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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Nov 1949

Vol. 118 No. 7

Private Deputies' Business. - Derating of Agricultural Land—Motion.

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
"That, in order to secure a more equitable system of financing local administration and to promote increased employment and production, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that agricultural land should be completely derated and, furthermore, that rates on houses and other property should be stabilised at a moderate and reasonable level."—(Deputies Cogan and P. O'Reilly.)

As far as this Party is concerned, we are opposed to the motion moved by Deputy Cogan and seconded by Deputy O'Reilly and the amendments by Deputy Lehane and Deputy Corry, for the reason that we do not believe that the principles advocated in the motion will solve the problem of the cost of rates to the agricultural community.

There is no doubt that the rates on agricultural land are getting to the stage when they are almost a blister on agricultural production. If this motion were passed by the House, it would not solve the problem. It would mean that the money at present found on agricultural land would have to be found otherwise. It would have to be found in taxation of one kind or another. Probably it would mean taxation in the form of an increase in the price of unrationed tea, unrationed sugar or unrationed flour. That is one way in which the money might be found if agricultural land were derated. We as a Party could not advocate or stand over such a policy. There are many ways by which the agricultural community may be helped by a relief in the burden of rates other than by fully derating agricultural land.

The case made by Deputy Cogan that agricultural land was derated in Northern Ireland was the weakest case that might be made for derating agricultural land. We know that agricultural land has been derated in Northern Ireland. We know also that in Northern Ireland they pay their full land annuities. We know also that they pay a big portion of the cost of education, furthermore, that there has been a revaluation of agricultural buildings and other buildings in Northern Ireland and that valuations have gone up by 300 per cent. We are aware that the farmers of Northern Ireland are paying in one way or another just as much per annum for their land as we are paying here.

They are getting £10 an acre subsidy.

They are getting £10 an acre subsidy, which is for a different purpose altogether.

It is derating.

They are getting a subsidy for their agricultural produce, because they plough certain land or something else. We have other types of subsidies down here. It is no harm to suggest to Deputies that, whatever is done in other countries, in Northern Ireland, England, Sweden, Norway, or anywhere else, this country and this Dáil make the plans we consider are in the best interests of the people of this country. We are not, never have been and I hope never will be, influenced by what any other country may do or how it may manage its affairs. Deputies should cease quoting what is done in Britain, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Sweden, Norway or anywhere else as an example to us. Those who manage the affairs of this country are just as capable as the people of any other country of deciding what is in the best interests of our people. In fact we are in a better position to do so. It is belittling our institutions and our State to suggest that because they do a certain thing in other countries we should follow suit. It is time to stop talking like that. It does not hold water and makes no case for derating agricultural land.

It is true that owing to progressive increase in rates over the years the burden of rates on agriculture is a serious matter at present. The indications are that the burden is not at its peak yet. I want to suggest to the Government and to the House that one means of easing that burden would be to increase the present agricultural grant. That is a direct and certain method. The previous Government during their term substantially increased the agricultural grant. I am not sure of the exact figures but the grant was increased when they took office and during the emergency it was doubled. I would be safe in saying that the grant was increased by 250 per cent. of what it was when Fianna Fáil assumed office in 1932. The Fianna Fáil Government were never remiss in taking into consideration the burden on agriculture owing to local rates and the increases due to housing, sanitation and all the other social services that were provided from time to time during their term of office.

Only a few months ago, on the Finance Bill, in the Seanad, the present Minister for Finance made a very serious statement and I hope that his colleagues who keep him as Minister for Finance will take serious note of that statement and will see to it that future Budget to carry out the threat he made in that speech last May or June in respect of the agricultural grant. It was a very significant statement. I hope that Deputy Cogan and those other Deputies who are helping to keep the present Minister for Finance in office will see to it that, instead of decreasing the agricultural grant, next year the agricultural grant will be increased. Deputy Cogan, Deputy Lehane and Deputy O'Reilly have it in their power.

And Deputy Allen.

Deputy Cogan, Deputy Lehane, Deputy Halliden and other farmer Deputies have it in their power to see to it that the Minister for Finance will increase the agricultural grant. That is a certain way by which the farmers can be relieved of the present burden of rates.

Where will the increase come from?

The previous Government increased the agricultural grant by 250 per cent.

By taxing beer and tobacco.

Let it be said that it is good, sound national policy to relieve the burden on agriculture by taxing beer and tobacco—quite good, sound national policy to do it, if necessary.

Now it is out.

It would be good policy if the burden were too great on agriculture. If we had to tax beer and tobacco, let beer and tobacco be taxed, if that will increase agricultural production and relieve the burden on agriculture. I have no doubt about it. It is something that would be accepted.

It was not accepted some time ago.

It was accepted by the most of Ireland.

Not by a majority of the people.

It does not arise.

If you, Sir, will not allow a discussion of the tax on beer and tobacco——

It does not arise.

