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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 May 1950

Vol. 121 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Wireless Broadcasting.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £164,790 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st day of March, 1951, for salaries and other expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926), including Public Concerts.

The amount that will be needed for wireless broadcasting during the financial year 1950-51 is £247,180. This is an increase of £33,530 on the total of the original and Supplementary Estimates for the previous year. There are increases totalling £33,720 in eight of the ten sub-heads and a decrease of £190 on sub-head D, making a net increase of £33,530.

I shall refer briefly to the changes in the main sub-heads as compared with last year.

Sub-head A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances.—The sum required here is £15,700 greater than last year and the increase is partly due to the provision of additional staff urgently needed for expanding activities, including four posts to deal with complaints of interference to radio reception, and partly to improvements in the pay of the orchestras, increments, staff changes, etc.

Sub-head B—Cost of Daily Programmes.—There is an increase of £5,730 under this sub-head. £1,500 of the increase is required for the improvement of variety shows, £300 is for an extension of the news in Irish and a small provision of £100 has been made for symphony concerts to be given in the provinces. The remainder of the increase is due mainly to increased copyright fees, which are based on the number of wireless licences in force, and greater expenditure on telephone trunks.

Sub-head C—Musical Instruments, Music, etc.—The increase of £1,000 in this sub-head is due to the purchase of a number of pianos.

Sub-head E—Light, Power, etc.— The increase of £3,050 in this sub-head is due chiefly to provision for light and heat in new studios in the General Post Office and Portobello.

Sub-head F—Equipment, etc.—The increase of £7,595 on this sub-head is due to provision for equipment for radio interference investigation and to increased provision for additional apparatus required for the Dublin-Cork high power and short-wave stations. Deputies will remember that I said last year that the station needs a lot of equipment to bring it up to date, and make up for the scarcity of the war years, but we are forced to proceed slowly, and can only purchase the most pressing items of equipment this year.

Sub-head G—International and other Conferences and Conventions.—An increased amount is necessary under this sub-head because our subscription to the International Broadcasting Union has to be paid in Swiss francs, which have appreciated in value as a result of the devaluation of the pound.

Sub-head H—Telegrams and Telephones.—The increase of £360 in this sub-head is due to the extension of the activities of the broadcasting station, mainly as regards news reports and musical programmes.

Only one of the remaining sub-heads calls for special observation. When speaking on this Estimate last year I referred to the provision in sub-head I for a radio journal, and stated that I hoped that suitable arrangements would be made shortly for the provision of an official journal. The arrangements I then had in mind did not, however, materialise, and the question of the provision of a journal has not therefore yet been settled.

The receipts from wireless licence fees during the financial year 1949-50 amounted to £181,000 approximately, and from advertising programmes to about £47,000. The total receipts were therefore £228,000. The present indications are that the figure of £228,000 shown on page 1 of the Estimate as the anticipated receipts in 1950-51 will be exceeded by a fairly substantial amount, so that on a revenue and expenditure basis the service will probably pay for itself.

The number of wireless licences in force on the 31st March, 1950, was 288,495 as against 272,050 in March, 1949, representing an increase of 16,445 during the year. This increase was much less than the increase of 77,000 during the previous year but, as I explained last year, 60,000 of that increase was due to a special countrywide campaign instituted at the end of 1948 against holders of unlicensed radio sets. No special campaign was carried out last year, but wireless licence inspections are being continually carried out. In Dublin, a special staff is engaged full-time on the detection of wireless licence defaulters and in the provinces Post Office staff is employed part-time on this work. Postmasters throughout the country were recently given instructions to increase their efforts against radio pirates and as a result over 6,400 new wireless licences were taken out during the month of March. This figure was very much more than the number of new licences taken out in any previous month. As a deterrent to presons who fail to renew their wireless licences promptly the Post Office is now instituting legal proceedings at a much earlier stage than previously. During the three months January to March this year over 600 offenders were prosecuted and fines imposed.

I referred last year to the problem of interference with radio reception caused by electrical apparatus. There has been a considerable increase in the number of complaints from listeners all over the country and a campaign was started during the year to reduce this annoyance to the minimum. The fullest co-operation of the Wireless Dealers' Association was offered and gratefully accepted and manufacturers of electrical equipment have been requested to co-operate when it is found that their products are the cause of serious interference. The Post Office has now made arrangements to fit suppressors permanently to offending plant where the owners are willing to pay the cost, and in this work the activities of the wireless dealers and the Post Office will be complementary. As I mentioned already, additional investigation staff as well as additional apparatus and detection vans have been provided for in this year's Estimate. It will, however, take an appreciable time before all the complaints already received can be investigated.

On the 15th March, 1950, the Copenhagen Plan for broadcasting stations in the European zone came into operation. The Irish stations changed their wavelengths to those allocated to them in the Copenhagen Plan, but as transmissions on the wavelength allocated to the Cork station cannot be received on many of the sets now in use, it has been temporarily assigned the wavelength allocated to us for a second programme. As the plan is in operation for only a short time, it is, as yet, rather early to judge its success. Although the majority of stations in the European zone have altered their wavelengths to those allocated to them in the plan, there are 82 stations at present operating outside the plan, and these are causing interference, sometimes serious, to other stations. One of these has been spoiling our Athlone transmissions at times, but steps are being taken to deal with the matter.

Before I come to the activities of the station during the past year, I should like to refer to one matter in the international sphere which is likely to have important results for broadcasting generally in Europe, that is, the formation of the new European Broadcasting Union. As Deputies will probably know, the allocation of bands of wavelengths for broadcasting and for other services such as the international radio, telephone and telegraph services and the assignment of specific wavelengths in these bands are arranged between Governments in an organisation known as the International Telecommunications Union. Thus the Copenhagen Conference of 1948, operating on the bands allotted to broadcasting the previous year by an all-world conference of the union, determined the wavelengths on which the different countries within the European zones could work. But the problems of broadcasting do not cease, I need hardly tell the House, with the preparation of a plan. That plan has to be supervised in order that justice may be done between the parties to it. This involves continuous monitoring by an expert control centre. But apart from this task, which falls within the sphere of engineering, broadcasting gives rise to a great number of problems, for instance, in the realm of copyright, which require the unremitting attention of a permanent body in order that the way towards international conventions or agreements may be prepared and these conventions or agreements thereafter properly applied. Since the inception of broadcasting and up to the beginning of the war in 1939, tasks of this nature were undertaken in the European area by the International Broadcasting Union with headquarters in Geneva, which was composed of representatives of broadcasting organisations rather than of Governments. We were a member since 1928. During the war its activities were naturally severely limited. In 1946 a rival body, the International Broadcasting Organisation, was set up in Brussels mainly with the support of countries of Eastern Europe, but some of the Western countries also affiliated. This division has been a cause of anxiety to those responsible for the conduct of broadcasting in every country. The ether cannot be divided in accordance with one's position East or West of the Iron Curtain and it has at all times been obvious that, unless there was co-operation in the working of wavelength assignment plans, chaos would ensue. Much patient negotiation since 1946 resulted in the formation at Torquay this year of the new broadcasting union to which I referred earlier. It is comprised of practically all the broadcasting organisations of Western Europe and of the Mediterranean area, including those Western countries which were formerly members of the Brussels body. Yugoslavia is also a member. On the other hand, the withdrawal of the Western countries from the International Broadcasting Organisation means that that body, with its headquarters now situated at Prague, consists almost entirely of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and its satellites. Notwithstanding this clearcut division of broadcasters. East and West, I am glad to say that I understand the technical centres of the broadcasting bodies are co-operating to secure the best results from the Copenhagen Plan.

In presenting a Supplementary Estimate for Wireless Broadcasting to the House in March, I said that I hoped to have more information available in regard to the short-wave station when the main Estimate for this year came to be taken. I mentioned then that the transmitter and aerials for North America had been completed. Another North American aerial will actually be needed to cover a certain period of the year, and arrangements are being made to obtain and erect this aerial. We secured a share in the basic wavelength plan at Mexico in 1949 and further phases of the plan have since been under examination by a group of technical experts in Paris. The final World Conference for the consideration and adoption of the whole plan is at present in progress at Florence. The sum of £10,000 provided in this year's Estimates is required to provide the extra aerial I have mentioned and a complete set of spare parts.

I referred last year, when introducing the Broadcasting Estimate, to the unsuitable accommodation in which this service is carried out. It has not been found possible to remedy this situation completely during the year, but remedies are continuously being sought, and partial success has attended the search. For example, an additional studio has been provided for broadcasting at Portobello, Dublin, by the renovation of what was formerly a post office, and programmes have been transmitted from it since last December. This studio is mainly used by the light orchestra, and Deputies who have heard concerts from Portobello will, I am sure, agree that the new studio has greatly improved the transmission of these concerts.

Improvements, again, have been made in the Phoenix Hall, Dublin, which is the one used by the symphony orchestra; and experiment has resulted in the more varied employment of this hall for other programmes, including variety. Further, we have had the benefit—and we are grateful for it—of advice from experts of the British Broadcasting Corporation who, at the request of my Department, examined and reported upon various matters connected with our conditions of transmission. Their suggestions for further improvement in this aspect of broadcasting are being closely examined.

Again, we have not confined our efforts to broadcasting headquarters. The studio requirements of the Cork station are constantly before our minds, and there are distinct possibilities that accommodation and equipment projects in regard to which there have been discussions, will come to maturity within a reasonable time. I regret that it is not possible just now to be more explicit; but no time is being lost in the endeavour to make progress with broadcasting improvements in the Cork station.

Finally, plans are in progress for the conversion to broadcasting needs of a further limited portion of the General Post Office. When they come to maturity there will be some little relief from the admittedly bad conditions under which broadcasting is carried on at present.

Coming now to the programmes proper, I understand that these have been more varied in kind, more extensive in coverage and more finished in presentation than in any previous year. They have been more varied in kind because new means have been sought of instructing and entertaining the listener, and because there has been close collaboration between programme departments. For example, we have had programmes such as the Christmas Pantomime of 1949—in which the productions department, the music department, the script-writers, the producers, the Radio Éireann Players and the light orchestra, as well as outside artistes from theatres and concert halls, combined to give us ambitions forms of entertainment hitherto necessarily unattempted. We have had, and still have, variety and musical comedy shows in which four departments are concerned, and we have had news magazines in which the mobile unit and the news-room achieved new levels of co-operation. I mention this matter of co-operative effort because it illustrates the flexible employment of resources and because it represents a further elaboration in the use of staff sections, and also of material, which have not been at our disposal until recent years.

I mentioned just now that we have sought new means of instructing and entertaining the listener. There could be many illustrations of these, but perhaps the illustrations which affect the majority concern broadcasts to farmers and variety programmes.

The importance of broadcasts to farmers has always been fully appreciated, but the task of providing them satisfactorily has been one of the most disheartening in Radio Éireann's experience. In the past 12 months, however, further progress has been made. Two talks have been broadcast every week. These have been given by farmers, farmers' wives and others thoroughly familiar with their subjects in the most practical way; the speakers, on the whole, have been good broadcasters—some of them were excellent in every way; and the range of subjects covered has been extensive. The work of providing 100 talks a year in this field is strenuous; but the station has been aided by bodies such as the young farmers' clubs, and will in the future be increasingly aided by our own mobile recording unit. Deputies will appreciate that one special difficulty in these broadcasts is to find at what hours the majority of country people can listen to them. The present timings are the result of our having put this question to listeners themselves.

On the entertainment side, variety poses just as many problems, but here again fresh endeavours can be reported, and some success claimed. Radio Éireann has engaged script-writers and artistes from the variety stage, enrolled its own writers and actors in its ventures, and carried out a widespread search for new talent throughout the country. Among the results has been the extended run of the "Sunday Variety" show, which is a weekly 75 minutes of popular entertainment conducted before an audience in the Phoenix Hall, Dublin. The demand for tickets has revealed the success of this show, and one noteworthy aspect of it is that each week there appear several artistes who were successful in the talent competition for beginners on which the show was based. Some of these beginners immediately graduated from radio at home to radio abroad, and from radio to the professional variety stage.

In the same field of popular entertainment I might instance the increased coverage for sport, as evidence of development. Not only have the commentaries on hurling, Gaelic football, soccer, rugby and boxing matches increased in number, but a magazine feature for sports lovers, which ranges over almost the whole scene of sport, has been successfully presented every Friday for most of the year.

One of the great secrets of all entertainment and education is to secure a high degree of participation from your audience. In broadcasting, this entails bringing listeners into the studios and sending artistes and officials out from the studios to the listeners, as well as conducting a multiplicity of competitions for which listeners will enter. I have already given examples of bringing the listeners to the studios, and our news-gatherers and outside broadcasting officers provide well-known instances of going out to the listeners. But there have been new instances this year about which I wish to say a word.

The first concerns the symphony orchestra. This combination, the first professional one ever maintained in Ireland, has continued its gratifying artistic progress, and the evidence for the statement that it is advancing musical education among our people is not to be doubted. It has recently begun to enhance its effectiveness by giving concerts outside Dublin, thus affording very many of our people their first opportunity of seeing and hearing a symphony orchestra in action. Concerts have been given in Cork, Waterford and in Maynooth College. It is hoped to give concerts from other centres during the year. Apart from the enthusiasm with which they have been received, these concerts have two gratifying features. The first is that they are made possible by the interest and efficiency of local bodies and persons; and the second that at each visit a special concert is being given for children.

These events, it is not too much to say, will sow seeds from which a rich musical harvest may grow in future years. Leaving aside the chief aim— that of stimulating the appreciation of classical or serious music in a greater number of Irish people—one has always the hope that, seated in one or more of these audiences, is a handful of boys and girls, or of young men and women, in whom the gift for musical accomplishment is dormant. Should our symphony orchestra be the means of awakening such gifts, it will more than have justified its existence. I will add that at present we are weighing the possibilities of seconding this effort by sending our light orchestra to smaller towns, where conditions demand a different technique of encouragement.

In this matter of sending out people and bringing in people, we have not neglected the Irish language. The successful Irish "Question Time"—"Tráth na gCeist"—has been taken out of the studios on several occasions; while the mobile unit has combed Gaeltacht areas—and gone abroad to Wales and Cornwall—for an enrichment of material. Competitions—one for drama especially—have enlivened the Gaelic contribution to the programmes, and we have adventured in the provision of Irish pantomime and variety. As Deputies already know, we have extended the time allotted to the news in Irish by five minutes every night, so that now we have a nightly bulletin of 15 minutes' duration. Those who are thoroughly informed, both of the exacting nature of a newsman's work and of the special difficulties of performing it in the three main dialects of Irish, will best appreciate that there is here a measure of achievement.

