Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Dec 1948

Vol. 113 No. 9

Adjournment Debate—Price of Pigs.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

To-day I asked the Minister for Agriculture:

"If he will arrange for the Pigs and Bacon Commission to fix a minimum price for bacon pigs that will ensure that the surplus potato crop can be profitably fed to pigs, thereby preventing the glutting of the potato market and providing increased bacon supplies for consumers."

To that the Minister replied:

"I would refer the Deputy to the replies given to his question of the 13th May, 1948, and Deputy Cogan's question of 5th May, 1948. I am of opinion that, at present prices for pigs, potatoes can be profitably utilised by the producers for pig feeding where surplus stocks on hands are in excess of the immediate market requirements."

To that I put the following supplementary question:

"Does the Minister maintain that the producer has been getting the cost of producing pigs on homegrown food during the past year?

Mr. Dillon: I think that is a somewhat wider question than the Deputy set down.

Mr. P. O'Reilly: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment."

I have here before me the replies to which the Minister referred. I quote from the Dáil Reports of 13th May, 1948, Volume 110, No. 12, columns 1513 and 1514.

"Mr. P. O'Reilly asked the Minister for Agriculture whether his Department has any figures of the cost of production of pigs on home-produced foods, such as potatoes, compound meals and separated milk at present and whether he will take steps to ensure that those persons who are endeavouring to preserve the industry shall get at least their costs.

Mr. Dillon: The cost of pig production on home-produced foods depends largely on the costs of production of the various foods used. These costs vary from farm to farm and it is not practicable, in present circumstances, to collect figures on which a reliable national average could be based. From such information as is available, however, I would say that the present prices for bacon pigs cover the cost of production where the pig rearers themselves grow most of the food required, and show reasonable efficiency in their methods of production.

Mr. P. O'Reilly: Can the Minister say that the Pigs and Bacon Commission accept the statement that it takes 22 cwts. of potatoes to produce 1 cwt. of pork for bacon and, in view of the present market value of 14/- per cwt. for table potatoes and even taking a lower value of 10/- for ware potatoes for pig feeding, does he think the present price for bacon pigs is adequate to cover the cost of production?

Mr. Dillon: I feel quite certain that the Deputy and the Pigs and Bacon Marketing Commission will agree with me that a pig can no more live on 22 cwts. of potatoes than he or I could live on blanc mange.”

Deputy Cogan's question to which the Minister referred me to-day was put to the Minister on 5th May, 1948—Volume 110, No. 10, columns 1163-4-5. The question asked was:—

"Mr. Cogan asked the Minister for Agriculture whether he is aware that the prices now paid to producers for bacon pigs do not cover the cost of production and if he will immediately fix a fair minimum price for pigs based on the cost of feeding stuffs.

Mr. Dillon: The cost of pig production depends almost entirely on the supply and price of feeding stuffs. Where farmers themselves grow the bulk of the food required I am inclined to think that the present prices for bacon pigs cover the costs of production.

As regards the second part of the question, in my opinion the fixing of a new minimum price for pigs would not be warranted in existing circumstances. I am satisfied that the decline in pig production which has been proceeding for some years past is not due to low pig prices but to the scarcity of feeding stuffs and the uncertainty as to future supplies which have to be obtained from outside sources My policy is to import much larger quantities of maize at a lower price than now obtains. If my efforts in that direction are successful, the fixing of minimum pig prices can then be considered in an atmosphere of reality, and will be undertaken with a view to ensuring an attractive profit for all producers who reduce their costs of production to the minimum by exercising the maximum efficiency in their production methods."

Mr. Cogan: Arising out of the Minister's reply, is the Minister aware that the present cost of production based on home-produced feeding stuffs leaves no margin of profit whatever in pig producing, but rather a very substantial loss? The Minister has stated that he is anxious to import feeding stuffs at a cheaper rate, but pending the importation of feeding stuffs at a cheaper rate, must the farmer continue to suffer a loss on the production of pigs? I want to ask the Minister why it is that the wheat grower is guaranteed a price for his wheat for the next five years while the pig producer is not guaranteed any price.

Mr. Dillon: Substantially the answer is that pigs will pay profits without subsidies whereas wheat never could. I confidently anticipate that pigs will very, very shortly be paying such a profit that it would be inexpedient to direct the attention of the community to the margin of profit which the producer will have.

Mr. Cogan: Is the Minister aware, or can the Minister definitely state that pigs are paying a profit to the producer at the present time? I know perfectly well that they are making a loss and the Minister knows it too.

These were the replies to which the Minister directed me to-day. In view of those statements, I have been making some calculations of the cost of producing pigs for bacon purposes. On the Estimate for the Minister's Department in July I raised the matter of the cost of home-produced food that went to the production of 1 cwt. of pork and I made it clear then that I made no estimate for the cost of fire, labour, risk of loss and other items. The Minister asked me to put a figure on that and I said I had no definite figure at that time and I would not give a figure that I could not stand over. I have given consideration to the matter since and in continuance of where I left off in July I will give additional figures.

