin.

Is mar gheall air sin a cuireadh an scéim eile ar siúl, an Scéim Feabhsúcháin Tuaithe. Tá buíochas mhuintir na tuaithe tuillte go dilis ag an bhfhear a cheap na scéimeanna sin, an Teachta Padraig Mac Gabhann nuair a bhí se san áit a bhfhuil an Rúnaí Párlaiminte anois. Cuimhneofar ar ainm an Teachta sin go ceann abhfhad i measc mhuintir na tuaithe mar gheall ar an maitheas agus an leas a rinne na scéimeanna sin do mhuintir an tuaithe agus don tír ar fad. Déantar obair níos fearr ar na scéimeanna sin ná ar na Mion-Scéimeanna agus mar sin ba mhaith liom go mor go ndeánfai na hiarrataisí a scrúdú níos tapúla ná mar a déantar, ná fágfaí na daoine ag feitheamh ró-fhada. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil a lán scéimeanna i gCondae Luimnighe. Ghlac Conntae Luimnighe leis an Scéim Feabhsúcháin Tuaithe ó thosach, agus bhí na daoine ar theastaigh uathu tairbhe a bhaint as, sasta an deontas áitiúil a dhíol go fial. Is beag duine a bhí doicheallach an deóntas a dhíol nuair a thuig siad gurbh é a leas féin teacht isteach sa Scéim comh maith le na gcomharsan. Dá bhrígh sin, ba mhaith liom go mór go ndéanfaí iarracht ládir chun deire a chur leis an moill a bhaineann le scrúdú na n-iarrataisí agus tosnú ar an obair.

Dá bhféadfhad an Rúnaí Parlaiminte é sin a dhéanamh, bheadh cuid mhór déanta aige. Nuair a thosaigh an scéim ar dtús, ní raibh na daoine ró-thoilteanach páirt a bheith acu leis, mar nár thuigeadar chomh maith is bhí sé, ach nuair a fuair na daoine amach chomh luachmhar is bhí an scéim tháinig na hiarrataisí isteach ina mílte; tá na mílte iarrataisí ann agus beidh na mílte iarrataisí eile ann. Tá súil agam ná fuil aon chuid le baint den scéim seo mar a rinneadh le scéimeanna eile, go dtí go mbeidh gach aon bóithrín agus gach aon phasáiste ar fúd na tíre curtha i gcóir agus i gceart, go mór mhór áiteacha ina bhfuil bóithríní fada le taistil le dul isteach sna tithe. Go dtí sin caithfear leannacht den scéim seo. Tá súil agam go mbeid airgead le fáil tríd an meastachán seo gach uile bhliain go dtí go mbeidh na bóithríní seo deisighthe agus go mbeidh bóthar ceart ag gach aon fheirmeoir agus go mbeidh na tairbhí céanna acu atá ag muintir na mbailte agus ag na daoine sin atá ina gcónaí taobh leis an mbóthar mór.

Ba mhaith liom focal a rá mar gheall ar na Mion-Scéimeanna Siltin, agus táim ar aon aigne leis an Teachta Mícheál O Síoradáin as Contae an Chábháin sa mhéid a dúirt se mar gheall ar na Mion-Scéimeanna sin. Tá fhios agam go bhfhuil deacrachtaí ag baint le cuid aca.

Má bhíonn abha bheag ann ag rith isteach in abhainn mhóir a bhfuil beartaithe ag Bord na nOibreacha Poiblí obair siltin a chur ar siúl ann, ní féidir an abha bheag a dhéanamh faoin scéim seo. Tá cuid mhór mion-scéimeanna siltin ar cheart tabhairt fúthú sa tsamhradh mar nach féidir iad a dhéanamh sa ngeimhreadh. Ní ceart iarraidh ar aon fhear oibre dul isteach i nabhainn chun obair siltin a dhéanamh i lár an gheimhridh. Ba cheart go ndéanfaí sa tsamhradh é.

Tá súil agam go n-eireoidh go maith leis an Rúnaí Parlaiminte san obair atá idir lámba aige. Tá a lán déanta cheana féin, tá mhór-chuid oibre deanta ag Bord na nOibreacha Poiblí do mhuintir na tuaithe le cúig bliana déag anuas agus a lán tairbhe fachta as. Má leanann an Rúnaí Parlaiminte ar an mbóthar atá leagtha amach dó cheana, ní bheidh sé ag dul amú. Tá súil agam go leanfaidh sé ar an mbóthar sin, agus go n-eireoidh nios fearr leis— más féidir san—ná leo siúd a tháinig roimhe sa phost sin.