——we will have to wait for another occasion. Deputy O'Higgins, I am sure, will not be averse from supporting Deputy Cogan, Deputy Lehane, Deputy Halliden, Deputy O'Reilly and other Deputies who would like, as we all would like, to see the burden on agricultural land reduced. He represents an agricultural constituency and understands the needs and has been told about the needs of the farmers there. I am sure that he has been told that, as a result of action taken by the coalition Government——

They are better off than ever before.

——their rates have gone up considerably within the past year. I am sure that his constituents have informed him that, as a result of the withdrawal of certain moneys previously paid to county councils in relief of rates, for home assistance and other social services, the rates on agricultural land have been put up within the past year.

The Deputy's constituents are quite happy, thank you.

I am sure the Deputy will be only too happy to give his colleagues a hand in persuading the Minister for Finance to provide additional moneys for the agricultural grant next year to relieve farmers. That is a far more equitable way of doing it than to relieve agricultural land completely of rates. Agricultural land at present enjoys certain fairly substantial reliefs. They are given on the basis of employment—a sound basis—and all that is necessary is an increase in the funds provided each year in the Budget to enable relief to be given directly in that way.

The principle of rating in respect of any property is a sound principle. All property, we in this Party believe, should contribute its just share towards the maintenance of the social services of the country. The only question at issue is what is a fair share for any section of the community—for those who have agricultural land and those who live in urban areas. It is all-important at present, as it will be all-important in future, that the burden of rates on agricultural land should not be such as will retard production. Agriculture is a primary industry, producing the wealth of the country, and any increase in the burdens on agriculture must damage agricultural output. At the same time, the principle that all property, whether land, buildings or other property, should contribute towards the social services of the country is sound and one that should be maintained. Agricultural land has no more right to claim complete exemption than has, say, the working man who is paying rates on his plot of land. Such land should not be fully derated, but should continue to pay its just share, a share, the paying of which will not injure it in any way.

With regard to the amendment moved by Deputy Lehane, that there should be a fixed annual charge of not more than 7/6 in the £, I wonder whether the Deputy gave serious consideration to what the proposal might mean. He is aware that, in many county council areas up to a year or so ago, the rates were not 7/6 in the £ on land, taking into consideration the agricultural grant. The average rate is higher in the present year, but there are some counties in which the rates is not much over 7/6 in the £, if we take into consideration the agricultural grant. Others are much higher, I know, and the signs are that there will be increases in future, and the Government must keep it under close observation.

As local authorities continue to provide more houses, more sanitation and water schemes, and more social services in many directions the rates will tend to increase. Like my colleague, Deputy Corry, I should like to protest against the policy which has been in operation since this Government took office of sending down cut and dried increases in the wages, salaries and so on, to local authorities. That has been the fixed policy of this Government. I think it is a dangerous policy and the two Ministers who are here at the moment will agree with me that it is far from being a democratic policy. Local authorities had the experience within recent months of receiving from the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Health and the Minister for Social Welfare circulars to the effect that the Minister was prepared to sanction increased allowances or salaries for certain types of officials, provided the local authority was prepared to raise the money.

When such a circular came down local authorities had no option but to provide the money, and I want to protest against it. I am sure that the Ministers who sent out these circulars never stopped to consider the effect of them. We had a circular during the year from the Minister for Health, telling us that a certain type of official in our hospitals was to get a 96-hour fortnight. He seems to be hedging on that recently, as it would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, it being directly a matter of expense for the Exchequer, but, inside a few years, these charges will come to be borne in part by the local rates. Local authorities are given the function in that matter of providing taxation, and, where additional taxation is being put on local rates, it should not be put on directly by any Minister. It is outside his duty and his function altogether and he has no authority in law to do so. No Minister of the State has authority in law to fix the wages, salaries or allowances, except in certain specified cases, of local authority employees.

What about the pegging down of these wages?

I hope that increases in rates will not be the result in future of further circulars from Government Departments.

What about the standstill Order?

If the Deputy will stand still for a moment, we will be able to get on. Agricultural land is unable to bear the full burden of the agricultural rate at the present time and without the grants given under various Acts from the central authority, the burden would be altogether intolerable and ratepayers would find it absolutely impossible to pay their rates. As I have said before, the burden has reached breaking point and something must be done to lessen it. I suggest that the way to do that is to increase the agricultural grants as the probability is that the rates will be further increased as local authorities continue to expand their services in the matter of housing and other amenities which they are bound to provide.