I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that I am even reducing the quantity of food so that nobody can say that it is on an inefficient method of production I am estimating costs. At that time I estimated 17 cwts. of potatoes and I reduce that to 16 cwts. Take 16 cwts. of potatoes as they were then, at 10/- a cwt., and that makes £8; 1 cwt. of compound meal, £1 8s.; 50 gallons of skimmed milk at 2d. a gallon, 8/4, and that gives the total cost of the food at £9 16s. 4d. As regards other costs I will take fire at 15/-, and labour at 6d. per day for the 14 weeks it will take to produce 1 cwt. of pork. There were many representatives of labour in the House, both municipal labour and rural labour, and I would like to know if they consider the figure of 6d. a day too much to estimate as the cost of attending the pigs. As regards labour, I think 6d. per day would allow about 25 minutes in the day for taking the potatoes from the pit or bringing them from the barn, washing them, boiling them, pounding them, mixing them and carrying them to the pig, cleaning the house and all the rest of it.

Labour, at 6d. per day for 14 weeks amounts to £2 9s. For the risk of loss I put down the moderate figure of 5/- and for interest on capital 3/6. Therefore, these other costs, apart from the costs of feeding, amount to £3 12s. 6d. Adding that to the cost of food, £9 16s. 4d., you get a total cost of producing pigs for the past year of £13 8s. 10d. per cwt. In that, there is no charge for veterinary fees, medicines, housing and bedding of the pig or for profit on the transaction. I do not think that anyone can say that I have put an excessive value on anything.

Since the illegal curing of bacon was stopped during the spring, I think I can safely say that the price of pork was about £9 10s. per cwt. It might have gone a little higher but on occasions it went somewhat lower. If that is the case, when it costs £13 8s. 10d. to produce a cwt. of pork and it has to be sold at £9 10s. per cwt., there is a loss of £3 18s. 10d. on every cwt. produced. I think those figures alone should be a sufficient warning.

Mr. Dillon

What about the price of the bonham? Would not the price of the bonham have to be added as part of the loss.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

That would make matters even worse.

Mr. Dillon

We can put the price of the bonham at £5.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

I am assuming that a pig a half cwt. can be bought at the same rate as it is sold, viz., £9 10s. per cwt, and if you add another cwt. to the weight of that pig by feeding, you get only £9 10s. for that added cwt.

Mr. Dillon

You may add another £5 per cwt. as the cost of the bonham.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

In any case, the cost of fire, labour, risk of loss and interest on capital amounts to £3 12s. 6d. per cwt. of pork produced, and then there is a wage increase of approximately 10/- per week from January next. There is an actual increase of 5/- per week in wages, and with the reduction of four hours in the working week, increased national health insurance and other small items, I think I would be safe in saying that wages will be increased about 10/- a week from the beginning of January. If we have to continue to sell pork at £9 10s. 0d. per cwt. we shall have only £5 17s. 6d. for the 22 cwts. of potatoes necessary to produce a cwt. of pork. That is 5/4 per cwt., or 8d. per stone. I do not think that anyone who considers the matter calmly would say that that was a reasonable price to give a farmer for the production of potatoes. I think that alone should make it very clear that a very considerable increase in the price of bacon pigs is due. The figures I have given ought to give consumers of bacon something to think about in regard to the gift they have been getting at the expense of the producing farmer.

There are a few other points to which I should like to draw attention. The Minister may tell me that it is not a proper system of production to feed only one pig and that the cost of labour could be reduced by feeding four, five or ten pigs. I would draw the attention of the Minister, the House and the consumer to the fact that were it not for the man who produced one pig or two pigs during the emergency, people would have absolutely forgotten the taste of bacon because there would be no pigs. The pig rancher who fed ten, 20,100 or 200 pigs, faded out absolutely when the importation of grain stopped. I say that it is not right now when imported grain is again available to throw on the scrap-heap the small farmer, the man who produced pigs and maintained a certain supply of bacon in the country for the past few years.

Then again, if farmers' prices are to be lowered by the import of foodstuffs, why also are not the prices of his requirements lowered? If it is right not to give the farmer the cost of producing such food as is produced on the farm, why is it not also right to get his requirements — agricultural machinery, household requirements, clothing and boots—at competitive prices? Why should not the same yardstick be used to measure the protection that farmers should get and that industrialists get? What would be the feelings of manufacturers in this country at the moment if boots and shoes were to be imported? What would be the feelings of the workers in those factories if that were done? I suggest there would be an outcry. Then why should food be imported in order to reduce the price that the farmers will get for his pigs, his hens, his pound of butter and so on?