Mr. Donnellan

First I want to say to the House that I very much appreciate the suggestions that have been thrown out by many Deputies here and that I am very grateful to every Deputy who contributed to the debate, because in the office where I am at the moment it is always well that we, the staff and myself, should have suggestions and know what the people in rural Ireland and the people representing rural constituencies think. As far as I am concerned, as has been stated by many Deputies, it is not very necessary to impress the great necessity for all these schemes on me, because for the few months I have been there the breath of rural Ireland has not left my lungs and no matter what length of time I may be there I assure you that it never will. In dealing with these schemes I must congratulate one Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party, that is Deputy Dan O'Rourke. When Deputy Dan O'Rourke said: "Why blame the Parliamentary Secretary for this Estimate; it is not his, it is our own," Deputy Dan O'Rourke replied to all criticism to this Estimate. It is not my Estimate. His advice to me was: "It may be necessary for the Parliamentary Secretary to bring in a Supplementary Estimate." It may be, and it may not, but my own answer to unemployment is that the unemployment situation will be kept under observation during the winter months and if it is found necessary to extend the schemes and to provide more work money will be found for such. That is the answer to it. It certainly is regrettable—I regret it to a certain extent—that Deputies found it necessary, for political purposes, to use the unemployed.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

You never said at yourself.

Mr. Donnellan

I think this is the third day that my Estimates have been before the House and, beyond giving a word of advice, I do not think that I once interrupted any Deputy. I would appeal to Deputy Ó Briain to do the same.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Maith go leor.

Mr. Donnellan

I regret that such a thing should have been done. We always had unemployed in the country and I am afraid we always will, but I can assure Deputies that, as far as we in this Government are concerned, there will be less unemployed each succeeding year. I hope we shall live to see the day when there will be none. That is the policy of this Government. One can understand that Deputies who have not long been members of the House should mix up the Vote for the Office of Public Works and the Vote for the Special Employment Schemes Office. Votes 9 and 10, which relate to drainage, public buildings, etc., come under the Office of the Board of Works, while Vote 11 is for the Special Employment Schemes Office.

Under Vote 11, the Special Employment Schemes Office is responsible for minor employment schemes in the country—schemes to relieve unemployment. There is no use in a Deputy belonging to any Party saying that those schemes should be carried out here, there or in any other place. They will be carried out where there are registered unemployed. Neither is there any use in a Deputy saying that such schemes are more necessary than others. We take up the schemes which are considered most necessary by our engineers in the areas where there are registered unemployed.

Let me point out to Deputies that money is expended on those schemes in order to give work to the registered unemployed in a particular area. Why then do Deputies say that there are unemployed but that they do not register? If they do not, it is their own funeral. It is only when people register that we can know that there are unemployed in an area. If they fail to register we cannot recognise them as such, and we can not give any works in their area to relieve unemployed there. Deputy Kissane realises that there are Deputies who know that.

Therefore, what I have said is a reply to nearly every Deputy who spoke on this Estimate. If the unemployed do not register then they are not unemployed as far as we are concerned. Some people say they are too proud to do it. If they are we cannot help that. These are the regulations. I found them there when I went into the Employment Schemes Office. The director and staff there must live up to those regulations which were made by the previous Government. They were not made by us. While on that subject, I should like to avail of this opportunity to pay a tribute to the director and staff of the Employment Schemes Office for the co-operation I have got from them since I went there as well as for the manner in which, both now and always, in my opinion, they have been willing to work for the unemployed as far as the minor employment schemes are concerned. If a Deputy in any area wants to help, the one thing he must do is to get the people there to register as being unemployed. I appeal to Deputies, if they have unemployed in their area, to do that, whether it be in Laoighis-Offaly or elsewhere. I was surprised to hear Deputy Boland from that constituency say that, on coming up here during the week, he saw people lined up outside the labour exchanges.

Mr. Gorry

I think it was Deputy Sheridan who made that statement.

Mr. Donnellan

I am sorry, but the statement was made that the Deputy saw people lined up outside the labour exchanges. In that area we have a scheme in operation for the past six weeks. On the day we started we wanted 500 workers but up to date we have got only 100. We have sought, in the labour exchanges within 40 miles of the area, to get men to work on that scheme.

Secondly, we have the bog development scheme, to which several references were made during the debate. That is a scheme that is carried out with a full-cost grant in an area from which an application comes to us. If our engineer goes into the area and certifies that, by a road being made into the bog there, it will mean more turf production, or that, by the repair of a road, turf which for many years had to be left in the bog during the winter months, can now be taken out, and that more people can go into the bog and increase turf production, we give a full-cost grant for that bog development scheme. We do that simply because the making of the new road or the repair of a road is going to lead to greater turf production in that bog. It sometimes happens, of course, that one of these roads also leads to a village or gives accommodation to people in the village. If, however, a road is provided it is due to this, that at the end of the village there is a bog on it. The road is not made simply to lead to the village, but rather for the development of the bog.