The Minister for Local Government is concerned with the collection of rates and with the maintenance of public services like roads, housing, sanitation and health services. He is fully aware of the fact that every house erected by a local authority puts an added burden on the agricultural community. He is also aware that with the increased motor traffic more money has to be spent year after year on the roads. He is further aware, I am sure, that in the present year, instead of increasing the amount of the road grant, this Government saw fit to reduce it. I hope that will not be repeated next year and that we shall see a big increase in the road grant in the coming spring. Within a few short weeks the Government will be considering that matter and I hope that Deputy Cogan and those who are supporting this motion will use their good offices with the Minister for Local Government towards securing an increase in that grant. Now is the time to insist that an increase should be given. The cost of road maintenance has been increasing year by year. Even in the present year local authorities have had no alternative to spending very large sums of money—much more than the ratepayers can afford—to maintain the roads in a fit condition to carry the traffic passing over them. Motor traffic has almost doubled since the emergency ended and no roads, except tarred or concrete roads, can stand up to the heavy traffic which we see in every part of the country at present. I therefore hope that those who are supporting this motion will see to it that something will be done in the way of providing direct grants from the Road Fund or in the way of increased agricultural grants to relieve this heavy burden. That is a much better way and a far safer way of dealing with this problem. The ratepayers and farmers generally are prepared to play their part so far as possible; they have always done so and I am sure they will continue to do so as far as lies in their power.

The Minister for Agriculture, on the last evening this motion was debated, told us that there was no necessity for any relief in the rates on agricultural land at the present time. The Minister for Agriculture was one of those, with the Minister for Lands and other members of the present Government, who were always strongly in favour of derating in years past. I am sure the Minister for Lands has the very same view to-day.

When calves were fetching 10/- each.

I have no doubt the Minister for Lands will press his colleague, the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Finance to ensure that the burden of rates on agricultural land will not be increased in future and, if anything that it will be reduced. The Minister for Lands is well aware of the condition of agriculture and I am sure he does not agree with his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, that there is no necessity whatever for any relief for farmers at the present time. I have no doubt that when the Government come to consider this matter inside the next month or six weeks that he will be able to put on the screw.

How much did the Deputy do for the farmers when his Party were in power?

The Minister is a man who always stood for the derating of land. Inside the last few years he moved a motion in favour of derating and spoke at length on the matter. He asserted that without derating the farmers could not carry on. I am sure the Minister is well aware that the farmer's burden has increased very considerably in the interval and that the farmers are getting no more for their produce now.

I heard that Rip Van Winkle slept for 20 years but you must have been asleep for the last three or four years.

Deputies and Minister might address the Chair, even in interruption.

The Minister for Lands is well aware that, since he last advocated derating in this House, the price of agricultural produce has not gone up; it has decreased in some directions. I challenge anyone to deny that. I make that statement very definitely. Deputies on the opposite side now have it in their hands to lessen the burden that presses so heavily on the agricultural community. Now is the time to do it. There is no use in Deputy Lehane from Cork making a case here if he does not take action.

Will you vote for it?

It is very easy to talk here, to send your speech down to the local papers and then go into the Lobby to support the Government in maintaining the agricultural grant at the present figure or even at a reduced figure, which will not give sufficient relief to the farmers. Deputy Halliden from Cork was also always very interested in the derating of agricultural land. He has advocated it in season and out of season for many years. I am suggesting to Deputy Halliden that he and his colleague, Deputy Lehane, and the leader of their Party, the Minister for Lands, now have the matter in their hands and they have full power to give this much-needed relief to agriculture.

Do you not think that Deputy Halliden and his colleagues know what to do?

If he does his duty as a pledge-bound member of the farmers' group, he has the power in his hands to compel the present Government to reduce the burden on agriculture. I have no doubt he will do so ably aided by his colleague. Deputy Lehane, and his two other colleagues, Deputy Cogan and Deputy O'Reilly, under the able leadership of the Minister for Lands. Deputy Blowick.

I have no doubt that within a short time, as a result of the combined efforts of the farmers' group in the present Government, the farmers will get the much needed reliefs they have been crying out for and which this farmers' group has been advocating here in season and out of season when rates were not as high as they are to-day and when the price of agricultural produce was just as high or higher than it is to-day. It would be an extraordinary thing to let this golden opportunity pass of getting this relief which they so much desire and which we all desire so much.

This particular motion has been moved at various times over many years and has each time been defeated by whatever Government was in power. The motion is unquestionably inspired by the idea of bringing relief to farmers and land owners, an object which undoubtedly has the support of everybody in the House. Deputies on all sides are desirous of helping the farmer and making him prosperous, but the best method of approaching the question would not appear to be a motion such as this, having regard to its fate each time it came before the House. I suggest that all through that time it was desired to help the farmer because in helping the farmer naturally every Party was helping itself as the farmer controls the basic industry of the country and it is in the interest of the country as well as the farmer that he should be made as prosperous as possible.