Criticism of Radio Éireann's contribution to the language drive, and fresh demands for additional time for programmes in Irish, are normal features of the landscape of broadcasting. It is healthy that a strong body of listeners should be watchful in this, as in any other, department of our work; but I think Radio Éireann may continue to claim that no comparable institution makes more matter for instruction and entertainment available in the Irish language—and that no comparable institution stimulates more creative activity in the language—than does Radio Éireann. In this regard, few recent developments are more promising than the frequent forays of our recording unit into Gaeltacht areas; and the equipment of our vans with tape-recording machines, which will permit of uninterrupted recording over long periods of time, will this year constitute a pipeline between Irish-speaking and English-speaking parts of Ireland, such as never hitherto existed.

Recording on magnetic tape is one of the mechanical aids to broadcasting which have most excited those who are engaged in the work. The use of these tape-machines in Radio Éireann has begun, with very gratifying results, and much more use will be made of them in the future. At its best, tape-recording is indistinguishable from "live" broadcasting, and employed with sufficient imagination and skill, it can ensure certain improvements on direct or "live" transmission. Since recording by these means will be used in the process, I may here mention that among Radio Éireann's news and features plans of the past year—some of them completed, others still to be carried out—were those for the sending of engineering and other officers to Rome to make a special series of programmes on the Holy Year. Deputies will also be interested to know that arrangements are in hand to have the Angelus Bell rung over the air each evening at 6 o'clock. It will be taken from the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin. As absolute accuracy in time is, of course, essential, we cannot depend on manual ringing, and equipment is being installed in the Pro-Cathedral for the operation of the bell automatically. Part of the gear has been manufactured by our own engineers, but we are awaiting delivery of a particular item from a specalist firm in this type of equipment.

The range of topics on which one might speak in connection with broadcasting programmes is almost unlimited, but I think I have already given sufficient indication of the alertness of this service and of its ambition and zeal in the peculiarly complicated task which it has to do, in conditions which fall short of its requirements. I therefore content myself by mentioning simply the improving quality of the drama broadcasts, the growth of exchange programmes with other countries, the employment of the microphone for health propaganda and the valuable pioneer work done in the religious field for the sick and infirm.

In concluding my statement, I wish to thank the broadcasting staff again this year for their zeal, enterprise and unremitting attention in accommodation conditions which are anything but satisfactory. I also wish to put on record my appreciation of the time so generously given to their task by the statutory Broadcasting Advisory Committee and to thank them most cordially for their valuable assistance in shaping policy in broadcasting affairs.

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. I had hoped to have got an answer to a question on the Order Paper to-day, but, unfortunately, the answers will not be available until 3 o'clock, so that I cannot make the claim which I had hoped to make. It is really a bookkeeping claim that has been made from year to year ever since a Cumann na nGaedheal Minister for Finance indicated that the moneys accruing from customs duties on imported wireless sets would always be earmarked to meet the expenditure of the radio. It has always been a matter of controversy from year to year between the broadcasting section and the Department of Finance. Naturally enough, the Department, in their wisdom, shall we say, want to keep down expenses, while the broadcasting section of the Post Office wants to get as much money as possible for broadcasting. Even as it is, in the Book of Estimates, the dice is loaded against the broadcast ing department because the statement of expenditure set out does not give a really fair picture. It charges against broadcasting the Departments which give service to broadcasting, but does not give any indication of the services which broadcasting gives to these other Departments. That is very important and would represent a considerable sum of money, and, if it were taken into consideration, the two sides of the account in the Estimate would, I think, balance out. It is not necessary for me to mention figures because they are set out in the Estimate and are pretty straightforward.

I am glad that the orchestra is being sent around the country and is getting such a tremendous response from different parts of the country. It was a great success when it went to the City of Waterford, to Maynooth College and to Cork, and when it went to Limerick the other day. There, this morning, they are giving a concert to some 1,700 children, which is very promising. One of the charges made against the broadcasting authorities when we were in power was that we were engaging foreign artistes, but we have to engage foreign artistes until we have brought our own people to such a standard of efficiency and perfect production that they can take their place in a first-class orchestra. The best way to bring them on undoubtedly is to encourage a taste in the younger people. At one stage, the people in the musical trade used to say that Ireland cared only about Hottentot music. I think that situation has completely changed, because, whenever there is anything of a first-class musical kind being produced, there is actually blackmarketing in tickets for the particular theatre, which shows a very considerable change has taken place in the musical taste of the country.

That is natural enough because any of us who have met older people who lived in Dublin since the 1840's and 1850's will know that the tradition of taste in music in Ireland was always extremely high and that the very best of European productions always came to Dublin where they met a very critical audience, so that really we are recovering the natural taste which the country had formerly. It looks as if we are going to progress and not merely to be appreciative of good productions but to develop a very high standard of production for ourselves. If one looks at the history of culture, one finds that the best culture comes out of the small countries. Good art and good culture have never been mass-produced, and have never come out of crowded industrial areas. They have come from countries like Greece, and even from cities in Italy and so on, and there is no reason why we should be discouraged about our cultural development in the future. The radio is, perhaps, of all the organisations in the State, the organisation which is most effective in conveying the culture of the country, and therefore of encouraging it. Undoubtedly, the schools do a considerable amount, and, especially in the matter of the encouragement which the Fianna Fáil Minister for Education gave to the vocational schools in developing cultural activities, a great deal has been done, but a great deal yet remains to be done from the point of view of the responsibility which attaches to the broadcasting department. We have a tradition which is a damnosa hæreditas to live down because we were inflicted with a kind of iconoclasm, the product of British materialism, largely, where everything was on a commercial basis, and also a slave spirit. People felt that we are only a second-rate people, only a province, not able to produce good stuff. It is very remarkable that, in reaction against all that feeling, the two things that concerned Thomas Davis most were, first, freedom of the country and, secondly, the development of the culture of the country, which is the very substance of nationality. For that reason, there is no limit to what we should aim at in the development of our cultural activities. It arises perhaps more upon this Estimate than upon any other because of the instrument that exists in broadcasting.

It is a curious thing that these activities, so discredited by cynics and very clever people who think they know everything and have a materialist outlook, are now regarded as the things which will produce the best financial dividends. There is hardly a country in Europe which is not going all out to develop cultural activities in order to earn dollars. That is the thing which, I am sorry to say, the present Government have missed out on. I do not blame the broadcasting department for it, but I do blame the Government, because of their attitude towards the whole development of tourist traffic on a high level, trying to get the very best type of tourist of a more or less permanent kind, such as those who go to places like Salzburg. Salzburg is only a small town in a country which is very depressed. Yet it has always been able to maintain the one standard because of its cultural attractions.

If the time should come when people will not come to Ireland merely to get the good food or merely to get an atmosphere of freedom which is not in existence in some other countries, we may have lost our opportunities of having a permanent cultural tourist attraction. The Government have already lost the opportunity of three seasons because they have not gone all out to spend money on something which will bring money in again and which create a market for farmers as well as everybody else, a market which is the best type of market, because you do not have to send your products out of the country; they are consumed on the spot.

That has not much connection with wireless broadcasting.

I notice that, in spite of what the Minister for Finance said discouraging the activities of broadcasting with reference to the short-wave station, they are going ahead with their plans. I say that the short-wave station has a direct bearing upon the question of bringing tourists to the country, and that wireless, being an instrument for the encouragement of culture, gives us the opportunity of discussing all these things at one time. I do not want to go outside the limits of the Vote, but I feel that these matters have a very definite bearing on each other.

The members of the orchestra are not established civil servants. For that reason they have not any opportunities of getting pensions. We had the idea of having some sort of contributory scheme by which, when they became superannuated, it would not be a matter of terror to them through having to live without prospects. For that reason I would suggest that the Department would again take up that idea and try to develop a scheme for giving pensions to the members of the orchestra when they retire. They are a class of people who are more at the mercy of the public than any other and have not any means of defence or of protecting themselves.

The younger people who show very distinct and definite talent in the beginning, at the Feis Ceoil and so on, go into other professions and avocations, become clerks and one thing and another, because there has been no future for musicians in this country. One of the tests of a country is its professions with regard to cultural activities and it is an indication of the civilisation of a country if there is a high standard of professions of the kind of musicians, actors and people of that sort. It would be well worth while encouraging that class in order that people who are really gifted in that way would have the opportunity of living a decent life in the country and would not have to clear out of the country.

I asked a question about studio development and I was disappointed in the answer. I know perfectly well that it is absurd to have the radio studio in the Post Office, who want the premises. A place was purchased on the Stillorgan Road a good while ago and is vacant. I cannot imagine why it should not be developed. An architect and a radio engineer were sent abroad in our time to examine stations in Northern Europe and they came back with their plans. Probably these things have been forgotten about by now. Surely, within the last two years, there was time to do something to plan studios and to provide proper studios so that the people in the radio service would get a chance of developing along proper lines. In Northern Europe and elsewhere such studios are not merely rooms for the use of radio staff. They are centres of interest which people can visit. They have gardens around them. There is land around the house on Stillorgan Road, and the place could easily be developed with great benefit to the studio and as an extra attraction to the city surroundings.

Complaints are made from time to time about the political news being biased. Unfortunately, when one is in the House one does not get an opportunity of listening in. Complaints have been made about that matter and also about their being occasionally overweighted in the direction of giving too much time to Ministers and not giving statements made by members of the Opposition, especially the Leaders of the Opposition.

There was the same thing when there were different Ministers.

The same thing did not occur.

Exactly the same.

That is quite untrue. I have heard very strong complaints about the matter. Our policy when we were in power was to give the statements made by Ministers in so far as they indicated in an objective and non-political way the direction in which policy was going. That was for the benefit of the people; it was not used for controversial purposes. It is a delicate line and it is one which should be followed with great care. It is deserving of severe criticism when that line is gone over, because it is very much to the injury of the broadcasting station, as whole sections of the people will cease to listen in if they think it is being used as an instrument by one Party against another.

On the whole, the broadcasting people are to be congratulated on the new wavelengths. I can say from my own experience of listening in that, so far as I can judge, there is a tremendous improvement on what was there before. I know, from the negotiations that were going on when I was in the Department, the tremendous difficulties they were up against in order to get a share of the wavelengths. I think we can claim that it was due to the principle established by our negotiators that such a fair deal was done in the matter of wavelengths. The principle was established that all participating countries should get some share of the wavelengths before any of the larger countries would get the lion's share.

I am glad to note that some attention is being given to interference. The interference difficulty is going to increase according as the Electricity Supply Board develops throughout this country. Undoubtedly, there is considerable interference from electrical machines. I feel it may become almost a matter of law and we may have to insist that wherever there are electrical machines certain protective devices will have to be introduced so as to ensure that these machines will not interfere with the broadcasting.

I do not know whether the Department has a map of the outside world with indicators as to where the reception is good and where it is not good. There have been complaints at all times from London that they cannot hear our radio very well. There are other places on the Continent similarly affected. In Northern Europe and in Scotland the reception is far better. This is a matter which should be watched very carefully. I think the Sweepstakes people have a map of that sort. I do not know whether the broadcasting people are able to find a remedy by knowing where the weak points are or whether there is any way in which they can ensure that our people in London who are very anxious to listen in to our radio will be able to do so. They say it is extremely difficult to get the Irish station.

There is one thing I am very sorry about and that is that the "Listen and Learn" Irish lessons were not continued. They were tried more or less as an experiment in the beginning and they proved to be a most astonishing success. The way in which one could judge the number of people who listened to the lessons in Irish was easily gauged, because the book was published at the same time and in the first sales there were 30,000 copies sold and that was maintained for a considerable time—for two or three years I think it was going—and in the end there was a very solid body of people keen on learning from the radio in conjunction with the book. There were at least 5,000 people, and that was very good. I know cases where people started learning Irish on the radio and they ended up by getting the gold Fáinne.

It is a great pity the lessons were not continued. It so happened that there was an expert there. Not merely was he a good Irish speaker, but he had the real technique of teaching. He seems to have discovered on the radio a way in which he could get his lessons home very effectively. His methods have been imitated both with regard to Welsh and Scottish Gaelic on the British Broadcasting Corporation. I strongly advocate that these lessons would be taken up again and given as they were given before. Of course, there is no use in entering now into the details of what stage it should be taken up at, or how it should be followed up, but I think whoever is to give the lessons should follow more or less on the progressive lines of the series that were so valuable and useful in the past.

I raised the question on the Education Estimate of the desirability of using radio in the schools. It could be made a very valuable asset with regard to getting a uniform standard of Irish taught in the schools. I urge the Department to press on the Department of Education how desirable it would be to take up this idea and put it into operation—the idea of teaching through the medium of the radio in all our schools.

The Taoiseach, in the course of one of his addresses, talked of Ireland as interpreting Europe to America and America to Europe. It is not a bad headline for the broadcasting station to adopt. I think a great deal can be done on the level of propaganda from the Irish point of view. Now that the short-wave station is not being dropped, now that you are continuing it, it could well be used for that purpose. Other countries, although there is considerable interference on short waves and although some people say that ultimately the short wave is not going to remain as a very effective instrument, are increasing their short-wave station strength and are spending more money on their short-wave stations mainly with the object of having them there for defence purposes later on. In the same way, I suggest it would be a matter of very great importance that we should adopt the same course and that we should have the same instrument of defence in this country.

Let me take one example. It would be of tremendous interest to Irish people all over the world if they could have heard of all the activities, the speeches and the progress in connection with the visit of our President to Rome, Bobbio and Paris, in which places he was received as a Head of State ought to be received, with all the honours of a sovereign country. Accounts of that sort would be of immense interest to the Irish race in America and elsewhere. I feel that more might have been done in that connection. I have heard complaints that the President's visit to Paris and the activities connected therewith were not given perhaps as much publicity as they should have been given. If records had been taken there, they would be of great historic value.

I end on the note of emphasising the importance of the Government's taking up an attitude that the radio is not merely a plaything or something which we have to have because of the nuisance value of certain people, in that if we do not give it there will be a row about it, but that it is one of our greatest instruments for maintaining the high standard of Ireland's reputation all over the world and also for the purpose of defence in the future.