Then we have the rural improvements scheme where the State contributes 75 per cent. of the cost. The people in the area are asked to make a contribution of 25 per cent. I think it was Deputy Ó Briain who said he was convinced that of all the schemes ever brought forward this one will live in the memory as being due to Deputy Smith when he was Parliamentary Secretary—that he was responsible for it. In view of that, was it not very remarkable to find several Fianna Fáil Deputies saying, in the course of this debate, that the 25 per cent. contribution was too much. It may be too much or it may not, but that is what is laid down in the regulations that we must carry out. In fact, there is more in it than the regulations. In some cases where we find that the road is a public utility we can give a higher contribution than 75 per cent. We have given from 80 to 85 per cent. in cases where it has been proved that a road is a public utility. In other cases we can give a full cost grant. I shall refer to these later. These are the cases in which Deputy Corry is very interested.

Then we have the farm improvements scheme. Deputies are aware that under it we pay 50 per cent. of the cost of labour. In addition, we have the much discussed new field drainage scheme under which people are asked for £4 per acre of a contribution. I would like to deal with these schemes and to defend them because they can be defended. What I want to point out to the House is that, while we allocate the money for them from our Vote, they are dealt with by the Department of Agriculture. If any Deputy wants to raise any question about them he is quite welcome to do so, and I am sure the Minister for Agriculture, in his own capable way, will answer him.

However, I must deal for one moment with the field drainage scheme. Judging from the debate on this Estimate, the Fianna Fáil Party has developed into a real splinter Party. You find Deputy Smith condemning the field drainage scheme and saying that it was ridiculous to expect people to pay £4 per acre. You find Deputy Beegan of the same Party saying that it is a great scheme. I congratulate him because he has been a shining example of having taken advantage of that scheme. They tell you that £4 per acre is too much to expect. In some cases it costs us £20 per acre and even £30 and £40 per acre to leave a man with an acre of land as dry as it is possible to make it. Conacre may cost small farmers £10 per acre. For £4 we leave them an acre of land so dry that they can till and sow and reap and mow it. Then we had Deputy Kitt, representing the same constituency as Deputy Beegan, saying that this scheme is only for landlords. It is a wonder he did not consult Deputy Beegan and find out if Deputy Beegan is one of the landlord class or not. Of course he did not.

I regret that politics should enter into the discussion on this matter. In my opinion, some of these Deputies have not the interest of the schemes at heart, but only how they can score political points. Statements have been made to score political points. Some of the Fianna Fáil Party condemned the scheme and some of the supporters of the inter-Party Government condemned it. Some of the Fiann Fáil Party blessed it and some of the supporters of the inter-Party Government blessed it. It is a fact that in some places we are establishing our own offices to do our work. We are doing so because we have got to do so. I think it was Deputy Killilea who raised the point first and I think Deputy McQuillan agreed with him that the work should be left as it was in the past to the county surveyors and the county engineers in the counties who have always carried it out. So far as I am concerned, and speaking on behalf of the Office of Public Works, I am grateful to the county engineers and their staffs throughout the country who carried out our schemes in the past. They did it as best they could. At the moment, however, in some counties, including Deputy Killilea's county and Deputy McQuillan's county, the county managers have notified us that they can no longer continue to carry out these schemes.

Mr. McQuillan

On a point of order. What I meant to convey in my speech —whether or not I conveyed it to the Parliamentary Secretary I do not know —was that the selection of men for the carrying out of these rural improvements schemes need not be through the labour exchanges, but that the most suitable men should be picked for the jobs and that that should be in the hands of the county engineers while the schemes are administered by them. I have no objection to their being administered completely in the way proposed under the new scheme.

Mr. Donnellan

I accept that. Several Deputies objected, however. Deputy Beegan admitted that he knew during the period of office of the last Administration that it was going to happen in his own County of Galway. Deputy Beegan is a good member of a local authority and without doubt he knew that. Yet Deputy Killilea and Deputy Kitt charged me with taking over the work in the County of Galway and other counties and causing extra expenditure. According to Fianna Fáil, this Government used the axe in every shape and form, are putting people out of work, and doing everything wrong. Yet I am accused of causing extra expenditure by setting up these offices. We are setting them up because the county engineers who had previously carried out the schemes have notified us that they cannot continue to do so any longer. So far as this Government are concerned, their policy is that, if extra expenditure is needed, then it will be expended when it is efficiently expended, and where economy is necessary and can be effected without causing any hardship to the people of the country, then we will have economy.

I should like to ask Deputy Kitt and Deputy Killilea do they want me not to carry out any rural improvements scheme in Galway this year? Do they want me not to carry out any minor relief scheme in Galway this year? Do they want me not to carry out any bog development scheme in Galway this year? I cannot do it if they are in a position to prevent me from establishing an office there and taking over the work in that county, as I have got to take it over in Roscommon, Clare and Tipperary South, because the officers there say they cannot carry out the work. Other Deputies wished me to take over other counties. We cannot do that at the moment, because it would mean a complete reorganisation and the recruitment of a huge staff. But, in the counties where they cannot do our work, we will take them over as quickly as possible and, when the time comes, if we can see our way to do it, we will take over the others.