In moving this motion, Deputy Cogan seems to have raised doubts as to the efficacy of the particular method, because he suggested that, even if it were passed, it was not going to solve the problem nor even bring a great measure of relief to farmers, but he thought it would probably lead to a general revision of the system of rating. Possibly, such a revision is necessary. But the system of rating is pretty old now. It has oftentimes been grumbled against. The paying of rates is by no means a pleasurable duty at any time, nor is the paying of taxes, particularly if a person feels that he to pay or capable of paying in com-is charged in excess of what he is liable parison with his fellows. Sometimes, I suppose, farmers may feel a genuine grievance that their rating is too heavy for them, that they are not able to meet it, and that some other section of the community is getting away with it, but I think that, while figures are rather cold things, they will be fairly illuminating in this debate when I come to indicate the position that farmers occupy in comparison with other citizens. I am sure farmers are not anxious to be put in a privileged position, to be constituted a sort of ascendancy. They only want a reasonable and fair crack of the whip in order to get an opportunity to develop their land and to pull their weight as citizens in common with everyone else.

The cost of this motion, if it were to be passed, would be something in the region of £7,000,000. At the moment the agricultural grant has piled up to £3,962,000. That grant has had a varied career. It has been at different figures right through the years and it would be interesting to read them in order to show what it has reached now and to see how it has kept pace with the expenses and costings of the agricultural industry. The grant was fixed at £599,011 under the 1898 Act. In 1925 it was doubled, bringing the amount to £1,198,022. In 1931 a further supplementary grant of £750,000 was added, bringing the total to £1,948,022. In 1932, an additional sum of £250,000 was provided, to bring the total grant to £2,189,022. The first reduction in the amount of the grant was effected in 1933 when the grant was reduced by £448,022 to £1,750,000. In 1935, however, a sum of £220,000 was added to make a total grant of £1,970,000. In the year 1936 the amount of the grant was again reduced, on this occasion by £100,000, to £1,870,000, at which figure it remained until the provisions of the 1946 Act came into operation in the financial year 1946-47. The 1946 Act, in addition to increasing the grant substantially, made the fundamental change that a grant of a fixed amount was no longer provided. Instead, it laid down that the grant would be the amount needed to give reliefs on the following basis: (1) A primary allowance at the rate of 3/5th of the general rate on land valuations not exceeding £20 and the first £20 of higher valuations; (2) a supplementary allowance of 1/5th of the general rate on the whole of the land valuation above £20; (3) an employment allowance calculated at the rate of 10/- in the £ on the land valuation above £20, subject to the limitation of £6 10s. 0d. for each man at work.

With the inevitable increase in rates which is a feature of local expenditure, the grant under the Act of 1946 shows an annually increasing liability on the Exchequer. The amount of the grant, as determined on the new basis provided for under the Act of 1946, amounted to £2,910,378 in 1946-47, £3,175,726 in 1947-48, and £3,624,035 in 1948-49. That is to say, it increased by over £1,000,000 in the first year of operation of the new Act; in the second year it increased by a further £300,000, and it increased by a further £450,000 in the third year. It is not yet possible to give a final figure in regard to the amount which will come in course of payment from the grant for the current financial year, but it appears likely to exceed £3,900,000.

I suggest that at no time has there been neglect of the farmers' interests, and I consider that the continuance of this grant on an increasing and varying scale is a more equitable and fairer method of compensating the farmer than the proposed method of derating. On the basis upon which it is working now, it has had the effect of reducing the rating commitment of the farmer from an average rate of 22/7 to an average rate of 11/3¼ and the percentage that he contributes in rates as against his agricultural income is now 2.6. The income of the agricultural community is returned at £119,000,000 and the rating contribution is 2.6 per cent.

It was stated during the debate, rather glibly perhaps by Deputy Corry, that the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Lands and the Minister for Health were, in the main, responsible for the heavy rate operating in recent times owing to circulars sent out from their Departments instructing, in a mandatory fashion, local authorities to pay increased rates of wages which had to be piled on the backs of the agricultural community. I do not mind very much Deputy Corry making that statement. He was followed by Deputy Allen, but both Deputy Corry and Deputy Allen are, of course, perfectly aware that what they said is not so. No mandatory circular went out from my Department, and neither I am sure did such a circular go out from the other Departments. A letter did go out, a paragraph from which I propose to quote in order to show the character of it:

"Should any local authority wish to grant a special allowance by way of pension increase to any local pensioner of that authority who retired on an inclusive pension before the 1st of July, 1943, in accordance with the limits set out in this circular letter the Minister will raise no objection to the adoption of that course."

That circular suggests to the local authorities a ceiling figure beyond which they would not go. There was nothing mandatory about it. It was left to the discretion of the local authorities to grant the increase or not if they wished. That was not by any means a new procedure. A similar procedure had been adopted by the previous Administration, with this difference, that instead of sending a circular they sent an instruction to county managers in connection with salaries. It put the county managers into a position which they felt was a rather awkward one, and they had to say that they were acting on the authority of the Government. At no time did a circular of a mandatory character issue from my Department. We have too much respect for the local authorities to do that. The representatives on the local authorities are the people to give or to refuse increases.

On a point of order, am I to take it from the Minister that one circular was a request and the other——

That is not a point of order.

I would say at no time did we send a circular out to try and fix a ceiling for workers' wages, and if there were many members on county councils actuated by the same viewpoint as Deputy Corry, such a procedure would be unnecessary and a waste of time, because Deputy Corry had his ceiling already fixed.