Ba mhaith liom traoslú don Aire agus comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis i dtaobh an tslí in ar ghlac sé leis an gcomhairle a tugadh dó sa Tigh seo anuraidh. 'Sé mo thuairim go bhfuil ard-mholadh tuilte aige de bhárr an méid ama a tugadh le haghaidh an nuacht a léamh i nGaeilge do leathnú agus do mhéadú. Tá moladh tuilte aige freisin, mar gur chlaoi sé leis an bplean a bhí ann chun an stáisiuin nua le gearr-bhanna do choimeád.

I think everybody must appreciate that the task of a Minister dealing with wireless broadcasting services is not easy. One has only to sit in this House and listen to the criticism directed from all sides to realise that the Minister has to keep a weather eye on perhaps three separate and distinct fronts. Deputies and others will very properly urge on him that he should strain after a fairly high cultural level in the programmes broadcast. If the Minister accedes too rapidly to a protest from that quarter he will find that there is a large and vocal body of public opinion which desires programmes of a more popular nature and then, perhaps, on the third front, he will have Deputies and others urging on him the necessity for using the radio as a vehicle of propaganda to assist in the drive for the attainment of the national objectives which still remain to be achieved — the ending of Partition and the revival of the language. Therefore, viewing the matter quite objectively, it is easy for anybody who looks at the matter reasonably to have a good deal of sympathy with the Minister, because I do not think his task, nor that of any other Minister similarly placed, is easy. He has to find a plan and strike a happy mean in these matters and constantly pursue the idea of better programmes from these three different points of view.

There are two matters to which I thought the Minister would refer in his opening remarks and, as he did not do so, I hope he will cover them in some measure when he is replying — the question of television and the question of the new premises in Stillorgan to which I do not think the Minister referred. The view seems to be held by people associated with radio in other countries that the future lies with television—that there is a big future commercially, artistically and, from the entertainment point of view, in the broadcasting of televised programmes. I do not know whether it is premature to urge that the Minister's Department and the Radio Éireann authorities should at this stage be giving some serious consideration to the possibilities of the development of television in this country. I understand that one gentleman who is associated with the television department of the British Broadcasting Corporation, and who visited this country recently, pointed out that, due to the natural configuration of this country, we are rather ideally suited for the broadcasting of television programmes. A station situated in the centre of the country would be able to cater for the whole country, with the exception of those centres of population situated on the western slopes of the mountains round our coast. I am open to correction on this, but I understand that physical obstacles, such as mountains, are a bar to the broadcasting of televised programmes and that, in so far as the country has often been described as a bowl, it would not be too difficult to get a range from the centre of the bowl which would cover every point inside the rim. Perhaps the Minister may have some information in that respect, and perhaps the Department have been giving some consideration to the development of television. I should be glad if the Minister would deal with that matter in his concluding statement.

Last year, on this Estimate, several Deputies mentioned the question of the unsuitability of the premises at present available to the broadcasting staff and broadcasting authorities. I do not suppose there is any other national station in the world broadcasting from a building which was not designed for the purpose of broadcasting or that has not, at least, been much more radically adapted for the purposes than has the General Post Office. I am aware that, in his opening statement, the Minister referred to a further expansion of the premises available in the General Post Office. I submit, however, that while an extension will relieve the congestion which exists there at the moment — I have had experience of it myself, from the point of view of broadcasting and rehearsals — it is, at the same time, only a makeshift solution. The proper development and functioning of the station will be difficult until such time as premises functionally adapted or specially built are available to the broadcasting authorities.

Another matter on which I thought the Minister might have given us his viewpoint is the question of sponsored programmes. There are two diametrically opposed schools of thought in relation to that matter. Many of us have still open minds on it and are open to conviction. I think the House would have been interested in an expression of opinion from the Minister as to the lines along which his mind is working. Frankly, I would be a little apprehensive about any undue or unrestricted development of the idea of selling air time to programme sponsors for the purpose of commercial broadcasting. On the other hand, given certain safeguards and under certain conditions, it might be worth the Minister's while to examine the position generally in order to find out whether the idea is worth developing. I would be averse to selling air time to programme sponsors and giving them a free hand to broadcast whatever type of programme commended itself to them. It did occur to me that where commercial concerns are particularly anxious to get time on the air from Radio Éireann, it might be possible to come to some arrangement with them under which time would be sold to them provided they undertook that 15 or 20 per cent. of that time would be devoted to broadcasting in the Irish language. It would be a soul-satisfying thought for some of us to think of some of these people, who, while themselves not opposed to the idea of the revival of Irish, are nevertheless somewhat indifferent to its resuscitation, financing the revival of the language in order to procure broadcasting time from Radio Éireann.

That would be the way to make them refuse it.

I do not think they would refuse it at all. It has been pointed out to me on many occasions that these people are very anxious to obtain time on the air for the purpose of boosting their wares. If they got half an hour and the condition was made that five minutes of that time must be spent in broadcasting in Irish, I think they would be quite prepared to abide by that condition. I commend the suggestion to the Minister for his examination.

One of the difficulties facing both the Minister and Radio Éireann is the problem of ascertaining exactly what type of programme is desired by listeners. I would commend to the Minister's attention the development of greater facilities for listener research. That is carried out extensively by the British Broadcasting Corporation and it has played an important part in the shaping of their programmes. I understand that listener research in Radio Éireann is rather haphazard at the moment. It is not done in any scientific way or to any considerable extent. One of the points upon which there is agreement, without any research, is that the best listening times are the post-tea hours on Sunday night. I think it is a pity that Radio Éireann departed from the Sunday night plays because, if there is one field of broadcasting in which Radio Éireann has shown itself supreme, it is in their handling of drama broadcasts. I think it is a pity they have stopped. I know that the view is also held that it is a great pity Question Time was discontinued. I urge on the Minister reconsideration of the Sunday night programme and the replacing in that programme of the Sunday night plays. They were undoubtedly very popular.

One of the things which tends to arrest the development of Radio Éireann and to a certain extent deprives it of life and vitality is the fact that, in the approach to programmes, there is too much of a metropolitan bias, too much of the Dublin angle only. That Dublin bias and that metropolitan angle cannot be eliminated so long as broadcasters are compelled to come to Dublin in order to broadcast or, in some few instances, go to Cork. I do not know whether it would be very costly, but I would suggest to the Minister that he should examine the position to see whether or not it might be feasible to have regional broadcasts from cities like Galway, Waterford, Limerick, or Dundalk, where there is a tradition of drama and acting. I think it that way the Dublin, or metropolitan bias, would be eliminated to some extent.

While I know there has been hard, unremitting and conscientious work done by those responsible for the framing and development of the programmes, I believe that in so far as programmes are concerned, Radio Éireann is in a rut. I suggest to the Minister that that is a Dublin rut. It might be no harm to try the method I have suggested of having regional broadcasts in order to get Radio Éireann out of that rut.

Reference was made on this Estimate last year to the broadcasting of the Irish and English news. I think the Minister deserves congratulation inasmuch as he acceded to portion of the request made to him then by extending the time devoted to the broadcasting of news in Irish. I would urge on him one further consideration, namely, that he should split the Irish and English news times. I think it is ridiculous to have the news broadcast first in Irish and immediately afterwards have practically the same news bulletin broadcast in English. I think it would be preferable if the Minister gave the Irish news at 9 o'clock and the English news at 10 o'clock. I think they should be split. I do not know whether there are any insuperable administrative or technical difficulties about that. Perhaps the Minister would deal with it when he is replying.

Some of us had hoped that by this time the short-wave station would be completed, and that the Minister would be able to report a little more finality about it than he has. However, I do not think that any of us can blame the Minister as being the person responsible for the delay. I think it was a big achievement to have saved the short-wave station, in view of the fact that there was on this side of the House a fairly strong view that it was not worthy of retention.

With regard to the use of the radio for anti-Partition propaganda purposes, I thought that we might have heard something from the Minister in that respect. I know that he has not a free hand in the matter inasmuch as international conventions tie his hands in certain respects. I know that it is difficult to strike a balance that will be effective and that too much propaganda, even of the permissible type, might defeat its own end because it might stop people listening. It might also involve us in counter propaganda from more powerful stations with longer wavelengths. I know these are all the arguments against it but I do feel, nevertheless, that more use could be made of the radio for laying the facts about Partition and Britain's responsibility therefor, before the ordinary listening public in Britain. I agree that it is difficult to know just how far you can usefully go and where you must stop, but I would suggest to the Minister that more use should be made of the radio in that respect than has been made heretofore.

Finally, I should like to say that I think it would be ungracious for Deputies not to refer to the manner in which the Minister received representations from Deputies on any questions in regard to which Deputies wanted to submit their views or opinions to him. I must say of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that he is pre-eminent amongst Ministers for being democratically sensitive to the opinions of Deputies on all sides of the House.

I should like also to congratulate the Minister on his handling of broadcasting, which is a very difficult matter. Perhaps I might also say at this juncture that I think his predecessor in office did an excellent job in respect to the same work. I desire especially to refer to the musical side of broadcasting. I think every year that passes marks an improvement in the quality and tone of the radio orchestra and, in that connection, I consider that the policy of bringing over guest conductors has borne very good fruit, as certain farseeing people felt it was bound to do. I trust that policy will be continued in future. We have in the Phoenix Hall an excellent little building for the purposes it serves, but, unfortunately, it is not large enough. I should like to see the orchestra having at its disposal a hall where the people could book seats when they wish. There is a system at present by which they write in and get tickets. I am sure that is very admirably managed, but it is a very inconvenient way for the general public. I am sure many other people would go if they could subscribe in the same way as to any other form of concert. I know that is a factor that keeps many people such as myself away. If I have not a ticket, I am not sure that I can get one in time and, therefore, I do not go. I am sure the same applies to many other people. In that connection, I should like to say that one of the outstanding needs of Dublin is a big concert hall and probably the radio authorities are the people to provide that. Without a suitable hall of that kind music cannot flourish. The orchestra requires a suitable place in which to perform. It also requires the financial support, and, indeed, the artistic support, of the general public. When one comes to quartettes, trios and chamber music generally, one finds that we have no proper building for such performances. I hope that lack of facilities will be remedied in the near future and perhaps it could best be done in connection with broadcasting.

There has been a great deal of talk about short-wave propaganda and matters of that kind. I think the world is very sick of propaganda. News, straightforwardly put out, is quite a different thing, and I should dislike very much to see our radio being consciously used for propaganda purposes. I believe that the moment people become conscious that broadcasts are of a propaganda character, these broadcasts cease to be effective. I think our finest propaganda is provided by the things which we do best which are not in themselves intended as propaganda. A few moments ago, whilst Deputy Little was speaking, the thought occurred to me that one of our very finest artistic and cultural assets, if I might put it that way, the Abbey Theatre, was not started to impress foreigners or outsiders, or was not conceived in any way as a form of propaganda. It was started to entertain the Irish people, and out of that grew one of the finest modern theatres in the world. I think something like that may happen with regard to music. It will happen if it comes through our effort to entertain ourselves. Thus we shall be building up critical faculties which will not come about as a conscious effort to impress outsiders.

From time to time we have heard the question of the radio in schools debated. I think it is a great pity that we cannot start a school broadcasting service. I know it would be very expensive, difficult and so on, but I think a tremendous lot of good could result to our schoolchildren if we had such a service. That would apply especially in the case of rural schools. The children attending them have not the advantages that children in big centres of population have. I think it would be a good thing if the children in the rural schools could be brought in touch with fine minds through the medium of the radio. In my opinion, only good could result from that. Those children have not the opportunity of getting much cultural enlightenment except from their teachers, and so I think such a service would be very good for them.

I should like to say that, except in a very limited way, I personally do not approve of sponsored programmes. I think that the function of broadcasting, to describe it very loosely, is to entertain and educate the public. The people who pay for sponsored programmes wish to advertise. They are really not interested in entertainment or in education. They merely wish to advertise. You will, perhaps, get a certain amount of entertainment from the programmes, but not I think any real education. Broadcasting cannot be all education. I would not like to see it that, but still I think if we increase the time given to sponsored programmes we may find them inevitably pushing their way in and taking time — of course, they pay for their time — that I think should be used more for educational purposes. I should not like to see that happen. We charge a licence fee and out of the sums so received we should pay for the services given to the listeners. If we need anything beyond that, then I think the taxpayers at large should pay for it and not have a large amount of time taken up with sponsored programmes. I think that the sponsored programmes that are done at the moment are very good of their sort. You get a lot of gramophone records and other types of music, but still I think they do not reflect any great credit on our broadcasting service generally. They are not bad and I am not advocating their abolition in any way, but I do not think they ought to be extended to any large extent.

Some Deputy mentioned the feature known as "Question Time". I must say that, in common with a lot of other people, I have been greatly entertained from time to time by "Question Time". I do not know whether it is due to nervousness on the part of people who take part in it, but I must say that at times one's experience as a listener seems to be a dreadful commentary on our standard of education. A person, of course, may get nervous when he has to face the microphone and perhaps that accounts for the fact that when a question is asked it is not answered correctly. I do want to say that at times it certainly appears to me that it reflects no very great credit on our educational system.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I think the Minister is doing very well in a difficult field, and that the broadcasting people are also doing very well. They have not got big funds at their disposal, and it is perhaps difficult for them to compete with some of the big broadcasting people in other countries. I think that, if we stick to producing the best, if we try to entertain our people and at the same time educate them along good lines — if we give them what one might call high-minded entertainment — it will bring its own return. I should like to see the orchestra encouraged in every way. I think it has done very good work. I agree with Deputy Little in this, that I would like to see a superannuation scheme brought in for the benefit of musicians. We all know that, at the best of times, the musical life is a very precarious one. Therefore, I think we should do what we can to enable those people to have something for themselves in their old age.

The statement which the Minister put before the House, when introducing the Estimate, was noncontroversial. The vast bulk of it dealt with the Minister's approach to his responsibilities with regard to broadcasting generally and with the policy of the Department, and with that we cannot be in disagreement. I should like to take this opportunity of joining with those who have congratulated him and his Department on being able to prove the value of broadcasting, and all that is associated with it, from the educational point of view. I say that because, obviously, they have succeeded in educating the Minister for Finance to this extent that he sees the short-wave station is, in fact, necessary and essential. Deputies can throw their minds back to the references which the Minister for Finance made to this short-wave station when introducing his first Budget. It was to be slashed out of existence. One remembers, too, the jokes and the criticism that were levelled at the predecessor of the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Little, when he announced the establishment of the short-wave station. We had, too, the present Minister for Agriculture, who then sat on this side of the House, ridiculing it in no uncertain terms. From that point of view the Department itself can claim to have a certain educational value, since it has succeeded in bringing those two gentlemen in the Cabinet to agree that the short-wave station is necessary, and also to agree to provide the necessary expenditure to have it put on a proper and firm basis. We have, therefore, a general acceptance of the view that the short-wave station is of immense value to the nation.