Deputy Killilea made a further statement. In the Official Report for 1st July, column 2080, he is reported as stating:—

"We understand that a new Department is to be established for the carrying out of minor employment schemes. I do not think that it is necessary or essential at this particular time. I know that a statement was made some time ago that county surveyors were already over-burdened with the work they had on hands and that they were not in a position to handle this particular type of work. That statement was made at a time when the peat industry was in full swing and before the county councils had handed over to Bord na Móna. Now the position has changed completely. So far as the Galway County Council is concerned, we are in the position that we have a number of young engineers who are employed in a temporary capacity and who are all under six months' notice, which is due to expire, I think, on the 1st July, and that is to-day. Unless some further work is made available by the county council for them their employment will cease to exist. The county surveyor is not over-burdened with work at this particular time, and the Parliamentary Secretary would be well advised to discuss with the county council engineering staffs and the county managers the question of whether or not they would be in a position to handle any of the extra schemes that would be coming down from the Department. In that way, we would have no duplication of staffs and money would not be wasted."

You are wasting it now, you know. This morning I got into touch with Mr. Lee, the Galway County Surveyor, and asked him about these engineers that he was going to lay off, thinking that there may have been something in what an irresponsible Deputy said. What what his reply? "No such thing. Actually," he said, "I am looking for more engineers because I require them to carry out the surveying of the roads in Galway." That applies to Galway and to every county under the jurisdiction of Dáil Éireann, no matter what Deputies may try to point out. I suppose it is necessary to use propaganda at any cost. It was also stated by Deputy Killilea—I am sure the House will excuse me if I defend myself—that I took a file down to Galway and used it on a public platform. Deputy Kissane said that when that statement was made I did not reply to it and I did not deny it. I do not like to interrupt. I did not do any such thing. If I made any reference to anything down in Galway it was to Fianna Fáil policy, because no man knew the technique of Fianna Fáil policy better than I did. I was a member of that organisation until I found out how rotten it was.

Mr. O'Rourke

You what?

Mr. Donnellan

I am speaking, Sir——

Mr. O'Rourke

You are indeed. This Parliamentary Secretary says——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy O'Rourke will sit down.

Mr. O'Rourke

I will, and I will stand up, too. We are not going to put up with that kind of stuff.

Mr. Donnellan

What I wanted to point out in Galway and what I want to point out in Dáil Éireann is that it was their policy to promise people that they were going to do things for them without any intention of ever carrying them out. When I was only three months in Dáil Éireann Deputy Killilea said to me: "You are an awfully foolish man to be running down to the Custom House or over to the Board of Works about roads and drainage. Do what I have done. It has kept me in Dáil Éireann for 18 years. Do not do anything for them but keep promising them. They will always keep after you. If you do anything for them they will turn away from you." That may be the policy of Fianna Fáil but that is not the policy of the present Administration.

A Deputy

It looks like it.

Mr. O'Rourke

God help the country.

Mr. Donnellan

I am sure Deputies of Dáil Éireann, including Deputy O'Rourke, will forgive me if I have to pursue blackguardism of that kind——

Mr. O'Rourke

Nobody wants you to do it. You know that. It is disgraceful.

Mr. Donnellan

Another thing for which I am held up is the fact that 400 people were unemployed on account of the closing down of hand-won turf in the Dublin City area. Deputy Byrne, Deputy Cowan, Deputy P.J. Burke and several other Deputies referred to the matter. Of course, that hare was raised some three weeks ago by Deputy Lemass in the Dáil. He put a question down asking me if I was aware that those people were going to lose their work in the Phoenix Park and other places owing to the closing down of the hand-won turf schemes and if I was going to provide alternative work for them on certain schemes. I can assure the House, if it is necessary for me so to do, that no man in this House has as much sympathy for unemployed men as I have. I realise what it is. I wanted to leave it over for a week to see what I could do. I went straight to the Employment Schemes Office to see what could be done to find work for the 400 men in question. When I went there what did I find—a regulation of the previous administration which prevented me from getting work or trying to get work for those unemployed men. That is the reason why Deputy Lemass did not pursue the matter any further. I can quite understand Deputy Peadar Cowan saying that the reply given would not do. He is a new Deputy and he does not know the difference. Deputy Byrne and Deputy Burke did not understand the difference either. Deputy Lemass, however, did understand it and that is the reason why he did not pursue it. For the purpose of having it on the Official Records of the House let me quote the regulation:

"Only workers who, in the opinion of the surveyor, are fully capable and suitable for the work in hands are to be employed, and for this purpose the surveyor is to have a free selection of labour from men in receipt of unemployment assistance."