Deputy Allen suggested that the agricultural grant ought to be increased. It has been. The Fianna Fáil Party, of which Deputy Allen is a distinguished member, reduced the grant in 1933 and 1936, and it was not until 1946 or 1947 that they raised it again above the figure at which they had kept it for so many years. Since that date the grant has been elastic and fluid to enable it to meet the farmer's difficulties. It now stands at £3,962,000, and goes in direct relief to the agricultural community.

Deputy Allen also referred to the reduction in the Road Fund grant, but he omitted completely from his mind the fact that the Local Authorities (Works) Act provides 100 per cent. direct relief from the Central Exchequer to the various local authorities to replace the Road Fund grant. In the first year of its operation, that Act has been very widely availed of by local authorities, and is bringing big and definite reliefs to every section of the people throughout the country. It has to be pointed out that if that trend goes on, as it has been going on, you will have an overloading of contributions and subsidies from the Central Fund with no corresponding equitable contributions from the elected representatives of the local authorities. I think that would create a very undesirable position. It would rob the local people of any authority and probably would vest in the central authority even more control and influence than that which Deputy Corry complains of. With bigger contributions from the central authority there would be the tendency for it to see how the money was being spent, and a corresponding irresponsibility on the part of the elected representatives to spend more lavishly. There would be no incentive to good housekeeping when they knew that the money was not coming from themselves but from the Central Fund. I believe all that would create a very difficult position.

At the present time I think that rating charges are being more than fairly met. I have here a table which makes a comparison as between the amount of rates collected and the contributions made from the Central Fund. In the year 1938-1939, State grants to local authorities amounted to £5,145,000; in the same year the amount of rates collected was £6,720,000. In 1946-'47 State grants amounted to £7,269,000 while the rates collected amounted to £8,001,000. In 1947-'48 State grants to local authorities amounted to £8,411,000 and the rates collected in the same year amounted to £8,800,000. In 1948-'49 State grants to local authorities amounted to £10,749,000 (estimated) as against rates collected in the same year, £9,500,000 (estimated). The total rates collected increased from £6,720,000 in 1938-'39 to £9,500,000 in 1948-'49. The increase of 41 per cent. in the rates collected compares with an increase of more than 100 per cent. in the State grants to local authorities.

I suggest, with all seriousness, to the mover of the motion, that the present trend of affairs is not by any means to the farmer's disadvantage. I believe that the agricultural and other grants which are being made available to him on a generous scale compensate him for the responsibility he has to pay the rates on his land. If this derating motion were to be carried it would mean transferring the rates charge from the farmer to the shoulders of somebody else. Even if it were to be transferred, it would have to be made up again by taxation. You would have to select the types of articles and goods which you would tax because of course you must avoid putting the charge back in some other form on the farmer. If bread, sugar and tea had to be taxed further in order to bring in the sum required to meet derating the farmer as well as everybody else would have to pay his share of the tax. You simply cannot tax things to do this which would mean hitting very hard the industrial and commercial workers in our cities and towns who, I am sure, already feel that they are paying sufficient in taxation. The industrialists, I am sure, would not like to have all their extra profits handed over completely to provide revenue for the relief of the farmers.

I suggest that the farmer who is paying his rates is a better man, a better citizen and a happier man and has a better right to have his voice heard on public boards under the present system—that is provided he gets reasonable relief from the Central Fund. The Government are always prepared to have due regard to the importance of his work. I suggest that derating is not a solution for this problem. I think a far better method has been adopted by the Government to make the land more profitable and productive for the farmer through the operation of the £40,000,000 land reclamation scheme which is being carried out by the Minister for Agriculture. It will provide a speedier way of helping the farmer than derating would. It will enable him to make his land more productive. It will also give him the opportunity of employing more people, and will provide him with relief in respect of the employment which he provides. I do not think a case could be made and, even if this were granted, it would be a hardship on the general community. Even if granted, I doubt if it would be an advantage to the farmers. I think the present method is a better one.

With regard to the amendment by Deputy Lehane, I do not know how it would be feasible to fix the limit of an agricultural rate. The local authority have to bear their rates according to the circumstances they meet from year to year. I have been on public boards for 25 years and I have never known a year in which we did not have a fluctuation of the rates. Why should you fix a definite limit such as is suggested by Deputy Lehane at 7/6? In my opinion, that would only create inequalities and difficulties that might not easily be overcome. If you have a fixed rate of 7/6, then the agricultural grant would not rise in proportion to the increased costs the farmer may have to meet. I believe it would be better to leave things in their present state. If the county authorities strike a rate, the farmers are aware of the proportion of the agricultural grant they will receive. If you have a fixed rate you will probably have a reduced agricultural grant. I suggest there is nothing in that point that would bring relief to the farmers. On the contrary, I believe it would raise very serious difficulties that would not be counteracted by the proposal in the motion or in the amendment.