We hear a good deal of talk about relief for agriculture but I say the farmer does not want to be put on outdoor relief. He merely wants to get from the fruits of his labour a price sufficient to maintain himself and his family in the same way as any other section in the land. If he gets that, he will not complain about paying his due share of any taxation either local or national. Give him the same chance that everyone else in the State has and you will find that he is as good a citizen, if not very much better, than any other class in the land.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

Deputy O'Reilly calculates that anyone who has been producing bacon pigs during the last nine months has been losing £3 12s. 6d. per cwt. on the pork produced, without taking into account the price of the bonham. If that is also taken into account, I think the calculation would suggest a loss of at least £5 per cwt. on the pork produced. On that calculation, people who have produced pigs this year have lost substantially over £1,000,000. Further, this remarkable consequence has ensued, that our people are producing more and more pigs, all eager as would appear to lose £5 per pig. I cannot accept Deputy O'Reilly's assumption that all the farmers have suddenly taken leave of their senses and are rushing madly to thrust £5 notes down the drain.

There is no obligation on anybody in this country to keep a pig if he does not want to and hard-headed men all over the country are acquiring sows and those who have not got sows are competing vigorously with one another to purchase any bonhams that are available on the weekly market. I share the view of the farmers who are keeping pigs. I am making money out of pigs myself and am at present building eight more pigsties. I intend to keep as many pigs as I can fit on the land that I own and I confidently anticipate that I shall make a comfortble profit out of every pig I fatten, because I intend to breed and fatten my own pigs.

I can only set my judgment against that of Deputy O'Reilly. Deputy O'Reilly's contention is that on every cwt. of pork produced on a farm during the last 12 months at least £3 12s. 6d. has been lost by the men who produced it. I deny that and assert that on every pig farrowed on a man's farm and raised to maturity by that farmer a remunerative profit was earned. I take it Deputy O'Reilly and I must be content to leave the verdict as to which of us is right to the majority of the people. I leave it with full confidence to their judgement and go on to say that there is nothing that will pay a good farmer better than a good sow pig except two good sow pigs.

I gather from what Deputy O'Reilly said in the course of his observations that he is opposed to the importation of yellow meal. I should like Deputy O'Reilly to inform me on behalf of the County Cavan farmers whom he represents am I to advise the Government that no maize meal is to be sent to County Cavan, because if that is the Deputy's advice I shall so arrange. I shall await the Deputy's advice on this matter, because I am perfectly wrong in my view if the Deputy is right.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

Is the Minister overlooking the statement I made that whilst the manufacturer is protected the agricultural producers should also be given the same measure of protection?

Mr. Dillon

I am now raising the issue as to whether the Deputy wishes to prevent the delivery of maize meal to County Cavan. My view is that my duty is to get for the farmers their raw materials at the lowest possible price at which they can be purchased—feeding stuffs, artificial fertilisers and all the other things that a farmer uses; my duty is to get these for him at the lowest possible price and of the highest possible quality and, when the farmer goes to sell the produce of his labour, my duty is to provide for him the best market I can find where he will get the highest possible price for the produce he has to offer.

That is the policy on which I am proceeding and, for the purposes of that policy, I seek to get for the farmers of County Cavan Indian meal or yellow meal at the lowest possible price at which it can be bought. I agree with Deputy O'Reilly that £9 10s. 0d. per cwt. is a fair average estimate of the price obtainable for bacon pigs at present. I think it is a remunerative price. Deputy O'Reilly I know will be glad to hear that after the 1st January the price he has set down for maize meal is likely to go down. I do not accept any item of his costings here as bearing even an approximate relation to what costings truly are, but I invite him, in particular, to look again at the item of interest on capital. He will only allow that the bonham pig is going to cost 22/6. I think it costs a good deal more. He presumably keeps a bonham pig for about five months. A sum of 3/6 is fairly good interest for that investment to earn in five months and if, on top of that, Deputy O'Reilly expects every farmer should have 3/6 or 7/- a year on every £1 he invests and a profit to boot, I can only remind him that the land of Ireland is agricultural land and not Golconda.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

Does the Minister not estimate the cost of the food, fire, labour and risk of loss in estimating the interest on the capital that is the price of a 1 ½ cwt. at £9 10s. 0d. per cwt.?

Mr. Dillon

All I can say is that I think the Deputy is proceeding on a very conservative line, and that the costings here set out are of a much more pessimistic character than a farmer might legitimately contemplate if he were considering the desirability of keeping pigs.

However, without going into the details of these costings, I will stand on my proposition that at present there is nothing that will pay a good farmer better than a good sow pig, except two good sow pigs, and I set that against the Deputy's proposition that on every pig that is reared the farmer who raises the pig stands to lose 72/6 on the day he sells him. Let our neighbours judge between us as to which of us is right. I venture to prophesy that, as we accumulate an exportable surplus of bacon, the evidence of the Deputy's own eyes should persuade him that my calculation is nearer to the truth than is his. I am an optimist and he is a pessimist. I invite him to join with me in the ranks of optimists and rival me in the production of profitable pigs.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

The Minister has not answered the question I have raised as to what the cost of production of home produced food is.

Major de Valera

Will the Minister say where the costings are wrong in detail, and produce simple costings on the same lines—I do not mean now? I can put down a question on the matter.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 10th December.