At the moment in this city there are roughly 7,000 men receiving unemployment assistance. According to the regulation not until the unemployment insurance benefit of those other 400 men has been used up can I get them employed. Still I am held up because I do not find work for those 400 men. Why? On account of the regulation of the previous Government.

Mr. C. Lehane

Will the Parliamentary Secretary see to it that the regulation is changed?

Mr. Donnellan

I am hoping I will.

Mr. C. Lehane

That is the important thing, so far as the men and the Department are concerned.

Mr. Killilea

And produce the plan that was supposed to be there for the relief of the turf workers.

Mr. Donnellan

Several Deputies of different Parties stated that the Office of Public Works is the most important office at the moment. I think Deputy O'Rourke was one of them. When Deputies go down the country and say from political platforms that a dud was shoved into it and stuff of that description, I ask the House if politics have not stooped to a very low level? "The fellow was shoved into it," as was said in my town last Sunday, "to take the crumbs that fell from the table of a certain political Party." I want to assure the House that if I am in that office it is at the request of the Minister of the day. I have not gone into that office for any gain whatsoever, financial or otherwise. I have gone into it as a man who was bred, born and reared in rural Ireland, to do for rural Ireland all that is humanly possible for any individual, regardless of political talk or political influence, to do. Deputy Killilea said I was using that office for political purposes. He said that Clann na Talmhan club secretaries are writing to that office. I think I am right in that.

Mr. Killilea

No. Quote me correctly if you quote me at all.

Mr. Donnellan

The Deputy said "if". He used the word "if" about 25 times. I remember the year 1944. I was not then very long in Dáil Éireann. Deputy Smith was Parliamentary Secretary at that time. Speaking on this Vote in that particular year, I said:

"I know of one special scheme in my own area which would have accommodated at least 25 people, and which was a most necessary work. I went on three occasions to the Parliamentary Secretary in connection with the matter and I was very pleased when I found that it was sanctioned."—(Dáil debates, column 572, 14th June, 1944.)

I was then a member of the Opposition. I approached the Parliamentary Secretary on three different occasions. That scheme was sanctioned. The office was not then used for political purposes. The office is not to-day used for political purposes and, so long as I and the present Government remain in office, it will not be used for political purposes. All I ask is that Deputies will send their schemes up to us. Some of them may be turned down, as Deputy McQuillan stated. The reason why they will be turned down is because they will not conform with the rules and regulations governing the scheme.

Mr. McQuillan

We want those rules and regulations changed.

Mr. Donnellan

We cannot change them for you at the moment. It is not true that the office is used for political purposes. Deputy Beirne raised the point that sometimes Deputies are aware of schemes before other representative in their constituency know about them. When I was in opposition I had that idea too. I have now discovered that, if there is any leakage, that leakage does not come from the Office of Public Works. I am sure Deputy Killilea will agree that when I was in opposition I got as many schemes through as he did; perhaps I got more schemes through than he did. Therefore it can hardly be said that the office was used for political purposes. If the schemes sent in to us conform with the regulations the money will be sanctioned for them.

Mr. Killilea

Then the statement you made at Ballygar is not true.

Mr. Donnellan

Does the Deputy know where Ballygar is? What did I state in Ballygar?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What was said at Ballygar is not relevant on this debate. Let us continue with the Estimate.

Mr. Donnellan.

It is said that I made a statement at Ballygar. Deputy Killilea seems to think that everything he sends in will get the blue pencil. I have never yet seen anything in my office from Deputy Killilea.

Mr. Killilea

That is absolutely untrue.

Mr. Donnellan

Deputy Childers adverted to the fact that £200,000 of our Vote had gone to the county councils.

Mr. B. Brady

On a point of order, the Deputy states that something the Minister said about him is untrue. Should the Parliamentary Secretary not be asked to withdraw the statement?

Mr. Donnellan

I do not withdraw the statement. I have not yet seen any scheme in my office from the Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has put a question as to whether the Parliamentary Secretary should withdraw a statement which has been characterised as untrue. There is no reason why he should be asked to withdraw it. The Deputy says the statement is not true and that is all there is to it.

Mr. Killilea

On a point of personal explanation, the Parliamentary Secretary has stated that he has yet to see anything from me going into the Board of Works. I can produce letters and cards from that Department showing that I have made representations day after day. I want him to withdraw his statement here.

Mr. Donnellan

Deputy Killilea does not understand the English language. I said I have not yet seen anything from Deputy Killilea in my office.

Mr. Killilea

I demand a withdrawal of it. The official sitting beside the Parliamentary Secretary knows it is untrue and I want a withdrawal of it.

Mr. Donnellan

I repeat my statement. I have not yet seen in the Board of Works anything from Deputy Killilea in my office.

Mr. Gilbride

You must not be there at all, so.