I do not think there is much more that I can say. Nobody wants to inflict hardship on the farmers. We have to have regard for the community as a whole, and I feel that the farmers themselves have that in their minds. The operation of this proposal would not be sufficient. I suggest the Government are adopting methods which will tend to bring a speedy relief to the farmers in that there will be increased production, with consequent advantages, through the methods that have been proposed. In these circumstances I believe that neither the motion nor the amendment would improve the position.

This question of derating may seem very popular, but what the mover of the motion did not point out is where this money will come from. As a Deputy from a western county, I cannot see my way to vote for a motion of this description. It is a well-known fact that the small farmers have the biggest families. As the Minister pointed out, the money must come from somewhere else— something has to be taxed for it. I fail to see how any Deputy could vote to relieve the rancher and tax the bread, butter and tea of the small farmer who rears a big family. I think that the cutting of the grants was a bad thing. Every Government—I do not say this Government in particular—in giving money makes it conditional that there must be a contribution from the local body. It is about time that practice should cease. If Deputy Cogan or any other Deputy brings in a motion to relieve from taxation every acre that goes under the plough, I would be prepared to vote for it.

I did that.

I do not remember it.

Your Party was here at the time.

That is a different question altogether, but to derate land for the rancher and put taxation on the small farmer is a thing no Deputy from the West of Ireland could support.

It is popular to say that.

It is very popular to shout about derating. As a Deputy representing the small farmers in the West of Ireland, I do not believe this is the proper course to adopt.

I think that Deputy Cogan, by putting down a motion of this kind, whatever reception it may get from the House, has served a very useful purpose. The whole question of rating is one for very serious consideration by the Government. I take very grave exception to the statement made this evening by none other than Deputy Allen. Speaking on behalf of the ratepayers he represents, he told the House that the vast majority of the farmers are not as well off as they were some years ago. I say the farmers were never so well off in their lives as under the present Government. Despite what Deputy Killilea and others have said, that is a fact. He and other Deputies have been in Donegal for the past week or two. Is it not a fact that in Donegal the farmers are getting 1/10 and, I am told, even 2/4 a lb. for their wool, whereas under the last Government they got only 3d. or 4d.? That is something worth while going into the pockets of the farmers.

I represent as many farmers as any other Deputy and I say it would be most unfair if relief of rates was granted to one section of our people and not to other sections. We must take into consideration the agricultural worker who lives in a county council or board of health cottage. He is a ratepayer, and so is the road worker. The business man, the professional man, whether he is a doctor or a solicitor or in any similar walk of life, is also a ratepayer, and it would be most unwise to grant relief to one section and put the taxation for it on the backs of the other sections. I happen to be the chairman of a local authority and the position we have reached there is that we cannot put any additional burden on the ratepayers. The rates are severe on all sections. Despite the fact that the farmer is in a better position to pay now, we must take into consideration that he has extra services to meet and he has to bear his share just as well as other sections of the community. Every county council that meets to consider estimates is confronted with a difficult task.

Some measure of relief must come from the Government—if not from this Government, then from some other Government. We did not get it from the last Government or the one that preceded it. We must keep up the pressure until we get that measure of relief.

I suggest that the mental and all the other hospitals should be taken off the local rates. The social services should also be taken off the local rates and the main roads should be made a national charge. In Leix we contribute generously to the upkeep of the main road from Dublin to Cork. There is a heavier volume of traffic over that road, I believe, than there is in any other county. The same applies to Kildare, parts of Tipperary and parts of North Cork. I suggest that steps will have to be taken by the Government to relieve local authorities of these burdens. Definitely they should be the responsibility of the Government. Also, as regards drainage, no contribution should be asked from local authorities. This is another matter regarding which funds must come from the Government—from some central authority. If these burdens were taken off the local authorities the rates would be light. We are living under an out-of-date financial system. We find it very difficult to work under that system.

Now you are coming to it.

I am sorry the Minister for External Affairs has left the House. He has been going through various parts of the country strongly advocating a change in our financial system. I submit that if we want to see a real measure of relief the only way to get it is to tackle the financial system under which this country is endeavouring to exist. I will remind the Government that a fair share of the rates paid by the farmers is being sent by the local authorities to the banks in the form of bank interest. It is a most unfair interest; I believe it is altogether unjust. Under our present monetary system the banks have their hands deep down in the trouser pockets of the community.

That is very interesting, but I am afraid it is irrelevant.

I am merely suggesting a possible relief. Deputy Cogan has put forward his case. The Minister has put forward his case. But we are really only tinkering with the problem.

They are afraid to mention the financial system.

Exactly, and I believe our present financial system is the root cause of all our troubles in this matter.

The Deputy should put down a motion on the matter.