The Minister mentioned that the number of licence holders has now reached something like 288,000. I suggest to the Minister that the House and the country might like to know to what extent radio listening is developing in places other than Dublin and Cork, where probably the bulk of the listeners were up to recently. It would be a good thing to know to what extent radio listening is developing in other parts of the country. As time goes on, the radio is becoming part of the lives of our people, and particularly in the country areas it is an amenity which cannot be overvalued. Therefore, I suggest that the Minister at some time might tell us to what extent radio listening is developing outside the city and urban areas.

On previous occasions on this Estimate I mentioned the interference caused by electrical machinery and generating stations. I am glad to hear that my complaint has been taken up to such an extent that there are now special officers appointed to try to bring some relief to those whose reception is interfered with. The Minister mentioned that they had now, in consultation with the trade, been able to devise an instrument which he referred to as a suppressor which the Department could supply at cost or on charge, provided they can get the agreement of the owner of the plant. I suggest to the Minister that he should take steps to make the installation of these suppressors in plant which is interfering with listening compulsory; that it should not be a case of having a number of complaints, detecting the cause of the trouble, and then saying to the person responsible: "If you put in this suppressor, we will supply it at a nominal price." The person might say: "Not at all, I am not interested." The Minister should realise that he has a very heavy responsibility in regard to this matter and that he should seek powers, if he has not got them already, to make the installation of these suppressors compulsory. After all, the revenue of the Department can be seriously affected if, in certain areas, there is interference to such an extent that listening becomes impossible. The people in such an area might say: "The best thing we can do is to stop paying our licence fee and get rid of our set."

The Minister has given us full and comprehensive information about the agreement come to with regard to the wavelengths. We all know that, because of the present position in Western and Eastern Europe, there does not appear to be any means of getting people to honour the wavelengths which they are given. In recent months particularly there has been a lot of interference, and a lot of changes made even by our own station. I am wondering whether the Minister would consider the suggestion that when the Department know that certain unauthorised changes are being made by other people and interference is caused thereby, Radio Éireann should advise the people, say at the news time, as to the wavelengths on which they would hear best. In the last six months particularly a lot of people have had to turn their dials in order to find the station, as they could not find it where they usually got it.

Both Deputy Lehane and Deputy Dockrell referred to sponsored programmes. Deputy Lehane thought the sponsored programmes should have a condition attaching to them that there should be a certain amount of educational matter broadcast, particularly with reference to Irish. Deputy Dockrell seems to be against the whole idea of sponsored programmes, mainly on the ground that, in his opinion, they were not of the highest standard. We have to look at this matter from the point of view of how it affects the station. It is true that when a tariff was put on the import of radio parts there was a definite promise given that the revenue accruing would be used exclusively for the benefit of broadcasting. We know that that has never been carried out. According to the Minister, sponsored programmes bring in 25 per cent. of the revenue of the station. The licence fees bring in £181,000 and the sponsored programmes £47,000. If we abandon the idea of sponsored programmes, we will have to find 25 per cent. of the revenue in some other way. Some bright person might suggest that the annual licence fee should be increased from 12/6 to £1, but that would be an imposition that I do not think many of us would want to see. I understand that a sponsored programme is under very rigid control, that it has to be practically all entertainment, and that the reference which the firm broadcasting the programme can make to what it is advertising is limited almost to the name of the concern and a description of its products.

Tastes and opinions differ. There are some sponsored programmes at lunch time. These people have to try to appeal to the public to induce them to buy their products. That is why they advertise in this form. They may think that a greater number of people will listen to their programme if the entertainment they are giving suits the taste of the bulk of the listeners. I am sure they get their fan mail and also some criticism, just as the station does when people like or do not like a particular programme.

There is another aspect of it and it has to do with policy. This matter of sponsored programmes has been considered over a long number of years. One has to be careful that the radio station is not used to advertise a commodity which will interfere with a locally-produced article. We would not give sponsored time to an outside concern to sell something manufactured outside the country in competition with something manufactured here.

By and large, I do not think there is any grave criticism. The only criticism I have heard really is that the people who have to buy the time think that they are charged far too much for it and would like to see it cheaper, but nobody here is suggesting that.

Deputy Lehane had—I will not say a grievance — but a criticism in that he would have liked to see something in the Minister's statement about the adoption of television. I think that the Department is very wise in leaving their approach to television for some time. Television is in its infancy; television may change considerably in a very short space of time and in any event television is only an adjunct to the wireless. We have the essentials in our broadcasting. We have entertainment, education and news from it. Television is something for which we can wait for a little while longer. It has not reached the stage when it can be commercially developed in this country because the number of people here who could afford television sets is still very limited. Unless Deputy Lehane thinks that when he is mentioned over the radio as having made some particularly important pronouncement it would be to his advantage if the people saw him at the same time, I cannot see any other advantage at the moment. He mentioned that he had talked to some individual from the British television organisation who at a glance saw that this country was suitable for it. It is not that easy. If it were so easy with one station in the centre of Ireland to televise to the whole country, surely it would be as easy with three or four stations in Britain to televise to England, Wales and Scotland. There are quite an amount of technical difficulties and technical developments. If one compares television developments in Britain with television developments in the United States one finds that there are two distinct lines of approach and two distinct lines of development. There are one or two people in this country, maybe half a dozen, who may be able under certain conditions to receive television given out from Wales and I do not know if the Minister will bring in some measure to make the people who have television sets pay for a different licence whether we are televising or not. It is not a problem at the moment and I personally feel that the Department is to be congratulated for not rushing into this thing without seeing where they are heading.

Generally speaking, all of us in this House, and I suppose in the other House too, will be contacted from time to time about our programmes, and I must say that the general opinion to-day is that the standard of our programmes, including some of our sponsored programmes, is as good and as high as the people want. There may be difference of opinion as to the type of music, talks or plays which should be given, but nobody can ever say that he would hope to please everybody all the time, and I think it is only fair to say that most of the people, if not all the people, are being pleased a good deal of the time. We can afford to turn off something if we do not like it and take the things which we like.

I do not know if the Minister is going to indicate now whether he will give consideration to what I consider the most important point I have to make, that is, making it compulsory for people to add suppressors to plant where such plant is within the knowledge of his officials causing interference to reception.

Cork people have a great grievance against the Minister because there were 2,740 hours of broadcasting from Radio Éireann during 1949 and only 13 hours were from the Cork studio. I think that is a pretty good demonstration of the Dublin mentality. There is always the feeling that Dublin is Ireland, and I think that the Minister should see that broadcasting is not concentrated in Dublin as it is.

I feel that we have not made the use of broadcasting which is desirable for the country. We should have more talks on social and economic problems —and we might add financial problems—by people who are looked upon as authorities on these subjects. There is also a great need for talks on civics and true citizenship. I would prefer to see broadcasting used for that than for sponsored programmes which take up so much time on the air telling us how to have our clothes economically cleaned, the delicious nature of certain sausages and the value of certain foods and custards. Deputy Briscoe stated that we are getting £47,000 annually for sponsored programmes, but that should not be the guiding principle at all.

A suitable time for people in the country to listen in as well as the people in the towns would be from 10.30 to 11. People in the country who are busy in the summer evenings and into the nights would have time to sit down then and listen to broadcasts on matters of importance.

The one thing that we need in this country to-day is the establishment of an enlightened public opinion. Public opinion such as I should like to see in this country is dead and that is mainly due to the type of propaganda we hear over the radio and from the films. One of the means of countering that is our broadcasting and I would appeal to the Minister to take notice of that point because, when any matter of serious importance to the country is raised, even persons who have the greatest authority for making statements, men and women of standing, are criticised and sneered at because we have not an enlightened public opinion, and I would suggest that our broadcasting should be used along those lines rather than for sponsored programmes.

It is very seldom that I have time to listen in, but I would like to listen in from 10.30 to 11 when we have the sponsored programmes of the Hospitals Trust. That is a thing to which I would like to listen occasionally but not every night, and it happens every night due to the fact that we are paid a good price for the time from 10.30 to 11 o'clock.

There are many things which could be put on to educate our people without talking about sponsored programmes from Hospitals Trust night after night for seven days of the week.

Since we are spending millions on agricultural development, is there anything more reasonable than broadcasts dealing with these important projects, to convey to the agricultural community what is necessary, from people with authority to speak on agricultural subjects and the development of our land? We are now faced with financial problems which very few people can master and understand and there is no reason why there should not be broadcasts on these problems, to tell people about them. I would impress on the Minister the value of giving broadcasts on these subjects. I know very well that the case can be made as to who is going to pay or, as Deputy Briscoe said, how we are to find elsewhere the £47,000 we get from the sponsored programmes. If we are to follow that materialistic attitude of life, broadcasting is very far from what it should be, if that is the mentality of the Department at the present time.

I could endorse a good deal of what Deputy Dockrell said about the need for concert halls, but the main fact to reckon with is this — and the Deputy was asking a pertinent question — how many wireless sets there are in the rural areas. I know that in some villages and towns you will see some sets, but in far remote parts of the country where people have no other entertainment or means of getting it and have no sets installed, the provision of cheap radio for those with a small average income in those rural areas would be of tremendous advantage. Knowing the Minister's outlook on that point, I do not think it necessary to go into the matter further.

I was rather disappointed at the Minister's opening statement this morning. For some time past he has been discussing the establishment of a proper station in Cork. At present, as the Minister and many Deputies know, the broadcasting station in Cork is in what was once the women's gaol. As regards location, the height at which it is might be good for broadcasting purposes, but it is not convenient to the city and I believe the facilities within the building are far from adequate. I understand that for some time past there have been negotiations for a new broadcasting site. I believe there is to be a new municipal school of music and that space and facilities will be provided in that building for broadcasting. That has been long overdue.

As soon as that need is met, I feel that it will serve a useful purpose by making broadcasting more varied generally and more acceptable to the public. About two years ago I advocated the broadcasting of an alternative programme from Cork. That would go a long way to meet many of the criticisms of Radio Éireann. As Deputy Briscoe said, you cannot please all the people all the time and I would like to endorse his remarks that Radio Éireann has been making great strides towards pleasing as many people as possible most of the time. Deputy Hickey has dealt with the broadcasting of serious subjects in the field of education, agriculture, finance and social matters. That is very desirable. The usual experience of people in a house where there is only one wireless set is that there are differences of opinion as to the programmes which should be turned on. I think that applies generally throughout the country. By providing an alternative programme from Cork, you would satisfy the people more, as light variety could be broadcast from one station, while a broadcast on a serious subject was being made from another station.

Deputy Hickey referred to the proportion of hours given to broadcasting from the Cork and Dublin stations. Those figures would hardly justify the existence of a station in Cork at all. There is no doubt that a second station is necessary. Cork is the centre of the south of the country. The population of Cork and Cork County is possibly as big as that of the Dublin metropolitan area. Apart from that, Cork is more convenient to such big centres as Limerick and Waterford than Dublin. As a result of the centralisation of programmes, most of the time given to broadcasts is being cornered by artistes in the immediate vicinity of Dublin. There would be far greater variety of talent available if the second station were procured in Cork. I am told that the fees to artistes are hardly sufficient to justify an artiste travelling a long distance to Dublin from places like Cork, Limerick and Waterford. If the same fees were paid to artistes from Waterford and Limerick to go to Cork, there would be far more variety of personnel and material for broadcasting purposes.

Deputy Hickey gave the figures for 1939, as between Cork and Dublin. He said Cork had 13 hours and Dublin 2,746. Some time ago, Deputy P.D. Lehane asked the Minister a question which ranged back as far as 1946 and the total hours of broadcasting for the four years 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949. The total was 10,476 hours, of which only 82 came from the Cork station. That is entirely unfair. If Cork deserves only 82 hours out of a total of 10,476, there seems to be no justification for the station in Cork. No one will try to sustain an argument that Cork should not have a station and if it is a station at all it should get its due share, instead of .8 of 1 per cent. of the broadcast hours.

The Minister has intimated, privately or publicly, that he hopes that the plants for providing a proper station in Cork will take shape soon. I would urge on him to make all possible haste. The people of Cork and the South generally deserve better treatment, to make their talent available to the public and to get whatever recompense there is through Radio Éireann, instead of the whole market being cornered for musical and acting ability through the Dublin station.

Many Deputies have referred to interference. The Minister in his statement said that there was a scheme whereby the experts in the trade were co-operating with the experts in Radio Éireann to provide some antidote to interference. Cork, as the Minister knows, is situated in rather a hollow, and recently I have been receiving several complaints from Cork people as to the amount of interference to which their listening has been subjected in recent months. The interference has been attributed to the expanding use of electricity in industry, and I urge on the Minister that a survey should be carried out, in places where there are heavy concentrations of industry, to see whether a device could not be installed in order to curb, with all possible speed, this interference which people are experiencing. I have even heard people threatening to refuse to pay their next wireless licence fee, and it is hard to blame them when they pay a fee of 12/6 a year and experience nothing but noise and blurs on their sets.

With regard to the programmes, I have an open mind on the question of sponsored programmes. I realise that these programmes, providing almost £47,000, constitute a very lucrative form of entertainment for the Minister. I have often listened to these programmes and I must say that the standard of entertainment given is very high indeed. It is true that in most cases they are not live broadcasts, but the mere fact that these firms who provide sponsored programmes try to make them as entertaining as possible sets a good standard, from the point of view of the listening public. Since I became a Deputy, I have not had the same opportunities of listening to the radio as I had previously. I was a fairly keen student of the radio, but I can say that, recently and for some years past, our radio programmes compare very favourably with those provided by stations abroad from all points of view. I can say without fear of contradiction that the time devoted to sport is very reasonable and adequate in all the circumstances and that the standard set by our commentators is as high as, and possibly higher than, the standard of radio sports commentators in any part of the world at present. I have listened to broadcasts of games under all codes and, generally speaking, we have every reason to be perfectly satisfied with our radio sports commentators.