Mr. Donnellan

I have done more in the past four months than Fianna Fáil did in the previous 16 years. Deputy Childers referred to the fact that £200,000 of our Vote had been taken away from us and given to the county councils. I think Deputy O'Grady made a similar reference. That is quite true. Our Vote is for the relief of unemployment and that money has been devoted to that purpose. The unemployment problem will be closely watched, and if during the coming winter more money is needed for the relief of unemployment it will be found. Deputy Childers also stated that the farmers were too poor to contribute to rural improvement schemes. Probably the farmers are too poor.

Mr. Childers

In certain areas.

Mr. Donnellan

In certain areas. The regulation is that we must find at least 75 per cent. If a case is made where a higher grant is wanted a higher grant is given. Where the people contribute 25 per cent. of the cost preference is given to the carrying out of the work and, as a rule, the farmers earn much more than they contribute to the scheme in the long run. Deputy Childers mentioned that some schemes are held up at the moment because they have not been inspected. It is true that they are held up owing to shortage of staff. It is, however, our intention to rectify that situation as soon as possible and to have all schemes inspected. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle, when speaking in this debate——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle does not speak. Deputy Hogan speaks.

Mr. Donnellan

Deputy Hogan stated that it was detrimental to have so many different schemes. I can assure the Deputy that if representations in regard to these schemes are addressed to the wrong section they are promptly transferred to the section to which they should have been addressed in the first instance. The only reason why any scheme is ever turned down is because it does not comply with the regulations.

Deputy Sheehan made a very honest contribution to the debate. He said that Deputies who spoke about the dreadful step of closing down the hand-won turf scheme showed no sincerity. I am surprised at the Fianna Fáil Party's attitude in this matter. They were in office for 16 years. They must appreciate what responsibility is. They must know that turf was an emergency scheme. Turf does not really come within the admit of my Vote but several references have been made to it during the debate. Turf was an emergency scheme. All emergencies cease at some time and hand-won turf could no longer be continued when the emergency ceased. Deputy Moran told us of the terrible unemployment in Mayo. We sent down £18,000 to the Mayo County Council and they refused to accept it. Deputy Moran said it was not enough. I say it was not a bad start. They would not accept it and the position, therefore, cannot be as bad in Mayo as some people would have us believe. If the position is bad then the people there should blame Deputy Moran for it.

Deputy Cogan said that some of our schemes are held up because an individual objects. I have known of such cases, but the fact is that we have not compulsory powers; we cannot compel anybody. In some of these schemes there are free grants. The bog development scheme or the minor employment scheme carries a full cost grant. In my own area, when I was in opposition here, I came across individuals who objected. That is regrettable but, not having compulsory powers, we cannot intervene. Very often you find that these objections are withdrawn and the scheme goes through. I would not wish that we would get compulsory powers, because it would cause bad blood.

Other Deputies raised the point that if we can make full cost grants for roads and bog development schemes, why not a full cost grant for rural improvements schemes. If we give a full cost grant for bog development schemes the reason is that we have a guarantee that there will be increased turf production.

Deputy O'Rourke mentioned sports fields and said we should do something for them in our schemes. We would love to do it, but it is not possible. As one interested in that type of sport, I would love to do something, but I find that there are many more necessary schemes, such as roads into villages and bogs, and we must attend to them first. If I were asked to spend money on sports fields I could not help thinking of more necessary works, such as roads into bogs.

Deputy Dunne and Deputy Rooney referred to the Ring Common drainage scheme. That is being investigated as a rural improvements scheme and I believe we may be able to give a 75 per cent. grant in that case.

Deputy Bartley referred to marine works. We do such works, but in all cases we get a contribution from the local council. I am sorry to say, as a Galway man, that the council in Galway is one of those that does not assist this office very much by giving contributions. I realise the necessity for such works. There is an old saying, and a very true one, that a stitch in time saves nine.

Deputy Kissane to-day referred to the employment schemes for this year. They are the very same as in previous years, but there is a special scheme for turf. He also referred to the position in Kerry. I can assure him that schemes are being prepared for Kerry and as far as we are concerned that area will not be let down.

Deputy Beirne of Roscommon mentioned that the setting up of our own offices would be very welcome and Deputy O'Higgins indicated that there was no unemployment in his area. Generally speaking, it is in the counties where the greatest turf production was that you would expect to find the most unemployment. I come from such a county and I cannot find it. I heard Deputies making statements about that position and I can tell you honestly that they are laughed at. In the rural areas I cannot find what you may call a terrible lot of unemployment. I cannot find any at all.

Deputy Madden said it was reported in his constituency that the rural improvements scheme was dropped. It does not surprise me that that was stated in Limerick, considering that in my own town two Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party and a Senator of the Fianna Fáil Party, speaking last Sunday, said that since I went into the Board of Works minor employment schemes, bog development schemes and rural improvements schemes were to be dropped. I do not wonder, in these circumstances, at Deputy Madden's statement.

Mr. Killilea

Such a statement was never made.