I have put down a motion on it. The financial system is one of the pet subjects of the Clann na Poblachta Party and I suggest that, if that Party put down a motion on it, there would be no stronger supporter of that motion in the House than myself. What Government ever before spent £40,000,000 on a scheme to improve arable land? That has been welcomed by every farmer and by other sections of the community as well. The Minister for Local Government has pointed out that people take no great pleasure in paying rates. We all know that. But rates and taxes will have to be paid so long as we labour under our present financial system. Until such time as the Government tackles that system we shall go deeper and deeper into the mire. The root cause of all our troubles, as I said before, lies in our financial system.

Derating has always been very popular but in my opinion the subject would need a much more careful examination than we have given it up to this. If the agricultural community benefits by derating on to what section of the community will the increased burden be passed in order to make up the deficit? A whole series of alternatives suggest themselves, but I do not propose to discuss them in the time at my disposal to-night. None of us would like to relieve the land, as some Deputies have pointed out, at the expense of the labourers. Again, the problem is one of direct taxation as against indirect taxation.

There is, however, something to be said in favour of the motion. There is an old saying that democracy must have representation where there is taxation. That is logical enough. In recent years general franchise has been extended to local administration and all over 21 years of age now have representation on local authorities without the necessity of being ratepayers. One might argue from that, that since there is representation without taxation, we could have taxation without representation. Taxation without representation would mean that the entire community, through the Central Fund, would have to contribute to the general maintenance of local administration. Property and land would thereby be relieved of the burden of rates. But this motion does not propose that all property should be relieved. It proposes that only agricultural land should be relieved. I am afraid I could not go that far. There is an amendment which proposes to fix rates on agricultural land at a ceiling of 7/- in the £. That, of course, is not a serious proposition but, in so far as it relates to a problem present all over the country, I would be inclined to support it. I do not believe it is a practical propostion but there is an outcry all over the country against the increase in rates at the moment and there is a general feeling that, if these increases continue, there will be a breakdown. I suggest that there must be some limitation upon rate increases. Rates should not be allowed to go beyond a specific point. In my county we are paying a rate of £1 6s. 0d. or £1 8s. 0d. in the £. My county is a poor county and the ratepayers are not able to bear the burden. In order to bring home to the Government that there must be some limitation on rates, I support this motion to the extent of voting upon the amendment, which does suggest a specific figure denoting the necessity for having a ceiling.

I regret that the time limit has excluded a number of Deputies who might have added their plea in this matter. First of all, I would like to compliment the Minister upon the able manner in which he met this motion. He has made a reasonable case against it in so far as it is possible for anyone to make a case against a proposal of this kind. The Minister has pointed out that I have introduced this motion, or a similar motion, on a number of occasions in the past. In every Dáil of which I have been a member since 1938 I have put this proposal to the House. On each occasion the motion has been defeated. On each occasion Deputies, while expressing sympathy with the general principle laid down, invariably found fault with the terms of the motion. I varied the wording from time to time in an effort, if possible, to meet the wishes of the House generally. But on each occasion I found myself up against a wall of opposition. It is difficult to understand why that should be so.

While the Minister for Local Government was reasonable in his approach to this motion, I doubt if the Minister for Agriculture in the short period which he had at his disposal was equally reasonable. He said that when he was in opposition he always supported derating because there was then a rotten Government in power but, now that he has come into power himself, he is opposed to it. I think nothing is more immoral than for a public representative to make a solemn pledge to the people to do a certain thing and then, when he is in a position to do that thing, to blandly inform them that they have gained such an advantage by basking in the sunshine of his reign that there is no longer any obligation upon him to carry out his pledge. It is time this House protested against such a flagrant abuse of democracy. Democracy cannot survive unless the elected representatives keep faith with the people. I have kept faith in this particular respect with those who elected me. On four occasions in four different Dáils I have put this proposal forward. If the Minister for Agriculture was correct in stating that he supported derating when the Fianna Fáil Government was in power why did he not support a similar motion to this put forward in 1944 when Fianna Fáil was in a minority.

That was the time to carry a proposal of this kind to the House. At that time I put forward a motion which was similar, to all effects, to this. Fianna Fáil voted against it but, in addition to Fianna Fáil voting against it, Deputy Dillon voted along with Fianna Fáil. He walked into the Division Lobby with Deputy Martin Corry to vote against the proposal. Therefore, I say that there is no consistency in the attitude that the Minister for Agriculture has taken up. Deputy Allen has said that we should not compare conditions in Northern Ireland or in Great Britain with conditions here. He overlooked the fact that the farmers of Ireland sell their produce in the same market as the farmers of Northern Ireland and Britain. They have to compete with those people and under disadvantageous conditions. The farmers of Northern Ireland and Great Britain not only enjoy complete derating but they enjoy substantial subsidies upon their tillage crops. Irish farmers have to complete with them. That is, I think, a condition of affairs which ought to be brought to an end. I was glad to see that, from all sides of the House, there is an admission that rates are too high and that definite action must be taken to reduce them.