The Minister referred to the innovation of a special sports review every Friday night. This is proving highly popular amongst sports fans of all descriptions. The pity of it is that the time is so short that the commentators have to rush what they have to say in order to get it all in. The time allotted is something less than an hour and I suggest that the Minister might consider extending it to a full hour at least, in order to give the commentators a reasonable chance of getting through their scripts. Sometimes, it is almost impossible to follow what they have to say because, through no fault of their own, but because they have so much material and so much sport to cover, they must of necessity rush through them.

Some two years ago, I made reference to the broadcasting of the news in Irish. One of the greatest problems in the revival of Irish is the fact that we have so many dialects. Recently, we have got down to a uniform method of writing the language and I think that we might consider trying to find, through the wireless, some uniform method of speaking the language as well. The average Irish speaker from the South finds tremendous difficulty in understanding the news in Irish when it is broadcast by a commentator in the Northern dialect and the Minister's aim should be to find a mean between the North and South. The people of the West will naturally claim that the Western dialect is that mean, but, even if it is, I would urge the Minister to see whether it would not be possible, in the general interest of the advancement of the language and of those who listen to these broadcasts, to encourage a more general and uniform method of speaking the language.

With regard to the remainder of the programmes, the Director of Radio Éireann has generally kept a fairly even balance as between all kinds of entertainment. The plays on Sunday nights are proving a very popular form of entertainment and the special features of variety recently introduced are also proving highly popular. The only thing I would ask the Minister to do in this connection is not to allow the broadcasts of any particular feature to continue over too long a period. When a feature has been on for a period of months, it would be a good idea to stop it for a short period and then reintroduce it, because having it on night after night over a whole year means that people eventually begin to tire, whereas, if it is stopped when interest in it is fairly high and resumed at a later stage, not only is an incentive provided for people to look forward to it, but an opportunity is given to other forms of variety entertainment and features to establish themselves in the interim.

Finally, I ask the Minister, in the interests of fair play, to make sure that Cork, as a broadcasting station, gets its fair share of broadcasting hours. I hope that next year I will not have the same complaint to make as this year, and that the provision of suitable broadcasting facilities in Cork will not still be a matter for the future.

Deputy Lynch has borne out what I mentioned last year or the year before, that this House does not form a very good council for considering broadcasting generally. Deputies, as a body, are bad listeners, not so much because they are unwilling to listen, but because, as a body, they have very little time for listening to broadcasting and spend very little of their time in their own homes. That is rather a disadvantage, because this House is the only general assembly of the community which gets an opportunity of discussing broadcasting and making suggestions to the Minister. From time to time, various people are consulted by the broadcasting authorities and their views ascertained, but I do not think there is anything in the nature of a representative council of the people to consider broadcasting generally. This House, as I say, is the only such assembly, and Deputies have very little opportunity of listening to broadcasting, and it would be no harm if a representative consultative council were established to advise the Minister in regard to broadcasting programmes. There does not seem to be any reason why it should not be possible to constitute a council or committee representative of the various types of listeners, who would express views on broadcasting and make constructive suggestions to the Minister or to the director of broadcasting.

Most of the Deputies who have spoken dwelt on the necessity for utilising radio for the purpose of furthering the case for national reunification. That is particularly important in reference to the short-wave station. I am in complete agreement with those Deputies who have suggested that propaganda clearly recognisable as such is absolutely useless. We must present our case as general information, as news, or in some way that would be more acceptable than mere propaganda because people have become so tired of propaganda issued by various nations and Governments that their reaction is altogether against it.

There is one work of propaganda which could be done on behalf of this country without its being too obvious that it is purely for propaganda purposes. The people of America, for example, would like to hear our national songs and music. It has been suggested that the late John Count McCormack was one of the greatest propagandists on behalf of the Irish nation of his time. That may be an exaggeration but it is substantially true that he did convey the Irish message far and wide throughout the world.

There is a great field for the dissemination of information in regard to this country. There are people in the United States who still believe that the Irish Republic is a place where people are, in the main, illiterate, where the houses are tumbled-down thatched cabins, where there are no factories or industries of any kind. A radio programme, giving a true picture of what has been achieved in the industrial and agricultural development, in science, art and every branch of national life, would do a great deal to raise the international prestige of this country. Even for the benefit of our own people, there has not been sufficient broadcasts in regard to work of national development.

There is no reason why we should not have fairly frequent broadcasts of programmes describing the various large development works, such as the electricity generating plant at Portarlington, the Shannon scheme, the Liffey development scheme and other new and old industrial projects. These would show our own people, in the first place, that we are a progressive, moderately well-off nation, and, in the second place, would indicate to the people of other countries the work that is being done by this free and independent nation. It would be good propaganda in advancing the cause of national reunification.

I am very much in agreement with much that was said by Deputy Hickey as to the need for educational programmes. In that regard, again, I am inclined to think that it would have to be disguised as entertainment. Most people listen to the wireless at the end of the day when they are tired and want entertainment, whether high-brow or low-brow, amusing or otherwise. In the matter of educational broadcasts there is nothing more likely to secure a hearing than the broadcasting of arguments and debates on important subjects. Most people like to hear a good argument. They like to hear a person putting forward a case and somebody else completely annihilating that case. The case for better citizenship, better methods in agriculture or industry, better social conditions or even financial reforms could be argued by, say, two fairly able persons with opposite points of view. I would like to hear broadcast a debate on the subject: what exactly is money, who creates it, who limits or decides the amount that is to be put into circulation, what it costs in the way of interest. I would like to hear debates on various subjects, such as: why do our young people crowd into the city and desert the rural areas. These are all questions which could be fairly hotly debated before the microphone for the benefit of listeners throughout the country. They would be listened to, perhaps, with more interest than would be given to a carefully prepared lecture.

I have been astonished at the most controversial subjects that have been discussed over the British Broadcasting Corporation system, such as the existing cold war, the atomic bomb, and various subjects of that kind. These matters are frankly and freely discussed over the British broadcasting system. Here, however, in this country we are afraid to discuss any questions of public interest for fear that we might hurt somebody's feelings, or offend some political section of the community. I think that whole attitude ought to be changed. We ought to be frank and free in discussing national problems, no matter how controversial or contentious they may be. In my opinion, that is the only way in which to educate the public in regard to social and national questions and economic and financial matters.

The ordinary listener likes a good live argument, not something carefully prepared by civil servants. He wants something with a punch in it. I think that is what Radio Éireann should seek to give in the matter of its educational broadcasts. People are not going to listen to normal, dull, dry lectures, no matter how informative they may be, and no matter how educational they may seem. People like to hear the other side of things, the other man's case. They like to hear somebody hitting back at any argument put forward. For that reason I plead now for controversial debates over the wireless.

I do not quite agree with Deputy Lynch when he says that the Sunday night plays are very satisfactory. I think that most of the plays broadcast on Sunday nights by Radio Éireann are absolutely atrocious and should not be tolerated at all. They are morbid, melancholy and disgusting in many cases. I do not listen to them very often, but I had an opportunity of listening to a play broadcast some months ago. It represented the Hungarian peasantry and their lives and conditions. It was a shocking type of play to put over on any unoffending people. It represented a simple Catholic family murdering a benefactor who arrived there for the purpose of helping them out, and who proved to be a member of the family who had been away. I think plays of that kind are not fit for broadcasting. If you cannot find anything more edifying than that, you should stop broadcasting plays altogether.

There ought to be in existence quite a number of plays which are capable of being put over on the wireless. Surely there are not only edifying and improving plays and dramas, but there are also, I am sure, many items that would be light and amusing and which the people would appreciate. I think there should be a wider opportunity for local dramatic societies. They should be encouraged to broadcast. It may be they have not all the technical knowledge or training that is required for the radio. It is a well-known fact that we have through the provinces many local dramatic societies which are first-class in their own way. With a little instruction I believe some of them would be quite capable of entertaining listeners over the radio. In addition, it would be an incentive to the urban and rural dramatic societies to work harder. They would do so if they had the assurance of being permitted to broadcast eventually if they reach a certain standard. Those plays would have a definite local interest inasmuch as they would be broadcast from one centre one week and another centre another week. It would give the people of each area an interest in those plays and that would have a definite educational value.

I hope the suggestions I have put forward will be regarded by the Minister as constructive; they are intended to be, at any rate. I hope that in the future we will get the type of educational broadcast I have suggested — that is, a lively debate on various important social and economic questions in which people should be taking a much greater interest than they are. I hope the Minister will put his foot down on the unworthy types of plays which I have mentioned and which have been so frequently broadcast by Radio Éireann.

If and when television becomes a factor here, it will be very important from a national point of view inasmuch as, I assume, for a number of years our Irish television centre will be the only one available to the majority of our people. In that way, Radio Éireann will have an advantage over the broadcasting stations of other countries. They will be able, perhaps, to get a better audience and they will have a sort of monopoly in this country which they have not at the present time. I hope they will take full advantage of it to give the people the type of programme to which they are entitled.

It is a pity that Deputies have not more opportunities of studying broadcasting programmes. We are all so much away from home that we can only listen in occasionally, perhaps on a Sunday night or towards the end of the week. The Minister should seriously consider the suggestion I have made — that a representative committee or council should be set up to consider the programmes that are to be broadcast. It should be a council representative not of one particular section of the community, not of one particular class, but broadly representative of listeners generally. I think the Minister would derive from such a council much useful information and advice.

I thoroughly agree with the last speaker in his remarks in respect of the type of plays broadcast by Radio Éireann. Certainly, one would want to be pretty strong to put up with them sometimes. My principal reason for speaking in this debate is to draw particular attention to the type of play that has been resurrected and that is often given repeat performances. Forty years ago, when I was younger than I am now, the play I have in mind was responsible for riots in this country. It was considered then to be a libel on the Irish people. It is a libel on them to-day, too. It is a libel on their morals, their character, their mode of living and their religion. I refer to the play The Playboy of the Western World. On several occasions it has been broadcast by Radio Éireann and produced in our theatres. It is a shame that that play should be honoured by being presented before the public in this modern age. I often wonder what educated young English boys and girls who see or listen to that play must think of our people and of our country. Will they ask if that play is typical of the Irish as they were 40 or 50 years ago or if it is typical of their country or of them as they are to-day, their present mode of living, their lives and their religion? In that play, sons who kill their fathers are depicted as heroes and held out as heroes throughout the country. It is an extremely sad state of affairs, now that we are trying to put our country on the map, so to speak, in the matter of culture and of bringing our nation forward, that that type of play should be resurrected. If by any words of mine, in this House or elsewhere, I can bring to the notice of the public the fact that this type of play should be withdrawn from publicity, I shall do so. It is not by any means the only play that gives offence to the Irish people. There are several others also but The Playboy of the Western World is the play about which I feel particularly strongly.

I consider that the latest type of what is supposed to be entertainment broadcast to us is typical of the British music hall. It is not the fault of the artistes. They try to do their best with the material available. I must say that there are some very fine artistes and players in Radio Éireann, but the type of script they have to cope with is no credit to the people who organise or who produce that programme. I recently met the superioress of a very high educational school in this country. She said that permission was given to the community to listen in to a play on Radio Éireann. Unfortunately, on the date in question the play which was broadcast was The Playboy of the Western World. The community was horrified that such a programme was allowed to be broadcast from Radio Éireann. I hope that, if the Minister has any influence with the people who organise those programmes, he will see that in future they are not permitted to be broadcast. I am perfectly well aware of the fact that different types of people listen to the radio. Not all of them want ceilí bands or symphony music, but they want plain; clean, honest entertainment and honest Irish humour — not the sort of stuff that is being broadcast at present.

Deputy Cogan referred to a play by Tchekov, which was recently broadcast and which was not at all inspiring or illuminating so far as the listeners were concerned. There are, of course, people who enjoy that sort of thing, but the effect on young people or on people whose minds are not fully formed, would be very bad. If my remarks are taken heed of, I hope that they will do some good.

I notice that a periodical by the name of Radio Review is published. It deals exclusively with letters from people who are clamouring in support of foreign dances and so forth. That periodical is getting very great support in this country. I do not think it is good, but at the same time I do not think the Minister has any control over it. It is typically British in its outlook and it is very similar to the British Broadcasting Corporation Radio Times. I do not think it should be encouraged.

Most of the points I intended to raise were dealt with very effectively and capably by other speakers. In the first place, I want to congratulate the Minister on the improvements that have been made in the programmes during the past 12 months. About a year or 18 months ago I drew the attention of the Minister to the fact that in this agricultural country the number of broadcasts with an agricultural bias or dealing with agricultural subjects was almost infinitesimal. Since then, I admit, some little effort — and it is, indeed, a very small effort — has been made by the broadcasting authorities, with the result that now and again a programme dealing with agriculture in some form or another is broadcast. Nevertheless, I am afraid that the broadcasting authorities, living too much in Dublin, seem to forget that this is an agricultural country. It is a country that depends for its existence on the produce of the first six inches of our soil, but the broadcasting authorities are ignoring that, to a considerable degree, in their selection of programmes.

Deputy Hickey and Deputy Lynch, I think, referred to the boycott of Cork artistes. I do not want to dwell too much on that subject. It may be said that the mild suggestions which are put forward by Cork people will probably be described by the broadcasting authorities as provincial ignorance. Actually, all we want is justice and fair play for the artistes in Cork, and at the same time to provide the listening public with decent programmes. I think it can be said that Cork is indeed the second city in the State, and that we can regard it as the Athens of the Republic. It is a city of culture. There is more culture, talent and ability to be found in Cork than there is to be found anywhere else in this country. The trouble is that the broadcasting authorities seem to have a definite bias against Cork artistes and Cork programmes. In the Radio Review, to which the last speaker referred, a general vote was held as to the most popular programme that was broadcast from Radio Éireann, and a certain programme from Cork was voted the most popular. Just, however, because it came from Cork, even though it was the most popular programme, it was immediately cut out and never allowed to be broadcast again. It is hardly necessary for me to say that that type of procedure is not approved of in Cork. Even though the broadcasting authorities may regard the persuasive requests which we are making from Cork as provincial ignorance, viewing the matter from an insular and from a metropolitan point of view, we are satisfied that we have something to offer to the listening public in Ireland and that we are not getting a fair crack of the whip. Officials of the broadcasting station who visited Cork admitted publicly that the talent presented there was far superior to that of some of the broadcasters employed by the station in Dublin. Deputy Hickey has told the House of the number of hours devoted to broadcasting from Cork — the number is something in the neighbourhood of 13 hours against some thousands of hours from Dublin. I do not want to labour that point, but I want the Minister to consider my remarks on this subject seriously, and to consider the possibilities of regular broadcasts from Cork.