Mr. Donnellan

I can assure Deputy Madden that the rural improvements scheme is not being dropped; neither is the minor employment scheme, the bog development scheme, the farm improvements scheme or the new field drainage scheme that has been so much discussed here. We were told that some schemes were better than others and probably they are. If the farm improvements scheme is a better scheme it is still there, side by side with the others, and God knows the farmer is a good judge of the best scheme to take. If he takes the field drainage scheme, it is because that is the best.

Deputy Kennedy said that certain accommodation roads should be inspected every five years and kept under repair. I am sure the House will realise that if we had to do that we would require a huge staff and even then it would be nearly impossible to carry it out. The Deputy also said we should look after the cutting of hedges along the roadside. I agree that such a thing is very necessary, but we have no compulsory powers. We are not like a local authority; we cannot compel people to do this work.

Deputy McQuillan complained about the terrible position he was in. He said that the man who is responsible for the regulations in the Minor Employment Schemes Office should be in a lunatic asylum. He complains of the replies he gets that certain works cannot be done. I think Deputy Commons also had the same complaint to make. The reason is that these works do not come under the regulations. If Deputy McQuillan, Deputy Commons or any other Deputy sends communications about schemes in areas where there are not enough registered unemployed, they will get replies indicating that those schemes do not apply.

Mr. J. Flynn

I mentioned that, too. Those regulations are in operation since 1936 and they should be changed.

Mr. Donnellan

Deputy McQuillan and other Deputies should not be too hard on us. The regulations are there and we try to carry them out.

Mr. C. Lehane

Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that the register of unemployed in any area conveys a true picture of those not actually in gainful employment?

Mr. Donnellan

I suppose the cute thing would be to say: "I will not express any opinion on that," but there was an inter-departmental committee set up some time ago—I forget the year —and a member of that committee asked me what I thought about the registered unemployed. I am sure the House will agree with me that there are many people amongst the registered unemployed who, if they were offered work, would not take it.

Mr. C. Lehane

Many people will not agree with the Parliamentary Secretary in that statement.

Mr. Donnellan

There are many people amongst the registered unemployed who are not what one might call manual workers at all. I think this inter-departmental committee decided that roughly you would normally find 30 per cent. of the people on the register in an area who were of the manual labour class. I shall send a report on that to the Deputy.

Captain Cowan

I think Deputy Lehane's point is that there are a number of unemployed who are not on the register at all.

Mr. Donnellan

That is their own look-out. I do believe that the present register——

Mr. C. Lehane

It is not a complete picture.

Mr. Donnellan

Who is to blame for that? If we do not get them on the register, we cannot do anything for them. Deputy Kitt made reference to schemes in his area projected for a long time back for which the people had sent on the money and which were not carried out. If the Deputy gives me particulars of these schemes, I shall look into them and see what can be done. Deputies raised several matters throughout the debate—it has been proceeding for three days—that I may overlook now, but I can assure these Deputies that I shall read over the debates and anything which I can do in reference to the matters which they raised I shall do.

Some Deputies took me to task in connection with a statement which they alleged I made—I think it was Deputy Corry introduced the matter—in reference to link roads. I stated that for the future where a link road connected two public roads we would give a full-cost grant provided the county council or the local authority of that area maintained the road. Deputy Killilea, Deputy Kitt and Deputy Beegan referred to this matter. On the 14th April, Deputy Beegan put down a question addressed to me on the matter and I gave him a reply. I am surprised that Deputy Corry did not read that reply. I am sure he did but he pretends that he did not. I shall quote the reply now:

"Under the existing procedure for the rural improvements scheme, a grant can be made for the repair of any road which connects two county roads, without requiring a contribution from the adjoining landholders, provided that:

(1) the link is of sufficient importance as a public road; (2) the cost is not excessive in relation to its utility; (3) the work is not one which the county council would otherwise have done out of their own funds; and (4) the county council, with the approval of the Minister for Local Government, undertake to maintain the road on completion."

That was my reply. I stated that that would save some county councils money which they had to expend before. It probably would but I cannot for the life of me understand how a county council such as Cork should come together and dictate to us the schemes we are to do. The schemes must come to us from the people concerned themselves and our officers are the people to decide whether or not we are going to give a full cost grant. Our office, with the consent of the Local Government Department, will ask the county councils to maintain these roads and keep them under contract but we are not going to have county councils deciding for us the roads we are going to do. Let the people themselves send their schemes to us. We shall send our engineers on to them. The matter will come before the officials of our office and they are the people who will decide.

I have been reading over Deputy Corry's speech in which he said that they have sent up something like £64,000 worth of roads with £56,000 worth more to follow. He also said— I hope I do not misquote him—that these were roads that their council had done and that some of them were roads which they intended to do. My reply to that is to be found in No. 3 of the answer to the question—that the work is not one which the county council would otherwise have done out of their own funds. Deputy Corry said that these were roads they themselves intended to do and he, therefore, disqualified these roads. I am afraid he will have to take a single ticket back to Cork for these roads.