I think there was a little misunderstanding, which I was unable to clear up, in regard to this motion. This motion not only seeks to derate agricultural land but seeks to fix a ceiling upon rates on other property. Therefore, it is not right to say that this was an attempt to relieve farmers at the expense of the rest of the community. It is an attempt to keep rates within a limit and under control. I believe the time for that has come. The Minister quoted startling figures showing the manner in which the burden of rates has increased year after year during the past 10 or 15 years. I think his words prove how essential it is that this House should fix a statutory limit beyond which rates ought not to be increased. I think everybody will agree that it is a highly dangerous thing that a locally elected body, representative of only a small area, should have the supreme function of deciding what direct contribution each citizen should make in the form of rates. The fixing of direct taxation is a matter which should be reserved to the central Government.

So many points have been raised in this motion that it is not easy to deal with them all. I have consistently advocated rating reform over a long period. It is 21 years ago since 21 farmers came together in the City of Dublin and formed an organisation to press for the derating of agricultural land. I was one of them. Twenty-one years is a long time. I have kept endeavouring to secure justice for the agricultural community. People will ask where the money is to come from. Twenty-one years ago they asked where the few millions that are necessary to finance derating were to be found. Notwithstanding the fact that general taxation at that time amounted to not more than £25,000,000, people asked at that time where the additional money was to be found. But, since then, a sum of £50,000,000 was found out of general taxation and still the farmers are bearing an excessive burden. It is an excessive burden because rates, unlike general taxation, are a direct charge and the ratepayer has no option. He has to pay, regardless of his means. There is no allowance made for the man with a small income, as there is in the case of income-tax. There is no way of evading the tax as there is in regard to general taxation. It is a direct burden and a direct tax on the most important classes of the nation—on the homes of our people and on the lands of our people. Anybody who has given the matter serious consideration will acknowledge that the time has come when something definite and drastic ought to be done.

I have great sympathy with the views expressed by Deputy Flanagan in respect of the burden imposed by the interest charges which local authorities have to pay for the moneys which they require for the necessary works of development. I hope that this problem will be tackled and solved. I hope there will be a general revision of the whole policy in regard to the financing of national development works whether they are to be undertaken by the central authority or by the local authorities.

While there have been a lot of very loud protests about this proposal to relieve the burden on the ratepayer— and the question has been asked from many sides of the House of where the money is to come from—nobody seems to ask where the huge sum required for the social welfare schemes is to be found. Evidently, some means will be found to provide £4,000,000 in general taxation for that scheme and another £8,000,000 out of the pockets of the employers and employees. Nobody seems to be alarmed about the amount of money involved there. However, when it is a question of giving some little relief to the farmer everybody seems to cry out and ask where the money is to come from. I have found out, when introducing this motion, that one way would be to cut down all extravagance in administration. It is time a commission was appointed to supervise Government Departmental expenses generally. I put a motion before the House, when the previous Government was in power, on that question. I think it is essential that a searching inquiry should be made into every branch of Departmental expenditure in an effort to eliminate waste.

In addition, I believe a substantial saving could be effected in the cost of money which the local authorities have to pay in the way of rates of interest. It is not fair to say that a farmer is getting an undue privilege or favour amongst the community. We have only to consider the farmer's income as compared with the national income generally in order to be satisfied that the farmer is not extracting out of the sum of taxation or out of the national income an undue portion of the reward that is due to him. The total net income from agriculture is only a little over £100,000,000. That figure, divided among the whole farming community, gives an income of £3 per week for each person engaged in the industry— both farmers and workers. I do not think that that figure is so huge that people should cry out that farmers are unduly prosperous.

I was not satisfied with the figures the Minister for Agriculture set out before the House. He compared exports of 1949 with exports of 1947. Those unfortunate farmers who lived through 1947—who knew the conditions during the harvest of 1946 and the winter of 1947—know that it was a miracle that there were any exports out of this country during the year 1947. I think that there is a tendency to seek to put the farmers in the wrong and to exaggerate the farmers' profits, but I think that in matters of this kind it would pay Deputies to be reasonable. I am attempting to be reasonable in this motion and because of that and because of the reasonable way the Minister has met this question I am willing to accept the proposal of one Party. It does not go very far but it will relieve the burden on the agricultural community and I hope that eventually there will be a general reduction in the whole burden on every section of the ratepayers. I am, therefore, accepting the amendment to my motion.

Amendment put and declared negatived.

Motion put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 8; Níl, 98.

  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.

Níl

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Brennan, Joseph P.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dovle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Sir John L.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Fitzpatrick, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hogan, Patrick.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keane, Seán.
  • Keves, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kinane, Patrick.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Con.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lydon, Michael F.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • McCann, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William J.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheehan, Michael.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Spring, Daniel.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Timoney, John J.
  • Tully, John.
  • Walsh, Richard.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Cogan and P. O'Reilly; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Kyne.
Motion declared lost.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.35 p.m. until Thursday, 17th November, at 3 p.m.
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