When we were discussing this Estimate last year, suggestions were made from all sides of the House — from Fianna Fáil, from Clann na Poblachta and from myself — that the time the news is read is wrong. The principal news of the night in Irish is read at five minutes to ten. The principal news of the night in English is read at 10.10 p.m. These are extraordinary hours to broadcast the news service. I think Deputy Bartley suggested last year that the news in Irish should be read after the news in English and that the news in Irish should not be a re-hash of the 6 o'clock news. Nothing, so far, has been done in that respect. I suggest that the news in English should be read at 10 o'clock at night and that the news in Irish should be read at 10.15, or vice versa. The present position of the five minutes to ten and the ten minutes past ten news is ridiculous. What happens is that most people do not know when it is five to ten. They know when it is 10 o'clock because they hear some bells ringing round about them. I think some reasonably specific time should be agreed upon for these particular news items. A good deal has been said about educational programmes. Everybody wants education according to his own particular kink. I want to point out that one cannot force the radio down anybody's throat. There are certain very insincere advocates of education along certain lines who want to force something on the listening public to which they themselves have not the slightest intention of listening. There are people who make long speeches here about the news in Irish; they are the very people who switch over to the B.B.C. news at 10 o'clock. There is a good deal of hypocrisy like that with regard to radio programmes. If one does not want to force education down people's throats, then one must dish it up in an attractive form. One must present them with a programme to which they will listen just for the sake of the programme. If you dish up a programme to suit a particular group of cranks the result will be that the general run of listeners will switch over immediately to boogie-woogie on the B.B.C.

Would the Deputy suggest it should be given to them at home instead?

I suggest educational programmes should be presented in an attractive form which will induce the people to listen to them. I warn the Minister against the danger of pandering to the fads of any particular group of cranks. These cranks will not listen to the programmes themselves. What we want is a reasonable programme with an Irish cultural bias, not a programme which will force our people to change from Radio Éireann to the B.B.C. or Radio Luxembourg.

I would like, again, to congratulate the Minister on having considerably improved the programmes in the last year or two. I would press upon him once more the vast amount of talent we have in Cork. Cork is the second city in this State. Last year it got 13 hours out of something like 3,000 hours of broadcasting. I would appeal to the Minister to ensure that in future a fairer distribution will be given and that Cork will get a fair deal having regard to the talent it has available.

Mar gheall ar go gcreidimidne go bhfuil ceist aithbheochainte na teangan níos tábhachtaí ná aon cheist eile, cuirimid an-spéis in obair an Radio. Is féidir a lán úsáide a bhaint as an uirlis sin chun an obair seo a chur chun chinn.

Gídh go bhfuil Radio Éireann ag maíomh as an méid atá déanta acu ar son na Gaeilge, ní dóigh liom go bhféadfaí a rá go bhfuilid níos dúrachtaí ná an stáisiún sa Bhreatain Bhig ó thaobh na Breathnaise.

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil sé de dhualgas ar an radio an chéad áit a thabhairt do thradisiún na tíre agus suim na ndaoine óga a mhúscailt i stair, ní hamháin i stáir náisiúnta ach i stair áitiúil chomh maith. Sílim go bhféadfaí i bhfad níos mó cur síos a dhéanamh ar an radio ar chuairteanna go dtí áiteanna stáiriúla—an Museum, cuir i gcás, agus ceachtanna staire a mhúineadh ar bhealach simplí. D'fhéadfaí cur síos ar bheata Éireannaigh, idir mhna agus fir, agus, ins an tslí sin, ómós na ndaoine óga d'fhorbairt don tradisiún náisiúnta atá acu agus grádh a ghríosadh ina gcroí do gach rud a bhaineas le cultúr na hÉireann. Ins an tslí sin, d'fhéadfaimis an tradisiún sin a choinneáil beo agus féachaint chuige go leanfaidh na daoine óga agus an ghlún atá ag éirigh aníos an tradisiún sin agus go mbeimis dílis do na cuspóirí agus na haidhmeanna sin mar a bhí a sinnsear rómpu.

Do chuir Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge a lán moltaí chuig an Taoiseach agus, b'fhéidir, chuig an Aire Poist agus Telegrafa, ag iarraidh go gcuirfí go mór leis an méid Gaeilge a craoltar. Is maith liom a rá gur dóigh liom gur ndearna a lán maitheasa nuair a cinneadh ar an gclár nuaíochta i nGaeilge. Tá blas níos fearr ag na bollscairí agus is binn liom bheith ag éisteacht le cuid acu a bhíonn ag cur síos ar chonas atá an scéal i gConamara, agus mar sin, in ionad bheith ag glaoch go righin, mar a dubhrathas anseo, leis na bulletins agus fógraí oifigiúla, agus ag iarraidh leagan Gaeilge a chur orthu. Dá bhféadfaí, mar a dubhrathas, am éicint ar fad a thabhairt dóibh, b'fhéidir go mbeadh saoirse níos fearr acu agus dá mb'fhéidir rud éicint mar an "Newsreel" ins an B.B.C. a chur ar fáil, dob fhéidir leo teacht ansin agus labhairt go nádúrtha agus le níos mó saoirse faoi chúrasí nuaíochta an lae nó na seachtaine.

Ní hé sin le rá nach mbíonn daoine ag gearán faoi chruinneas na cainnte go minic ar an radio. Daoine go bhfuil árd-mheas agam ar a gcuid tuairmí, bíonn siad ag fáil locht ar fhóghraíocht agus cruinneas cainnte cuid de na cainnteoirí Gaeilge ar an radio. Is deacair, is dócha, daoine fháil a bhfuil guthanna maithe, ceolmhara acu, ach dob'fhiú taighde a dhéanamh féachaint chuig go bhféadfadh, fiú amháin, muintir Chorcaighe an cainnteoir ó Thír Chonaill a thuiscint nó muintir Tír Chonaill a bheith i ndon an cainnteoir ó Cho. Chiarraighe a thuiscint. Níl aon amhras ná go bhfeadfaí é sin a dhéanamh, ach, faoi láthair, sílim gur cheart dom a rá —agus ní abróinn é muna mbeadh cúis leis agus da mba rud é nach bhfuilim ag éisteacht leis an ngearán le blianta fada — go bhfuil a lán daoine ann nach bhfuil ró-shásta leis na sreathanna cainte ins an nGaeilge, nach bhfuil an oiread cruinnis sa chaint agus ba chóir a bheith, agus is dóigh liom, gídh nach bhfuilim ar aon intinn ar fad leis an ngearán, go mb'fhéidir go dtagann sé cruaidh ar a lán foghluimtheoirí cuid den chaint a thuiscint.

Nuair bhíonn drámaí nó sreathanna cainte ar siúl, sílim go mbraitheann an rud go mór ar an duine a dhéanann an cur síos. Má mhíníonn sé an scéal ar dtús agus má abrann sé cúpla focal roimh ré ionas go bhféadfaí a thuiscint cad tá le teacht, bheadh níos mó suime agus na foghluimtheoirí ann agus tuigfidh siad cnámha an scéil. Dá dtuigeadh siad na "headlines," mar a déarfá, bheadh sé i bhfad níos fusa dóibh an scéal ar fad a thuiscint. Nílmid ag smaoineamh, nuair támuid ag caint ar obair an radío tré Ghaeilge, ar na daoine a bhfuil togha agus rogha na Gaeilge acu cheana ach ar na daoine atá ag foghluim na Gaeilge. Is mór an damáiste don teanga má cheapann na foghluimtheoirí nach bhfuil siad ag fáil cúnamh ón taobh eile.

Sa chúrsa sin, "Listen and Learn" rinneadh iarracht tuille deis a thabhairt do lucht éisteachta, ach de ghnáth, tá faitíos orm nach bhfaigheann siad an deis agus an cúnamh ba chóir a thabhairt dóibh.

Tá an Chomhdháil an-úsáideach mar liaison idir an Rialtas agus na dreamannaí a bhfuil aithbheochaint na Gaeilge mar chuspóir acu. Mhol siad go gcaithfí ní h-amháin an Ghaeilge a leathnú amach ar an radío agus labhairt na Gaeilge d'fheabhsú agus an caighdeán d'árdú chomh maith agus is féidir, ach mhol siad, freisin, go gcuirfí roinnt mhaith Gaeilge isteach, diaidh ar ndiaidh, ins na gnáthchláracha Béarla. Ba cheart go mbeadh na fógraí oifigiúla i nGaeilge chomh minic agus is féidir. Ba cheart go mbeadh na gnáth-fhógraí ag na bolscairí i nGaeilge, nó cuid díobh, ar aon chuma.

As I have been saying in Irish, we should take example from the Welsh people, the pride they have in their national language, the fact that they were able to bring the Irish to shame on so many occasions by showing the position the national language occupies in Wales as compared with the weak position of the Irish language here. For that reason, those of us who are interested in the revival of the Irish language are naturally anxious that every possible effort should be made to utilise such a powerful instrument as the radio is for popular education and popular amusement, to strengthen the Irish language, in the first place, to keep it alive in the districts where it is already spoken; secondly, to encourage the young people to practise their Irish; and, thirdly, to show that the Irish language can be used as a medium of intercourse and of culture just as well as English. As regards interpreting the United States to Europe and Europe to the United States, I think I might perhaps be more interested in the second aim than in the first because, of course, the struggle in the effort to revive the Irish language is mainly directed to holding back the flood of Anglicisation and Americanisation that threatens to overwhelm the building up of a native culture which will be able to stand in future against the impact of these foreign influences. Somebody said that European culture was decaying and dying. It was pointed out that even if it were, it still exudes a rather fragrant odour which has a distinct appeal for those who believe in European traditions and European civilisation. If these go, there is no doubt that the world will be the poorer. I think the radio can play a part, and the Irish nation has a special part to play which the radio can be utilised to express and spread in the world abroad in that connection.

With regard to the question of Irish, I think that we should get away from the position that Irish is just a matter for St. Patrick's Day. We should no longer have the position that those interested in the language are able to point out that it is really only on that particular occasion that the standard which should normally be reached is attained and the attention which should normally be given to it is given in Radio Éireann. I think, if we compare what is being done here with what is being done in the Welsh regional station, we have no reason, even on St. Patrick's Day, to be over-confident or over-exultant as to our progress. There is a great deal that can be done. I think that if the recommendations of Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge received the attention which I hope they will receive from the Minister and the Government, it would be worth while having a special branch within the radio organisation to deal with Irish programmes particularly.

With the limited experience and knowledge of such work as I have myself, and remembering what I have read in regard to this matter, I agree that the acquisition of suitable writers and editors for scripts is a matter of difficulty undoubtedly, and I think the terms must be made attractive. From that point of view, since, as the Minister pointed out, the service is practically paying for itself through licence fees, I think the Government could afford to be somewhat more generous in providing for work, the immediate effect of which may be disappointing but which, like the pioneer work in regard to the Irish language revival, will, please God, have its fruits later on.

Much of the work, for example, that was done in the teaching of Irish in the schools in the early days and of the efforts to teach other subjects through Irish could not have been brought to such a success without the pioneer work and the devotion which no amount of money could recompense— the devotion, the industry and the sacrifices of those interested. While those who devote their time to preparing scripts, writing plays or devising programmes are deserving of consideration, I should like to stress that I think more provision for Irish broadcasts should be made than seems to be made in the list of officers in the Dublin station. The bulk of the money seems to go to the orchestra and the actors. Of course there is a very substantial expenditure on production and editing, but I think that in connection with productions in the Irish language the Minister might consider whether increasing the staff or endeavouring to get more specialists in this work from outside would not be profitable. There is a great deal of research and of preparation involved.

With regard to the question of school programmes, in the long run I think Radio Éireann will have to take the responsibility itself for such programmes, because there will always be educationists who will not agree that you can ordinarily secure the same results from broadcast programmes, in the teaching of ordinary basic subjects, as you will get in the schools where you have the personal supervision, the personal attention and the personal discipline of the teacher to ensure that the pupils on their part give the necessary attention to their work or to ensure that you make the necessary progress.

I think that broadcasts of school programmes through the Irish language in particular would be very useful, but even in other subjects they can provide, as has been shown elsewhere, a very good background for the work of the classroom. If such broadcasts are to be of value to the schools we have to be careful — and this is another difficulty that arises —about getting speakers and commentators who have an excellent knowledge of the subject with which they are dealing — it goes without saying that that is the primary qualification — and who also are excellent from the broad casting point of view. There is very little use, in school programmes or any other kind of programme, in engaging very knowledgeable and well-informed persons to broadcast unless they happen to have that particular gift which seems to be a rather rare gift and when we get a good broadcaster — I do not care whether it is in variety or in any other programme — we should endeavour to hold him if we possibly can. In connection with Irish for example the question of correctness in the speaking of the language, to which I referred to a few moments ago, arises. It is necessary that the standard should be almost perfect, so that no intelligent or well-informed person who has a good knowledge of Irish himself, no native speaker, no educated person, would be able to say that the spoken word was faulty.

I think that applies not merely to grammatical correctness, but to the enunciation, and to the difficulty or ease with which the ordinary listener can follow the speaker. I think it is necessary to have good material, as attractive as possible and prepared in the most suitable way, if we are to get young people to listen. I think it is necessary to have that appeal — the quality of the voice, the correctness of the speech and the diction—because of the fact that, whether we are aware of it or not, these speakers will be taken as the standard speakers of Irish as, in the case of the English language, the chief speakers as British Broadcasting Corporation announcers are taken as the speakers of the best English. We know that they are not. You have only to listen to an Oxford or a Cambridge professor to discover that. Of course, he has perhaps better facility and more freedom, but the fact is that the language of the most highly educated class over there is much easier to follow than that of people who have nothing to boast of in the way of education. In our case I think that, as in ordinary conversation, the best standard ought really to be easy to follow.

The complaint is that it is very difficult to follow some of the broadcasts in the Irish language. I simply say that the complaint is made. I have listened to it for a long time. I realise that it is not always easy, even when one knows that there are complaints, to remedy them. However, the life of the Irish language depends very largely on cultivating the habit of its use. If we get into the habit on the radio of using Irish not only in the specifically Irish programmes, but, as Comhdháil Náisiúnta Gaeilge has suggested, of using it not only in official announcements but in the ordinary announcements on the radio, of trying to bring it into programmes which would ordinarily be regarded as English ones, it would be a great advantage.