Mr. Corry

On a point of explanation, I should like to clear this matter up. The statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary as published in the papers was as follows:—

"A sum of £12,000 to £15,000 will be saved to the ratepayers this year in making new roads. These roads will be made by the Board of Works provided the county council guarantees their maintenance."

That was the statement as published in the Press, made by the Parliamentary Secretary. How are the ratepayers to be relieved of a road that the county council would not do, according to his regulations?

Mr. Donnellan

"Which otherwise they would not have done"—that is my statement.

Mr. Corry

Which otherwise they would not have done?

Mr. Donnellan

The Deputy said they would do them.

Mr. Corry

We sent to the Parliamentary Secretary a definite guarantee of the county council for their future maintenance. This is not a political matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary gave way to the Deputy. Now the Parliamentary Secretary is resuming.

Mr. Corry

Were these false promises, or is the Parliamentary Secretary going to hold to these promises?

Mr. Donnellan

There were no false promises. If the Deputy reads the reply to Deputy Beegan's question he will find a full explanation of the position.

Mr. Kitt

On a point of explanation——

Mr. Donnellan

I shall not give way.

Mr. Kitt

Is this a quibble in order to get out of the roads we intend to send up for County Galway?

Mr. Donnellan

What is the quibble about? That is not a point of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of explanation. It is an argument. The Deputy will resume his seat.

Mr. Donnellan

I am surprised at Deputy Kitt. I would expect some intelligence from a member of his profession. My point is that I should like to know who gave authority to the Cork County Council or the Galway County Council to select roads for our Department.

Mr. Corry

To what?

Mr. Donnellan

Who gave them authority? Do you think that the Galway County Council or the Cork County Council would allow our office to interfere in their work? We shall give full cost grants in the case of schemes that come to us from Cork, Galway or any other county, which are sent up by the people—that is, rural improvement schemes connecting two public roads which our officials decide are of public utility and of advantage to the people and which the county council, with the consent of the Local Government Department, agree to maintain. That was always the case. It was the case when Deputy O'Grady was Parliamentary Secretary and also when Deputy Smith was Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Corry

I closed that porthole too.

Mr. Donnellan

That is the position with regard to these roads. No local authority is going to decide for us what roads we are to do. It is our office which will decide that. We will do all the schemes it is possible for us to do which come within the limits prescribed.

Mr. Kitt

The Parliamentary Secretary is still a member of Galway County Council.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is making an argument and not an explanation. Unless the Parliamentary Secretary gives way, the Deputy is not entitled to interrupt by making a statement of that kind.

Mr. Kitt

Through you, Sir, I asked him to give way for a point of explanation.

Mr. Donnellan

I want to say that I am very grateful to all the Deputies who have spoken.

Mr. Killilea

Could the Parliamentary Secretary say whether, in respect of schemes already submitted of the nature referred to, it will be sufficient to write to the Department to remind them of them, without making further application?

Mr. Donnellan

If the Deputy writes to the office, he will get a reply.

Mr. Kitt

There is to be a special meeting of the Galway County Council and a lot of the ratepayers' money will be saved by cancelling that meeting, in view of the new information from the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Donnellan

What information have you got? Have you not got the official reply to Deputy Beegan? Did I ask you to call a meeting of the Galway County Council? Who asked you to call it?

Mr. Kitt

If you made fools of the people in Cork, there is no use in trying to make fools of the people of Galway.

Mr. Corry

He is not done with Cork yet.

Mr. Donnellan

As I say, I am very grateful to all the Deputies. Anything I can do, with the close co-operation of the director and staff, will be done, and anything we can do to relieve the unemployed in the different areas, especially in the matter of bog development and schemes of roads where we can get local authorities to maintain them, we will do.

Mr. O'Grady

The Parliamentary Secretary, I have no doubt inadvertently, conveyed an impression which he did not intend to convey. He said that, while the office was under the control of Deputy Smith, it was not used for political purposes and that it would not now be so used, leaving a gap in between. In fairness to the man who held that office, the late Deputy Hugo Flinn, and perhaps to myself, I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to clear up the misunderstanding which might be possible.

Mr. Donnellan

I can assure Deputy O'Grady that that was never meant. The reason I overlooked mentioning his name was that he was such a short time in the office. I have not got the slightest doubt that Deputy O'Grady was as honourable a man as ever entered, or ever will enter, the office.

Mr. Killilea

The Parliamentary Secretary made a statement to the effect that I said to him at some stage: "Why do you go to the Board of Works or the Custom House? Why do you not do as I have done for the past 18 years—make promises and do nothing about them? That will always elect you." I never made such a statement to the Parliamentary Secretary. It is just one of a number of untruthful statements he made here to-day.

Vote put and agreed to.