I think also, as I have said in Irish, that when there are important productions in Irish as, for example, full-length dramas, or if, as happens on the English radio in the case of a novel or a well-known book, there is a dramatisation of Cré na Cille or some such book, if it were decided to put that in a form in which it could be listened to either as drama or a dialogue to be continued for a period, it would be very valuable to have commentators who would give, for the advantage of listeners, a summary of the general idea or some précis of what was to follow, so that they would feel that they were getting some assistance, something which, if they were unfamiliar with hearing Irish, would enable them to get a hold of what the radio was offering to them.

I always was of opinion that, as part of the radio equipment, there should be a company of trained actors, whether they acted in English or Irish. Naturally, I would like to see them acting in Irish. It was always a feature of Radio Paris in the old days to give a dramatic production of one of the French classics every Saturday evening. In this matter, the radio should cater more for the rural population than for city people who have theatres to go to. The play that might appeal to an audience in the country and that might give them great amusement might not be such an attraction to a Dublin listener because he has other alternatives. There may be people who disagree with me, but I think that the old Abbey plays of Lady Gregory, though dated somewhat, have plenty of humour and plenty of country life in them. There are, of course, other plays, such as Mr. T.C. Murray's, which deal with country life. People prefer, of course, comedies. Judging by some of the remarks that have been made in this discussion, if Radio Éireann, in their anxiety to raise the intellectual level, go in for high tragedy they are, I am afraid, going to meet with a certain amount of criticism. I think we should have actors in both Irish and English. If the same company can work in both languages, well and good. They could also be used in the children's programmes.

As regards children's programmes, I think music ought to play a very prominent part. I am naturally glad, as one who is interested in music, that the symphony orchestra is going ahead. I am glad that it is going down the country. In the old days we used to have the late Colonel Brase giving concerts with the Army band. I think that if that could be extended, and if it became a regular feature here in Dublin, it would be a very good thing. That does not mean that we need exclude Cork or Limerick or any other provincial centre. I see in the Estimate that there is £100 included to meet expenses for travelling to the provinces. The sum mentioned would seem to indicate that, to a large extent, these trips pay for themselves. Even if there is a small loss, particularly since the service is in a rather good position financially, I am sure the Minister will be ready to do everything he can to enable the provincial towns and cities to have an opportunity of hearing the orchestra.

I believe that the radio could do more to encourage young musicians. We had complaints recently at the Feis Ceóil about the standard of the singing. I believe that some of the radio programmes from other countries are responsible for the fault which the adjudicators found in the singing of these young competitors—the nasal intonation in the singing. But there it is, and there again, I think, Radio Éireann ought to do a little more to help those young singers to get proper training. I am sure no Deputy would grudge giving them opportunity or even offering them prizes or scholarships. If we are going to have competitions on the radio or at the Feis Ceóil, would it not be reasonable for the radio, which really is in the position of being the only institution that is capable of dealing with this question of musical education properly, to give prizes or scholarships to enable some of these young artistes to get more training? During the present year, for example, when the anniversary of the Polish composer Chopin was being celebrated, I think the radio might have availed itself more of the opportunities that exist in Dublin for getting young pianists. As this city has a certain reputation for piano teaching, one would imagine that there might have been more Chopin programmes without any loss to those listeners who prefer to listen to something else. These programmes could have been given from 5 to 6 o'clock, or some such time, if it were considered that these young musicians would not be appreciated by the general listening public. In that way they would have been assisted.

Recently we were told by a professor who has come here to teach the violin that he is surprised that more is not being done for instrumentalists. There is no doubt that something more will have to be done either through the academy or the radio if we are going to put our young violinists in the position, when their preliminary training is finished, that they will be able to take their places in the orchestra and acquit themselves as well as foreigners. If we are serious in the idea that it should not be necessary to employ foreigners, we must provide the facilities and the means for the young musicians to be equipped to take their places. It is quite impossible for them to do that in the present circumstances. They have not the means and, as has been pointed out, it is such a very hazardous business devoting one's life to the profession of music that it would be absolutely unreasonable to expect young people, with the present prospects, to borrow money or acquire financial aid in some other way to perfect their musical training.

When the former Minister was there he had an idea that the work of the orchestra might be combined in some way with the work of one of the teaching institutions outside and that the two might work together. In that way, the young students could have opportunities of orchestral work now and again, or a junior orchestra might be formed which would give them these opportunities. In any case, nothing is being done. The Minister might say that it is not the particular responsibility of his Department. But, after all, whatever music is available at present is being provided very largely by the radio. In its own interests, looking at it from the narrowest point of view and leaving out of account the vast importance of giving young musicians of talent, and perhaps of genius, the opportunities they deserve, it is surely the function of the radio to take an immediate interest in seeing that in the years to come, with the standard of public taste gradually improving, we shall have musical performers who are purely Irish and who can compare with and have standards as good as those of musicians elsewhere.

Emigrants are not always pleased with Radio Éireann. As Deputy Little said, in the first place they cannot hear it very often. When they do hear it, if they hear it in the company of English people and if the programme is of the "Round-the-Fire" type, it is possible that the emigrant may be ridiculed for the standard of the Radio Éireann performance as compared with what could be got from the B.B.C. If the emigrant were at home in Cork or somewhere else, he might be quite pleased with Radio Éireann, but his standards possibly have changed. He is in a new environment and a new atmosphere. It has to be remembered that, while we must cater for the rural population to a great extent, we have the city and town listeners also and the emigrants who are living in an entirely different atmosphere. If you want to have propaganda for Ireland, you have to bear in mind that you must offer variety or other programmes that will be listened to. If we are to believe criticisms we have heard here, these people are not likely, perhaps, to listen for patriotic reasons. If what they hear does not please them, they will switch on to some other station.

With regard to the discussions, I have always been of opinion that we should have more of them, as they are very important. It is difficult to have discussions of an objective nature. Since the Irish are reputed to love a fight, it is difficult, if the subject is controversial, to avoid the feeling that we are arguing just for the sake of arguing or of annoying the other side, that it is not solely our purpose to try to get at the truth, which is very often somewhere between what the two disputants put forward.

I think that our people down the country very often suffer from not having the experience of being asked to give their opinion. I think it is a valuable part of the education of men and women to be able to give their opinions in an intelligent and common-sense way when called upon, and, to the extent that the radio enables that to be done, if it infuses a certain amount of entertainment or general interest into the discussions, that will be all to the good. But it is doing good work, I think, if it succeeds in raising the level of discussion and enabling us to discuss difficult questions with objectivity and dignity. In that way you will be able to get further listeners, I believe, outside the country. Our neighbours claim that they are looking for objectivity — we know that in war conditions that is impossible — but whatever standard of objectivity they have succeeded in obtaining or persuading listeners they have obtained, it has secured for them a wide range of listeners on the Continent of Europe. If we want to get outsiders to listen we will also have to try to be reasonably objective. If we want to use the radio as a method of propaganda we must assume for the moment that the person who is listening is either not interested in the subject or is somewhat antagonistic. If we cannot be persuasive and show that we appreciate to some extent his point of view while we do not agree with him we are not likely to have great success.

The educational system has been accused of many things but I do not think it is right to foist responsibility upon it for the deplorable level of answering in some of the Question Time programmes. Whether by accident or otherwise it appears in some cases that the very worst possible candidates for the microphone were selected in certain areas. I think it would be better not to view the Question Time programmes solely as a subject of amusement and laughter as they are viewed but to view them occasionally as a test of observation of the country round about and of information of some value.

I think I have taken up a sufficient amount of time and I pass the ball on to somebody else.

I felt during the course of the debate that it might be no harm if Radio Éireann gave certain lessons in public speaking and had special programmes for Dáil Deputies. Deputy Derrig has discussed the advantages that might be derived from public debate, objectivity, etc., and I think that if it could lead to some brevity it would be useful. If a person has a point to make I cannot understand why he cannot make it without wrapping it round in wool for hours at a time.

Everybody who listened to the debate must have a certain sympathy for the Minister. One Deputy wants one thing and another Deputy wants another. They are perfectly free, but if the Minister were to be guided by the proposals put forward in this debate I think he would have a very difficult job in knowing what exactly was wanted. I am quite certain that Deputies who have spoken here about educational programmes and using the radio for uplift would not like to repeat those recommendations before their own wives and families.

Even in the home there is considerable difference of opinion as to the right programme to listen to. I feel, regarding our main station anyway, that it should bring hot news before the public and that its programmes should be lively, topical and entertaining. That is the chief purpose of the main broadcasting station in a country. If we want to get into the educational field and use the radio as a method of uplift I think we will have to use another station so that those persons who are anxious to be educated and uplifted may tune into it and enjoy such programmes.

The general opinion, I think, regarding Radio Éireann is that it is reasonably good. The lunchtime programme, the Hospitals. Trust programme, the sponsored programmes, are certainly excellent. My great trouble in regard to them is that they annoy me but that is because other people in the house are anxious to hear them. There has been some reference here to plays, T. C. Murray's plays being held up by two Deputies to very substantial criticism. I do not think that very many of their constituents would agree with the expressions they used about such a well-known play. I had the good luck to hear it myself on the radio. I enjoyed it and thought it was excellent although I can of course appreciate that other people may take a different view. Clearly, however, when we have one radio station everybody cannot be pleased all the time and all the Minister can do is to satisfy the majority of listeners. If a particular item is on that a person does not like all he has to do is to switch over to another station.

I had an idea for a considerable time that we might introduce a feature such as "This week in the Dáil" or "To-day in the Dáil." On reflection I would not recommend it. Certainly if we get television I would not like to show this present Assembly discussing a matter of such great public interest——

The present Assembly listening to the Deputy.

I have more listening to me than were listening to some of the other speakers.

On a point of order, is there a quorum?

Notice taken that a quorum was not present: House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

It is much better to have a bigger audience to hear the profound words of wisdom. I am grateful to Deputy Cogan for ensuring that.

Does Deputy Cowan know that he has not got Deputy Cogan as a listener now?

He endured the same ordeal as I did, so he is entitled to be excused. The standard of entertainment and of programmes is high and the artistes and musicians engaged should be paid much better than they are. I know that that point has been made already to the Minister. I recommend that there be a complete review of the scales of payment, so that decent salaries would be paid to those artistes, musicians and others who entertain us from Radio Éireann.

I would support the viewpoint put forward by Deputy Con Lehane and others, that there should be regional broadcasts more frequently, that local talent should be used and that local dramatic societies should be requested to broadcast. That may necessitate more than one station. I do not understand the technical difficulties, but I cannot see why the Cork or Athlone stations cannot be used oftener for the purpose of putting on the air a completely different programme from that put on the air by the Dublin station.

There has been reference to the use of Radio Éireann for propaganda in connection with Partition. I do not know how that is going to help. There has been a considerable amount of propaganda with regard to that matter, but if the purpose of that propaganda were not to organise here in our own part of the country a public consciousness and determination in regard to Partition I think it would be time wasted. If it is used for the purpose of organising our own opinion, organising our own resources and building up a spirit of determination here, then I think it is valuable.

I have noticed a considerable improvement in the last couple of years in Radio Éireann. I think that is conceded by the general public. We need not worry much about what the immigrants think or what visitors or foreigners may think. If the station satisfies our own people, if it makes available to them plays, information, data and entertainment that would not otherwise be available to them, it is doing good work. I sincerely hope that the authorities in Radio Éireann will not take too seriously a number of the suggestions that have been made in this debate, but that they will continue their efforts to improve the station and improve the standard of its programmes. If that improvement continues at the same rate as that at which it was developed during the past few years, there will be very little ground for criticism of the station or of the authorities controlling the station in the future.

Ó thaobh na Gaeilge don Seirbhís seo, ba mhaith liom an tAire a mholadh as ucht na seirbhísí. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil sé ag iarraidh, chomh maith lena daoine a bhíann roimhe, an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn ar an radio chomh maith agus is féidir. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil deacrachtaí ag baint leis an obair sin, acht san am céanna tá feabhas dhá dhéanamh aige. Tá lochtanna beaga le fáil i dtaobh an cruth atá ar Chlár na Gaeilge. Cuirim i gcás: tuige a mbíonn oíche an Domhnaigh fágtha amach, i dtaobh nuacht a thabhairt amach i nGaeilge? Ar ndó is í an oíche is mó sa tseachtain a n-éisteann na daoine leis an radio, go mór mhór ar fud na tíre. Má tá aon dream sa tír thar a chéile a bhaineas buntáiste as an nuaíocht i nGaeilge, is iad na daoine atá sna háiteacha iargúlta. Féach ar na hoileaín. Tá cuid de na hoileaín agus ní bhfaghann na daoine ann páipéar nuaíochta ach amháin uair sa tseachtain. Is cuma fé dhaoine lasmuigh. Má chailleann siad an nuaíocht, ar a laghad beidh an nuáiocht sin le fáil acu maidin lá arna bhárach, ach ní hamhlaidh atá an scéal sna háiteacha iargúlta, agus go mór mhór na hoileáin. Ní fheicim gur ceart oíche amháin sa tseachtain d'fhágáil amach gan an nuaíocht a thabhairt dóibh, go mór mhór nuair a chuimhnaíonn tú nach dtuigeann furmhór na ndaoine sin an nuaíocht i mBéarla. Tá súil agam go dtiúrfar aire don locht sin agus go leighseofar sar i bhfad é.

Níl fhios agam an ceart ach oiread an nuaíocht i mBéarla agus i nGaeilge bheith díreach i ndiaidh a chéile. Tá mé ag ceapadh go mbfearr don Ghaeilige spás áirithe bheith eatarthu. Má tá tú ag cur an-spéis san nuaíocht, agus má tá do chuid Gaeilge lag, fanann tú leis an nuaíocht atá tugtha amach sa teanga is fearr a thuigeann tú. B'fhéidir ar an mbealach eile go bhfuil buntáiste le baint as an dá nuaíocht a bheith i ndiaidh a chéile. B'fhéidir go mbeadh daoine ann gur mhaith leo comórtas a dhéanamh idir an nuaíocht i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla ach, ar chuma ar bith, séard atá mé a mholadh don Aire go ndéanfar iniúchadh ar an taobh sin den scéal. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil an dá thuairim ann agus tá mé ag ligintan scéal anois fé bhráid an Aire.

Maidir leis na canúintí chuala mé duine amháin ar maidin ag cur síos ar na canúintí agus ag fáil locht ar an nuaíocht i ngeall air go mbíonn sé sna trí canúintí. Sé mo thuairim féin nach bhfuil mórán céille ag baint leis an chaint sin. Tuigeann na daoine an chaint, is cuma cén chanúint atá á h-úsáid, má labhrann an nuachtóir amach go réidh soiléir. Ní hé an chanúint atá ag déanamh dochair ach urlabhraíocht na ndaoine. Tá daoine a labhrann ar an radio i mBéarla agus níl siad chomh intuigthe le daoine eile. Baineann an locht sin leis an nGaeilige níos mó ach tuigeann an fear ón Iarthar an fear as Tír Chonaill nó Ciarraidhe má labhrann an fear sin go réidh agus go soiléir, agus má tá an urlabhraíocht go maith aige. Tá sé tugtha fé ndeara ag cuid mhaith éisteoirí gur cuma le cuid de na cainteoirí an Ghaeilge. Bíonn siad anchuramach i dtaobh an Bhéarla agus ar a laghad teastaíonn an cúram céanna ón nGaeilge, agus molaim don Aire gan mórán sontais a chur sa chaint seo i dtaobh na gcanúintí. Sé mo thuairim féin nach bhfuil siad ag déanamh leath an dochair atá curtha n a leith ag daoine. Tiocfaidh caighdeán cainte leis an aimsir díreach mar tá caighdeáin scriobhtha agus litríochta, ag teacht chugainn anois. Ní hé an Béarla céanna a labhartar i dTír Chonaill agus san Iarthar agus tá difríocht arís idir an Béarla san Iarthar agus Béarla an Deiscirt agus beidh sé sin ann i gcónaí agus ní féidir é a ghlanadh amach. Ar nós tír na Fraince, caithfidh caighdeáin a bheith againn agus beidh na caighdeáin sin againn. Maidir le ceist na teangan, is é mo thuairim nach ceart an iomarca béime a ligint ar cheist seo na gcanúintí.

Rinneadh tagairt anseo do na siamsaí ar an radio, idir drámaí agus eile. Ní léirmheastoir mise i dtaobh drámaíocht nó tada dá shórt. Tá cuid mhaith ar an radio nach dtaitnaíonn liom ach taitnaíonn an siamsa céanna le daoine eile agus tá a rogha ag gach duine. Níl mise ag rá go bhfuil mo thuairim níos fearr agus níos eolasaí ná tuairim aon duine eile ach ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an chaint a rinne an Teachta Mrs. Rice i dtaobh cuid de na drámaí. Thagair sí do cheann amháin "Buachaill Bán an Iarthair" nó The Playboy of the Western World. Níl mise ar an tuairim go bhfuil aon dualgas ar lucht Radio Eireann leas anma na ndaoine a chur chun cinn. Fágtar an dualgas sin ag daoine eile. Tá daoine ag cur in aghaidh an dráma sin agus drámaí dá shórt agus seárd atá mise ag dul a rá leis an Aire go bhfuil bunús beag den fhírinne ag baint leis an dráma sin.

Tá sé bunaithe ar rud a thit amach san Iarthar 60 nó 80 blian ó shoin. Thainig fear a bhfuil clú mór air gurbh ainm dó Synge agus chaith sé cuid dá laethanta saoire istigh sna hoileáin agus chuala sé an scéal sin agus chúm sé dráma air. San obair sin, chaith sé an droch-mhasla ar fad ar mhuintir na n-oileáin agus tógann siad, agus tá siad ag tógáil i gcónaí, air gur chuir sé an craiceann sin ar an scéal le droch-mheas ar na daoine seo. Sin iad na daoine anois go bhfuil meas mór orthu, más fíor an chaint a déantar anseo agus ar fud na tíre go minic, an dream is mó go mba cheart meas a bheith againn sa tír seo orthu i ngeall air go bhfuil oidhreacht uasal na Gaeilge acu. Tá sé dona go leor má bhíonn an saghas ruda seo ar an ardán nó san amharclainn. Ní fheiceann ansin é ach na daoine a théann ann ach nuair cuirtear ar an radio é agus cuirtear thar an aer é bíonn siad féin i gceist agus bíonn siad ag rá leo féin: "Féach anois Radio Éireann, dream a bhfuil an-chuid airgid á fháil acu as cánacha na tíre seo."

Ní ceart an droch-mhasla seo a chraobhscaoileadh, ní amháin ar fud Bhaile Atha Cliath, ach ar fud an domhain. Tógann na daoine sin andona é ar Radio Éireann. Táim ag caint thar ceann na ndaoine i mo dháilcheantar féin a bhfuil fhios agam go maith go bhfuil siad ag fáil locht ar an obair sin agus tá súil agam go dtabharfar aird ar na daoine sin. Tá fhios agam go maith gur daoine bochta iad agus go bhfuil siad ina gcónaí in áit iargúlta. Tá fhios agam nach iad sin an dream is mó le rá atá sa tír nó sa dáilcheantar sin, Gaillimh thiar, ach oiread. Tá fhios agam nach iad a thugann an méid airgid is mó do Radio Éireann as ucht ceadúnaisí a cheannach ach, ag an am gcéanna, ba chóir go mbeadh an t-údarás poiblí cúramach i dtaobh droch-mhasla a chaitheamh ar aon líon daoine agus go háirithe daoine sa nGaeltacht.

Tar éis na pointí sin a chur faoi bhráid an Aire ba mhaith liom deireadh a chur le mo chuid cainte fé mar a thosnaigh mé, agus is é sin moladh a thabhairt don Aire as ucht an iarracht atá á dhéanamh aige tré feidhm do bhaint as an radio chun cúis na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn. Tá fhios agam gurb é an rud deiridh a cheadódh sé ná aon gheaitsí den tsórt sin. Tá mé lántsásta go ndéanfaidh sé an scéal a leigheas anois ós rud é go bhfuil an t-eolas aige.

Deputy Cowan, during the course of his remarks, commented upon the various speeches which were made on this Estimate and sympathised with the Minister in respect of all the recommendations made to him. Having done that he proceeded to pile on the agony by making recommendations himself about television and broadcasting services in general. I hope the Minister will let these recommendations in one ear and out the other ear, for some time at least, until we reach the position whereby Deputies will speak only on subjects in which they are particularly interested. Some Deputies make a point of speaking on every Estimate and every item of business that comes before the House.

I want to refer to a subject which I mentioned last year on the discussion of the Estimate for this Department— that is, the number of foreign musicians who have been introduced into the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra. As far as I remember, the Minister gave us a guarantee last year that the number would not be increased. A complaint has recently been made that that guarantee has not been kept. I hope the Minister, when he is replying, will explain the whole position and will assure us that the guarantee which he gave last year has not been broken— that the number of foreigners has not been increased and that, if any new foreigners were introduced into the orchestra, they came simply to replace other foreigners who left.

Last year, also, I protested against the privileged treatment and salary scales accorded to foreign musicians as against our own Irish musicians. The same conditions of employment should be accorded to Irishmen in the orchestra as those accorded to foreigners. I understand, also, that certain privileges are enjoyed by the foreigners for the purpose of encouraging them to come to this country. It was suggested that they were brought here to train our Irish musicians. I hope that, after the number of years they have been here, we have now reached the stage where the position will be reviewed and that the Minister will be able to report upon whether their inclusion in this orchestra and in the Municipal School of Music has been of any advantage to Irish musicians. If he finds that their presence has not been of any great advantage I hope the entire position will be revised.

The time has now arrived when the Minister and his Department should review the decision under which Irish dance bands are not given the opportunity to broadcast from Radio Éireann. The Minister for Finance, in his Budget of last year, and of this year, has greatly impaired the livelihood of professional Irish musicians. The general complaint is that they are not up to the standard of cross-Channel orchestras but I do not agree with that statement at all. For the past three or four years quite a number of English bands have visited this country. When they came first the Irish people dashed to theatres and ballrooms to hear them but in the course of time they became completely disillusioned as to the reputedly greater power of these orchestras compared with Irish orchestras. The preference now is for the sweet rhythm of the smaller Irish dance orchestras. I am not advocating that our dance bands should play bebop or boogie-woogie music. They can render Irish airs very capably and do justice to the composers. If it is found that they are not up to the standard I am sure the post-bag will contain quite a number of complaints from those who are paying for the privilege of listening-in to Radio Éireann. On the other hand, if the broadcasts by these bands should meet with general approval, as I believe they will, I am sure the Minister and his Department will be complimented on them. It is a shame to think that professional musicians are forced to leave this country and take up employment in other broadcasting stations. The future of professional Irish dance musicians at the moment is not very bright. It would be some recompense to them if they saw that one of the Departments of State was interested in their position and especially if it would absorb some of these professionals who may be unemployed.

We have read recently of some of our artistes who have taken up positions in the B.B.C. People have suggested that it is a pity that these artistes could not have been kept at home and their talent utilised for the benefit of this country. I think it would be a great pity if some of our Irish artistes have got to follow those others across the Channel to earn a livelihood that they are deprived of at home. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the decision to prohibit Irish dance orchestras getting an opportunity of broadcasting.

I also am sorry to see that some of the best of our talent is leaving the country in order to get jobs in other radio stations. I feel we should give our artistes a greater opportunity here of developing their talents. They are appreciated very much in other countries. Recently we saw where some of our artistes left to take up positions elsewhere. Of course, it is only natural that they should try to better themselves by going to such places as the B.B.C., but more encouragement should be given to them here so that we could retain them. They would do much to develop our broadcasting.

As regards the dance bands, I agree with what Deputy Fitzpatrick has said. I do not agree very often with the Deputy, but in this instance I do. I believe that dance bands should get an opportunity periodically of broadcasting, and competition in order to produce better talent among our dance bands should be encouraged.

As other speakers have stated, the broadcasts from Radio Éireann have been received with mixed feelings. It is very hard from an entertaining point of view to get a programme that will suit everybody. Judging from some comments that I have heard, even from English broadcasting stations, local talent is very much appreciated. We should develop the local talent side a good deal more. Local talent, if it is reasonably good, appeals very much to the average listener. A person with a good singing voice or some musical ability might feel inclined to say: "I am fairly good at singing or at music and if I can develop my particular taste I might get an opportunity of broadcasting." If local talent of that type were encouraged the programmes would be more varied and entertaining.

As regards the selection of gramophone records, I do not agree on many an occasion with the taste of the selector. I do not get many opportunities of listening to the radio. The hospitals programme was definitely good, but I must say that some of the recent programmes I heard were not up to the usual standard. When I say that I am not casting any reflections on the officers concerned. Again, it is purely a matter of taste and choice. The lady announcer who was dealing with the hospitals programmes seemed to have a personality all her own and the ability to make a selection that was very suitable for the sick people.

Is she a widow?

If I were there possibly my selection might not be all right with somebody else who would be listening to the programme. Possibly there are many who might consider my selection unsuitable. It is really a matter of opinion and it is difficult to make a hard and fast rule.

Other Deputies made suggestions as to what we should have on the radio from time to time. There is one section of our people who could with advantage be included in our broadcasting programmes. I am speaking now of our painters and I feel that if, from time to time, we had some specialist in art who would give a talk, it would be much appreciated by many listeners. That sort of thing would help to encourage our people to have a greater liking for art. If you go to any of the art galleries in the city you will realise that some of our artists are not so very well known and it is hard to get people properly to appreciate their work. I think talks on the radio would result in our people appreciating art much more than they do.

Recently I heard a man discussing the desirability of periodical talks by some historian. The idea is that you should take a town in each county week by week and the history of that town could be referred to. The talk would last for half an hour or an hour. Many people may be well acquainted with Irish history or may be attached to local historical societies and they would appreciate a talk on the radio by some well-known authority on ancient Ireland. It would be interesting if those talks covered various towns or parishes or sections of a county, dwelling on some outstanding historic event. In that way I believe you would encourage a greater love for the history of our country.

I agree with Deputies who suggested a schools programme. That would be of tremendous benefit to our children. In other countries they have programmes for schools and I do not see why the children, particularly in the rural parts of Ireland, should not be given the advantage of listening to topics that are of general educational interest. Those programmes would help the children in the more remote areas to get the type of education that the children attending better schools can acquire. We should regard that aspect much more seriously and do all we can to develop the spreading of education through that channel. Our sports commentaries are done as well as sports commentaries are done anywhere else in the world. I think more time should be given to these commentaries. The present time allowance is not sufficient. I take it the Minister is faced with the problem in that regard of trying to fit in all the programmes.

Several Deputies have commented on the plays broadcast from Radio Éireann. I very seldom have an opportunity of listening to those plays, but I have heard them commented upon by members of my family and by the general public. Generally speaking, the feeling seems to be that we need a lighter type of programme. People are not now so anxious for the solely morbid. They do not care to listen to the heavier types of play. I think Radio Éireann would be well advised to develop a lighter type of entertainment.

Why do you not report the County Dublin cock fights?

When we go down to Rathdown area we will take a script from the Deputy. In one sense I do not think we have a national broadcasting station. A national broadcasting station should be strictly impartial. Some time ago the Leader of the Opposition attended a very historic ceremony in Dublin. Other items of news from all over the country were given over the radio on that occasion but there was no mention of that particular ceremony or the fact that the Leader of the Opposition had attended it.

Perhaps the Deputy did not have an opportunity of listening to the wireless talk.

If the Deputy wants to contribute to this debate, I will sit and listen patiently to him. Many of our men went to a premature grave to make this country a democracy in which there would be, above all else, freedom of speech. I think that impartiality on the national radio station is just as important as freedom of speech. If our country is drifting away from that, then the democracy that we seek to establish will be lost irretrievably. The national radio station is not a purely Government service. Provided nothing is said upon it which might endanger the country, either nationally or internationally, then strict impartiality should be maintained. The Minister has responsibility naturally for ensuring that the country will not be endangered. I am not pleading now for notoriety or publicity for the Leader of the Opposition. I merely mention the matter to show how desirable it is that the broadcasting station should be used as a strictly impartial instrument. I have heard adverse comment made as to the partiality of the broadcasting station towards the inter-Party Government. If that goes on and we continue to drift, as they have drifted——

Under Fianna Fáil.

——at the other side of the Iron Curtain then we shall have the situation here where those who may wish to criticise will find themselves muzzled for all time and only those who praise will be permitted to make their voices heard. The Leader of the Opposition controls the biggest Party here. If he is not accorded the same privilege that members of the Government have, then I hold ours is not a national broadcasting station.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again later.
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